The four most expensive words in the english language.

[galileoreloaded]

"Something must be done."

It's been some time that the gun threads have gone on now, and it's time to start acting like adults.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_07.pdf

Homicide by discharge of firearm is 107th on the list in 2009. Our collective solipsism is forcing us to internalize and fear in our towns and boroughs the tragedy we saw, but in reality, bad things happen to good people. Bad things like cancer, diabetes, HIV, and stroke, and yes 107th on that long list is homicide by firearm.

There are no inherent guarantees to life, no risk that can be avoided 100%. Its just life.

[NYC_SKP]

1. K/R and I'll bet your post has already been alerted upon.

Sanity, people.

Let's find our calm centered place, okay?

K/R

[ellisonz]

117. I have

And it involves progressive gun control reform...and a massive cultural shift.

Furthermore, just because this thread is such a stinker and I hope people find something useful in it:

[ileus]

133. Lot's of people don't like being progressive on the 2A

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

148. Let's be calm, but let's stop lying...

There were 32,163 firearms deaths in the United States in 2011. According to the most recent CDC statistics, that would place firearms deaths as the 13th leading cause of death, right behind liver disease (33,539). And the number has been steadily increasing.

Splitting homicides from suicides is a conscious attempt to be misleading.

[NYC_SKP]

149. Suicides versus homicides: the distinction is of critical importance.

High suicide rates should cause great alarm, possibly more alarm than the homicides, but combining the numbers to give an impression of greater person on person violence is very misleading.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

150. No, it's not...

The proximate cause of death in both cases is a firearm and its easy availability.

[NYC_SKP]

152. Yes, it is. Lumping the numbers together incites more fear of assault.

It's fine to combine them for the purposes of listing firearms related deaths.

It would be wrong and, clearly, dishonest to omit the detail that 2/3 of these are self-inflicted.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think you don't want them to be split, possibly because it makes a stronger case for gun control:

There were 32,163 firearms deaths in the United States in 2011. According to the most recent CDC statistics, that would place firearms deaths as the 13th leading cause of death, right behind liver disease (33,539). And the number has been steadily increasing.

Splitting homicides from suicides is a conscious attempt to be misleading.

I've written elsewhere that I support greater and more universally applied regulation of firearms sales, but I cannot condone fudging numbers.

Maybe the list can include both combined firearms deaths and homicides v suicides listed separately, but hiding the facts is misleading.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

159. A bullet in your fucking skull is a bullet in your fucking skull...

And the fact that it arrived there through someone else's intentional misuse of a firearm or your own intentional misuse of a firearm or unintentional misuse of a firearm is not relevant.

The easy availability of a firearm is the root cause in deaths via BOTH homicide (I'm pissed at you and I have a gun in my hand) and suicide (I'm suffering from severe depression and I have a gun in my hand).

[NYC_SKP]

160. Merging the numbers inhibits the ability to find solutions to the underlying problems.

I can't believe I have to explain this, but knowledge is power, the details matter.

That our ratio of suicide to homicide is 2:1 is of HUGE concern to anyone sincere about finding solutions.

Of course to people who just want to make the numbers look super scary, it's best to hide those details.

I, for one, only recently learned that 2/3 of the deaths quoted over and over are NOT homicides!

Thus, I feel a lot less threatened by others, about 1/3 as threatened.

This truth would, naturally, concern anyone who wants to public to be super fearful of inanimate weapons.

Again, as I've written before, let's create a real AWB, require a national waiting period, and enforce and punish gun crime in a serious manner (for a change).

Let free the pot peddlers and petty thieves and put away people who use guns against others.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

161. Jesus Christ on a Cracker

I just told you what the underlying problem is -- the easy availability of firearms.

But do feel free to blather on...

[graham4anything]

2. Bad things like cancer, diabetes, HIV, and stroke all are looking for cures, as are gun deaths

We can cure 100% of all gun deaths by the hands of private citizens
by taking the gun out of hands of private citizens and leaving them in the hands of
federal/state/local law enforcement

Thanks again, for making a great point.

Like Smokey the NRA bear says
only you can prevent a private citizen from killing someone with a gun

[galileoreloaded]

5. Personally, I think eradicating gluten from our collective diet is more effective at saving

lives but some people like bread and I'm not an authoritarian.

Go figure.

[graham4anything]

16. Who says its one or the other? I like not being able to buy 48 ounce sodas, myself

go figure why anyone would need in a 48 ounce soda in a 90 minute movie.(and then get a refill).
(especially as these days, one cannot be assured that some rightwing extremist won't come into a theatre upsetting my 1st amendment right to my peaceful assembly.)

How about if we all give up guns and 48 ounce sodas that aren't diet sodas?
Seems like a fair exchange, dontchathink?

[galileoreloaded]

20. I think you should give up anything you want. I refer to public health policy.

I don't drink booze or soda, and eat a paleo diet of lean protein and vegetables.

I want to live a very long time, but that is a choice I make.

[graham4anything]

39. We live in a communal society now. We are no longer isolationists. One for all, all for one

and we all pay when someone without insurance gets ill

and we all pay when 26 people in a school die

For all we know, Mr. Martin in Florida would have cured cancer
and the 26 who died, one of them might have cured heart disease
one of them might have cured AIDS
one of them might have cured Alzheimers
and one of the teachers might have been the spark that gave the child who died the inspiration to becoming a doctor, a scientist, or maybe a teacher themselves someday

because of the gun, something that easily can be cured, none of those things will happen

It all begins with a gun.

[dkf]

55. We would save more lives by giving up red meat.

[graham4anything]

59. actually, that has never been proven. Someone killed by a gun/bullet though is a proven death.

It is what people put on top (and the insane amount of toppings on a potato that are important.
Also, one doesn't need a 72 ounce steak.

6 is just fine.
4 is even better.

[dkf]

65. Red meat is blamed for one in 10 early deaths

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9138230/Red-meat-is-blamed-for-one-in-10-early-deaths.html

I doubt gun deaths are that high.

[graham4anything]

74. because people overdo it. BTW- 100% of all gun deaths are linked directly to a gun & bullet

100% of all gun deaths are directly linked and blamed for 100% of those deaths by guns and a bullet.
And 100% of those deaths directly affect X number of people who are members of that family of the departed, who died without being given a choice whether or not to purchase a soda of any size, and whatever they wanted for dinner that night.

And their 1st Amendment right to their free speech and their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness was taken away.
100% of the time.

enough with the excuses the NRA and it's groupies make about guns.
Guns kill directly.
Bullets kill directly.
end of story.

and within the next decade, those who favor the NRA and guns will not recognize America.
Might not be tomorrow, but it will be in the next decade.

It takes a seed a while til it becomes a majestic redwood.
and the seed has now been planted and is growing daily.

[dkf]

103. You honestly think more people are affected by Guns than the bad effects of eating red meat?

I mean the health costs alone are staggering not including the early deaths.

But people will never propose banning it because its too widely eaten. Much easier to ban something only other people want.

[Fumesucker]

111. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever murdered a classroom of first graders with a steak

There is a slight difference between food and deadly weapons.

[dkf]

125. I'm beginning to wonder about that.

Our modification of the food supply just may be what is killing us early. And we don't even have to be hugely unlucky enough to be in the wrong school classroom. If our food is messed up we are all affected.

Red meat didn't used to be quite so bad for us when we had grain fed beef. But we've bastardized the process and changed the entire food chain.

In terms of effectiveness, banning red meat would be more consequential than banning certain models of guns and limiting clip size.

[laundry_queen]

119. LOL. You ARE a hoot. meat = guns. hahahaha.

[dkf]

126. No. Meat > guns in number of early deaths.

You don't agree?

[laundry_queen]

128. No actually I don't.

Please proceed.

[dkf]

168. Spoken like a true red meat lover!

[stevenleser]

169. Our 'favorite' RW troll really threw a doozy out there this time. nt

[laundry_queen]

170. Pretty much! nt

[LanternWaste]

162. Consumption vs over-consumption are two different things.

Consumption of red meat vs over-consumption of red meat are two different things.

I imagine many people are too dogmatic to know the difference...

[Common Sense Party]

151. I'm going to come and take 15% of your pay each year and force you to invest it

in a broadly diversified portfolio of equities, fixed income securities, real estate and commodities.

That way I'll know you will be likely to have a sufficiently large nest egg to pay for your basic living needs in retirement, and you won't become a burden on family members or society.

It's my right--since we're all in a communal society.

[stevenleser]

171. What's your point? That the freedom to not have a nest egg and starve when you retire is great? nt

[Llewlladdwr]

36. Quite the authoritarian thinking there graham4anything.

I find the thought that the size of my beverages should be a matter of public regulation to be absolutely heinous.

I'm a grown man. I don't need you or anyone else to monitor my soda intake.

[graham4anything]

41. If you have no insurance and get ill, then we are the ones who pay for it

name calling solves nothing at all.

but I understand though why the NRA hates Mike "THE GREAT EQUALIZER" Bloomberg.
I fully understand.

[Llewlladdwr]

45. Since I have insurance then,,,

...I can drink as large a soda as I want, correct?

[graham4anything]

53. not in a place regulated by the health department in NYC if its a regular soda

and thankfully, the police in California tonight shot a person with a gun inside another movie theatre.
Good for them.

[Llewlladdwr]

76. Okay you win.

Adult humans should not be allowed to make their own decisions regarding beverage sizes.

I shudder to think of the world you'd have us live in.

[graham4anything]

83. People who live thinking they need a gun to protect them,are in their own prison 24/7/365

If only Mr. Trayvon Martin had a gun, I could easily see he would have needed one to protect himself from the clear and present danger that was after him.
But instead, we should name the coming changes in law after Mr. Martin and the 26 CT vicitims.

The Florida murder by Zimmerman showed everything that needed to be shown about guns and bullet. Everything.

And the NRA wants to put armed Paul Blart Zimmerman's in every school to protect???

I think I will take my chance with federal/state/local law enforcement thank you.

And again, no one is stopping you from buying 3 16 ounce sodas instead of one 48 ounce one.

But a gun and a bullet stops cold, the person who a private citizen shoots. They have no longer any ability to decide what size soda they will drink, or how many.

It really seems quite clear.

How many soda's did an eight year old killed in CT not get to drink in their life?
(or glasses of water?)

All because a private citizen decided to use the LEGAL guns provided him by his mother
legally purchased to do what he did.

And in what world does a NRA leader say the inane things their head has said, all to protect the $$$ and gun sales.

(so more guns can kill more people).

[LanternWaste]

163. We should however, be allowed to practice medicine on any willing participant.

We should however, be allowed to practice medicine on any willing participant.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other, and both idiotic as hell.

[Mojorabbit]

80. I like having the choice to buy or not buy a 48 ounce soda

It amazes me that people would let a politician decide something as mundane as that. I am sure it works for you but it
does not work for me.

[Orrex]

146. Not much evidence that gluten is as specifically lethal as you suggest

But it's very clear that guns are lethal about 30,000 times per year.


Just saying.

[crazyjoe]

8. to be clear, you ARE suggesting we ban guns altogether, right?

That puts to rest the claim that nobody on this site is suggesting such a thing.

[graham4anything]

23. No, just from the streets. Keep yours in your private home(just have a neon sign alerting others

because all gun owners want to advertise the fact they have protection, like those with alarms do.

So make sure you let us know you have one, so we can exercise our right not to enter your home.

You have no reason to have a gun in the street

you can hunt with a bow and arrow, like the Native Americans did
you can sport at shooting ranges, like I do at mini-golf
by entering, paying the game fee, and they give you the gun
(you don't though need a lethal bullet to shoot at ranges

and of course, you may collect, and hang the gun on the wall like those that kill beautiful animals hang their heads on the wall
(after all, collectors don't need bullets to collect their guns.)

So you are free to keep your gun in the home

and let's get stop the NRA poster guy Zimmerman from shooting anything that moves with a skittle coward style like Zimmy did.

Just think, Mr. Martin might have grown up to cure cancer.
And some rightwing bozo shot him just to watch him die, thinking he was part of a Johnny Cash song.

[hack89]

145. And none of those have seen such steady and long term declines in mortality than guns.

just saying.

[Ghost in the Machine]

165. You think guns should only be "in the hands of federal/state/local law enforcement"??

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.
You won't see this data on the US evening news, or hear politicians disseminating this information.
Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.
With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

I left out the sourcing to give YOU something to do... like try to deny, or refute them. Here's you ONE with a link...

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!

http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/switzerland.asp

*I* prefer *not* to be an unarmed SUBJECT... your mileage may vary..

[Trajan]

3. Wow ... So great you put this issue to rest ...

This one thread is going to do it, and everybody will listen to you, and act like adults ....

This is historic ! .... We're done !

*Dusts off his hands and shuffles off, seeking the next big issue to resolve*

[galileoreloaded]

17. I'm a giver.

[yardwork]

4. The U.S. suffers far more violent deaths than any other wealthy nation

Our life expectancy is shorter than that of other wealthy nations. All this is due in large part to deaths by firearms in the U.S.

http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/338451/violence-plays-role-in-shorter-us-life-expectancy

WASHINGTON — The United States suffers far more violent deaths than any other wealthy nation, due in part to the widespread possession of firearms and the practice of storing them at home in a place that is often unlocked, a report released amid a fierce debate over gun control in the country has found.
...
The United States has about six violent deaths per 100,000 residents. None of the 16 other countries included in the review came anywhere close to that ratio. Finland was closest to the U.S. ranking with slightly more than two violent deaths per 100,000 residents.
...
For many years, Americans have been dying at younger ages that people in almost all other wealthy countries. In addition to the impact of gun violence, Americans consume the most calories among peer countries and get involved in more accidents that involve alcohol. The U.S. also suffers higher rates of drug-related deaths, infant mortality and AIDS.
The result is that the life expectancy for men in the United States ranked the lowest among the 17 countries reviewed, at 75.6 years, while the life expectancy for U.S. women ranked second lowest at 80.7 years. The countries reviewed included Canada, Japan, Australia and much of Western Europe.

[galileoreloaded]

12. Go check out page 9 from the CDC link I posted.

I'm much more fearful of heart disease and cancer. 2000% percent more.

[yardwork]

14. We all die of something. People die younger in the U.S. due to firearms.

The six year old killed in Sandy Hook Elementary School will never have the opportunity to get heart disease or cancer. They will never have the opportunity to be treated and possibly cured of those diseases. They will not have the opportunity to live into their 70s or 80s or 90s. They're dead at the age of six.

[apocalypsehow]

6. Phony analogy: easy availability of guns is a human-made disaster, and can be curbed/ended by

human beings acting in our capacity for self-governance. Cancer, diabetes, strokes...these are all medical calamities. You can tell the difference between an AR-15 and, say, a heart attack can't you? Can't you?

[galileoreloaded]

25. I posted government statistics on how people die. Homicide by firearm is 107th on the list.

Those are just facts with no agenda or judgements.

[apocalypsehow]

27. And then you proceeded to try to compare apples with oranges using those same statistics.

You might wanna go back and re-read your own OP: you seem to have forgotten what you typed there. Pro-tip.

[galileoreloaded]

58. er, ok.

[apocalypsehow]

70. Uh, yeah, "ok," because that's precisely what you did in your OP. n/t.

[Agnosticsherbet]

7. Just kicking the dead children into shallow graves is much cheaper...

It is not "just life" to put a bullet through a 6 year old's head. It isn't just bad things.

More than 800 have been killed since Sandy Hook.

Time to quit kissing the ass of the NRA, Right Wing, Conservative bull shitters and do something.

[apocalypsehow]

9. One other thing, professor:

We'll eventually get meaningful gun control because the country is turning Blue, Democratic. But it looks like that is coming sooner rather than later, thanks to the horrific carnage these deadly little toys are wreaking on the innocent at an accelerating pace. And that legislation can't come a moment too soon; and once it does, all of our "law abiding gun owners" are going to have exactly two choices. 1. Abide by the law. (Or) 2. Go to jail.

Either/or. Period.

[Kalidurga]

10. Even more expensive words...

Nothing should be done. Why is that more expensive? Ask the Bureau of Labor statistics how much work is lost when people are sick. Ask insurance companies how much they pay out when someone is murdered, dies accidentally, or through illness. Even if it isn't cost effective to keep people healthy would it be right to let people be ill to protect the bottom line?

[Robb]

11. Is this a joke?

You realize this includes all ages, right?

Edited to add: apparently you're serious. You want to compare gun violence deaths with all the diseases associated with old age, and use that comparison to justify inaction on gun regulation. Moronic.

[galileoreloaded]

15. Should'nt all ages be counted?

I'm curious what age ranges you find the most valuable for your experience here.

[Robb]

18. The ones that don't include causes of death typical of old age.

Sorry to repeat myself, but apparently it's necessary.

[yardwork]

19. I pointed out that six year old victims of gun violence don't get to live long enough to experience

heart disease.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2187405

[BainsBane]

43. +100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

[pkdu]

13. What a pathetic justification of the status quo.....and the gungeoneers pile on..... Nt

[Initech]

21. "Let's go to war"

[Fumesucker]

22. The four most horrible words in the English language

"Your child is dead."

Perhaps you would like to be the one to tell some parents their child is dead of a gunshot wound since you think it's just life.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. +1,000,000

The gun nuts fancy themselves "adults." They're pitiful.

[GP6971]

44. Spot on. n/t

[galileoreloaded]

67. I have.

It's mind-warpingly painful.

[GP6971]

77. I know

In the military I had Next of Kin notification assignments. Most were uneventful, until one day when I had 3. The most difficult day of my life.....the memories will always be with me.

[Fumesucker]

82. That makes the attitude you display in your OP even more difficult to understand

It's one thing to have a child taken by disease or even accident, but deliberate murder is something a little beyond that.

[galileoreloaded]

105. You have to think of it like athiesm...

it generally takes a hell of a lot more thought and consideration than just blind faith to an ideology that you were brought up in.

[Fumesucker]

107. No I don't have to think of it like atheism

I had another word in mind that begins with A.

[thucythucy]

155. This says it all.

Thank you again, "Fumesucker" for cutting through all this gun death apologist BS.

[Squinch]

24. "Gun deaths. Just God's will. Nothing can be done about them." Are you really that dumb?

Are you really that insensitive?

Do you actually believe the swill you are spouting?

[galileoreloaded]

26. Who were you quoting? That sounds terribly insensitive. I posted facts.

[Robb]

29. You cherry picked bullshit, and got caught.

In the 10 years from 2000 through 2009, more than 298,000 people died from gunshots in the U.S., about 30,000 people a year.

If you exclude natural causes of death and consider only deaths caused by injury, it is the second-leading cause of death over that time span; only car accidents (417,000) killed more people.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robwaters/2012/07/24/gun-violence-the-public-health-issue-politicians-want-to-ignore/

THAT is what your numbers actually say. Why lie about it?

[galileoreloaded]

60. Yep, I cherry picked a CDC report on all causes of death and posted the link. Caught me.

Your agenda is showing.

[cbrer]

28. It's all about fear. nt

[galileoreloaded]

68. Yup.

A lot of hyper-stimulated amygdala's.

[Egalitarian Thug]

30. But it makes a great shiny object to keep the sheeple's attention while

the people that matter continue their schemes to steal every last penny before they abandon these shores.

[BainsBane]

31. more preschool children die from gunshots

than police die from active duty. What kind of person are you to not think that is problem? Your desire to pretend to play cops and robbers is more important that that? There is nothing that turns my stomach more than that kind of immorality. The next time there is a mass murder, realize YOU and those like you did everything possible to avoid doing anything about it because you didn't think it was important.
So yes, the blood of those children are on your hands because you have made it very clear there mean nothing to you and go to great lengths to make sure mass murderers continue to have access to their homicidal tools. You people are fond of pointing out that guns don't kill. What kills is a profound cultural sickness that leads to homicide, gun companies and their allies that privilege profits above human life, and people who insist that the availability of weapons of mass murder mean more than the tens of thousands of Americans who die every year from gun.

Acting like adults doesn't mean putting your own hobby above human life. It doesn't mean deciding that human life is inconsequential. It doesn't mean the infantile desire to play soldier trumps the rest of our right to live. It means developing a conscience befitting a human being. It means recognizing that we are all part of society and that we all have a responsibility that extends beyond your own personal desires. It means respecting the rights of others to live, rather than concluding as you have that 38,000 Americans who lose their lives every year don't matter--which is exactly what you have gone in this thread.

The US has the highest homicide rate in the industrialized world, and deaths by gunfire are triple that of homicides.

I cannot even begin to fathom how people like you live with yourselves.

[galileoreloaded]

64. I don't own a gun friend, but I don't like boogeymen either. Or bully's.

[BainsBane]

84. bullies?

You mean someone might keep them from shooting 100 rounds into a 6 year old's body within 30 seconds? However will they get buy only being able to unload 10 bullets into their victims. And however will gun industries get by without selling millions of weapons every year to criminals.

You must feel so righteous standing up for a multi-billion dollar gun industry over the aggressive bullying of dead children and their grieving parents. How brave of you to stand up to protect those who profit from the blood of children. You are not an never will be my friend. You are the friend to the gun lobby, which makes you my enemy.

[galileoreloaded]

85. Yep, bullies. Well, internet bullies anyway.

"I cannot even begin to fathom how people like you live with yourselves." Pretty personal response to a CDC report.

[BainsBane]

96. Your effort to hide behind statistics is pathetic

Your attempt at analysis is laughable. You can't even spell let alone analyze public health reports. Your assertion is that more people should die from gun shots wounds than old age for it to be a consequential cause of death.

Less than 3000 died on 9/11, yet the country turned itself upside down to prevent similar deaths in the future. Gun deaths are preventable. Old age is not. Society and the medical establishment is working to prevent deaths from heart disease, AIDs, automobiles, and others on the list. Yet you assert we should do nothing about gun shot deaths. Why is that? Because of the "civil liberties" of murders? Because of the gun industries quest for blood drenched profits. Morality and human life may mean nothing to you, but Karma is inevitable.

[graham4anything]

32. List of the 26 victims in CT. each killed by a gun and a bullet, including 20 children

Charlotte Bacon (2/22/06), 6 years old, female

Daniel Barden (9/25/05), 7 years old, male

Rachel Davino (7/17/83), Staff member, 29 years old, female

Olivia Engel (7/18/06), 6 years old, female

Josephine Gay (12/11/05), 7 years old, female

Ana M. Marquez-Greene (4/4/06), 6 years old, female

Dylan Hockley (3/8/06), 6 years old, male

Dawn Hochsprung (6/28/65), Principal, 47 years old, female

Madeleine F. Hsu (7/10/06), 6 years old, female

Catherine V. Hubbard (6/8/06), 6 years old, female

Chase Kowalski (10/31/05), 7 years old, male

Nancy Lanza, 52 years old, female (mother of shooter Adam Lanza)

Jesse Lewis (6/30/06), 6 years old, male

James Mattioli (03/22/06), 6 years old, male

Grace McDonnell (11/4/05), 7 years old, female

Anne Marie Murphy (7/25/60), Staff member, 52 years old, female

Emilie Parker (05/12/06), 6 years old, female

Jack Pinto (05/05/06), 6 years old, male

Noah Pozner (11/20/06), 6 years old, male

Caroline Previdi (9/07/06), 6 years old, female

Jessica Rekos (5/10/06), 6 years old, female

Avielle Richman (11/17/06) 6 years old, female

Lauren Rousseau (June 1982), Staff member, 30 years old, female

Mary Sherlach (2/11/56), Staff member, 56 years old, female

Victoria Soto (11/04/85), Staff member, 27 years old, female

Benjamin Wheeler (09/12/06), 6 years old, male

Allison N. Wyatt (07/03/06), 6 years old, female

19 people died from a rightwing terrorist in Oklahoma city and was treated like a terrorist should be treated(actually he was treated too nice IMHO, he got to plan for his death).
26 people died in CT
I see no difference in who died

Both should be treated the same way and the laws should be changed-
Guns are WMDs.
they are weapons
they are en masse
they destroy en masse
they are created solely to kill something or someone

and the NRA should be reclassified as a terror org. and have their assets frozen
along with the assets of those that support a terror org.

It really is quite easy.
All it takes is a new supreme court to reevaluate just what the 2nd means

being that a shoulder to air missle would be acceptable for every person to have if one isn't told specifically who and what are included.

The only people who should have guns are federal, state and local law enforcement and the US military.

seems quite easy.

IMHO

[klook]

33. Among causes of death by homicide on that list, what is the rank of homicide by firearms?

That's right. Number One.

If you are interested in decreasing deaths by homicide, that fact is of interest.

[patrice]

34. Just as I said earlier; those who'll kill for guns just "think" SHIT HAPPENS. Thanks for the proof.

[BainsBane]

35. Expensive?

As in harming the profits of the gun industry. What other expensive could you have in mind?

[galileoreloaded]

75. Any civil liberty that can

amass enough emotional gravitas without a solid look at quantitative or qualitative facts and be stripped from the commons.

I tend to trust people, and at 107th down the list, we have bigger fish to fry in public health policy.

[lunasun]

37. four most expensive words in the english language.....

because money should always be the bottom line!

[BainsBane]

40. when you carry water for a multi-billion dollar corporate industry

nothing else matters. No one loses money out of gun control other than the gun industry.

[lunasun]

56. Oh but your taxes and the gubermint costs =you will lose $$$ too

Now your personal bottom line is being toted too not just 2nd amendment

I just couldn't stand the perspective and had to post!

Not gonna gain to much ground with folks using the greed argument imo

But I know many worship $$$ above all else esp. their own .
If the OP was valuing the constitution or something as an argument I would not have posted
It was the money thing for me - all about the "expense"

[awoke_in_2003]

42. I figured they were...

"will you marry me?" or "I want a divorce",

[klook]

52. Or "Hey, y'all -- watch this!" (n/t)

[JVS]

154. "let's have some kids"

[Pretzel_Warrior]

46. You aren't very persuasive.

Death by poisoning? Child proof caps. Death due to automobile accidents? More safety features and better results.

Similarly logical and clearly beneficial approaches must be taken.

The NRA needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP about "nothing about guns can or should be done."

Your post is clothed in reasonableness but is completely lacking in reason with the conclusion you reach.

[galileoreloaded]

71. i'm not being persuasive in the least. Just plying statistics and suggesting fear

is a poor motivator with dubious effects on outcome.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

79. This isn't fear. It is cold resolve and determination

That kowtowing to gun lobby is not producing desired results in our society.

Your stats tell a different story than the one you're attempting.

[Hissyspit]

88. "Suggesting fear as a motivator?"

You did it yourself when you said you were much more scared of cancer or heart disease.

Sophistry on top of sophistry with some patronizing to boot.

[galileoreloaded]

108. Those numbers are pretty concerning.

[Hissyspit]

112. Stupid and boring game you're playing.

[jmg257]

97. Are you shitting? Fear is a great motivator! Look at all those asses

Running out to by semiautos simply because they are afraid of a ban.

I imagine they'd piss themselves if there was no grandfathering, or when they realize the arms will be subject to the NFA tax and be nontransferable.

[laundry_queen]

120. Yep, there's fear alright.

But it ain't on the gun control side. Yet another case of projection.

[Skittles]

47. OMG

you folk just do NOT.FUCKING.GET.IT.....we are DONE listening to your silly analogies, reacting to your insane fears.....DONE!!!

[Fla_Democrat]

48. "Will you marry me"

has turned out pretty freaking costly around here.

[galileoreloaded]

57. Touche. lol.

[Scootaloo]

49. Always nice to see people miss the damn point

Nobody makes you develop cancer. There is no intent to parkinson's disease. Heart disease is not forced upon you by another person's agency.

When you die from a gun, it's because of someone's intent, whether that is someone trying to kill you, or someone's carelessness with the weapon.

Comparing homicide by firearm to deaths from disease is disingenuous and ludicrous.

[galileoreloaded]

69. In this cultural wasteland?

I think we are going to have to disagree.

[hack89]

147. What about suicides?

they constitute over half of gun deaths - I see it as a health issue, mental health specifically.

[JaneyVee]

50. 4 most expensive words are "Should've Done Something Sooner".

[grantcart]

51. So if it was like in the top 5 would it warrant urgent action?

So you look at morbidity tables and factor in all the people including those that die of old age.


Hmmm how intellectually sloppy and bankrupt.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db37.htm
Now lets look at a group that doesn't experience organic morbidity, like teenagers:

•The five leading causes of death among teenagers are Accidents (unintentional injuries), homicide, suicide, cancer, and heart disease. Accidents account for nearly one-half of all teenage deaths.

CDC goes on to tell us that homicide is the leading cause for Black teenagers:

•Homicide is the leading cause of death for non-Hispanic black male teenagers. For all other groups, accident is the leading cause.

[Major Nikon]

54. I find it ironic and funny how you would work irrational fear into a pro-gun argument

Just sayin'

[galileoreloaded]

66. I made an anti-heart disease

argument in my opinion, to spark a conversation about priorities of fact not feeling.

I feel I have made my point.

[Major Nikon]

81. Your point is a false dichotomy

It's not different from the rest of the false dichotomy arguments that the gun proliferates make about cars, or doctors, or anything else that doesn't involve guns in a futile attempt to deflect the conversation away from guns. The only real difference is yours is somewhat sillier than most, because it's just as easy to debunk as all the other false dichotomy arguments from the gun proliferates, yet it offers evidence as to why the gun proliferates' self-defense argument is largely based on irrational fear.

[galileoreloaded]

87. In 2009, homicide by firearm is the 107th leading cause of death. Thats what I posted.

You realize it's the "practice of medicine" and not the science of it right? We are having some logic issue tonight, and I am really surprised it has gone on this long.

[Major Nikon]

90. I realize you are making a transparent argument that has been debunked over and over

Perhaps you think you are bringing something new to the party, but you aren't.

[galileoreloaded]

94. Someone debunked the CDC report I linked? WTF are you talking about?

Sheesh.

[Major Nikon]

100. So the CDC says we shouldn't be worried about gun violence?

Or was that you?

Kinda late in the game to cling to disingenuous nonsense isn't it?

[bobclark86]

61. 430,000 lung cancer deaths from smoking.

Ban tobacco products. 430,000 will still be alive next year (well, some have already developed cancer, but over time, that figure will drop to 0).

Saved a hell of a lot more lives than the 323 killed by rifles in 2011 (only a fraction of which were with "assault weapons&quot .

[laundry_queen]

121. Yawn.

can't you gungeon people come up with new arguments?

[treestar]

62. Sometimes it is true

And it is not always something expensive.

Guns are something that should have been controlled a long time ago. Other countries have and they are still going.

It is not "just life" to have shootings in elementary schools. That is not something we should just accept.

[Agschmid]

63. Well let me put it this way...

Anything I can do to help my odds... I might do.

And that mean's tackling reasons 1 through well 107. I'm a bottom to the top kind of guy... so let's start right there.

Thanks for your input!

[Wounded Bear]

72. "We can't afford that".......nt

[okaawhatever]

73. Another pro-gunner ignoring other data; pls also include # of accidental shootings, suicides, rapes

committed at gunpoint, robberies committed at gunpint, injuries, paralyzations, blindings, accidental deaths to children, hostage taking not resulting in "homicide by discharge of firearm", once you have done that you will have a better picture. Now we will compare our efforts to stop all those incidents, compared to our collective efforts to deal with the other 106 such as:

Dollars spent on research for cures/treatment
Dollars spent on medications for cures/treatment
Legislation created to aide those seeking to find cures/treatment
Hours spent by families trying to improve awareness and education
Charities created to help people deal with the other 106 causes
Government campaigns to raise awareness and turn the tide of 106 causes
Lobbies in government to promote the issues, increase funding, and better our legislation

But if I understand correctly, your point is that even 1 law aimed at preventing gun control and improve public safety is too much effort to lower the number of the cause of 107. Got it.

BTW-I don't have a problem with most gun owners in this country. Ofcourse, they don't have a problem with registration, education and background checks. If I can't see one redeeming quality in your argument, you probably don't have one.

[galileoreloaded]

78. lol. I'm not a pro gunner and I included a link to all 96 pages of the report. Nt

[Kalidurga]

86. I think you need to explain your position and point a whole lot better than just posting...

a 96 page report. Break it down. Are you for or against mitigating gun deaths in the country?

[galileoreloaded]

91. I have no point, nor agenda except one.

Before I willingly forfeit any right, privileged, or anything else that I currently enjoy as an American citizen, I need more debate than what I see on DU and it needs to be factual.

I don't need to break it down. I'm not trying to take anything away, that locus of persuasion needs to fall to those attempting to convince me.

[Kalidurga]

95. I didn't see an answer to my question.

Are you for or against mitigating the damage that guns do in this country?

[galileoreloaded]

99. I reject the frame of your question.

Sorry.

[Kalidurga]

104. How would you like me to frame it?

[muriel_volestrangler]

127. Then it seems you're not interested in debate

and you are trolling DU with this thread. "Are you for or against mitigating the damage guns do" is a fairly straight-forward question, and a good one to ask when your OP says "in reality, bad things happen to good people... There are no inherent guarantees to life, no risk that can be avoided 100%. Its just life."

The simple way to interpret your OP is that you have no wish to mitigate the damage guns do, because "it's just life". When asked for clarification, you refuse to answer, yet you maintain the fiction that you "need more debate". You're not interested in debate; you want to deflect the debate.

And you're not sorry.

[Major Nikon]

92. This isn't a thread about guns, it's about heart disease

[Kalidurga]

101. Interesting

Well I can tell you some ways to combat heart disease some are cheap.

1. People need to get more sleep. We are an insomniac nation. Include me in on that I have had a sleep disorder or two since I was about 10 years old.

2. People need to eat a lot more vegetables and fruit.

3. People need to eat more fiber.

4. We need to make cities more walker friendly.

5. We have to make this country more income equitable (not cheap, but it is part of a comprehensive approach to the heart disease problem).

6. We have to make it ok for people to express their feelings and this includes women as many women don't want to be seen as being too emotional in the work force.

7. We need to teach people how to self sooth in ways that don't involve drugs or alcohol. Teaching yoga would probably be a good thing.

8. We need to put physical education back in schools and it should be for at least one hour every day.

9. We need to work on being less judgmental. A lot of people are very sensitive to criticism and with good reason. Many critics are critical of a lot of things that aren't their business, like if a young mother works outside the home.

10. We have to reduce this culture of violence. I am not saying put away violent movies and video games. But everything from our language to how we treat each other in conflicts reeks with violence even if it isn't physical ie a lot of yelling and posturing.

[Major Nikon]

106. Gun control is pretty cheap also

...and costs can be assessed as an excise tax on guns.

[Kalidurga]

110. Yep

But for some reason some people don't want to have a small expense to mitigate the damage guns do.

[Robb]

129. But you are a "pro gunner."

Your posting history on DU is available for everyone to peruse, at peril to their senses, but there it is.

For example: http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10022002927

[CreekDog]

89. what's the global warming denier telling us now?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2145792

[patrice]

93. Thanks for the tip. The "reloaded" should have been a clue, even though galileo, it ain't. nt

[galileoreloaded]

98. Denier eh? Cool new label I haven't heard yet.

You do know why iron oxidizes and rusts correct? Or anything about thermodynamics? It's cool. I got ya.

[galileoreloaded]

102. I think I made my point, at least to myself.

Great conversation folks.

[Lizzie Poppet]

109. Yep.

And it's a damned valid one...

[laundry_queen]

122. Valid? omfg

I can't stop laughing. Because comparing ALL deaths (natural or otherwise) vs gun deaths is a valid comparison. Not enough of these in the world to say how ridiculous y'all sound:

[Lizzie Poppet]

135. No worries. Smilies are an apt medium...

...for that sort of opinion.

[laundry_queen]

137. Oh my, the wit.

More smilies:

[Zoeisright]

115. No you didn't.

You may have "convinced" yourself, but you're fucking wrong.

[kestrel91316]

113. Gun deaths and injuries are a PUBLIC HEALTH issue just like diseases are.

But I'm sure that whole concept sounds like communism to you, so whatever.......

[galileoreloaded]

130. That is my whole point as I posted in replies.

I'm glad we agree that we need to make decisions from a public policy and health perspective, not from a reactive emotional one.

[Zoeisright]

114. What a fucking stupid post.

Comparing firearm deaths to cancer and diabetes is just fucking dumb. God, don't you gun humpers have any logical reasoning ability at ALL?

[laundry_queen]

123. Clearly they don't.

This whole thread has me roaring.

[Demo_Chris]

116. Four most expensive: "We're having a baby!"

[nyquil_man]

118. Let us do what we can when we can.

I appreciate your sentiment. After all, everybody's got to die of something.

But to say "it's only 107th" is to reduce human lives to statistics.

[intaglio]

124. The 3 stupidest word in the English language

"Second Amendment Rights" when as of Sunday morning at least 812 Americans had been killed by guns since Newtown

This includes 8 children and 27 teens. Neither my figure nor your foolish post includes suicide by gun which is one of the main methods of self harm.

Not all of the 812 deaths would have been prevented by gun control but a significant proportion would have been. What you are claiming is that because not all deaths from cancer are cured by treatment cancer should not be treated.

[Odin2005]

131. Bullshit RW Libertarian talking points.

[Ikonoklast]

140. Your genetic pre-disposition to certain diseases is EXACTLY like getting shot to death at age 7.

What a steaming pile of horse shit.

[gollygee]

132. Where is the Unrec button?

Most useless phrase in the English language: "It's expensive so let's not bother doing anything and just let people suffer."

[Robb]

134. Or "Thank God It Passed."

[Robb]

138. Thought this sounded regurgitated.

http://patriotpost.us/opinion/16262

[gollygee]

139. Ewwww

Good investigative work

[Robb]

143. Please, proceed.

[Odin2005]

144. Busted!

[Robb]

153. It's all over except for the inevitable self delete.

[bhikkhu]

141. That's one of the stupider lines of reasoning I've heard

We may as well all just lay down and take whatever's coming. Because its cheaper that way?

[Taverner]

156. Oh, I thought it was "I want a divorce"

[thucythucy]

158. "Speak to my attorney."

[LanternWaste]

164. The renewed dialog on firearms in the US has a lot of people scared

The renewed dialog on firearms in the US has a lot of people scared-- as though we should not discuss it at all. Odd that so many people are frightened of mere speech.

[sad-cafe]

166. followed closely by "You can trust me"

I find that no I can not trust you to most people that say that.

[PurpleEngineer]

167. Some good points here...

but, personally, I think we will end up with some sort of controls on the federal level, which will lead to additional nullification debates in state legislatures. We've become too fractured. The speed at which we communicate just makes the fractures deeper. It's going to get interesting.

[Rex]

172. The four most easily said words ever by people with an agenda.

'You can trust me.'