I Will Not Play The Lesser Of Two Evil Political Game in 2012

[rsmith6621]

...So at this point with NDAA going to be signed in the coming days. I will spend election day 2012 doing something else. There are only a handful of HoR and Senators worth of a vote,the rest are sell outs to corporations to benefit their wallets.

If you participate in OWS activity's you better be prepared in the coming months to be declared an ENEMY of The State.Ink your lawyers phone number on your arm.

We are all losing our rights and freedoms and many don't have the spine to fight in the halls of congress for us.

Again I Will Not Play The Lesser Of Two Evil Political Game in 2012 I think many here know what I mean by that statement.

[ProSense]

1. OK n/t

[ellisonz]

73. +1

[pasto76]

172. +2

[FarLeftFist]

2. If you don't vote then you have no right to complain. How will you spend 4 years away from

Political discussions?

[liberal N proud]

8. +1000

[Chef Eric]

28. The first amendment applies to non-voters as well as voters.

Perhaps you weren't paying attention in fifth-grade civics class.

[Sherman A1]

36. +1, Agreed & Well Said!

Indeed it does.

[FarLeftFist]

42. Nope, didn't take civics in 5th grade, all I have is this: If you don't vote then don't complain.

Because then YOU are the biggest part of the problem.

[Charlemagne]

88. If not voting is a political statement

Then it is just as powerful as casting a ballot. In a lot of countries not voting is illegal because if a bunch of people stay home, it will delegitimize the election.

If you dont vote because you are lazy, yeah you cant complain.

But not voting as a protest is certainly acceptable.

[FarLeftFist]

96. What kind of protest, not giving a shit who runs your country? How revolutionary.

[Charlemagne]

101. Seriously dude....

During the civil war in El Salvador (1980s), if you didnt vote they would consider you a revolutionary (or at least sympathetic to them) and lock you up for treason.

During the later part of the civil war in Guatemala (late 80's-90s), if you didnt vote they would consider you a revolutionary (or at least sympathetic to them) and lock you up for treason.

If you honestly believe that there is no true democratic choice and you want to sit out as a protest....thats fine with me.

Its about intent.

[FarLeftFist]

106. Sure thats fine, but said person shouldn't complain.

[Charlemagne]

114. I agree

There should be conditions and requirements in order to utilize your freedom of speech. If you dont do this certain thing, you have no right to exercise your civil liberties.

I also think that only property owners should be able to vote. Otherwise voters don't have a stake in the future of the country.

or

Maybe only those who pay taxes should be able to vote. Yeah, they have to contribute to running the country financially for them to have a say in who runs it politically.

So I agree with you, American citizens cant use their freedoms unless they meet a certain threshold, the cosntitution was wrong when it said everyone has those rights.

If you dont vote, you arent allowed to voice your opinion!

[FarLeftFist]

115. Really reaching on that one. Please, only stick to what I said and not hyperbole.

Thats like me complaining about seatbelts and you delving into me thinking minorities or women shouldn't drive. Sorry, not into that game. Stick to the facts.

[Charlemagne]

118. If you dont wont you shouldnt complain

"Thats like me complaining about seatbelts and you delving into me thinking minorities or women shouldn't drive."

No actually its not "reaching" at all. Nor is it like the example you provided. You said that if people dont vote, then they should not exercise their freedom of speech.


The example you chose above deals with:
1. A law (seat belts), which is a choice.
2. Gender (women), which is not a choice.

However your original argument, before you accused me of trying to play games, deal with
1. Voting, constitutional right
2. Free Speech, constitutional right.


You said that not doing one should negate the other.

Not wearing a seat belt doesn't mean you shouldnt be a woman

but, as you argued,

Not voting does mean that you shouldnt use your 1st amendment rights.

[FarLeftFist]

121. When did I say they should not exercise their right to free-speech? They can do whatever they want.

I'm not the free-speech police. I think you're being WAAY too literal. How about this, if you don't vote you can complain all you want about "the corrupt system" etc. but why should I personally care about your complaints of elected officials that YOU possibly helped put there by NOT voting?

[Charlemagne]

125. "When did I say they should not exercise their right to free-speech"

You stated (and this is just from the stuff at the top of the thread....no citations from the lower half because im lazy)

"If you don't vote then you have no right to complain."

"If you don't vote then don't complain."

"[If a person doesnt vote]...said person shouldn't complain."



"I think you're being WAAY too literal"

Sorry I read the words you wrote and interpreted them based on what they mean. I guess maybe you should rethink your word usage if it is causing such confusions. This is, after all, exactly what you said.....on several occasions....to several different people. Sorry that I interpreted the meaning incorrectly. I didnt know you were only figuratively saying that people shouldn't express their opinions.....even though that is what you literally wrote at least 3 times.


Why the hell are we arguing about this. Lets just forget it and move on.

[FarLeftFist]

133. Again, the whole WAY too literal thing. Did you think I was the one who has power to take away

Rights? Yes, we ALL know people CAN say whatever they want, but there is a certain social etiquette.

[EOTE]

150. By that same logic, if you vote and your guy wins, you lose the right to complain.

In other words, that's incredibly flawed and naive logic.

[FarLeftFist]

216. No, not at all. If you PARTICIPATED in democracy then complain away.

Regardless of the outcome.

[cliffordu]

131. Who decides what is lazy and what is protest?

I guess there are those who are lazy protesters.

Or just lazy pretending to be protesters....

[ooglymoogly]

206. I am not getting this not voting meme....

There are several better ways to make your voice heard.

there will be other issues of importance to vote on, on the ballot. Just vote on those...that leaves a recorded anger and or disgust, at the candidates.

If you are determined not to cast a vote in a meaningless election, and do not have another option....i. e. write in your choice; You can can black out the candidates and leave the vote boxes untouched and if possible, if a space exists to write none of the above.

I will write in my choice; Bernie or Grayson, maybe Warren. Much will happen between now and voting day,

The best prospect is to work our asses off, if no suitable candidate steps up
to the plate, mount a big write in campaign.

I would jump on to that band wagon in a heartbeat.

[Charlemagne]

207. I am assuming

That is what the non-voting meme means in America. You vote on the other stuff, but if you dont vote (for whatever reason) on a candidate, it doenst mean you should STFU.


There are several times where I vote for an office but I leave teh judges and issues blank. in Ohio, it is against election law to list the party affiliation of judges. That is odd considering the judges still receive financial support from political parties. It is also difficult to find the background of judges so that someone can make an informed decision (at least it is difficult for busy bees like me). Moreover, if there is a local issue of which I am not familiar, I will not vote on it.

I dont think that necessarily negates my right to get all sorts of mad about stuff. maybe it is a local thing my generation. many people under 30 in and around Dayton ohio do the same thing. We think it is irresponsible to vote when you dont know the issues and know nothing of the candidate.

[gateley]

231. Aren't we worth more than a "political statement"? The repercussions of voting will

affect millions. I sure don't respect those who made their "political statements" during the mid-terms.

You gotta do what you can.

[vi5]

152. So if my choices are between 2 different plates of shit...

..and I don't choose to eat either one of them, then I shouldn't complain that I'm hungry?

Great logic.

Sorry, first amendment applies to every one regardless of their status as a voter.

I'll vote for plenty of down ballot races and I'll even vote for some good dems. But I'm done just mindlessly throwing my vote to anyone with a D after their name. I've been played for a sucker doing that for the past almost 30 years now.

[Uncle Fester]

166. You're kidding..... right?

It is the people who voted these folks into office that are to blame. If you are not given a choice of candidates that reflect YOUR views and values but vote for one anyways, YOU are the problem.

Remember Jefferson's words in the Declaration of Independence? "...Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." What if an election were held and (relatively) nobody showed up? Don't you think that would send a message louder than any manufactured victory?

The time is drawing near for us all to withdraw our consent. IMHO.

[pscot]

192. If you vote you consent in the outcome

If you consent you are complicit.

[Uncle Fester]

200. My point exactly. :) nt

[Charlemagne]

208. This post

Is the most concise and profound thing ive seen on DU.


Well said, sir or maam.

[SusanaMontana41]

210. Thank you. nt

[B Calm]

40. +2000

[provis99]

44. voting means squat shit.

[FarLeftFist]

49. Riiiiight.

[Carolina]

80. exactly my thoughts!

[sabrina 1]

50. Excuse me?? The 1st Amendment says nothing about voting.

How sad that the American people never really appreciated the rights they were born with and took so much for granted, they were more than willing to give them up.

I truly hope we never get to a point where not voting automatically restricts a citizen's right to express their political opinion. The 1st Amendment was written into the Constitution to prevent exactly such a travesty from occurring, that there would be people who deny citizens the right to speak freely about their government. How right they were.

[FarLeftFist]

54. Oh Jeez, it's an expression. NOT voting makes YOU the biggest part of the problem.

If you choose NOT to vote then I really don't want to hear shit from you about the current state of affairs.

[sabrina 1]

58. Well, fortunately it's not all about you. I do want to hear from people who choose not to vote

I want to know why because if you don't know why, you can't fix it. And no, non-voters are not the biggest part of the problem, not even close. They are the result of a failed system which they view as not related to their lives as Politicians cannot relate to the problems they have or do not want to. So, they put their energy into trying to survive, to feeding their children as best they can. Sorry that not everyone has the luxury to be deeply involved in the political system. Many single mothers eg, barely have time to take care of themselves and many are more worried about where the next meal comes from, than what is going on in DC, since not much that goes on there helps them anyhow.

I will be talking to non-voters, and rather than tell them I don't want to hear shit from them, I will give them information that hopefully will get them to vote for Progressive Candidates, people they may not know really will work for them. The MSM doesn't exactly push those candidates so it's up to us.

I already have a list of non-voters among my own friends and family and I know why they don't vote, because I asked, and then listened, and did not tell them to go to hell or that they had no right to express their opinions.

As a result, I have convinced at least one of them so far to vote for their very progressive Congressmember, someone they knew nothing about.

I don't get this antagonism towards anyone who doesn't see things your way. If your cause is good, you won't have a problem getting people to listen to YOU. If it isn't, then I guess dismissing people is the only option.

[FarLeftFist]

64. Sorry, but voting is the LEAST someone can do. No excuses.

I'm not going to hold peoples hands and walk them through it, there's no excuse to NOT vote if you are physically able to.

[sabrina 1]

75. Do as you wish. In my opinion that attitude is as responsible for the non-voters as the non-voters

themselves. They are not asking for anyone to hold their hands. Physically able can mean working three jobs to earn enough to keep a roof over someone's head. And in many cases, $20 is the difference between losing that home and holding on to it for another month. I assumed Democrats at least were more understanding of the plight of the poor. Wrong again I guess.

[FarLeftFist]

94. Right, you're talking to someone that believes election day should be a National Holiday.

If someone CHOOSES to not participate in democracy than why even come to a political discussion board? The poster has every right to be angry and express his/her feelings about the President, obviously he/she voted last time around which is why I'm entertaining the thread with responses, but choosing to NOT participate makes someone part of the problem. "I want more progressive candidates, but I don't want to have to vote for them or help get them elected!".

[SusanaMontana41]

212. Voting is one way of participating. It is not the only way, and I'll be damned if I'll

vote for someone who supports endless detention of ANYONE.

[A Simple Game]

76. Jeez, not voting upsets you. I had the impression that you would be

more upset if you knew who I voted for.

I plan on voting for the most liberal person on the ballot.

No more voting for the lesser of two evils, from now on I vote for what is best for my country and myself. Only Republicans put party before country.

[onenote]

98. so denying a vote to someone who might win to vote for someone who can't win is good for you and

for the country?

Answer: No its not.

[A Simple Game]

220. So voting for someone that I don't want to win will help my candidate how? n/t

[onenote]

223. If your candidate has zero chance of winning, how does your vote help you?

Its a zero sum game. One of the two major party candidates are going to win. You can pretend otherwise, but its just that: pretending. And unless you feel that there is absolutely no difference to the country in which of those candidates is elected -- none, nada -- voting for someone else will not make your world better.

[A Simple Game]

230. If you are happy with what the two major parties have to offer, good for you.

I'm not, the Democrat running and I am sure whoever gets the nomination for the Republicans are not liberals. Will my voting for the most liberal candidate possible, which could still be President Obama although not likely, make my world better? For me, yes it will. I will know I did the right thing.

How is anything going to change if we don't change it? Do you really believe voting for the same two parties will facilitate change? The politicians certainly aren't going to change their status quo. don't give me that crap about changing the party from within, hasn't worked for 30 years, isn't going to work now.

I am all done voting for someone just because they aren't the other guy. from now on I will be voting for someone because I want them to win. If you are happy settling for less than what you want, good for you.

[onenote]

240. And you honestly believe that the re-election of President Obama

would not make your world better in any way than it will be if he loses to Romney or Gingrich or any of the other repubs with a shot at the GOP nomination?

I find that hard to believe. And thus you're not really voting to make your world better. You're voting to let the world get worse so maybe it might someday get better.

I disagree with that hope it gets worse approach and I don't view supporting an imperfect candidate over a much more imperfect candidate as "settling." I view it as voting to get something better than the alternative with the hope that we can continue to build rather than hope that if things go backwards we can rebuild and not only recover the losses but move foreward.

[A Simple Game]

241. Keep it up, I'm sure it will work out fine the next time!

Repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Now what does that define?

[FarLeftFist]

99. Great! But you're not the OP, who I was referring to. Please DO vote for the most Liberal person.

And THANK YOU for participating in democracy.

[sulphurdunn]

142. The biggest part of the problem

is a two party status quo political system masquerading as a two party oppositional system in which the act of voting serves to legitimize the status quo by placing one or the other parties in power to maintain it. Under such a system, change is all but impossible and voting only changes the cogs on the wheel.

[hay rick]

155. Well said.

A vote for Obama may not be as toxic as a vote for his Republican opponent, but it will only serve to reinforce the status quo. At this point, the ballot box looks like the vestigial remains of the democracy which spawned the current plutocracy.

[Toucano]

71. I've always heard that...but I don't see it in the Bill of Rights, so I'm going to call BS

Non-voters have every right to complain about the lack of real choice, the lack of representation, the corrupt campaign finance system, the corporate controlled media...

There's really quite a lot to complain about. Particularly when people vote for change and get business as usual.

[FarLeftFist]

100. Yes, they DO have every right to complain about it, right after they vote.

[Fuddnik]

124. "If God had intended for us to vote.....

He'd give us candidates".

Molly Ivins

[RBInMaine]

139. Oh grow the hell up. If you don't vote, then DO NOT BITCH ! This is FRINGE nonsense.

[sad sally]

79. Or as the wise old George Carlin said if you vote you have no right to complain.

I believe if you vote, you have no right to complain. People like to twist that around – they say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain', but where's the logic in that? If you vote and you elect dishonest, incompetent people into office who screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You caused the problem; you voted them in; you have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote, who in fact did not even leave the house on election day, am in no way responsible for what these people have done and have every right to complain about the mess you created that I had nothing to do with.”

George Carlin

[FarLeftFist]

102. That goes against the collective society and unity. Him and THOUSANDS of others who didn't vote

ARE responsible for what has been done. YOUR SILENCE WILL BE YOUR CONSENT. Don't complain how your tax money is used, don't complain about public education, infrastructure, etc.

[Jakes Progress]

84. Uh. This is America. What country do you come from.

You don't get to tell people how to vote, when to vote, or how they can behave.

I voted, and I complain when the administration sucks. If I don't vote, I will complain if the person who said he/she would do the right thing does the wrong thing. I pay my taxes, and I expect my employees to do their job.

Nobody made you god.

[FarLeftFist]

103. How can you complain about your employees when you didn't hire them?

I don't believe in God and I'm NOT telling anyone "how to vote", I'm telling them TO VOTE.

[Jakes Progress]

158. Still not getting it, huh?

If you love to use the business model so much, we can. I supervised, evaluated, and signed the paychecks for dozens of employees that I never hired. Others did the hiring.

Look. The president is the employee of the people. All the people. If you continue with your specious and unsupportable metaphor, you would not have been allowed to complain about george bush, assuming you didn't vote for him.

And I will vote. I will vote for candidates who show promise of advancing a progressive agenda. If you feel compelled to vote for a slow slide towards neo-con heaven, then go ahead. I'll be voting for down ballot Democrats who will thwart the desires of New Democrats who share more goals with reagan than truman.

[FarLeftFist]

217. That makes NO SENSE. Participating in democracy gives your complaints credibility.

Otherwise YOUR SILENCE WILL BE YOUR CONSENT.

[Jakes Progress]

221. Please read the posts you reply to.

It's only polite.

And it keeps you from looking silly.

[DeSwiss]

91. I believe you have that ass-backwards......

- If you do vote that means that it's YOU[i/] who has no right to complain:

K&R

"I have solved this political dilemma in a very direct way: I don't vote. On Election Day, I stay home. I firmly believe that if you vote, you have no right to complain. Now, some people like to twist that around. They say, 'If you don't vote, you have no right to complain,' but where's the logic in that? If you vote, and you elect dishonest, incompetent politicians, and they get into office and screw everything up, you are responsible for what they have done. You voted them in. You caused the problem. You have no right to complain. I, on the other hand, who did not vote -- who did not even leave the house on Election Day -- am in no way responsible for that these politicians have done and have every right to complain about the mess that you created." ~George Carlin

[FarLeftFist]

104. Sorry. See my above post, I am a Carlin fan but I will speak for myself and use my own logic.

[DeSwiss]

112. Everyone should use their own logic.

- There's little point of possessing freewill if we don't.....

''Rome’s ruling class was unable to restrain its rapacity, even in its own ultimate interest. Adams saw what liberals are rarely willing to admit—namely, that a system based on corrupt practice cannot be saved merely by tinkering with it.''

'The Economics of Human Energy' in Brooks Adams, Ezra Pound, and Robert Theobald - by John Whiting, London University - http://www.whitings-writings.com/diatribes/ehe03.htm

[FarLeftFist]

116. Exactly!

[EOTE]

151. I'm fairly certain that post you're responding to went entirely over your head.

Because you couldn't disagree more with its contents.

[FarLeftFist]

218. No, I understood it completely.

[ProfessorGAC]

248. Um. You Do Realize That Carlin Was A Comic, Right?

It seems you and others are taking a comic commentary far too literally.
GAC

[DeSwiss]

249. While I too have made similar statements.....

...regarding taking seriously the statements of ''some'' comics, in this instance the point is quite apt in my view.

The court jester was at one time venerated because they were the only ones who could openly state the TRUTH to the King/Queen in a comical manner -- that which could not be said by their Counsel, Advisers and/or The Courtiers, for fear of losing their heads.

While I will not in this instance try to speak for others on this issue, as to what is being ''taken too literally,'' in actuality I take none of it seriously at all. To me it's all rather absurd nonsense as far as I can see. And, (once again like George Carlin), I'm just here at The Greatest Monkey Show On Earth as an observer.

- Although it is no longer entertaining. Just mostly repetitiously boring and barbaric......

“I'm having fun because I don't take it (life) seriously - the only things I care about are my family, friends, work and my lady, Sally. Philosophers for a long time have said 'why are we here?' - I'm here for the entertainment. If you're born in the world, you're given a ticket to the freak show; if you're born in America, you get a front row seat.” ~George Carlin

[AnotherMcIntosh]

123. In America, you have the right to complain whether you vote or not.

And, in America, you don't have the right or the power to determine who can complain.

You want that power? Get on a jury.

[FarLeftFist]

135. Yeah, I answered that argument about 7 times already up above.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

159. Poorly.

Imho.

[Jakes Progress]

181. You replied. I wouldn't call those posts answers.

Under your "answer" you wouldn't be allowed to complain about bush because you didn't vote for him.

Here in Texas, there are races I don't vote in because the only candidates are two republicans - one shitty, one stupid. And in this country I get to complain and gripe whether shitty or stupid wins.

[FarLeftFist]

219. NO. STOP WITH THAT WARPED LOGIC. YOU CAN COMPLAIN IF YOU PARTICIPATE IN DEMOCRACY.

[Jakes Progress]

222. No. You stop yelling. And read the posts you think you are replying to.

[avebury]

144. If the Powers to Be do not allow you to vote none of the above or write in

a candidate why should we be forced to vote for candidates that we don't want? Voting should be about voting for candidates that you want not which candidate is the lesser of the evils. In Oklahoma we do not have the right to write in another candidate's name. I plan on going to the polling booth next year and write a huge x over the ballot to show that my vote is for none of the above. Yes my ballot will be nullified but I will have voted and I will not have settled for the lesser of the evils.

[Xicano]

156. Paying taxes gives the right to complain

So does the fact that by electing not to vote because you disagree with all the options availible. You are voting "None of the above".

[kenny blankenship]

168. Bullshit. When you vote for "evil", and you get it ,THEN you don't have any right to complain

Hey - you voted for it and gave your consent.
Well, actually you still do have a right to complain. But you are the more responsible for the criminal drift of the system than those who withhold their consent to be governed by it. No. Actually, that's silly too because this system is way beyond being reformed by voting or not voting.

Either way, trying to tell people they can't have a valid opinion and they can't have their say about the decay and abuses of a corrupt system of government is --and I'm being really diplomatic here-- really, really wrong. It closely resembles the mindset of the folks who did the most to corrupt our system of representation in the first place.

[styersc]

195. You're in the new DU (DU3). Complaining is not allowed.

That's why I love losing civil rights and the promotion of right wing policies by our dreamy, always correct leaders.

All I want for Christmas is the keystone sand oil pipeline.

I'm a Stepford Democrat.

[CoffeeCat]

196. Things are SO BAD....

...that voting no longer means anything.

Both parties have been completely corrupted.

We have a former Constitutional Law professor as our President--and he just signed
a bill declaring that Americans can be indefinitely detained without trial--just for
speaking out against the government.

There is something wrong with the entire system. It is all rotten to the core.

Voting really doesn't make any difference. Both political parties are beholden
to the corporations and the neocons who want our country to be a warmonger,
Fascist machine.

Our government, as it stands now, is completely incapable of serving "We The
People" and is instead serving psychopaths.

Don't belittle or question someone who is pointing out this disgusting reality. Anyone,
at this point, who believes that our sold-out, corrupt, sickening government can be
improved with a vote--is living in a fool's paradise. As it stands now, voting for
any candidate in either political party will lead to NO CHANGE.

[aquamarina]

199. Amen CoffeeCat. Amen

When the choice of voting for "none of the above" is ever included on a ballot then I'll actually start to feel that my vote counts for something.

[Yavapai]

204. Even if voting meant real change, Diebold would corrupt the process!

Let's see, I think I have voted in every election since JFK.

The result:

Continuous wars that has sapped the richest economy the world has ever seen.

A health care system designed to maximize profits for huge Corporations and screw the health of the people.

Huge corporations in almost total control of "our" government.

Almost all media controlled by huge corporations in order to propagandize the citizens.

Our bill of rights under Continuous successful attack. It will be gone with the signing of the National Defense Authorization Act, unless SCOTUS steps up to do the right thing.

...and on and on and on ect.

Guess we better stop complaining so we don't get disappeared like they do in the other 3rd world countries.

[indepat]

225. Like your style, panache, and right-on

observations and: SCOTUS can be counted on to always do the right thing, the extremely far RW thing.

[dana_b]

239. well said and I couldn't agree more n/t

[The Doctor.]

3. Yes, it means you do not intend to vote for or support Obama.

Like I say; Do as thou wilt, have a clear conscience, if we must suffer we will do so together.

[TheWraith]

4. Nader 2000!

Sorry, I thought we were repeating silly, BS sloganeering and implying our unwillingness to support Democrats due to believing things which are wrong.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

5. I know what you mean.

I am done as well. The Presidential candidate who most closely aligns with my hope and vision for this country will get my vote.

[Whisp]

27. I think some here have been done and over done months/years ago.

but do the done/overdone/last dog gone straw forever thistimeImeanIT thing when Obama 'fails' the universe once again.

but I could be wrong.

[emilyg]

46. Good. That's what

I will do.

[JNinWB]

6. Anyone who insinuates that Obama is "evil" loses the debate.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

13. Seriously.

My complaints are legion but I repeatedly defend the President from a wide assortment of lurid accusations. Many things can be said about Obama, some can be pretty unflattering, but I just can assign the term "evil." It just doesn't register.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

37. Obama is not "evil" -

but some of his actions are.

Indefinite detention without charges or trial of ANYONE is evil. Plain and simple.

[this bird has flown]

110. I agree but we should have all been up at arms

when it was happening to those in Iraq and Afghanistan, also. This garbage about "unlimited detention" is satanic. Even enemy combatants (which some of those sent to Gitmo were not even, including CHILDREN!) have rights during wars.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

242. Most of us WERE up in arms here and elsewhere --

but that was pre-O, and the definition of things we should be up in arms about seems to have changed a bit since then.

[The Wielding Truth]

201. That's what I was going to say. Obama is just not Adlai Stephenson or Paul Wellstone. He is the guy

who is running now and he is better than anyone else running. The better of two evils? The better of all the evils running is more like it.

[Vincardog]

7. It is NOT a game, it is a CON

[Jakes Progress]

182. A new con. You know - neo con.

[Vincardog]

190. You so funny

[Robb]

9. The NDAA authorizes detention of OWS. It mentions them specifically.

I figure since no one's reading the bill I can say whatever I want about it and REALLY get people riled up.

[Scuba]

11. I hear BHO will use it to lock up the 99%....

... of Congress that has betrayed us.

[Robb]

12. Until Levin shows a birth certificate, it's all conjecture.

[FSogol]

34. Duzy!

[emulatorloo]

22. I bet you a dollar someone starts a thread along those lines, basing it on your post

"I read In a thread that the law specifically targets OWS."

[Whisp]

29. I think it's already been posted.

in close enough form anyway.

[emulatorloo]

39. Yep, the OP

[sabrina 1]

52. No law was needed to target OWS. It's already happening, with help from some surprising

sources. Over 5, 000 peaceful American citizens exercising their 1st Amendment rights have been arrested and imprisoned over the past three months.

Many more have been brutally beaten, some nearly killed, many ending up in the hospital. And denied medical care in some cases. Journalists have been attacked and arrested simply for being there.

I see nothing amusing about what has happened to these American citizens. It's only a matter of time before someone is killed, and only due to the protesters who pulled the seriously injured out of the way, that at least three people did not die.

Meantime, not one Banker responsible for the collapse of the World Economy has even been questioned. And not one War criminal has had to answer for the lies they told that got over one million people killed including thousands of our own troops.

[indepat]

227. Kinda makes this "equal justice under the law" and "the rule of law"

thingys just some more euphemistically cruel propaganda?

[grantcart]

61. Section C mentions my Mother

And the fact that McCain is on TV today criticisizing leaving Iraq and that we should have left 50,000 troops shows that there is absolutely no difference between the two.

[Robb]

65. The NDAA mandates C sections?!?

I am calling CONGRESS. RIGHT FUCKING after I do some laundry.

[Scuba]

10. What you need to do is get to work now, rooting out DINO's and vetting real Democrats...

... at the grass roots level.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. +1

[julian09]

31. That has been my cause, getting rid of Dinos

as well as gaining house back. There may very well be a new supreme court appointment, that alone is enough to vote democrat.
We need more senators to move confirmations foward as well as legislation.
If OWS really wants to accomplish something, they should start thinking of who they want to vote and campaign for. Can't just sit on sidelines and complain or march to fire just to watch house burn. Expose record of those who voted with the 1%; take radio and local print ads or even fliers of their voting record on cars in store and church parking lots. ONLY TEN MONTHS LEFT, GET GOING.

[Scuba]

43. Any advice on how to vet real Dems would be appreciated. n/t

[julian09]

113. For incumbants their voting record on all issues , nothing speaks louder.

For new office seekers, pin them down on issues for unequivacal yes or no.
If they are running for office, they should know where they want to go and share that goal.
If they can't say , they are in it for themselves. Ask questions to ascertain if they stand for corporations or the 99%.
Follow their stance on issues, not the ribbon cutting ceremonies. Do they stand up for and fight their convictions?
Are they leaders that sponsor or co-sponsor new legislation?

[totodeinhere]

81. Who gets to decdie who is a real Democrat and who isn't?

The Democratic Party has thrived as a big tent party. And the only way we can win in may parts of the country is as a big tent.

[Old and In the Way]

14. Do as you want, it's a free country. But don't kid yourself.

You have 4 options.

1) Vote for Obama
2) Vote for the Republican
3) Don't vote
4) Vote 3rd Party

Only 1 helps Democrats and progressives. The rest of the options help elect the Republican.

I'm living the effect in Maine...62% of the people split their vote for the Democrat and the Independent. The teabagger got elected on 38% of the vote.

[hack89]

17. Moral purity means you can't consider the results of your actions.

being pure and superior is all that matters.

[hack89]

20. A lot lower than anything President Obama has done. nt

[DonCoquixote]

67. how much

less immporal than people who know they are helping the GOP win for their "goals"
Evidence in point: tell me that a Gore presidency would have done as much damage as a Bush one.
If you feel it was worth it, then you better be prepared to speak to all the dead iraqis and US soliders.

[DonCoquixote]

209. ok, you voted for gore

So you should know exactly why letting any GOP in worse; we went down this road, we know that Mitt will be a "compassionate conservative", then use his influence to hand the GOP what they want, all they want. And yes, if a voter, someone who could have prevented the Gap from getting in, choose not to, then yes, the voter will be to blame for whatever Mitt does.

[LanternWaste]

179. one has the strength of their convictions.

"Moral purity means..." one has the strength of their convictions.

Many meanings, many interpretations (many absolutists too..).

[Sheepshank]

246. Bless their pointy little heads

we are living with the results of those who sat out in 2010.

What a point they made!!! What progress has been made!!!! What great and wonderful assistance the unemployed, union and middle class constituents are enjoying. I wish i could find and appropriate way to give thanks.

[provis99]

45. "It's a free country". Yeah, ok, bub.

[grantcart]

62. Kidding one's self is essential to the 'no difference between the two' crowd.

[arely staircase]

82. if we had a parlaimentary system i would vote for Green Party candidates

so at the end of the day they could form a government with Dems or other progressives. But our constitutuion (without explicitly saying it) does create a two party system. so i vote for the most progressive candidate with a a real chance of winning. for president in 2012 that candidate is obama.

[Old and In the Way]

89. Sadly, that's the political reality...today.

But...I can see a day in the not to far future that the Republican Party splits into at least 2 factions - the corporate/wealthiest 1% + wannabees/libertarians and a Christianist Party with an amalgam of teabaggers/cultural conservatives, bigots, end timers, racists, and homophobes. Could happen this year if the Republican Party goes into the convention and has a real fight that essential splits the convention along those lines.

Now, if that should happens, I do think the Democratic will be ripe for a similar cleaving - maybe the moderate mainstream, traditional Party and a significant minority of activists that are focused on a more progressive agenda (environmentalists, alternative energy, economic restructuring, social justice).

Having a political universe of 4 or 5 healthy political entities would be good and I think we can start creating coalitions that can drive real change in this country. But until the other side cracks, it would be suicidal to split the Party and concede the future to the teapublicans.

[arely staircase]

92. very good post, with only one problem

coalitions can be formed in the congress but the presidency is winner take all. so if you have four or five candidates you really just assure the election of one of the two candidates (repub. or dem.) who has to deal with the fewer of the two or three others who are like minded.

[Old and In the Way]

108. That's true....trying to game this out.

4 candidates get a share of the electoral college, but no majority, so it gets kicked into the House of Reps? Essentially, they become the voters....and it breaks down onto Party lines? Be interesting to read up on how such a scenario plays out. I've always believed a true 3rd Party is a long term effort....you need to build it from the bottom up, getting candidates elected at local/state, then national. You need a real infrastructure, and, if you want a President that's not a Democrat or Republican, you're going to need votes in Congress.

[Charlemagne]

90. "Only 1 helps Democrats and progressives."

Gotta disagree.

one option helps Obama

the other helps progressives.

[Old and In the Way]

119. What option, other than voting for Obama, helps progressives?

2, 3, or 4? Must be 3, 'cuz I remember how much voting 3rd party really helped the cause between 2000 and 2008.

I guess the control of the various Departments don't count? Supreme Court? Foreign policy?

[Charlemagne]

120. Yep

Because the decisions of the Supreme Court and US Foreign Policy has certainly reflected the progressive agenda.

[Old and In the Way]

127. Yep

Bush did give us Aliato and Roberts and we did inherit a mess in the ME. But Gore would have been just as bad and he'd have screwed the economy with those 2003 taxcuts, too!

[Charlemagne]

128. you guys

still having problems with the governor. Im on the Maine Peoples Alliance listserve. Seems he has an avid 'fan club' so to say.

all the best!

[Old and In the Way]

134. Thanks! To use one of the Governor's favorite expressions, "He's an asshole".

But that's what we get when 62% split the vote.

[Martin Eden]

145. Stop being such a realist!

Yes, 3/4 of those options will help put a Republican in the White House, but how do you expect someone to live with themselves voting for Obama despite feeling betrayed by him? It's much more comforting knowing you kept your principles intact, even if the result is war with Iran and the opening of the floodgates to a host of rethug priorities like elimination of the social safety net and environmental protection.

Victory for the 1% is a small price to pay for sticking to your guns on election day!

[vi5]

153. "Only 1 helps Democrats and progressives"

That presupposes that those 2 things are at all linked any more beyond the most tenuous, flimsy, and historical connections.

Voting for a progressive 3rd party candidate over a conservative Democrat helps progressives far more than enabling the conservative Democrat.

Helping Democrats is a much different beast than helping progressives. Assuming that helping 1 helps the other and vice versa, is naive at best at this point

[Old and In the Way]

167. So, I guess you'll be voting for Teddy Roosevelt next November?

Voting for a progressive 3rd party candidate over a conservative Democrat helps progressives far more than enabling the conservative Democrat. Ralph Nader, Somewhere on the campaign trail, 2000

[vi5]

174. Voting for a conservative democrat...

Only helps the Democratic party. If you're still foolish enough to believe that the Democratic party is a Progressive party rather than a "not as conservative as Republicans" party then direct your laughter at your own foolish naivete. Your goal is clearly to help a political party no matter what actions they take rather than to enact progressive values and legislation. That's fine. Good for you. 25 years of doing that is enough for me. I look around and see what that type of thinking has gotten us and I bear a good chunk of the blame for that because of my quarter century of enabling. It's about time I start trying to actually reverse some of the damage I've caused.

I'm sure even Nader didn't anticipate the bills that Obama has been signing and plans on signing.

[Old and In the Way]

180. You're a youngster!...I got 40 years under my belt.

I'm curious where all of these progressives are hiding out? Do you think they make up only 2% of the voters? That's about what Ralph got in 2000, I believe. Or do they just not vote and hang out on DU to complain about the results?

[vi5]

188. I don't base my opinions on how many people agree with me....

If only 2% of the population agree with me then so be it. I'm not a Nader voter and I never will be. The man himself is a clown. But keep putting up that straw man. I've voted straight Democratic ticket every single election, national and local since I was 18.

And actually I was rounding down. I've been enabling the Democratic party for 30 years actually. If you can look around at the shit state this country is in after 40 years of literal blood sweat and tears spent getting Democrats elected and that the political process is in and can honestly say that the Democratic party has had nothing to do with that, and that they haven't been just as responsible for buying into Republican framing and lurching the country as far rightward as it's gone then good for you.

[fascisthunter]

16. good for you

I mean it

[one_voice]

18. It's your vote...

do with it as you wish.

Yes I do know what you mean, you believe Obama is evil, just like the pugs.

As long as you can look yourself in the mirror that's all that matters.

[Chef Eric]

32. "Evil"? Good thing you're here to tell us what other people believe. nt

[one_voice]

35. The OP told us what s/he thinks...

From the OP..

Again I Will Not Play The Lesser Of Two Evil Political Game in 2012 I think many here know what I mean by that statement.

Subject line: I Will Not PlayThe Lesser Of Two Evil Political Game in 2012


I didn't have to tell anyone anything. I used the OP's own words. Lesser of two evils---both evil--one more than the other.

[Old and In the Way]

77. No fair...now your making him think.

[grantcart]

63. or alternatively you could just read the OP where Obama is labelled 'evil'.

[Capitalocracy]

21. If you can't bring yourself to vote in the presidential race...

I implore you to check out your national representatives and local candidates and see if there's someone you can vote for, and if so, go and vote for them.

[arely staircase]

93. yep

who you elect to your state legislature could determine a lot.

[Whisp]

23. ok. when you find that perfect, flawless world, make sure to send us notice.

[WilliamPitt]

24. THEN GO VOTE REPUBLICAH WHAAAAARGARBLE!!!1!!1!1!

Sorry. Just trying to get ahead of the curve.

[emulatorloo]

25. Your second paragraphs reaches almost Beckian levels of Hyperbole.

[dionysus]

55. "a chill sweeps the land. we are all doooomed...."

[customerserviceguy]

26. All we can do is set the stage for improvement of our choices in 2016

For some, that would mean having a Democratic President who abides by some of our ideals, or having a Rethug President who cares about few, if any of them, in order to provoke a counter-reaction by the public.

Good luck living peacefully through the latter circumstance.

[karynnj]

30. I've seen your posts in the past, so I am willing to bet that you will vote for Obama

Why?

The same reason I realized in 2008 that i would both vote for and canvas for Hillary Clinton, who I really strongly disliked for various reasons not worth mentioning. The reason - Bush vetoed an extension of Schip, children's health insurance - and I knew that NO Democrat would have done that.

[kath]

129. well, we used to think that no Democrat would put cuts to Social Security and Medicare on the table,

and that no Democrat would support tax cuts for the rich (who already have historically low income tax rates)...

And I also used to think that no Democrat would support torture or totally fucking trash the Bill of Rights...

[Martin Eden]

146. If you really care about those issues ...

... then will you choose the best possible option in the voting booth among the available candidates who have a chance of winning the election?

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. Is that your Formal Declaration?

I've always wondered about people who make such a big deal about publicly stating their personal intentions.

It comes off as both arrogant and piddling.

[frazzled]

38. Oh wow, that's so principled.

(Not.) Glad that you feel the need to let the world know via your keyboard. It's so compelling.

But go for it, I say. Knock yourself out. Then you can play the "Evil Republican President" game in 2013. That will be REALLY fun.

[usregimechange]

41. It isn't the lesser of two evils, it's fair compared to horrible, pretty easy decision for me

[demosincebirth]

47. too bad Gus Hall isn't around any more, you might like him

[RiffRandell]

48. Thou shalt try not to consider people douchebags.

I feel your pain.

[quaker bill]

51. There is no alternative

Not voting for the lesser evil is an endorsement of the greater evil. By not choosing, you have still chosen. Inaction is an illusion. One has voted just as surely by not casting a ballot, as by casting a ballot. There is no other more "moral" place to be. The notion that such a place exists is self serving delusion.

[A Simple Game]

78. I don't know where you got all of your ideas about the OP. I read it twice and

I get the impression that if someone doesn't vote for the lesser of two evils, they will also not vote for the greater of two evils.

I saw nowhere where it was said no vote would be cast. Myself I am all done voting for the lesser of two evils, but I will vote for a President of the United States. My vote will go to the most patriotic and liberal candidate on the ballot.

So you are good at telling others how they should vote, how do you plan to vote? Are you going to vote for the most patriotic person on the ballot, or are you going to waste your vote?

[dionysus]

53. oooh, the melodrama...

[NYC Liberal]

56. Do what you wish. n/t

[Odin2005]

57. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000

[WillyT]

60. May I Add Some More Zeros ???

000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

Don't have time for the commas...



K & R !!!

[ellenfl]

59. that attitude is why we are in the sh*t we're in now. thanks for not voting and

taking us down with you. can't wait to see what the next repub prez has in store for us.

ellen fl

[ChadwickHenryWard]

130. Are you serious?

I'm sorry, but the Democrat won the last election. Since Obama is pursuing policies with which the OP disagrees, how is voting for him again going to solve that?

[ellenfl]

229. how is letting one of the current crop of repub wannabes win because some refuse to vote help anyone

but the corporatists? too many of us staying home will surely give us worse than bushco. i guess that'll show us!

ellen fl

[Summer Hathaway]

66. "If you participate in OWS activity's you better be prepared -

- in the coming months to be declared an ENEMY of The State."

Can I quote you on that in the coming months?

I remember when all liberals were going to be dragged off in the middle of the night to be incarcerated in FEMA-operated prisons by W.

Guess you're one of the ones who got away - or do you have a laptop in your cell?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

68. Don't not vote: here's why

There are undoubtedly some important down-ballot votes coming up in your state.

In Minnesota, for example, we have to defeat an anti-gay measure. If the left stays home, it will pass.

Do what you will with the vote for president, but your state and local officials have much more influence on your everyday life than any president.

Why not voting is useless:

Even now, only about 50% of Americans vote. Yet each time one of the parties wins, they proclaim a "landslide." Reagan's "landslide" was only 27% of eligible voters.

Even if only 10% of the population voted, and 6% went for the R's and 4% went for the D's (because the R's were more motivated), the R's would STILL proclaim a landslide.

Voting, no matter whom you vote for, makes you visible.

Not voting makes you invisible.

[Meshuga]

70. +1

Well said!

[dflprincess]

86. And, even if there aren't any down ballot votes

show up and file a blank ballot - it's the only way to say "none of the above".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

69. I hope you enjoy your greater evil, then, and it looks like it may be pretty great. N.T.

[L0oniX]

72. I'll vote for Obama but I won't like it.

I'd rather have a real choice between him and an honest, real progressive.

[arely staircase]

74. i disagree with your premise - that president obama is evil

but let's say he is for the sake of argument. following your logic, we should stand back and let the greater evil win? makes no sense to me.

[Javaman]

83. check out Rocky Anderson's party. The Justice party. He's a progressive dem.

has some good ideas.

[El Prezidente Kaboom]

117. Rocky just got in the race.

Buddy Roemer, on the other hand, has been running a rogue campaign in the Republican primary for awhile and is a far stronger orator and fighter. His top 3 priorities are 1.) campaign finance reform. 2.) regulate Wall Street & corporate tax reform 3.) fair trade reform, stop american businesses from having to compete with prison labor.
And he has got the credibility and experience to do it all. He's the only candidate who's been a Governor, a Congressman, and the president of a CRA regulated bank that didn't receive, ask, or need a bailout.

I'm a progressive. I'm voting for a Republican who's fighting against the entire freaking system.

Occupy Everything.

[Javaman]

154. a progressive voting repuke. Right, have fun with that.

let me know how it works out for you.

[Titonwan]

163. Yes

It didn't quite jibe with me, either. Rocky's the man (if it's even possible anymore).

[Lex]

85. Making no move IS in fact move in this game. nt

[Charlemagne]

87. Very well said

I concur

[onenote]

95. and yet another person who hasn't read the NDAA proudly displays their ignorance

[ZenLefty]

97. I consider a vote for Obama to be a vote for the greater good.

Never once thought of him as the lesser of two evils.

[apples and oranges]

105. Quick question

So you made the decision not to vote? Good for you! But, may I ask, why are you here? Why would you come onto a site called Democratic Underground to post that you don't plan to vote and will be willing to have Newt Gingrich appoint the next 2 to 3 Supreme Court nominees?

[quinnox]

122. Its a bit ironic if you look at the OP's profile

And then look at yours, that he has been here 5 years longer than you have.

[Liberal In Texas]

107. Gosh I miss the unrec.

Friend, it isn't good, but the alternative is fascism and the destruction of this country as we know it.

Yes, it is the lesser of the two evils. If you don't vote or vote for a "Nader" you vote for the downfall of the country. Quite simply.

[jtrockville]

109. I think it's (past) time to focus energy on getting instant run-off.

[CakeGrrl]

111. Throwing away your right to vote? Don't complain about the outcome. -nt

[airplaneman]

126. Just another opinion

I have always thought if you do not vote you are giving more power to those who will vote. The less of us that vote the more liklely it will be somone we do not want who will win. Battles are always won in increments and help out by those like OWS participants who are crusading for a bigger cause. There are always battles and we will loose some here and there but the war wages on. Giving up amounts to allowing those that do not to win. I cannot in good conscious not vote. I also cannot in good conscious not suport OWS and be there when the demand for change takes form. I cannot in good conscious not put people in front of money. Freedom is the right to make choices. Not everyone will agree with me.
-Airplane

[bhikkhu]

132. How did you ever make it this far into the baloney-fest?

The NDAA is only the latest trumped up pseudo-news that Obama has been bashed with. If your strings are getting yanked around over this one, I'd guess you have been puppeted around by far more compelling stories. For instance, how could you have possibly gotten past all those times Obama was going to slash Social Security and Medicare, or when he was going to eliminate Planned Parenthood, or NPR?

All sarcasm aside, if you want an informed opinion, I'd recommend you gain it through your own effort rather than adopting the opinions of others. Read the bill, rather than the baloney that has been posted about it.

[Scootaloo]

136. All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Righteous non-action is surely going to change the world.

[RBInMaine]

137. DUMB fringe "Stay home to punish the Dems" thinking. Are you an adult or a toddler?

[ProSense]

138. Would

anyone like to provide feedback on this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/100226022

[DeathToTheOil]

140. Then you shall have the GREATER of two evils

Enjoy!

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

141. I will play the game

Very simple game. Straight ticket vote. D vs R. Pick D.

Then go home, have a cuppa coffee, enjoy the rest of the day.

[DeathToTheOil]

148. You have to

The people here complaining about Obama don't seem to realize that, most of the time in politics, it really is a choice between the lesser of two (or three, or four) evils.

[pintobean]

143. Follow your own conscience

is always the best prescription. The quacks telling you what to do are advancing what they want, not what's best for you. We all have to live with our own decisions.

[Island Blue]

147. It's good to see that the New DU

is the same as the Old DU. What's next a thread declaring your intention to leave DU and take your kickball with you? Those are my favorite.

[groundloop]

149. Let me think - will I vote for someone I agree with 90% of the time

or someone I agree with 30% of the time. NO, I'm a perfectionist, I'll only vote for someone who's 100% in agreement with me, or else I'll whine and make a big fuss about him. Yeah, that's the way a democracy works. And while I'm at it I'll see if I can get others to not vote as well, and maybe if enough people don't vote then the 30% candidate can win and that'll teach everybody.

[MineralMan]

157. Write yourself in for President, then, and

vote for good legislators. Writing yourself in is the only way you're going to be able to vote for a candidate who agrees with you on all issues.

[WI_DEM]

160. I'll bet you didn't in 2000 either.

I'm sure most people here know what I mean by that.

[abelenkpe]

161. You don't have a choice

You don't vote and things will get worse for you and everyone else. Best thing would be to vote and participate in OWS. If you don't vote you're just giving up and giving in.

[Titonwan]

162. Ross 'Rocky' Anderson with the Justice Party

If it's a wasted vote for what I want, then it's at least aimed in the right direction. Barack gets nothing from me (he's taken quite enough, doncha think?).

[Sheepshank]

247. "he's taken quite enough, doncha think?" bull n/t

[closeupready]

164. Since as I've been told over the last three years here, the presidency is an impotent office,

beholden to the whims of Congress, I guess it really doesn't matter how we vote or who wins.

The salient point is to focus on Congress, no the presidency. So K&R for your honesty.

[pasto76]

170. then you can deal with the GREATER of two evils for the next eight years.

the last three years have shown me that LIBERALS love nothing more than to bitch and moan about everything. This is reality, not some liberal fairy tale.

[stevenleser]

176. Yep. 90% of the 2000 Nader voters I know realized their mistake when Bush turned out much more

horrible than they thought he could be.

I guarantee you that whoever the 'pugs nominate in 2012 will be much worse than many of you think.

[patrice]

171. By S*A*Y*I*N*G you won't play whatever game, you're playing their game.

Your power is in independence and that is maintained by silence about certain things.

[Zorra]

173. *sigh* I totally understand your frustration. But Occupying the inauguration of President Gingrich

is not an option and is something I never, ever want to have to do.

[daggahead]

175. President Obama vs 1% Corporate Shill

That will be our choice in 2012.

Also, I will vote for President Obama in hopes that if any of the Supremes retires/dies/gets impeached, the new appointee will understand that the Constitution was written by people, for people, rather than for corporations.

[HisTomness]

177. I, for one, will not give up. /nt

[LanternWaste]

178. an average guy and a citizen vying for change.

"If you participate in OWS activity's you better be prepared in the coming months to be declared an ENEMY of The State..."

No thanks. I'll declare myself as I have, as I do, and as I will-- an average guy and a citizen vying for change. I admit, it's not very melodramatic, yet it doesn't cheapen my position either; nor does anything other than a wrist-watch go on my arm (crap... it's not even digital).

Of course I admit that "enemy of the state" sounds rather theatrical and breathtaking (what composer do we imagine writing the background score to your Feds-chase-down-angry-political-activist thriller-- Hans Zimmer?), but as I do try to remain realistic, I just can't bring myself to use it.

What I am prepared to do in the coming months is to continue affecting change in this country and vote for the Democratic nominee for President-- and as much as that may piss off a horde of freepers, and maybe you, can't really say I'm sorry.

[T S Justly]

183. Yes K&R (nt)

[Emillereid]

184. Wow -- I feel the opposite. I plan to work my butt off for the democrats and Barack Obama because

allowing the yahoo fascists on the other side to win is UNFATHOMABLE! I'm old enough to realize that progress happens in inches -- that arch of history MLK was talking about is a very large curve. Why not work to give Obama the biggest majority in history and then see what he does.

[99Forever]

185. I will vote, BUT...

.. like you I will not cast a vote "for the lesser." I will write in a candidate that represents my values and doesn't just give pretty speeches. I will never again in what's left of my lifetime, listen to the fear-mongers tired refrains nor feel a bit of guilt when they point their boney fingers at me and try to lay the blame for THEIR failures at my feet. NO candidate deserves my vote until they earn it. None of them. I went as far as being an alternate delegate to the Democratic State Convention here for a particular successful candidate in 2008, who has disappointed me more than I can stand since. It won't happen again in 2012.

[wundermaus]

186. I submit that voting for the lesser of two evils ultimately is no choice at all.

The observed evidence of (over 40 years) results so far in our political reality is that both major parties represent exclusively the rich and powerful segments of our society and most certainly not the vast popular needs and desires of the voting public. I submit that the only peaceful way to extract democracy from such a system is to elect a third party candidate who actually represents the vast majority of the people and their best interests. Th choice of the lesser of two evils is a false choice, in fact, a deception. At least with a third party candidate, a vote of no confidence for the two major parties is expressed. Otherwise, we as the voting citizens of our nation are rendered frivolous. Voting within the confines of the two major political parties is slavery by a thousand cuts.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

187. It's a good cop/bad cop sucker game to keep the establishment in power.

[TreasonousBastard]

189. In other words-- you're giving up in a hissy fit just because things didn't turn out...

just like you hoped they would.

It is, however, a sorry fact that things NEVER turn out just like we hope they would. This is a huge country in a huge world where nobody, for whatever reasons, happens to agree with you on everything and damn few agree with you on anything.

Shit-- just look at this thread, and the dozens like it. We're supposed to be on the same side and we can't agree on how to solve the problems. We don't even agree on what the problems are.

Me, I'm gonna work to get some people re-elected. Obama included.

If I get just one other vote for our side, I've done my work, If we all get just one vote for our side, we're invincible.

[aquart]

191. No, you bloody well won't.

You will grow up instead of figuratively holding your breath till you turn blue.

Refusing to compromise is what THEY do. THEY are destroying us.

[frazzled]

193. You just did

By naming it "the lesser of two evils political game" you're exactly the one who's playing it. Hope it's fun for ya.

[gateley]

194. Thanks for the heads up and prediction. nt

[Frances]

197. "I will not play the lesser of 2 evil political game"

is what one acquaintance said when he refused to vote for Pat Brown for governor of CA when Reagan ran against Brown.

Where would we be today if Brown had defeated Reagan?

Think about it.

[saras]

198. What a STUPID waste of time in defense of the spoiler effect, which is both harmful and unnecessary

I will, until my death, fight the two-party winner-take-all system in favor of proportional representation, multiple parties, and secondary vote preferences that allow more people to vote for the policies and directions they prefer.

But in the meantime, if I have to vote that the policy of including sexual minorities in our military slaughter of brown people in the Middle East for oil, while still tolerating them being lynched here in America, is better than throwing them out of the military and having the military join in the domestic killings, well, I guess I have to vote for Obama.

[KILL THE WISE ONE]

202. POTUS Gingrich will thank you for your non-vote

[Veracious]

203. Then you'd better start a Revolution or sit down.

If we lose to Republican's you will get worse and have ZERO say! Enough we must work within the system to elect progressive people to office who will undo this type of legislation we do not want.

[Inchworm]

205. If you don't vote, take a seat and watch

[lunatica]

211. Another "Look at Me!" thread

Do or don't do whatever you want.

[swilton]

213. Thank you rsmith

We are playing from the same sheet of music.

[SoonerShankle]

214. So, let me get this right...

...this post has over 200 replies discussing the "right" to complain. So when did we become so mired in the minutia that the big picture was muddied beyond recognition. With the semantic hairsplitting, I'd better carefully select each and every word, as I will be skewered otherwise.

As I read this, the main point I saw being argued was whether or not voting equates action. I agree with many of the above statements, but no one has changed my mind in that I will still vote for the lesser of two evils because I rather be responsible for the lesser than the greater. And I'm perfectly willing to accept that responsibility. And while I have the "right" to choose whether or not to vote, I believe it is a civic responsibility of a citizen to be involved in our government of the people, by the people, and for the people regardless of what that involvement looks like. Voting (or not voting) can be a form of collective action. Just don't have buyers remorse. Learn and move forward.

Obama is not my favorite. He was not my original choice, but I'll be damned if I'm gonna let any of the Republicans running into the White House just because I don't like Obama and don't agree with him. What Obama has or hasn't done is a pittance compared to what will happen should the right wingers get back into the Executive Office. I do believe that not voting is a form of acquiesence unless it is a highly organized tactic designed to elicit a specific change.

But I also understand that many others who feel differently. I just hope that you can honestly live with a President Gingrich or President Romney and feel better about it than having President Obama. I still contend that pulling the liberal/progressive base in this country together is like herding cats. And agree or disagree, rather than discussing specific points we are attacking each other.

As far as the original post, I agree with you point for point with the exception of not voting. I see the Occupy movement being ridiculed and demonized, when I greatly admire the people truly attempting to learn the basics of organizing and rallying around a particular cause. Congress does need a major overhaul, but it will do little good to replace seasoned corrupt politicians who at least understand how to write a bill with novice corrupt politicians who are at the mercy of their corporate electors. Focus on election reform first, then focus on the those being elected. Even the honest man who goes to DC leaves corrupted. It's systemic at this point. I'd just rather try to fix the problem than put a band-aid on it or cut my nose off to spite my face.

Best wishes, and I hope to see you all at the polls in 2012.

[Cal33]

215. If you will not play the-lesser-of-two-evils game, how about playing

vote for "the-better-of-the-two-parties" game? That should satisfy your
conscience.

[jwirr]

224. That is your decision. Please think about voting for congress critters at least. That will at least

leave some protection for those of us who are totally dependent on things like Social Security etc. We cannot just turn it all over to the rethugs. I can say this as I have two good senators and a representative who is going to get his ass kicked out of there in 2012 (Craavack).

[cyglet]

233. Amy voted for NDAA too n/t

[stevenleser]

226. Sometimes we get the government we deserve. If you dont vote and we get Newt, you will deserve it nt

[NorthCarolina]

228. You could write in Sen. Bernie Sanders name on the ballot for President. nt

[cyglet]

234. That's what I'm going to do

it is important that I vote locally.

[NorthCarolina]

236. That is also what my current line of thinking is.

I'm a progressive, and intend to vote for progressive candidates where I can. Where I can't, I feel my only choice is to cast a write-in ballot. I can no longer buy into voting for a conservative candidate solely because he is slightly better than the alternative conservative candidate.

[proud patriot]

232. I think this is an over-reaction and people should place the blame on those who put this in.

the President doesn't have a line item veto here. He needs majority in congress to remove this awful provision that will likely die in the courts. So you sitting out the next election seems to run against your goal IMHO. my mother in law uses the term "cutting your nose off despite your face"

[madokie]

235. Thanks for letting us know up front.

I'll see if I can make sure someone who doesn't ever vote vote in your absence, hell I might even find a couple to up the ante some more even.
Thanks for getting my ass in gear

[McCamy Taylor]

237. Me neither. I ALWAYS vote for the Democrat.

[Sheepshank]

243. I have no time for this type of idiocy

I'm too busy trying to make sure a Rep doesn't get in office and move the country in a backward direction. At least with a Dem majority (what I'm hoping for), a Dem President has a better chance. And yes what ever it takes to keep pure evil out of the White house is a good enough reason for me.

May you be happy in the life you are about to chose.

[Motown_Johnny]

244. So instead you play the lesser of three evils political game in 2012

You seem to be ignoring that not voting at all, or voting for someone who has no chance of winning, is also an evil.

Choose the lesser of the three evils and vote for the most progressive candidate who has a chance at winning.

[otohara]

245. Trying to Think of an Evil Democrat

John Edwards turned out to be a huge disappointment.

I can think of many evil republican's - where to start....dick cheney, george bush, condi rice, donald rumsfeld, newt, nixon, mcconnell, l. graham, donald trump, colin powell, and a host of others.