Why I keep guns in my home.

[Whovian]

[bluestateguy]

1. She must be angry with her family, friends and acquaintances and down on herself.

nt

[99Forever]

2. That's apparently very common among Delicate flowers.

[ZombieHorde]

67. Hahahaha! nt

[Recursion]

3. Why is the comparison always with "killing an intruder"?

That strikes me as a very very small subset of defensive uses of a firearm.

[Deep13]

6. Actually that is true. A confrontation on the street is more likely. nt

[Recursion]

7. It was the "killing" bit I don't get

Not all defensive firearms uses involve firing the weapon, not all shots hit a person, and not all people hit are killed.

[Deep13]

16. All true.

And that's an argument against restrictions on at least normal capacity pistol magazines. 1. you might miss a moving target in low light and under stress. 2. handguns are all "underpowered" for stopping purposes, so the first or second hit might not stop an attack.

[Maraya1969]

157. This happened in my family. My cousin killed his girlfriend by accident with a gun.

And he was a good hunter, he knew how to shoot, he'd been hunting with my Uncle when he was young and continued to hunt often and was good at it so I suppose that means he was a good shot. He knew firearm safety. But an intruder did come into their house and she was caught in crossfire.

So she is dead anyway. Don't think it can't happen to you.

[RILib]

192. grandson

There was an article in my local paper a few years ago. A grandfather shot his grandson while hunting. That must be about the worst thing imaginable.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

188. "2. handguns are all "underpowered" for stopping purposes"

Only in Halo 2.

[sarisataka]

20. "Killing" plays better

in the tit-for-tat statistics war.

On one hand, killing is bad-vigilante justice
On the other if the intruder is not killed, it inflates the pro-control position that guns are more dangerous to the user.
Therefore only "killings" count- wounded or situations ending with no shots fired can be ignored for the good of the cause.

[Whovian]

10. Enlighten me, please. What other Ralphie situations come to mind?

[Recursion]

13. You're joking, right?

Brandishing to scare someone off
Chambering a round to scare someone off
Firing into the air to scare someone off
Shooting someone and wounding them (on the order of 3 quarters of gunshots are not fatal)

[Cosmocat]

153. You are kidding, right?

does the other person have a firearm or not?

Cause none of these four scenarios are viable if someone has a firearm.

If you jack around with chambering bullets or firing a round to "scare" someone who has a firearm, you basically are asking to get shot while you do it.

And, if you are a smaller person dealing with an unarmed person bigger than you, using a firearm in this manner with an unarmed person only enables a situation where that person will disarm you and use your weapon on you.

Whatever is in YOUR mind that a gun makes you feel more secure, it does not translate to these "bad guys."

If you are dealing with a true "bad guy" none of these four scenarios are truly viable with either an armed or unarmed person.

This is fantasy, watching too many movies delusional stuff.

Guns are serious shit, you either are going to use them with deadly force or you have no business brandishing them in the first place.

[klook]

168. Thank you.

And BTW -- If brandishing a scary looking weapon is a serious deterrent, why don't more people buy convincing replicas? They're cheaper and safer than real guns, after all.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

179. Fantasy is your perspective on gun owners...

In my neighborhood, guns = respect. If you have one you're feared and at some point someone is going to take that as a challenge to take you out. Far too many people fit this type. In my experience with gun owners the majority are neither "bad" nor "good" and exist somewhere in between.

[Cosmocat]

206. huh

not sure you get the point I was making ...

[arely staircase]

64. or even defensive use

i keep a shotgun locked (and trigger locked) in a safe so i am 100 percent more likely to shoot some dove or quail, shoulD i get back into that one day. i have that and a couple more guns i inherited. i don't really think of the guns in my home in terms of protection but rather heirlooms and tools for hunting or target plinking. fyi - i own no assault weapons or anything with high capacity (or even interchangeable magazines.)

Now should I hear someone break into my house at night, after i locked my bedroom door and called 911 i would probably get a shotgun out of the safe while waiting for the cops to arrive - hopefully before anyone tried to get to me in my bedroom. but my door locks and telephone are my prime defense tools in the intruder situation.

i think the intruder thing is mentioned so much because gun nuts like to fantasize about shooting an intruder and engage in tough talk about defending their castle. this makes low hanging fruit for gun control supporters who can easily point to the much higher number of accidental, family murder, suicides that occur in homes with guns than actual instances of people saving their families from intruders with gun, which does happen. just not as much as the other stuff.

[morningfog]

118. The comparision is sound because it is being compared to killing of someone living in the home.

You are trying to muddy the waters and derail the point.

[Recursion]

124. No

This is telling me the chances of killing an intruder vs. killing someone in the household.

The important question is killing someone in the household vs. saving the life of someone in the household.

[morningfog]

173. Make your own. This one is true and says

You are much more likely to kill someone in the home than an intruder. Someone dead in the home matters.

And for your to be correct would need number of times someone in the home is shot or threatened compared to the same with intruders.

[Recursion]

174. The purpose of the gun is not to kill an intruder but to save the life of someone in the family

Killing the intruder is sometimes an unfortunate side-effect of that. I think this really is a category error stemming from the "guns only purpose is to kill" mantra.

And for your to be correct would need number of times someone in the home is shot or threatened compared to the same with intruders.

I don't see why. If I owned a gun for home defense (I don't) the issue would be what risk vs. benefit does that bring. This poster semi-accurately describes the risk; quantifying the benefit is significantly more difficult.

[PerpetuallyDazed]

184. Yet when we are trained it is "shoot to kill"... not maim, slow down, ect...

And I think therein lies the problem. I am not against guns, I am against their lethality. I wish the gun-nuts would realize that those who call for greater gun control (and even the fringe who demand ALL guns be banned) are just tired of seeing these weapons take lives. Why doesn't the argument center more on the ammo we are programmed to buy and use? Or why isn't there more lobbying on behalf of consumers for federal grants into research and development of TRULY non-lethal ammo? This could be a new frontier in technology and lead to a more Progressive society.

[Recursion]

186. I remember being trained to "shoot center mass"

which is not the most lethal way to shoot, but is the most likely to hit.

I definitely agree about less-lethal ammo for home defense. A friend of mine uses subsonic.

[Duckhunter935]

193. Actually I was trained

shoot as the last resort to stop the threat, killing is not a primary reason. Shooting center mass is the best way as that provides the best chance of hitting the target. Once the threat is stopped that is it. wounded or killed. Same as in the military. no longer a threat and now that enemy soldier will require medical aid.

[morningfog]

212. I disagree with you on what numbers matter.

But, taking your approach. What is the number of intruders stopped with a gun compared to those shot (killed or not) who were members of the home or friends?

[reACTIONary]

198. The reason is that the picture depicts...

...a woman. I think the stats relate to women also, but I'm not sure. Unlike men, women are more likely to be killed or injured by a gun in the home. Men are more likely to be a victim on the street.

I take the picture to be a response to recent Senate testimony by a woman about why women would want to own assault rifles. It focused on home invasion by armed intruders. I believe the example given was four or five armed to the teeth intruders, while the woman's children wailed and screamed behind her.

[Deep13]

4. Suppose she has to defend herself against 3, 4 or 5 violent criminal...

...with her kids screaming in the background?

Now let's suppose it isn't a Hollywood movie....

[Whovian]

14. Or a zombie apocalypse?

[Deep13]

18. Well, that's a whole different story.

http://www.hornady.com/ammunition/zombiemax

[ZombieHorde]

68. Damn it. Now i want to buy bullets, and I don't even own a gun.

I'm a sucker for zombie stuff.

[Bosso 63]

163. Thats why I keep an ice ax on the wall next to my bed. No need to reload.

[raidert05]

83. When those..

Zombies do attack, I'll be sitting on a lawn chair on top of my house

[Iris]

90. So, are you intentionally quoting that congresswoman from last week?

Cause, honestly, I don't think the 3, 4, or 5 violent criminals busting into an average American home occurs that often.

[Deep13]

95. She was a Congresswoman?!

I thought she was just some crazy woman the NRA called as a witness!

[Iris]

96. I honestly don't know for sure.

I've been so overwhelmed by seeing so much stupid lately, it's all starting to run together.

I mean, look at me! I'm a mess! I couldn't even recognized a like-minded person's sarcasm!

[Deep13]

101. At this point we can't tell the Onion from what passes for real news. nt

[Dash87]

94. How often does that actually happen?

It's probably more likely that one of her kids would find the gun and kill themselves with it, based on the statistics in the OP.

I've been alive for 25 years, and have yet to be attacked by any violent criminal. I'm actually more afraid of having a gun than the 1% chance of being attacked somewhere. Your example sounds like something that almost never happens, and wouldn't justify having a concealed gun.

[Deep13]

99. Well the testimony wasn't to justify CCW...

...it was to justify an AR15 with a 30-round magazine as a home defense weapon. The description was quite colorful.

And yeah, neither she nor anyone testifying could find an example of that ever actually happening.

I can see a case to be made for normal capacity pistol capacity--15 rounds or whatever--because there is no guarantee that bullet #1 will stop the intruder. There is no guarantee that a frightened person will be able to hit a moving target in poor light with the first or second shot. But it is hard to see how a military-pattern rifle would be a good choice.

[Dash87]

105. Those things are huge too.

Not exactly the most portable thing to use to defend yourself. I think people buy them just because they're associated with the military, and therefore seen as a strange status symbol.

[Deep13]

116. They are normalized for a lot of gun enthusiasts.

People use them for target shooting--sometimes with elaborate sights and special triggers, hunting with models made in hunting calibers, pest control, and even for defense either at home or left in a vehicle. For some, Winchesters and the like just seem old fashion, even though they can do everything they have ever been able to do and are a lot easier to maintain. And unregulated transfers funnel them to organized criminals.

Frankly, I think they are unsuitable for defense because of their size, noise (which is unbelievable), and very real danger of over penetration--sending a bullet through a wall or into a neighbor's house.

[vduhr]

204. I'm a 63 year old woman...

who has lived alone for many years, and have lived in some bad neighborhoods, but still have never felt the need to have a gun. I mostly fear the people that vehemently claim that they have guns to "protect" themselves. From reading comments on message boards over the past weeks, I find that many of them are very angry, believe in crazy government take-over conspiracies, and fantasize about shooting someone in self-defense WAY more than is normal.

[Ineeda]

148. This is the argument my RW brother uses except

they're always "big, black, gonna rape you and steal your wedding ring." I stopped bothering to reason with him and just laugh like a lunatic, which utterly infuriates him. Which is, of course, my goal. Tit for tat. I've noticed that the one thing that is sure to get through to them is ridicule. Looking ridiculous is the one thing they can't abide.

[lunasun]

176. Watch that laughing / mocking if he is paranoid and has a gun

His idea of who the boogie man is could expand and remember this OP!

[Deep13]

189. True. Laughable arguments need to be laughed at. nt

[Cleita]

171. Grizzly bear spray is far more effective I hear and will cover

a wide swath in seconds. Nobody has to die including her and her kids if things go wrong.

[Deep13]

190. It can be, but indoors one is also spraying herself...

...and an assailant can still shoot (randomly) while blinded and panicking.

[Cleita]

191. So how will a gun protect her from another gun?

It seems a bullet proof vest or some kind of shield will do that, not another gun.

[Deep13]

195. It evens the odds...

...assuming she is aware of it before they get within arm's reach. Actually, it more than evens them because she doesn't have to go anywhere. Call the cops and wait for them while staying put or perhaps waiting in the kids' room. She doesn't have to shoot or even threaten it unless the intruders find her before the cops arrive.

Suppose they are both unarmed. She would be at the mercy of his physical strength. An armed mother gives her the upper hand. If they are both armed, again, at least it evens the odds and gives an assailant something to think about.

I realize the odds make a gun in the house more dangerous to a family than a possible intruder. I'm just saying how having one could help in that unlikely situation.

[Cleita]

196. I'm sorry I'm even engaged in this conversation.

This making up of scenarios, what if she did or he did, is better left to fiction. It's been that alternate fictional universe that people have who think they need weapons to protect them that gun manufacturers through their lobbyist the NRA have been feeding to the masses so they go out and buy guns. Nations and those nation's armies need weapons to protect them from other nations. Civilians don't. Civilians need laws that address their security to protect them. We need laws that make it safe for the ordinary citizens to be safe from idiots carrying weapons they don't have any protocols or boundaries for when they decide to use them.

[Deep13]

197. Generally agree about the need for public safety.

Obviously, the habitual homicide has to stop. We can't tolerate a situation where ever school or every public official is a potential and likely target for mass violence. We can't tolerate the funneling of small arms to organized criminals in Mexico and the USA through unregulated transfers.

Unfortunately, some people do need small arms for self defense and I am not willing to disarm them in the name of public good. No one has a duty to be a victim. That is no one has a duty to be a victim of a random shooting or of mass violence, but also against a known or probable threat that would happen before the police can intervene, a known stalker, for example.

One thing that might be a good idea: anytime a divorce is filed, the sheriff collects the firearms of both parties and holds them until 3 months after the case is over.

[cherokeeprogressive]

5. This thread is a yawn-fest. Try harder. You did better yesterday...

[pintobean]

8. It's early, yet. nt

[nick of time]

9. Yep.

He's at it again.

[Whovian]

11. God forbid anyone post anything anti gun.

[11 Bravo]

21. Yeah, that NEVER happens at DU, does it, you one-trick pony?

For Fuck's Sake, we get it! Guns and everyone who owns one is a mass murderer in waiting!

Ignore the fact that many DUers who own guns are at the same time in favor of serious new gun control legislation, and are actively working toward that end.

You, on the other hand, appear to be here simply in order to ... WHAT? Post the same shit over and over and over again?

[Whovian]

108. One trick pony????? I can do this cool thing with my eyelids!

I can juggle!

BTW, "11 Bravo?" Did you get that from the John Wayne bag o' names?

[Glaug-Eldare]

120. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

Mail Message
At Sat Feb 2, 2013, 10:19 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Yeah, that NEVER happens at DU, does it, you one-trick pony?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2301559

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Personal attacks, "one trick pony" and more.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sat Feb 2, 2013, 10:26 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Well, it IS rude, but I still wouldn't hide it... I'd just call him out for being rude and and oaf, to boot.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: Dumb reply deserves a hide for being dumb.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: Settle down, Beavis
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[SunSeeker]

139. Oy. Well that explains why we're hip deep in gun trolls. nt

[MessiahRp]

140. Yep.

And Jury duty is going to people with low post counts and if you want to see the largest mass of those people, check out the Guns board. It's an NRA recruiting ground here because DU policies for this new board are terribly ill conceived at times.

[SunSeeker]

141. It's weird, I used to get on juries almost evey time I logged on, but now, never.

Seems ever since they went to the new system that is only supposed to catch you for jury service when you click into a forum rather than a post, I have not gotten on a jury, and it's been weeks.

[MessiahRp]

143. Same here. I actually know some trolls with 127 posts that have been on more juries than I have.

I've been here since 2002. Was a Mod for a year in 2003-2004. You'd think I would get a few more jury requests that that dude.

[Recursion]

144. I get jury invites on individual posts

*shrug*

[nick of time]

27. God forbid that you try to be part of the solution

instead of starting flame wars.
Both sides do this and it hinders trying to pass meaningful laws.

[obamanut2012]

65. I know -- I didn't even make any popcorn for this one

[HockeyMom]

12. I totally agree

which I suppose SHOULD make me insane and ineligible to own a gun, right? Unfortunately, NOT.

[krispos42]

15. Successful self-defense does not require killing an intruder.

I dare say that most cases of successful self-defense with a gun don't even involve firing a shot.


And does the NEJM filter out criminals using guns in criminal fashions to protect their criminal enterprise?

Because equating my ownership of a gun with a drug dealer or drug user that illegally owns a gun and is likely to wind up killing somebody over the drug business is simply not acceptable or reasonable.

[Whovian]

19. Sorry, I see this a really stretching post to quantify your position.

The purpose of a gun is to kill or maim.

[Recursion]

22. The fact that you keep saying that doesn't make it true

There are defensive uses of firearms

A subset of that is uses where a round is chambered

A subset of that is uses where a round is fired

A subset of that is uses where the round hits a person

A subset of that is uses where the person hit dies

You're comparing all fatal accidents, domestic homicides, and suicides to a sub-sub-sub-subset of defensive firearms uses.

[Whovian]

24. Right. You wave a gun and the perp runs away. Got it.

[Recursion]

25. Well, in fact, that does happen

So does "you chamber a round and the robber goes away".

So does "you shoot into the air and he goes away".

So does "you shoot him in the arm and he goes away and lives".

All of these happen; it would be difficult to figure out how often. The NRA would have me believe tens of millions of times a year, which seems dubious. You would have me believe "never", which also seems dubious.

[Whovian]

29. Okay, that's just nuts.

Brandishing weapons does not stop crime except in fantasy novels and television.

[Recursion]

30. Well, no, I've actually seen a crime stopped by a brandished weapon

So, in fact, I can tell you plainly you are wrong.

[safeinOhio]

39. Brandishing a gun is

Illigal in many states.

Most break ins are when the homeowner is not home. Then they steal all of your guns. With cheap home security, you and your guns are safer. No one dies and there is no blood to clean up.

[Recursion]

40. This was a rent-a-cop who drew on two teenagers beating the crap out of an old man

They ignored him when he told them to stop, and ran off when he drew his weapon.

[Maraya1969]

158. So this was a trained person. Most people in this country are not.

[Recursion]

161. Umm... no. This was a rent-a-cop

Their level of training is appalling. It's not as if people buy a pistol and immediately get a concealed-carry permit; that usually requires more range time and training than even normal beat cops get.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

47. Having a dog is a good common sense alternative to having a gun.

Most thieves will pass by your house and try something easier.

[Cosmocat]

175. A dog is an INFINITELY better deterent

even an ankle biter.

WTF wants to do any kind of criminal activity with a dog barking like nuts?

Unless you have a sign saying you have firearms on the premises, it is not even a deterrent.

What good does a firearm do you if you happen to be in the shower, bathroom or another part of the house if someone breaks in while you are there? Unless you have heat packed in every room.

Certainly, if I was someone intent on doing personal harm to a women, I would wait until she was in the shower. A man, when he was leaving at an odd hour for work or something. Door closed and locked, and that would be game, set, match.

We have a wonderful 60+ pound doodle, very loving and affectionate dog, and overall very well behaved and quiet. We did not get her for this reason, and I don't live in fear. But, she is a wonderful protector. Just the right amount of attention and protectiveness. Also, has a really long coat, so she looks a good 30 pounds heavier.

She sleeps in our bedroom and will even grow and bark if we startle her. I suspect anyone who was obvious enough not to scope us out and walked in at night on us, would make a pretty hasty exit once she got on the job.

Makes me feel better for the wife and girls when I am not around.

I am in no hurry to have a fire arm. There is a part of me that I would like to have one in the house just in case, and I have fired guns and I do enjoy it. Life just seems a lot simpler without them. My wife and I both are tough enough, unless someone had the drop on use anyways, they would have their hands full.

[hack89]

200. Until a criminal takes a crowbar to the dog's head

which is what happened to a friend of mine. Dogs are just as easy to kill or maim as humans are.

And of course many people can't own dogs for various reasons.

[Cosmocat]

207. except

if I am present, the moment this criminal takes a crowbar to my dog's head he gets my bat on his ...

If no one is around, the sainted firearm will belong the the criminal ...

[hack89]

208. Lets hope the sainted firearm does not belong to the criminal

if he visits while you are home.

Bringing a baseball bat to a gun fight may not be the wisest thing if you really entertain notions of mixing it up with an intruder. Locking yourself in your bedroom may be the wisest course until the cops show up.

[Cosmocat]

220. WTF are you talking about?

You are the one who bought up the crowbar.

Me, my bat or whatever else I can get my hands on and my dog vs a dickhead with a crowbar, I like my chances to end up putting his own crowbar to his head by the time it is over.

We don't own any firearms.

Someone comes into our home with a gun we are fucked.

Then again, if a meteor hits our house, we are fucked.

About the same chances.

[Recursion]

37. Here are some media reports of brandishing that prevented crimes *IN THE PAST 3 MONTHS*

http://www.ajc.com/ap/ap/georgia/armed-veteran-in-wheelchair-thwarts-home-invasion/nT6hf/

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/01/grandma-with-gun-halts-store-robbery/

http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Homeowners-Scare-Off-Burglars/7yaLSXAvCUGBkwgAZpGO4g.cspx
(Oh, hey, that one was with an evil AR-15, too!)

http://www.reflector.com/crimerescue/cafe-manger-fends-robbers-1483289

http://www.kvue.com/news/state/182000811.html

http://www.frontiersman.com/news/big-lake-men-subdue-serial-burglar/article_58304b3c-3ab3-11e2-af2e-001a4bcf887a.html

http://www.wlox.com/story/20307939/sheriff-armed-george-co-homeowner-holds-burglar-for-deputies

http://trib.com/news/local/casper/casper-police-nail-salon-customer-packs-heat-gunman-leaves/article_e3236de2-6756-539a-92b0-ae3aaf64c900.html

http://www.woai.com/mostpopular/story/Armed-bystander-stops-stabbing-outside-school/6zTYMpy8pUOeyrbElEBOTQ.cspx

These were all in the past three months, and all involved a crime being stopped simply by a brandished weapon.

[Robb]

50. Nine whole stories in 3 months? Wow.

Even if every one is 100% accurate, you realize that's a pretty piss-poor number, compared with even a small subset of gunshot injuries, right?

[beevul]

102. Nine that were covered by media. Do you think the media covers them all? N/T

[Robb]

106. How underreported are these events?

Because I can find three times that many stories of kids being shot in less than a week.

Are they underreported by a ratio of 40:1? Is the "liberal media" hiding all these stories?

I was born at night, but it wasn't LAST night.

[Recursion]

109. Look upthread. The claim was it NEVER happens.

This was nine incidents in three months. We agree that is more than never, yes?

[Robb]

113. A guy fell 39 stories and lived, too.

An event that informed public policy exactly how much?

[beevul]

147. Thats a very good question.

Upthread is was stated correctly that there are several types of defensive uses of firearms:

"A subset of that is uses where a round is chambered"

Do you think the media is aware of, and reports them all?

A subset of that is uses where a round is fired

Do you think the media is aware of, and reports them all?

A subset of that is uses where the round hits a person

Do you think the media is aware of, and reports them all?

A subset of that is uses where the person hit dies

Do you think the media is aware of, and reports them all?

What you "can find" and what actually happens, where less than sensational news is concerned, are two distinctly different things, is the point.

Do you think that which isn't reported doesn't happen?

Doj estimates a great many defensive gun uses, and even if they're exagerated by a factor of ten, thats still far many more than media reports.

[Robb]

156. So on your planet, for every kid verifiably shot, 40 people rack their shotguns unheralded?

That sounds, forgive me, completely insane.

The mental gymnastics required to believe what you just wrote would impress the nuttiest of birthers.

[beevul]

215. If i take that position, I'll let you know.

Until then, apply it to someone that actually holds it.

We're a nation of 80 million plus gun owners.

Whats insane, is thinking that a population of 80 million only engages in defense of self with a firearm through simple display, or any of the other degrees between simple display and firing a shot at an assailant, 9 times in 90 days, or thinking that the media covers them all.

In 1994 the doj estimated 1.5 million defensive uses of firearms, http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/165476.txt

Even if they're off by a factor of ten, thats still far more than anyone sees covered by media.

That point, you have neither adressed, or refuted.

[Maraya1969]

159. Yea and how many people are dead from the firing of these guns in the last 3 months?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/01/us-gun-deaths-sandy-hook_n_2602074.html

1,280 dead. 9 saved by showing your gun.

[Recursion]

162. The claim was brandishing never stops a crime

This was one page of google results, with the times where the victim fired, even if it didn't hit anyone, removed.

[spin]

41. In my family handguns stopped two attacks and no one was injured or killed. ...

In the 1920s my mother got off a bus after work to walk home in a fairly rural area of Pennsylvania. A man who had been hiding behind some bushes rushed here with the probable intention of rape. Fortunately she had a small .22 caliber revolver in her purse and her hand was on it. She was able to draw the S&W LadySmith revolver and fired two shots over the head of her attacker. He ran.

In the 1980s my daughter stopped an intruder who was forcing open the sliding glass door in the kitchen of our home. She pointed a large caliber revolver at him and he also ran. A burglar alarm was sounding at the time and there was also a 60 pound black lab in the home. (The dog was useless as she was very gentle and terrified of loud noises such as the alarm. She hid.)

It is unrealistic to state that a firearm can not be used for legitimate self defense without shooting some one just as it just as unrealistic to say that merely owning a firearm will guarantee your safety.

[Whovian]

44. I understand. Once I held off troops of Russian and Cuban Commies

in the hills with a crossbow and a band of others. Those things happen all the time.

[the devil]

52. .

WOLVERINES!!!

[spin]

59. While these are only anecdotal tales they actually did happen. ...

If my mother would not have had that small revolver in her purse, I might be not be posting here today.

You can do a quick Google search and find numerous stories in which a firearm was used successfully for legitimate self defense and attackers were shot or killed. It's much harder to find stories about those incidents in which an attack was stopped and no shots were fired as they are not considered news worthy. That doesn't mean that they do not happen. The simple fact that the news media feels "blood leads."

While there are few reliable studies on defensive gun use some do exist.

* A 1994 survey conducted by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that Americans use guns to frighten away intruders who are breaking into their homes about 498,000 times per year.[20]

* A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

• 34% had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"
• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they "knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun"
• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been "scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim"[22]
http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

Obviously we need some reliable updated studies but it is also a fact that violent crime and gun violence in our nation have been decreasing significantly in recent years.

Steady Decline in Major Crime Baffles Experts
By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.
Published: May 23, 2011

The number of violent crimes in the United States dropped significantly last year, to what appeared to be the lowest rate in nearly 40 years, a development that was considered puzzling partly because it ran counter to the prevailing expectation that crime would increase during a recession.

In all regions, the country appears to be safer. The odds of being murdered or robbed are now less than half of what they were in the early 1990s, when violent crime peaked in the United States. Small towns, especially, are seeing far fewer murders: In cities with populations under 10,000, the number plunged by more than 25 percent last year.

***snip***

Nationally, murder fell 4.4 percent last year. Forcible rape — which excludes statutory rape and other sex offenses — fell 4.2 percent. Aggravated assault fell 3.6 percent. Property crimes — including burglary, larceny, motor vehicle theft and arson — fell 2.8 percent, after a 4.6 percent drop the year before.

Joseph Goldstein contributed reporting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/24/us/24crime.html?_r=0

A good percentage of the gun violence in our nation is a result of gang warfare between drug gangs fighting over turf and profit. Chicago is a prime example. We lost the War on Drugs decades ago and if we had the commonsense to legalize some drugs such as marijuana we could take much of the profit motive out of dealing illegal drugs and reduce gun violence.

Both sides of the gun control debate ignore the fact the violence is and has been decreasing in recent years. Gun manufacturers and the NRA are insisting that more people should buy a firearm for self defense. Gun control advocates argue that the rising tide of violence in our nation means that we have to have much stronger gun control legislation and some firearms should be banned.

While I can mention stories about how a firearm can be used for self defense using examples in my family I could also tell incidents from my own family where a firearm has been misused and a tragedy resulted. There is a lot of truth in the statement that a firearm in the home is more likely to lead to a tragedy than to be used for home defense.

In any rational discussion about issues such as gun control both sides need to accept reality. There is no doubt that a firearm can effectively be used for defense without injuries resulting just as there is also no doubt that firearms are EXTREMELY dangerous items to have in your home.

[LAGC]

152. Tell that to my friend who stopped a robbery in progress at the convenience store where he worked.

The perps brandished their knives and demanded the money in the till.

My friend drew his concealed 1911 and pointed it at them.

It took them a few seconds before one of them finally yelled: "Oh shit! Let's get out of here!"

They fled, my friend called the police. Crime averted. No one hurt or killed.

Ironically, my friend was given he ultimatum of either not bringing the gun back to work or resigning.

He chose the latter. Don't blame him one bit.

[kurtzapril4]

167. You're kidding, right?

Unless I'm in a TV show that I don't know about, I have personally seen a brandished weapon stop a breaking and entering. I personally dislike guns, and don't own one, but I was damn happy the person I was with had one when someone was breaking into his house.

[Whovian]

170. No, I'm not.

We do not live in the fantasy land of attacks from whomever every five minutes.

[kurtzapril4]

172. Neither do I.

I don't get attacked every five minutes. But it did happen, I was there.

[Lizzie Poppet]

74. Repeating that bullshit ad nauseam...

...doesn't make it smell any better.

[Whovian]

89. You were replying to a post that I don't believe I have typed before.

Is it that you don't like the message or that you just wanted to be ugly towards me?

[Lizzie Poppet]

107. Didn't claim you had.

You're repeating bullshit that others have spewed before. See how that works...?

[Whovian]

110. So you are saying that anything that detracts from the beauty of guns is bullshit?

[Lizzie Poppet]

111. Nice strawman. Does it keep the birds away from your garden?

I hope so, because as an attempt at discussion or debate, it fails miserably. Don't try putting words in my mouth; you're spectacularly under-qualified.

[Whovian]

112. Strawman? I made no argument I asked a question.

[Lizzie Poppet]

114. You posited me saying something that cannot be (rationally) inferred from my actual statements.

That's indeed an implied strawman. Try and keep up.

Or don't. I think we're done here. You're just playing your usual little trollish games instead of trying to have a useful discussion about a genuine problem. Grow up a fair bit (and go back to school and pay a little attention this time around), and perhaps we can talk.

[Whovian]

115. What universe are you living in? The entire thread is up for all to see that I posited nothing

attributable to you????

[apocalypsehow]

123. I think our friend Lizzie might need anger management help.

[Whovian]

125. At least.

[apocalypsehow]

130. And such a transparency page for our friend Lizzie! Highlights:

"And you are a ranting, insulting obssessive"

"Juror #1 is an utter doucherocket."

"Welcome to ignore, OP asshole..."

Oh, but wait! Lizzie is gonna show us liberals a thing or two!

"In the mean time, I'll continue calling the worst of them on the pungent hypocrisy of behaving as they do while calling themselves "liberal."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=271787&sub=trans

Such a funny little show being put on for our edification.

[apocalypsehow]

117. Tsk, tsk. Look who just keeps hazzing the sadz...

Grow up a fair bit (and go back to school and pay a little attention this time around), and perhaps we can talk."

Even got us some big-time Projection going. Funny stuff.

[apocalypsehow]

121. There, there. It ain't as bad as all that, is it?

Calm yourself.

[Whovian]

122. You don't even know how this bit of banter is making you and your cause look.

[apocalypsehow]

126. Much anger in the young man - just the kind of specimen we need toting a pistol around, eh?

[Lizzie Poppet]

128. You're as wrong in your silly attempt as psychoanalysis...

...as you are in guessing my gender. Anything else you'd like to fail miserably at tonight?

[apocalypsehow]

131. There, there. It's going to be alright, sir, I can assure you.

[apocalypsehow]

136. *UPDATE*: add another Angry-gram to the 'ole Transparency Page:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2302706

[Maraya1969]

160. How many of these can people get before they are asked to leave?

[11 Bravo]

177. That gives her 6 hides in the last 90 days, or exactly half as many as the OP.

So who's the one with issues?

[pintobean]

221. Do you has a sad

now that your Wholigan buddy has been PPRed as a troll? The two of you look very cozy in this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=290284&sub=trans

[apocalypsehow]

222. That's nice. n/t.

[apocalypsehow]

133. "I think we're done here" - Or not. *UPDATE* - we ARE done here.

[apocalypsehow]

135. "In the evening; gettin' angry; ain't we got fun?" And the transparency page to prove it!

All sorts!

"And you are a ranting, insulting obssessive" (Sic)

"Juror #1 is an utter doucherocket. (Sic)"

"Welcome to ignore, OP asshole..."

Oh, but wait! Lizzie is gonna show us liberals a thing or two!

"In the mean time, I'll continue calling the worst of them on the pungent hypocrisy of behaving as they do while calling themselves "liberal."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=271787&sub=trans

Such a funny little show being put on for our edification, my fellow DU'ers!

*EDIT UPDATE*: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2302706

Another Angry-gram gets sent to the hostility bin.

[nick of time]

178. Just as this one does.

Last edited Sun Feb 3, 2013, 05:12 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=290284&sub=trans

Uh Oh, don't look now,
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=290284

[11 Bravo]

209. BWAHAHAHAHA! I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did.

That one's sole reason for existence was to either stir shit or fling it. It was only a matter of time before it self-immolated.

[nick of time]

210. Yep.

I said that a couple of days ago. Glad he's gone.

[apocalypsehow]

219. Just as these, errrr, ummmm, "two" do:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=286446

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=269047

Welcome back!

[Ghost in the Machine]

218. You must have never owned a firearm, nor read the Owners Manual if you have..

Scroll down to page 4 on this link and begin reading from there, and then come back and show us whee, exactly, it says to use this weapon to kill or maim.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3703978/Smith-Wesson-revolvers-owners-manual

I challenge you to find ANY user manual, for ANY firearm, that specifically tells you to point that weapon at another human being for the purpose of killing or maiming them.

Go to Google, type in the gun name you want, followed by "owners manual pdf". I'll be waiting

Thanks in advance,

Ghost

[GreenStormCloud]

17. The Kellerman study has long since been debunked.

Kellerman counted the burglar's gun as a gun in the house.

Further, he did not distinguish between lawfully owned guns and illegally owned guns. Living with a violent criminal who has an illegal gun is very dangerous.

He counted only corpses. It didn't count if the resident wounded, or scared off the burglar.

[Whovian]

23. This wasn't Kellerman's study.

[nick of time]

28. Then post a link to the study you seem to be embracing.

[Whovian]

32. The New England Journal of Medicine.

[nick of time]

33. Thanks. nt.

[SayWut]

43. Say again.

Those numbers that the NEJM quotes are from Kellermans discredited "research".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Kellermann

[Lord Magus]

61. Like "SayWut" said, that IS Kellerman's study.

And Kellerman himself has backed away from the "43 times more likely" claim. He now says it's 2.7 times more likely. But given how wildly inaccurate his original conclusion was, I have my doubts about if he's right this time either.

[Incitatus]

129. 2.7 might be accurate.

I wonder how many of the gun owners in that study left their guns in accessible to children and how many of them had taken classes on gun safety. Additionally, how many incidents took place where the armed intruder got the best of the armed victim (that might have died anyway).

[Major Nikon]

213. 43:1 wasn't the risk ratio

It was simply the ratio of suicide, homicide, and accidental death uses of a firearm compared to self defense killings.

The 2.7 figure refers to an increased risk ratio.

[cantbeserious]

26. Guns - The Love That Keeps On Giving - Round After Round

eom

[mokawanis]

31. Over 1,200 killed by guns since Sandy Hook

Including a 4-year-old shot by a 6-year-old, a 58-year-old shot by a 4-year-old, and a 2-year-old child who accidentally shot himself.

Sure, guns make us safe.

[Whovian]

34. Thank you. The pro gunners here are terribly vile.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

36. WTH? So everytime a woman is attacked and would have chosen to defend herself but

was prohibited by law would make you pro-rape. That would be pretty vile, wouldn't it?

Enough of the cheap rhetoric already.

[Lordquinton]

49. Every woman you speak of

could have had a gun, but they didn't. No one has been prevented by law in owning guns, you are beating a straw horse, please stop pitting rape victims against dead children.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

54. "No one has been prevented by law in owning guns"

DC v Heller

McDonald v Chicago

Any of those ring a bell?

[Lordquinton]

62. No broader a statement than

"Gun control is rape enabling"

[Nuclear Unicorn]

63. So when other posters run around saying pro-RKBA advocates

have the blood of the innocent on their hands to you ride herd on them also? Because that's who I was mocking. I assume you know that and just don't like it but I'm curious if your principles are objective or subjective.

BTW -- be careful about using quotation marks unless you're actually quoting someone verbatum. An on-looker might try to reference the presumed citation and find your scholarship lacking.

What I actually said (for such interested parties) is --

So HuffPo is now decidedly pro-stalker, pro-rapist

Or is hyperbole the sole providence of the anti-self defense league?

It will be noted that in the body of the post I ackowledged the subject line was hyperbole and if I've used hyperbole once I've used it a million times as a rhetorical device.

I'm not sure where "rape enabling" was ever written by me. Using words I never used, lifting things out of context and applying presumed principles unequally seems to be the mark of poor sportsmanship.

[Lordquinton]

70. My mistake.

You said "Pro-rape" not "Rape enabling" worlds of difference there.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

72. And what does the body of the post say?

[Lordquinton]

78. Says that I got the Semantics wrong

"I'm not sure where "rape enabling" was ever written by me." you said "Pro-rape" instead, I don't really distinguish the two because they are both vile and untrue in this circumstance.

You've reduced an argument about gun regulations down to semantics, which is what always happens, be it the difference between "Rape Enablers" and "Pro-rape" or Assault weapons" and "automatic weapons" it's all a distraction from the real issues.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

88. You are determined to be a dishonest about this as possible, aren't you?

I meant the post about hyperbole.

[Lordquinton]

103. What about it?

You said they were being hyperbolic, I objected to your comparison of Gun regulations to being pro-rape. Nothing dishonest. I used quotes inappropriately, but it was in essence what you were saying. I made a mistake, and admitted to it.

Now back to the issue at hand. Being for gun regulations is NOT pro-rape. You could actually draw a tenuous case for it enabling rape, but pro? no chance.

[Dash87]

100. Until the attacker punches your lights out, and then kills you with your own gun.

Everyone seems to forget here that attacks can have an element of surprise to them. By the time you take your gun out and get it ready to shoot (assuming it doesn't need to be loaded with bullets in the first place, causing more wasted time), you could be knocked out, stabbed, subdued, etc.

I carry pepper spray for safety, with the ultimate goal of being able to run away and nothing more. You don't need to load it, and I can have it accessible within a second. If it accidentally falls out of my pocket, some little kid can't kill themselves with it. It will never kill me or anyone else in my home.

Why do people feel the need to carry concealed guns around for something that has a very high probability of never happening? It's not like we live in some war-torn country where everybody's shooting at each other. It seems overly paranoid to me.

[apocalypsehow]

91. +1,000. Spot-on observation, and 100% accurate.

[RZM]

35. Well at least she votes Democratic

According to the text at the very bottom.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

38. And she doesn't look 30 years old, as is the 1983 Kellerman study is with all its massaged data n/t

[pintobean]

42. That's not the original text

that went with the image. It was a pro 2nd image from 2009 or earlier.

I don't want to post the original here because...
well, you know.

[sulphurdunn]

45. I keep guns in my home

encase Ted Nugent shows up with Wayne Lapierre.

[ileus]

46. She needs better training.

[mokawanis]

48. But she won't get it

because she's convinced she can handle a gun safely. Maybe she's one of those people who posts videos on youtube where someone accidentally fires a weapon and everyone standing around has a big laugh about it. I know that isn't a fair representation of most gun-owners, but there are way too many instances of people shooting someone because they lack the proper training and common sense, and that's one of the reasons I don't like being around people who are armed.

[pintobean]

51. Then again

maybe she's a soldier (or former) and is very proficient with firearms. I can't tell from that picture.

[Whovian]

53. You don't even know, do you?

[pintobean]

56. Enlighten me.

[Whovian]

57. I don't think I can. Pissing in the wind comes to mind.

[pintobean]

58. So, you don't know.

Just pissing.

Got it.

[Warpy]

55. She'd decrease the threat to her family

if she'd break that thing down and lock the pieces up and then lock any ammo up in a different place, bringing it all out during hunting season or for a weekend target practice session or whatever.

The threat to self and family is mostly from the yahoos who want to keep a loaded gun out and quickly available. All it takes is one vicious quarrel and somebody ends up dead.

They all think that they are being reasonable, responsible gun owners, too. Until somebody ends up dead.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

60. From a perspective of 71 years, our culture has gotten more fearful and violent,

it's not just the amount of guns, or the type of guns. It's the conditioning of believing in the need of violence to solve our problems. It's the believing in the need have a weapon at all times to defend yourself. An example would be, how we could possibly do without cellphones or GPS systems and yet, for the majority of my life we all got along just fine, the same holds true for guns, the belief that you need one to defend yourself is relatively new thinking. We just didn't think that way in the fifties and sixties.
Our culture needs to be dialed back to be more peaceful and less fearful.
Stop thinking that you need the newest corporate toys, use your critical thinking and learn to say no to fear.

[Whovian]

134. Thank you for a moment of clarity.

[barbtries]

66. i almost didn't click on the thread.

not another gun thread aaaarrrgh! but i'm glad i did. thanks for posting.

[Whovian]

92. So glad someone appreciates it.

[apocalypsehow]

69. You got 40 Recs, but the same tiresome little ban of pro-NRA shillmeister's gave it their all to

hijack your thread. Those 'pro-gun progressives'* must never sleep...




*( )

[Skip Intro]

71. Are you serious with that sig line? Support of 2nd Amendment is racist?

Really?

[Lizzie Poppet]

75. Possibly the single most fuckwitted thing I've ever read on DU.

And that takes some doing. But I've come to expect no better from all but a handful of the anti-gun crowd here. Most are hyper-emotional quasi-trolls with the critical thinking skills of a cabbage. I have no doubt the .sig was meant in all seriousness.

[apocalypsehow]

77. Oh, look who haz a sad.

[Lizzie Poppet]

85. Nope. I haz a LMAO, actually.

[apocalypsehow]

87. Sure. n/t.

[Skip Intro]

81. Oh yeah, it's meant seriously.

Amazing, isn't it?

Your description is fantastically accurate, btw.

[apocalypsehow]

86. You tell 'em, Skip!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1240192896#post35

[apocalypsehow]

76. Are you having another "party"? Perhaps you can alert on it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=193264

"Last night I had a couple of people over and drinks were flowing and it was, let's say, kinda smoky"



Further "how-to" demonstration here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=192973

"Alerted by Skip Intro: The statement of purpose for this forum says it is in poart to discuagg issue gtwettn oher duers but this is talkinb bad about other duers and I' like cjeekdgg"

[Skip Intro]

79. You're trying to deflect from your own sig line?

Wow - you do realize it's right under everything you post, don' t you?

[apocalypsehow]

80. Better get on that alert, Skip. n/t.

[Skip Intro]

82. Yeah, ok. Have a nice rest and take it easy.

Hope you feel better soon.

[apocalypsehow]

84. "it is in poart to discuagg issue gtwettn oher duers but this is talkinb bad about other duers

and I' like cjeekdgg" <----------Show 'em how it's done, Skip!

[Whovian]

93. Thanks. There seems to be a vendetta of sorts.

[apocalypsehow]

97. And I apologize that two of the posters currently stalking me decided to bring their vendetta

into your thread, and attempted to derail the discussion by launching vicious personal attacks. I just laugh it off - such pedestrian juvenile antics rather amuse me; and I'm used to being followed around by the company in question in any event - but I do regret that their personal animus against me has led them to mar your thread with their anger and resentment.

Again, good OP; thanks for posting it.

[Whovian]

98. LOL... Not your fault I believe they were here already

They delight in getting posts like this locked and grave dancing.

[randome]

73. Because keeping them on the front lawn would be counterproductive?

[Deep13]

104. Yeah, the neighbors will complain about anything.

Uncut lawn, dog barking, lethal weapons within reach of children--anything!

[Incitatus]

127. It depends on the person's location and circumstances.

Some people live in really bad areas and some have created dangerous enemies just because they did the right thing in a situation. I fully support increased gun control, but banning people from even having a handgun in their house I can't go along with.

[Buzz Clik]

132. Look at it this way: if you kill yourself or your family with your weapon...

... then you have made certain that an intruder cannot harm them/you.

So, it still works out.

[flvegan]

137. Another thread full of stupid.

But then, I consider the source.

[MessiahRp]

142. Bigger question: How paranoid are gun owners to think that they are ALWAYS at risk of a shootout?

What are the stats on odds that your home will be broken into? More or slightly less than the chance that you'll be struck by lightning?

Where do those odds go with you add "armed assailant" to that equation? Probably even greater long shot odds.

What about needing the guns to fend off the Government? We did that in the Revolutionary War. The people that did that in the Civil War were actually the bad guys as determined by history. Other than that? Nada.

This reminds me of when white people I know (disclosure, I am also white) clutch their pearls about going into the city or worse into certain neighborhoods. Their paranoia tells them without a doubt that because they are innocent middle class white folks, they are for sure going to be _______ (robbed/stabbed/shot/sexually assaulted). Believe me, I saw this when I lived in Milwaukee and the dept. I worked for at AT&T was out in super white Pewaukee and as soon as there were rumors of us moving to the downtown office, which BTW was a really nice office in a fairly affluent section of downtown, they started clutching their fucking pearls.

The reality is this: Even if you go deep in the hood, it's all about how you act there. If you're an asshole, sure you're going to be in more danger. If you act suspicious, yeah they're going to be watching you closer and might make a move out of self preservation. But I am Whitey McWhiterton and I have been in the worst part of Milwaukee many, many times and when I minded my own business and showed people respect guess what... nada. No guns. No harsh words. No dirty looks. Nothing.

And this is the situation at hand. White people are the ones loading up on guns. Out of irrational paranoid fear of minorities. Remember, the ones that "took their jobs" (because they're too fucking stupid to understand corporate white assholes outsourced them) or the ones that "forced them to speak Spanish" (if only we were all bilingual) or the ones that "forced a black president from another country onto them and who is trying to destroy the Constitution to give everything to lazy welfare queens" (my head hurts incredibly bad from piecing this one together).

And not all gun nuts are racist mind you but let's play to the fact that they are in fact paranoid. They defend armed "self defense" aka killing someone else, as their unalienable right. Chances are very, very high that they'll never ever have a single thing stolen from their house or that they will ever experience a break in. You want to protect yourself from that the right way? Dump your murder weapon, buy a home security system and give up a little cash for some additional renters/homeowners insurance so your precious material items can be itemized and replaced.

Paranoia, the world in which gun nuts live, is the real mental disorder we speak of when we mention mental illness in this equation. And because these people are mentally ill how is it even logical to argue with them? They are after all, mentally ill.

We're all out to get you, you see.

[Whovian]

145. +1000

[spin]

146. While I agree with most of your post but I have a question. ...

You state:

Paranoia, the world in which gun nuts live, is the real mental disorder we speak of when we mention mental illness in this equation. And because these people are mentally ill how is it even logical to argue with them? They are after all, mentally ill.

Would you define me as a "gun nut?"

I own over 20 firearms and have at least 2000 rounds of ammo in different calibers in my home. I have enjoyed target shooting handguns for 40 years and through that period of time collected a number of revolvers and pistols all of which have each been used to punch holes in paper targets.

I do not hunt but I have a Florida concealed weapons permit and I often carry. I own no firearms that would be considered an assault weapon and none have a magazine capacity of over 10 rounds. I have no problem with a semi-automatic rifle such as the AR-15 being owned by civilians but I personally have no use for one as I live inside a small town and do not target shoot rifles. If I move to a far more rural environment I may decide to buy an AR-15 for home defense as I would not endanger my neighbors. Since I live in Florida I might use an AR-15 to clear my property of hogs as they are considered pest as they are not native to the environment and cause considerable damage.

I am aware that violent crime is at a 40 year low but crime does still happen. A firearm to me is the last layer of defense when all else has failed. I would only use a firearm for self defense when there was absolutely no other choice and I never expect that I will ever find myself in such as situation. I try to secure my home to make it as safe as possible and I practice "situational awareness" while in public which mainly means that I don't walk down dark streets with a cell phone glued to my ear but am instead alert to my surroundings. If I sense any danger I simply leave the environment. The best way to avoid injury in a fight is not to get into one.

I often legally carry a firearm but I realize that I am not a cop and I definitely am not a vigilante. I definitely have no desire to ever have to use a firearm for self defense as even if I do I use one in legitimate self defense I realize that I will suffer significant psychological problems that will require professional consoling. I currently sleep well at night and have absolutely no desire to suffer nightmares due to my actions in a life or death encounter.

I know of incidents in my own family where a firearm may have saved a life but I also have personally experienced the tragedy that a misuse of a firearm can cause. There is absolutely no doubt that firearms are extremely lethal and a tragic accident can occur even to a person with good firearm safety training when firearm safety training is ignored. Basically there are two groups of gun owners. First there are those who have had an accidental discharge and secondly there are those who will. The prime factor is if the muzzle of the weapon is pointed in a safe direction.

I have no fear that our government will turn into a dictatorship or a tyranny any time in the near future but I believe that civilian ownership of firearms might be a deterrent. That may be true today but may not be so in the future.

I definitely am not a racist and I have walked thorough Back neighborhoods without fear or problems. My family had a Black teenager living in our home for over a year after he was kicked out of his home. We helped him obtain the identification to get a driver's license obtain a job. We often try to help others and sometimes we succeed and sometimes we fail. Few Christians would consider us to be Christian and many tell us that ultimately we all will live in Hell but we do our best to help others in need.

So once again do I fit your definition of a "gun nut"?

[Whovian]

149. If you own over 20 firearms I would consider you a threat to public safety.

A link in the chain of civilization waiting to break.

Unless you are in the business of buying and selling guns I would consider you a "gun nut."

[Duckhunter935]

154. How about me

2 pistols of different calibers and and 1 bolt action rifle and one AR-15. All use to shoot paper targets for the last 30 years. All stored in a gun safe. I have about 1000 rounds and have a CCW but almost never carry.

[MessiahRp]

165. 4 guns seems like overkill to me as well...

I mean think about this: Say you had a pistol for home protection (again, you'll likely never need it so the very act of buying a gun for that reason is in fact paranoia). Say you had a basic rifle and a shotgun for different types of hunting. That's three. Why the need for an AR-15?

See my point is if you really, really feel the need to shoot targets with those guns, why aren't we licensing gun clubs to carry X amount of these and have them available for check out/rental for shooting times AT the club? This way these weapons aren't carried off premises without some sort of threat of license revocation.

The need to have a CCW permit itself comes from a compulsive need to carry out the belief that at some point that paranoid delusion of an attack will happen and somehow you, not the Police, paid security not anyone else, YOU will be the superhero to stop the bad guys. I'd say the very idea of wanting CCW is paranoid delusion and mental illness.

There just is no need to own an AR-15 ever.

[Recursion]

199. The CCW makes it much easier to buy a gun

A lot of people get them with no intention to carry, because it makes the process of buying a gun much simpler (the dealer just has to check that it hasn't been revoked, rather than doing the full background check).

We could replicate that by simply having a Federal firearms operator's license. In fact, I think that's a great idea.

There just is no need to own an AR-15 ever.

It's interesting that you seem more OK with the handguns than with the AR-15, in a thread about the importance of paying attention to statistics. It's a safe, reliable, low-power rifle.

[Duckhunter935]

201. Well here is my answer

Two pistols of different calibers. One is a smaller caliber if I decide to carry. Big heavy pistols are hard to conceal per law and are not comfortable. One bolt action WWII rifle for target shooting. It is 7.62X54R and can tear up the shoulder after 50-60 rounds. AR-15 platform for target shooting as this is the type of weapon I have been trained on and has little recoil. Much better on my shoulder. Benefit of this platform is I can change out the upper receiver and fire 22LR ammunition that is very cheap without buying another gun. All are maintained it a 500 pound gun safe.

[spin]

211. I suspected you would just like most people who have little understanding ...

of the gun culture. Most of the regular shooters I know who have been shooting as long as I have also have a collection of firearms. Some have a smaller collection and others a much larger one.

Be aware I accumulated my collection over 40 years and I rarely sell one of my weapons. I also know some regular shooters who are a firearm at a gun show and shoot it for a couple of months. After they grow bored with this firearm they return to the show and trade it with a dealer for another firearm or sell it as a private seller to another individual at the show.

I keep my firearms for decades and most have had thousands and thousands of rounds run through the barrel. I will only sell a firearm to a person who I personally know and who has a Florida concealed carry permit.

By the way I do not find the term "gun nut" insulting in the least and I do understand how others who have little familiarity with people who enjoy the shooting sports might view me as dangerous. Perhaps they are right but I have a spotless police record and held a government security clearance from the time I was in the Air Force in the mid 1960s until I retired seven years ago.

However I am not defending myself from any criticism. Your opinion of me is interesting but largely irrelevant. You have a right to your views and I have a right to mine and that's the way it should be in a democracy as long neither of us is violating any laws.

[MessiahRp]

164. What is your reasoning for the need to carry at all times?

Why do you need 20 different guns, especially if not for hunting?

Sure fits the profile of someone who feels paranoid enough to carry a weapon to thwart the attack that likely will never come, to me.

[spin]

214. If I had an reliable app for this iPad that would remind me that today was a day ...

where I would need to carry a firearm while in public I might leave my weapon behind on the other days. Unfortunately none exists.

In my 67 years of existence on this planet I have learned a few lessons. One is that life comes at you very fast and often you have no reason to ever expect what lit will throw at you. While you can never be prepared for everything there is some wisdom in being ready for the unexpected.

I lived in a very violent neighborhood in Tampa for many years. I've watched cops chasing suspects on foot with drawn firearms several times in walking distance of my Tampa home and even right in front of my house.

I broke up a daytime robbery of my neighbor's house and chased four much younger men off. I'm not bragging about the incident as while I was successful I could have been shot. One thief had my neighbor's Colt .45 ACP pistol and tried to load it by racking the slide when he seen me coming. Fortunately he wasn't experienced with the weapon and had a misfeed. I should note that while I had firearms available I wisely left them behind in my home during the incident.

I have a concealed weapons permit but I carry because I didn't take the time and spend the money for this license to show it off to impress others. A carry permit in Florida is hardly unusual. Over 800,000 Florida residents have one.

You might argue that I should only carry when I go into a dangerous area but when I first got mine I did live in such a place. Several clerks in various establishments within a mile of my home were shot dead during store robberies. A young woman was raped and killed in a hurricane canal behind my house.

There was a drive by shooting two houses from mine but the shooters merely hit a tree and the porch. A year later the police arrested an occupant of that home, who was a gang leader, for the murder of his girl friend. He placed a .38 caliber snub nosed revolver to her head and ended her life. There were witnesses to the incident but they were so afraid of the gang leader that they refused to testify on what actually happened. He claimed the incident was an accident. Convicted of manslaughter he spent a couple of years in jail.

Fortunately I have never had to use any of my firearms for self defense. However my daughter found an intruder breaking in our Tampa home when she walked into the living room to reset the burglar alarm which was sounding. The man was halfway through the slidinf glass door when she drew down on him with one of my large caliber revolvers. He ran.

Some would say that I should have moved to a much safer neighborhood. Maybe I am stubborn or perhaps stupid but I don't let fear rule my life. During the time period when my neighborhood degraded I was closing into the point where the mortgage was paid off. A new home in a much better area would have required far more money than my house was worth. I planned to leave Tampa after I retired so I made the decision to stay in my home until that happened.

Now I live in a much smaller rural town in north Florida. The crime rate is fairly low but still exists. I can walk two blocks from my home and buy any illegal drug that I want on the street but I have no interest in doing so.

A couple of years ago I was out walking a Boston Terrier when a much younger fellow with a limp approached me and asked if I had any money. I felt he was sizing me up so I merely looked him in the eyes, laughed and told him. "I'm just walking this dog. I don't have my wallet on me so you are shit out of luck." Of course I was carrying a .38 snub nosed revolver. The incident ended peacefully.

Since we had a local cop rooming with us I described the individual to him. He replied, "Oh, that guy. We arrest him every time he gets out of jail and put him back in for a couple of years. He'll steal anything of value that your leave outside and has mugged people to get the money to get high." As far as that limp you would not believe how fast he can run when we chase him."

I really do not believe that I will ever have to use my weapon in legitimate self defense and pray that I don't. However having a carry permit and not carrying might tempt the gods above to teach a person a valuable lesson.

[farminator3000]

202. if all gun owners were like you, there wouldn't be a problem!

First there are those who have had an accidental discharge and secondly there are those who will. The prime factor is if the muzzle of the weapon is pointed in a safe direction.

the only thing i'd say would be keeping that many guns in the house would make me nervous as hell-

i'm sure you have a safe or two, i'd be afraid of being forced to open them, myself.

i saw an article where some rich guy in CA got tied up and lost $2 MILLION just in guns!

of course, you don't advertise the fact...what ever happened to armories, anyhoo?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022303754

chip in here ^^^ if you want.

[spin]

216. Interesting thread you linked to. I added a comment. (n/t)

[farminator3000]

217. you might like this one, too.

an interesting perspective from a canadian

Are you free?
When I grew up in the 1950s, I don't think people always locked their doors. We all knew one another and robbery was a rarity. I wouldn't think of leaving my home unlocked today although I am sure the risk of robbery isn't that high. However in speaking with a colleague, he described such a situation continues to exist at his cottage where there is a small community of fellow cottagers. Many leave their places unlocked and robbery is rare if not nonexistent.
http://www.oyetimes.com/views/columns/34513-sandy-hook-gun-control-and-the-right-answer

can i steal your 'two kinds of gun owners' quote?

[Apophis]

183. It must suck for those people to live their lives in constant fear.

[Progressive dog]

150. Don't confuse me with facts, I want my guns

and I have all sorts of reasons for keeping them.
SARCASM

[Whovian]

151. +1 nt

[aandegoons]

155. If you think about it in a certain way than we are better off because of them.

They keep doing themselves in and we get slightly more safe.

[doc03]

166. What about this reason

http://theintelligencer.net/page/content.detail/id/580784/Two-Charged-in-Home-Invasion.html

or this one: http://www.theintelligencer.net/page/content.detail/id/579805/Murder-Suspect-s-Lawyers-Visit-Bellaire-Crime-Scene.html?nav=6125

[amuse bouche]

169. Yup

Irrational are the gun humpers, for they so love their 2nd Amendment

Though wearily, they are clueless as to the meaning of such amendment

[forward4freedom]

180. I think one of the root problems is intolerance

Many rural types are intolerant of city people, minorities and city life.
Many bully types are intolerant of the gifted, introverted and different.
Some of the recent shooters are intolerant of the bully types.(but that doesn't mean that any of the above are more violent than everyone else)

[Duckhunter935]

181. and many of the city/urban types

are intolerant of rural people and do not want them to have the option.

[forward4freedom]

185. Option? to do what? nt

[Duckhunter935]

194. have a weapon

of their choice for what will work for their situation

[forward4freedom]

205. I think the 2nd part is NRA propaganda

and I'm not sure how you get the 1st part.(if they were they wouldn't want to get rid of the 2nd amendment)

[MineralMan]

182. I keep mine in my home, too. Where else would I keep them?

Uff da!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

187. Rec #100

[Dems to Win]

203. Because you are stupid and selfish, like Nancy Lanza

Nate Silver: "Gun ownership rates are inversely correlated with educational attainment."

http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/18/in-gun-ownership-statistics-partisan-divide-is-sharp/