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[WilliamPitt]

This message was self-deleted by its author (WilliamPitt) on Fri Feb 15, 2013, 12:11 PM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[JDPriestly]

1. K&R.

[seabeyond]

2. yes. simple enough. nt

[HappyMe]

3. k&r

[onehandle]

4. What? You mean the 'gubberment conspiracy' to take him out isn't the extent of the story?

Say it ain't so.

[2pooped2pop]

14. Gubberment conspiracy?

so u are saying all the duers who see the corruption of our police and the police state we are moving into as just too stupid?

Saying that people here say Gubberment is the same thing. Do you want to go with name calling then?

[BlueStreak]

58. You are hitching your cart to the wrong horse, hoss

Let me just suggest that a psychopathic multiple murderer with delusions of grandeur and a death wish is probably not the best poster boy to rally around to discuss the legitimate problems with the LAPD.

[2pooped2pop]

60. yes, we should continue to ignore them

I guess you go with the poster boy u get rather than the poster boy u want.

such is life.

[BlueStreak]

168. No. You address the real issues head on and leave this other nonsense alone.

If there is institutional racism in the LAPD, then let's deal with that. But I sure wouldn't base my argument on the fact that the LAPD decided to fire a guy that showed himself to be a homicidal maniac, regardless of what color his skin was. That actually is pretty good evidence that the firing was a sound decision, don't you think? A more persuasive argument would be if they wrongly fired a black guy who IS NOT a homicidal maniac. Can we find one of those?

[2pooped2pop]

196. please don't tell me what I can and cannot address n/t

[Agnosticsherbet]

5. Dorner killed policeman and the children of policeman...

which makes him a popular outlaw of the Ned Kelley, Billye the Kid, or Bonnie and Clyde variety by those who don't like the police. He is viewed as someone who "took on the man" and that gives him a golden glow.

In Mexico, they would already written songs about him and be celebrating him as a freedom fighter.

His victims links to th police make them not worthy of threads, in some eyes.

[11 Bravo]

186. Neither Ned Kelley, Billy the Kid, nor Bonnie and Clyde ever ambushed and murdered ...

the child of a cop simply because of their parentage.

[Agnosticsherbet]

192. Different times, different strokes.

The above mentioned outlaws were, by many, considered heroes. I don't think they were anything more than murderers. People did see them as striking out against detested authority. It is not unusual to have outlaws who attack authority gain a following. I think that is what has happened.

[hfojvt]

6. apparently IOKIYNTS

It's okay if you are not the state.

[MADem]

17. I thought NTS was an abbreviation for 'nuts' there, for a second...nt

[Taverner]

7. Missing the point completely...

[2pooped2pop]

10. purposely

at that.

and I will add this from another post:

The problem I'm having is the increasing incidence of violence

lies and corruption of the police. Maybe if they had not also shot up more than one vehicle previously, then the fire thing would be easier to give them the benefit of the doubt.

I think the poor and especially black poor people in this area have been telling the truth all along. I think they have been abused repeatedly by the police. That's FN scary. Think about if you had no police protection, only police harassment. There are many many people saying that questionable deaths of the citizens at the police hands is not uncommon. The hell with Dorner. He's gone. It's how he went that confirmed in many peoples minds that the police are indeed out of control.

I think that is what most here are reacting to. It's the ever widening spread of police corruption and abuse. It's a scary thought when it is turned on you. I do know people that it has been turned on. Everyone lets it go coz you can't fight it.

But considering what the police reaction to occupy was, I'd say we all have something to be scared about. Big Brother? Hell no, worse. Big brother's army.

We need our police to protect us, to help us. We should not have to be afraid of them.

[MADem]

23. The "they" that shot up the vehicles is NOT the "they" that surrounded the cabin.

Different police departments, different leadership, different jurisdictions. They didn't even wear the same uniforms!

The San Bernadino County sheriff is not interchangeable with the LAPD Chief of Police. One agency is rural, the other operates in a very large urban environment.

I haven't heard of any longstanding "corruption" in the San Bernadino Sheriff's Department. I didn't know they busted up any "Occupy Big Bear" meetings in the deep dark woods, either.

[frylock]

28. there were several jurisdictions involved in that final episode..

including LAPD SWAT.

[MADem]

35. The "they" that were running the show were the San Bernadino County Sheriff's Department.

"They" had jurisdictional and operational control, not the LAPD.

[frylock]

113. regardless of who had operational control..

the cabin was surrounded by San Bernardino Sherriffs as well as LAPD, and officers from surrounding areas including Apple Valley and other jurisdictions that I can't recall off the top of my head.

[MADem]

114. Yes, and they had an APV out there that was tearing down the walls of the cabin, too.

The FBI got in on this, too.

They all wanted the guy to surrender. They said that, repeatedly.

He didn't.

The bottom line, though, is that this repeated blaming of the LAPD for everything that happened during the entire episode is just sloppy. Operational control is operational control. If you're in charge, you're IN charge. You take the blame and the credit. That's just how it works. That was the SB sheriff's scene, and his jurisdiction. It's on HIM, for good or ill.

[frylock]

115. that is indeed true..

for good or ill.

[2pooped2pop]

40. yes, they probably only have one bad apple in their

basket. Even so, everyone wants to know why people are pissed and I told you why.

[MADem]

73. The issue isn't bad apples--the issue is calling every law enforcement

action in the state of California "LAPD."

It's lazy broad brushing.

Also, most people seem to think that this guy was goaded and baited and boom--he FINALLY SNAPPED! That's not true in the slightest--he wasn't under any LAPD "pressure" when he decided to write that diatribe and go on a crazed killing spree.

The guy was suspended in 08, and terminated from a brief two year probationary period with the department in January 2009. Yep--he only was an LAPD (probationary) cop for two short years.

He's been away from those evil LAPD people for FOUR YEARS now.

If you look at his "manifesto" he was also ready to kill the gym teacher from junior high who "did him wrong" back in 1996. I wonder if his infant day care providers from the eighties were worried when they read that?

[2pooped2pop]

76. ya know what?

I've lately seen a few people without money go down and get unjust sentences for their crimes. So I think I have been very hypersensitive to that end of the Dorner case. (railroading by any part of our justice system) I still believe ever thing I wrote, but just not in such snarky ways.

So I apologize to you and every thread I have answered for doing so in such a snarky way. I think I need a break from DU. Too much knowledge can drive one crazy. I'm still gonna be here, I'm just going to try to limit it for awhile. I do use DU as a crutch.

Again, though we may disagree on some things, I am sorry for being snarky with it.

[MADem]

98. I like to discuss issues and current events, but I don't take things personally.

So no worries. Truly.

I don't argue that life, often, is not fair to a lot of people.

It is my entirely personal opinion that this guy has been suffering from untreated mental illness that has gotten worse in the last four years. I form that opinion from reading his "manifesto." It is plainly the output of a frustrated, disordered and angry mind. This fellow was obsessed with a life's worth of "victimization" and nothing was going to change his focus.

As I have said elsewhere, I wonder if he has been working for the last four years, if he had health insurance, or if access to psychiatric treatment and medication via Obamacare might have changed this outcome? I think asking those sorts of questions might be more productive than blaming a police department that let this guy go four years ago after a probationary two year period where he didn't--for whatever reasons--work out.

[George II]

57. Do you realize those that "shot up the vehicles" were not the same departments either???????????????

One was LAPD, the other the Torrance PD. Duh!

[MADem]

68. DUH, no, that's not true--LAPD did shoot up the vehicle in Torrance.

They were LAPD detectives--not sure if they were claiming "hot pursuit" or what, but they weren't Torrance PD.

Duh, indeed!

Here, a link, because that's how I play it: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/02/torrance-shooting-dorner-manhunt.html

And here, a cite from that link, so there's no misunderstanding:

Dorner manhunt: LAPD gunfire hits Torrance homes, cars


Residents in the quiet Torrance cul-de-sac where Los Angeles police mistakenly fired on two women delivering newspapers reported hearing a barrage of gunfire and discovered bullets that pierced cars, trees, roofs and garage doors.

..."That's why we live here because it is safe," said the cardiologist technician. "It's ironic that the only violence we experienced here is from LAPD."

[George II]

134. Both shootings were IN Torrance, the first by LAPD, the second by Torrance PD.....

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/feb/09/local/la-me-torrance-shooting-20130210

"David Perdue was on his way to sneak in some surfing before work Thursday morning when police flagged him down. They asked who he was and where he was headed, then sent him on his way.

Seconds later, Perdue's attorney said, a Torrance police cruiser slammed into his pickup and officers opened fire; none of the bullets struck Perdue."

Double DUH!

[MADem]

136. We'll just have to split the difference, then.

Two wrongs don't make a right, now, do they?

[George II]

187. In this case, three wrongs (think about it!)

[robinlynne]

70. and?

[robinlynne]

69. well put. Thank-you.

[seabeyond]

12. or, one may feel that you are missing a very glaring point. the victims.... nt

[2pooped2pop]

41. the victims of police departments across the country or just those

in and around LA?

[seabeyond]

45. ah. so the victims of doner matter not? not true victim? not as much victim?

yes. this would be the point of wills thread. i take it they are irrelevant to you for the "greater good".

[2pooped2pop]

50. your problem (Dorner) is dead

but people will continue to suffer unjustly by those sworn to protect them. THat problem will go on.

[robinlynne]

71. I think you take it wrong.

[2pooped2pop]

72. ya know what?

I've lately seen a few people without money go down and get unjust sentences for their crimes. So I think I have been very hypersensitive to that end of the Dorner case. (railroading by any part of our justice system) I still believe ever thing I wrote, but just not in such snarky ways.

So I apologize to you and every thread I have answered for doing so in such a snarky way. I think I need a break from DU. Too much knowledge can drive one crazy. I'm still gonna be here, I'm just going to try to limit it for awhile. I do use DU as a crutch.

Again, though we may disagree on some things, I am sorry for being snarky with it.

[seabeyond]

80. i can appreciate your post.

and i hear what you are saying. i get that feeling exactly with issues that mean that much to me.

i can agree with the issue with police force across the nation, the racism AND seixsim/misogyny within these power structures and an always need to address this issue.

but, i too feel like i can stand with what i posted in this thread also.

so.... i hear ya. thanks. and backatcha.

[geek tragedy]

82. No, the ones about whom you've shown zero concern. As has most of the site. nt

[cali]

8. here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022347397

134 recs, over 150 responses.

[Johonny]

15. but your facts get in the way of my pointless self conceived indignation!

I suggest you self delete that thread so I can pretend DUers didn't/don't care about the victims of crime

[cali]

19. lol. thanks for not ignoring my post, J.

[marions ghost]

9. RIP the four

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/13/chris-dorner-victims_n_2679973.html#slide=2104458

They seem to have an empty slot for a fifth victim in this slide show. In my mind I put Dorner there.

[cartach]

84. Only Doner

committed suicide and in his mind went out in a blaze of glory.

[Cha]

129. Thanks for that link, marions ghost..

Dorner: "I never had the opportunity for a family of my own so I'm terminating yours".

[magical thyme]

11. I am sad for everybody injured by this tragedy

The people murdered, their friends and families.

The people taken hostage and hijacked, who lost property and peace of mind.

The mail carriers and surfer who were shot at by the idiot police.

The woman who owns the destroyed cabin.

The man who was so psychologically ill that this became his "way out" of his sad life.

And I cannot blame the LE officers for their actions at the end. It is very easy to second guess from the safety of your desk or armchair.

In reality, they had very limited options at the end. And it was clear Dorner wanted to die, either by his own hand or by theirs. In the end, he chose to end it by his own hand. Maybe he had awakened from his nightmare and realized there was no way back...

[vankuria]

30. Well Said!

[kestrel91316]

33. Careful there - you are supposed to feel only hatred for Dorner.

[nobodyspecial]

49. There is are emotions between hatred

and admiration. One can accept the outcome without feeling hatred for Dorner. And, yes, I'm going to feel a hell of a lot more sympathy for his victims than I do for him.

[Chorophyll]

13. K&R.

I fail to understand why one mass-shooter is better than another. (And yes, I know all about the corrupt LAPD, and all the corrupt PDs. But once you start shooting random people, your point -- if you had one -- is moot.)

[rynestonecowboy]

34. K&R

Exactly!!!

[MADem]

16. Yes, some of whom left spouses and young children. It's rather unfortunate that a very small crew

can make such a loud noise here. It makes us look bad, IMO. And stupid.

I am particularly horrified at the people who think that the police department that killed this fugitive is the same police department where he worked, had a number of meltdowns, and was fired. These are the same people who apparently think that Barney Fife and Dirty Harry all know the same secret handshake.

No talking to 'em.

[2pooped2pop]

46. everyone is always stupid when they don't agree with you?

so tired.

[MADem]

79. Oh, please.

This guy had not worked for the LAPD for four years.

He only served two short (probationary) years where permanent employment is not guaranteed. He was LET GO after being suspended for six months.

He held a grudge for four long years, wrote a crazed manifesto that rambled on incoherently and called up slights going back to junior high school, and the answer to his obsessive grudges, in his mind, is to put bullets in people's heads.

Support for someone who wants Fareed Zakaria deported and who wites a suicide note naming a hundred celebrities and news presenters and politicians DOES make DU look stupid. The man was mentally ill, quite plainly untreated for that illness, it caused him to say and do crazy things, and it's not a Fristian diagnosis to come to that conclusion.

[KharmaTrain]

53. "Speaking Power To The Man..."

...this episode shows the resentment toward authority in general. Since Dorner put out his "manifesto" he became an instant folk hero...justified in "standing up to the man". They see him "getting justice"; using his carnage as some kind of light on the corruption of anything government oriented (don't forget about those expecting Dorner to be taken out by a drone strike). It was the perfect storm for those with agendas to muddy waters and no matter how this situation would have ended they would have found more "outrage". If Dorner had survived then we'd be hearing about how he's already being tortured...as you say, there's not talking to 'em.

Cheers...

[MADem]

90. There are inconvenient truths to his situation, too, that people would rather not acknowledge.

This guy's story is being shopped as if he was fired yesterday after a ten year career, or something.

The truth is he spent a scant two years working in the department, ON PROBATION, as all new hires are. He was suspended in June of 2008 and fired in January 2009. They tried him out, and he didn't, for whatever reason, make the grade.

That was four years ago.

So, for four years, he's been stewing about how people were mean to him.

His manifesto of grudges goes all the way back to 1996, to high school and an evil assistant principal and a thieving student/assistant PE teacher. Really. He also acknowledges that he might have suffered a pre-existing brain injury from his days playing school football:

Mr. xx, assistant principal, xx HS. Remember when you lied to my mother and the police officer in your office about stating that you never stated to me in a private conversation that you know the theft suspect (xx) stole my watch. Let me refresh your memory. A physical education teachers assistant, a student, stole the list of combination codes to peoples lockers, from the P.E. teacher. That student then opened many of those lockers and stole students personal property. My watch was taken in that multi theft an I reported it to you. A week later you discovered that the theft suspect was xx xx, a student. You stated to me in private that you know for a fact he stole my property. When I attempted to retrieve my property from the suspect. Campus security was called and you lied and stated that you never stated to me that you “know he stole my watch”. You sat there and lied to their faces right in front of me. You said it with such a deliberate, stern face. I never forgot that and was not surprised when 13 years later I was lied on again in the BOR by xx xx. maybe you can confess to your family at the very least in the private of your own home. After that, contact my mother and apologize for lying to her in 1996.

If possible, I want my brain preserved for science/research to study the effects of severe depression on an individual’s brain. Since 6/26/08 when I was relieved of duty and 1/2/09 when I was terminated I have been afflicted with severe depression. I’ve had two CT scans during my lifetime that are in my medical record at Kaiser Permanente. Both are from concussions resulting from playing football. The first one was in high school, 10/96. The second was in college and occurred in 10/99. Both were conducted at Kaiser Permanente hospitals in LA/Orange county. These two CT scans should give a good baseline for my brain activity before severe depression began in late 2008.



Read more: http://ktla.com/2013/02/12/read-christopher-dorners-so-called-manifesto/#ixzz2Ku0T1dzc
Read more at http://ktla.com/2013/02/12/read-christopher-dorners-so-called-manifesto/#PLr1SecC0fcLTxEj.99

If you go all the way down to the end of the manifesto, where he's naming celebrities, news anchors, politicians, his favorite tv shows and movies, as if he's thanking the Academy, or something, it becomes very evident, indeed, that the balance of this guy's mind is very, VERY disturbed. It is sad that he didn't receive effective psychiatric help in the last four years, which makes me wonder if he had a job with health benefits over the last four years. I would guess, unless he was sponging off relatives, that he had to be doing something to be able to pay for his truck and gasoline and day to day expenses.

I think a more productive series of questions about this guy would leave the LAPD behind and focus on what kind of medical care, if any, he received over the last four years, if he had psychiatric intervention and medications available to him, and if access to Obamacare might have altered his outcome?

[KharmaTrain]

96. This Walks Into A Far Bigger Issue Americans Don't Want To Go Near...

...Mental health. No question he was a very disturbed person that let his anger build over a long time. Unfortunately we see this profile in many of the mass murders who, in our media-fixated age, see lashing out as a mean to "send a message". Usually that message is that there were red flags in their past that people tried avoiding dealing with and allowed the anger inside to grow. Signs of depression is more likely to be viewed as a weakness rather than something that should be treated. More important, those suffering from mental anguish are made to feel weak or inadequate and shy away from admitting a problem and seeking help.

As is the case with much of what we deal with...there's no one thing that leads to these kind of tragedies. There is a real need in this country to stop demonizing mental illness...maybe more troubled people would then feel its "safe" to come out and find other remedies for their frustrations rather than "second ammendment" remedies...

Cheers...

[MADem]

101. Absolutely. People are afraid of the topic, and afraid of the sufferers, too.

I got a crash course in the subject up close and personal many decades ago via an in-law who had substantial struggles with the appropriate balance of psychiatric support and medication over the course of several years.

I won't lie, there were times when the illness was a bit...exasperating. We do find it easier to sympathize with a broken leg or brain cancer than we do with profound depression or bipolar disorder with schizophrenic affect. I think that education and awareness campaigns are helpful in this regard; it's not a character flaw, after all, it's a disease, a chronic illness that can be mitigated with medication and treatment.

I stuck with my in-law, and ran towards rather than from, and I'm glad I did. I have a best friend for life as a consequence, where I might otherwise have had a "tolerated relation by marriage."

[KharmaTrain]

112. Thank You For Sharing...

...this is a topic that always hits very close to home for most of us and is hard to talk about. My father suffered from profound depression and I tried to understand why and what it was all about. I saw how he could easily function in society with a smile on his face and no one knew of the personal anguish that would lead him to emotionally snap. This occurred in the 60s when mental health care was nowhere near what we have today and he never overcame those problems.

We all have our weakness and problems...our strength is only as good as one's support system. Here's hoping that more affordable healthcare will enable those who need treatment to get it and to finally de-stigmatize mental illness.

Cheers...

[dkf]

18. One from me

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022349814

But you are right...overwhelming coverage of Dorner, not much on the victims both here and in the media.

[Glassunion]

20. I'm confused. Is your thread for them, or for Dorner?

The only name you mention in your post is his.

[marble falls]

21. My sympathy for Mr Dorner ends at the two uninvolved people he murdered. That said ....

I really don't think he should have been burned up, either. Justice isn't only about the victim and the criminal, its also about society. A little due process was in order. They let another armed murderer sit sit in a storm cellar with a five year old child for at least a week not too terribly long ago.

[Blue_Roses]

22. Sadly, I think what gets lost in situations like this

is that many sympathize with the plight of the one who was allegedly "wronged" (alleged LAPD abuse), since so many have been in those same shoes--whether it be job, bills, healthcare, etc. I certainly can relate to the frustration and helplessness when one feels the odds stacked against him.

However, killing innocent lives is not the way to rack up support for justification. It then becomes a lost cause.

I just wish he could have connected to some support that would have given a positive outcome.

It's so sad all the way around.

[cliffordu]

24. Exactly. Crickets all around on that.

[dkf]

25. What is more messed up is the outrage on Dorner's behalf, not for Monica Quan or Keith Lawrence.

I think that is kind of sick myself.

[kestrel91316]

32. Most people are outraged, not on dorner's "behalf", but at the inappropriate actions of police.

Like it or not, THAT is an important part of this story.

[dbackjon]

42. And Dorner murdering Quan and Lawrence in cold blood was an appropriate action?

[robinlynne]

74. That is where you get it all wrong. There is not ONE DUer who thinks Dorner's murders were ok.

You guys just make this up. Because we are concerned about police actions does NOT mean we condone murders.
That is called a sophism.

[dkf]

51. How upset are you that Monica Quan is dead?

Have you felt a rage inside you at the injustice of it?

[frylock]

124. snap

[dkf]

158. Trayvon's death was a tragedy and obviously not his fault.

Now if I thought Zimmerman really did want to kill black kids I would be pissed. But I think it was an accident.

Zimmerman is probably guilty of manslaughter, but it's the crazy Florida law that is a problem.

Monica Quan's death was not an accident.

[MADem]

66. His manifesto fails my smell test. He rants on about how he wants to kill mean lesbian bosses and

minority officers ("high value targets?" That is some SICK shit and there's just no justifying that kind of talk) but his claim of "inappropriate actions" hasn't been substantiated by anyone who served with him.

Those Black officers in supervisory ranks and pay grades who stay in south bureau (even though you live in the valley or OC) for the sole intent of getting retribution toward subordinate caucasians officers for the pain and hostile work environment their elders inflicted on you as probationers (P-1′s) and novice P-2’s. You are a high value target. You perpetuated the cycle of racism in the department as well. You breed a new generation of bigoted caucasian officer when you belittle them and treat them unfairly.

Those Hispanic officers who victimize their own ethnicity because they are new immigrants to this country and are unaware of their civil rights. You call them wetbacks to their face and demean them in front of fellow officers of different ethnicities so that you will receive some sort of acceptance from your colleagues. I’m not impressed. Most likely, your parents or grandparents were immigrants at one time, but you have forgotten that. You are a high value target.

Those lesbian officers in supervising positions who go to work, day in day out, with the sole intent of attempting to prove your misandrist authority (not feminism) to degrade male officers. You are a high value target.

Those Asian officers who stand by and observe everything I previously mentioned other officers participate in on a daily basis but you say nothing, stand for nothing and protect nothing. Why? Because of your usual saying, ” I……don’t like conflict”. You are a high value target as well.



Read more: http://ktla.com/2013/02/12/read-christopher-dorners-so-called-manifesto/#ixzz2KtfjcfGQ
Read more at http://ktla.com/2013/02/12/read-christopher-dorners-so-called-manifesto/#Yg2X7Cxy5YtHS6T4.99

It is so easy to make accusations, and it's entirely likely that someone can accuse someone of doing something and the wagons are circled, and nothing is done, once, maybe even twice, but this guy, over and over and over, has problems and ONLY HE can see them, and EVERYONE ELSE (other blacks, hispanics, lesbians and asians, specificially) is evil and colluding against him. You'd think, if the job really did suck so much, that he wouldn't stay on, being victimized and bullied, day in, day out, for his two year probation before they let him go. If he could see that it wasn't a good fit, the thing to do is leave on good terms, not wait to get the boot. Go where you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated.


I think some of his claims were at least partly in his head, or that he aggrandized incidents to suit a victim mentality, and he may have even based his complaints on old stories that he read of real abuses from past victims of LAPD excess and brutality. And if you read the full "manifesto," he starts griping, towards the end, about grievances going all the way back to junior high school mean students, evil PE teachers, and assistant principals. He's plainly in Professional Victim mode. And since he was suspended way back in 2008, and terminated in January of 2009, he's been nursing this grudge for four long years, at least.

This guy was plainly NOT the sharpest knife in the drawer. He boasted about his "Dam Neck" training, yet he couldn't start a boat and managed to fuck up the propeller with the tow line; he couldn't manage to tie up two people so they couldn't escape, and couldn't manage to start their keyless vehicle (had to go back and ask how to start it)--he was just a screw up.

I think he was big, fit and had a good appearance, and that carried him a long way. I think he probably wasn't the sharpest knife, and had poor judgment, and then, when mental illness comes into the picture, the result was an imperfect storm of tragedy. He was only ON the force for two short probationary years--the way he writes, he has enough "drama" for a twenty year career. I think he was what many agencies call a "low quality recruit" who looked good during the vetting process, but who wasn't able to fold into the organization effectively pwing to untreated and serious mental illness.

The last section of that diatribe, where he praises Chris Christie and Hillary Clinton in the same sentence, and rambles on about Shark Week and other actors and news presenters he likes and hates, is a real window into his head--and it is plain that this guy isn't all there.

[Hatchling]

26. Where are the threads you posted for them?

You could just as easily posted those threads.

[2pooped2pop]

27. ahhh, u must have missed all the "he killed two beautiful young people"

threads. Maybe the young and beautiful have more value than the older and not nearly so beautiful (in some eyes) latino women nearly killed by the gung ho squad?

You weren't looking if you missed the threads that included those poor people killed by Dorner. They were in every single thread. Take a look.

[frylock]

29. search function broken for you, Will?

[kestrel91316]

31. They aren't controversial but he is? People like to talk about controversy. It's human nature.

[Sedona]

36. Where was the due process for Monica Quan and Keith Lawrence?

[yurbud]

38. By that logic, we should never have trials for murder. While the courts are flawed, lynch mobs have

a worse track record of accuracy.

[dbackjon]

43. That makes zero sense as a reply

Dorner gave ZERO due process to Quan and Lawrence.

Unless you are implying that they deserved to die.

[yurbud]

54. I am not implying that at all, but "due process" like the Geneva Convention is for people we don't

like and want to take vengeance on.

It's very likely the cops didn't have too many options that didn't involve Dorner ending up dead, but as a society, we should prefer a due process outcome.

Unless, like 9/11, this will be used as an excuse to scare us into giving up due process for ourselves as well as "them."

[dbackjon]

56. What would you have suggested they do?

Starve him to death?

[yurbud]

61. you seem not to have read my reply. The cops may not have had other options

that is different that saying "where was the due process for the victims."

Of course there was no due process for the victims. And we show that we are more civilized and fair than the killer by not acting in blind rage, but using due process when we can to make sure we hold the right person accountable for the crime and protect society from future harm by that person.

Why have so many people gotten collective alzheimers about civics since the turn of the century?

[dbackjon]

63. I fully understand due process

But it takes two to tango, so to speak.

Dorner was not surrendering. So again, what options did LE have to end the situation that would ft your definition of due process?

[yurbud]

133. I was arguing with your comment about the victims which implied that with that crime,

he forfeited his due process rights.

[dbackjon]

138. That is not what I said

I merely noted that Dorner didn't give his victims due process...

[geek tragedy]

81. Well, if he was violently opposed to engaging in due process, not their

fault that he received none, is it?

Takes two to tango.

[Sedona]

52. Dorner was holed up in a house shooting at cops with a assault rifle

Would it have been any different if a sniper took him out?

Who's to say one didn't before the fire?

Tell me then, how were they to apprehend the guy shooting at anything that moved?

[yurbud]

179. I didn't say that, I was just responding to the "due process" comment

as I mentioned in a follow up, it's hard to imagine an outcome where Dorner would get out alive unless he phoned in a surrender and came out of the cabin buck naked to show he didn't have any weapons.

[meanit]

37. There should be more threads for Dorner's victims

but unfortunately many posters are still tied up fighting with inflexible people who think it's good operating procedure for police to burn suspects to death if they can't shoot them.

[yurbud]

39. that's a good summary.

[yurbud]

44. people are giving the domestic equivalent of the argument for torture and drone executions

Dorner most likely did what he's accused of, but not all murder cases are so open and shut.

And as we've seen with in the War on Terror, a lot of the "high value targets" turned out to be a quite a bit less than the government claimed.

The only way we can be sure is to get people in court, under oath, and summary executions short-circuit that.

[Nay]

59. Indeed. If this were a simple event of a nutcase killing innocents and, in the end, being chased

down by the police and shot dead after he fired his gun at the cops, THERE WOULD BE NO CONTROVERSY HERE. No one would be discussing this thing at all, because it happens in this country every frikkin' day, almost. We would shake our heads sadly at the innocents who died and the cops who died doing their duty, and go on.

The takeaway from this story for all of the citizens of the US is that several police forces independently acted like total murderous assholes themselves, making us citizens wonder if we can even count on the police to look in our car window to confirm if we look like the bad guy or not! Or will we be shot at with dozens of bullets, like the 2 Latinas or the skinny white male surfer were, by LAPD and the Torrance PD? Even though the make, model, and color of our vehicles were nothing like Dorner's?

And, even after the citizens were upset over the out-of-control and illegal police attacks on the Latinas and the white man, the police surrounding the cabin COULDN'T SEEM TO BRING THEMSELVES TO ACT MATURELY AND SOBERLY, even though they knew everyone was watching them? They couldn't even refrain from screaming, "Burn the motherfucker!!!"?

Now, do I really have to say here that just because I think Dorner may have had a point, I don't admire him? And I feel sad for the victims? Do I really have to say that? There is a larger problem here, and it, in my mind, is more important than Dorner or the victims, because it can affect everyone within range of these police departments.

[dbackjon]

48. What about the inflexible mob that is unwilling to admit that Dorner had a chance to surrender

Refused to, then killed himself?


Or that maybe, just maybe, the fire was not the intent?

[meanit]

83. Of course Dorner could have surrendered

but they knew he wouldn't and the cop's trigger happy actions prior to him being located kind of spelled out what was in store.
The fire also could have possibly been an unintended side effect of the tear gas shot inside, but there is also evidence out there that the police on the scene decided on a pre-planned action to burn the cabin down with Dorner in it.
Most people understand that Dorner had turned into a murdering animal and needed to be stopped quickly. I think what is troubling to people is that police on the scene may have also turned into vengeful animals as well, and that should not happen in a nation of laws.

Comments of "who cares", "he had it coming" and "I'd have lit the match myself" here on DU are also not helpful.

[dbackjon]

141. If he wasn't going to surrender

Then what would you have suggested the police do?

He had already killed two LEO's, plus two civilians. Were there very pissed off LEO's? Sure there were. Would you be happy if one of your co-workers was murdered simply for doing his job? Police are human as well.


Should the officers that fired on the Newspaper ladies and the other vehicle be disciplined? You bet. Those cops were trigger happy.

[meanit]

166. What would I have suggested the police do?

Gee, I really don't know, I'm not on a SWAT team. But I know that millions of taxpayer dollars are spent on training and equipping specialized police units to deal with this kind of stuff and worse.
The fucking locals could have burned down the cabin much cheaper. Is napalm OK next time? Where does it stop? Where are we going by accepting these kinds of police methods, if they really did purposely burn that cabin?

[dbackjon]

172. Maybe we should let an investigation happen first

[meanit]

177. Agreed

an investigation shoud happen. 4 murdered in cold blood. A horrendus tragedy.

[geek tragedy]

88. Or it's people who insist on stating that the police tried and actually

succeeded in burning him to death with zero fucking evidence of that.

[meanit]

110. Dorner is gone. What do you care if people question the cop's intentions?

You choose to ignore any recorded or other evidence out there that call the cop's intentions into question. One one the deputies said on TV "we didn't set the fire on purpose" and that's all there is about it for you. No investigation or second guessing needed. If that's your opinion, then fine.

But there is zero evidence for any questions to be raised? Peddle that somewhere else.

[geek tragedy]

117. For one, you have no evidence he burned to death as opposed to

dying of a self-inflicted gunshot.

Two, you have no evidence that the intent of the tear gas cannisters was to cause death by burning rather than to get him to flee the building.

Three, you have no way of knowing whether there was a fire accelerant present in the cabin, which would explain how fast the fire spread.

Four, you have no evidence that the guy ranting "burn the motherfucker' had any kind of operational control or that he was doing more than ranting due to adrenaline.

[meanit]

154. You have no more evidence than anybody else, either.

First off, I was responding to why people are not posting more threads about the victims, saying that it's possibly due to the fact that they keep getting hammered every time they question the police's methods in this incident. Many people here have said that they are not concerned about the methods the police used to get Dorner, even if he was killed by an intentionally started fire. That's just wrong IMO, so there is an argument over whether it's OK to burn a suspect up if you can't shoot him first.

Many questions about this whole thing still linger, but the police are not beyond reproach in this.

[frylock]

116. indeed

[NCTraveler]

47. You could have started a thread for them instead of asking where they were.

Think about it, you could have been a trend starter.

[Katie]

67. I think Will just did

in his own way. Thank You, Will.

[Hekate]

55. See what you started Will?

They're still at it.

Monica Quan -- guilty as charged. The fellow who defended Dorner in his case -- also guilty as charged.

Tried, judged, executed by Dorner. They must be guilty, because he killed them.

But he's the injured party.

Also, there is no difference between the rural San Bernardino County Sheriff Dept and the LAPD.

[frylock]

128. 55 posts in, and that's your takeaway?!

please, oh PLEASE do point us to the "Monica Quan -- guilty as charged. The fellow who defended Dorner in his case -- also guilty as charged" posts.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

176. Hey, would you let me know when the imminent answer arrives?

I can't wait to find all the people blaming Monica Quan. I must have the Lite version of Google; I can't seem to find these posts.

[frylock]

184. i must have those people on ignore, because i'm not seeing those posts either

[rustydog]

62. Innocent victims all

This man blamed the whole world for his failings refusing to take responsibility and innocent people were executed by him.
A sad state.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

64. This is one unique story. A perfect storm if you will.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

65. The guy was selfish. He wasn't trying to lead a cause....

He was out for personal revenge for personal gratification.

[ciking724]

75. It's hard to get to empathy for Dorner's victims until

his case is investigated, his name is cleared, and the LAPD is cleaned up. That's what this whole thing was about. If he had received some semblance of empathy and justice, this whole thing would never have happened.

[geek tragedy]

85. So, your stance is that Dorner is the real victim, and until his good name is cleared

you refuse to give a fuck about the people he butchered.

I call troll.

[ciking724]

119. My stance is exactly as stated, it is difficult for those who identify

with Dorner to get to empathy for his victims in the absence of acknowledgement of the wrong that was done to him and to those he spoke up for. That's all I'm saying. No need for vile language.

[geek tragedy]

121. You spoke as one who identifies with Dorner.

here is what you wrote:

It's hard to get to empathy for Dorner's victims until

his case is investigated, his name is cleared, and the LAPD is cleaned up. That's what this whole thing was about. If he had received some semblance of empathy and justice, this whole thing would never have happened.

No, it is not hard for DECENT people to get empathy for Dorner's victims.

Indecent pricks who identify with serial killers are a different story.

[ciking724]

130. I disagree. Decent people will be concerned about investigating this case and bringing those

responsible to justice, so that this sort of thing, or worse, does not continue to happen. If Officer Teresa Evans had been properly disciplined for kicking the mentally ill detainee in the chest and head, instead of promoted, this would never have happened. If you want to blame someone for the victims, blame Evans and the LAPD.

[geek tragedy]

132. I'll blame the guy who shot them. Novel idea.

The fact that you have more compassion for Dorner than the innocent people he murdered to the point where you have ZERO compassion for them, well, puts you next to the Charlie Manson groupies.

[dbackjon]

147. Yup

[geek tragedy]

157. Okay, you're just a troll.

I'll let MIRT deal with you.

[ciking724]

159. Not a troll; just sharing the truth. Have a nice day!

[Dreamer Tatum]

169. If it wasn't against the TOS to call you a troll, I'd call you a troll. nt

[MessiahRp]

195. Um, you still just called them a troll.. which is against TOS

You can't roundabout insult and pretend it's not an insult.

[dbackjon]

144. Disgusting attitude

you are assuming that Dorner's manifesto is 100% correct.

Have you considered that maybe HIS version is incorrect? It could be, and case should be re looked at. But he showed signs of instability/PSTD/Victim complex prior. Probably never should have been hired in the first place.

You are believing the rants of a serial murderer. You REFUSE to assign any blame to Dorner.

Even if Dorner had been screwed over by LAPD, that doesn't justify killing anyone.



You make me ill.

[geek tragedy]

148. Ruh roh, we're agreeing a lot these days.

Peace be with you, man.

[dbackjon]

151. LOL - I noticed that ;)

[ciking724]

167. This man was not insane, and you know that. He WAS NOT a serial murderer, or he

would have killed the 3 people in the mountain that he could easily have killed. I never said that his killings were justified. I do believe that the anger and bitterness directed at him should be directed at the LAPD and others who wronged him. His writing and his actions are not representative of "instability/PTSD/Victim complex." You want to vilify him and give LAPD and those who wronged him a pass. It is your own evil heart that makes you ill.

[dbackjon]

173. Who says anything about giving LAPD a pass?

I have already said that Dorner's case needs an outside investigation.

Yes, you did say the killilngs were excusable.

Should he be villified for murdering four people? Hell yeah!!1


Does that mean I am giving LAPD a pass? Nope.

[sibelian]

178. Oh, what absolute RUBBISH.

The LAPD chose their actions and HE chose HIS. These to parties are, respectively, responsible for THEIR OWN ACTIONS.

[DevonRex]

181. How dare you call a DUer evil while excusing a serial killer. Yes, he was a serial killer.

No matter how you try to excuse him that's exactly what he was. You wanna talk about evil? It sure isn't in the people who understand that Dorner was a murderer and was responsible for his own actions. Dorner even killed the daughter of the man who defended him, believed him. And look what that got him. A dead daughter. I bet he wishes he'd killed Dorner himself now instead of listening to Dorner's bullshit for one second because that's all it ever was - bullshit. He proved that.

[hrmjustin]

185. I disagree.

I think all anger should go to him for taking those lives. I am all for investigating the LAPD, but the anger should be directed at him. And calling another member here a liar is just plain wrong. Your post should have been hidden.

[MADem]

111. Your remarks do not account for a couple of facts.

If "that's what this whole thing is about" why didn't Dorner do this four years ago?

He was fired four years ago. Why wasn't he interested in "clearing his name" back then?

He also wants to "clear his name" with his high school assistant principal from a grievance dating back to 1996, FWIW.

He only worked for LAPD for two "probationary" years. He didn't successfully complete his probationary period. They suspended him, and then they terminated his employment.

The bigger question is "What happened to this guy in the intervening four years?" It's obvious that he became obsessed with a sense of victimization over that period of time, but what else happened to him?

[geek tragedy]

123. People who identify with a serial killer generally are sociopaths to begin with.

That poster being an example. So of course they don't empathize with the real vicitms.

[ciking724]

125. My understanding is that the LAPD

charge that he filed a false report resulted in him losing his top secret security clearance this year, 2013. Perhaps, that was the last straw. It doesn't matter how many intervening years elapsed, or that he only completed two "probationary" years at LAPD. My understanding is that his employment with LAPD was interrupted by his deployment to war. He wasn't obsessed with a sense of victimization. He told the truth about what he witnessed and he was punished for it.

[geek tragedy]

126. How on earth does that affect your ability to feel empathy

for the people he massacred?

[ciking724]

145. For many people, the injustice to Dorner and the victims he spoke up for,

coupled with the lack of any corrective action at LAPD, the BOR, and LA Superior Court, simply obscures any feelings of empathy for the victims. I'm sure there is a desire to feel sympathy/empathy for those who were killed or injured during this ordeal, as well as their families. It is just difficult to get there when the injustice done to him has not been acknowledged and his name cleared.

[geek tragedy]

146. Speak for yourself please.

You said yourself that it's hard to feel empathy until Chris Dorner's name is cleared, because he's the real victim in all of this.

You also said that he's not the one to primarily blame for the deaths of those people.

[Zoeisright]

193. That attitude is fucking sick.

Seek help.

[dbackjon]

152. He told HIS version of what he believed happened

He may be right. He may be wrong. how do you know for certain?

[ciking724]

155. I think in our heart of hearts, we all know he told the truth.

How we respond to that truth reveals who we really are: champions of justice and righteousness or just plain evil.

[dbackjon]

156. So you are saying that someone that does not believe Dorner 100% is EVIL?

[geek tragedy]

161. Dude, this is a troll. A rightwinger talking like his fantasy of what

leftwingers believe.

I regret falling for it.

[dbackjon]

162. Yet his posts are cleared by the jury...

[geek tragedy]

164. He'll fall off the high wire eventually. nt

[MADem]

175. He had failed of selection TWICE. That's why he lost his clearance.

USN selection process is "up or out." Two tries, and then you fly. He'd been in the Navy for over a decade, there is no way that he didn't know this. There's also no way that he could have avoided the unfortunate truth that one is more likely to be struck by lightning than to be selected on a second go-round. It's the very rare exception, not the rule.

He had already been told, once, that he wasn't promotion material. A full year later, he was told, again, that he didn't make the cut. Based on his assignments and fitreps, he must have had a sense that he wasn't going to be one of those "rare exceptions" that make the cut after the fist FoS.

Once he failed of selection again, the clock starts ticking and he has to outprocess from the service. When one outprocesses, one leaves one's assigned command and that security clearance goes bye-bye. You don't have a need to know, so you don't have access. That's just the way it is. It's not personal. A clearance isn't like a plaque for one's "I Love Me" wall. It doesn't stay active if the person who held it isn't on the rolls.

You lose access to classified material when you retire, too.

You do know he spent just two years working at LAPD, and his last day of work was in 2008? Long time to hold a grudge, absent any mental illness--IMO.

He also, after he failed in his grievance against the police department, took the LAPD to court--his case was dismissed. That was a couple of years ago. If the Navy took his clearance for "filing a false report" they should have taken it a few years ago.

His last day in the USN was 1 February. He knew he was a FoS in December at the latest, and that he would have to go. He also had to know, if he ever picked up a Navy Times, that there's force shaping going on across all branches and it's only going to get worse, and he stood a better chance of having Donald Trump declare him Miss America than get promoted on the second go-round. Standards are getting tougher too (particularly weight and fitness standards). If the LAPD were going to get him "fired" they would have done it in 2009--and he never would have had a promotion board in 2011 or 2012.

I wouldn't be surprised if his outprocessing from USN "set him off" but he was barking up the wrong tree to blame LAPD for USN's decision to fail to promote him, not once, but twice. He was in "victim mode" and looking for someone to blame, and the balance of his mind was most assuredly disturbed.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

77. these argument about dorner are really pushing on the intellectually dishonest territory

we can't control individual mad men however we can control how our state decides to kill people. No one is stating support for dorner, at best i have seen threads that state that we should attempt to understand how he got that crazy. there have been anti-lapd thread, as the lapd has a LONG shitty history of racism. There have also been threads questioning whether the LAPD intentionally let Dorner die. That being said, no one is claiming his victims deserved to die or that people dont feel bad for his victims

people who try to conflate issues, should really attempt to be a bit more honest with their level of debate. it would vastly help DU and life in general.

[geek tragedy]

87. Had he been a Neo-Nazi white guy and his victims African-American, I can

guarantee you the ratio of pity for the murderer vs the murder victims would have been a lot lower around here.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

92. yes, because there is historical context there. not because of nothing.

[geek tragedy]

93. Historical context is irrelevant to the blameworthiness of a man who murders

innocent strangers. Just like it is irrelevant to the people he was shooting at.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

97. actually the example you provided does matter

nazis killing blacks matter.

it's not irrelevant at all.

[geek tragedy]

99. Not really. Monica Quan's family is grieving regardless.

And her killing was not a form of justice, as some here have maintained.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

100. yes, and no one is saying that she was not a victim or that her death was not sad

[geek tragedy]

103. At least one person is:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2374404

[La Lioness Priyanka]

105. one person w. 65 posts on du. my original argument that people are really stretching

other people's points and being intellectually dishonest still stands.

[geek tragedy]

107. Hmmm, how many people were denouncing the police for taking him out

and calling them murderers for firing tear gas at him?

Site consensus was that his death was an act of murder by the police for which they should be put in prison.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

109. again, we can't control individual mad men we however have a responsibility to control

our government and its various branches, including the police.

this is a political site, so talking about governmental abuse is integral to the sites mission.

[geek tragedy]

118. Problem is, people are claiming abuse where there's no evidence

of abuse, with regard to how Dorner died.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

104. one du'er with 65 posts, is your best example of how du'ers dont think about the victim.

[geek tragedy]

106. Those who refer to her death as "retributive justice' and those who say

"I am not a detractor of his" etc etc.

Certainly there's been a lot more outrage at Dorner's death than there has been at the deaths of the people he butchered.

How many threads of people denouncing the police as muderers , vigilantes, and murderers based on the mere fact that they didn't like the fact that Dorner died--all receiving dozens of recs? (yes, I know they claim it was a due process concern, but not a single one has explained how his due process rights were violated)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

108. this is because we can't stop individual people but the state acts at our behest

so when a state commits a murder it is something we can get involved in.

this is why we talk about capital punishment on du more than we talk about every murder that occurs in america

[geek tragedy]

120. But the false accusation that Dorner was murdered indicates more than

a concern for police abuse.

It shows a bias to alleging police abuse where there was no such abuse. Not necessarily bias against the police, but rather bias due to sympathy for the deceased.

For example, not a single person at DU--not a single one--expressed any kind of concern about the police action against Jimmy Lee Dykes.

The universal reaction was "go cops, good job taking the bastard out."

No moral nuance, no one calling it a lynching. Not a single person raising the issue of police vigilantism or citing Dykes's due process rights.

[Nay]

91. Yes, Lioness, you are exactly correct. I expect DUers to be better at critical thinking, and I

sure have been disappointed at the intellectually dishonest stuff I've read on lots of Dorner threads. Thank you.

[geek tragedy]

127. The main point of intellectual dishonesty is the claim that the police use of the tear

gas was illegal, murder, vigilantism, and that it violated Dorner's due process rights.

All of those claims are complete hogwash.

[frylock]

131. no no no. anything short of "Burn the mutherfucker" is tacit approval..

of dorner and his actions. in fact, you've practically aided and abetted him if you offer any condemnation or concern for the tactics employed by the police in this entire episode.

the fact that you need be on record, with timestamp, condemning dorner's actions, despite the fact that it should go unsaid that his killing of two LEOs, let alone Quan and her fiancé is indeed a horrendous act is the height of absurdity.

[geek tragedy]

135. When people make shit up about how his rights were violated, that's a tacit

form of sympathizing.

If this guy were a Neo-Nazi in the Arkansas foothills who got tear gassed and then shot himself after killing several law enforcement officers, not a single one of you would be complaining about due process rights.

But, this guy has generally liberal politics, and he hates cops, so he's a victim.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

174. yeah i agree. also we dont exert control over random civilian actions (even if they are as heinous

as murder) but we do and should exert control over our police departments.

[Bonobo]

182. +1 nt

[Prism]

78. Depends. Do I agree with their politics?

If so, lets get them started!

(Man, DU has lost so much credibility this week. The next time a right-wing spree killer goes wild and cites Hannity, conservatives are going to fall over themselves rushing to point out how the Left has reacted to Dorner. Stupid stupid stupid).

[Chorophyll]

86. Yup. In a nutshell. nt

[one_voice]

190. Yep.

[Gore1FL]

89. Start them.

It would far more productive than starting one like this.

[Jim Lane]

122. The reason for the difference is that DU is largely a place for discussing public affairs.

We pay the most attention to government actions. Private actions (e.g., here's how some big corporation is screwing over its workers) are taken up primarily in the context of what government should do (e.g., this is why we need card check). Sometimes, DUers analyze private actions to inform us in our role as consumers (this is why you should boycott that company).

Note the posts just in this thread about whether the police acted improperly and which police department did what. There are legitimate differences of opinion on the government’s conduct vis-a-vis Dorner. Pursuing those differences makes sense because we have some control over the police and we can expect that similar situations will recur; when they do, we want all law enforcement agencies to act appropriately.

We discuss those questions because we have some influence over them. There’s not much point to a discussion of whether homicidal maniacs should kill innocent people. We all agree on the answer, and furthermore our opinions on the subject won’t influence the future conduct of any psychotics who are contemplating whether to go on a murder spree.

This was well put by La Lioness Priyanka in the first paragraph of #77, though I don’t agree with her charge that other DUers are being intellectually dishonest.

[geek tragedy]

139. The question, though, is whether this debate would be going on under the exact

same facts for someone who wrote a manifesto like Anders Breivik's.

Would a white supremacist or Prepper who killed cops inSouthern California and then died in this kind of stand-off be declared a lynching victim?

Would people proclaim that his due process rights were violated?


Of course not. Could be the exact same cops, but there actions would be judged heroic not criminal.

[Jim Lane]

160. I, for one, believe in due process for all -- even Anders Breivik.

Of course, DUers are human. Our view of a complex situation is necessarily influenced to some extent by our sympathies for the different actors. I think you're too cynical, though, in implying that no one would raise an issue of violation of rights if the victim were a despised right-winger.

You might take note of the famous incident of the Nazi march in Skokie. The ACLU defended the Nazis' rights under the First Amendment. I and many other liberals agreed with the ACLU position. We believe that an individual's rights are violated when the government prevents him or her from expressing an opinion simply because its content is unwelcome, and we hold that view regardless of whether the person is denouncing Muslims or police racism or "non-Aryans".

Admittedly, your cynicism isn't totally without foundation. The ACLU lost members over the Skokie battle, because many people who had professed adherence to the rule of law turned out not to believe in it for right-wingers.

[geek tragedy]

163. Here's an example of what I was talking about.

http://www.kansas.com/2012/12/17/2606830/topeka-police-remove-man-from.html

Guy kills cops. Guy hides out in house. Guy refuses to come out. Cops send tear gas into house. Cops shoot guy when he comes outside.

No one found it even noteworthy. Not only at DU--anywhere. Didn't even raise an eyebrow.

Why? Because it's SOP for police dealing with a holed up gunman.

Which is why the big DU freakout over what was a routine police operation seems so bizarre.

[yurbud]

142. You put it best.

[DevonRex]

137. I wondered that. Especially

When I saw that they had small children. It's heartbreaking. And Dorner murdered the daughter of the man who tried to help him. That is pure evil. So I mourn for the victims and for the families they left behind.

[bluestateguy]

140. Too many people are trying to "understand" Dorner and intellectualized gibberish defenses of him

Not so many here at DU, but elsewhere on the internet.

At a certain point ,actions cross the line into the territory of pure evil and no more intellectualized defenses or overly complicated explanations should be made.

The real world is not a graduate seminar in sociology.

[yurbud]

150. that's what right wing pundits said after 9/11, and the lack of public analysis of motives

led to the unnecessary deaths of thousands of our troops and over a million Iraqis and I don't even know how many Afghans.

You don't make the world a safer place by suddenly declaring comic book and action movie logic is the only that applies.

[sasha031]

143. K/R thank you for your post

Why haven't people been questioning why Dornan was able to purchase an arsenal to start a war legally?

[Cha]

149. The latest victim was Jeremiah MacKay

Sheriff John McMahon said that MacKay, 35, was pronounced deceased at the hospital. According to McMahon, MacKay was a member of the sheriff's department for 15 years and that he was married and a father to two children -- a 7-year-old girl and a 4-month-old son.

MacKay was presently assigned to the Yucaipa station but was also a detective at the Big Bear station.

Meanwhile, Riverside police held a funeral for the officer killed in last week's gun battle. CBS San Diego affiliate KFMB reports Michael Crain, a 34-year-old father of two, was allegedly shot by Dorner when the fugitive ambushed him and another officer. The second officer was wounded

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57569237/deputy-slain-in-ex-cop-shootout-has-been-idd/

Mackay interviewed last Saturday..

MacKay was interviewed by The Associated Press last Saturday while helping search for Dorner. “Everyone is here for the safety of everyone,” MacKay said, “for the safety of each other, for the safety of you.”

http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2013/02/13/authorities-in-san-bernardino-say-manhunt-for-dorner-is-now-over/

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1240&pid=222158

[geek tragedy]

165. You mean the 'alleged victim' right?

DUEPROCESS!!!!!!

[Bonobo]

183. You have made your contempt for the concept of due process pretty clear. nt

[lynne]

170. Thank you. I've wondered the same thing -

- the lack of sympathy towards the victims is a really sad reflection on us, IMO.

[Ilsa]

180. I agree completely.

I don't care what was done to him by his employer. He killed four innocent people.

[Android3.14]

188. This is the silliest response I have read

I recognize that WP has a lot of readers, including myself for the most part. But man, really? Waving your finger and shaming people because they don't comply with some unreal and saccharine notion of human sentimentality is sophomoric on the surface and naive at any level.

[Blecht]

189. No idea

But I do know I am hiding this one.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

191. I thought you were actually paid to write.

You've got the chops; get busy writing those threads, and don't waste so much time doing this preachy/pedantic thing demanding that the rest of us write human interest stories about the victims' puppies or cross-stitch hobbies or whatever. You want something written? Start writing it. You want to preach at the entire DU community for not doing something you think should be done? Take it somewhere else. Derp, indeed.

[Prophet 451]

194. I think it's a tragedy when anyone dies by violence

I think it's a tragedy that Dorner killed four innocent people. I think it's a tragedy that Dorner himself is dead. Not because I sympathize with his actions but because, from what I've been able to gather from over here (the UK), he was obviously mentally unstable (which is quite different to being legally insane). I would have preferred that he was taken alive and stood trial for his crimes (but that was never going to happen, rampage killers rarely let themselves be taken alive) or that he had received some help before his mind unraveled to the point that murder became logical to him.

But this isn't new. Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Liz Stride, Catherine Eddows, Mary Jane Kelly. Did any of those names ring a bell? Probably not but I bet you know the nom de crime of the man that killed them. His nickname (probably the creation of some enterprising reporter) was Jack The Ripper. When I was a teenager, I first read about the Ripper. It was 1988, the centennial of his crimes and I became fascinated by this killer that couldn't be caught because society so utterly failed those five women that the least they were owed was to put a face on their killer. Right now, I'm studying criminal psychology. If I am ever well enough to work again, I intend to spend the rest of my life helping to catch and convict criminals. The killers are always remembered, the victims are usually forgotten. That's a horrible fact of human nature, I'm afraid. We remember the aberrant far more easily than we remember their victims. If you want me to wax philosophical, I suspect it's because humans thinks in stories. The story of the monster, the killer who jumps out of the shadows and comes to a grisly end, that's easy to remember but who remembers the monster's victims? We're so used to this story that the details, the victims, cease to matter. One victim, we might remember, if it were especially heinous but more than that and they become just numbers, tally marks. We remember the killer because he was aberrant, unusual. We forget the victims because they were normal, unremarkable but for the way they met their end.

And there are always people who sympathize with the criminal. Do you know which inmate in US custody gets the most mail? Charles Manson. Some of the mail is doubtless from people like me who are looking to understand the criminal mind. Some of it is doubtless death threats or hate mail. But a lot of it is from people who sympathize with Manson or have convinced themselves that he was innocent. Dorner killed two law-enforcement officers, as I understand it. For some, the police are a hated authority, brutal and corrupt (and, in some cases, they're right). And finally, one doesn't need to sympathize with the killer to question how he died. I don't have the full facts at hand so I'm not saying the police handled the matter properly or improperly but if there are questions, they need to be answered.