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meegbear

(25,438 posts)
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:04 PM Mar 2013

The Rude Pundit: "Deserves" Has Nothing to Do With Rape

The Rude Pundit went to the theater in New York City recently with a group of college students, men and women. The play, which was about college students, ends with the terrible, manipulative female character getting raped onstage by a man she had sex with the night before. While the title of the play doesn't really matter, it kind of does matter that the play was written by a male.

That's because of the discussion the Rude Pundit had with the students the next day, which is one of the more disturbing ones he's had in a while. Their minds were blown by the end, they said. And then one student proclaimed that the female character "deserved" to get raped. This student was a woman, and it prompted several of the men to join in, agreeing that the rape was merely just desserts for the character because she might have lied about a previous rape.

Trying to bring the discussion back from this flat declaration, the Rude Pundit wondered aloud if the playwright was actually trying to elicit this response and that it should lead us to question why certain of them felt that way. No, they said, pretty much as a group. The character deserved to be raped because she was such a "bitch." When asked if they felt this was true in real life, if sometimes women "deserved" to be raped, they did not draw a line. If a woman acted like the character in the play, they said, then yes, it would essentially be karma raping her through an angry man.

The Rude Pundit thought about this conversation as he followed the story of Zerlina Maxwell this weekend. Maxwell is a writer and activist who was on Sean Hannity's Fox "news" program on Tuesday last week. The subject was about getting women to buy guns in order to prevent rape. Maxwell took the position that this was the wrong message, that we shouldn't put the onus for rape prevention on the victims, but on, you know, the male rapists through education and a shift in cultural attitudes. In a great line, Maxwell said, "If firearms were the answer, then the military would be the safest place for women, and it’s not." Guns are not society's pacifier, but, man, the right desperately believes they are.

Whenever you dare to question anything about almighty gun ownership, you will shake the monkey cage and you will have shit tossed at you by the monkeys. The Rude Pundit knows this, having once been on the receiving end of a barrage of hate-tweets from people whose guns are their wubbies, their teddy bears, their security blankets. He received threats of violence, even a promise or two to kill him, but no one threatened to rape him. Not once.

Now, to be as fair as one can be to the debased cowards - the people who masturbate in glee at their anonymity and to the level and quality of their viciousness - who attacked Maxwell, she was talking about rape, even talking about the fact the she herself was a victim of rape, so the subject was germane. But, you know, saying, as one Twitter asshole did, "You need to be gang raped to get you some common sense. You stupid bitch," is an example of how scared the writer actually is, not of having his guns taken away, but of losing his power, his former privilege of sex and of race (which used to make up in part for the lack of economic power), to a smart black woman. Indeed, the mentality of the respondents to Zerlina Maxwell (and to Amanda Marcotte before her) is pretty much what we've learned is the mentality of rapists.

It's kind of sadly expected, as so many things are, that conservatives, like Sean Hannity, even (who Maxwell said was compassionate and kind off-screen), who preach personal responsibility as the solution to society's ills can't seem to get their heads around the idea that teaching young men things like "women are not either whores or your mom" falls into that category. For them, the personal responsibility here is buying a gun. The notion that guns are the solution makes it so that an unarmed woman who is attacked is more or less being told that she is at fault for not carrying a gun. That's pretty much the same as saying she deserved it.

The attitudes of the college students are not really that different than they were 15 years ago, when the Rude Pundit was talking about A Streetcar Named Desire with another group in another city. Young men and women there all agreed: Blanche DuBois was asking for it when she was raped by Stanley Kowalski. The Rude Pundit desperately tried, as he did a couple of weeks ago, to convince them that there is no such thing. They didn't believe him then. They don't believe him now.

Zerlina Maxwell is a public figure who won't be silenced by lunkheads tossing crap at her on Facebook, although it's right to be appalled and perhaps a little scared. But you gotta wonder: how many of the women in those groups of students were silenced by the threat of deserving a rape?

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2013/03/deserves-has-nothing-to-do-with-rape.html

49 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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The Rude Pundit: "Deserves" Has Nothing to Do With Rape (Original Post) meegbear Mar 2013 OP
Well I wonder how that defense would work... Kalidurga Mar 2013 #1
It works pretty well with certain juries. Hell, read some Assange or Polanski msanthrope Mar 2013 #3
The "she was a prick teaser" defense works really, really well. Warpy Mar 2013 #25
I remember a case where the victim was murdered... Kalidurga Mar 2013 #28
Wow. Just wow. Matariki Mar 2013 #2
Hang around til some infamous person is arrested and/or convicted of a crime. Iggo Mar 2013 #5
Yeah, I know. Those posts are really depressing. Matariki Mar 2013 #9
+1 n/t lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #12
It's the same all over Saviolo Mar 2013 #26
I no longer remain silent...No one, no one 'deserves' to be raped duhneece Mar 2013 #44
Ask the RP if he could address this very similar boston bean Mar 2013 #4
That Thread Really Opened My Eyes About The Rank Misogyny Here On DU. Paladin Mar 2013 #11
Rank misogyny? lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #14
And Some Posters Were Pushing As Much Blame On The Woman As Possible..... Paladin Mar 2013 #20
As the only one who survived the events... lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #24
Kindly Do Not Misconstrue My Comments, OK? Paladin Mar 2013 #30
Agreed. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #37
It's an interesting compare and contrast. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2013 #38
Rape culture gollygee Mar 2013 #6
I've been reading "Transforming a Rape Culture." CrispyQ Mar 2013 #42
Powerful writing but sad that in this day and age appleannie1 Mar 2013 #7
Well that's the most depressing thread of the day. Nye Bevan Mar 2013 #8
Representative sample? It is and it isn't. People's attitudes are very malleable. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #39
Iggo makes a good point. We even see this attitude here Matariki Mar 2013 #10
+1 nt freedom fighter jh Mar 2013 #22
I only saw the film (with Brando)... awoke_in_2003 Mar 2013 #13
The change needs to start at home GeoWilliam750 Mar 2013 #15
OMG, I think our society is actually devolving with it's treatment of women lark Mar 2013 #16
It's like saying someone "deserves" to be murdered because they are such an smirkymonkey Mar 2013 #36
When I read these depressing accounts, CrispyQ Mar 2013 #45
I disagree - I think for the first time men are being honest Taverner Mar 2013 #47
Why DOES it matter that the above play was written by a male? Bicoastal Mar 2013 #17
You can't count on having any of that information. lapislzi Mar 2013 #48
You think the implication is clear? Bicoastal Mar 2013 #49
Rape as "retribution" dr.strangelove Mar 2013 #18
I'm bothered by the idea that rape is worse than murder gollygee Mar 2013 #19
Arguably: Saviolo Mar 2013 #27
I think it's individual how people deal with that. gollygee Mar 2013 #29
Absolutely Saviolo Mar 2013 #32
I'm just trying to present another perspective gollygee Mar 2013 #33
I can't believe anyone would think Blanche DuBois deserved to be raped... joeybee12 Mar 2013 #21
This one line says it all about guns LiberalEsto Mar 2013 #23
there's plenty of those gun-wuvving monkeys on DU Skittles Mar 2013 #35
Amazing indeed malaise Mar 2013 #31
Rape culture never went away. geek tragedy Mar 2013 #34
sigh DonCoquixote Mar 2013 #40
There's a not-so-subtle streak of sadism in American culture. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #41
Punishment fetishists abound. Iggo Mar 2013 #46
This is why we joined others to rise up with One Billion Rising duhneece Mar 2013 #43

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
1. Well I wonder how that defense would work...
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:10 PM
Mar 2013

Your honor she deserved it she was manipulative.

 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
3. It works pretty well with certain juries. Hell, read some Assange or Polanski
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:13 PM
Mar 2013

threads here for rape apologia....

Warpy

(114,615 posts)
25. The "she was a prick teaser" defense works really, really well.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 06:48 PM
Mar 2013

After all, boys will be boys and can't be expected to control their sinful urges.

Never mind that rape is a crime of humiliation, control and violence, not sex. A lot of juries haven't caught on.

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
28. I remember a case where the victim was murdered...
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:16 PM
Mar 2013

The defense was she liked it rough. I believe he did serve time for the crime though. But, I don't see how it could have possibly been enough.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
2. Wow. Just wow.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:11 PM
Mar 2013

That is so fucking depressing. Great writing from Rude Pundit, but damn, depressing. You'd think that attitudes were evolving with young people at least.

Iggo

(49,928 posts)
5. Hang around til some infamous person is arrested and/or convicted of a crime.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:16 PM
Mar 2013

Then watch the fun as the progressives on this board start to call for the prison rape of said person. You know, because he deserves it and well, he's a bad person.

Evolving attitudes? Hmm.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
9. Yeah, I know. Those posts are really depressing.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:42 PM
Mar 2013

I always alert on them. With mixed results.

Saviolo

(3,321 posts)
26. It's the same all over
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:01 PM
Mar 2013

Threats of "pound you in the ass" federal prison make me literally sick to my stomach. It's debasing to the person being threatened, and there's a healthy dose of homophobia in there, too. It really is rather terrible.

duhneece

(4,510 posts)
44. I no longer remain silent...No one, no one 'deserves' to be raped
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 11:58 AM
Mar 2013

Not the child rapist. Not the child murderer. No one.

 

Paladin

(32,354 posts)
11. That Thread Really Opened My Eyes About The Rank Misogyny Here On DU.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:46 PM
Mar 2013

Depressing as hell, how certain posters are ready to blame a woman for a series of tragedies, without anything even close to all of the facts being available, as yet. Some really twisted thinking at work there, particularly on a site where progressive values are supposed to be championed.

Great column by the Rude Pundit; hope it gets wide circulation.
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
14. Rank misogyny?
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:07 PM
Mar 2013

Most of the posters were doing a Nelson laugh because a white guy with guns got killed.

 

Paladin

(32,354 posts)
20. And Some Posters Were Pushing As Much Blame On The Woman As Possible.....
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:45 PM
Mar 2013

....without anything in the way of solid details about the incident.
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
24. As the only one who survived the events...
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:59 PM
Mar 2013

Her husband shot her male friend and himself. The poor woman.

Just maybe there is a tiny bit of tragedy involved for the dead guys too.

 

Paladin

(32,354 posts)
30. Kindly Do Not Misconstrue My Comments, OK?
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:44 PM
Mar 2013

The two deceased parties and their survivors are due a full measure of sympathy. It's a God-awful tragedy for all concerned.
 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
37. Agreed.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 08:37 PM
Mar 2013

But there's a distinct lack of sympathy for the dead individuals concerned. That thread is VERY weak evidence of misogyny, assuming you mean what the dictionary says it means.

 

lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
38. It's an interesting compare and contrast.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 08:40 PM
Mar 2013

Last edited Mon Mar 11, 2013, 11:00 PM - Edit history (1)

There's a lot of "getting what they deserved" vitriol in that thread, but in that case the people involved apparently deserved to die.

... Well, two-thirds of them anyway.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
6. Rape culture
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:25 PM
Mar 2013

And for those people who think it's an attack on men, no, the concept of rape culture is not an attack on any specific people, and it's much bigger than that. It's everyone, what we've been taught, what we expect. It is, as it says, our culture. As The Rude Pundit says, it was a woman who started this conversation. We need to, as a society, re-examine our views on rape.

CrispyQ

(40,970 posts)
42. I've been reading "Transforming a Rape Culture."
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 11:53 AM
Mar 2013

Outstanding. It should be required reading in high school.

appleannie1

(5,457 posts)
7. Powerful writing but sad that in this day and age
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:26 PM
Mar 2013

so many people still feel that women 'deserve' to be raped because no one ever 'deserves' such violation.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
8. Well that's the most depressing thread of the day.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:37 PM
Mar 2013

College students in 2013 with a 1950s outlook. I only hope this was not a representative sample.

Matariki

(18,775 posts)
10. Iggo makes a good point. We even see this attitude here
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 04:45 PM
Mar 2013

The attitude of rape as a fitting 'punishment' for certain people. On DU it comes in the form of prison rape jokes. This attitude just needs to stop. It needs to change.

 

awoke_in_2003

(34,582 posts)
13. I only saw the film (with Brando)...
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:03 PM
Mar 2013

and I don't know how closely it followed the play. When I saw it I thought Stanley was an animal in desperate need of a cage.

GeoWilliam750

(2,555 posts)
15. The change needs to start at home
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:11 PM
Mar 2013

It needs to start with a father's direct daily involvement as a positive role model in how to treat others, and that ill treatment of those weaker than oneself is not to be tolerated.

Sometimes, I wonder a bit on something that may be highly controversial, and I toss this out as a point for debate. Men are far less involved in the rearing of their sons, leaving so much more to mothers. Having watched many sons' mothers over time, most do not seem to believe that ANY girl/woman is good enough for her son. Although odd, I sometimes wonder whether some of young men's attitudes toward women may come from their own mothers.

In our house, my daughter is the most pro-women's rights, followed by me, and then my wife. Sometimes it really surprises me.

lark

(26,081 posts)
16. OMG, I think our society is actually devolving with it's treatment of women
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:13 PM
Mar 2013

I'm really shocked beyond belief that young NY college women think that another woman deserves to be raped just because she's "a bitch"? So, sarcasm is reason enough for your life to be ruined if you just happen to have double XX's in your chromosones? OMG & WTF! Were there women who disagreed, but were afraid of what might happen if they voiced that?

In my late 20's I got involved in rape crisis counseling through a friend, but even as a teenager
neither I nor my friends had this attitude - including males. How could we have come to this point?

I'm just sick at my stomach right now.


 

smirkymonkey

(63,221 posts)
36. It's like saying someone "deserves" to be murdered because they are such an
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 08:24 PM
Mar 2013

incredible asshole. Nobody "deserves" to be a victim of such ugly, violent crimes. These attitudes are sickening and depressing.

CrispyQ

(40,970 posts)
45. When I read these depressing accounts,
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 12:01 PM
Mar 2013

I like to delude myself that it's a backlash to the dying patriarchy, but I don't believe that. Misogyny is getting worse. We are a species at war with itself.

 

Taverner

(55,476 posts)
47. I disagree - I think for the first time men are being honest
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 01:02 PM
Mar 2013

And we are seeing the reality behind the veil

Which tells me, anti-rape education HAS to exist in our schools

Bicoastal

(12,645 posts)
17. Why DOES it matter that the above play was written by a male?
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:15 PM
Mar 2013

Is the implication that this play is pro-rape, or that the rape of the villainous female character was meant by the playwright to be poetic justice of some kind? It's very possible that this was not what was intended at all, even if it's what the college students in the audience came away with. After all, it's pretty obvious to me that A Streetcar Named Desire isn't the story of a Woman Who Gets What's Coming To Her...

Not to be too reactionary, but serious-minded male dramatists should be able to put rape (and murder, torture, incest, etc) into their work without being labeled as apologists or advocates of these terrible things. I should like to know more about the playwright and especially the play before making that kind of judgment on him.

lapislzi

(5,762 posts)
48. You can't count on having any of that information.
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 01:51 PM
Mar 2013

You have to make your judgment based on the words and actions that take place on the stage. The social context is useful, but the play should stand on its own merits--or lack thereof.

Regardless of the gender of the playwright, I think the implication is clear that the rape was intended to serve as some form of poetic justice.

Bicoastal

(12,645 posts)
49. You think the implication is clear?
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 02:50 PM
Mar 2013

Based solely on a few choice sentences by one anonymous third party? You know next to nothing about the work, and yet your opinion is already formed? And you start your post with a statement about judging a work based on "the words and actions that take place on the stage?"

I am firmly against context-free judgement of art. This is EXACTLY the kind of rush to judgement that gets Huckleberry Finn banned from schools for using the N-word--and yes, in that case and others, the social context IS important.

dr.strangelove

(4,851 posts)
18. Rape as "retribution"
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:30 PM
Mar 2013

Most scholars evaluate criminal law as having one or more of the following purposes: Retribution, deterrence, rehabilitation and isolation for the protection of society. The last three are fairly universally accepted, but the first one garners a lot of debate. If we assume for a moment that Retribution is a valid purpose for criminal law (and I do not agree with this, but am assuming it for the purpose of my thought herein) is rape ever a valid retribution. For me, I think rape is probably the worst thing a human being can do to another, even worse than murder. But I am in the minority on that view. Most agree that murder is worse than rape. But the US allows state sanctioned murder for certain crimes. While I am opposed to state sanctioned murder, I wonder how the people would feel about state sanctioned rape. Why not sentence someone to 40 rapes over the course of 6 months for criminal activity. Obviously it is lunacy, but I find if you are indicating that someone can "deserve" rape, can the government use it as a sanctioned criminal punishment. Instead of prison for stealing, order sexual assaults on a person to punish them. The idea is as crazy to me as suggesting a person can "deserve" to be raped. Anyway, it has been a long day and I am sorry this was not put an eloquently as I would have liked, but I hope you get my point.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
19. I'm bothered by the idea that rape is worse than murder
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:39 PM
Mar 2013

I understand you mean to say that rape is horrible, but there used to be this expectation that women be virgins until marriage and that if they were not, even due to rape, that they were "ruined" and might as well be dead. The idea that rape is worse than murder feels to me to be in that same zone, and it really bothers me for that reason.

Also, I am equally opposed to capital punishment, but I don't think you can compare wanting one person to rape another to someone being given a lethal injection. No one is getting sexual gratification from injecting someone with something to kill them. (At least I hope not! And it wouldn't be the norm anyway.) Someone has to do the raping. Unless you'd give people an ultrasound probe, but that's only forced on women who don't want to be pregnant. I guess in that way anyway, it actually is being used as punishment.

Saviolo

(3,321 posts)
27. Arguably:
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:07 PM
Mar 2013

The victim of a murder is finished with his or her suffering right away. It will be more difficult for those people around the victim who now have a hole in their lives, but the victim no longer feels anything. A rape is something that continues to cause damage, pain, and torture to the victim for years and years, perhaps to the end of that person's life.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
29. I think it's individual how people deal with that.
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:32 PM
Mar 2013

My grandmother was raped as a teenager and I'd say that was maybe true for her, but she was also forced to give birth as a result of the rape when she wanted an abortion, and then forced to give the baby to a relative to raise instead of being able to raise it herself, and I think those things were more difficult for her than being raped.

But we've had people here at DU who have had a wide variety of experiences as far as how they processed and dealt with it after the fact. And even my grandma was glad to be alive.

And people suffer a great number of tragedies that are difficult to recover from and can cause pain for the rest of their lives, but only with rape do I hear that they'd be better off dead.

Saviolo

(3,321 posts)
32. Absolutely
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:48 PM
Mar 2013

Different people will all recover (or not) in entirely different ways from one another. And I also agree that I don't think they'd be better off dead, but if you take rape as a crime separate from murder, it's arguable that rape is the worse crime, not that the rape victim is better off dead.

It's all academic on my part, as I've never experienced either thing in any way shape or form, so, it's really just playing devil's advocate. I do think that there's far too much blaming the victim going around. Say a girl deserved to be raped because of her actions... saying a man deserves to be raped in prison because of his actions, saying that someone deserved death... none of it sits right with me.

gollygee

(22,336 posts)
33. I'm just trying to present another perspective
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:51 PM
Mar 2013

on this idea that rape is worse than murder, and how it sounds to me.

And I agree re the blaming the victim. It's all over.

 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
21. I can't believe anyone would think Blanche DuBois deserved to be raped...
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:52 PM
Mar 2013

No one deserves to be raped.

 

LiberalEsto

(22,845 posts)
23. This one line says it all about guns
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 05:56 PM
Mar 2013

"Whenever you dare to question anything about almighty gun ownership, you will shake the monkey cage and you will have shit tossed at you by the monkeys."

DonCoquixote

(13,961 posts)
40. sigh
Mon Mar 11, 2013, 11:14 PM
Mar 2013

Then again, you have a bunch of people who think Prison rape is a part of the sentence; as if the prisoners owe is that for getting "three hots and a cot."

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
41. There's a not-so-subtle streak of sadism in American culture.
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 12:27 AM
Mar 2013

I don't blame movies or TV (or video games) like some do, but I think our entertainment choices certainly reflect our collective vicarious cruelty.

duhneece

(4,510 posts)
43. This is why we joined others to rise up with One Billion Rising
Tue Mar 12, 2013, 11:57 AM
Mar 2013

Our community IS talking more about sexual assault and how we can end it because of Eve Ensler's work...we started with producing The Vagina Monologues then went on to two plays of locals telling their stories...including stories of hard decisions-abortion & two transgendered folks told their stories...and we're in a small, fundamentalist, right-wing county. We ARE rising and saying, 'enough.'

http://onebillionrising.org/

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