Number of male nurses triple; average pay: $60,700/yr. Female nurse average pay: $51,100.

[SunSeeker]

"A new study from the United States Census Bureau reports the number of male nurses has more than tripled since the 1970s. Back then, about 2.7 percent of registered nurses were men. The new study, which tracked data through 2011, finds that men now make up 9.6 percent of all employed nurses in the United States - about 330,000 men in total.
...
Speaking of wages, the report found male nurses on average make more money than their female counterparts. Full-time female nurses who work year-round earned 91 cents for every dollar male nurses earned. That's still less than the gap across other occupations, according to the report, where women earned 77 cents to the dollar men earned.

Men were found to be more likely to become nurse anesthetists, which is the highest paid nursing occupation, and were found least likely to become licensed practical or licensed vocational nurses, the lowest paid types of nursing. Nurse anesthetists are required to get graduate education, and are certified to give anesthesia and monitor patients recovering from anesthesia. Licensed practical and licensed vocational nurses provide patient care and may work under the supervision of a registered nurse. Registered nurses assess patient health problems and needs, develop and implement nursing care plans, maintain medical records, and administer care.

For all types of nursing, men earned, on average, $60,700 per year, while women earned $51,100 per year."

"Even among men and women in the same nursing occupations, men outearn women," wrote the report's author, Liana Christin Landivar of the U.S. Census Bureau.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57571330/number-of-male-u.s-nurses-triple-since-1970/

[SoCalDem]

1. No surprise here

as men enter previously "female jobs", wages tend to rise...

as more women take "men's jobs" they are often paid less for the same work, and have to work harder to hold onto the jobs..

Our society is still basically a patriarchal society. Women's work is seen as secondary/avocational/home-children-family related (and therefore of less value)

Unions are the ONLY solution, but we all know how that fight has been going for the last 40 years.

[SunSeeker]

2. "as men enter previously 'female jobs,' wages tend to rise... "

Yeah, but only for the MEN.

[SoCalDem]

4. ain't that the evil truth?

It's probably rationalized away by comparing the fact that the men (as recent entrants) are "more recently credentialed" and the women are at the top of their pay-levels earned by time on the job..

Ages ago when I worked at a bank, they would routinely hire fresh-out-of-college men and have all the "ladies" train them, and after a short time, the guys became vice presidents..the "ladies" stayed in the proof dept, the teller line, new accounts, etc.

[SunSeeker]

5. Yup, Obama said that's what happened to his mom at the bank she worked. nt

[Moonwalk]

28. Could male upper body strength comes into play?

I've no research and I'm not a nurse to know, but would they pay more to the male nurses because they can do the heavy lifting? Not that it makes it right even if so, but I'm curious.

[Texasgal]

30. Not all nurses need to do heavy lifting

I am a surgical nurse and we rarely move patients.

[SunSeeker]

45. You don't need a nursing degree to move a patient; they have aids/orderlies for that.

Ditch diggers need upper body strength, but they are not particularly well paid.

[HangOnKids]

3. As A Single Mom And Sole Provider For My Child

This fucking pisses me off. I don't work for "pin money" I work to pay the fucking bills, and my work is just as good if not better than any man I work with.

[politicat]

46. +1000 n/t

[Liberal_in_LA]

18. +1

[davidn3600]

6. Where does each tend to work?

To really compare apples to apples you need to compare their actual job titles and not just the fact they are "nurses."

Nurses in a hospital get paid differently than nurses in home health or work in an ALF or with an individual physician office. Even nurses in different areas of the hospital are paid differently. Male nurses may be taking more jobs in places that pay more money. The article even states men are more likely to become nurse anesthetists, which is the highest paid nursing occupation. Those nurses require graduate education, which most female nurses do not stay in school long enough to get.

So it's wrong to compare that kind of nurse to one that works in a nursing home. Two very different career tracks and jobs.

What pisses me off is when people say a blanket statement...like Male nurses make more than female nurses. The nursing profession is large and encompasses many different levels and occupations. The question should be, do male nurses in home health make as much as female nurses in home health? Do male nurse anesthetists make more than female nurse anesthetists?

[Puzzledtraveller]

8. Excellent points

[antigone382]

11. The article does point to different career paths.

However, it also says that even within the same nursing occupations, male nurses make more than female nurses.

And yes, men and women choose different career paths, largely because of our different roles related to childbearing and caretaking. If women were adequately compensated for that (since reproduction is a necessary service to society and I didn't go to the uterus store to plan out what my role in reproduction would be), the inequality in male and female earnings wouldn't be such an issue. But such is not the case in the U.S.

[davidn3600]

31. Are you saying women should get paid more than men because they have a uterus?

[antigone382]

34. No, I am saying that we should acknowledge what a uterus does and not punish women for having one.

Reproduction at a certain rate is a service to society. Caring for children and family members is a service to society. It can and should be compensated. Many European nations do just that.

To put this into policy terms: we should provide paid leave, either through employment or through the government, for people (male or female) who take time off related to the childbearing, child-rearing, or care-taking roles that are critical to the functioning of society (and which have been the unrewarded responsibility of women for thousands of years). I would like to see both men and women taking time off to provide these support services to their families; but whatever gender of person is doing this work, they should be compensated in some way for it.

[OceanEcosystem]

36. So, pay each mother a certain amount of money every year for having and rearing a child?

The childbirth rate might rise dramatically.

[antigone382]

37. Such is not the case in Europe, where paid parental leave is the norm.

The populations of many European nations are actually declining.

Compensating an individual for time spent caring for their families acknowledges that this is time they *can't* spend earning money that will go into a nest egg during their old age. It is one element of a sane social safety net--which all indicators show results in a reduction in population growth, rather than an increase, since one of the major motivations for having a child is to have someone to support you in old age.

[nadinbrzezinski]

50. That already happens in advanced countries like oh Sweden

The US is far from exceptional and truly can learn from others.

[pnwmom]

26. But the article also says that for each type of nursing, men get paid more than women.

So the answer to your question is that, in most nursing fields men make more than women.

"Even among men and women in the same nursing occupations, men outearn women," wrote the report's author, Liana Christin Landivar of the U.S. Census Bureau.

[HiPointDem]

59. "Each type of nursing" = 4 'types' -- nurse practitioner, anesthetist, RN, & LPN in the report.

That doesn't tell you much, & it's pretty clear that most of the gap can be explained by differences in practice settings, e.g. nurse practioners more likely to work in obstetrics or women's health, women LPNs more likely to work in nursing homes, etc.

It doesn't equate to deliberate discrimination.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/pdf/cb13-32_men_in_nursing_occupations.pdf

page 6.

[HiPointDem]

58. Since the overall gap = 9%, I expect that most of it can be explained by just those kinds of

differences.

[madville]

7. I would like to see it broken down by hourly wage

Doing it by annual salary doesn't seem accurate for several reasons. I have read studies that state that men typically work more overtime than women and women tend to take more time off like maternity leave that can be unpaid in some cases.

I'm curious to see what it would be based on hourly wage, not annual wages. I read the study at the census website and it doesn't go into detail if it was total annual income or just 40 hours a week, overtime not included.

Also, do men also exaggerate about their income like they tend to do about the size of other things j/k

[antigone382]

13. It still isn't just for women to suffer economically because we bear children.

Also, I'm not sure, but I think nurses are paid on salary rather than hourly wage.

[madville]

15. Every nurse I know is paid hourly

Unless they are management, maybe salary there but it's a small percentage. I don't know many nurses that would work salary, it's pretty much an hourly rate profession which is a good thing with the schedules they have to work.

[antigone382]

16. Thank you for the clarification.

Nevertheless, I think we need to be looking at the broader issues of economic justice that this report brings up. If even the number one example of a well-paid female dominated professions is showing significant gender differences in career paths and earnings, we need to examine what this says about the opportunities and constraints faced disproportionately by men and women as they try to make a living.

[madville]

20. I just don't like the annual earnings stat

For a traditionally hourly rate profession. If men statistically work 60 hours a week and women work 57 it will show an annual income discrepancy.

Addressing the reasons for that discrepancy is a different matter, many female nurses are single moms and can't work extra hours that the males may be able to for instance.

I just would prefer to see it broken down to a comparison of hourly wages since that is the way the profession usually pays. Even say a hospital gives 6 weeks of paid maternity leave to its employees, they are going to pay that rate out at 40 hours a week while a male nurse will still be working 50 or 60 hours maybe.

The statistics aren't black and white, many other factors involved that aren't addressed and could change the numbers.

[SunSeeker]

56. Here's some HOURLY stats that show similar inequality.

Looking just at the narrow subcategory of nurse practitioners:

Experience doesn’t have much of an impact on nurse practitioner salaries after the first five years of practice, according to the 2012 salary survey conducted by The Clinical Advisor. A nurse practitioner with less than five years of experience earned an average of $40.84, while a nurse practitioner with 20 years or more of experience earned $42.56. Male nurse practitioners earned considerably more, at $48.23 an hour. In comparison, female nurse practitioners earned an average of $42.02 an hour.

http://work.chron.com/much-nurse-practitioner-paid-per-hour-6193.html

[Macoy51]

9. Apples, Meet Oranges

FTA: “Men were found to be more likely to become nurse anesthetists, which is the highest paid nursing occupation, and were found least likely to become licensed practical or licensed vocational nurses, the lowest paid types of nursing.”

So men work harder to learn more complex skills…and get paid more for their higher skill set? Boggles the mind! The article also goes on to say that men tended to work off shifts/week-ends and received the shift differential.


Macoy

[antigone382]

10. The responses to this thread were so far off the point that I had to make my own thread

to express my frustration.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022431591

[SunSeeker]

14. It is not that "men work harder," they just get paid more.

I don't know how you can say a nurse anesthesiologist works harder that a elder care nurse dressing bed sores in a nursing home.

And as the census report says, even when you compare the same nursing positions (apples to apples), men make more.

[redqueen]

17. "even when you compare the same nursing positions (apples to apples), men make more."

Certain types of people will extend Herculean efforts to avoid allowing discussions about that kind of information to remain unmuddied.

[duffyduff]

25. It's the mentality that says women don't need to make as much because they are being supported

by men.

It's been this way forever. Things haven't changed a whole lot.

[Macoy51]

57. Really??

"I don't know how you can say a nurse anesthesiologist works harder that a elder care nurse dressing bed sores in a nursing home. "

SunSeeker

You really can not see the difference between a job that required a masters degree an one that that does not? I can learn how to dress bed sores in an afternoon, it would take me years to learn to be a nurse anesthesiologist.

The nurse anesthesiologist is paid more to reflect the additional work required to earn the title.


Macoy

[SunSeeker]

60. Really. College is easy, dressing bed sores is hard.

I guess you and I have different definitions of hard. I got a degree so I wouldn't have to do the physically hard, often gutwrenching physical labor that many less skilled professions require. I could never be a nurse, or a waiter. And everyone of these people would want their kids to have an easier life--by going to college and getting a desk job.

[pnwmom]

27. And Oranges, meet higher-paid Oranges. Apparently you missed this:

"Even among men and women in the same nursing occupations, men outearn women," wrote the report's author, Liana Christin Landivar of the U.S. Census Bureau.

[RB TexLa]

38. Did it say why?

I know many who work for hourly wages men earn more because they work more hours over the year. I've been in conversations where female employees have said it's unfair for male employees to be able to not use their vacation time because it makes them appear to be harder workers. And everytime, I've told them, it's an employees decision to take or not take vacation or sick time. No one can be forced to either take it or not take it.

[antigone382]

41. A deeper why: why do the women take vacation and sick time, but not the men?

In general, the statistics show that women are taking more time off to care for their families. This is work that must be done for society to function, but is unpaid, and that disproportionately falls on women. As a society we could acknowledge that and pay decently for it; many countries in Europe and around the world do this. If we did, maybe the disproportionate earnings of men and women wouldn't be such an issue; maybe men would take more time off, and women would take less, and the entire issue would disappear. But because we don't acknowledge this reality, women are faulted for a burden which is unequally placed on them, and then economically penalized for it. As such, our response to this unfairness is to be expected.

[RB TexLa]

44. Point taken, but they wanted to force the female

employees without children to take time off from work too claiming it wasn't fair.

[duffyduff]

49. That has little to do with it. The REAL reason is the attitude of our society and employers that

women should be paid less because it is assumed that women are married and are financially supported by their husbands. It doesn't matter that millions of women are self-supporting or have kids as well as themselves to support with no husband--it's the mentality that women don't "need" to work, and therefore they are paid a secondary salary for the same job a man does or similar work.

It has nothing to do with taking time off to stay home with kids because women who don't have kids or who are not married are penalized for being paid less. Sexist stereotyping of occupations or within occupations has everything to do with it.

[antigone382]

53. Well, having studied occupational sex segration I would say time off has a fair bit to do with it.

I certainly don't dispute that sexist attitudes are a factor; in fact it is pretty well established that to some degree they are. However, it is hard to dismiss the available statistics that many women choose professions which allow them more time and/or a less linear career path to adjust to the requirements of child-rearing and care-taking. When you control for factors like career choice and time off, the pay discrepancy decreases, but does not disappear. In general, women are disproportionately saddled with the unpaid tasks of the "domestic" sphere, and it has major economic consequences. The fact that we are saddled with this work also has a lot to do with sexist attitudes.

[rainbow4321]

19. Having been a nurse for 20-some years

I can tell you that what I have seen is that the majority of male nurses don't stay on the medical-surgical floors very long...they may start off there but they are up front from the get go that they want to work in a specialty area like the ICU or they start eyeing a management role so they can get away from the bedside.
One of my (male) managers) told me a few months ago that going into nursing was "just a way to get to where I wanted to go"..in his case, as little time at the bedside as possible, get a management 8 to 5 job while going back to school to get his masters in like healthcare management or something...yeah, he can sit in front of me and give a totally boring rant about nursing theories and and papers he is writing to hand in but, I kid you NOT, the very few times he was FORCED to go back out to the floor to do a COUPLE of hours of bedside care, he was totally fucking clueless. He had to come to me to be told how to flush an IV line...came to me also to make sure he had all the right "supplies" to change a patient's bed linen. And he admits it, too..he knows he makes an incompetent nurse and has NO skills. He will only HALF joke with a "well, I will keep them ALIVE until so and so gets here to take over".
And I don't mean to say that the behavior is just guy-related..I have seen women do the same..male or female,it scares the HELL out me when I see someone as clueless as him venture back into the trenches when they are really pencil pushers who just went into nursing with no real intention to stay in the trenches very long.

I worked with a male LVN the other day who said he was going back to school...we asked if he was going for his RN license...he said, nope, I am going to get my respiratory license so I can get in and OUT of a patient's room quick..and that way, he said, when a patient "needs" anything, he can respond "I'll let your nurse know" and be outta THERE!

I think the article does a (typical) crappy job of "a nurse is a nurse is a nurse". Break the damn categories down..med-surg vs ICU vs ER vs Management (non-bedside nurses).

[madville]

21. I don't think it's as simple as what that report shows

There are a hundred factors that determine annual income. Like my other posts state it should be based on hourly pay rate within a given specialty and in a given location.

Single moms can't work the hours a man can, maternity leave doesn't pay overtime, etc.

I would like to see a study based on hourly pay rates within a specialty and also location.

Averaging everything from LPN to Anesthesiologist across the board on gender and most importantly, annual income is not a good measure.

[ileus]

24. 100% spot on...

I posted below almost all our male nurses end up in management, or education ect...

I know as a male the last thing I want to have is patient contact. My wife ditched patient care after 10 years a few years ago, she sits across the hall from the COO sandwiched between the CFO and AR manager.

I'm happy in Clinical Engineering...

[SunSeeker]

54. We have a weird pay structure: the less you touch the patient, the more you get paid.

I have always found it disturbing that the harder the job physically, the less it gets paid.

[rainbow4321]

62. Sounds typical of the health care field!

I worked at one hospital that gave it's nursing supervisors BONUSES when they were able to whittle down each shift's staffing. In the eyes of administration, the supervisors had "saved" the facility money by using less bedside staff.
Ok, how the hell did THAT make sense???
Needless to say, the supervisors would leave us with as little staff as they could..EXCEPT when it was time for a regulatory agency to come do their annual facility inspection...then we would be given wonderful, SAFE staffing amounts, which we all knew would end as soon as the inspectors drove away on the Fridays of that week. Then we were back to skeletal staffing!

[felix_numinous]

22. Unionize.

I keep waiting for a national strike to happen.

[Niceguy1]

29. Many nurses are

union right now. And the only thing the union ensures is that there is equal hourly pay based on qualifications. As many have noted the article is based on annual salary which is very disingenuous. Equal pay for equal hours worked in the same job class with the same qualifications is the fairest system of all. What many people advocate is paying a person more per hour just because of their gender. It isn't fair to pay a person more per hour just because they take time off. No union would stand by that.

[antigone382]

39. Who literally advocates that the hourly rate be higher based on gender?

I advocate that women should not be punished because they bear children and are expected to take more time off to care for their families. That isn't necessarily the responsibility of employers to address it, but if there was some kind of decent paid leave or increasing flexibility across the board, it would mean several things: women (and men) who took on the tasks of caring for their families would not have to face negative financial consequences for doing so; men might be more willing to do the care-taking now and then, which would provide women with more free time and opportunity to devote to more demanding careers, and would allow men more time to be with their loved ones; there would be more equality for both genders in terms of their time at work and their time at home--meaning we could really get the best people in the best positions, whatever their gender, rather than the people with the most free time to devote to education and work, who happen to generally be male.

What is unfair in that position?

[Niceguy1]

42. This has been

addressed by FMLA, many union jobs it is paid. And if not the govt provides benifits to those who are off due to a pregnacy... which is a choice.

It is only fair if men are compensated equally.... I am for the ability for women to take off or child bearing and related but men must be included and provided the same benifits and compensation if we want true equality.

[antigone382]

43. It has not been sufficiently addressed, and pregnancy is a choice a man will never have to make.

Maternity leave is not necessarily paid. Neither is sick leave. I would certainly agree that men should be equally compensated and even encouraged to take time off for family care.

[Niceguy1]

48. I tned to agree

as long as it is equal in every way. The cause is not helped with the annual pay decption. Being forthright is key.

[ileus]

23. All our male nurses end up as managers within 10 years.

[Texasgal]

32. I agree..

We currently have maybe a handful in the trenches with us now, most of them have been promoted. Not many Women, although there are a few that have climbed up to management.

[OceanEcosystem]

33. If more men are gravitating towards the more high-paying nursing professions than women,

then what is the problem with them being paid more, on average, than women?

[Texasgal]

35. The problem is based on merit pay

by gender. It's wrong.

If me and Scott have the same amount of education and do the same job why does Scott make more?

[Niceguy1]

47. In articles like this one

it is due to hours worked..... Compensating women for their extra time of is a form of benifits based on gender. It's a tricky problem to solve if you are truely intereested in equality...

[OceanEcosystem]

51. But is that the case?

Are two people, with the same education, qualifications, training, experience, job responsibilities, workplace environment, etc. really being paid differently?

Or is it the case that one or more of those things is missing?

[Texasgal]

52. Yes it is.

It is consistently the case.

This article is not the only one out there, this is an age old problem.

[OceanEcosystem]

61. Very doubtful. N/t.

[antigone382]

40. The question is why are men gravitating to those positions more than women?

Is it a question of opportunity? Is it a question of disproportionate burdens for responsibilities outside of work? If so what do we do about that?

[mucifer]

55. Where I work as a nurse we have had some really bad male nurse managers.

They go in with little nursing or little management experience and somehow that is ok by the people who hire them. I have been a nurse since 1988.

I gotta say one of the nurse managers was so bad they demoted him. He actually is a great staff nurse, just a terrible manager. The other I think was hired to look pretty. He is still there.

Throughout the years in my personal experience, the male nurses always float to the top.