General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIn Defense of Zero Dark Thirty by Michael Moore
There comes a point about two-thirds of the way through Zero Dark Thirty where it is clear something, or someone, on high has changed. The mood at the CIA has shifted, become subdued. It appears that the torture-approving guy who's been president for the past eight years seems to be, well, gone. And, just as a fish rots from the head down, the stench also seems to be gone. Word then comes down that - get this! - we can't torture any more! The CIA agents seem a bit disgruntled and dumbfounded. I mean, torture has worked soooo well these past eight years! Why can't we torture any more???
The answer is provided on a TV screen in the background where you see a black man (who apparently is the new president) and he's saying, in plain English, that America's torturing days are over, done, finished. There's an "aw, shit" look on their faces and then some new boss comes into the meeting room, slams his fist on the table and says, essentially, you've had eight years to find bin Laden - and all you've got to show for it are a bunch of photos of naked Arab men peeing on themselves and wearing dog collars and black hoods. Well, he shouts, those days are over! There's no secret group up on the top floor looking for bin Laden, you're it, and goddammit do your job and find him.
He is there to put the fear of God in them, probably because his boss, the new president, has (as we can presume) on his first day in office, ordered that bin Laden be found and killed. Unlike his frat boy predecessor who had little interest in finding bin Laden (even to the point of joking that "I really just don't spend that much time on him" , this new president was not an imbecile and all about business. Go find bin Laden - and don't use torture. Torture is morally wrong. Torture is the coward's way. C'mon - we're smart, we're the USA, and you're telling me we can't find a six-and-a-half-foot tall Saudi who's got a $25 million bounty on his head? Use your brains (like I do) and, goddammit, get to work! And then, as the movie shows the CIA abruptly shifts from torture porn to - are you sitting down? - detective work. Like cops do to find killers. Bin Laden was a killer - a mass killer - not a general of an army of soldiers, or the head of a country call Terrorstan.
http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/276-74/15716-in-defense-of-zero-dark-thirty
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)Last edited Sat Jan 26, 2013, 02:54 PM - Edit history (1)
....why haven't the filmmakers come right out and said so instead of leaving the impression that torture gave us information critical to finding Bin Laden?
Oh, by the way, another point Moore has made previously....the Bush and Bin Laden families were very close. Just my opinion, but I think that's exactly why Bush "lost interest" in finding Bin Laden.
===========================================
Okay, I took the time to read Moore's excellent review and I now understand what he's saying about the film and the point they're trying to make. I wasn't going to watch the movie before reading this, but now I will....even though I will have major difficulties with the torture scenes.
tblue
(16,350 posts)so I'll never see this film. But, yeah, obviously a lot of moviegoers are missing the point if indeed what Michael Moore says is the point, is the point. And thats prolly cuz the filmmakers weren't making that point at all. They wanted to profit off of this story and they wanted a blockbuster. They weren't all that interested in making a political point one way or another, IMHO. Fwiw.
icarusxat
(403 posts)great points regarding who knows and who will say anything and what is already obvious but being ignored...gonna go see or buy the film soon
Kablooie
(18,619 posts)The film showed clearly how torture gave no useful information.
It wasn't until the CIA agents sat down with the prisoner and gave him a decent meal that he began to talk and this is what the director explained.
The fact is that America used torture is part of history whether we like it or not.
To ignore this fact in the telling of the story would be a dishonest whitewashing of history.
And the film does not glorify torture. Just the opposite.
It shows how clever, nonviolent gathering of information will bring much more success than trying to wring it out of someone with torture.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)arely staircase
(12,482 posts)seen the same movie that I did.
trumad
(41,692 posts)That's how I felt after watching it --
Pirate Smile
(27,617 posts)turned me off & made me not want to see it.
Lex
(34,108 posts)just don't put any thought into the movies they see (just knee-jerk reactions).
PDittie
(8,322 posts)which leaves him off the rails in his defense of ZDT and by extension, torture... or "the value of enhanced interrogation w/r/t actionable intelligence", as Dick Cheney would say.
I expected better from Michael Moore.
Lex
(34,108 posts)OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)PDittie
(8,322 posts)Thanks.
OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)Lex
(34,108 posts)PDittie
(8,322 posts)It looks like I should make an exception in this case, due to your persistent rudeness.
Moore makes weak arguments backing Zero Dark Thirty on torture. He calls it a work of "fiction" even though Bigelow says it's based on true events. He claims it is actually anti-torture simply because it shows it, and doesn't care what lesson most people take from it -- and says "artist" has no responsibility to get it right.
He also claims, correctly, that torture rarely gets good intel and 99 times out of 100 gets wrong or bad info -- but isn't bothered by the fact that the film does not show that. In fact, the movie shows not one but several prisoners giving up something vital after, if not during, torture.
Moore is wrong. And so are you.
Lex
(34,108 posts)PDittie
(8,322 posts)this movie would make me do so. If there is anybody who needed his encouragement to dislike torture and might be swayed by his opinion and the viewing of ZDT in order to make that leap... then good for those folks.
In other words, I consider this another example of the weakness of his argument. I expected better from him.
gtar100
(4,192 posts)Oh how the right wing has the media by the balls. Very interesting take from Michael.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)But it had some interesting moments.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)dense information for one clue that stands out. Any pursuit, including business and being a cop is boring, it is about lots of grunt work done to finally bring about a result that is significant.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)making allusions to other people's works, some arcane, some obscure. But that little frisson when one recognizes the allusion is oh-so-gratifying. For example, Joseph Heller asks (in 'Catch 22') "Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?" Only those who have some exposure to French literature will catch the allusion to the 15th-Century French poet Francois Villon who asked 'Where are the snows of yesteryear?"
Tracking down "elusive" persons, on the other hand, may be long and boring. I wouldn't know, as I've never done it.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)But, it's the MOVIES. At least make it more exciting.
TeamPooka
(24,216 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I was adament that I was not going to spend a dime to see this movie because I read extensively about it and all the accounts both negative and positive made me think I had a basic understanding of what the film showed and I did not like it. Now Michael Moore has come with a whole new perspective on the movie, and I must admit he makes a much more compelling defense of the film than any defense I have read previously. I am debating watching it now, I am struggling because if Moore is wrong then I don't want to give them my money but if he is right then I would want to see this movie.
I only wish there would be a way to get a refund if Moore was wrong and this movie really is pro-torture propaganda. I hate moral dilemas when you don't know if your money is going to go to something worthwhile or something you would never support in a million years.
bennettweiss
(1 post)Go to a multiplex. Buy ticket for another film. Go to a screening room where Zero is playing.
The movie that I would recommend buying a ticket for but not actually seeing is Silver Lining Playbook. It is an superfluous piece of crap that at least does no harm.
Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)I grew up with a brother who suffered from mental illness so I could identify with the story in Silver Linings Playbook and it was one of my favorite movies of the year. David O. Russell is one of the most talented and underappreciated directors working today. You do offer a good solution however, I might just have to buy a ticket for Silver Linings Playbook.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)If they are generally progressive, they may have been trying to show how torture was leading down the wrong path and when the directive was changed, progress started to happen. In order to prove that premise, the bad, aka torture, has to be dealt with as it was.