Trident nuclear deterrent 'at risk' if Scotland votes for independence

[MichaelMcGuire]

There is no alternative base for the UK's nuclear deterrent than its existing sites in Scotland, leaving it with the prospect of having nowhere to go should Scots vote for independence.

That is the conclusion of a detailed study to be published on Monday on what is emerging as a huge question for defence chiefs. They are only now beginning to face the consequences of a possible future Scottish parliament voting to get rid of the Trident nuclear weapons bases at Coulport and Faslane.

Asked during the referendum debate in the Scottish parliament last week whether the government of an independent Scotland would do a deal to keep Trident, the first minister Alex Salmond replied: "It is inconceivable that an independent nation of 5.25m people would tolerate the continued presence of weapons of mass destruction on its soil."

His comments seemed to be directed at senior British defence officials figures who have suggested that they could negotiate a treaty allowing the Trident missiles, warheads, and submarines, to remain in Scotland

{snip}

Moving Trident to the US or France would not be viable, because the nuclear non-proliferation treaty would prevent the UK from using existing facilities there and new ones would have to be built.

Philip Hammond, the defence secretary, has suggested that Scotland would be forced to pay towards the costs of relocating Trident. "These are idle threats," says the report. "Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan found themselves as independent countries with large numbers of nuclear weapons. It is ridiculous to suggest that these three countries should each have paid Russia to build new nuclear silos."

Kate Hudson, chair of CND, said last night: "Trident is at a dead end, strategically and economically. Now we can add 'geographically' to the list too, as Ministry of Defence sources have confirmed CND's analysis: that there 'simply isn't anywhere else' for Trident to go. This detailed report, based on previous government assessments of alternative locations for Trident, comes to the same logical conclusion."

{snip}

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/jan/29/trident-nuclear-deterrent-scotland-independence
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Owlet]

1. Good. The Scots never wanted the damn things in the first place

[MichaelMcGuire]

6. Your right its not wanted

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. But what if Belgium invades Scotland? Without trident, they have no defense!

[MichaelMcGuire]

4. You forgot

[ChairmanAgnostic]

23. My last trip to Scotland was wonderful

That time, I got to examine distilleries far closer than any other trip. The dislike for Blair was only exceeded by my dislike of W. I offered a trade, but no one agreed.

[MichaelMcGuire]

25. Glad you enjoyed the fine whiskeys

My three favs

Isle of Jura

http://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/ProductImage.aspx?pc=GFDOB.12YO
Glenfiddich

http://s7v1.scene7.com/is/image/JohnLewis/230216633?$product$
Aberlour







PS I'm not surprised no body wanted W but Bliar wasn't in folks good books before he left.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

28. Jura's fine, but Oban was perfect. Of course, spending

a few days there, sketching and painting didn't hurt either.

[polly7]

3. I smile when I think of an independent Scotland.

Many of my ancestors came from the Borders, reading of the raids and conflicts was fascinating. Do you believe this vote for independence has a chance of being successful? I hope so!

[MichaelMcGuire]

5. Latest polls show 51%/44% for and 39%/45% against

However the one that matters will be on the later half of 2014. As the arguments for retaining the political union I've heard haven't made me question voting yes yet.

You could argue that these are more important polls as its been when the SNP have just stated to framed what their independence means i.e. Retaining Social union, Head of State, EU market... Rather than what the opposition have framed it as. Its important because it shows what kind of independent country you'll be, your policies and priorities.









http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/298664/Poll-Now-51-back-independence
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2012/01/poll-scotland-voters-support

[Agent William]

12. You're a typical Nat; hating the English is more important than reality.

As I suspected before reading the link, the question is biased towards the SNP. However, I was also expecting the pro-independence numbers to be higher after the big roll out of the proposal. These numbers will eventually go back down towards the usual 35-45% supporting when the SNP's plans are looked at under scrutiny. Think of this as the post convention bounce that US presidential candidates get rather than a shift in thinking.

Pro-Union parties will have point out that all of Salmond's promises are based on favourable assumptions and more or less fantasies. Scottish unionism has rested on it laurels for the last century or so.

I'm simply in no mood to fight any cybernats tonight. I'll come back when I have some rest....

[MichaelMcGuire]

14. You'll have to refrain from unfounded attacks on my character.

Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012, 09:59 AM - Edit history (1)

If you want any kind of discussion with me. It is possible to discuss as many have before.
Just remember that you seem to value your own opinion more than I do yours. Its no skin off my nose to just Ignore you.

[sendero]

26. You don't have to hate the English.

... to want autonomy. But, given the way the English behave, it's not really all that hard to hate them politically.

[MichaelMcGuire]

27. 6 high profile SNP members are English

Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012, 09:51 AM - Edit history (1)

Strange for a party that's mean't to hate the English.


Looks like the SNP have gained Councillor Irfan Rabbani

"A long-standing Labour councillor who has defected to the SNP said he wanted to live in an independent Scotland without nuclear weapons and which would not send its young people to fight “in an illegal war.”

Irfan Rabbani, 49, who has been a Glasgow City councillor for Pollokshields since 2007, said he believed Scotland would be “better off as an independent country”."
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/glasgow_labour_councillor_defects_to_snp_1_2086232

Most welcome

[Agent William]

34. One can still be English and hate England as well...

Given how much of a fuck-up (I can't think of any other way of putting it) the Labour Party has been in the last decade and a half, I'm not surprised that someone would switch party allegiances from a party that is losing ground to a party that is gaining. A shrewd political calculation on mr. Rabbani's part...nothing more, nothing less.

As for English people holding positions in with the Scottish Nose Pickers, I don't have enough fingers to count the number of purported English people that hate England, be it socially or politically... Thomas Paine comes to mind. The root of all nationalism is the vilification of an external 'oppressor' country, something the SNP does quite well. Fortunately, that only explains a fraction of the SNP's support. If I hold my thumb over the blather about independence on their electoral platform, they actually come across as a decent party.

Come at me bro...

[MichaelMcGuire]

40. Still waiting for the proof. Surely you couldn't make a claim of my "Anti-Englishness" without it?

I'll also put on record (Scotland) is not oppressed nor of need to be liberated. On the plus side I guess by the attempts (I use that term loosely) to either put Uppery-Scotches in their place, with opinion pieces you've read and sent to save us poor souls. And there is a silver lining to all this It means when its became boring to moan (amongst yourselfs) about free prescriptions, free elderly care and free tuition fees. Scotch will get a break and BritNats can go back to asylum seekers and possibly the EU. Right now I'm sure it's glad for the break its getting and from the chest thumbing defence from BritNat sovereignists.

[Agent William]

41. In my opinion, Scotland has a right to the free services you mentioned,

England does not. Free (at the point of use) healthcare, free tuition and superior elderly care is North Sea oil revenue in action. My hope is that future British governments will move towards the same...the only problem is how to pay for it. Maybe outlawing overseas tax shelters? Now that would take courage. Social justice will be achieved one day in the United Kingdom...it's just a matter of how bad things get first.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

31. Well said.

You do us proud.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. Nice though this would be in theory, I'd like to see the reasoning

It says "they are even less viable now for environmental, cost and other pragmatic reasons". It's not clear that it's impossible to have them somewhere in England; just that all the potential English (or Welsh) bases are worse than the Scottish ones. I'd like to get rid of Trident; but I can't see why it's impossible to have a base in England, where the submarines already enter various ports.

[MichaelMcGuire]

8. The submarines aren't the problem

Its housing everything else. Reports seem to say it could take up to 10 years to build what's in Coulport and Faslane.

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. Thanks - that makes more sense than anything specified in the article

Time to build replacement structures could be a problem, I guess.

[MichaelMcGuire]

11. I'd rather not see the UK re-house them

But as its Scottish bases that only have the storage facilities for the missiles and the nuclear warheads.




Politically I can't see them staying for too long without major concessions. As its a major issue that Scotland doesn't house WMD and one championed by the SNP post-independence and has wide support across civic Scotland.

Could put it on e-bay?

[sinkingfeeling]

10. Go, Scotland!

[MichaelMcGuire]

13. kick

[Ohio Joe]

15. So... Scotland and the UK would not be able to make a treaty for this?

I mean... If it were really really that critical... WTF is the problem with a treaty? Don't countries do that shit all the time?

[MichaelMcGuire]

16. Joking aside

I personally think your right...

[Ohio Joe]

19. It was not meant as a joke

I will admit to a lot of ignorance on what is going on with Scotland and the UK. It just seems to me that a treaty on this would be the normal and easy solution to this... If it is even really an issue for the UK.

[MichaelMcGuire]

20. I was agreeing with you

However its final home (nuclear weapons) isn't in Scotland. As for army training etc etc I can't see why not.

[JackRiddler]

17. Unlike Iran, Nuclear Britain has a history of aggression against other countries.

Too bad this crisis is pure hype. It would be wonderful to see this dangerous power be forced to decommission its nuclear arsenal.

[truebrit71]

18. WTF are you rabbiting on about?

..."dangerous power"....don't make me larf mate...

[JackRiddler]

21. The UK is one of the most aggressive international outlaw states of all time.

Especially England is responsible consistently through the centuries for many unprovoked invasions and mass murders, even genocides. As recently as in 2003, its government sold a pack of lies about fabricated WMD to justify joining the US war of aggression against Iraq, participating in the murder of hundreds of thousands and the destruction of a nation.

[truebrit71]

22. As compared to whom? Belgium?

I'd wager that the USA is number one in that category, starting with the attempted genocide of the aboriginal American inhabitants...

Back here in the 21st century, the UK is far, far down that list...

[JackRiddler]

24. The US is number one for the last 225 years, for sure.

You're not going to find me defending imperialism under any flag. I'm not singling out Britain for more than it deserves in this category, which is already a lot.

Maybe my true point on this thread is obscure?

No country on this earth legitimately possesses nuclear weapons. None of them. Nuclear powers are illegitimate almost by definition. They are all dangers to humanity.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

29. Monaco and St. Croix

Oops, I forgot Grenada

[Boudica the Lyoness]

30. Slavery!

American's didn't want to give up their slaves. (Over the top here).

When I think of those American solders posing with dead teenage boys..like they are nothing but trophies...it makes me want to puke. The war crimes committed by Americans... the careless "friendly fire".. You have a nerve to talk shit about Great Britain!

SHAME on you!

[JackRiddler]

35. You're attempting to harrass the wrong anti-imperialist, Boudica.

It's very unlikely I'm going to object to your rap sheet of USG crimes. I wasn't suggesting the UK was better or worse than the USG as an imperialist power and as an international aggressor. In fact, the most egregious recent aggression was an Anglo-American co-production. Maybe you should read my posts again?

[Boudica the Lyoness]

32. I'm so proud to be English.

We are a tiny little country...but look what we have accomplished.

No other country in the history of the world have been able to do what we have...and we are such a little country.

Shakespeare..inventions..our music..our poetry..our rich history, our language...our humour..I could go on and on. What a darling little country.

Oh how proud I am to be English.

[JackRiddler]

36. What do you mean we?

Why do you think a playwright who died 400 years ago, in practically a different universe, belongs to you more than to everyone else who has loved him?

[MichaelMcGuire]

38. Minus "No other country" part I agree for the most part.

But in saying that I've never been too keen on the similar "Wha's like us" either.
I'm more "We're all Jock Thompson's bairns". And of equal importance in the world, I don't think I'm better, I just think I'm worth the same respect.

[rppper]

37. i drank a lot of tennants dark export.....

during my time in Holy Loch(Dunnoon).....ate my first haggis there...ate some delicious fish and chips...occasionaly the brit sub sailors from faslane would drop by and trade rounds....had a sweet red headed fwb there....oh yeah, and everything was really, really green there...and cold...it rained sideways and the sun set at midnight....but overall i enjoyed the scottish experience, the scots always were extraordinarily nice to us....seeing the castles, the highland games...a castle donington festival....i'm rambling.....

they had our posiden and polaris missiles there for 30+ years.....faslane wasn't to far from the loch....there are other places to put it....

[MichaelMcGuire]

39. Sounds like a blast, no pun intended (nt)