I have never considered the flag as something holy

[quinnox]

like many of my fellow Americans apparently do. I don't understand why some people, and its usually right wingers and freeper types (but not always), seem to regard the flag as something holy or sacred. It is just a symbol and not a holy thing that can be "desecrated".

[think]

1. Whether a person has the right to burn a flag or not is irrelevant

what is relevant is what reaction such an event will have and whether the reaction helps or hinders your cause.

JMO

[msongs]

3. yes indeed, let others determine your course of action for standing for what you believe nt

[think]

6. You can completely disregard the people to whom you are sending your message to

and they won't see the forest past the tree. that's all I'm saying

Has flag burning ever got people to think more about the issues being discussed? Or does it always and inevitably boil down to a discussion like this which has nothing to do with the problems being represented by the burnt flag?

burn all the flags you want but your message begins and ends there.

JMO

[think]

11. What are your thoughts of flying the American flag in "distress"

http://www.fox11online.com/dpp/news/local_wluk_crivitz_upside_down_flag_supporters_gather_080620092056_rev1

(The video in this link is a real example with discussion on both sides. Less than 2 minutes long.)

I personally think it would be more fitting and at least more thought provoking as it follows flag etiquette and shows the person not as the enemy but as the victim as it should be.

Although if one was to fly the flag in distress I would hope they'd understand the circumstances in which they chose to do so and would be prepared to respond when asked.

Again JMO.

[jwirr]

9. Yes, when I posted that it was a mistake that is what I was thinking about. Having lived through

the 60s I saw the movement lose their support from many because of the burnings. People started supporting occupy because they were using classic non-violence theory. That did not include destroying anything.

[TheMastersNemesis]

2. Just A Symbol

The flag is only a symbol. The GOP has really sullied it. They wave the flag while the murder people with their policies. Starving women and children and attacking the less well off is unAmerican and unpatriotic. Rather than burn the flag we need to burn the GOP at the polls in November. The death of the GOP would be a plus. This dinosaur needs to join them in history.

[Cleita]

4. I think it goes back to ancient times when destroying an enemy's banners and standards, when

you defeated them, was considered a desecration by the defeated because the bodies of their dead were also being desecrated. That incident of Marines peeing on dead Taliban has some very ancient roots. Apparently, since the Taliban didn't have flags or other national symbols, their bodies were desecrated instead. Also, doing bad stuff to the Koran is in the same venue. When we do it to ourselves, I guess it pisses off a lot of people who don't feel the same as the burners do. It's my shot at an explanation anyway.

[bahrbearian]

5. Of couse it is

?w=468

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. So if you want to burn it, I guess you have that right. And I on the other hand have the right to

call a flag burner a piece of shit for the act. That puts us both squarely within our rights.

I don't think it's "holy", but it's an important symbol I spent a decade of my life serving.

So burn it if you must, but do not ever ask me for support for whatever cause motivates you to do so.

[Skwid]

25. I spent a decade of my life defending the Constitution...that's what was in the oath I took,

it didn't say anything about flags.

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. All I can say to that is I would NEVER tell a Fellow Veteran how they should feel about the flag...

and Good to Know Ya.

[Skwid]

33. Thank you, I'm glad to know you wouldn't ever call a flag burner a piece of shit.

Oh, wait, you just did...???????

[jody]

8. Once upon a time, before modern communication, the flag marked the presence of a king or other

leader of a group.

When that flag fell or left the battle field it was a signal for troops to retreat or flee.

Much more to the meaning of a flag than that but that one fact is important.

In the War between the States, it was not by chance that the "Battle Cry of Freedom" written in 1862 by American composer George F. Root had the lyrics "Yes we'll rally round the flag, boys, we'll rally once again, Shouting the battle cry of freedom,"

[frazzled]

10. Then what meaning does burning it have for you?

Of course the flag is just a symbol: it's the symbol that stands for the country "The United States of America." Burning it is also symbolic of something. (It's not just a meaningless action; otherwise, why do it?). It's The question is: what does the burning mean? And is that meaning what you want to communicate to the 99% of Americans?

[jody]

12. Shame on you for implying that a few of the 99% view burning the American Flag with distaste. nt

Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012, 11:18 PM - Edit history (1)

[frazzled]

28. Same what?

All I can say is ... "huh"? Could you perhaps try that again, expressing yourself a little bit more clearly?

[bahrbearian]

14. And wraping your self in it means your a Patriot

[frazzled]

29. No.

I asked a question. I still haven't gotten an answer.

[backscatter712]

13. Tierra y Libertad posted this quote from Arundhati Roy:

"Flags are bits of colored cloth that governments use first to shrink-wrap people's brains and then as ceremonial shrouds to bury the dead."

[marmar]

21. Excellent summation by Arundhati Roy.

nt

[Luminous Animal]

30. +1

[libinnyandia]

15. It is amazing how many people who are opposed to burning the flag support flying the

confederate flag, which to me symbolizes treaason. Those who flew that flag nearly destroyed this country.

[backscatter712]

20. There's a flag that absolutely needs to be burned and defiled.

The Confederate Battle Flag is indeed a symbol of treason, bigotry and slavery. I think of it the same way as I think of the swastika.

[MineralMan]

16. The point is that many, many people do see it as a more or less

sacred symbol. Those many include many who are part of the 99%. To alienate that group by burning a flag is just plain stupid. Without the support of millions of people, OWS will not accomplish the many valid goals they are trying to accomplish.

Why would anyone alienate the very people they want standing with them?

That's the reason that flag burning was so badly thought out. It's not the flag, per se. It is the impact the act has on so many people who might otherwise make common cause with the Occupy movement.

Like it or not, the flag has a strong emotional meaning for many people. Not all of them are right wingers, by any means. Everyone who has lost a father, son, or daughter in the military. People who still revere what this country is supposed to stand for.

Burning the flag is a bad idea if you hope to convince the 99% to join with you.

[joshcryer]

27. The only people perpetuating the alienation are those making a big deal out of it.

This is perhaps the dozenth time a flag was burned at an Occupy protest. Why all the commotion now?

I agree that the flag burning was "badly thought out." They had just been razed by the police, had tear gas shot at them, rubber bullets, whole nine yards. Emotions were high and I think the actors didn't think it through. But that doesn't make them bad, nor does it make the movement bad, nor does it make the act of burning the flag bad, nor does it prevent the 99% from joining you.

[Luminous Animal]

31. There are plenty of those who will see the trees instead of the forrest.

And, no not EVERYONE who has lost a loved one in the military values flag over values.

[rustydog]

17. It is a symbol of this country like a corporate logo identifies Shell, Chevron etc

Burning the flag is protected free speech. As offensive a tactic as it is, it should be one that is defended at DU because it is way too easy to defend the "Freedoms" we agree with.

[Skwid]

26. But burning is the official, approved way to dispose of an old one. So whether it's 'good' or 'bad'

depends entirely on what the folks doing the burning are thinking, right?

[sabrina 1]

18. You are right. I also associated this obsession with the flag with rightwingers. Certainly was

the far right who did so during the Bush years. It's a symbol, which I recall telling righties over and over again, back then, that is all.

I am always suspicious of those who try to make it a holy, sacred thing. And I remember during the Bush years, those who did so, rarely said a word about the destruction of what it represented.

[MineralMan]

22. It's not only associated with right-wingers, though.

Many others also hold the flag in high regard. I do. My flag is out for all national holidays. It's the only one on my block. My block holds lots of right-wingers, but my flag is the only one flying on July 4 and Veterans Day and all the other holidays.

I was brought up to respect the flag as a symbol of our country. The country, as defined in the Constitution. Not how the country behaves from time to time, but the principles on which it was founded. So, I fly the flag. I stand when it passes, and I salute it, the same as I did during my enlistment in the USAF.

I'm not a right-winger. I'm an American. I still hope for the nation to live up to the standards established for it. I still work toward that goal. I will continue to do that until I die. The flag symbolizes not the nation from year to year. It symbolizes what the nation should be and what it was founded to be.

You can hold it in disregard if you wish. You can burn it if you wish. Both are part of the freedoms the nation was built on. I will not do that, though. I will hold it high, fly it when appropriate, and stand and salute it. It represents some very high ideals...ideals we have not met yet.

That's my opinion of the flag. Yours might differ. That's also part of the freedoms we all have. I will not give up my love for this country and my dreams for what it can and should be. You can do as you please.

[sabrina 1]

24. Did I say I 'hold it in disregard? No, didn't think so, but thanks for trying to put words

in my posting box.

What I said was that only Rightwingers in my experience, have this obsession with the flag, and they have it above all else, remarked upon by many Democrats back during the Bush years btw.

They use it to try to distract from other far more important issues eg, as is being done now, by them btw on Fox and elsewhere. It is to be expected and nothing to worry about. Those who are attempting to use that insignificant event to try to destroy a Global movement will not succeed, they never supported it to begin with, never would, never will yet it exploded around the Globe without them, and will continue to do so.

The flag is a symbol, people though, are and always have been more important than symbols especially when a symbol is used to oppress those people.

[gulliver]

19. People's feelings are important. nt

[HopeHoops]

23. It isn't - well, unless you have mice or moths.