TRANSCRIPT: Former Catholic Priest Matthew Fox on Ratzinger, Opus Dei & The Broken Catholic Church

[Segami]

I interviewed Matthew Fox on February 13th. This is part one of a two part interview. Here's a link to the audio podcast.

Thanks to Don Caldarazzo for doing the transcript.

I met Matthew Fox about nine years ago when we were both speakers at the first Mythic Journeys conference an amazing event bringing together writers, mythologists, psychologists, poets. At the time, I was running the Storycon Conference on the art science and application of story, which I'd founded two years earlier, and which ran for six years.

Matthew Fox was first stopped from teaching Liberation Theology by Cardinal Ratzinger, then defrocked. He has since lived an extraordinary life. But he also brings a unique point of view on Pope Benedict, the next pope the college of cardinals will choose and today's Catholic Church.



Excerpts from Transcript:

Rob Kall: OK. Well let me slow you down and get you to give a little more details on a couple of things you said. You described him as "Bringing back the Inquisition." What do mean by that?


Matthew Fox: That he fired all the Theologians, and he hounded them; like in my case, he expelled me from the Dominican Order, of which I'd been a member for 34 years, and he silenced me for a year, and then expelled me three years after that. Father Boff, the most read theologian in Latin America, he hounded him, silenced him, and then, Boff quit the Franciscans, of which he was a member for many years. The most read Catholic Theologian in Germany was a psychologist Priest, Eugene Drewermann; and he hounded him, and kicked him out of the Priesthood. So, that's what the Inquisition means, you're not free to think! They spread fear. The three of us were the most read Theologians on our Continent, and all of us were expelled, one way or the other; and so they spread fear to other Catholic thinkers. You know: "Don't think too much, and just stay in line."

In addition, by pushing Opus Dei and these Right-wing groups that are all about obedience and not about Theology, they are sending a message that "The Pope knows everything, and it's all about just obeying what the Pope and the Curia has to say." So, what do you get then, with a dumbed-down church? You get the Cardinal Law's, you get the cardinal Mahony's, you get the sexual crisis, the pedophile crisis, because you don't have men of conscience and intellect overseeing things. You have people that don't know what to do when they hear there's a pedophile Priest, they just hide it under the rug. Obviously that's no way to go.

Rob Kall: And basically, this was not just about influencing them, because they were creating whole movements, particularly in the Americas, right? Liberation Theology was a really big deal that the Pope basically (with the help of Ratzinger) killed, right?


Matthew Fox: Absolutely. Emasculated, absolutely. And it was a big deal. First of all, it was such courageous people who, for example, on behalf of the rainforest Indians in the Amazon, stood up to the corporations who were tearing down the rainforests willy-nilly; stood up to the military government of Brazil. Cardinal Arns of Sao Paulo was a real hero who stood up to the military there, who were in charge for like 18 years. And it's out of that movement that in fact Silva, the fine President of Brazil, he came from that movement, as did the President of Uruguay who used to be a Bishop, actually. You know, a lot of leaders now in South America, which has really become much more Democratic in the last thirty years, these people came from the Base Community and Liberation Theology movements.


On the other hand, the Pope, was backing Pinochet, this horrible dictator who has blood on his hands from torturing and murdering priests, nuns, and lay people. Pinochet, of course, was put in by the American CIA. In the proof of my book, the CIA under Reagan worked real closely with the Vatican to destroy Liberation Theology. That was the goal of the National Security group under Reagan, and I footnote that. That's well documented now. They had a meeting. They said "We can't destroy Liberation Theology, but we can split the church." And that's how they got the pope and Ratzinger splitting the church, and we're still dealing with some of that fallout today.

Rob Kall: Tell me a little bit more about what Liberation Theology was and is about. Does it still exist at all? What's the Status of It?


Matthew Fox: Good question. If you talk to many South American Liberation Theologians today, they'll say "We used to serve the church, now we serve humanity." So they've broadened their, if you will, their agenda, their scope; they realize the church, as now constituted under Ratzinger and the previous Pope, is impossible to deal with, because Opus Dei is now running so many of the Dioceses in South America, and of course, more and more they're forming Opus Dei Bishops and Cardinals in North America too. The Bishop of Los Angeles, the largest Diocese in North America, is Opus Dei now, the new Bishop there, who will be Cardinal soon.

Rob Kall: One thing I've wondered: is it possible for there to be a Catholic Church, a Catholic Religion, that is bottom up as compared to the ultra-hierarchical system that begins with the Pope?


Matthew Fox: That's a great question, and that's really what I concluded in my book on the Pope. It's that I think the Holy Spirit has been at work destroying the Catholic Church as we know it. That is to say, exactly how you're identifying the top down thing. It's just lost all credibility. This horrible revelation of, not just the Priestly Pedophilia, but the coverup of the priestly pedophilia by hierarchy; like Cardinal Law, like the Pope, and like Cardinal Mahony now. All this coverup, that's the real crime. To think people at the top, the CEOs so to speak, would act on this this out of moral necessity, but they didn't. They swept [it] under the rug to protect the institution.

Look at Penn State, look what happened at Penn State. Within two years they fired everyone, they took down the statue of this icon, this hero football coach, and they got moving. But here, it's been thirty [30] years since the horrible news abut Father Maciel, this Priest that Pope John Paul II was so close to that he took him on his plane with him when he went places. This Father Maciel had abused twenty [20] of the seminarians, sexually abused them. He had two wives and four children, and he sexually abused them, all of the rest of it. And Ratzinger knew about this and did nothing. After he was Pope he finally did something, but he knew about it well beforehand. That's absolute fact. And it was his job as head of the congregation, doctrine, and faith, to do something, and the Pope knew about it and did nothing.

Rob Kall: .....Now, Matthew, you talk about some big changes, but are they really possible with the powerful hierarchy that exists right now that is used so effectively to silence anybody that speaks out?


Matthew Fox: Well, that's why I have very, very little optimism about the next Pope, because they've sacked the Cardinals, the people who vote for Popes. All the men they've appointed the last forty [40] years think like themselves, which means they'll do nothing new there. So that's why I think the Holy Spirit has asked us to step beyond the structure that we know as the Catholic Church. I think that it's run it's course.

And I'm not alone in this at all. A very great Saint, a Father Bede Griffiths was a monk in Southern India for fifty years, a Benedictine monk, and he said to me shortly before he died a few years ago, "Don't worry about the Vatican, don't look over your shoulder, don't even think about them." He said, "Continue to 'plant shoots' for the new Christianity, because one day it's all going to come tumbling down, just like the Berlin Wall." And I think we're living through that day.

Every day these revelations - just this week they finally printed the documents from the L.A. Diocese. Of course, Mahony sat on them, got high priced lawyers to sit on these documents for seven years (I believe it was). And the documents just absolutely reveal that Benedict XVI knew about this, Cardinal Mahony knew about it, they did nothing about the pedophile Priests; they passed them from parish to parish, diocese to diocese, even country to country, instead of protecting the young people. The credibility is gone, and the structure has run out of steam. So I just don't think we should be putting a lot of energy into electing Popes and all the rest, I think we have to, like your program says, start at the grass roots. There are a lot of wonderful grass roots Christians and Catholics, and Priests and Sisters, who know about the essential teachings of Jesus.

Rob Kall: Now, there's an Oped in the Wall Street Journal today that says "Catholics needed a Pope for the new evangelization." What does that mean, "New evangelization?"


Matthew Fox: Yeah. You have to be careful with that word, because the Right Wing loves to play with that. But in a basic sense, evangelization means "Preaching good news." It's really the meaning of the word "Gospel." Evangelium: The Good News. So, that could be taken innocuously, but on the other hand, that's kind of a code word, evangelization, for a lot of Right wing Catholics.

That's another scary thing about [what] Ratzinger and John Paul II have done. They put wind in the sail of extreme Right wing people who get on television all the time saying that they represent Catholicism, and they don't. They represent these cults like Opus Dei, who is very powerful. Opus Dei is this movement that was backed wholeheartedly by the last two Popes, and they're secretive, and they're very powerful.

I'll tell you a story. I was in Frankfurt a few years ago and a journalist took me to lunch in downtown Frankfurt, and he said "Look out there. How buildings do you see being built?" I said, "It looks like seven skyscrapers." He said, "Yes. Every one is about finance, because the head of finance is moving from Switzerland to Frankfurt because of the Euro," and he said that "At the top of each of those skyscrapers will be Opus Dei." So, Opus Dei goes where the power is.

And in America they're embedded in a lot of media, they're certainly represented in the Supreme Court. Citizen's United happened because of five votes from five Roman Catholics Supreme Court Judges. That Citizen's United thing is about as Fascist an idea you can come up with, the idea that Corporations are people. Mussolini defined Fascism (and it's a quote) as " The marriage of corporations and Government." Well, isn't that what Citizen's United is all about? Tell me that it isn't! That's what I read in it. American's are so naïve. You know, we think that religion is someone dressed up pretty in white and blessing people - well there's a lot going on behind the scenes. And that's what I tell about in my book, The Pope's War, because we're not just talking religion here, were' talking politics.

Do people know, for example, that when Kerry ran against Bush II in that election in 2004, in June, you know, right in the middle of the election, Bush went to the Pope, went to Vatican and complained, and said, "I'm against gays, I'm against abortion. Why don't the Catholic Bishops support me more?" A week later, Ratzinger, the Pope's right-hand man, wrote a letter to the Bishops of America saying "A Catholic politician (i.e. Kerry) who does not come out against gays and abortion should not receive communion." And this just totally flipped the Kerry campaign upside-down, because Kerry is a practicing Catholic, and they didn't know how to handle it. But the results of the election show that three states, New Mexico, Ohio, and Iowa had a very peculiar percentage never before seen of Catholics who voted for a Republican president, for Bush. If just one of those states had not had that result, Kerry would have been President and not Bush.

cont'





http://www.opednews.com/articles/3/Transcript-Former-Catholi-by-Rob-Kall-130220-447.html

[Javaman]

1. When asked about a "LOST" reunion, he gave a puzzled look. nt

[Segami]

2. Bush scurried to a Right-Wing Pope crying for help

and favors like a Don Godfather.

[Ikonoklast]

17. And appointed Opus Dei members to the USSC as a payback for that favor.

Roberts is Opus Dei, Alito is Opus Dei...along with Scalia and Thomas.


The USSC is run by Rome.

The loyalty of Opus Dei members is to the Order first, then the Roman Catholic Church, then anything else, in that order.

[MelissaB]

32. That's the first time I've heard this.

Has this been posted on DU before? Are there any news links?

[Segami]

42. Types of membership of Opus Dei

Cooperators

The Cooperators of Opus Dei are those who, though not considered members by Opus Dei, collaborate in some way with Opus Dei—usually through praying, charitable contributions, or by providing some other assistance. Cooperators are not required to be celibate or to adhere to any other special requirements. Indeed, cooperators are not even required to be Christian.[5]
Cooperators may attend the educational and training activities provided by the Opus Dei. Many cooperators are relatives, friends, colleagues and neighbors of the members of Opus Dei.[citation needed] Religious communities as a whole can also become cooperators of Opus Dei. There are currently number several hundred of these communities who pray for Opus Dei daily.[citation needed]


Supernumeraries

Supernumeraries, the largest type, currently account for about 70% of the total membership.[1] The term "supernumerary" is a civil designation for an additional member of a society, for example professors, judges, actors, etc.
Typically, the supernumeraries of the Opus Dei prelature are married men and women who have secular careers and lead traditional family lives. Supernumeraries often devote a portion of their day to prayer, in addition to attending regular meetings and taking part in activities such as retreats. Due to their career and family obligations, supernumeraries are not as available to the organization as the other types of members, but they typically contribute financially to Opus Dei, and they lend other types of assistance as their circumstances permit. Unlike other types of members, supernumeraries are not required to be celibat

Admission and Incorporation

To become a member of Opus Dei one has to receive a divine calling or a vocation, a calling which requires practising the modes of the Opus Dei prelature. For this the directors of Opus Dei will have to discern if someone does have the vocation, before allowing him to be incorporated into the prelature.
Incorporation into Opus Dei is done through a written contractual bond between the person who has the vocation and the prelature.
[edit]Manner of incorporation

There are some key procedures that be followed for someone to become a member of Opus Dei:

Freedom

In order to join Opus Dei a person must freely ask to do so, in the personal conviction of having received this divine vocation. He may find this out through his prayer and usually with the help of a spiritual director.

Adulthood

In accordance with canon law, no one may be juridically incorporated into the prelature until he has reached 18 years of age.
Nevertheless, from the age of 14 years and 6 months, a young person can show his interest in the organization, and begin to participate in its activities: recollections, retreats, seminars, spiritual direction, apostolate.

Written request

The request is made in writing.

Acceptance by the prelature

The request needs to have been accepted by the authorities of the prelature and admission is granted after a minimum of six months. After a period of at least a year, the interested person can be incorporated temporarily to the prelature by means of a formal declaration of contractual nature. This is known as oblation, and is renewable annually.


[edit]Stages of membership: Admission and incorporation

Admission is granted after a minimum of six months.
After an additional period of at least one year since the moment of his admission, the person can be temporarily incorporated into the prelature (oblation) through a formal declaration of a contractual nature, which is renewable annually.
After a minimum of five more years, the incorporation can become definitive. This step is called Fidelity, that ties to perpetuity to the member of the Opus Dei. If the member wishes to leave the prelature, he needs a dispensation which the Prelate alone can grant.
If anyone, before incorporation as a Numerary or Associate is seen to lack suitability for that, he may be retained as a Supernumerary, as long as he has the requisite conditions.
[edit]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Types_of_membership_of_Opus_Dei#Cooperators

[MelissaB]

33. One link about Alito:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2006/01/30/jackboots-of-the-church/

[antigop]

54. Holy Warriors (link)

http://www.salon.com/2005/04/21/tk_4/

Cardinal Ratzinger handed Bush the presidency by tipping the Catholic vote. Can American democracy survive their shared medieval vision?
By Sidney Blumenthal

President Bush treated his final visit with Pope John Paul II in Vatican City on June 4, 2004, as a campaign stop. After enduring a public rebuke from the pope about the Iraq war, Bush lobbied Vatican officials to help him win the election. “Not all the American bishops are with me,” he complained, according to the National Catholic Reporter. He pleaded with the Vatican to pressure the bishops to step up their activism against abortion and gay marriage in the states during the campaign season.

About a week later, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger sent a letter to the U.S. bishops, pronouncing that those Catholics who were pro-choice on abortion were committing a “grave sin” and must be denied Communion. He pointedly mentioned “the case of a Catholic politician consistently campaigning and voting for permissive abortion and euthanasia laws” — an obvious reference to John Kerry, the Democratic candidate and a Roman Catholic. If such a Catholic politician sought Communion, Ratzinger wrote, priests must be ordered to “refuse to distribute it.” Any Catholic who voted for this “Catholic politician,” he continued, “would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion.” During the closing weeks of the campaign, a pastoral letter was read from pulpits in Catholic churches repeating the ominous suggestion of excommunication. Voting for the Democrat was nothing less than consorting with the forces of Satan, collaboration with “evil.”

In 2004 Bush increased his margin of Catholic support by 6 points from the 2000 election, rising from 46 to 52 percent. Without this shift, Kerry would have had a popular majority of a million votes. Three states — Ohio, Iowa and New Mexico — moved into Bush’s column on the votes of the Catholic “faithful.” Even with his atmospherics of terrorism and Sept. 11, Bush required the benediction of the Holy See as his saving grace. The key to his kingdom was turned by Cardinal Ratzinger.

[GoCubsGo]

39. LOL!

My first thought when I saw that OP: Racer X was a Catholic priest?

[blm]

3. This is a VERY important article, Segami - thank you for posting it.

I never bought into the 'coincidence' theory being pushed by 'coincidence theorists' here and on other forums when it turned out that ALL the GOP picks on the Supreme Court just happened to be pro-fascist and Opus Dei.

[blm]

10. Kicking

It's a must read. Opus Dei was ALWAYS about the rise of fascism. Poppy Bush's NWO dreams. WalMart and Opus Dei were huge first steps to gain American acceptance of NWO's fascist agenda.

[malaise]

19. Ditto - must read

My Liberation Theology cousin was murdered.

[Octafish]

58. I am truly sorry, malaise...

Please accept my deepest sympathies and sincere condolences on your loss.

My respect for those who live their lives in the service of others is difficult to put into words.

My wife and I were married by one of the lights of Liberation Theology, the late Father Arthur McGovern, S.J.

A truly great man, he wrote about the subject: "Liberation Theology and Its Critics: Toward an Assessment"

He celebrated Mass in a small chapel at the University of Detroit-Mercy. His homilies were like taking a complete college course in 15 minutes.

[malaise]

60. My cousin was a great man

He had a PhD in Divinity from Columbia U. We had some great conversations about atheism. He and I were closer than my brother and I - we were good friends and both believed in social justice. He was murdered in 1985 at the height of the ideological madness.

[Berlum]

61. Condolences to Malaise and family

Dark forces are afoot.

[malaise]

67. Three plus decades ago

We still miss him

[musette_sf]

65. Oscar Romero - Santo Subito!

[Berlum]

4. This article is a MUST READ

A snippet from the final part of the article:

Fox: "I'll tell you a story. I was in Frankfurt a few years ago and a journalist took me to lunch in downtown Frankfurt, and he said "Look out there. How buildings do you see being built?" I said, "It looks like seven skyscrapers." He said, "Yes. Every one is about finance, because the head of finance is moving from Switzerland to Frankfurt because of the Euro," and he said that "At the top of each of those skyscrapers will be Opus Dei."

"So, Opus Dei goes where the power is.

"And in America they're embedded in a lot of media, they're certainly represented in the Supreme Court. Citizen's United happened because of five votes from five Roman Catholics Supreme Court Judges.

"That Citizen's United thing is about as Fascist an idea you can come up with, the idea that Corporations are people. Mussolini defined Fascism (and it's a quote) as " The marriage of corporations and Government." Well, isn't that what Citizen's United is all about?

[xtraxritical]

20. It's all a replay of the 1930's and it's staging in Germany too.

[KoKo]

37. There's a podcast of it at the site, too. For those who prefer that..

http://www.opednews.com/Podcast/Ratzinger-Hounded-then-De-by-Rob-Kall-130214-95.html

[skepticscott]

62. Like most people, he has no clue about Citizen's United

Nowhere does it say "corporations are people", and to the extent that it recognizes that corporations and other organizations enjoy some of the same rights under the Constitution as individuals, it was far from the first recognition of that fact.

[antigop]

5. Wow! Thanks for posting that. Very important. K&R nt

[MotherPetrie]

6. k&r

[barbtries]

7. bookmarking for later.

i want to hear this.
thanks for posting

[joeybee12]

8. KNR

[loudsue]

9. A lot of DUers have been on top of this for years.

Have I mentioned I love the researchers on this site??

This is a very VERY important article, and it needs to go viral. The more the pedophiles at the highest reaches of the Opus Dei infested vatican are exposed, the more this entire world can get back into balance. The Catholic Church is EXTREMELY wealthy, and they can buy all the politicians, coups, and wars (including drug wars) that anyone can handle. They need to be cleansed from the face of the earth.

[antigop]

34. Yes, loudsue...a lot of this was known by DUers for years, but isn't it GREAT to see someone writing

Last edited Thu Feb 21, 2013, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)

about it?

Yes, you are correct...it needs to go viral.

[Berlum]

44. Could this be tied into the infamous Franklin Credit - Boy's Town pedophile scandals?

...have wondered if they are part of the abusive network that infested the more recent Penn State scandals ?

Franklin Credit - Boy's Town Pedophile Scandals
http://www.franklinscandal.com

[antigop]

48. Good question. nt

[antigop]

49. Conspiracy of Silence video here....

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/conspiracy-of-silence/

[santamargarita]

11. Excellent post, thanks.

[Liberalynn]

12. Scary

I was raised Catholic but now reject organized religion entirely.

Things like charity, forgiveness, peace, love and hope, were things they preached but rarely practiced (IMHO). The sermons were always about what vile sinners humans were and how we needed to give more money to the church.

Now to top it all of they add that whole "grevious sins" things to the prayers at mass.

I got tired of all the "feel guilty for ever having been born" lectures when the ones telling me that from the alter had done far worse things than I could ever imagine. This article shows their hypocrisy even more. Thanks for sharing it.

[Segami]

13. You are voicing the sentiments of many...

from the Interview:

Matthew Fox: You know, in Ireland fifteen years ago, ninety percent [90%] of Irish went to church on Sunday. Today it's down to about four percent [4%]. In ten years, it's dropped from 90 to 4, and they're not coming back, the young are not coming back, because they've been so put off by the revelations of the cover-up by the hierarchy of these horrible sexual abuse situations.

Rob Kall: There's an article today in the Wall Street Journal that has a graph, "Empty pews." It looks like Poland has the highest weekly Mass attendance with the least drop-off, but Italy dropped from forty-eight to thirty six percent [48% - 36%], Germany from twenty-seven to twenty-two [27% - 22%], Spain from thirty to nineteen [30% - 19%], Switzerland from twenty-three to seventeen [23% - 17%], France stayed steady at twelve percent [12%], and the Netherlands dropped from nineteen to seven percent [19% - 7%]. Big drops all around!

[Berlum]

81. Broken Faith

[Smilo]

14. "We used to serve the church, now we serve humanity."

Beautiful - no wonder we have so many "religious" (all religions) people trying to squash this movement.

Thanks OP

K&R

[oldandhappy]

15. Fox is my man!

Read his books years ago. Wondered what happened to him. Yep. The 'fear' thing.

[oldandhappy]

16. Just read it again and want to say thank you

Thank you to the reporter, thank you to the person who posted this, thank you to Matthew Fox for keeping your sanity. We need this so much. Hope you post the second part.

[progressoid]

18. Leave the Pope alone!!

[Mnemosyne]

73. Omg, haven't seen that face in awhile!

[olegramps]

21. Opus Dei has completely taken over the church as the people slept.

I have written about this for a number of years when I became aware of how they had infiltrated the church for the top down. They are nothing more than fascists with a fanatical determination to create a world wide theocracy. This secret organization has infiltrated not only the top positions of authority of the Catholic hierarchy, but the highest levels of government, courts and the media. Who would be attracted to become priests other than young men who have the mentality of neanderthals and unquestioning obedience of robots? They must accept the church's teaching without reservation, without question, without a functioning brain. No one can aspire to become a priest, let along aspire to leadership in the church, unless they support the church's asinine teaching on human sexuality, not only without question, but enthusiastic inquisitional determination.

[Arugula Latte]

22. Good for him for speaking out, but

"It's that I think the Holy Spirit has been at work destroying the Catholic Church as we know it."

This is one small example among thousands of why I don't understand how otherwise intelligent people can believe in this religious nonsense.

If the Holy Spirit has this power, why does it not prevent all the bad stuff in the first place?

It requires such twisted, pretzel thinking to buy into an omnipotent, omniscient god and then, if you believe it actually exists, not conclude that it is a tremendous A-hole unworthy of worship.

[LittleGirl]

41. I giggle everytime I see that gif

thanks for making my day.

[Arugula Latte]

43. You're welcome!

[Squinch]

53. I like it too, but it's the concept of an arugula latte that makes me laugh.

[Arugula Latte]

57. I wouldn't be surprised if someone here in Portland has made one.

Or maybe a kale one. Kale seems to be the big thing now.

[magical thyme]

47. I don't think you share his vocabulary

When he refers to the "holy spirit" he does not refer to "an omnipotent, omniscient god and then, if you believe it actually exists, not conclude that it is a tremendous A-hole unworthy of worship."

That is not the god that he believes in or talks about. Spiritual people do not believe in the "sky daddy" looking down from above, that so many here on DU like to contemptuously refer to. Yes, there are many unsophisticated, "religious" people who do believe in the "sky daddy." But not great spiritual leaders.

"It requires such twisted, pretzel thinking..."

No, it requires a more uniform use of language to understand what he is referring to. Not a "god" that rains evil down upon us, but more like the "godhead," i.e., the life force or life energy (or what I'm increasingly referring to as "the love force&quot that is at the center of and animates all being in this universe and probably every other universe as well.

Read the entire article, parts one and two. Read some more. Here is an excerpt from part 2 that gives better insight (I think) into Fox's belief system (italics mine):

"Matthew Fox: Well, the Cosmic Christ, you know, Christianity really flies on two wings: the historical Jesus, the person himself; he taught what he taught and took on the Empires etc, and he was a mystic himself, an earth based mystic from the wisdom tradition of Israel. But, the second wing is the Cosmic Christ, and that is the unleashing of the Christ Consciousness. In other words, of the awareness of what Jesus said, "The kingdom of God in within you, the kingdom of God is among you." The awareness of the divine presence.

So the Cosmic Christ is the divinity in every thing, in every being in the universe. John 1 of John's gospel says, "Christ is the light in every being." In the East they called this "The Buddha nature." The Buddha nature is in trees, it's in stones, it's in the galaxies. It's the same thing as the Cosmic Christ. It's a metaphor; it's an archetype for the utter holiness of all beings, the sacredness of all beings.

What's interesting about the Jesus take on it, of course, is that it includes the wounds in all things. That's what the crucifixion tells us about, about suffering. And of course, the Buddhas also talked about how every being undergoes suffering in this world. So it's not just pure light, it's also light with wounds. And it's an invitation, therefore, to connect to others, and to realize the brilliance inside all of us.

He goes on about the yin and the yang. Suffering isn't about punishment or an evil god raining shit on us. It is only in transcending our own suffering that we learn true compassion.

Increasingly, in my own life I am learning that most suffering seems to be a result of attachment, in almost a cause/effect way. When I can love without attachment, I don't suffer loss and, in the case of, say, a beloved pet passing away, the less I cling and the less they cling, the more easily they pass on.

And I find that the more I define myself by a higher purpose, the less I tend to cling to the physical and material, the less I suffer.

[Melinda]

50. You just shared the perfect explanation.

It is higher consciousness and faith expressed thru action. You explained this far better than I ever could. Thank you.

[skepticscott]

63. Hmmmm..so every Christian who prays, "Our Father Who Art in Heaven.."

Is "unsophisticated"? And no one who does can be a "great spiritual leader"?

Must be nice looking down your nose onto billions of people from your spiritual mountaintop, where thinking is so superior.

[magical thyme]

66. that is not even close to what I said, but way to miss the point

Interesting that you chose to attack me for my supposed superiority, instead of the poster I replied to, who lumped religion in with spirituality, and labeled all Christian believers as twisted thinkers:

"This is one small example among thousands of why I don't understand how otherwise intelligent people can believe in this religious nonsense.

If the Holy Spirit has this power, why does it not prevent all the bad stuff in the first place?

It requires such twisted, pretzel thinking to buy into an omnipotent, omniscient god..."

I do think it is unsophisticated to believe in an old man floating in the sky, alternately dumping favors or crap on our heads depending on whatever.

I do think most people who believe in God outgrow that kind of literal interpretation and evolve toward a more abstract understanding of God, and I certainly expect that spiritual leaders do.

And I don't think any of them is thinking of an old man in the sky when they repeat the Lord's Prayer. But maybe I'm giving most people more credit than they deserve.

[skepticscott]

68. Here's what you said

Yes, there are many unsophisticated, "religious" people who do believe in the "sky daddy." But not great spiritual leaders.

You were exactly labeling religious people who believe in a "sky daddy" as "unsophisticated", and you don't get a much more explicit expression of that belief than "Our FATHER Who Art in HEAVEN" (no one said anything about an "old man", btw, but nice try at deflection). Not to mention that you just doubled down on the same thing. You also explicitly stated that no "great spiritual leader" believes this, and therefore, by direct implication, that no one who DOES believe it can possibly be a "great spiritual leader".

And if you'd like to join me in criticizing the other poster, just say the word, but that doesn't make your own spiritual woo-woo pronouncements any less condescending to billions of religious believers, who don't consider themselves "unsophisticated" or unevolved.

[magical thyme]

69. many people believe in a physical old man sitting up in the heavens

For example, small children who also believe that an old man comes down the chimney and leaves them Christmas gifts, likely believe literally in an old man sitting up on top of clouds. I've also seen, over on free republic, some posters talking about meeting up with each other in the clouds after the thingie (forget what they call it) that they are waiting for.

I don't think billions of them do, and I don't think the majority of them do. And I do consider them unsophisticated.

If that makes me condescending and my more metaphorical approach to various religious books "woo woo" so be it.

I wasn't criticizing the prior poster in my reply, either. I was suggesting that poster didn't define the word god in the same way that Matthew Fox seems to, from what I've read of his writings.

But hey, whatever. You criticize whomever you like.

[2naSalit]

77. I certain;y "gpt" what you said

and I applaud you eloquence in articulating a hard to describe concept. Been reconnecting with it lately, kind of got off the pathway for a spell, and I am living a more fulfilling existence because of the understanding I have been able to gain/regain.

Good job!

[Nitram]

84. you misunderstand

Skeptiscott. You can take the "Our Father" and the "Heaven" literally, which is the unthinking approach, or understand them metaphorically, which is how they were most certainly meant to be understood. No disrespect, just an observation.

[skepticscott]

86. In the first place, the point is not how I take them

It's how the people praying the Lord's Prayer (and addressing their "Heavenly Father" in other contexts) do. Those are the people and the beliefs being denigrated here as "unsophisticated" and "unthinking". Are you saying that the vast majority of those people don't think of god as a person who hears them and can act in response to their prayers?

Secondly, I didn't make up the Lord's Prayer...according to the Bible, Jesus did (hence the name), and I'm thinking that the people who believe in him figure that he knew what he was talking about when it came to "god".

[Hekate]

78. That is a beautiful explanation

I hope that most will be able to reflect on it and come to understand what you have said. I can see that a couple of repliers cannot see past their own pre-judgments -- yet. Maybe they will in time.

Hekate

[Nitram]

82. excellent discussion

Thyme, well-written and thoughtful.

[glinda]

23. Kick and share. Super. Thanks for posting.

[AlbertCat]

24. The Broken Catholic Church

Ein Moment bitte!

Didn't we already do this in 1517?

[april]

25. I am going to read this Book.OMG!!

[appal_jack]

26. Important insights here. Huge k&r, n/t.

[PufPuf23]

27. This is the best post I have ever read on DU about Catholicism by far!

Last edited Fri Feb 22, 2013, 11:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Mathew Fox is an honest, intelligent, and spiritually righteous man and humanist.

A (spiritual) fey on those of you that would dare mention the word conspiracy theory.

I was turned on to the writings of Mathew Fox by a practicing Catholic hispanic American girlfriend in the early 1990s.

I was raised in the 1950s and 1960s without religion in the home, a gift from my parents.

The Catholic church should not be messing in American nor any other politics. The Catholic Church should concentrate on putting its own house i n order and banishing the ubiquitous criminality of the upper ranks that diminishes the genuine follwers of the Catholic faith.

A member of Opus Dei is not fit to be a USSC Justice.

My two cents.

[pscot]

28. Nail this to the doors

of every cathedral in America. Great interview. Thanks for posting.

[formercia]

29. Thank You for posting this

This is what the War in Central and Latin America is all about. I say is, because it's still going on. I've watched it happen since 1982.

[austinlw]

30. Thank you for posting this interview!

I did not come from a Catholic background, I came from a relatively moderate Baptist background (may seem like an oxymoron, but it's not). I learned to question (my dad was big on Socrates). But the questions I asked were not ones being answered in churches. I recently found a term that matched my beliefs - "panentheism". The content of this interview really spoke to me. Then when MF used that term to describe himself, my jaw almost hit the floor. I had never heard anyone (other than myself) describe themselves that way. So thank you thank you thank you. I have a new author to start reading.

[antigop]

31. The interview offers a great explanation of why the right-wing hates the arts. nt

[KoKo]

35. Excellent read...thanks so much for posting! K&R..

[KoKo]

36. A Snip from Transcript Part II ...that is so interesting for non-catholics

SNIP..........

I mean, the real issues are not about Popes, the real issues are about the survival of the planet for God's sake! You know, these are the Spiritual issues of our time, and of course, melting our war machine into real work for real people. There's so much unemployment in the world, when there's so much work that needs doing and so forth, it makes no sense. Humans have to wake up. That's what has to happen, and a healthy church would be leading the way in that, it wouldn't be narcissistically preoccupied with it's own make believe heroes, idols. "Papalolatry," I call it. The new sin of our time. When the television marries the Vatican, you have Papalolatry. And it's an idol, it's an idolatry, it's not real religion. Projection.

Rob Kall: Papalolatry. Interesting term. So, OK. You've got this vision. "Humans have to wake up, and a healthy church would be leading the way in that." What would that look like as it emerges? And there are what, 1.3 billion Catholics? How would it grow? How would it become habit and identity and recognition? How would the Vatican respond to it, or has it responded to it? I guess it's already responded to it in terms of Liberation Theology, but if, as you're saying, "It's time now for something new to emerge," how will it look? Tell me a bit about that.

Matthew Fox: One thing is, it would be ecumenical, what I call "Deep ecumenism (oecumenism?)" With that I mean, let's make out the essence, the distillation of the teachings of Jesus and Buddha and Mohammed and Isaiah and Lao Tzu and Black Elk and other great spiritual teachers of the world. I think that clearly no one religion has all the answers, we're all struggling today as a species, and so we can draw common wisdom. I've written a book on this called One River, Many Wells, where I take eighteen [18] themes that I think are common to all of humans today. It's about survival, the sacredness of creation, for example. The whole environmental issue. Meditation, calming that reptilian brain that we have. All religions teach how to do these things.

Compassion: the Dalai Lama says "we can do away with all religions, but we can't do away with compassion. Compassion is my religion." Well, cool! That's what Jesus said too: " Be you compassionate as your Creator in heaven is compassionate." So, there is a consensus out there that's at the heart of our religion. If you stay at the superficial level, then you don't get down to this stuff and you're just talking about people in white robes, or my bible is better than your bible, and all the rest. We can't afford that anymore as a species.

So, that's one dimension, the ecumenical. But of course, for that to work, you have to get into your own tradition, and say "What was the essence of what Jesus what about? What did he really teach, and what Spirit did he unleash in the world?" And that's where it gets interesting and exciting, and very, very beautiful, because Jesus was a revolutionary teacher about love and justice, and he took down the empire of his day, the Roman Empire, and he knew he was doing it. After all, his mentor John the Baptist was beheaded when Jesus was a young man because he took on the empire.
So, that kind of courage, that kind of spirit of generosity is what the great Christians through the years, whether it's Martin Luther King Jr., or Hildegaard of Bingen, the great saint, and so forth, and what they accomplished. So it's doable, and it's brilliant, and it's beautiful. The West doesn't have to apologize for the beauty that's in the Jewish tradition of the prophetic standing up to power. We have to do more of it. Much more of it. Of course when we don't, then of course we have things like the Holocaust and the horrible goings on that occur whenever humans put power ahead of love.

[burrowowl]

38. Opus Dei is evil

John XXIII did not like them, but that fascist John Paul II canonized the Francisco Franco founder of OD.

[noiretextatique]

40. i worked with Matthew briefly

at the University of Creation Spiriutality in Oakland. it's closed now, but it was an interesting place.

[benld74]

45. I just read an 2 articles yesterday that ties together

1) Current Pope is said to issue a new law. THis law will eliminate the rules ut in place by the previous Pope which state, an empty PApal seat cannot be filled for 10-15 days after it is emptied. Current Pope's new law will stop this. Reason being given, a new Pope should be on hand to celebrate Easter.
Critics of this possible new law say, not enough time will be given to those Cardinals NOT close to the Vatican who vote on the new Pope, AND too much time is allowed for those Cardinals IN the Vatican to discuss and form alliances on who to vote for.
So if a law says no vote for 10-15 days, WHY MUST current Pope leave February28, knowing a new pope cannot be chosen before Easter.
2) A Cardinal Dolan was deposed in regards to the Archdiocese of Milwaukee's filing for bankruptcy. Mostly caused by lawsuits against priests 'who were arested in sex crimes against children. When did he learn of the crimes and what was done? Creditors accuse the archdiocese, under Archbishop Dolan, of shielding $55 million in a cemetery trust.
Dolan is well thought of in Vatican, so voting early is helpful lest Dolan becomes unavailable due to future lawsuits.

[benld74]

46. Bookmarked for later. Thanks for posting

[Melinda]

51. This is a very important interview/article. Mandatory reading for my DU booklist.

Thank you for sharing this.

[DryHump]

52. My bumper sticker...

" A Good Catholic Outgrows Catholicism".

[Camballo]

85. Ha!

That's perfect!

[mountain grammy]

55. Great article, thank you. It's encouraging that the very top man, Ratzinger, is forced

to resign. If investigators would get serious with the corrupt supreme court justices, we might get somewhere. I just know there's dirt on Thomas and Scalia. I only want to live long enough that they are no longer justices.

[Nitram]

83. I'm not so optimistic

Grammy, about the long-term benefits of Ratzinger's resignation. He resigned to protect himself and the church, and to guarantee someone just like him will take his place to carry on his work.

[mountain grammy]

88. Nothing frightens me more than the power of religion over people's lives so

I tend to look for any hopeful sign. Between the "Jesus plus nothing" bunch and the remaining "evangelical" Catholics, I fear the worst, but the resignation of the Pope is so dramatic and so very rare, I'm taking this as a good sign, but, believe me, I'm also realistic.

[mountain grammy]

90. You are probably right, but there's no church without a flock and they are fleeing.

[toby jo]

56. Fox is great, a good and stable rebel.

Nice to see the people who get what Jesus was about seem to be coming into their own.

Compassion is the common thread.

Just please, keep ticklin it with science.

Great post, Segami, thanks.

[lovuian]

59. kick

:kick:

[northoftheborder]

64. Than for this post. Very worthwhile.

[smirkymonkey]

70. K&R, Excellent Thread!

Very informative and enlightening. Unlike the Catholic Church.

[amandabeech]

71. I was out driving today and pulled up at a light. The car ahead of me had all kinds of

Spanish language bumper stickers, including flags of Puerto Rico and Venezuela.

The most interesting bumper sticker to me was one for the Episcopalian Church in Spanish.

I've read that Protestantism, and I am a Protestant if I'm anything, is on the rise in Latin America.

I'm not saying that Protestantism is wonderful, because there are examples all around us that suggest strongly that it isn't, but it does have the ability to sprout and grow in positive directions in a way that the Roman Catholic Church at this time does not.

I really hate to see some of the positive aspects of Roman Catholicism, which are included in liberation theology, be suppressed. It does none of us humans any good.

[alfredo]

72. Read "Constantine's Sword" By James Carroll.

[bbgrunt]

74. thank you. this is very important!

[Overseas]

75. K&R. I remember being so disappointed in the Vatican for condemning Liberation Theology.

And yet the PR is very strong to pretend that John Paul II was so different.

[mettamega]

76. strong wake up call - Opus Dei is too close 4 R good

thank you so much for this wake up call and powerful back ground information - the Opus Dei, have destroyed the work of Pope John XXlll - they have made every effort to destroy the Jesuits - the finest minds in the Catholic Church - in the last 20 years I have met numerous Jesuits priests forced out of positions of influence throughout the Church here in American, Europe and South America - and now they are after our 'Nuns' - here is a reference on the Supreme Court and Opus Dei - http://www.mgr.org/OpusDeiInUSGovernment.html Scalia and Thomas prob. members, Roberts and Alioto under the influence - Scalia son Paul seems to be an Opus Dei Priest - goddess protect us

[Hekate]

79. What a wonderful post, Segami.

Matthew Fox is more hopeful than I am -- he sees the Holy Spirit at work, a light in the darkness that is the state of the RC church at this time.

This post is also terrifying -- the worst I have ever read about Ratzinger. I hope Fox is right: that this is some sort of End Times for the Catholic Church as we know it.

Thanks from (it seems to be) a fellow mythologist,

Hekate

[octoberlib]

80. Excellent post! Thank you, Segami. nt

[lunatica]

87. Kicking to read later

[hfojvt]

89. minor factia; errpr jumped out at me

" But the results of the election show that three states, New Mexico, Ohio, and Iowa had a very peculiar percentage never before seen of Catholics who voted for a Republican president, for Bush. If just one of those states had not had that result, Kerry would have been President and not Bush."

No, the final EV total was Bush 286, Kerry 251, so Bush could have lost both Iowa (7 EV) and NM (5 EV) and still won by 274 to 263.

Maybe that was lost in translation and "If just one" means "if just Ohio" instead of "ANY one of the three"

[KoKo]

91. Good weekend read or podcast listen for those interested.

[Fire Walk With Me]

92. K&R!

[TommyCelt]

93. Segami...a follow-up?

It would be great to get Fr. Matthew's take on the election of Francis. I for one would love a follow-up interview!