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JI7
(93,616 posts)
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)I'm not sure you can say the same about women.
JI7
(93,616 posts)Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)Women are more likely to receive help from family and social networks.
JI7
(93,616 posts)or other relatives without questions asked. but if a single mother did that too much she would be seen as neglecting the kid and judged in ways the guy wouldn't.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)I don't really see how this works in favor of men.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Mother Teresa or something. Even when their wives have jobs, it's too often the norm she can put her job second.
Guys get more credit for doing any of the housework too. My friends with kids work and earn more than their husbands- and somehow the husbands still have their hobbies and a social life while their wives are consumed by handling the kids, feeding everyone etc. and heir husbands have the nerve to get pissed off of they have to get groceries. They call it "her shopping" and being forced to "babysit" when it's their own damned kids. Unreal.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The current ones are poisoning your worldview.
I was a stay at home dad for several years. At grade-school conferences each year the teachers would start out turning their backs on me to talk to my wife until SHE set them straight about who was the primary school deal-wither.
After 30 years, we have pretty much reached an equilibrium where we each do the tasks for which we are best suited. I'm not looking for a medal for doing the dishes, and I think you're promoting a pretty offensive stereotype.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But they are fun because they are well taken care of, spoiled even.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Yeah, I get it. They need to stop kidding themselves that they are making the world a better place by taking on more than they can handle, or roles that do not suit them.
Who goads them into the failed attempts at being an alpha? They learn this crap from their Dads and their peer group. Women dont like it any better than they do. some of them we love, despite the posturing.
If they were actually friends and confidants with women, they might know better.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)My boss back in 1985 said at work, "well, I have to babysit tonight, what a bummer" so I asked "Whose kids?" "Mine" he says. And I exploded at him "that's not babysitting." Then a few years later another young father said something similar and I wagged my finger at him too.
Yet there it is. Those guys are married with kids, and I am not.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)The man never stops eating, 350 lbs and an ex wrestler married to a twig- and their her groceries? WTF?
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)If you want to look around and find instances of lazy people, they aren't hard to find.
If you want to point to quantifiable data, women do on average work more hours in the home than men do. However men work more hours on the job than women do.
cleanhippie
(19,705 posts)and realize that perhaps YOUR perspective is not what others perceive, you are well on your way to real understanding.
I wish you luck.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)The slightest fuck up by a single mother causes an uproar. The slightest charity from a single father makes the headlines.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)Certainly there's uproar when a woman drowns her kids in the bathtub, but short of that I don't see much of it. What I do see of it is usually women wagging their fingers at other women.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)In other words, an automatic response whereby single mothers are considered inherently inadequate and therefore any little failure on their part is part and parcel evidence of said inadequacy.
A single father is just the opposite. He is charged as a hero by society for taking on a "non-traditional" role. His parenting is considered a sacrifice from his potential social and economic conquest.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)I see no evidence of it. I see ample evidence to the contrary. Women are the default custodian receive custodianship about 3/4ths of the time when it's contested.
Who considers single mothers "inherently inadequate" other than perhaps a few isolated religious institutions which happen to be in the business of systemic shaming?
Dash87
(3,220 posts)I think we can safely say that there is no shortage of people judging each other - male or female.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)I'm talking about men who are viewed as fuckups or losers for doing things that would not earn women the same title. Society views men as expendable and disposable, while women are viewed as delicate and in need of protection.
JI7
(93,616 posts)Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)If you're still talking about single parents, I'm not sure who would be the owner in that property arrangement. If you want to talk about gender expectations as a whole, then yes both genders have different expectations which work both positively and negatively for both.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Women are only portrayed as delicate when the men in charge don't need them anymore. I.e., during WWII, propaganda portrayed women as strong human beings... totally capable of handling any man's job. After the war ended and men needed those jobs, propaganda directed towards women switched to the domestic sphere. No longer were women flashing their muscles in their work shirts in "We Can Do It" posters. They were now portrayed baking cupcakes in dresses, pearls, and high heels... a hobbling of their movement and freedom.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)Women also hold most of the political power. Women decided this last election. Not men. Men favored Romney by 9 points. Women have consistently outvoted men for the last 30 years. I just don't put much merit in the idea that women as a gender somehow completely escape culpability just because most of the people who happened to send them off to war were men. We as a society send men to war. There are plenty of examples of women who voted for the war in Iraq. Even if women held 50% of the elected positions, there's not much basis to believe that women wouldn't be sending men to war just like all other politicians. I also don't put much stock in the idea that men predominately control the women's fashion industry. Not many men buy women's clothes and accessories.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)hate them and Democrats embrace them. The so-called purists on this board are regularly castigated for being single issue voters... don't vote for peace - vote for birth control! vote for Roe v Wade!
And, until women have hold 50% of elected office to prove me wrong, I will blame war and warmongering on men. See you in 100 years.
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)Lots of people do. That doesn't mean it's justified. If you're looking that strongly for scapegoats, organized religion has quite a bit more to do with both of those things than gender. Seems like that would be a better place to start.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)We do, though, have a choice between a pro-choice war mongering man and an anti-choice war mongering man.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I'm 3-2, fwiw.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)And have successfully feminized my constituency. In the effete European sense.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... without having personally lifted a finger in that regard.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Personally, I feel that civil disobedience advances a liberal agenda far more than electoral politics. But I also think that all contributions are valuable. That my path, as an activist or a volunteer does not diminish your choice of a conventional path.
You are proud of your electoral office. I am proud of my volunteer activities and arrests that have advance social and economic justice.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Your time in jail does more to advance the cause of gender equity than running for office ever could.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Are you active in any prisoners projects. Are you a participant in Cop Watch. Are you a member of any organization that seeks justice for black and brown males that are incarcerated at levels far beyond their white counterparts who are arrested for the same crime. Perhaps if you did, and you were successful, you would see the male incarcerate decline.
Also, without any other info, your graph reveals that men commit more crimes. Perhaps we need a "man tax" to equalize the burden society too keep them in jail.
Just kidding about the last part.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)But we all pretty much agree that blacks are in jail because of racism.
In reality, men are in jail largely for the same reason blacks are; discrimination.
And gender trumps race, i.e. Crystal Mangum is NOT in jail.
But we're digressing here.
There's an element of having it both ways going on in the upthread argument. "Don't raise the price of contraception or you'll incur the wrath of 54% of the voters!" followed by "The fact that most elected officials are men proves that women don't have any power as voters! The patriarchy makes some women vote the wrong way."
Which is it? "I am woman, hear me roar!" or "Won't some knight in shining armor come rescue me from myself"?
The fact that you may or may not agree with the other women who collectively make up the dominant voting bloc of US politics is immaterial. We have the elected officials that women chose.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Ran for Congress, lost in the Democratic Primary - to a woman.
Ran for County Treasurer, lost to a woman.
Although I also ran for precinct man and won three times.
It sure does help to not have an opponent.
I won my race for the waterboard too, a non-paying job. Actually I came in 3rd out of 4 with three people being seated. The woman came in first, then the dentist, then me, then the businessman who had been attacked in the paper (something I did not know about or really approve of).
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Personally, I'm only ambitious enough for city council and school board.
Running for "the waterboard" sounds like no fun at all. 
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I thought I was gonna get paid, $50 a meeting or something. Which is not much, but for a guy who only made about $12,000 a year, it would have been something.
I was kinda happy that I was able, eventually, to get fairer water rate increases. Although tonight I was the only one in favor of more benefits for the workers. And tonight a guy came who is thinking of running for my spot (as a write in candidate (I chose not to file for another 4 year term so there are only two people who filed for 3 spots) is one of the richest guys in town. Very knowledgeable, I am sure, since he owns a construction company, but is he gonna give a crap about the working class? And is he gonna use the water board, as I hoped to, to go for higher offices?
My Congress run was a bit of a lark. I just lived in a district without a candidate, as I saw it. The woman said she was running in January, but by April still hadn't filed, or apparently talked to the press anywhere. So I filed on April 15th so Democrats would have a candidate. Then Cheryl filed and then another guy filed too, who doesn't even live in our district. I still wonder if that guy wasn't sent into my race in order to derail my campaign. Because Johnson County, where he hails from is a wealthy county and the Democrats there might not have liked my "tax the rich" platform. Cheryl still got 32% of the vote, which I figured our district had about 35% of yellow dog Democratic voters. I was hoping for 40% myself and think I would have put more effort into it. But that might not have mattered, because I ran myself ragged and still lost the primary.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They are not the ones women chose, they are the ones women and men chose. The way you put it there would be true only if only women voted. Women cast 54% of the votes but they didn't vote as a group - some of them voted for Rmoney. Men cast 46% of the votes, but didn't vote as a group. Some voted for Obama. Obama won the majority of men and women.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It would be difficult to find anyone who has won office in the US without earning the votes of most of the women in their jurisdiction.
It is EASY to find multiple candidates who lost despite getting the votes of most men.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Some of them are Republicans. Some of them are against women's rights and think we should stay in the home and defer to men. There are men who think women should have careers and be out in the world. Women do not vote as a block and they are no block politically. We may think Republican women are idiots,, but they do exist. If you think women have gotten too far, they've had plenty of help from a lot of men.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Yet men are a non-cohesive minority bloc.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They are not a minority cohesive group. Plenty of them are liberal on women's issues.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Golden parachuters get rewarded for fucking up--underlings get fired. This is from an old office poster circa 1945, and little has changed.
I'm not allowed to steer the train
The whistle I can't blow
I'm not allowed to say how far
The railroad cars can go.
I'm not allowed to toot the horn
Or even ring the bell
But let the damned thing jump the track
Then see who catches hell!
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Men are allowed to fuck up, because people are at best indifferent to the consequences he suffers as a result of failure. At worst, it's cause for a good laugh.
Women who make mistakes create a wave of recrimination throughout her circle of friends and society because "we should have seen it coming, and redirected her from a mistake that will follow her for the rest of her life." They describe their views using phrases like "a nuanced view of consent" as a reason to substitute their own judgment for the woman in question.
Which is better? People being judgmental of her risky behavior or laughing at the bruises after the fact?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)
left is right
(1,665 posts)slut, whore, or bitch
Major Nikon
(36,925 posts)That's the difference.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)JI7
(93,616 posts)DollarBillHines
(1,922 posts)I do not wish to know anyone who hasn't royally fucked up on many an occasion.
You know, guys like D Cheney. "I wouldn't change a thing. I would do it again in a minute."
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)perpetually. Endlessly. Unceasingly.
The tale of Victorian and post-Victorian humanity is the tale of men debasing women as a means of scapegoating.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)that they feel they cannot share or talk about for fear of appearing weak.
That is one of the many things that make it difficult.
I look forward to seeing who the first poster is that calls you a whiner or says the equivalent of "boo hoo".
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Derailed right out of the gait.
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)I work with young adults. The young women are going to tell you they are sad, hurt, upset, or confused; the young men are going to tell you they are fine.
Not a culture in which men can be vulnerable. Is there one???
Lex
(34,108 posts)Please.
Nederland
(9,979 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)consequences for it.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)"We can't pay the rent this month, honey. We might lose our apartment. I really don't know what we're going to do."
Why is it so hard for women to comprehend this without vicious snark?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)so it's simply not the case that all of this pressure rests on the man's shoulders.
Yeah, if you blow the rent money on drugs, booze, or gambling, forcing your family into homelessness, you're going to get scorn.
Well-deserved scorn. It's really not that hard to be an adult.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)that did not jointly, have a handle on the day to day finances that the prospect of losing the apartment would be a surprise to any one of them.
RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 12, 2013, 12:12 AM - Edit history (1)
And then go and fight them so we can kill the enemy.
For people who want equality, as I do, I suggest you work to end wars, only then can everything else can begin to heal.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)ETA: Not saying it's easy being a man, just easier.
REP
(21,691 posts)I'm talking about interactions between normal, decent people: trying to determine who's really interested and who's being polite and all that - being expected to be the one who makes the move all the time would be pretty awful.
JI7
(93,616 posts)maybe it's because of how it's done. but women/girls often ask out guys they are interested in . it might not be referred to as a "date" but more as hanging out doing something both have interest in.
REP
(21,691 posts)I was either an outlier and/or poorly socialized; I never waited around to be asked out and I met my husband of 20+ years through a rather unusual personal ad I ran in the local freebie. But I think men are still expected to be 'the asker,' even if its no longer odd for women to do so
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)were relationships that I initiated. I've also been turned down and I've also men accept but then were unwilling to go on a 2nd or 3rd date.
Maybe some people still expect men to be the one in charge, but I don't believe that most women feel that way. I see it this way... I've been asked out by men who I've liked, who I thought were fun, intelligent, and interesting, but didn't really have a strong desire to go on a date with. Certainly, I was not going to initiate anything in that kind of situation but I do realize that any one of those men may have felt, after having asked me for a date and I agreed, that they carried the burden of the initiator. That I was WAITING for them to ask, when, in fact, I was doing no such thing.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)At least in this country, that expectation still exists although it has lessened to a degree. I am happy of course to see more women taking the initiative, but the fallback position is still men do the asking.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)"Big guy, get your paws off me" is the time honored woman joke. What you will never hear is that at times we dread sex. No, we LOVE sex, but the burden of having to make it interesting the 1,236th time wears on us. Another thing that no guy is allowed to admit. Ever.
JI7
(93,616 posts)not sure where you are coming up with these things.
these are maybe YOUR issues but i don't see it as some huge problem men have .
Response to JI7 (Reply #45)
UnrepentantLiberal This message was self-deleted by its author.
Paladin
(32,354 posts)If you didn't realize what a flamebait extravaganza your OP would touch off, I've got news for you: You're a loser.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)That post was very snarky. I'll delete it.
Paladin
(32,354 posts)
Skittles
(171,710 posts)
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)using techniques tried and true, in less than 15 minutes, then surely you will be worn out. And if you don't think that women think about "making it interesting" then maybe you are not paying attention.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)You are the man! Your technique must be mind blowing.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)it down by the 3rd time we were together. So much so that after that 3rd time, I was jumping up and down at the end of the bed asking, "Can I come back tomorrow?" 25 years later, we still giggle about it.
If your are talking about trying to figure out the orgasm triggers to 1,236 different women, then yes, I can see a problem. If you are talking about one women and 1,236 times, well then, the problem lies with you. If you are talking about multiple women over several sexual encounters, well then yes, there will be a burden on both of you to make it interesting. Now, granted, it is easier to bring a man to orgasm (and women carry the burden of not being easily brought to orgasm) but that doesn't mean that a woman doesn't have a desire to make the experience interesting.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I gotta try harder.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)But the effort was fun.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)a man given the parameters.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)When was the last time you heard anyone brag about sex based on how good it was for him?
"Sixty seconds baby! A new record! Woo-hoo! That was awesome!"
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And I took it as a compliment.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)most common stereotypes in popular culture.
Seriously, where do you read this stuff?
treestar
(82,383 posts)This is a burden to you?
Imagine the burden of worrying about every physical feature.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that he should ask them out. Goodness knows my clueless dad wouldn't have asked my mom out had she not dropped the right hints.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)And there are a lot of single women, who I imagine really want to date someone but cannot fathom being on this end of it. So they will wait, and wait, and wait. My sister, prime exmaple, very elligible, professional, turning 30 and complaining of being single. I asked if she ever considered asking the man out, she said, "no way".
redqueen
(115,186 posts)but it is far from the norm anymore and hasn't been for going on two decades now.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)They are very up front about asking out a human being that they are interested.
REP
(21,691 posts)I'm 48; some of my peers were like me; many were not. I still think the expectations fall more heavily on men, not the responsibility.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)I know someone who asked her future husband out on their first date.
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)You get to choose who you make a move on.
Being able to choose who you approach is much, much better. The worst that can happen is that they say no. Then move on, as men are said to want to do anyway! You don't have to deal with the women you don't find attractive at all - none of their resentment or ire is your problem.
REP
(21,691 posts)Dudes are just people, and most people are normal human beings - not swaggering caricatures of one thing or the other (masculine bravado or feminine beguiling). Being rejected - even nicely - hurts; for the shyer and less secure, it hurts a lot.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And there's the flip side. As a girl I had to deal with the resentment of men who asked me out, but I was not interested. It seemed to me unfair they were entitled and thought I should come up with an explanation or excuse. As the man you do not have that problem regarding the women you are not interested in. At least the rejection is up front and you know and could move on.
Remember the "wallflower." Imagine sitting there not being asked to dance by anyone. That's more rejection than one girl saying no, when you can move on to another and another until you find the one willing.
REP
(21,691 posts)I'm not playing the "who has it worse" game. The patriarchy sucks for all. Here is one specific thing that sucks for dudes. Not worse; not more; just does.
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is better for them that they get to choose who they ask. I found being asked out by men I did not consider attractive and getting crap for saying no to be a problem. The old fashioned rules sucked. But men still have it better. The OP is silly.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)Many men don't bother asking and if they feel resentful at least they can soothe their egos with the knowledge that at least they weren't rejected.
A woman who waits for a man to ask and isn't asked, well, there's no way of rationalizing that, is there?
I've always been the asker / initiator and rejection isn't even that bad so what the fuck ever.
cbrer
(1,831 posts)The human condition varies widely.
Progressives (ostensibly) have made the most "progress" towards seeing our struggles as a mutual path towards enlightenment, rather than individual, gender based existences.
Especially in light of female fighter pilots, MMA champs, and a slowly increasing political representation.
What I want to know is what brought about such a visceral post from such a liberally minded individual?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Why would a thread about how men feel be instant trolling? I went to great pains to phrase it in such a way that it wouldn't be. Is it that the idea of men having feelings is too much to comprehend?
cbrer
(1,831 posts)On a personal level, my feelings run deeply and passionately. On a social level I just thought that these issues were pretty well identified and ironed out.
No one as removed as I am from your personal life, can make a pertinent judgement about your feelings validity.
Perhaps I misunderstood your statements. The (seeming) cliches about expectations for mens behaviors, classifications, and pigeonholing were rationalized a long time ago. Doesn't mean they don't still exist at some level. Just means that despite our emotional backsliding sometimes, we should know better. Especially when considering how many factors affect feelings. Factors outside of our control. That many times have nothing to do with the events or perception of those events.
Again though, that's no claim to legitimacy of those feelings or not. Sheese, I've proven to myself too many times my inability to accurately judge human actions, reactions, or values. Having said that, I believe mens feelings are responsible for 90% + of the worlds suffering.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)We know we fuck up, on a daily basis. Sometimes in grand ways, sometimes in trivial ways.
We don't go through life feeling sorry for ourselves because the world expects us to behave like adults and doesn't put its collective arms around us in an empathetic hug when we don't.
We get pissed off, and usually there ain't jack shit we can do about it. Women have the exact same issue.
theKed
(1,235 posts)
chollybocker
(3,687 posts)Just don't raise your arms above your shoulders, and you'll pass.
Iggo
(49,927 posts)Yeah me neither.
MyshkinCommaPrince
(611 posts)Sometimes. What's really hard, though, is being a human with an unappealing nose. The appealingly-nosed can be just plain rotten. Some day we'll overcome this, I'm sure, and both types of nose-people will be able to live comfortably with one another, but probably not until after the martians invade. Martians have really quite off-putting noses. Then we'll be able to see that we're all just people, with people-noses. I know all of this because I saw it in a dream. Martians also hate strawberries, except on toast, and they think green sneakers are pretty neat, even though they don't really have feet.
NRaleighLiberal
(61,857 posts)being "human beings" - of being giving, sharing, kind in a world where so many are taking, hogging and uncaring - of fighting what seems to be our base natural instincts and try somehow to just do it better.
Maybe it is because we were raised in our family to be "people", not with any particular labels of sex, color, religion, expectations...and that's how we've raised our girls - to be as fine "people" as possible, understanding that it is not a playing field in many ways.
I feel fortunate - from what I observe, I've got much to feel fortunate about - so many men I know trying to be "men" - stereotypes - instead of just the best "people" they can be.
NRaleighLiberal
(61,857 posts)
demmiblue
(39,719 posts)How insensitive for you to say lame .bla and more bla
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)1. Why don't you go post some flame bait in GD?
That should snap things up a bit.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1259&pid=384
So, this is the op going for it, with the blessings of the admins.
enough
(13,760 posts)This is not snark. This is the only way I know of for the two genders to understand each other, and a lot of the time it seems to work.
XRubicon
(2,241 posts)Nederland
(9,979 posts)...and I'm not sure even they really know.
I wonder if there have been any polls taken to discover what they think.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)just different crap to deal with,,,each one has shit thrown at them just different issues
but he was happy to be a male
of course there are other factors for that happiness when you mix in sex reassignment surgery too
Jamastiene
(38,206 posts)Look at Bush. He has been a fuck up all his life and he became president.
we can do it
(13,024 posts)Football players beat their dogs and wives and are still considered heroes to other men. They get paid more for the same job......
Oh BOOO HOOO HOOOO 
MineralMan
(151,269 posts)is variably difficult. Not very for some, but more for others. It has not been too difficult for me, but it is different for each person, man or woman. Too many variables in the equation.
theKed
(1,235 posts)"Parapalegic hispanic woman who made millions" defense we hear so much about in the privilege threads?
that reply was for the poster above you >_<
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)Born in a female body.
I have spent a LOT of time contemplating "hmmm, I have this girl body that doesn't feel like I belong in it... I am not a woman... what if I were a boy? what would that be like"?
I don't think being a man would be any easier. The idea of all the societal pressures associated with "being a man" scared me.
I am not happy about my female body (because if feels alien to me) and I don't identify as a woman... but I don't believe I would be any happier with a male body or identifying as a man.
I am just... some sort of alien creature that doesn't fit either binary category.
But being a man certainly does not seem like it would be any kind of walk in the park to me.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)Please don't think of yourself as an alien creature. You are a lovely, kind, and caring human being. 
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)You have no idea how much I needed to hear that right now. (I didn't either, until I read it.)
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)
Xipe Totec
(44,558 posts)Being human is never easy.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)I'm a female and pretty happy with my female body. There certainly have been times when I've wished it to be different, mainly to have less flesh 
, but I've always felt perfectly comfortable in my body.
You have given me much, much food for thought.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
quinnox
(20,600 posts)From a man who very possibly was "enlightened" and extraordinarily rare.
Questioner: Sir, why do we want to have a companion?
Krishnamurti: A girl asks why we want a companion. Why does one want a companion? Can you live alone in this world without a husband or a wife, without children, without friends? Most people cannot live alone, therefore they need companions. It requires enormous intelligence to be alone; and you must be alone to find God, truth. It is nice to have a companion, a husband or a wife, and also to have babies; but you see, we get lost in all that, we get lost in the family, in the job, in the dull, monotonous routine of a decaying existence. We get used to it, and then the thought of living alone becomes dreadful, something to be afraid of. Most of us have put all our faith in one thing, all our eggs in one basket, and our lives have no richness apart from our companions, apart from our families and our jobs. But if there is a richness in one's life - not the richness of money or knowledge, which anyone can acquire, but that richness which is the movement of reality with no beginning and no ending - then companionship becomes a secondary matter.
But, you see, you are not educated to be alone. Do you ever go out for a walk by yourself? It is very important to go out alone, to sit under a tree - not with a book, not with a companion, but by yourself - and observe the falling of a leaf, hear the lapping of the water, the fisherman's song, watch the flight of a bird, and of your own thoughts as they chase each other across the space of your mind. If you are able to be alone and watch these things, then you will discover extraordinary riches which no government can tax, no human agency can corrupt, and which can never be destroyed.
Nikia
(11,411 posts)If I am not being more assertive than the average man, than I am weak. If I am more so, I am being at least rude and maybe a horrible tyrant. If I am not asking my employees about how they are personally more than the average man than I am uncaring. If I talk more than the average man, I just like to stand around gossiping. I'm definitely not allowed to fuck up or I'm incompetent. I'm not allowed to be emotional. My male predecessor did get fired, but he was allowed to fuck up and be extremely moody for several years.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)i've been in a supervisory position for three and a half years and there have been plenty of times that i knew an employee was blowing me off because i'm a woman.
MrsMatt
(1,666 posts)It's hard to be anyone, to do anything, to be anything.
Discuss . . .
Warpy
(114,615 posts)that the media have always handed to men plus the peer pressure to be a good ole boy, a regular guy.
Men die earlier because of their testosterone load and faster metabolism, not because they've been picked on. It's the tradeoff for that superior size and strength.
Yes, men have been handed a raw deal by this culture. This culture hasn't been healthy for anybody for a very long time.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)"This culture hasn't been healthy for anybody for a very long time."
Sometimes its life's little tidbits of wisdom that have the best flavor.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)This society spends 35% more on health care for women, much of which is spent at an age at which her male peers are already dead. Men suffer 92% of workplace fatalities and the jobs they perform break bodies and cause disability.
"Testosterone" is an excuse trotted out to obfuscate the issues of privilege that are the real cause.
reflection
(6,287 posts)which are difficult for other people to understand, and make it harder for us to accomplish certain things.
Some are broad, such as race or gender. Others are less prevalent. It is both the beauty and the curse of the human experience.
KG
(28,795 posts)
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Especially when the ladys' room line is out the door and we get to stroll smugly into the men's room.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)a women's restroom with a bajillion stalls
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)women in line began chanting "don't start without us" as it got near time for show to resume. Some women went into the men's room. Other women came out of stalls with their pants still undone to make room for other women.
It was communal chaos. 
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Little boys are taught how to. Little girls are not.
AAO
(3,300 posts)
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)It's obvious that they are under a great deal of pressure. This isn't an easy world for anyone.
I think you might benefit from reading a book called "You just don't understand" by Deborah Tannen. She's a linguist who discusses the very different ways men and women use language to communicate. For example, you say that men are expected to fix every problem. Actually, they're not -- at least, not from a woman's perspective. When women tell men about problems, they often get frustrated because men instantly pose solutions. Or, if men don't have a solution, they'll say something minimizing the problem. (Like, "It'll be okay."
But the woman often isn't asking for a "fix" -- she's just venting and wants someone who will commiserate.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)pnwmom
(110,261 posts)probably has a much greater understanding of women than a man who has never watched a girl grow into adulthood.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Here at DU -- from reading discussions and debates in the feminist forum -- is just how fundamentally different men and women really are. After reading these conversations, I am convinced that even at BEST it is fundamentally impossible for us to have anything better than a general idea of what it's like. We get the surface and think we understand, but having never experienced it we cannot know the reality.
Given this, I think the best we can do is to LISTEN to those who do know.
pnwmom
(110,261 posts)a good book by a linguist about the very different forms of communication styles of men and women:
"You Just Don't Understand" by Deborah Tannen.
I read it decades ago and it explained SO much. It helped me understand my husband and it helped me be a better mother to my sons.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Thanks
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm astounded.
This is clearly a subject that cannot be discussed.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I knew it would turn into this but it's pretty shocking to see that any vulnerabilities in men is viewed as incomprehensible in society. Kind of makes you think about gender and what lies under the surface of our feelings.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)We did not appoint you.
You will notice most of the snark is coming from adult men.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I've read your posts.
Control-Z
(15,686 posts)Hmm? Could it have been to start an instant snark fest? I didn't read meta much but it is sounding like you may have been a frequent visitor. Withdrawals, perhaps?
If I'm wrong, my apologies.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Control-Z
(15,686 posts)
October
(3,363 posts)Seriously.
Maybe this makes for an interesting topic of conversation at some point -- but for now, a lot of females are just trying to be "allowed" to control our own bodies. So, can we get back to you on this? Jesus, we're blamed if we're raped for God's sake.
That's not a snark. It's reality.
I happen to adore my husband of nearly 30 years, and my teenage son. They work hard and earn respect -- same as our daughter and me. We're a family. A team, if you will, who supports one another in good times and bad. I don't know where you come from -- but that's not the way it is everywhere. Men are vulnerable all over the map, and are allowed to be. I'm sorry that has not been your experience, but that's what this is -- your experience.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)It went off the rails much quicker than I thought.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Skittles
(171,710 posts)
I had to stop right there UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)You have to be cool all the time. *Even when you fuck up*. You have to be able to pivot with grace. The men in your life are so trained at doing it (and fearful of coming off like a cat on ice) I don't think you're aware we're doing it. Because to slip up and appear like a dork is something we CANNOT do. It's not an option.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)let alone being 'cool' all the time.
Lots of us are comfortable being dorks, nerds, and geeks because that's who we are, and fuck anyone who doesn't like it.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)My dad worked on the line for GM for many years. He was a geek. And very well respected by his co-workers. And, when a teenager, I had more meaningful deep and emotionally vulnerable conversations with him than I ever did with my mom.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)with no prospects or interest in being cool.
My wife is the same way. Our cats are named after Tolkien characters.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Oh, okay, I'll tell you anyway...
#1, the old boy: Count Olaf Von Bubbletush
#2 & #3 (the kittens): My Name Is Inigo Montoya, You Killed My Father. Prepare To Die... and
His Name Is Corne-e-e-e-lius. He Invented Lo-o-o-ng Division!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)my previous sweetheart dog was nicknamed TickyToes Bouncypants and I sometimes call my present sweetie Moosinki Poopsalotski.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Skittles
(171,710 posts)men don't represent all men when they fuck up, and they fuck up ALL THE TIME
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I was trying to go the other direction to see what would happen.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Because, you know, women get to do that all the time.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Because I feel like women who fuck up aren't really given second chances. And I think of the male politicians and religious leaders who have seriously fucked up who have been given second chances. I wonder if women were in that position of power and did the same things if they would get still be as popular as Bill Clinton is now, for instance? (And yes I'm a fan of Bill Clinton, despite his mistakes.) Women don't get in those positions of power as often so it's hard to compare. It's something for me to think about.
muriel_volestrangler
(106,210 posts)It's is a good thing that it's not about being the toughest guy in the room?
As for "a man is not allowed to fuck up", I'm not convinced that's any more true for men than women. "You and you alone have to have a solution to every problem" is certainly not true. Women are allowed to have solutions, you know.
tblue
(16,350 posts)Now I've got a whole different way of looking at things. I used to think only women were 'victims' when it comes to gender advantages and disadvantages. Now, not so much. There are instances where women have it harder—far too many of those. But men can be vulnerable, abused, misunderstood, cheated, and hurt to the core also. Girlfriends can be horrible to their boyfriends. Yes, they sure can. And the woman who toys with my son will have to answer to ME! (Well not really, but that's how I feel.) Be nice to each other, everybody, please.
joeunderdog
(2,563 posts)Commitment.
Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)
Post removed
name not needed
(11,665 posts)Although, I must say "wanker" is a step up from the "fuck you" I got.
Vanje
(9,766 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Thanks jury!
gollygee
(22,336 posts)At Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:22 PM an alert was sent on the following post:
Wanker.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2491992
REASON FOR ALERT:
This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate. (See <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=aboutus#communitystandards" target="_blank">Community Standards</a>.)
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
Personal attacj...
JURY RESULTS
You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Mar 11, 2013, 07:33 PM, and the Jury voted 4-2 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I agree with Vanje. OP is shit stirring in GD now that Meta is gone.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: There is a better argument than \"wanker\". It is unfortunate that I have to vote to hide this because it appears to be a personal attack. Come up with a better way to tell him his OP sucks.
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: I hate to hide it because I get why you said it, however it is a sexist personal attack and therefore I do have to vote to hide. Sorry, Vanje <3
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: Too bad there isn\'t a nicer way to say the same. I\'m guessing a lot of people are thinking it. But, no, this is not ok.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)
Grateful for Hope
(39,320 posts)My one love in life who I was married to for 27 years screwed up many times (as we all do). When he did, he spent a great deal of time berating himself. It always hurt me to see this. Eventually, he felt better because I was usually able to convince him that he was still the amazing man that I always knew he was.
I think what you are describing is a problem with how boys are raised. Fathers may well be far more at fault than mothers here. So many fathers want their sons to be what they were never quite able to be.
A partner can't give to her man the self-assurance that he needs to have for himself. All she/he can do is support him.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Second, how are we tormented by being pissed off in a way that doesn't torment women?
This is one of the worst posts I've seen in a while--some combination of trolling and extraordinary ignorance.
As a man, I consider this post adolescent self-pity from someone who apparently doesn't have anything real to complain about.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Speaking in generalities, and realizing that I am dealing in certain stereotypes.
Men are socialized to be solo, not to discuss feelings, not to discuss what is going on internally. They are supposed to be in charge, to take care of things. Women have been socialized to seek out the group, and the group norm.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)They never get punished. In fact, they just get bolder.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)
UTUSN
(77,795 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I wasn't going for an explosion. Just a different perspective.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)All I evah did was regard all of you as meal tickets.
It's tough to be a human!
cate94
(3,102 posts)keeping you from discussing this with other men is yourself. So you are blaming your situation on the world when the person who has the solution is in your mirror.
Sorry but your pride is the root of your torment. As for women not understanding, um how is anyone supposed to understand when you are afraid and refuse to be honest?
As for not being allowed to fuck up, that is simply an excuse to not try and go outside whatever you feel is safe. YOu built the box. YOu got inside it and locked it and now you are complaining it is too small. Your choice.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I call B.S. on this thread.
And any honest, non self-pitying man knows why.
Nothing further ... except to say, this thread is likely to end up in the "Greatest Threads" forum. Congrats ... flame bait still works.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Fear of looking uncool, not being able to fight, etc.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)
Bucky
(55,334 posts)Let's go over the silliness
1- A man is not allowed to fuck up.
Men screw up all the time. It's funny. From Jackass videos to Homer Simpson to the Iraq invasion to Everyone Loves Raymond to Enron to global warming to getting caught screwing around on our significant others and then winning her back with a well timed bouquet and a few sessions with a marriage counselor, men have been fucking up and getting away with it ever since Fred MacMurray went off the air and was replaced by the Watergate hearings.
2- You and you alone have to have a solution to every problem.
Double huh? All we gotta do is listen to our mates and act like we understand and not only do we get credit for "being one of the good ones" but we usually get sex after afterwards, too. Yeh, we gotta clean the leafs out of the gutters and open the pickle jars and swat the mosquito hawks out the back door. But beyond that, we get bonus points in an "equal partnership" for watching the kids 15% of the time, doing the dishes 25% of the time, and picking up tampons that 10% of the time we go and do the shopping alone. Compared to wearing high heels and constantly feeling inadequate about our body self-images, I think the dudes cashed out early in the roulette table of life.
3- Secondly, it's not about being the toughest guy in the room. If you kicked everyone's ass who pissed you of you'd be in jail. Simple as that.
I have no idea what the OP dude is babbling about here. Everybody in the room? Who gets mad that much? I'm 49. I've been in two fights in the last 30 years. Once I had a guy beat and I said to the drunk, "Look pal, I'm not mad at you. Let's call it quits." My date told me I was a true gentleman and I got lucky that night. The second time I knocked cold on my ass and ended up with a bloody nose on St. Patrick's day. The girl whose mistreatment prompted my pointless interference and subsequent ass kicking call me "the last hero standing" and the next weekend I got laid. Frankly, I don't know why I don't get into fights more often.
[font color="#dododo"]. . . . [/font]But the point is, some time after the age of 30, we quit fighting and quit trying to be tough guys. The cool thing about guy fights is, once they're over they're over. Chicks carry grudges for years and use words and social pecking orders as ostracization to fuck up their enemies in a way that lasts. It's much easier getting into conflicts with dudes, especially now when no one's even gonna kick my ass.
4- And this why men die, on average, ten years earlier then women.
We die younger because of long term work related stress and because we eat like pigs and guzzle beer. What, do you wanna live forever? Screw that, I'd rather eat all that ice cream and barbecue and have a big happy tummy. Anyway, it's more like six years, and it's those six years at the end when I'd be old and crotchedy anyway.
5- These things torment us. Being a man is a subtle dance. A hair raising circus act at times with no net.
Nice poem. You're not really talking about anything. But I ain't tormented. I don't waste my time analyzing things to death as much as the women in my life do. Overthinking is a torment. Shrugging off the bullshit and getting back to my hobbies is called zen mastery when Tich Nat Hanh does it. I'll bet he'll live to 102. Me, I'm good with being a dude.
[font color="#dododo"]. . . . [/font]I think it's easier than being a chick. That's why I make the extra effort to open the doors and pinch in my farts till she's left the room and don't bitch about it when I have to drop my video game and go into the kitchen and open that damned pickle jar again. I mean, damn, woman, it's not that hard to whap the edge of the lid with a butter knife, is it? But whatever. You're doing the dishes again tonight, anyway, so I might as well pitch in just to make you glad I'm around.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Do you also kill bugs, put up shelves, and take out the garbage?
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Great post all the way around!
galileoreloaded
(2,571 posts)realize that it is impossible for you to fuck up. Anything else is a oneway ticket to the asylum in 2013.
Your frame is seriously messed up.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)In fact, half the time I don't think any of you exist at all, I'm just Brahma dreaming all your shit anyway.
opiate69
(10,129 posts)It would be hilarious if we were all the same person... like an internet version of the movie "Identity"
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Boy, it's a rare movie that can be so silly on so many levels. Like that one, and Battlefield Earth are the only two which spring to mind.
***
Seriously, though, fiddle around with enough illicit chemicals in one's youth, and it is almost inevitable that you'll bump up against the conclusion that we're all really just one dude/dudette.
And that's leaving aside the 20% or so, by some estimations, of DU that is just Library Girl alone.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)All of you are just characters in my play. Why do you think you can perceive reality in my play anyway, Warren?
The empressof all
(29,106 posts)Is you've never met a woman (or perhaps even a man) who had the slightest idea of what it is like to be you.
I don't know many men who share your feelings to be honest. I know quite a few of them well and trust that what they tell me about their inner life to be accurate and true.
It must be hard for you to carry all that baggage around. It's not fair and it doesn't need to be that way.
I'm sorry you experience life this way...But not all men do.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I love life. I have a lot of good times. But to say that men don't lay awake at night thinking about the things in this thread is nuts. We all do whether we admit it or not.
This thread is kind of disturbing. Are women this invested in thinking men don't think? Is this why women are so critical? I think we're talking Darwin here.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Anyone who takes anything you have to say on gender seriously after that juvenile sexist remark does so at the expense of their own credibility.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)But I was responding to something a woman said. (At least I think it was a woman.) I just find that men can't have existential fears in this thread odd. Now that I think about it, it's that most who are reading this thread are hanging back and observing. Which leaves me debating... doh! 
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)as 1StrongBlackMan ... I can honestly say, I don't lay awake thinking about any of the stuff you raise. I haven't thought about being the toughest guy in the room for ... well ... since I realized (at about 25) that my manhood isn't tied to my being the toughest guy in the room.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)You place your head on your pillow satisfied that you've always made the right call and that no one has gotten one over on you for the last 365 days? No anxiety at all? Really, 1StrongBlackMan, really? No thoughts at night about who am I? What the fuck am I doing? Just go to work. Score! Come home to woman. Score! Barbecue. Score!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I have had doubts that I made the right calls or whether someone has gotten out on me ... No, it doesn't keep me up at night. I make the decisions I make based on the information/emotion that I have at the moment ... once I pull the trigger, there is nothing I can do but deal with the consequences; good or bad. If they be good, then SCORE; if they be bad, then DON"T DO THAT SHIT AGAIN.
Re-reading the thread ... it seems that you have been/are going through a trial that no doubt is made worse by a perceived lack of suort by a female that you care about. If that is the case, I feel for you. And offer, take a deep breath and get with yourself to figure out what is really going on with you.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)That's very perceptive. You're a smart guy. Went through is more like it. But I'm probably still getting over it.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)Amazing how worrying at night when the head hits the pillow isn't gender specific.
I can't begin to pretend that there isn't differences between the sexes and how we meet life and deal with issues. But... as has been pointed out by several in this thread. YOU can change the way you deal with life. YOU are capable of making choices that make you happier. It seems that, as an adult, you're much too concerned about others' opinions to change though. Your perception of yourself as a man seems to be tied into how others view what being a man is (I can in no way say you concretely act or feel that way but that's the gist I'm getting from your post).
In my early 20's, I had a moment where I realized I acted very much like my father, a loud, angry man. I made the decision at that moment to do everything in my power not to be that person. 20 years later, I can't remember the last time I raised my voice or got truly angry about something, let alone lashed out at people for no reason. We CAN change the way we act and interact in life. It's not always easy but it can be done.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm actually pretty mellow most of the time. I don't bully people just because I can. But never get angey? I don't see how that's possible. When I get mad, look out. I don't fuck around when I decide to get really pissed off. I'm not violent and get over it fairly quickly.
I can't fathom not get angry once in a while. Life can be very annoying at times. What do you do for a living?
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)I was told they were replacing me with a "real" web designer. Yes, that made me mad but I try not to get to the point where I used to, which was pretty destructive. When I talk about getting angry, I think of it in the terms of how I used to be. And when I feel myself getting to that point, I just take a deep breath and tell myself that destructive anger isn't a positive emotion.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm sorry you're going through that. I've been through some trying times with work as well. My last boss was an intense, Ron Paul worshiping jackass. His guys were all idiots because he had no respect for his employees. He liked me but he'd want you to drive to another job that was an hour away from the one you were on when there was no good reason for it. Went on vacation and forgot to pay everyone. Etc...
Since we're talking about temper, yeah, I went there. I got so pissed off when he didn't pay everyone a week before Hurricane Sandy and then wanted me to drive for an hour in a snow storm to get my check... Well, when I got home I drank a few beers and texted him and said FUCK RON PAUL.
I know I shouldn't be doing that in this economy but damn that felt good.
And that wasn't the last straw. The last straw was when he wanted me to fix a job his guys fucked up BAD. "Nope," I says, "I'm not gonna do it. Get the idiot who's responsible over here to fix it. Just looking at this mess freaks me out."
But yeah, not getting too angry in the future is definitely food for thought.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)There have been a few women in this thread too. It's been a very odd thread. Why is men feeling vulnerable so threatening? We're all vulnerable. We all have deep seeded fears. I feel like I'm talking to... Never mind.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)No ones stopping you.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm just saying we all have deep seeded feelings. Or in your case, plants.
Squinch
(59,522 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Just perplexed that you think any of this weight of the world shit doesn't apply to women too.
What gilded cage rare birds are you talking about? What century??
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)These are men who claim to know how toxic gender-based role assignment can be, specifically for men this would be obligate stoicism, bearing pain both emotional and physical without seeking help, evincing psychological independence and strength, economic self-support, etc. etc.
Yet they do not see how they are supporting that very thing by putting forth this idea that this OP is somehow self-pitying, beneath some expectation of "real man"-ness. They draw a line and expect all men worthy of the label to toe it. Failure to do so leads to mocking, derision, and dismissal.
Someone asked a question based upon their own curiosity, and has been called a troll, a self-pitying adolescent, met with derision and sarcasm, and why? Because "real men" don't ask questions like that. Real men already know.
So, at least in this case, he got the answer he was looking for. He fucked up. He posted on DU about something he was curious about but made the egregious mistake of approaching it from his own, decidedly male, perspective. And he got bounced on. Consequence. It may be a far cry from "men cannot fuck up, period", but score one in the "consequences, oh hell yeah" column on this particular occasion.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Proving his point, oddly.
JI7
(93,616 posts)ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)...are you suggesting that our society does not put the social pressure to fit in at a premium, and furthermore, are you also suggesting that people who are not "cool" don't find this a burden? Let's go a step further, do you think a person who feels burdened by their inability or clumsiness at fitting in, and really, therefore experiences social abandonment by one's peers is fodder for derision? Let's take it just one more step further, do you think it is precisely correct to further bolster this mentality by taking to task someone who chooses to speak of it openly?
This is definitely part of the burden, not the part about not being viewed as cool, but not finding much empathy for those realities, even among those who claim to know better than to throw specious, antiquated ideas of gender roles and gender identities around, such as the stereotypical stoicism required of "real men".
OP certainly got the answer to his question. He fucked up. He approached a point of his own curiosity from his own perspective and from that of a male, and on DU no less. And he (predictably) paid for it. In fact, everything pretty much went as I might have predicted, a few actual replies and a big pile of know nothing nonsense from people who had no intention of answering the question in any manner of good faith. What else is new?
While one does not a many make, I'm recording this fuck up/instant consequence occasion as circumstantial evidence for eventual affirmation of the OPs original conjecture.
JI7
(93,616 posts)don't see what that has to do with the burden of men or whatever the fuck the point trying to be made is.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)"This is a discussion forum"
Why yes, yes it is!
"Certain threads will always attract more criticism"
Well, I guess that made this pile-on OK then!
"Don't see what this has to do with the burden of men or whatever the fuck the point trying to be made is."
That's quite clear. Grasping the point didn't seem like your intent. But thanks for the confirmation. Cheers!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Squinch
(59,522 posts)
fishwax
(29,346 posts)It's like saying " Real) men don't (really) feel that way. They're just saying it to make women nod."
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... and something else when women are in earshot.
I try very hard to not be that person.
fishwax
(29,346 posts)
Maybe they're just saying those things among men to make men nod, to be seen as one of the guys, to avoid having their masculinity questioned by guys who think that men only say things like that to make women nod.
I try not to be that person, too. It doesn't change my point, though.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)What's really pathetic are those who don't abandon the act even when the audience is 4000 miles away behind a keyboard.
Most men put on shows for women, and some never outgrow it. For the most part, men don't give a shit what the other guys think about them, the nods of other men are only useful if those men are subordinates or people from whom you want money.
The OP was written about things that could have been discussed rationally among men. The guys ridiculing his manhood are playing entirely to the audience.
fishwax
(29,346 posts)It's weird that you're complaining about how men can't speak freely without having their motives/masculinity called out, when from my (male) perspective, you're doing exactly the same thing you're complaining about. If you want to dismiss someone's disagreement with the OP as simply trying to get laid or describe it as "pathetic," well, that's fine. It's not a surprising or unfamiliar attitude. And some guys will dance to that tune, because the idea that men don't perform for other men certainly doesn't mesh with my experience.
"The OP was written about things that could have been discussed rationally among men. The guys ridiculing his manhood are playing entirely to the audience."
So what audience are you playing to in ridiculing them? I dunno. Perhaps it could have been discussed rationally and perhaps not. But playing the "you're just trying to get laid" or "Don't be pathetic, drop the act, your intended audience isn't here" card wouldn't have helped in that regard.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Okay, mea culpa. Maybe I'm being a bit hyperbolic.
But I still believe that there are a large number of men on DU who have become invested in the idea that the best way to prove their progressive chops is to show their contempt for other men as loudly as possible - like in their signature.
I'm clearly not playing to any audience, if I were, the DU academy would nominate me for the worst actor in the history of acting.
I belong to the Rod Tidwell school; "You think we're fighting, when I think we're finally talking".
The empressof all
(29,106 posts)If my attempt to offer support and encouragement brought you greater pain and discomfort...I apologize. I think I now have a greater understanding of why things in life may be so confusing for you.
I wish you luck and hope you find the understanding you seek.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Nor need they be.
If I were to patronizingly advise you that your views on women's issues must be a huge burden of baggage to bear and that it's unfair that you personally have experienced all the things about which you write and that you should seek help, would you consider that helpful?
The same-sex couples I know don't have the same degree of fundamental disconnect that I see in hetero couples.
The empressof all
(29,106 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 12, 2013, 12:57 AM - Edit history (2)
He reported that his experience seemed wrought with discomfort and unrealistic expectations that seemed to bring unhappiness to his life. Since he felt this was a universal condition I only meant to reassure him that not all men feel this way. Not all women have PMS either... so Meh yes my comment was fair IMO and no where did I suggest he was disordered or needed therapy....Jeeze....
trumad
(41,692 posts)no net to catch us, can't confide,.......................................................no other options.
Did I miss anything?
What is it with you guys who continue to post this type of shit on DU.
Seriously--- this isn't the first poor poor pitiful me post from you or other aggrieved males on DU, most who hole up in that group that has the latest polls for the hottest celebrity.
What do you want from the women on DU? Do you think if they know men are tormented, men are a losers if they make a mistake, we die early------that it somehow levels the playing field?
Do you really go through your daily life shaking your head in despair because women just don't understand you?
If you do, I suggest you get help.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)or whatever your trip was before you became a radical male feminist. So what happened? Did you do some time? I've never used that word in a derogatory way. But I'm glad you went from cave man to HoF. Kind of poetic.
trumad
(41,692 posts)and that makes me a "radical feminist"?
So what if I'm a radical feminist....does that threaten you?
Again I ask....why all the poor poor pitiful me posts from you and your fellow members of the misbegotten Men's club.
Its fucking comical how much you boys complain about how tough it is to be a dude.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Never posted there.
You're right after all. It's easy being a man with no complexity and little depth. (Probably even easier down south. ) All you have to do is shut a few things down and go with the flow. Our roles should be defined and we should stick to them.
trumad
(41,692 posts)Same type of shit....
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm sure you posted some good ones. I probably just missed them.
midnight
(26,624 posts)you men all the more for it...
I was given this poem that a young man wrote about his father and it really lays out the tough job:
My Father’s Tongue
My name is Wladyslaw Burzynski.
My customers call me, George. I am de’ chef
from Poland. I came to dis’ coun-try terty’ years ago.
I wanted to believe dat’ what the Communists told me
about America was wrong. I worked tree jobs:
stretching in a tannery, cleaning a government
building, cleaning another building. I didn’t take lunch
so I could go to de’ next job, you know.
I open de’ restaurant on my honeymoon wit’
my modder’ and my wife. I working dis’ job
seventy hours, uhh, per de’ week since Octohhhber’
nine-teen-eighty-tree.’
I have nuh-ting’
except for de’ debbbt’
and two children
because I move
de’ restaurant to new
location to de’ bigger place
and safer neighborhood
becoz’ my clients were afraid
to come to me. My customers
are wonderful, but many of dem’
are wit’ de’ angels and maybe some
wit’ de’ devil, too. Simetimes’
I am tinking’ dat’ I only make
de’ money on der’ funeral
reception now. But dat’s’ okay.
Dat’s’ de’ life. My dream is oh-
ver. I see de’ tunnel
with lights coming.
De’ middle people
are my customers.
Dey’ haff’ trouble.
I don’t know if
middle class survive.
You step in de’ shit
you have to git’ out
yourself. I understand
why I am working all my life
for de’ shit and nuh-ting.’
I pay de’ tax for me and I pay de’ tax for G-E.
I have nuh-ting’
except two children
who love me.
http://peterburzynski.blogspot.com/2011/10/my-fathers-tongue.html
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)But you still gotta live with the consequences. You're encouraged to take risks, and take the lumps that go with failure. To a man, it is disrespectful to treat another man like a child and prevent him from taking risks.
The main blind spot for women is this: The mutual support network common among women and exemplified by DU doesn't exist for men. Men may reach occasional agreement, or be forced by circumstance onto the same team, but we are not a support network in the sense women understand it. This is why "but most CEO's are men" is nonsense as a metric of privilege - for every male CEO, there are 10,000 failed male CEO's. The winner knows that the 10,000 are losers, unfit to pass on their genes.
The winners aren't indifferent to the losers suffering, the are supportive of it.
Pro tip. No one works in the woods, or on a fishing boat, or on a roof "because they enjoy the outdoors". They'd all rather work at a nonprofit rescuing abandoned puppies, but they either already have mouths to feed, or need to demonstrate to a prospective spouse that they're capable of providing for a family.
ismnotwasm
(42,674 posts)My husband has multiple sclerosis. He is the best man I've ever known, but he's lost the ability to work, to hike, to run (he can still walk a certain distance, he can still drive.
It's a devastating disease. My husband feels like 'less of a man' because of the things he can't do. The conforming, traditional views of what a man should be and do are very damaging to his self esteem.
And He's my hero, he never gives in and he never gives up--which is in no way gender related, but a human condition certain people are graced with. I won't sit here and list all his virtues, but they are many, and it breaks my heart to see him down on himself over false gendered standards.
By the same token, He has an absolute right to grieve loss of abilities, without shame. He has that right, but its so hard for him to get there.
Apophis
(1,407 posts)It's not hard to be a man.
Being a woman is far more difficult.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Because when YOU feel this way (the rest of us don't and would rather you stop and ask someone who knows- god help you- maybe even a woman!! )... It leads to #2, the fucking up thing, which happens all the time. And yet men bounce back.
Maybe if you stopped all this navel gazing and snapped out of it, you'd realize that feminism would help you. Feminists sure as shit do not expect these things from you.
If you'd stop acting like a fucking robot and could try being honest and vocal about both your limitations and goals you'd be a lot less miserable.
The people who expect all that crap from you? Maybe your Dad, and the friends you were never authentic with to begin with.
Stop being a fucking stereotype.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)I hope you are.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)By men who think its actually expected that they're half assed answers are more welcome than women's contributions.
It's really okay to stop faking the expertise all the time- the rest of us can tell when it's hot air. We're just too polite to say so.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)Your post is illuminating and educational.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)And ask someone who does! The world would be a better place without the half baked answers some people pull out of their asses.
It's weird they think some believe they must have all the answers. How delusional!!
theKed
(1,235 posts)It's thick around here today.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)
nolabear
(43,850 posts)I don't know a whole lot of women who impose those rules on you. If you it's so terrible why do you do it?
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)Let's start with you generally cannot control your own body, then move on to unequal pay and then to all sorts of other discriminatory things.
As several others have already noted, it's tough being human. Generally speaking we inhabit a body of a particular gender, and do more or less well with society's expectations of us.
In 1969, when I was twenty years old, I had a co-worker, and African-American man who had recently retired after twenty or so years in the Army. The Women's Movement was just getting under way. Most companies (ours included) openly paid women less than men, and severely limited advancement opportunities. Ray really got it why we women were so unhappy about those things. I have no idea what kind of discrimination he must have put up with in his life, but he knew what it was like to have someone take one look at him and make automatic assumptions about his intelligence or abilities and not give him any kind of a chance to prove his worth. That's what we women put up with back then and even now.
It's probably no harder being a man than being a woman. Just different.
itsrobert
(14,157 posts)Sometimes it's hard to be a woman
Giving all your love to just one man
You'll have bad times
And he'll have good times
Doin things that you don't understand
But if you love him
You'll forgive him
Even though he's hard to understand
And if you love him
Oh, be proud of him
Cause after all he's just a man
Stand by your man
Give him two arms to cling to
And something warm to come to
when nights are cold and lonely
Stand by your man
And show the world you love him
Keep giving all the love you can
Stand by your man
Stand by your man
And show the world you love him
Keep giving all the love you can
Stand by your man
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 12, 2013, 02:11 AM - Edit history (1)
Taverner
(55,476 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)But then women get judged too on a lot of things.
Today that may be so, but traditionally, men had the choices and a lot more freedom. Now they are more equal and they don't like it. I don't buy that women really have advantages. Their previous "advantages" left with without much freedom. Today we do have more freedom.
It would also be better to be a "fuck-up" as at least you are judged by what you did, rather than judged first on how attractive you are, which is mostly genetics.
Morning Dew
(6,539 posts)
me b zola
(19,053 posts)We live in a patriarchal society, so if men are put upon...it is by man's hand. Meanwhile, at least 4 times an hour i see ads for pharmaceuticals for men to get an erection on television~while women's rights to real health care are being pushed back to early/mid 20th century.
Yeah, I'm all a twitter on how a male dominated society is treating its men so badly~~NOT!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)you are too funny.
miss meta?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I seek knowledge. Keep up with me if you can.
SmileyRose
(4,854 posts)
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And this thread is whining from a person over trivial 'burdens'
Much like a white person complaining that minorities have an unfair advantage in getting jobs and into college.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Men do have social pressures. Men are expected to make the first move. Men are expected to pay for the dates. And men are expected to make more money. Men are expected to be tough, macho, be leaders, and head of the household. Men are also expected to suppress their emotions and feelings.
We've put a lot of emphasis on pushing young girls to have higher education and shoot for higher career goals. And a lot of progress has been made in that, and that's good. But we have forgotten about our boys. You take a look at the statistics and boys are starting to struggle in school as schools have shifted teaching techniques and curriculum to favor girls. Now a lot of young men get into their 20s and feel somewhat lost. They've lost a lot of motivation. They don't quite know where they fit socially or professionally. It's starting to look like Japan's "lost generation" of the 1990s. Italy is starting to have this same issue where boys are living with their parents into their 30s and 40s. We are starting to see that here too.
[img]
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eridani
(51,907 posts)Jobs that pay enough to live on are no longer reserved for men. And those jobs increasingly require more education, traditionally thought of as an endeavor for sissies and women.
Response to UnrepentantLiberal (Original post)
Post removed
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)He said that what you wrote is true unless you learn as a man to let go of your ego.
That whenever you are knocked down and you are down, that all you have experienced seconds earlier becomes nothing more than part of an infinitely distant past.
And at the moment of getting up everything is brand new.
People may very well judge you by what you have done. But if your present being is real enough it becomes so strong that everything that happened before fades into the background.
Thanks for your post.
cali
(114,904 posts)"A man is not allowed to fuck up. Period. If you do you're a loser. We learn this from birth. You're either a fuck up or you're not. You and you alone have to have a solution to every problem. There is no other option."
According to whom? What do you mean by fuck up?
"These things torment us. Being a man is a subtle dance. A hair raising circus act at times with no net. We're not allowed to talk about it with each other, other than in subtle generalities. If you think your man is the exception and tells you everything he feels, you're wrong. He tells you what he knows it's OK to confide in you but knows from experience what to keep from you."
You certainly have the right to speak for yourself, but you don't have the right to speak for all men. And grab a clue: Plenty of women don't confide all to their partners or feel safe doing so. That's human nature.
And you don't know why men die on average, 5 years earlier than women. Yes, 5 years. Not the ten years that you claim:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy
In this country life expectancy is dropping for some demographics among women:
NEW YORK - A new study offers more evidence that life expectancy for some U.S. women is falling, a disturbing trend that experts can't explain.
The latest research found that women younger than 76 are dying at higher rates than in previous years in nearly half of the nation's counties - many of them rural and in the South and West.
For men, life expectancy has held steady or improved in nearly all counties.
The study is the latest to spot this pattern, especially among disadvantaged white women. Some leading theories blame higher smoking rates, obesity, and less education, but several experts said they simply don't know why.
Overall, women outlive men, as they have for generations. The latest numbers show the average life span for a baby girl born today is 81, and for a baby boy, it's 76.
http://articles.philly.com/2013-03-06/news/37473290_1_life-expectancy-mortality-rates-affluent-women
trumad
(41,692 posts)This is nothing more than a rinse and repeat post written by a poor misbegotten dude who has some serious issues with women. Hit the men's group and you will see plenty of this.
Don't forget to bring the tissues if you head over there. Not to wipe the tears mind you...you'll be wiping something else.
cali
(114,904 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I wanted to see what would happen if I went the other direction. I was right. Open hostility. Our roles are rigidly defined. Not just by men but by women as well.
trumad
(41,692 posts)This is standard fare for you and your gang in the Men's club.
Don't try and pass this off as some type of social experiment.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Never posted there. Not that I can remember. Have you posted to the feminist groups? (Other than to attack the men's group?)
cali
(114,904 posts)your op was so off the mark in the sense that you made gross generalizations about a complex subject that doesn't lend itself to that, and so divisive that people responded, to a large degree, in kind. What a shocker. Not.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)My OP was all true. I was just pointing out that men aren't the only ones who define our roles. Women have a hand in that as well. It's in our DNA.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)In addition to doing the grocery shopping. I hate cleaning toilets.
Locrian
(4,523 posts)But this:
" If you think your man is the exception and tells you everything he feels, you're wrong. He tells you what he knows it's OK to confide in you but knows from experience what to keep from you. "
Oh HELL yes!
Tien1985
(923 posts)And I've lived as a women, and for the last 8 years as a man (I'm not usually out and I pass). I'm paid more. I'm given more slack as a worker, a stranger and a parent. I'm given space. I'm allowed to be angry. When I express sadness or restraint, I am commended as being compassionate and "self aware". I am not doubting you experience life differently, but I have not found it hard being a man. About the only thing that drives me crazy is the assumption that because I'm male I must be stronger than all women, even when they are much taller and more muscular than I am. I'm 5'3 and not particularly athletic. If you're 5'8 and a gym bunny, you are stronger than I am. That doesn't make you less of a woman. In reverse, if you're a couch potato and a guy you aren't stronger just because you're taller and that doesn't make you less masculine. I see that as an effect of sexism, not of misandry. I'm not arguing that men don't experience sexism. But I find less sexism directed at me as a man than I did as a woman.
cali
(114,904 posts) Just wanted to put in my two cents before heading off to a boring day of work
RedstDem
(1,239 posts)I recommend it to all my lady friends.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)
redgreenandblue
(2,125 posts)The patriarchy punishes men for not living up to the masculinity standards which it sets.
What I find fascinating is that ultimately feminists and people concerned with men's rights in part want the same things, even though they phrase it differently. Feminists want equality. MRAs want women to "pull their own weight". Ultimately, both sides could benefit from recognizing that their struggle is a mutual one.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)That's very true. But it's not just men who enforce these rolls. Women do as well.
redgreenandblue
(2,125 posts)Which is one reason why the feminist dialog is important, regardless of whether men contribute anything to it or even are part of it.
I am a man. I support feminists, if for no other reason then out of self-interest. I struggled with gender identity during my early teen years and was punished for it by my peers. Likewise, my shittiest relationships were with women who had no interest whatsoever in leading independent lives and whose entire approach to life was directed at finding a provider.
trumad
(41,692 posts)What next---African Americans struggles are mutual to us white folks?
redqueen
(115,186 posts)Are you joking?
More men are unemployed than women. Even when both partners work, women do most of the housework, and childcare in households with children.
WTF?
MRA's whine about paying for dinner and having to make the first move. And that crap about making the first move hasn't been true since the 90's.
redgreenandblue
(2,125 posts)MRA isn't a monolithic thing.
redqueen
(115,186 posts)The closest they get is custody issues and even there the reason is patriarchal bullshit (men can't be expected to contribute to childcare duties because women are 'naturally better' at raising children).
This OP is a list of anti patriarchy complaints, yet when feminists point these issues out we are told that we are telling men they need to be 'fixed' or that 'something is wrong with men', which imo is just a load of fragile ego-serving nonsense.
redgreenandblue
(2,125 posts)MRAs like to complain that men get disfavored by divorce courts. While I do not know whether this is factual or not, assuming it were it seems plausible that this is a result of women being paid less, the court granting favors to the party which is financially behind. A straight forward solution to this would seem to be financial equality.
Speaking from my own experience, I can say that I have observed that many men are uncomfortable with their role in the patriarchy. It became manfifest for me the first time when I decided at the age of 12 that my hair would look better long. That was a bad thing in itsself, but I went one step further and cross-dressed as part of a stage-play. Bad idea... In later years, I had a girlfriend who lectured me that on pictures of us I wasn't "holding her the right way" i.e. not posing in an appropriately dominant fashion presenting her as a trophy. She also considered it insulting when I dared to suggest that she should pay for her own beer for once. Said relationship ended for those very reasons.
Just some things that I am throwing out there...
redqueen
(115,186 posts)Feminists get trashed as hairy legged man haters, but the truth is that we fight patriarchal gender norms and hate the patriarchy.
Women shouldn't have to shave their legs, many don't. Men shouldn't be expected to pose or pay for dates, and many don't. We are actually on the same side. I'm not sure why a small percentage of men can't seem to tolerate agreeing with feminists, so instead they pretend that all this patriarchal bullshit is somehow all women's fault. Women uphold the patriarchy too, sure, but not feminists.
MrScorpio
(73,772 posts)Really?
Oh well, the lament of the intrinsically privileged is always a hoot to witness.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)If I felt that way I'd be a Republican.
we can do it
(13,024 posts)or did you forget the sarcasm thingy?
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I don't want it to turn into a 600 post monster.
cali
(114,904 posts)UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)This thread is teatering on the edge of turning into a flame war. There's nothing stopping you from starting your own thread.
Notafraidtoo
(402 posts)Many of the things mentioned in this post I just don't see anymore other then television or books, I am in my early 30's and i just don't know anyone my age or younger that has these pressures anymore,I live in a med size city in a very red state and maybe things are changing for the better?
1.I can talk to my friends and mates about anything no matter how personal with out fear of being thought weak or forced into some gender stereotype.
2.Women let you know when they are into you,if they are not bold enough to approach you themselves and most are these days most are very adept at giving you more then subtle signs they are into you making a polite introduction very easy.
3.I never dated anyone that expected me to support them financially women these days have their own plans and don't need a man to support them, Its very freeing for both parties.
4.I have never felt the urge to give any negative judgment people may make about me a second thought,most judgments are purely based on a persons own insecurity, my generation knows that so those that judge are considered pathetic.
5.The expectations of tough guy or cant fail or you will be branded are not things i have ever experienced and my friends have never expressed to me,I have deep talks with everyone i am close with.
6. A common view in my circle growing up has always been being tough meant doing things even when you feared them like speaking truth to power or standing up for yourself,these are things both men and women can do.
7. As far as making sex interesting women in my generation tend to be every bit as comfortable with their sexuality as men,having no issues expressing what they like and saying what they don't, If you have been with more then 3 plus women which is far easier these days you find out that no two women are exactly the same in the bed room and what one may love another would not so much making each sexual encounter one of learning each other and communicating with one another. nothing better then when you know each other like the back of your hand good incentive to communicate .
Anyway i could be speaking too soon,maybe its where i live, or maybe its my situation but on the whole i don't see much of what you guys are talking about in the real world so maybe things are getting better.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)Words of wisdom.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Why are there so many single women? I think this outdated relic of chivalry is to blame and women should really find the intestinal fortitude to start doing some of the asking. IMO.
Th1onein
(8,514 posts)view men. I don't know where you get these ideas from, but you're wrong.
Tien1985
(923 posts)I really should be out of here (new rule, no DU in the morning) but I think this guy's article is relevant and could positively add here.
http://thoughtcatalog.com/2013/things-ive-learned-from-writing-under-a-gender-neutral-name/
cali
(114,904 posts)I would never say that I never met a man who got the difficulties of being female. that statement in and of itself demonstrates something rather ugly.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm just coming out of a bad relationship (they're all bad when they're ending) so that's coloring the way I feel right now. In a few months I'll probably be like a hippie offering people flowers.
I'm going to have to cut this thread off because I can't sit here all day fielding angry responses. But this thread has definitely given me food for thought.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I've never felt that it's been any more difficult to be a male than not. I've never felt collectively repressed, or held to a higher standard.
I've certainly screwed up many, many times yet have managed to prevent myself from being or becoming a loser-- I think maybe you're merely extrapolating your own personal experience onto everyone. Additionally, I think maybe you are again, simply projecting these personal torments of yours onto everyone else.
By chance of birth, I was born of a gender that has never known a systematic, collective or historical repression against it simply because of that gender-- that alone has made my life much easier than it otherwise may have been.
"two things I've never met a woman who truly understood..."
Possibly meeting more people would be in order, as that's certainly not the case for many men, myself included...
Good luck!
Orrex
(67,111 posts)is being pretty much anything else.
Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)It's the self-accepted male ethos. It's certainly not the traditionally understood feminine ethos. And to whatever extent women impose these pressures on men it is because some women have not questioned the masculine ethos assigned to men either. Even feminists can adopt the aggressive, posturing, masculine ethos for themselves but it doesn't make it any more correct.
Here is a great interview Naomi Wolf conducted in which she basically deconstructed part of the male ethic. In short, the male ethos is mostly grand-standing and senseless self-imposed risk taking.
http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/191618-1
The pressure can only be imposed on you if you accept the burden and worry about what people will say. Because that's basically what you're complaining about....what people will say. But people will say any number of things about you based on who you are...including a democrat. If the things they say about you being a democrat doesn't stop you from being one, why do the things people say about being a "man" stop you from living a life more centered and balanced between a masculine and feminine ethos?
After all, you are the product of a man and a woman, not two men.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)
actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)...a man. It also does it for woman. Both suck and both should be stopped.
If you try to be the better person and walk away from a fight there is a good chance that you will be deemed a coward. This was especially true from what I witnessed when I was with the infantry. Tons of testosterone, male bravado and youth has contributed to more fistfights and worse than anything else. You could be a fuckup, a shitbag and still recover from it but if you were deemed a coward, you were done in that unit.
A lot of this is caused by us males, and I don't have an answer. Too many john wayne movies? Or die hard movies? Or maybe just an alpha dog/pack mentality.
Male on male violence is a serious issue that requires serious discussion.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)like George W Bush, for instance.
UnrepentantLiberal
(11,700 posts)I'm putting this thread out of its misery. The more I look at it the dumber it looks. But some of the responses have given me new perspective on things. So thank you. It's had an impact on me.