From the beginning, I was against the Iraq War. Most people on this board probably share this view...

K&R

I wonder what we will hear next. That we should go to war with Iran, North Korea perhaps.

protests around the world. I attended several myself in my county. Yet, George W. Bush became a king and made us go to war every much as a king, with absolute powers, would. He and his minions had no intention of ever listening to the will of the people.

They wanted that war. That may have been one reason why they just had to have the presidency.

think you are re-writing history a bit, in order to excuse Democratic Party connivance and perfidy. Remember that pathetic Dick Gebhardt and wuss extraordinaire Tom Daschle met with Bush in the Rose Garden and sealed the kondordat that took Iraq off the table for the 2002 mid-terms. Then such Dems notables as Hillary Clinton and John Kerry voted to give Bush AUMF in Iraq.

Dems are almost equally culpable for Operation Shocking and Awful, imho.

whole of Congress including our sell out politicians, you referenced, who ignored the massive protests of we the people and they still are ignoring us for the most part.

Nation and world against it, Republicans for it.

Remember how the right called us Anti-American for disagreeing with Bush? Called us traitors and the fringe?

turn?

This is so unlike anything I ever thought to see in the country.

Sad, very very sad and it is being done with our names all over it.

3rd party? Me? I'm in a union and often think there should be a Labor Party whose platform and actions protect the right of workers to be organized. But I'd also go for a Progressive or Liberal type party too.........

there was nothing that would dissuade GWB for going ahead with his plans. It's didn't matter what the weapons inspectors found or didn't find. It's didn't matter what Saddam did or didn't do about the demands that were made. All that mattered was that the WOT had resulted in high approval ratings for GWB and his ego demanded escalation so he could prove to Poppy that he was the better President.

you would never know, watching the corporate whores of the media) and it didn't do one damned bit of good. I cannot count how many people I no longer speak to because of what is being done in our names. We will be paying a very heavy price for our sins for a long time to come.

tbe media whores were ever going to mention that little fact.

My wife made up a sign that said, "United, My Ass!" We got a lot of laughs out of that, as out of our sign that said, "Support our Oops!"

These are very dark times for our country.

I was against war in Iraq because it was CLEAR that Iraq was not involved in 9/11.

My objection had nothing to do with "impersonal war" or any such psycho-babble. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Period. There were no WMDs and this was KNOWN.

You can claim that drones will cause blow back. They certainly might. But I doubt full scale invasions, like in Iraq, would result in smaller levels of blow back.

Comparing the use of targeted drones to the full scale invasion of Iraq does not really support your conclusion.

The primary concern was unjustified war and its human consequences. And the impossibly rosy projections that we'd be in and out, with flowers, in no time.

What a fucking crock of criminal BS!

easily debunked with about 30 minutes' research, which is why I shall never, ever cast a vote for Hillary for any public office and why I vote Green or Peace and Freedom rather than vote for that war pig Feinstein.

that has harbored a terrorist like the ones the U.S. used drone attacks on? Tell me one country the U.S. has done so? Anybody associated with Al Qaeda has been targeted by the U.S. and her allies. Congress gave the President that authority after 9\11. And the last time I looked, the President of the United States is the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. The Executive Branch also has equal powers under the checks and balances theory. Nobody put handcuffs on Harry Truman when he used nukes. This U.S. citizen people are whining about put himself at risk. He didn't have to flee. He could have remained in the United States with his son and challenged the U.S. government. If they had charged me with treason as an American citizen, I would have stayed in country and fought them. He fled though. So they must have had the goods on him.

That's the most important thing in the world.

Eat the rich.

I was against it too, but I think I was almost alone in my circle. It seems the idea that Iraq was linked to 9/11 was very ingrained.

I recall political ads on the radio for a candidate for political office who claimed to have seen the secret documents linking Sadam Hussein to Al Queda and Bin Laden.

I spend a lot of my time screaming "Has everyone gone insane?!" at the radio in those days.

fatwa against Saddam Hussein, for fuck's sake. SH and OBL were mortal enemies of one another, mainly b/c SH was a secularist and OBL was a religious nut.

Those documents had to be really, really secret.

that's when we were screwed and things have gone downhill from there.

Oh, wait...

This is all so wrong. The drones and the way we make war, I mean.

I even saw one person call for Hillary in 16 and Michelle in 24. Ignoring the fact that Michelle Obama has no political experience, I somehow doubt she would be any more to the left than her husband. I'm sorry, but Obama is not a good president. He's one of the best in my lifetime, but that just shows you how shitty the presidents have been. I'm still debating who was the lesser of two evils Bill Clinton or Barrack Obama? Both were pretty bad in my opinion, they were simply better than all the others.

Obama is a pretty good president as far as I'm concerned. Some things I haven't liked. But mostly ok with him.

In my opinion he's been pretty poor. He's only better than his competition, but that isn't saying much when you are going up against McCain and Romney.

Totally. I'm not going to lambast you for it. Probably we agree on which areas Obama has not been good but disagree on the degree to which we weight those failures. Still I think the critique you offer is good in that it applies pressure in the right direction.

What goes around comes around. Happens again and again.

Our children and grandchildren will rue the day that Obama started using drones for war outside of war zones.

something was very wrong with what they were saying.
The rest of the world was coming to our aid and volunteered to organize a police investigation. The bu$h administration told them no, we would handle it.
So we attacked Iraq, starting with "Shock and Awe" which killed tens of thousands of innocent people in the middle of the night. Turning many into a pink mist which soon dried to a powder on the rubble, from the heat of the explosions.

Anyone that thinks 9/11 went down as the bu$h administration said it did, is at best, blindly ignorant of the facts, or at worst, a terrorist sympathizer, who has no problem with the senseless killing in the name of terror done by both sides.

How can we ever have peace by killing each other?

I'll always remember the German ship Lutgens...



...We prepared to render them honors on the bridgewing, and the Captain told the crew to come topside to wish them farewell. As they were making their approach, our Conning Officer announced through her binoculars that they were flying an American flag. As they came even closer, we saw that it was flying at half-mast. The bridgewing was crowded with people as the Boatswain's Mate blew two whistles -Attention to Port- the ship came up alongside and we saw that the entire crew of the German ship were manning the rails, in their dress blues. They had made up a sign that was displayed on the side that read "We Stand By You".

http://www.farrockaway.com/remember.html

Yep...

Needless to say, most of us thought they were nuts, but there definitely were debates.

They have warned of...blowback.

and we will bring down the hammer on somebody we blame, and the vicious cycle continues.

I saw the report on TV and I scribbled a note to myself.
It said- "World War 3 just started."

Let people gaze on the rotten corpse and go from there instead of idolizing an illusion.

"America is the first country to have gone from barbarism to decadence without the usual intervening period of civilization." Oscar Wilde

"I think it would be a good idea."

But all the pretending in the world won't stop the stench, the worms or the decomposition. So people can either live in lala-land or start facing reality so we can start dealing with this collectively.

Great post.

We tried to tell them - in fact we marched October 26, 2002 - but we were told that we were being unPatriotic.

Scott Ritter and numerous others stated that Saddam had no WMDs, but of course the "liberal" media vilified and ignored them and went with the Bushies. Unfortunately, many Dems went along as well. Add in the privatization and the billions of dollars wasted on everything in that foreign policy disaster.

eom

... and also a reason to demand our support. Up until they started it, the Bush administration really had nothing going on. I recollect that at some point, Bush had something like 95% support for that war. Still unbelievable how so many people bought into that war.

Once started, it draws to it in one way or the other, those who sustain and promote it and it gains momentum. It was the early 60's...just the briefest of periods between the late 40s and 50s...when the Nazis gave way to the Communists. The extreme Right flipped to the extreme Left and barely a war beat was missed. Now the Communists are gone for whom we have substituted the Muslims/Arabs.

For those who have been listening to this same old same old for many decades, we hear the same stories of the atrocities of the newest set of bad guys. Bad, bad, bad. Same basic themes...and we are good, good, good and must deliver/liberate the good people. War has always been waged for riches for the upper class; land, people/slaves, taxes, oil, pipelines...whatever the currency of the era. The jingoism/rah rah is merely chatter for our own fearful, huddled masses.

Students of the Roman Empire find much in common with the American Empire. It will ultimately likely crumble from within. Imploding from the massive weight of taxes, poliltical and corporate corruption, military over-reach, lack of opportunity for the young, technology of destruction, and some other culture will begin the ascent...my guess would be China.

I've always found it interesting that world history is chaptered or sectioned off pretty much by the dates of war.

We will have little standing to complain when some future superpower starts assassinating our people from killer drones in outer space. This self-justified murder by high technology has changed the World forever.

America will most certainly make sure of that.

You do realize, don't you, that all superpowers believe they will never be overtaken. At least they believe it while they still can.

Never, ever. It's ideology is too flexible for it to collapse. No-one's ever going to be able to catch up.

The doors were cedar
and the panels strips of gold
and the girls were golden girls
and the panels read and the girls chanted:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation:
nothing like us ever was.

The doors are twisted on broken hinges.
Sheets of rain swish through on the wind
where the golden girls ran and the panels read:
We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation,
nothing like us ever was.


It has happened before.
Strong men put up a city and got
a nation together,
And paid singers to sing and women
to warble: We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation,
nothing like us ever was.

And while the singers sang
and the strong men listened
and paid the singers well
and felt good about it all,
there were rats and lizards who listened
... and the only listeners left now
... are ... the rats ... and the lizards.

And there are black crows
crying, "Caw, caw,"
bringing mud and sticks
building a nest
over the words carved
on the doors where the panels were cedar
and the strips on the panels were gold
and the golden girls came singing:

We are the greatest city,
the greatest nation:
nothing like us ever was.

The only singers now are crows crying, "Caw, caw,"
And the sheets of rain whine in the wind and doorways.
And the only listeners now are ... the rats ... and the lizards.

by who?

Enjoy!

is what led me here and caused me to question all of my political beliefs. It is when I realized I wasn't really a republican.

....that 1) we would be in a war within two years, and 2) our budget surplus would disappear almost immediately, and 3) our financial system would collapse because of the strain produced by the new war.

I was loudly vilified and told I was full of it. I wonder what they're thinking now?

Do I feel vindicated that what I predicted came to pass? Certainly not for all of the victims of all nationalities of two wars in the Middle East and the countless covert ops around the world. Certainly not for all of the people who lost their jobs and then lost their homes to foreclosure. And certainly not personally because my family also fell under the wheels of the "new" economy.

History is a cruel taskmaster. All superpowers eventually get kicked to the curb. I don't know if it's our turn yet, but we're certainly getting a close look at the paving.

when 9/11 occurred. What Bush II implemented started my inevitable leaving of the GOP.

Sadly, I saw then like I see today that many Democrats enabled that and even applauded it. Human psychology always trumps rational thinking as this whole 'drone' issue is once more proving.

The lesser of two evils indeed.

...not a single Democrat who OPPOSED the Invasion of Iraq
was appointed to a position of authority or power in the Obama Executive Branch.
The entire Obama White House is composed of Democrats who Got-It-Wrong .

Unfortunately, too many "Democrats" voted FOR the Invasion of Iraq.

Any "Democrat" who today hides behind the excuse that "Bush Fooled them"
is either:
1)Lying through their teeth

OR

2)Publicly admitting that they are much too much of an idiot to hold public office.


The Democratic Party made it possible for Bush-the-Lesser to stand before The World with a smirk on his face and correctly claim,
"The Democrats voted FOR it TOO!!!"
(How I cringed in shame every time I had to listen to THAT!)


[font size=3]The Democratic Party Honor Roll[/font]
These Democrats should be remembered for their principled stand against the Republicans and The Industrial WAR Machine.

The Authorization to Use Military Force in Iraq
(The Iraq War Resolution)


United States Senate

In the Senate, the 21 Democrats, one Republican and one Independent courageously voted their consciences in 2002 against the War in Iraq :

Daniel Akaka (D-Hawaii)
Jeff Bingaman (D-New Mexico)
Barbara Boxer (D-California)
Robert Byrd (D-West Virginia)
Kent Conrad (D-North Dakota)
Jon Corzine (D-New Jersey)
Mark Dayton (D-Minnesota)
Dick Durbin (D-Illinois)
Russ Feingold (D-Wisconsin)
Bob Graham (D-Florida)
Daniel Inouye (D-Hawaii)
Jim Jeffords (I-Vermont)
Ted Kennedy (D-Massachusetts)
Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont)
Carl Levin (D-Michigan)
Barbara Mikulski (D-Maryland)
Patty Murray (D-Washington)
Jack Reed (D-Rhode Island)
Paul Sarbanes (D-Maryland)
Debbie Stabenow (D-Michigan)
The late Paul Wellstone (D-Minnesota)
Ron Wyden (D-Oregon)

Lincoln Chaffee (R-Rhode Island)


United States House of Representatives

Six House Republicans and one independent joined 126 Democratic members of the House of Represenatives:

Neil Abercrombie (D-Hawaii)
Tom Allen (D-Maine)
Joe Baca (D-California)
Brian Baird (D-Washington DC)
John Baldacci (D-Maine, now governor of Maine)
Tammy Baldwin (D-Wisconsin)
Xavier Becerra (D-California)
Earl Blumenauer (D-Oregon)
David Bonior (D-Michigan, retired from office)
Robert Brady (D-Pennsylvania)
Corinne Brown (D-Florida)
Sherrod Brown (D-Ohio)
Lois Capps (D-California)
Michael Capuano (D-Massachusetts)
Benjamin Cardin (D-Maryland)
Julia Carson (D-Indiana)
William Clay, Jr. (D-Missouri)
Eva Clayton (D-North Carolina, retired from office)
James Clyburn (D-South Carolina)
Gary Condit (D-California, retired from office)
John Conyers, Jr. (D-Michigan)
Jerry Costello (D-Illinois)
William Coyne (D-Pennsylvania, retired from office)
Elijah Cummings (D-Maryland)
Susan Davis (D-California)
Danny Davis (D-Illinois)
Peter DeFazio (D-Oregon)
Diana DeGette (D-Colorado)
Bill Delahunt (D-Massachusetts)
Rosa DeLauro (D-Connecticut)
John Dingell (D-Michigan)
Lloyd Doggett (D-Texas)
Mike Doyle (D-Pennsylvania)
Anna Eshoo (D-California)
Lane Evans (D-Illinois)
Sam Farr (D-California)
Chaka Fattah (D-Pennsylvania)
Bob Filner (D-California)
Barney Frank (D-Massachusetts)
Charles Gonzalez (D-Texas)
Luis Gutierrez (D-Illinois)
Alice Hastings (D-Florida)
Earl Hilliard (D-Alabama, retired from office)
Maurice Hinchey (D-New York)
Ruben Hinojosa (D-Texas)
Rush Holt (D-New Jersey)
Mike Honda (D-California)
Darlene Hooley (D-Oregon)
Inslee
Jackson (Il.)
Jackson-Lee (TX)
Johnson, E.B.
Jones (OH)
Kaptur
Kildee
Kilpatrick
Kleczka
Kucinich
LaFalce
Langevin
Larsen (WA)
Larson (CT)
Lee
Levin
Lewis (GA)
Lipinski
Lofgren
Maloney (CT)
Matsui
McCarthy (MO)
McCollum
McDermott
McGovern
McKinney
Meek (FL)
Meeks (NY)
Menendez
Millender-McDonald
Miller
Mollohan
Moran (Va)
Nadler
Napolitano
Neal
Oberstar
Obey
Olver
Owens
Pallone
Pastor
Payne
Pelosi
Price (NC)
Rahall
Rangel
Reyes
Rivers
Rodriguez
Roybal-Allard
Rush
Sabo
Sanchez
Sanders
Sawyer
Schakowsky
Scott
Serrano
Slaughter
Snyder
Solis
Stark
Strickland
Stupak
Thompson (CA)
Thompson (MS)
Tierney
Towns
Udall (NM)
Udall (CO)
Velazquez
Visclosky
Waters
Watson
Watt
Woolsey
Wu

the WHOLE Democratic policy agenda?

.....................

PLEASE don't try to shame me for being pragmatic, not only will it not work, concrete pragmatic things affect the values of human life and freedom at least as much as drones do, just in different ways, so I'm hoping we can find something besides a divide and conquer approach to this that could very well result in there still being drone programs and even less social and economic justice than we currently have.

I sort of accepted it as the only practical method the UN Sec Council would EVER accept to get the goddamn sanctions that were starving Iraqi kids to death, removed.

About 6 months in, I realized that the war was not a better solution. Fucking horrified. No only was it 'as bad', but it was much, much worse. Now I know. Never again.

the supreme court shose poorly.

Democratic policy agenda, so all of us will do what we are going to do and what will happen will happen to OPPOSE drone projects and we could STILL end up WITH drone projects and WITHOUT one whole hell of a lot of other human rights besides.

Please remember that the 1% have no political party and address the scenario above HYPOTHETICALLY.

One other thing that is relevant and that I don't often see mentioned is an assumption that is inherent in OP that the people will not change in any fundamentally functional way to deal with drone projects as an essential PART of their WHOLE legislative agenda.

Please do not try to shame me for being pragmatic and "not principled". I assure you that I am a very principled person who wants us to honor our principles RESPONSIBLY within strategically pragmatic processes.

One of the things that HAS been fucking us in EVERY way and will do so again in regard to our opposition to drone programs is ZERO SUM assumptions. That's DIVIDE AND CONQUER. It works every time and we CAN end up WITH drone programs and WITHOUT things like the right to organize, without Single Payer Health Care, without authentic PUBLIC EDUCATION and so very, very much more that, if the value of life means anything anywhere else in the world, it means just as much here in terms of other human rights.

I knew we were headed for a deeper level of Hell.

K&R

....but I knew it was all a lie in the beginning. Never, ever, actually, would I have expected that they would take this country so low. And now the drones. It's a never ending cycle of killing. Of one kind or another. Wars, drones, water-boarding and other kinds of torture. It just goes on and on and on. And I will say here and now what I truly believe: We are living in a military police state, and it is running our country. I will never believe that PO would freely go along with the escalation of the use of drones. Drones insure that the never ending war will continue on, and that we will always need the MIC to protect us. We're in effect being set up. AND we're paying for it.

I too was against it from the start. The US doesn't (or didn't) start wars of aggression. There was no threat from Saddam and Iraq...none...zip...ZERO. Our command-in-thief at the time was s blathering idiot who didn't learn history. We meddled in Iran in the 50s and look what the got us??

Granted it wasn't an inside job like the actual Reichstag fire was, but Bush and his cohorts in both parties manipulated it in pretty much the same way.

I was so annoyed last night about the way things in this country have regressed. It is not all the GOP's fault. It's also the fault of the political leadership of the Democratic Party for letting this radial and class enmity fester for more than two decades before they figured it out.

You might be surprised how many people argued in favor of the war, or at least the resolution around here - at least that's how I remember it.

On edit: my info says I joined in 2003, so I guess I was just lurking as of 2002.

in reluctant allies, in veteran hospitals, in Libyan riots and Algerian hostage crises, in Yemeni mailbomb plots and a far stronger al-Qaeda presense in Africa and Iraq and Afghanistan and Pakistan. By validating the paranoia of a dozen insane fundamentalist clerics, we've provided them with thousands of deluded followers.

In the middle of the 2004 election, I predicted on these boards that we'd spend most of the rest of this century cleaning up the mess that Bush and the neocons did in international relations and to America's reputation. We have only started that work. As seen in Libya, we still get two new fires for every fire we stamp out. We won't perceive any progress until we get that down to a 1:1 old fire to new fire ratio. That'll be a long time coming.

Afghanistan was planned well ahead of 9-11 as well as Iraq.