Post removed

[ellisonz]

1. These people don't give a damn who they hurt with this nonsense.

Last edited Wed Feb 20, 2013, 03:29 AM - Edit history (1)

That IMHO is not what this country is about. They seem to have developed an ability to read only one small portion of the Constitution to the exclusion of the rest of the document all while making a tidy profit. Really no better than Wall Street Bankers...

[hack89]

28. If Colorado thinks they are so dangerous

why didn't they ban the possession of high capacity mags? And why will they permit the manufacture of high capacity mags within the state?

[Robb]

32. Wait for it.

Senate amendments come next.

[hack89]

34. No indication that it will be proposed

that is what kills me about these laws - nothing of significance is achieved. When you read the law it is clear that Colorado residents can simply go to another state to get these mags - there is no way to determine when mags were purchased and the legal burden of proof is on the prosecutors.
It is a feel good law and nothing else.

[Robb]

36. And slaves could just go to Canada!

Keep telling yourself none of this matters if it helps you sleep.

We all know better, though. The board has changed.

[hack89]

37. So why did we see such milquetoast legislation?

nothing bold, nothing of consequence. No actual bans on magazines. Colorado didn't even attempt an AWB.

Either they don't care that much about gun control or they don't think the voters support them.

It is hard to argue that the board has changed when the result is pretty much the status quo.

[Robb]

46. LOL

Why does something so milquetoast put you into such fits?

[hack89]

51. No - I am amused at people like you that think something significant has happened.

Good legislation has been passed - universal background checks are an excellent idea. But the high cap mag law is pure feel good legislation that is infective and easy to circumvent.

I just fail to see how this is a game changer. It looks more like a cautious, lets do the bare minimum possible so we don't piss off the voters.

Why was there no AWB proposed if the board has changed so much?

[dsc]

2. and if I were a prosecutor in Colorado the very first time a person was killed by one of these

magazines I would find a way to charge the owner of the company and the company with murder. And I would keep doing it until that company was bankrupt, I was no longer a prosecutor, or that man was in jail for a whole bunch of years.

[dsc]

5. ask the girl who died at the Giffords shooting no wait you can't

she is dead killed by the 20th bullet in a 30 bullet magazine (the shooter was stopped when he had to switch magazines). Any other snarky questions you wish to ask.

[dsc]

9. a bullet that would never have been fired but for that magazine

so the magazine killed her. The maker of that magazine is no less culpable than the driver of a car containing a man who robs the 7/11 is. If the driver goes to prison then so should the person selling the magazine. Let that happen a few times and we will see who decides they are must haves.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

7. You're not to be taken seriously

Thank you.

[sibelian]

13. instant fail. nt.

[naaman fletcher]

19. nice to see you believe in the rule of law nt.

[hack89]

31. Possession of high capacity magazines will still be legal

you just can't buy anymore. It is presently legal to buy them so what law did they break?

[bobclark86]

41. Can we sue Ford if a drunk driver hits me with an Explorer? N/T

[Robb]

45. Are you equating legal gun owners with incapacitated drunks?

Because if the driver is in control, but the Explorer is flawed in a way that endangers public safety, then yes, you have a lawsuit.

[oldhippie]

47. I'll pick .....

.... "I was no longer a prosecutor" to happen first.

Ridiculous.

[GreenStormCloud]

69. The "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act of 2005" would stop you. N/T

[ohiosmith]

73. This post was alerted on. The jury voted 5/1 to let it stand.

At Wed Feb 20, 2013, 01:29 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

The "Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act of 2005" would stop you. N/T
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2404320

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

NRA troll delighting in Bush-era protectionism for the gun lobby? Singing the praises of tort reform? Hide this GOP bullshitter's latest, please.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Feb 20, 2013, 02:06 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: The post makes a valid point. Leave it!
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I have no doubt that this guy is a GOP bullshitter and an asshole gun nut, but you picked the wrong post to try to nail this guy. The post is not hurtful, disruptive or over the top. It contains one sentence that isn't swearing, rude or personally insulting, and could be refuted easily. It is responding to another post that has been deleted, and I am not a mind reader and I don't patronize this shitty forum, and I have no idea what the deleted post said. I wish Skinner would shut this fucking Gun Sewer down--and I also hope he's taking note of the assholes flying their freak flags here today all over the board, who are here because Free Republic is down and they just can't live without sowing shit and barking like mad dogs. Sorry alerter, I'd shut the gungeon down if it were up to me, but this post does not rise to the HIDE IT level.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Sometimes an opinion is just an opinion. Sometimes it's based on fact. But, I see nothing in the post that could be described as "disruptive, hurtful, etc". If what the poster has to say is false let the one doing the alerting present the truth of the matter rather than attacking the messenger.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[GreenStormCloud]

74. Thanks for letting me know.

Some folks get upset by simple statements of fact.

[ohiosmith]

75. NP GSC!

[sakabatou]

3. So it's "Fuck you, we're gonna let potential murderers to have a higher body count."

[LAGC]

6. Is there a grandfather clause in that bill?

Or are all those 7500 buyers planning on defying the law through massive civil disobedience?

Curious...

[daybranch]

15. A grandfather clause

you mean like we could apply tax rate increases retroactively to those 1 percenters? sounds fair to me. Why whenever the government is robbed and the little people suffer, there is never a penaltyfor the rich and then the repugs let them do it again. we need to grandfather penalties in our system in order to make the political system and its actors accountable, don't you think? We could extend this to voting rights legislation say for Florida?

[Skittles]

10. these gun nuts are sick bastards

[apocalypsehow]

14. +1,000. n/t.

[NaturalHigh]

11. Do you have a link for this?

This is the first I've read about it. Also, a quick Google News search turns up nothing about this. I would think something like this would make the news.

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. Here, have a link:

http://www.onesourcetactical.com/coloradoassaultrifles.aspx#.USSPPFc1nvg

[NaturalHigh]

18. Thanks

These guys seem pretty intense about this.

[BainsBane]

12. Evil assholes

[moondust]

16. How about

flooding the guy's house and business with raw sewage?

[Gorp]

20. I recently saw somewhere that they're using 3-D polymer printing to make such magazines.

Combine that with a 3-D polymer printed fully-automatic pistol and no security scan will detect it. I like the concept of 3-D printing, but it deos have some insideous uses, and it will be used for them.

[Gorp]

27. Give it time. They'll find materials that are heat resistant and can still be used for 3-D printing

Even the concept of 3-D printing was science fiction until fairly recently. I still haven't figured out how ink jet printers work.

[Erose999]

23. Can you make a barrel without metal though? I highly doubt that. From what I've read about 3d

printing, none of the plastics used would come close enough to being strong enough for a gun barrel. At least not a gun barrel thats able to shoot multiple rounds without serious danger to the operator.

Also, with a 3d printer making the parts, there would still be assembly required to make a functioning weapon. Its not like you can just download an AR15 file from NRA.com and print out a ready to fire Bushmaster.


The fact is that its more trouble than its worth to DIY an assault rifle when you can just go to your local gun show and buy one off the shelf. Anyone who has the skills needed to build an assault rifle from raw materials probably does it legally and gets paid for it.

[Gorp]

29. There's an implied assumption that powder and metal are involved in the bullet.

Compressed air canisters (which can be polymer) and polymer bullets would be just as effective to produce projectiles at near bullet speed up to 300 or so meters. Most of us have used air-powered BB guns at a fair (the red star target). I don't think there's a technical problem in making a metal-free gun.

[Erose999]

33. Here is an example of what you're describing.

That technology has been around since dirt was clean and rocks were new.

[Gorp]

35. LOL! But where are you going to get the poison dart frogs from?

Besides, I don't think you could conceal that in your trousers without getting some weird looks. You would also have to be REALLY tall.

[Erose999]

38. I am sure someone in FL has released them into the wild and they're probably all over the Everglades

Or I suppose one could just use locally sourced snake venom. Just be sure its organic and free range.

[Gorp]

40. I'd guess the pythons ate all the frogs.

[Erose999]

44. Thats why they were released, as population control for the pythons.

[Gorp]

49. I doubt the poison would affect the pythons.

[SQUEE]

26. a polymer FA pistol? Sounds very much like a Sci Fi/ Hollywood plot creation

barrel, shell casings, springs, and trigger components would all be detectable..

[Gorp]

30. The technology is here now. It used to require sophisticated molds. Not anymore.

[bobclark86]

43. And it's also been illegal for decades...

They were banned in the 80s. Still banned.

Besides, NOBODY has figured out a way to make a full-auto ANYTHING solely out of plastic. Not many springs and barrels made out of PVC that could stand up to being fired more than once (or even that much).

[Gorp]

48. Take out the gun powder and replace it with compressed gas of some sort. It's simple.

The problem with plastics is heat. Compressed gas removes that problem. The canisters can be made from plastic. They've been around for decades but the cost was extreme because of manufacturing costs. The 3-D printers drastically reduce that cost. Same device, different creation process. And then there's wood. I only know how to make a rubber band gatling gun with wood, but I can make knives, swords, throwing stars, darts, and a lot of other weapons just with wood.

Stone is a little harder to work with, but it is also a deadly component in many weapons. Anyone can tie a rock to a stick and keep it in a coat pocket. But with the new technology, you could design a similar object and simply print it. Metal detectors won't find it and even full-body scanners would fail if it was on the opposite side from the scanner. Bone is denser.

No explosives detection technology would set off an alarm. Just don't put it in your sneakers. It's really silly to have to remove your shoes to get on a plane. We had an "underwear bomber" and I would have loved to have seen a GOP idiot insist that everyone remove their underwear when going through security. That would be a BLAST! (so to speak)

[oldhippie]

62. No, the problem with plastic is strength

Do a little physics and calculate the gas pressure required to accelerate a projectile of your choice to a velocity that will give an impact energy equivalent to even a whimpy 9mm at say, 25 yards. Remember the gas chamber and barrel length have to be consistent with the size of a rifle or pistol. Once you do that, calculate the stress in the walls of the chamber and show me a plastic with the tensile strength to safely contain it.

There's a reason why auto tire air tanks, SCUBA tanks, and air pistol gas canisters are made of heavy, expensive metal rather than cheap, light plastic.

But I suspect you don't have the physics to do this, so whatever.

[Gorp]

68. Well, I would have to dig out my college text books, but yes, I know the physics.

I was one class away from a third degree (physics) but the professor for one of the requisite classes was perhaps the worst example of a teacher I've ever encountered and he was the only one who taught it. I know the math. I know the other things you mentioned. I even know the optics involved were one to watch such a creation fire.

That tensile strength is easily compensated for by an increase in the thickness of the material, similar to reinforcing bunkers with concrete or lasagne trays with Pyrex. They haven't figured out how to print nanotubes yet, but give them some time. Integrate some spider silk and you've got all the tensile strength you could possibly want or need. And not all polymers are cheap or light.

The physics behind it isn't that much different from a Super Soaker. The human body has rather poor defenses from projectiles. A paintball is painfull, and even a Nerf dart can hurt if it hits the right spot. That rubber-band gattling gun I mentioned packs a pretty serious whallop. It will happen, and soon.

There was a time when plastic explosives were considered impossible, but C-4 has been around since 1956 and surpassed all expectations of capacity and performance. Synthetic materials have been taking over traditional techniques for a long time, in a similar manner as steel replaced iron as a preferred construction material. Copper is the optimal water supply line but PVC is the optimal waste line.

I spent many long nights dealing with such issues (homework, as they called it) and I really don't see a problem that can't be solved (well, other than time travel into the past - into the future has already been proven). And as I said, such guns are already in existence, just not at the fully automatic stage - and again, all that means is that you don't have to pull the trigger for each shot. It has nothing to do with how rapidly the weapon can fire.

If there's a way to kill more people more efficiently, humans have proven time and again that they will find it. And for the record, I haven't pulled out those text books in over 25 years. But I know the material and graduated Magna Cum Laude with a dual major and concentrations in physics and foreign language. I think I'm well qualified to comment on the matter.

[SQUEE]

50. I get to see and play with some fairly cutting edge stuff,,,

And I will tell you right now, there is no viable polymer, ceramic or CF replacement for ferrous metals in barrels, not that would withstand heat and pressures required for a full auto rifle much less the cyclic rates and increased temps in a pistol caliber, such as an UZI, HK MP series or Bruger & Thomet.
You might want to do a bit more research.

[Gorp]

52. Compressed gas doesn't generate heat - only the friction of the pellet in the barrel.

Bakelite has been used for decades because it resists heat (electric junction boxes, ashtrays, etc.)

With all similar materials composing the gun and ammo, it is most certainly an available technology and it was demonstrated about 40 years ago using primitive (by today's standards) polymers. It isn't science fiction - it's here now and readily available. Eliminate the explosives and all is well.

Ceramics would shatter. Scratch that.

[Erose999]

54. Bakelite has been around since the 1930's. If a bakelite barrel would have worked it'd have been

done already, especially during the WW2 when we needed more guns than we had steel available to produce. Also, as I understand it Bakelite is not well suited to 3d printing.

The friction of the projectile against the barrel is only 2-3% of the heat, but those figures are for a lead or copper jacketed bullet on a steel barrel. Friction figures for plastic/plastic could be much higher. Theres also the fact that plastics will not stand up to repeated use as well as metals. Once they're hot, they can't be cooled effectively. We've yet to see widespread use of plastic engine blocks, for that reason.

And the system you are describing is basically a souped up paintball gun or T-shirt cannon, albeit with a more lethal payload. I just don't see it becoming a problem.

[Gorp]

56. Paintball is a good analogy. Same basic idea. But 3-D printing was science fiction until recently.

The magazines already exist. It's just a matter of time before the guns come into popular use. Bionics were considered fictional when "The Six Million Dollar Man" hit the tube in the early 70's. Now they are in popular use. The Star Trek communicator was science fiction until Motorola created its first flip phone (which I have).

And to the best of my knowledge, you can't use 3-D printing with Bakelite (yet). But, as has been in use for decades, dissimilar polymers generally do not create anywhere near the friction that identical polymers do. The technology is there right now and someone will exploit it.

And what the hell is a t-shirt cannon? Whatever it is, it sounds like fun.

[SQUEE]

57. Compressed gas has been sought for a long time as an alternative.

As have binary chemical explosives, in the case of compressed gas too large of a vessel is necessary to store the amount needed for a workable automatic, also the fittings and many of the contacting parts are generating force far in excess of what current polymers can withstand. The shear forces are too much, and the polymers that can withstand the erosion, are to brittle.

[Gorp]

58. Yeah, but you don't need that much velocity to penetrate flesh.

Current compressed gas BB guns can penetrate skin up to three or four inches. You also have a lot more flexibility in design with polymers. A slight modification gives you a hollow point. A fully automatic doesn't have to fire at the rate of a military weapon. It just means you hold down the trigger and shit happens on its own. A round a second is sufficient for a mass slaughter and that's easily obtainable. I suspect higher rates are just as obtainable, but still.

[SQUEE]

66. Penetration is the least harmful of a projectiles damage causing potential

At the risk of going way off here, many other factors lead to the lethality of a round, bullet weight and shape, composition, trajectory, and speed all combine to provide lethality.
it takes aproximately 17-25k PSI to match the energy imparted to a .22LR one of the least lethal rounds out there in terms of terminal ballistics. The abilty of an aprox 5 grain BB to penetrate 3-4 inches is a far cry from a 9x19 parabellum 115Gr dumping aproximately 580-600 joules into a body.

[oldhippie]

67. I'm sorry, but I think you have pretty conclusively ......

... disqualified yourself from any serious discussion regarding physics as it is known to exist in our universe.

I don't mean to be overly snarky, but really, it's better to talk about stuff you might know something abaout to build credibility. Thinking outside the box is good, but engineering requires the physics of the known universe.

[GreenStormCloud]

71. Magazine plans are available free, online, for 3-D printers.

Defense Distributed has a CAD file. They are not a company but a group of guys that are against gun bans. They are working on a CAD file for AR-15 lowers, but don't have one yet. Their goal is to design a complete gun that can be printed and put the file online for free.


http://defensedistributed.com/

[Gorp]

72. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. It won't be long.

[kelliekat44]

24. I only hope that they reap what they are so blatantly sowing. nt

[Robb]

25. Good.

The last gasps of a dying industry.

The best that can be said of these vultures is that they know they are dying, and act accordingly.

[hack89]

39. How can it be dying when no one is proposing to ban what they sell?

if 15 becomes the limit then they will continue to churn out 15 round mags. No one is proposing to ban semi-automatic rifles so I don't see your point.

[Recursion]

42. I can't think of a case where someone shouldn't have a high-cap mag but should have a regular one

Or of a case where someone shouldn't have a newly-manufactured high-cap mag but should have one that was made years ago.

If '94 is any guide, this won't really affect much.

[earthside]

53. This will backfire (pun intended).

This is exactly the kind of over-the-top, in-your-face kind of rhetoric and precisely the kind of extremist, reaction that is turning Colorado from a purple state to a solidly blue state.

Most Coloradoans are not part of the 'wild west' stereotype or caricatured 'rugged individualist' that was once upon a time the image of this Rocky Mountain state; most of us are urban and suburban moderates and centrists.

Furthermore, the idea that someone would spend $275 or more, just for the thrill of being able to blast off thirty rounds all at once ... well, the economy for most people here is not so great and this just demonstrates how irrational are the gun extremists and how messed-up are their priorities.

After Columbine and Aurora it is my belief that most Coloradoans want some reasonable gun control -- the four bills now being considered fit into that category.

So, when a company like this takes this approach ... it only confirms to probably a majority of folks here that the legislature is on the right track.

Keep it up gun nuts and OneSource Tactical -- you do not comprehend it, but you are making the case for more gun safety laws.

[Light House]

61. You want people to shoot each other?

You want more killing just because they own guns?

This is some bad thinking.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

60. $275 apiece?

That's a spendy item.

[hack89]

64. Ten mags for $275 nt

[Light House]

65. Ooops, my bad.

I thought it was the potential cost of ammo.
$27.50 apiece isn't bad I guess.

[aikoaiko]

70. This is just a stunt. I haven't seen 30rd AR mags in stock in a month and half.

When every I get email alerts they are sold out within 30 minutes.

I predict that there were actually very few sold to Colorado civilians.

It will be interesting to see what would happen if gun and gun gear manufacturers stopped selling items to LEO in states that prohibited their nonLEO civilians from owning the same items.