One thing NOBODY is talking aobut with Dorner, LAPD....

[Bennyboy]

L.A.P.D. shot up the paper delivery truck 64 times. 64 times. With people (targets) inside the truck unable to flee or even move. Neither of the occupants are dead.

Then there's the surfer do0o0od who was fired on by Torrance Cops. Trapped in his truck as well. And he didn't even get hit. Over 30 shots. And they all missed.

Now it would seem to me that these are trained officers who have tons and tons of experience with firearms. But they can't hit anything in the heat of battle (For lack of a better word). 65 shots and not one kill shot (Thankfully). Where did all the rounds go? All over the neighborhood?

[monmouth3]

1. L.A.P.D. are sort of reminding me of the old Keystone Kops. Glad they missed though..n/t

[Bennyboy]

2. It is almost funny.

If it weren't so tragic.

[AtheistCrusader]

42. They didn't entirely miss. They just failed to kill.

One of the victims took two bullets in the back, the other got one in the hand.

[Buzz Clik]

49. Only two bullets hit their targets. Just two.

Neighbors cars, trees were peppered, but not the intended victims.

On one level, thank God!

On the "serve and protect" level -- Seriously? You can't hit a damned thing?

And then there's the notion of more guns being the answer. These trained killers cannot hit a god damned thing even when no one is shooting at them. What about your average idiot on the street with a permit?

[oldbanjo]

78. Some people can hit targets all day lone but

put a deer in front of them and they can't hit it, the cops are the same their getting nervous. I have hunted a lot and never get nervous. Everybody is different.

[Buzz Clik]

87. I totally get that, but I do not understand.

2% hit rate? Talk about spray and pray. These guys are a danger to the public.

[randome]

89. I would think a larger target misleads the eye and therefore the aim.

If they were shooting at the two individuals standing apart from the truck, they would likely have had better 'luck'.

[graham4anything]

3. That shows the cops are not looking to kill those just disable the vehicles

I'd say that is a good thing.

Though Zimmerman shot one person and killed him dead.
And Dorner shot those people dead.

that says the cops are not assasssinators.

Which is a good thing.

(now the NYC cops that shoot people 41, 50 times).

But collateral damage, injuries by non-enforcement all can be prevented if we only get rid of guns and bullets from the street.

legal and illegal.

[farminator3000]

6. disable by shooting up the tailgate?

did you see the pic of the truck?

were the tires even flat?

i think the prob. is that cops do 'target practice', but aren't trained mentally to stay calm under stress.

aren't they supposed to yell- 'stick both hands out the window' b4 starting to shoot? i should hope so...

and then perhaps notice that said hands are Caucasian?

[Angry Dragon]

10. ..........

[ProgressiveProfessor]

14. The only thing worse than LAPD cops are members of Bloomberg's private army

That many rounds means that they were out of control, not that they were shooting to stop the vehicle.

[pinboy3niner]

16. The 71-year-old passenger shot twice in the back might disagree. nt

[uponit7771]

18. unnnn, no....

[Hissyspit]

22. No, it doesn't.

[MynameisBlarney]

27. really?

The pics I saw of the truck looked like they were sprayin and prayin.

I think the LAPD is scared shitless right now, and all of the officers are twitchy.

This Dorner guy may be insane, but the LAPD IS without a doubt, corrupt.

And they are likely wanting to kill him as opposed to catching him.

[randome]

32. I think it was 2 incompetent detectives, not the entire police force 'scared shitless'.

But who is to really say?

[MynameisBlarney]

48. Only 2

so far.

[kestrel91316]

60. Last I heard, LAPD put 7 officers on office duty or paid suspension

pending the investigation into the newspaper truck shootings.

[Hekate]

75. Two? What about the surfer dude in Torrance? WTF on steroids

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/09/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210

Police seeking Dorner opened fire in a second case of mistaken identity

Torrance police say the man was driving a pickup resembling the fugitive's. The incident happened just after the LAPD fired on women delivering newspapers nearby.
February 09, 2013|By Robert Faturechi and Matt Stevens, Los Angeles Times

David Perdue was on his way to sneak in some surfing before work Thursday morning when police flagged him down. They asked who he was and where he was headed, then sent him on his way.

Seconds later, Perdue's attorney said, a Torrance police cruiser slammed into his pickup and officers opened fire; none of the bullets struck Perdue.

These are the trained professionals supposedly protecting the citizens of Los Angeles and anyone having to drive through it?

[Fantastic Anarchist]

97. They probably had their eyes closed while spraying!

[UnrepentantLiberal]

30. Cops always shoot to kill.

Always.

[AtheistCrusader]

41. Someone stole my tailgate, and I haven't been able to drive for a WEEK!

Also explains all the bullet holes through the rear window, right about where a human head will be.

I suppose a CNS hit on the driver would 'disable' the vehicle well enough.

[Marr]

50. Have you ever considered that you might revere authority figures too much?

Seriously, that statement about police intent when shooting is so far from reality, and demonstrably so. But you went straight to that rationalization.

[graham4anything]

58. It's hellva lot closer to reality than idolizing some private person going through a shopping list

of people he is going to kill.

Agatha Christie's 10 little indians comes to mind.
exccept that was fiction and one cuoldn't figure the ending.


there is nothing noble about Dorner.

but of course, feel free to disagree and/or idolize Dorner.

anti-heroes are never someone to idolize.

BTW, a song applies
Waylon Jennings (c) "Don't you think this outlaw shit done got out of hand"
talking about fictional images/personaas, meshing with real people thinking that is a good thing.

[Marr]

83. There again, is just fundamentally flawed thinking.

Not revering the cops here does not mean you idolize Dorner. I think he's a nut who needs to be captured or killed as soon as possible.

I also think the LAPD is a thoroughly corrupt outfit that seems to view civilians as nothing but collateral damage, and that they have a gang-like mindset. They shot and killed a man just up the street from me last year who was watering his lawn, and said they thought he was holding a gun. Two years ago, they beat a homeless man to death just a few miles away.

I don't think you understand how badly the LAPD is regarded here in Los Angeles, or how well-earned is their reputation.

[graham4anything]

98. I am from NYC where they fire 41 or 50 times. Yes, I know. HOWEVER

that is 100% irrelevant to the last few days events.

[Marr]

100. It's not about the number of shots fired.

It *is* about the LAPD's gang-like mentality, that has them brazenly firing on citizens, as if they're just collateral damage.

[kudzu22]

52. Only on TV

do they shoot to disable a vehicle. In real life, if you shoot, you mean to kill someone. These cops meant to kill the drivers of those vehicles. Thank God they are such horrible shots, but what if one of those stray bullets had gone through someone's window and killed a kid?

One thing they teach you in gun safety is that every bullet you fire has a lawyer attached to it.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

69. Wow.

This is the lamest thing I've ever read on here.



That's the truck. Houses and other vehicles were also hit. Cops ALWAYS shoot to kill. Thankfully in this case these cops were poor marksmen.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

73. Actually, it shows total panic.

[Hekate]

81. That was exactly what I thought, esp. after they took down the surfer's car

The LAPD (or some of them) have lost their ever lovin' minds. Panic, not plan.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

82. To top it off, two cops shooting hear each other's shots,...

....and think they are receiving returning fire.

My question - Do they keep going until they are out of bullets?

That's really dumb. It leaves them vulnerable for ACTUAL returning fire.

[Marr]

86. They openly espouse the position that if they feel threatened, they err on the side of

"protecting themselves", which always seems to mean unloading their weapon into someone's car/chest/etc.

I would say that the whole "I felt like my life was in danger" is a pretty shitty defense when it turns out that their life was not in danger, and that it proves they're too chickenshit to be a cop. But the LAPD doesn't seem to agree.

[CBGLuthier]

79. Bullshit

If you think that the cops were not trying to kill the occupants of that car well... I can think of no polite way to comment on your thinking processes but BULLSHIT.

All cops are trained from day one to shoot to kill. shoot to wound is nonsense. shoot to disable a car is nonsense. They shoot to KILL.

got it?

[obamanut2012]

95. lol

There is no such thing as a warning/disabling shot. It doesn't exist, especially for LEOs. Doing so is unsafe and against all training.

These cops were just freaked out, and bad shots like most LEOs seem to be.

[Brickbat]

4. Only Imperial stormtroopers are so precise.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. daaaaaaaamn

[backscatter712]

64. HAH! LAPD's trained at the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy! n/t

[2pooped2pop]

5. Where did all the rounds go? All over the neighborhood?

Yes, I think I read where many houses were hit as well as other vehicles. It could have been very tragic. At least to the families hit.

[Bennyboy]

7. It is going to be pretty spendy...

Anyway with three plaintiffs.

[X_Digger]

8. Talk to a local cop..

.. and you'll find out that most of their training is about paperwork and the law, not firearms. Administrative changes, changes in interpretation of local, state, and federal law- those are the things cops spend a lot of time on.

Most only use their guns once a year to re-qualify under very controlled conditions.

Many officers can go their whole career without ever drawing their gun and shooting at a suspect. Their training and qualification are commensurate with that reality.

[yellowcanine]

17. "...most of their training is about paperwork and the law..."

It would seem that they must have missed a few lessons, to say the least. Not opening fire on the wrong color vehicle with people inside who look nothing like the suspects would be right up at the top of lessons to be learned, I would think.

[X_Digger]

20. No doubt. n/t

[MynameisBlarney]

28. I guess the local cops where I'm at

have the paperwork part aced.
Because you can hear them at the gun range 7 days a week.

[X_Digger]

35. Some cops are also firearms enthusiasts, and there's also "SWAT".

But your average cop? Gets more use out of their seat belt cutter than their firearm.

[MynameisBlarney]

39. Perhaps

but this is a Police only shooting range.
And it is busy.

[laundry_queen]

107. Yeah, there's a minimum requirement

but most cops do the minimum for target practice and that's it. My SIL, a cop, went out and got her own handgun (here in Canada getting a handgun a few more steps than in the USA) so she could go to the range herself and get more practice as they leave their issued handguns at the station usually. She also talks about the amount of paperwork being totally overwhelming. She also spends a lot of time in court, testifying. She rarely draws her gun. Too much paperwork (required every time their gun leaves the holster).

[flobee1]

9. Ron White was dead on

[uponit7771]

21. Love Ron White...

[plethoro]

29. I'll never get that time back...........nft

ddddddddd

[loudsue]

31. He is funnier 'n hell. I love watching him.

There need to be more Ron White videos.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

66. Here's a judge in Nobody's Fool who expressed his thoughts about arming morons:

[RC]

72. That was good!

[yellowcanine]

11. Where did all the rounds go? Looks like a lot of them went into the truck.

Kind of puts the lie to the NRA line about "the way to stop bad guys with guns is good guys with guns", doesn't it. If trained police officers can't hit a person who is not shooting back, how the heck is someone with minimal or no training going to stop a determined shooter in a school?

[graham4anything]

13. Except for NRA coverperson Zimmy in Florida, it is so true.

It is the reason that arming everyone in school or a mall or a theatre don't work.

But banning ALL illegal and ALL legal guns from a street would work

IMHO

sigh, that it won't happen.(yet)

[flobee1]

15. and on that subject

why would someone getting paid MINIMUM WAGE with NO BENEFITS lay their life on the line. These security guards get paid taco bell wages. Its only part-time work.

Where I work, I depend on that security guard as a first line of defense/screener to detect weapons that might be used on me when I do my job-Freakin PAY THE MAN!

[harmonicon]

71. I've been saying for a long time...

that the two highest paid jobs in the country should be police officer and public school teacher. I can't think of two jobs where it's more important to have exactly the right person for the job, trained as well as humanly possible.

[caseymoz]

25. Imagine a school shooting if all the good guys shot this wild.

Armed good guys and gals could make it five times as bad. Like Colorado, imagine a crowded theater in the dark with gun panicky, gun toting amateurs trying to return fire.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. I can't think of a whole lot of legitimate self defense situations where

someone would be firing through 4+ layers of sheet metal into the back of a pickup with a handgun.

Ignoring the WTF shot grouping, this particular scenario should pretty much never happen in a legit self defense shooting.

LOL at the 'trained officers'. NYPD and LA are constantly competing for 'worst accuracy' in hit ratio, just out of nationwide police departments. Something like 24% or something. That's bad, compared to the police from other major metro areas nationwide. FBI released some statistics on this, and joe citizen actually fares better than either police department, likely because the scope of situations in which one legitimately uses lethal force in self defense precludes such 'law enforcement' apprehension type shootings like... this one.

[NutmegYankee]

12. Not uncommon with handguns.

In real life the accuracy of even trained personnel when reacting to an emergency (or a perceived one as in this case) is rather poor. The short barrel makes small adjustments in the wrist position send bullets several inches to feet off from the target, and that's assuming they were even aiming properly.

[blueamy66]

19. Then why even buy one, own one or shoot one?

If you use a handgun for protection (i.e. emergencies), wherein "accuracy is poor", why keep one in your house or in a holster on your person? Just gonna shoot and hope you hit the bad guy?

[NutmegYankee]

23. They are more effective at close range.

I shoot in competition with handguns (Olympics style targets) and they can be quite accurate if you have the training and patience. I can hold a 3 inch pattern fairly consistently at 25 yards. The gun isn't inaccurate - the person is.

The reason they are popular in law enforcement is the size and the fact that most engagements are at close range, where a handgun is still highly effective. At distances of 15 feet or less, the average person will land a few rounds. But you have to aim. And as has been seen many times, the approach taken in these types of engagements is "spray and pray".

[snagglepuss]

102. Off topic but your comments remind me of a comment I heard

a number of years ago by some sort of firearms/personal security expert on TV and I have always wondered whether he was giving sound advice. The expert said if anyone was approached by someone holding a gun the best option was to run as it is actually hard to hit a running target. He said the worst thing to do is stay close to someone holding a gun. Your thoughts.

[NutmegYankee]

103. I'd agree as long as you ran at an angle to him.

Running straight away would give the shooter a static target since you didn't move to him. Many people don't realize how hard it is to shoot accurately since we see action heros on TV made impossible shots constantly. It really is a sporting skill, hence the Olympics competitions in firearms and archery.

[snagglepuss]

104. Well that is good to know though I suppose the natural response is to freeze.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

24. It's as though

they have adopted the "drone" approach for police work. Collateral damage is acceptable as long as they get their man.

[randome]

26. The LAPD detectives who shot wildly should lose their guns and their jobs.

No one should be on the street with a gun who doesn't know how to use one.

[kudzu22]

61. And charged as well

for firing without warning at people who presented no threat. Sadly, I don't think they will be charged and probably won't lose their jobs either.

[Motown_Johnny]

33. That is why gun nuts need 100 round magazines!

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. FIL used to be a police psychologist and hostage negotiator.

These are actually low numbers. CHP are even worst shots.

SDPD are pretty good when compared. No police agency in the US is even close to movies. (though at a recent incident SDPD thankfully was, the theater was full to the gills, two shots fired, two shots connected to perp, perp on the way to the Hospital, the over penetrating round in the ceiling.

We designed a paper and pencil RPG which when first play tested was very accurate. (Shoot all day, get another box of ammo). But it was hardly cinematic in the Dirty Harry accuracy that Hollywood uses. Of course we had to futz it. We left those as an option in the hyper realistic rules...hyper realistic rules tended to incapacitate targets in one shot, maybe two as well.

The FBI has the statistics if you are ever curious.

This is why I laugh when average Dirty Harry wanna be sayz they can haz ht the target in a high stress situation.

[eppur_se_muova]

106. How useful is a pencil and paper rocket-propelled grenade ??

[nadinbrzezinski]

108. In the game setting

Like in real life, you don't want to get hit by one...no matter what rues were used...(ok the Hollywood ones you could, but they were highly unrealstic) you were an ex parrot. Take another character sheet and dice...

[W T F]

36. So what's the difference between the LAPD and the Street Gangs of LA?

[randome]

38. Well, it was 2 detectives who shot up the pickup.

This is conjecture on my part but I'm betting they didn't have much occasion to use their guns in the past and maybe they hadn't even been on the street that much.

[Bennyboy]

46. from the LATimes (Posted below)

Law enforcement sources told The Times that at least seven officers opened fire. On Friday, the street was pockmarked with bullet holes in cars, trees, garage doors and roofs. Residents said they wanted to know what happened.

[X_Digger]

47. Actually there were 7 officers (see link in #44 below). n/t

[randome]

53. I stand corrected.

Unless the story is corrected again. There is so far one reference to 'law enforcement sources' in the middle of the article. I'm not disputing this, just wondering how ANY situation could occur in which not one of 7 officers would think to check the inside of the truck first. I mean, that's enough to completely surround the occupants.

If they are THIS incompetent, it boggles the mind. And of course it's quite possible for me to have my mind boggled.

[yardwork]

59. Once one person starts shooting all the others are likely to do the same.

That's why all seven opened fire.

Why all seven were such terrible shots I don't know.

[randome]

62. Plus it sounds like they were guarding someone when word of the approach of the pickup came.

That does not excuse them. Every one of them should, at the very least, be off the street since they do not know how to handle a gun.

[yardwork]

63. Yes, I read the whole article. The department's spokesperson did a terrible job.

The spokesperson made it sound like the newspaper delivery women were at fault for driving erratically. It's similar to the other warning that black men should not wear hoodies right now. It's all about blaming the population and acting like the authorities have the right to do anything they want, no matter who dies.

Collateral damage.

[X_Digger]

65. I'm just as gobsmacked.

They were operating with a hair trigger (pun intended). If I understand correctly, these officers were patrolling some city official's neighborhood, which was a potential target based on early readings of the "manifesto".

Their fingers were itching to shoot someone, and a similar truck, idling through this neighborhood was a prime target for these idiots.

[logosoco]

37. This is something to be considered when the NRA talks about arming teachers...

it seems like they would also be under pressure to protect their students, whereas the cops in this case do not have that to think about.

[Bennyboy]

45. This blow the whole argument to hell...

Cops cant kill what on earth makes you think you are gonna be able to kill when the need arises?

[kudzu22]

54. Maybe we should talk about disarming the cops

[logosoco]

88. Or maybe we need to realize that everyone is human

and bullets don't always stop bad guys, no matter whose they are.
If people are in a job where arms are required and they make mistakes, how could anyone expect people whose job is NOT one that requires arms to be proficient at using arms?

[riverbendviewgal]

40. public inquiry needed after manhunt over

Explanation why so many shots and why shot as vehicles and occupants not matching description. And the inaccuracy of so many shots. More trading is needed for all of law enforcement agencies. Are the tested often?

[Bennyboy]

44. LA TImes story here...

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/08/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130209

Law enforcement sources told The Times that at least seven officers opened fire. On Friday, the street was pockmarked with bullet holes in cars, trees, garage doors and roofs. Residents said they wanted to know what happened.

[Fresh_Start]

51. I am laughing inside....

oh the hero fantasies of the gun nutters would crash and burn if they would merely engage in critical thought.

[frylock]

55. now imagine some yahoo with a semi-auto carbine and 30 rd mag..

pertectin' their fambly and making swiss cheese out of the walls of their house as well as their neighbor's.

[kestrel91316]

57. It was 46, not 64. And yes, they went all over the neighborhood.

[Ikonoklast]

67. Go to any indoor shooting range and wait for an LEO to show because he needs the practice

in order to re-qualify.

There's your answer.

[barbtries]

68. from reading the local rag

(Daily Breeze) for my old home town, Torrance, CA, i would say yes, all over the neighborhood. it's some kind of miracle that nobody was killed.

[NICO9000]

76. I'm from Torrance too, Barb!

[barbtries]

99. yeah i think i responded to a post by you

that said so the other day.

we're outliers aren't we?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

70. Reading a number of police blogs and forums.

Its seems a lot of police officers are saying this is justified because they thought they were throwing grenades. Wonder if they would feel that way if it was there own family members shot? Guarantee if the people shot back they would be crying about it.

[Bennyboy]

77. WOW< just wow.

Really? Grenades that weren't going off?

[randome]

80. Sounds like the LAPD spokesmen don't have the agility of a White House official...

...when it comes to thinking on their feet.

[Blue Palasky]

74. there's a bloodlust for him

I'm starting to think dorner knows something that we can't yet imagine

[geek tragedy]

84. Combination of poor training, adrenaline, fear, firearms, and a feeling

of infallibility is often a very deadly and poisonous one.

[Fire Walk With Me]

85. When a teen led them on a high-speed chase, they killed him using 90 bullets.

I don't know how many of those reached their mark. Indeed, LAPD need significant review and change ASAP. They protect and serve themselves.

[Bennyboy]

92. In related news, The ENTIRE COUNTRY of Germany's police used 85 bullets

in all of 2011. Half were warning shots.

[Fire Walk With Me]

93. There it is.

[Zoeisright]

90. Thanks for making the point for extremely strict gun control.

I'm sure that wasn't your intention.

[felix_numinous]

91. The shotgun approach

--when you have an endless supply of bullets, is easiest, especially if there are no pesky Constitutional rights to stop you.

[obamanut2012]

94. Cops are notorious bad and unsafe shots

For real.

[Shankapotomus]

101. That's because they excel mostly at beating and kicking. nt

[DrewFlorida]

105. Good point!