General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWould the nation be better off if the south would go away?
Would you personally prefer it if the south would just quietly go away?
LAGC
(5,330 posts)...without them, that's for sure.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)Think about this.
The south for most of its political history was a democratic stronghold. This was because Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and he helped end slavery and save the country. Lincoln and the Republicans were so hated, that during the 1860 Presidential election, Lincoln's name wasn't even placed on the ballot in Alabama. For most of our history, there is nothing on earth meaner or or more blood-thristy than an old traditional southern Democrat. Because of Lincoln, from 1860 on, the Democrats controlled the south. In history, the south is even referred to as the "solid block" because it was so incredibly Democratic.
Then during the 1950s and 60s, a new breed of Democrats emerged. And YES THEY WERE PRIMARILY FROM THE NORTH. They supported civil rights, women's rights, the rights of workers etc. etc. etc.
And what happened?
From the 1960s to the 1980s the South went from a solid Democratic voting block to a southern Republican block! Old time dangerous southern Democrats like Strom Thurmond even changed parties in protest of equality for all! Today the south is solidly Republican. (What a coincidence!) Amazingly when I lived in South Carolina there were some very young people there who didn't even know that Thurmond spent the majority of his life as a Democrat. I had to explain to them that he only changed parties at the very end of his political career to try and stop people like his biracial daughter from having the opportunity for equal rights under the constitution. It is really amazing!
What ever side is in favor of education, science, equal rights, equality and social justice.... the south is on the other side.
Try this. Google a map of the 1860 Presidential election. And then google a map of the 2008 election. Look at the areas of the country where Lincoln and Obama did well (The North). Look where they did poorly (The South). It's almost scary how identical the two maps are for elections held 148 years apart.
Presidential Election 1860 (Lincoln in blue)
Presidential Election 2008 (Obama in red)
I often think I could get into a time machine and go off 500 years into the future. I would then look at a presidential political map of the last election. And with one look at the south, I would know which side is in the best interest of the country and all people. And which side is ignorant, racist, sexist, mean, etc. etc. etc.
Yes.. it is that simple. And for some reason, we are all suppose to dance around the giant pink elephant in the room and ignore how incredibly bad the south, its history, its culture and the political viewpoints of its people have been for America.
By definition, the confederate flag is the most anti-American symbol in the history of this country. To any historically accurate and objective American, (regardless of race) it should be far more offensive than even a Nazi war flag. But of course we can't correctly say that... because we have to protect THE HISTORIC TRUTH ABOUT THE SOUTH.
Response to aaaaaa5a (Reply #13)
Post removed
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)That is why the MidWest is even important than the South. The South cannot do it ALONE.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)But even the midwest isn't close to as bad as the south.
As an example.
Democratic Presidential candidates in places like Alabama and Mississippi won't even get 10% of the white vote. It's that bad.
To put the numbers in proper perspective, in the 2004 Presidential election, Republican Presidential nominee George Bush had a greater percentage of the black vote in a battle ground state like Ohio, than John Kerry had of the white vote in Alabama and Mississippi.
And the problem is only getting worse.
When LBJ (who ironically was from Texas) said that by supporting equality for everyone he was giving the South away to the GOP for a generation he was wrong. He UNDERESTIMATED the hatred. It looks like he handed the South to the GOP for centuries beyond.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)The reddest state is Utah... which is NOT in the South.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)The South doesn't appear as red as it actually is because they have large black populations which vote democratically. Basically all the whites vote republican. All of the black vote democratically. This voting trend gives the South an artificial boost when final numbers are tallied.
By comparison, Utah's final state voting numbers appear worse than those found in the deep south because Utah doesn't have a large black minority population to boost the final totals.
But if we look at the white voting trends among Utah compared to the deep south we get a far different result.
Here are the numbers
In 2008 31% of white voters in Utah voted for Barack Obama. (by the way, that's actually a relatively good number)
Meanwhile here is his % of the white vote in the deep south
Alabama 10%
Arkansas 30%
Georgia 23%
Louisiana 14%
Mississippi 11%
Oklahoma 29%
S. Carolina 26%
Texas 26%
Utah 31%
Now, please take a good look at Utah and compare it to Alabama, Mississippi, and the other George Wallace segregationist states. Its really not even close. In fact if Obama had the white support in any of these southern states states that he had in Utah, he would have won all of the southern states GOING AWAY!
I don't think many people are aware that Obama has a greater percentage of white support in even a place like Utah, than he does in Texas, Georgia or other more traditional deep southern states.
Why does Obama get 31% of the white vote in a rural, heavily mormon state like Utah. But only 10% of the white vote in Alabama? And only 11% of the white vote in Mississippi? Only 14% of the white vote in Louisiana?
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)lovely. just stunning.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)I believe this thread was sent to a jury, who voted 3-3.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)However I do question some of the threads all of the GD hosts have allowed to remain open in comparison to the ones all of you have chosen to lock. Seems, arbitrary at best and at worst it would appear that there is an agenda . . . ymmv.
The SoP is broadly interpreted to say the least.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:27 AM - Edit history (1)
If you got rid of the South, those problems would disappear. After all, those problems you mentioned ONLY exist in the South. It's only in the South that you see creationism in schools. You don't see racism anywhere else. For example, you would NEVER see a bunch of white police savagely beating a black man in California, sparking a massive riot after those officers were acquited.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)Of course there are issues with racism, homophobia, sexism, wage disparity, inequality etc. in all parts of the country. But when it comes to political discourse and voting patterns, to say these elements (as well as many more) don't dominate the south more than other regions of the country is to DENY REALITY.
When the GOP saw the Southern Presidential success of George Wallace in the 1968 Presidential election, they decided to move the party in the direction of the Wallace supporters. GOP operatives called it "The Southern Strategy." Does it work in the North. YES. Does it work in the MidWest. YES. Does it work in California. YES. But there is a reason it is called the "The Southern Strategy" and not the "Boston Strategy" or the "California Strategy."
Arguments like what you stated in your post represent a "red herring." And in my experience they are made by individuals who don't really wish to engage in the blatant reality staring us all in the face with regard to this issue.
Question.
On a per capita basis... do more people who believe Obama is a socialist muslim live in Alabama or Los Angeles County? (See my point?)
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Carter swept EVERY state in the South. Clinton and Obama have both picked up Southern states. We've elected progressive Democrats to Congress.
So yes, you are broad-brushing.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)Democrats are getting killed in the south. What began at the Presidential level has now worked its way down the ladder.
Democratic congressional candidates increasingly do not do well in the south. And progressive candidates do especially poorly. Thanks largely to gerrymandering, the only progressive democrats we are seeing coming out of the south do so from special carved out black districts. You can't find a majority white congressional district that has elected a white progressive to congress anywhere in a traditional deep south state. Go ahead and try to find one.
I have some data that I need to post here later. It shows that among house members who define themselves as members of the tea party, the overwhelming majority of them( 71% if i recall) are from the south.
You are making some statements that simply are not true and not backed up by current data.
No.. Democrats are not doing well in traditional Confederate southern states.
dixiegrrrrl
(60,010 posts)people will not get how you are saying this, right?
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)I thought it would have been obvious, but you are correct. Sometimes I forget how many people are sarcasm-challenged
limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)Thank you.
Another please delete. This South bashing serves no useful purpose.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)truly, -I- am the one being bashed. Please, do read on.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Bless your heart.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)bless Your heart, dahlin
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Which is strange, but at least she knows how to delete. Now let's see if she realizes south bashing is a form of bigotry.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)I think that you already do know that.
Posting a divisive OP that has offended multiple people and then trying to explain it away later in the comments after several dozen people have said that the OP was bashing the South isn't going to cut it.
If you had wanted to discuss the history of the South then you would have done that in the OP and not waited until your comment #78.
Thank you for your time.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)where, I would think it would belong . . . This, however is a question posted concerning current events on DU and in the nation.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)of extreme small mindedness and bigotry.
Response to Tx4obama (Reply #3)
Tuesday Afternoon This message was self-deleted by its author.
JTFrog
(14,274 posts)attack against a Region of the country.
Kali
(55,027 posts)trust me, Tuesday is NOT bashing the south, she is sick and tired of others on DU doing the bashing.
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)The vast majority of Southern whites always vote for the pro-racism party. Before 1964 that was the Democrats, after 1964 it was the Republicans.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Broad-brush attacks on the South seem to be jut fine here on DU
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)Wallace took 5 Southern states in 1968. Nixon took most of the others. Interestingly, Texas went for Humphrey (possibly because of the Johnson connection).
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Region bashing isn't very nice. Thank you.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)I hope you've enjoyed your evening trying to pit the North against the South.
I've found it to be highly disgusting.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I am still waiting for my response. Good luck to you.
The Genealogist
(4,723 posts)Fed up with this region-bashing garbage.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Thank you for your concern.
dimbear
(6,271 posts)There are some very beautiful parts of the South. Environmentally fascinating. Agriculturally rich.
Just needs some educating.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Oh wait.....
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)Obama won North Carolina predominately because North Carolina (and Virginia) have seen lots of new people move into the area. His win represented a demographic change in the state. Not some enlightenment among native southern voters. In fact among native southern voters across the deep south, they are actually trending more Republican, not less so.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Who then immediately moved back after voting for Carter.
Then some of them moved back to vote for Clinton.
That sound right?
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)1976 was the last time the south voted heavily for a Democratic candidate. Of course we had a Georgia governor on the ticket which was a big help . In 1976, the Southern Strategy was still new, having first been used by Nixon on a Presidential level in 1972. Of course with Ronald Reagan in 1980, even though he was from California, he easily blew out Jimmie Carter in the south, based largely on the southern strategy used by Nixon in 72. Since then the GOP has owned the south.
To be fair, despite perhaps the most favorable political climate in modern political history(Watergate), Jimmie Carter still only barely beat Gerald Ford (popular vote) in 1976.. Gerald Ford was closing on Carter so fast that many Presidential historians have argued that had the election been held 1 week later, Ford likely would have won.
Bill Clinton won in North Carolina in 1992 only because it was 3 person race. Ross Perot took a good percentage of the white vote away from Clinton, and as a result the Republicans didn't hit the percentage of white voters they normally win in modern Presidential elections. This is how Clinton won states like North Carolina and Montana. Without Perot, those states (and several more) likely would have been GOP strongholds.
This was also the reason Bill Clinton was elected to the Presidency with only 42% of the vote. In fact Bill Clinton is very interesting in the history of Presidential elections in that he got elected to the Presidency twice, and neither time hit 50% of the vote.
taterguy
(29,582 posts)Bush: 1,134,661
Clinton: 1,114,042
It was the only competitive state he lost.
I love correcting someone's factual mistake first thing in the morning.
THANK YOU!
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)I can't believe I overlooked that! I got NC and GA confused. This is what happens when you are moving to fast. I should probably shut it down after 8pm!
I believe we should all have an obligation to be as factually accurate as possible when we are in the forums. As often as I look at and study Presidential elections, I still can't believe I missed such an apparent and easy mistake.
Again, thank you for help.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)I know that was 30+ years ago, but it shows it can be done.
Also, Clinton and Obama both picked up some Southern states
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)Carter's win in 1976 was nearly 40 years ago. The southern strategy was still new. We know Carter would not have the same success today as he did in 1976, because since that time, we have nominated 2 other southern candidates, (Gore, Clinton). And neither candidate ran well among southern whites.
Plus, in 1980, when Ronald Reagan used the southern strategy, Jimmie Carter was wiped out in the south among southern whites, and Reagan was a hollywood actor from California! I also need to point out, (as I did in my other post) that Carter was running in the most favorable political environment or a democrat since at least 1964, in that he was running against Watergate. (And even then... he still ALMOST LOST!)
Clinton won in the south because there was a third party candidate which lessoned the impact of the white vote. This allowed him to skate by in several states that he would not have won had it been a traditional two party contest. Without Perot on the ballot, a lot of Clintons southern state wins would have been red states in 1992 and 1996.
Obama won NC and VA because of changing demographics. Not changing minds. NC and VA are battle-ground states today because they have seen lots of new residents. The residents moving to the state are more progressive than the traditional population. Among native white southerners, they are actually trending MORE REPUBLICAN. Not less.
I truly would like to believe it is possible in modern Presidential elections to have a Democrat honestly run strongly in the south. But its not likely to happen. What changes we have seen in the south are due to demographic changes and the "old traditional southern voter" literally dying off. Unfortunately, that appears to be the only way the south's terrible political history is going to be reversed.
Good discussion!
SharonAnn
(13,781 posts)They're into home-schooling, creationism, etc.
Joe Shlabotnik
(5,604 posts)Coming from a country where Quebec gets itchy feet every 20 years. no. Idiots abound north and south, but in the end there is strength and common values in unity.
CurtEastPoint
(18,675 posts)Are there GOP assholes by the truckloads and bigots here? Yes. Are there educated liberals? Yes.
Different from elsewhere in the US? No.
Stop with the South bashing.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)Why don't you give up being a bigot and go back to your day job?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)post #50. don't worry, I don't alert and I don't vote. your insinutiations about me are slightly insulting.
TalkingDog
(9,001 posts)If you don't want to have people respond to insulting posts, you have 2 options:
1- Don't Post
2- Or make your intentions clear. Because obviously, I'm not the only one who had an issue with what you wrote.
As for "alerts". I don't really care one way or the other what you choose to do.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)post?
May I suggest that you have chosen a very apt and approriate username.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Go figure.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 29, 2012, 01:18 AM - Edit history (1)
Robb
(39,665 posts)Also I can order a Pimm's Cup without getting a puzzled expression from the bar.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)blogslut
(38,021 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)::sigh::
I truly wish it could, at least, get its own group and get off the main scroll.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)That's a lot of Democratic voters that you want to just "quietly go away".
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)That is only because of the rather large black population of each of the states.
Among white voters, Obama received....
Alabama (10%), Mississippi (11%), Louisiana (14%) South Carolina (22%)
In Alabama, 9 out of 10 white voters voted against the Democratic party. That is absurd. Even in a place like Vermont or Massachusetts, 9/10 voters don't vote Democrat. And this issue isn't just with Obama. If I recall, John Kerry was actually even worse in the South among southern whites. Heck, Al Gore couldn't even carry his own state (TN) in 2000.
Synicus Maximus
(860 posts)aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)I just find it sad that such a large voting block of Americans could be so easily swayed generation after generation based on hatred, fear and their own lack of education and knowledge with regard to the world around them.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Well, that's very different. My apologies.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)My complaint has been that in my view our country has ignored what is going on in the South with regards to voting patterns for far too long.
I think people are afraid to talk about it. Addressing it makes the country feel uncomfortable. But the fact is the base of the GOP is the south. But not just mainstream Republicanism. The majority of the hateful, racist, anti-gay bigotry themes in our political system arise from the south and southern politicians. Most of the anti-science, ignorant and inaccurate themes introduced into our political discourse are southern based.
The Tea Party is ALMOST ENTIRELY a southern movement.
And as I pointed out in another post, the historical voting patterns in this region are so transparent it is not even argued.
Robert E Lee is not an American Hero. He is a person who betrayed his country and led hundreds of thousands of people to their death trying to destroy our great nation.
By historical definition, the Confederate flag is the most anti-American symbol in the history of the country.
Living a southern rural lifestyle does not make you more of an American than living in large coastal northeast city.
Southern states pride themselves on being anti-federal government. Yet the majority of Southern states actually receive more aid from the Federal Government then what they pay in taxes. I honestly don't think citizens of Alabama even know that they are subsidized by the evil, liberal yankees living in Boston, Massachusetts... but they are!
Trust me, I could go on.
Like I have said before, we are all suppose to pretend the giant "pink elephant" in the room isn't there. I simply choose not too. I am not saying anyone should just go away. But I do believe these absurd Southern cultural traditions and misguided, ridiculous Southern history lessons can't be stopped.... until people are at least willing to discuss facts. Instead of ignoring them.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)MFrohike
(1,980 posts)Here's a suggestion: when you non-southerners actually integrate your neighborhoods, finally get rid of your ghettos, stop electing winners like Pete Wilson (remember him?) and Peter King, stop exploiting low-wage immigrant labor (especially nannies, construction, and lawn care), take hold of the corporations incorporated in YOUR states, and work on the massive environmental disasters in your backyards, then you get to criticize us.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)If the rest of the Nation (Northeast, West Coast in-particular) had the same voting patterns as southern whites, this country would be in a much worse position.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)I must have missed the part where all those things I mentioned had happened. Oh, I get it. It's cool if you berate us for our problems, but if we deign to point out not all is well in your parts, we're not telling the truth. Good to know.
Yeah, I don't know that the rest of the country is much different. If that were true, reliably blue states wouldn't be slashing education and health care funding due to short-sighted fiscal policies, the homeless in those areas would never be marginalized or mistreated, massive foreclosures would not be swamping their housing markets, there wouldn't be massive giveaways to attract companies as part of the nationwide race to the bottom, there would be no gang problems, and those areas wouldn't be gigantic markets for illegal drugs. I guess none of that is a problem, though, right?
You can talk about us all day long, but our problems are out in the open. We were forced to deal with them and we are. Can you honestly say the same?
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Only ignorant rubes in the south would try to introduce creationism into public schools. You'll never see that in states like Indiana or Minnesota.
Oh yeah...
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)Or Pennsylvania!
Odin2005
(53,521 posts)Many Minnesota Republicans are to the LEFT of many southern "Democrats". My own state rep, Morrie Lanning, is one of them. Around here he is considered a moderate conservative. Down south he would be called an evil commie because he opposed Pawlenty's cuts to the HHS budget.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)I live in a red state. I am not hear to defend blue states. I am simply pointing out FACT with regard to voting patterns and attempting to explain why such factual voting patterns are occurring. This is not a claim that a utopian society exists outside of the deep south.
I think to some degree, we have several posters here with a chip on their shoulder and don't want to address the issue head on.
Please anser this specific question?
In 2008, which was a strong Democratic year, in wake of all that was happening, how is it even mathmatically possible for the Democratic Presidential candidate to only receive 10% of the white vote in Alabama?
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)The Democratic Party barely represents the white working class. Yes, I do mean barely. The viewpoint of the national party tends to be that whatever is good for professionals is good for the country at large. That's why Democrats have issues in the deep south and the midwest. By forsaking an older lunch-pail liberalism, the party has given racism space to breathe.
You know, it was inevitable that the south would be lost for a time after the Civil and Voting Rights Acts. It wasn't inevitable that it would be as long as it has. The south has always been winnable when you talk about winnable issues. Harping on evil southerners and racism would probably go over a lot better if it was tied to improved work conditions and pay rather than free trade and a revolving door between Wall Street and the White House.
By the way, the south isn't monolithic. There are huge differences between a state like North Carolina and a state like Alabama.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)I actually agree with almost everything you wrote.
My only objection is... does the GOP represent the working class?
Remember even issues like the NAFTA and GATT free trade agreements which were done under Clinton, required the democratic president to break with his left flank and join Republicans. The Republican party has destroyed the working class. And yes, the democrats have been right there with them, except for occasionally the far left, which is the faction of the party that is most poisonous to the south.
Here is what I don't understand. If you are a white male married with one young child working full time at a Walmart in Biloxi Mississippi, why would you be opposed to the affordable care act? Purely by fact alone, this single example should represent someone MOST likely to support Obama-care. But instead the opposite is true.
There's a book called "What's the Matter With Kansas" that tries to explain this increasing problem, where people literally vote against their own interest. Or people use peripheral issues like gay rights, NRA, religion, etc. to determine voting patterns while the more important economic issues are left on the roadside.
We saw this in George Bush's 1988 campaign which was partially built around the notion "Don't burn the flag!" What? What does that have to do with anything. But it played well in rural America. It polled well in the south.
By they way, although the theme of this thread and discussion is about the south, this is not just a southern based issue. I see this same demographic group in my state, and when I ask about Obama care (as just an example) the response is very similar to what I am likely to find in Alabama or Georgia.
By the way, you are right about the south not being monolithic. I wrote about this in another thread about how we define the Deep south.
Again good post. I agree with a lot of your points. Good discussion.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)Last edited Mon Jan 30, 2012, 03:18 AM - Edit history (2)
The GOP doesn't represent any economic interest except for the very wealthy and professionals somewhat. The trouble is that, with some exceptions, the Democratic Party really isn't very different except that it's more professional oriented. I suspect the major issue with the Democratic Party is the source of funds. If you don't toe the predominant neoliberal line, it gets hard to get funded.
Racism, xenophobia, and general extremism rise in direct proportion to economic instability (instability is not the word I want, but I'm blanking on the correct word). People are more willing to buy into these ideals when they don't feel that they're on firm ground. Racism is tried and true way of assigning false blame while hiding the real culprits. I think of that end speech of "The American President" where Michael Douglas talks about taking a group of middle class voters and telling them that some scapegoat is responsible for their problems. Sorkin really nailed that one perfectly.
We're cool. I don't like seeing the south singled out for national problems because I think it's a cop-out. All too often it's been used as a means of showing one's liberal credentials, by south bashing, while conveniently ignoring the same problems outside the south. I don't mind if people address these issues on a national scale, but scapegoating will never be productive if we really want to address the actual problems.
Read economic instability as economic insecurity. Wow, it took a long while for that word to finally come to me.
boppers
(16,588 posts)I do.
I've been through 47 states. (Alaska, Maine, and Hawaii, I'll visit soon!)
You know what the north calls it when a gay, transvestite, mayor takes a black man, out on a date, in Oregon?
We call it Friday, or "date night".
Yes, the south is forced to confront their past.
As is the north.
The north isn't as defensive about it.
Yes, racism exists everywhere. Homophobia exists everywhere. Sexism exists everywhere.
The south is defensive about it. The south is haunted by it. The south is bothered by "regionalism".
It's kind of like the difference between accusing two men of racism and getting the following answers:
1. I'm not a racist, I have black friends!
2. I try to fight my racist cultural history, and learn from my friends!
3. Race doesn't matter to me!
The first is a racist. The second also is, but is aware of it. The third is also a racist.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)And I can tell you when she takes her partner out on Friday night it is called 'date night'.
Btw, Houston Texas is in the DEEP South.
Yes, racism exists everywhere. homophobia exists everywhere. and sexism exists everywhere - BUT also acceptance and understanding and LOVE also exists everywhere too
In the 2011 election, Parker won a second term as Houston's Mayor, by defeating Fernando Herrera, Jack O'Connor, Dave Wilson, Kevin Simms, and Amanda Ulman
Parker is Houston's second female mayor, and the first elected openly gay mayor of a major U.S. city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annise_Parker
boppers
(16,588 posts)It's soooo cute, in that childlike way of your kid "putting on a play". Portland, Oregon had an openly gay Mayor in 2009, and he rose up like Parker, been elected since 2005.
Aside from that:
"acceptance and understanding and LOVE also exists everywhere too" It's a great message, and it matters. A lot. It's HELLA HARD for GLBTQ folks to find support in the south, but if you can find them before you kill yourself, the south has some of the best GTBTQ networks, but I think this is because the south is so harsh.
It's a bit like claiming the south is a great place for black people, because they've built up so many systems to deal with the hatred, violence, cruelty and oppression, of the south.
It's a bit like claiming you have the best underground railroad.
For GLBTQ.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)as intolerant as some folks might think that it is.
boppers
(16,588 posts)#195
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)You left out the rest of the quote: " ... the first elected openly gay mayor of a major U.S. city.
Doesn't mean that we were the 'first' city.
And what gripe do you have with that?
I did not post my previous comment to brag that we were the first, I posted just to say that down here in the South we are not as intolerant as most folks think we are.
Btw, Houston is the the fourth-largest city in the United States - I can't help that
The only reason we get defensive is because we get condescended to about our past with no recognition of your own. Where have most of the race riots in American history occurred? I'll give you a hint: it's not the south. Where was the worst rioting over busing? Again, it wasn't the south. Didn't California just pass a big, old amendment to ban gay marriage? Why, yes, I believe they did! Doesn't liberal Oregon ban same-sex marriage? Why yes it does! Sure, they have the separate-but-equal version called civil unions, but, as we're always reminded, separate but equal is unequal.
Fix your own backyard, then feel free to lecture us. When your environment is clean, when your people aren't exploited, when bigotry isn't common place, when your ghettos are gone, and everything is just utopia, feel free to lecture us.
You can bash us all day long, but you won't change shit in this country without us. You make not like that, but reality doesn't care what you like.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Same with bus riots.
The south has less of those.
"Fix your own backyard, then feel free to lecture us. When your environment is clean, when your people aren't exploited, when bigotry isn't common place, when your ghettos are gone, and everything is just utopia, feel free to lecture us. "
Feel free to visit.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)Cities may have been the localized site, but the region sure wasn't the south. Nice dodge. I appreciate the effort, but the fact remains that race riots and busing riots were all about how those good, nonsouthern upstanding citizens felt about the black people in their midst. One can pretend that it's all sweetness and light outside the south, but a long, long history of rioting and oppression indicates otherwise.
I've visited. Color me less than impressed when it comes to your version of societal harmony.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)where did I say that?
I am one of them.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Or maybe just the 20th century?
cordelia
(2,174 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002233447
Arkansas Democrat's cat killed, painted with "liberal" - meets defination of a "Hate Crime"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12516105
Oklahoma Republican seeks to ban use of aborted fetuses in food products
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12516045
Update: Copy of statement and letter re Georgia election ballot challenge filed against Pres Obama
http://www.democraticunderground.com/12515342
Sounds fairly un-American & pre-20th century to me...
BrentWil
(2,384 posts)Your post isn't about a debate. It is about calling out a whole region and "telling them to go away."
Kali
(55,027 posts)she is asking YOU and the rest of this site the question, not saying it should happen. It is heartening that many are at least misreading it in a good way (saying not to call out the whole region) but she is NOT saying this is what should happen, she is asking who on DU thinks it should.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I didn't tell anyone to do anything. I asked a question, actually 2 questions.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)your quotes are not warranted and can NOT be attributed to me for -I- never said such a thing. NEVER!
I worry about your reading comprehension skills, really -I-do.
and on that You may quote me.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)There, I said it. Hiding your post is not the same as standing up to you and speaking my truth.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Generic Brad
(14,276 posts)I personally prefer the United States to include all of us.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)handmade34
(22,759 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)very sad
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)But kinda surprised this is still open.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)Crazy!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)talk about southern history belongs in GD?! really?!
talk of being related to Civil war soldiers is relevant to GD?! really?! why? how?
How are these topics relevant to GD's SoP?
A Civil War Group could be started for those interested. There is a Southern Democrat group available for those interested.
I would contend that my question is more relevant to GD because I am asking for Current Analysis of DUers. I don't have a poll feature available or this would have been a chance for anonymus voting and if those who so chose wanted to comment, they could have so done.
well, the door was opened, all I did was walk through it. Alerting does no good. You know this. I told you about this days ago.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)I'm more southern than you know. Trust me.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)crazy like a fox
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)in before the self delete
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Electric Monk
(13,869 posts)or else an admin locking it. I guess we'll see.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)is free speech. Maybe it is his observation not yours or mine. I happen to love where I live. I have lived across the united states. I see good and bad in every region. I don't like the piling on. I know how it feels.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)if I don't see all your comments are right. There are many good people in the south just like across the states. But it is your opinion and you should have a right to express it. I just can't stand when I see the piling on.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)and yes, you are correct. The piling on started immediately, if not sooner.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)pretty well for yourself and you sure don't need me. I just hate piling on. When people start wanting to send you to the jury or say how long your comments are going to last because you don't go with the flow then that to me isn't free speech. Even if I don't agree with you.
PassingFair
(22,434 posts)But this is PURE FLAME BAIT, and I voted to HIDE this thread.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)PassingFair
(22,434 posts)cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)sakabatou
(42,198 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)supernova
(39,345 posts)There is no yin without yang
No white without black, so to speak.
We're as much a part of you as you are of us. And you just can't stand that.
Besides, if The South went away tomorrow, who would you have to feel superior to?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I do not alert and I do not sit jury however your post is slightly insulting. Please see my post #50 in this thread. Thanks.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Who feels inferior?
Taverner
(55,476 posts)adding to that list:
Mark Twain, William Faulkner, Janis Joplin, Allman Brothers, Booker T and the MGs, Delaney and Bonnie, Bobbie Gentry, Larry McMurtry, Willie Nelson, Molly Ivins, Ann Richards... and I've just scratched the surface
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)Where do YOU draw the line between north and south? Do you even have a fucking clue?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)perhaps you need to spend more time with those 4 y/o.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)If I had a question I needed to ask of those kids... I'd ask "where would you draw the line between North and South in the context of who is racist, dumb, unlearned, or otherwise undesirable... and why would you draw it there?
That's a question you REFUSE to answer, and I don't think you could answer it if you tried.
Personally, I don't think you could answer my question on a BET.
Los Angeles is further south than a HUNDRED cities you'd identify as places in "TEH SOUTH" you'd like to quietly go away...
The next time you ask a stupid question, prepare yourself for stupid answers...
boppers
(16,588 posts)Geographic colloquialisms don't follow maps.
They follow the custom of their origin.
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)In my opinion ...
First off I want to say that I DO know that this is NOT correct (or at least what others might think),
but when I, a Texan, think of what the states are 'in the South' the states that come to mind are Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia.
Yes, I know that that is not right and not inclusive of all the states that 'others' say are in the 'south'.
But living down here in Texas for 35+ years (Dallas and Houston) those are the only states that 'seem' southern to me, and maybe because I am a 'foodie' and many 'southern food recipes' come from the five states mentioned above.
Oklahoma and Arkansas are states, to me, that are just UP THERE - I've spent a little bit of time in Oklahoma and Arkansas and the culture there didn't seem as southern to me as our culture here in Texas. Perhaps others have found it differently then I have but that is my 'impression'.
Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina are states that are 'way over there' near the east coast and I must admit I don't know much about them and never thought about them as being 'southern'.
Florida is a mixture of many cultures and I've never associated it with 'southern culture' such as saying "yes ma'am, no sir", peach cobbler, cowboy boots, or southern accents (perhaps because I've never been to Florida) and when I think of Florida I think of NASA, fun beaches, and college springs breaks like the ones I saw in old Elvis movies
And as far as Southern California goes well that is 'just south of northern California' right? Just like southern Illinois is in the south of the state but not really southern.
Bottom line is that all 50 states comprise what we call 'The UNITED States of America' and we should be UNITED in our thinking and our actions towards each other.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Please note my reply to seabeyond and try to keep up.
As you appear to have trouble keeping up, please note posts #52 and #87 in this thread and also make yourself aware of the time stamps.
You are truly insulting and I hope the Admin is taking note of your replies to me.
Swede
(33,303 posts)She us pointing out regional bigotry,many have not gotten it.
backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Kali
(55,027 posts)think it really helps solve anything?
jzola
(158 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)hope you find it to your liking . . . .
EFerrari
(163,986 posts)Their educators, social justice activists and scientists? Do they get Jimmy Carter, Rosa Parks, Shelby Foote and William Faulkner?
What about, not just no but hell, no?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)EFerrari
(163,986 posts)At a minimum I want to negotiate for merh and Fly By Night.
Crabby Appleton
(5,231 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Kali
(55,027 posts)and how many are basically saying the whole idea of ditching the region is untenable, now don't you see what I was talking about when I said sometimes people are overly sensitive to certain topics? I know from out conversations you in no way are saying this is something that should happen. So I have a little advantage over how some are jumping to the conclusion that you are advocating such a thing. But the fact that they are saying it would be wrong and are "attacking" you for suggesting it should count for something, eh?
now don't delete, dammit
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)you get me. You really get me
ask a question and look what happens on DU
proud southern pro2a democrat with 7 different bloodlines flowing through my veins including cherokee, creek, and african....checking in
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)And where is the line drawn?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I also think that southern history threads and being related to civil war soldiers are not topics for GD but, that is just me.
You interpreted the question any way you see fit. That is what a good question does, right?
makes people think.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)asked ad infinitum here before?
I don't think it's a question rooted in reality, and not well reasoned. Therefore, I see it as a bash.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)where any 3 random DUers disagreed with you. sorry.
cherokeeprogressive
(24,853 posts)I notice that you didn't bother to answer either of my questions...
Telling.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)and I don't stay where I am not wanted. do you?
ad inifitum? apparently not, as witness this thread.
rooted in reality? to whose reality would you be referring?
I don't alert and I don't sit on juries but, I find your reply to be somewhat insulting. Good night, kind sir.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)red states? bigotry? religion?
there is quite a bit in parts of calif.... gut those out
how are we doing this?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Odin2005
(53,521 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)The 160's would break from the 130's, and yay, we'd wind up with a system where people would spend all their time arguing about the validity of a test, the cultural bias of a test, etc.
I've long been in favor of the idea that only people who can pass a citizenship test should vote, no IQ issue, no "have you been here long enough" issue. It's not a g test, it's a knowledge test... but I also realize it's highly specific to certain historical ethnicity.
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)but I have lived a lot of places and it is my least favorite. Too hot, too many mosquitoes, bad air quality, too much fake religion and too conservative.
I am going to Denver for a month and when my kids graduate we are gone.
Texasgal
(17,049 posts)in Central Texas. Our Air quality is great! We have some religious people and we have some conservatives... just like anywhere else. Does Denver not have any religious people or conservatives?
I will admit to it being hot in the summer, and maybe a few mosquitos. Over all I'd never live anywhere else.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Also, do you get snow?
How many breweries do you have?
-Portland.
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)but is that the norm? If you go to the PIRC site(I think that is what it is) that measures air quality in the south overall is very bad. It is probably has to do with the humidity holding it in. As far as Denver every area has religious conservatives but they tend to be in Colorado springs. I've lived in both Atlanta and Denver and Atlanta is just really boring.
Initech
(100,129 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)flames of hatred for profit and really don't give a damn.
Initech
(100,129 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)this country. In my book they are extremists and undermine the US. I guess money cures all guilt.
Initech
(100,129 posts)RBInMaine
(13,570 posts)to be region bashing here. This is a nasty post. It is fine to disagree with people politically, but to ask that they "just go away" is very uncool. I have spent considerable time in the south and cherish the southern "brothers" I have had in life, and this from a through and through New England Yankee.
Kali
(55,027 posts)there have been a number of south bashing threads of late and the OP is merely illustrating something about this subject on DU, she is NOT advocating what you think.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)you are a good friend mon cheri
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)Because problems like racism, religious extremism, and overall rethug idiocy do not exist outside of the South. If it weren't for the South, this country would be a fucking utopia.
Do I really need to add the
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)msongs
(67,478 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Hugabear
(10,340 posts)We understand we have a lot of work to do. But anti-South broad brushing ignores the fact that our problems exist everywhere - not just the South. Posting these sentiments on DU does nothing except alienate DUers who happen to live in the South.
Because the question is essentially 'should the south leave the union?'
It seems to me that the people saying 'no' (or if you prefer, 'the protect the south crowd') are the ones with history on their side.
pinto
(106,886 posts)Along with an honorable mention in the two wrongs don't make a right category for pointless, counterproductive posts.
Well done. Thanks for your contribution to constructive discourse here on DU. He said, sarcastically...
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Kali
(55,027 posts)I can see possibly a bit flame-baity, but it is a topic that has relevance and I don't see sarcasm there at all.
People here are constantly talking about things they find offensive or negative, why is pointing out the region bias and getting people to think about their prejudices pointless?
JI7
(89,283 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)to ever see it again, but there are a lot of good people there.
I have an IQ of 150 and a masters degree and I've had non Southerners look down their noses at me as if I were some sort of illiterate hick the minute I open my mouth.
The racism, provincialism, ignorance, and petty venality so often attributed to the south is alive and well in this country from Portland to LA. The south has had to take the blame for a lot of shit that is just as prevalent everywhere else in this country and I get a little tired of having to wade around in it out here on the "left coast".
I don't understand how liberals can trumpet their weepy concern for the poor and downtrodden and almost in the same breath snort their bigoted derision at some of the poorest people in the country. And the irony is that if and when this country really goes broke the upscale urbanites who have looked down their noses at the south won't have a clue what to do when the real fight starts and they will discover that there is no more fierce and loyal friend to have in a foxhole than a Scotch-Irish redneck. But then it will be too late.
The south is populated by United States citizens. They could, and should, be our political allies but for the arrogance of liberals who should know better if their own self image is to be believed. As far as I'm concerned anyone who harbors such regional bigotry can fold it in three corners and shove it so far up their ass their hat won't fit.
Besides, where the hell else are we gonna get good barbeque?
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)with BBQ as the sole justification.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)You are obviously a person of exceptional refinement and good taste.
Damn I'm hungry.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)These fine folks make an honest attempt, but when you tell them "Memphis Rub" they give you deer in the headlights.
Forget a dollop of real BBQ sauce (Mustard based) from Bonos (which I have ordered shipped and need to do again).
Crimeny. Now I'M hungry.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)rrneck
(17,671 posts)Somebody's gotta show 'em what a proper ass whippin' looks like.
boppers
(16,588 posts)Lovely. Unmasking is fun.
"that there is no more fierce and loyal friend to have in a foxhole than a Scotch-Irish redneck"
I'll keep that in mind. Should I use you as a radiation shield, or blast shield?
"Besides, where the hell else are we gonna get good barbeque?"
Where it started.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbecue
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Especially when I'm unmasking bigots and political myopics.
I don't care where barbeque started, it's done right in the south.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)definitely going to fail as a nation. I know some people in the south that are very left wing, and I know others 'not' in the south that are very RW. And on both coasts I know some pretty RW people in areas considered liberal ... so, it's not easy to sum up a geographical area as "all" one way or another IMO.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)RKP5637
(67,112 posts)aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)I actually have seen a lot of real good data that backs that up.
A lot of times our political leanings are divided into an urban vs rural arraignment. And the more urban you are (black or white) the more likely you are to be a Democrat. And the reverse is true for rural voters and Republicans. And because even today, the South is more rural than the northeast... this DOES explain some the voting disparities between the regions.
I was reviewing a race in Massachusetts one time, and even in that state, you can see the rural/urban divide. Boston is very Democratic. The Suburbs break 60/40. And after that, every mile you trek away from the city gets you a deeper and deeper red.
PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/2011_fotw661.html
I guess overall the northeast is more densely populated than the south. However most of the southern states seem to fall around the national average for population density, and some are above that. Iow, I wouldn't say they are more 'rural' as a region, though there may be pockets of rural areas (as is true anywhere).
While the region's population density may have been much lower than average at one time, that doesn't appear to be the case now. -Btw, I chose this map since it's got the most recent data of all the links I checked. As noted, this is just an FYI not directed at anyone in particular. (I'm a bit of a data nerd)
That doesn't mean I disagree w/you though about rural voters. They, in general do seem to be more conservative voters. Case in point- check out Maine. As of the 2010 election, they became a 'red' state- R state house, state senate, R constitutional officers, Teabag governor and 2 R US senators.
As far as the OP- I agree that it is sad to see the region bashing going on. We really do need to be working togethor and this whole N v. S stuff is not helpful to that end imho. A better approach would be to celebrate and expand upon the things that unite us as opposed to divisive stuff. Again just my humble opinion fwiw.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)I learned something here. The South actually is not quite as rural as I would have initially thought. I would only add that basic population density state-wide is not the only indicator. Its almost a city vs country dispute.
For instance Minnesota has a population density less than what you would find in Alabama. Surprisingly it is about on par with Mississippi in terms of population. However, Minnesota has Minneapolis. This is a major city. Mississippi does not have a major city close to this size. Numbers indicate that the more urban an area, the more likely they are to vote Democratically.
Here is the breakdown on vote based on population demographic area in Presidential elections 2000-2008.
Presidential vote percentage by population density 2000-2008
2000-2004-2008
Population over 500,000
Democrat 71 -60-70%
Republican 26 -39-28%
Population 50,000 to 500,000
Democrat 57-49-59%
Republican 40-49-39%
Suburbs
Democrat 47-47-50%
Republican 49-52-48%
Population 10,000 to 50,000
Democrat 38-48-45%
Republican 59-50-53%
Rural areas
Democrat 37-39-45%
Republican 59-59-53%
We can see that as populations get more rural, they trend more Republican. So its actually more than just overall population density. For instance a state with a very large city (population over 500,000) surrounded by very rural areas, is actually more likely to trend Democratic than a state with no major city but many small towns with populations of 50,000 residents.
This actually makes sense. It is a fact that people who live in more urban areas are better educated, know people of different religious and ethnic backgrounds and are less likely to be religious compared to their rural counterparts.
And by the way, the above facts aren't just a southern issue. These numbers are largely just as true in a state like Pennsylvania as it is in Alabama. There is a reason why political pundits call PA the "T" state. It is Pittsburgh in the East. Philadelphia in the west. And Alabama in the middle. The voting patterns within the state of PA is a perfect example of the rural vs urban debate. And PA is not a southern state.
Good discussion. I understand that this thread is only here based on a 3-3 jury vote. But I hope critics can see that there is valuable information here. If they will only take the time to read what has been posted.
phylny
(8,393 posts)like living in the US.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)there are plenty from which to choose.
Iggo
(47,586 posts)(That was easy).
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)read the whole thread
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Ruby the Liberal
(26,219 posts)Excellent. Thanks for clarifying.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)highly insulting if I was one of those, which I am not. Good night, kind sir.
MFrohike
(1,980 posts)But we'll be taking the New Deal, Fair Deal, that win in WW2, the Civil Rights Act, the Voting Rights act, the Great Society, the War on Poverty, and any hope you ever have of Democratic presidents getting elected in the future with us. Hope that works out well for you.
Seriously, do people even think for 5 seconds before posting this type of stuff?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)MFrohike
(1,980 posts)A little humility is a good thing. Oh well, that post works whoever is actually serious about this.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)BeHereNow
(17,162 posts)Ever listen to the calls from the south on C-Span's Washington Journal in the morning?
Racist Inbreds are the majority of the callers from the south.
Tune in and tell me I'm wrong.
BHN
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)southern racist inbreds know how to dial a phone and northern racist inbreds have yet to learn that accomplishment . . .
just askin.
Kali
(55,027 posts)xfundy
(5,105 posts)Hey, I love your store, but i don't have any money. Could you get some of those many, many racist northern inbreds to make a "Hot inbred sex" video and send me the "tithes?"
Thanks so much, and have a blesssed day!
boppers
(16,588 posts)It's a "crafting" thing.
flvegan
(64,423 posts)Please be specfic.
Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)
Capn Sunshine This message was self-deleted by its author.
gopiscrap
(23,766 posts)when SC seceeded and the rest followed he should have just said don't let the door hit you on the ass on your way out!!!
rrneck
(17,671 posts)xfundy
(5,105 posts)Wow, hepp me jeebus! Hepp me! Hepp me!
Lately I've been seeing all kinds of attacks on other posters, just nit-picky stuff like the dog-piling that's going on here. The OP wondered whether, basically, the South should have been given their fondest wish during the Civil War. Some of the responses have been stated as if the OP actually had some power to make it happen. To me, this is nuts.
I, myself, got a post deleted, when I was pointing out what seemed to me to be an obvious troll, trying to bait others into saying something he or she could potentially use to discredit us "libruls." "Calling someone a conservative is the WORST kind of attack!" one of the jurors said. OK, I'm fine with that, and will file it away for later reference.
Huh?
I grew up in the South, and heard in church how people of color were bad and evil cause they ain't like "us." The English rock bands were Satan's minions, spreading communism, socialism, devil-worship, and whatever else the preacher wanted to use to defame them, as he had, literally, a bully pulpit.
As I advanced in my life, I finally realized my dream of getting the fuck out of the South and yes, getting away from the bigotry and plain stupidity that plague it. I've lived in several states on both east and west coasts, and due to family circumstances out of my control, I am back in the South until I can once again muster up the (whatever) to leave again to a place where stating my beliefs won't create a deafening silence.
I'm also queer as a football bat, yet not "obvious" to all but the most self-hating closet queen Christer; the gaydar is real, and many self-hating "Christians" use it themselves, either for a roll in the hay, or, if rebuffed, to "out" others in an attempt to "punish" them.
So why the crisis reaction to the idea that the South has, uh, a "problem" in the idiocy/redneck/empathy problem?
First (if I haven't been jurified yet for whatever or whoever this statement of fact may have pissed off), there is indeed a big problem here. The preachers, politicians, anti-unionists and other vultures have fostered "class" warfare and the bullshit of "racial" differences here for many years. Going to church is a big part of southern culture; I have many wonderful memories related to church activities in my youth. What I didn't realize was that I was being indoctrinated, and that when I asked questions or dared to point out the obvious absurdities, I was labelled "strange," which is fine with me; I'd hate to be a cookie-cutter version of everyone else. Wouldn't you?
I doubt no one has a problem with the geography or the rich, black earth of the south, which used to produce an abundance of sugar cane, rice, corn, cotton, etc.
But I can't emphasize enough the hatred, bigotry and outright stupidity I've been subjected to, being back in the South when I dare to speak my mind. Mainly, I'm referring to my own ignorant immediate and extended family, all convinced they're better than any person of color, other nationality, other belief system, no matter how humane or beneficient.
And Jesus was white, just look at the picture in the Bible.
So, while I desperately hope the South can be educated, there are so many built-in obstacles I just don't know, but I do hold out hope.
I imagine I'd be similarly exercised about my home region, whether I grew up in the North or the Midwest. (But not the west coast. Just being honest.)
Now, back to the OP: should the South go away, LIKE THEY WANTED TO? They benefitted immeasurably from staying in the union, even now, they take much more federal money from blue states than they could ever hope to contribute. But, what SHOULD go away is the SOUTHERN STRATEGY, and the utterly undeserved "special rights" southerners expect even as they want to take rights from others.
Have a blessed day!
Nay
(12,051 posts)in Florida, which is only Southern in name, except for the north part, central FL, and the panhandle (those areas were the real South). I've lived in southern states (TN, VA, AL, GA) for most of my life due to family and job pressures, but I felt free and happy only in non-southern states (MT, CO, WA) and in Canada. It's hard to explain to folks who haven't experienced it exactly how the religious, social and racial indoctrination blankets your life if you grow up in the South. I missed a lot of it only because my parents were not Southern, and they were careful to correct some of the godawful nonsense I heard in school, from 'friends,' etc.
The ignorance is the worst problem, IMO. The number of southerners who have not ever been outside their home state shocked me. (Just my anecdotal observation.) Churches are little more than indoctrination centers, and they make sure that they are literally the only social outlet for millions of people. I also heard plenty about how black people were stupid, smelly, dirty (dark skin automatically signaled 'dirt' to an unholy number of people, apparently because of the fairy tale/Bible/historical linking of black or dark with 'bad' and white or light with 'good'). All in all, large numbers of southerners seem wedded to such primitive associations, and are moved by them. That's why the crafty preachers and self-serving politicians do so well here -- the audience is totally primed for them. Of course, all humans are subject to the same sort of emotional manipulation, but the degree of civilization expressed by a society is directly related to the ability of the people in that society to understand and moderate their own emotional responses with their intellects rather than let their emotions always run their actions. IMO, a more civilized society recognizes that humans can be manipulated in ugly ways, and rather than set up structures that glorify and exploit that trait, it tries its hardest to set up structures that moderate that trait - like science-based schooling, public debunking, keeping religion out of govt, etc.
Another factor that no one has mentioned is the Scotch/Irish factor, so well-explained by a couple of southerners, Jim Webb of VA and Joe Bageant of VA. It's way too much to put in a post, but googling either of these guys will give you plenty of info.
It would be an interesting experiment to separate the regions and fast-forward 100 years, but it ain't gonna happen unless we have a total meltdown of some sort, which we may just be heading for. I'm old enough to be pretty sanguine about the human race's chances -- it may or may not do well, and IMO we are just as likely to degenerate into nastiness and brutality as we are to advance to the stars -- and my only regret is that I didn't move to Canada when I had the chance.
Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)
Post removed
Major Hogwash
(17,656 posts). . they will push the entire South to the far right extreme fringe, and in effect, split this country right in two!!
I don't know what it is going to take to ensure fair and equitable access to voting booths this fall to make sure that everyone who wants to vote has the opportunity to vote, but there are so many states enacting more restrictive voting laws, that it isn't even funny.
All of a sudden.
Right out of the blue.
Ever since Obama became President.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)And this hasn't been hidden?
Well, at least you've put your bigotry and hatred on display for all to see.
Tennessee Gal
(6,160 posts)Max Cleland, Bill Clinton, Sam Nunn, etc.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Must "the north" own its history as well?
After defeating The South, the North turned its armies against the Native Americans in a brutal 30 year war of genocide and ethnic cleansing. The North WON that one too.
Personally, I didn't participate or endorse either one,
so I don't feel compelled to "own" anything.
The War between the States is another example where the 1% managed to inflict incredible amounts of pain, suffering, and loss on the 99% whom had absolutely NOTHING to do with it.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Lived in Florida for most of my life. There are some great people here. If you know where to go it is also a beautiful and friendly place to visit.
I know you are aware of this and take your op for what it is.
I just wish you northerners would keep your cold weather from invading my space.
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)It is from a geographic standpoint. But it isn't from a cultural standpoint.
The northern panhandle is closely tied to the traditional south. However Miami is closer to New York than Biloxi.
Florida is not the state people in this tread are talking about. (And I strongly believe you know that!
Rex
(65,616 posts)boppers
(16,588 posts)barbtries
(28,817 posts)i'm an american, and i live here.
T S Justly
(884 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)mmonk
(52,589 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)
Obamanaut This message was self-deleted by its author.
boppers
(16,588 posts)As the north moved south, it became more rational.
mmonk
(52,589 posts)the first Republican legislature since reconstruction.
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)and undemocratic electoral system. If we had the popular vote for the presidency then the campaigns and the governing would be national instead of regional.
Vinca
(50,323 posts)maybe it's time we consider officially splitting this country into 2. Let the crazies have their own land, Little Somalia, complete with people dying in the streets from hunger and lack of health care, oil in their water and gun deaths at astronomical levels. Over in Sane-istan, we'll be building a fence to keep them out and enjoying the absolute peacefulness of having them gone.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)You might consider returning it for a refund . . . just a suggestion, kind person.
redqueen
(115,106 posts)I hope your intent was to provide an opening for everyone who likes to spout off idiotic crap about the south and how much they personally know that the south is inferior, cause they've been to lots of states so they just know, or their favorite stats tell them its just a fact, or whatever.
Hope you're happy with the results.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I love you, too.
redqueen
(115,106 posts)I was ticked because it seemed you gave all these people a platform to spew their bile.
But I guess now at least I have a better idea of how many DUers apparently find this acceptable.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)a sad commentary but, there you have it
I am trying to figure out how to solve the probelm and, like with misogny, in order to solve it you have to talk about it, I guess.
Thanks
Little Star
(17,055 posts)Most of my extended family hails from the south. I head south every chance I get. I hope to retire in the south.
There are many things I don't like about the NE and can't wait to get the heck out of here.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)leeroysphitz
(10,462 posts)nogood use for the region. Many intentionally ignorant people taking a pathological pride in being backward.
JMO flame away.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)in such a judicious and forth right manner. Trust me, your comments have been taken under advisement.
Tennessee Gal
(6,160 posts)We southern liberals apparently need to just stop fighting and give up.
Sounds a lot like a certain someone who said that Pelosi, Reid, Obama, etc. should leave the country.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)in this thread. -I- want to know the anwsers to these questions because I do not stay where I am not wanted. Do you?
Tennessee Gal
(6,160 posts)I have been hanging out here for a long time. Not so much lately, but quite a bit during the W years. I was consumed by the Bush v. Gore debacle and found a bit of peace here. In the years following that outrage I also spent a lot of time researching and writing. I briefly wrote articles for Buzzflash.com.
I know my stuff. I know that my beliefs are strong and every once in a while I manage to make a few valid points with conservatives in my area. There are some who can be reasoned with. The best approach is through logical reasonable questions. Then there are those who are so radical there is no point in wasting time or energy. Their radical positions are usually based on abortion or guns and they vote against their own economic interests because of those two issues.
Circumstances have changed in the American political world and that needs to be taken into consideration. There is far more right wing propaganda spreading through the media -- Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, etc. Voters are too gullible and ill informed, much more than in the past. They believe the lies they are told. It has a lot to do with the right wing training to use "talking points" through "framing" the issues. They are far more adept at this than the left, not that I would support the left spreading lies to win power.
Bottom line for me is this: I am a Southerner and proud of it. I do not believe in region bashing because those who do not live in the south cannot understand it any more than I can truly understand the other regions of the country. In a political sense the south is not what I would like it to be, but I must accept that fact and do what I can to make a difference.
DU is not what it used to be, but I will not be leaving any time soon because I still at times get valuable information here that I use to make political points whenever I have an opportunity.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)pecwae
(8,021 posts)I'd prefer that posters who use a broad brush against regions, groups, etc. and those who rec their posts would go away, quietly or not. It's shit stirring extraordinaire.
Arkansas Granny
(31,539 posts)advocate that the south just quietly go away. You have, however, allowed many posters to engage in south bashing even if that was not the original intent of this thread.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)themselves for the bigots they are.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Not Mine. They said it. Not me. DU admins and Hosts are the ones that allowed us a place to discuss and ask questions. All I did was a ask a couple of question. My replies are mine only. That the south bashing posts are allowed to remain is something over which I have no control. That is for a jury to decide.
Arkansas Granny
(31,539 posts)a leading question, as you did, you must expect that you will receive some of the south bashing replies that we have seen in this thread. If you didn't expect others to jump on the south bashing bandwagon, you are much more naive than I would have thought you to be.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)it needed exposing. The other avenues for dealing with it are not working. You can call it a leading question if you so choose.
I ask you to phrase it as objectively as YOU can. I honestly tried my best to phrase the question as objectively as I could.
But the question needed to be asked after some of the things that juries have allowed to stand on here.
Arkansas Granny
(31,539 posts)My bad.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I was at a loss as how to handle the subject matter. I gave it shot. I am only human. and after some of the stuff I have read on DU3 I was really beginning to wonder. So, I thought I would ask. If I could have posted a poll, I would have. Sadly, that option is not available.
Please understand it was not my intention to offend anyone. Do accept my apologies and let us be friends.
Arkansas Granny
(31,539 posts)that seems to be aimed at this region on a regular basis.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Tennessee Gal
(6,160 posts)No region of this nation has cornered the market on idiocy. It is rampant everywhere.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)love the username, btw.
Hosnon
(7,800 posts)that I rarely visit DU3 (compared to DU2).
Not only is the format less appealing, but the crowd seems to have devolved.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Hosts are voicing opinions that leave me aghast. Simply aghast. How can they objectively host these forums/groups with that attitude?
Rex
(65,616 posts)you should report it to the admins.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)bvar22
(39,909 posts)Congratulations!
If you get your wish,
my wife & I will be staying with the part that gets New Orleans & the Gulf Coast.
The South is beautiful, and belongs to us all.
Its a shame to just give it way.
In 2006, my wife & I moved from Northern City Blue (Minneapolis)
to Red Rural South, and LOVE it here.
We won't be moving back.
bvar22 & Starkraven
turning the South Blue
For the OP and those who agree,
please don't come here.
We already have enough ignorance and small minds.
Everybody else is invited for Fresh Green Beans & Cornbread!
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)perhaps you would like to read the whole thread or, at least, do me the favor of reading my post #50 reply to Kali.
As for the non-invite. I have my own greens and cornbread. Thank you.
K8-EEE
(15,667 posts)Broderick
(4,578 posts)To this silly op. lol
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)one of those times where one has to laugh to keep from crying . . .
aaaaaa5a
(4,667 posts)K8-EEE
(15,667 posts)He is of the opinion that the South is hopelessly backward and resistant to progress of any kind.....but there are so many smart, progressive Southerners here on DU, it makes me think he is wrong.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Original post)
Post removed
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)just fucking wow. I love you, too
Neoma
(10,039 posts)(I read the entire thread.)
I would like to point out, that being inbred has nothing to do with racism except to stereotype southerners. And that since I've moved up to Illinois, someone has called me a hill-william. (Bigots are everywhere.) Northerners asked my grandmother when she moved here, if she had any shoes. If anyone's a little defensive, there's a reason.
I would also like to explain, that while my extended relatives are rascist religious bigots due to living out in the middle of nowhere, they never talked about the civil war. The only words about it that I've heard is my mom explaining that we had relatives on both sides of the war.
There's a bitterness there though. We're talking about a war that created generations of people in poverty, with limited access to a good education. Which just affirmed northern stereotypes. Because the south became isolated, slightly uneducated and overly religious, they soak up bad information. Politicians obviously exploit this, and next thing you know, they're voting republican.
That's just my take on it.
txwhitedove
(3,933 posts)US Cavalry troops that tried to wipe out the Indian tribes. And why do we "romanticize" Columbus by giving him a holiday for discovering a country already well populated by it's own native people? Blah, blah, blah....my head hurts too from seeing this crap all day. I thought DU3 would be different.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)been reposted in the American History group. However, I am not a GD (haha GD ?!) Host and therefore do not have that power.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)VERY disrespectful.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)If there is disrpecting done, I did it on myself.
I agree South Bashing is very disrespectful
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Why suggest such a thing? Why add absolutely no commentary to a negative statement that you have created in the OP and then bury a disclaimer further down? Please. IMHO, if you're trying to say that you support the South, you have failed.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)going on in GD and other groups/forums. Jury decisions allow the posts to remain and Hosts say that it is not within their power to the lock the threads. I sent a PM to Skinner several days ago concerning this issue. Still no reply. . . .
If I have failed DU it is only because DU failed me first.
Fearless
(18,421 posts)That is what I mean. If you mean what you say now that you mean.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I really don't know how much clearer I can make it. If, after reading this thread, you do not understand what has been happening on this board, may I suggest you check out other forums/groups and draw your own conclusions.
Peace.
TA
Fearless
(18,421 posts)That would certainly clear up any issues.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)oh dear.
are you really suggesting I do that?
If I thought editing my OP would clear up DU's region bashing I would do it, gladly. However, I know better and therefore will not.
You really think that woud clear up the issue of south bashing ?!
Fearless
(18,421 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Fearless
(18,421 posts)Refusing to clarify a point that has clearly been taken to mean different than what you claim it should mean, seems to say that you are more wanting to stir up issues than to solve them. I hope you would reconsider.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)because Latinos are more likely to support unions and both groups vote in their own economic self interest.
Skidmore
(37,364 posts)have molly coddled Big Money and social class along with yet more subtle racism? You tell me. Why should we tolerate these behaviors in any section of the nation and only hold one region responsible. We all have responsibility for the state of our social and political condition.