Something I find troubling in the rape prevention discussion at DU

[arely staircase]

On the one hand, I certainly believe that we need to start educating young men and boys about the fact that 'no' means 'no.' If there are no rapists there is no rape.

However, there is an odd idea that seems to inform some opinions on the subject - and that is the notion that any amount of of common sensical advice on how to stay safe is blaming victims. Apparently if I don't tell my teenage niece to sleep with her doors unlocked and her windows open I am perpetuating a rape culture. I don't blame anyone but rapists for rape. I don't blame anyone but car thieves for car theft but I take my keys out of the ignition and lock the doors. Should I stop that? Am I blaming victims of car theft by doing that and encouraging others to do so? I think not. And so when I tell my niece to park in well lit areas I am not perpetuating rape culture, I am simply giving good advice, and hopefully help perpetuate her continued well-being.

So what do you think?

Encouraging potential victims to take crime prevention measures is:

18 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	A good idea and doesn\'t relieve the criminal of responsibility
	16 (89%)
	The same as blaming the victim a perpetuation of \'rape culture\'
	2 (11%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Egalitarian Thug]

1. OMFG.

[snooper2]

6. you couldn't pick one of the options?

[geek tragedy]

20. What men think of as crime prevention is vastly different than what

women would consider rape prevention.

People lock your car and home doors and windows to prevent crime.

Women have to avoid being alone in a room with any man ever to prevent rape.

Women don't need to be told to be careful in public. They know that shit already.

[Bay Boy]

21. Women don't need the advice

Women don't need to be told to be careful in public. They know that shit already.

but teens probably do.

[geek tragedy]

25. Teen boys and teen girls both need that advice--that's general

crime prevention advice.

We're talking about how to stop rape, though, and that crime is not one of those that can be prevented by caution and good sense.

[sufrommich]

33. Teenage girls are well aware of the potential

for rape,anyone who doesn't realize that has never been a teenage girl.

“When did you first feel like a grown woman and not a girl?” We wrote down our answers and shared them, first in pairs, then in larger groups. The group of women was racially and economically diverse, but the answers had a very similar theme. Almost everyone first realized they were becoming a grown woman when some dude did something nasty to them. “I was walking home from ballet and a guy in a car yelled, ‘Lick me!’” “I was babysitting my younger cousins when a guy drove by and yelled, ‘Nice ass.’” There were pretty much zero examples like “I first knew I was a woman when my mother and father took me out to dinner to celebrate my success on the debate team.” It was mostly men yelling shit from cars. Are they a patrol sent out to let girls know they’ve crossed into puberty? If so, it’s working.”
― Tina Fey

[pipi_k]

41. And some older women as well

My youngest sister nearly died in her mid 30s when, out at a club, someone slipped a date rape drug into her drink while she wasn't looking.

She stopped breathing twice on the way to the hospital, but survived.

[snooper2]

28. I didn't know you and Egalitarian were one in the same...

COOL!

[Egalitarian Thug]

170. We seem to have a wide range of issues we agree on as well as more than a couple

of which we are vehemently opposed.

Neither of which alters the fact that this post/poll is dimwitted to the point of obscenity and I believe purposely offensive.

[unblock]

2. i think the problem is the implication tha results from not fully explaining the context as you did.

the problem is not giving crime prevention advice to potential victims per se; the problem is doing that *and stopping there*.

if you are clear that no one is at fault but the criminal, then that lays the proper context, and so in that context the advice is reasonable. if you are clear that steering would-be criminals away from crime should also be a big part of the overall solution, then in that context the advice is reasonable.


i think the problem is just giving potential victims advice and then doing nothing to change the impression that then it is all on the potential victim -- and therefore their "fault" if the do in fact become a victim.

[arely staircase]

10. yesterday

there was an interesting story about weirdo hackers who get into women's computers and harass/spy on them. when people offered common sense advice on how to protect one's self against such weirdos (covering your camera for one thing, btw), there was quite a bit of poo-pooing from the usual quarters. the emphasis was in the wrong place. well i disagree, i think there will always be voyeuristic freaks in this world. i will tell my niece to cover her camera and vote for people who will pass laws and impose proper sentences on such weirdos. i don't think in that case that there is any culture changing or weirdo educating needed. you are either a freak that spies on women or you are not. if you are, it is your fault and nobody else's. nobody but you should be blamed or punished. having said that, women (and men) cover those cameras when not in use.

[geek tragedy]

13. Why do you suppose it's only men victimizing women--i.e. not

women victimizing other women, women victimizing men, or men victimizing men, in that kind of cyber violation of another human being?

That's the rape culture being unleashed. Those 'weirdo hackers' don't grow up in a vacuum. They weren't born that way.

[arely staircase]

15. i think many (weirdo hackers) do grow up in a vaccuum

a lack of involved parenting is often a factor in such things, though not an excuse for their behavior.

[geek tragedy]

16. Many women grow up in the same vacuum. Why aren't they

out there keeping male 'sex slaves' online?

[Bay Boy]

24. Because men and women are different...

...if you took porn for an example. Many men would want "wham bam thank you mam" sex. Women would want a little seduction portrayed prior to the sex act.

[geek tragedy]

29. We're talking about sexual predators exercising power and dominance

and control, not people seeking different temporal avenues to sexual gratification.

[Bay Boy]

51. You asked:

"why aren't women keeping male sex slaves?" And I responded that (most) men
look at sexual relations differently than women.

[geek tragedy]

54. You're agreeing with the rape culture argument.

You're saying that men's beliefs and priorities for sex inclines them to be rapists and sexual predators in a way that women's do not.

The obvious question is how do we counterprogram men to not be that way.

That men are different than women is only part of it. That the way men are leads to this kind of abuse indicates men need to be improved.

[loli phabay]

26. erm some of them are.

[geek tragedy]

36. Erm, someone (i.e. you) didn't read the article in question.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/rat-breeders-meet-the-men-who-spy-on-women-through-their-webcams/

Meet the men who spy on women through their webcams

In case one cares to read past the headline:

Man I feel dirty looking at these pics," wrote one forum poster at Hack Forums, one of the top "aboveground" hacking discussion sites on the Internet (it now has more than 23 million total posts). The poster was referencing a 134+ page thread filled with the images of female "slaves" surreptitiously snapped by hackers using the women's own webcams. "Poor people think they are alone in their private homes, but have no idea they are the laughing stock on HackForums," he continued. "It would be funny if one of these slaves venture into learning how to hack and comes across this thread."

But thank you for yet another attempt to misleadingly claim that men are just as likely to be victimized by women as the other way around. Maybe that crap flies with Team MRA, but not in the real world.

[mythology]

152. How unfortunate for you that this isn't the only article on the subject on the internet

The unsuspecting men described how they met women on online dating sites and were encouraged to strip down and get naughty over the course of a webcam date. Once deemed to have captured the man in a sexually compromising position, the woman threatens to unleash footage of the act online unless he pays up.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/life/blackmailed+online+scam+Gatineau+police+warn/8057073/story.html

http://www.indystar.com/article/20130308/NEWS02/303080020/Indianapolis-man-s-webcam-rendezvous-leads-blackmail-attempt?nclick_check=1

http://www.kctv5.com/story/21232820/police-naked-scammers-seduce-blackmail-men-on-web

This is of course in addition to the fact that you blatantly falsely claimed that the poster you're replying said that women are just as likely as men to commit such acts and you are reduced to tossing out insults by misplaced association by calling the person a MRA.

Perhaps next time before you claim authority based on one or two instances, you could try doing some research for other information even if it doesn't fit your world view. Or you could continue to throw out insults.

[HangOnKids]

50. Really?

Want to provide some proof for this?

[geek tragedy]

57. It's the standard MRA argument--any time a discussion

of male-on-female rape culture and behavior is dicussed, they have to jump in with "it goes the other way too" without evidence to support them.

Because to accept that men systematically violate women in a way that women do not towards men is to admit the existence of a patriarchy, male supremacism, and a misogynistic rape culture.

[HangOnKids]

64. Let's see if loli answers n/t

[geek tragedy]

70. Signal has gone up to the Bat Cave. nt

[BainsBane]

96. Have I told you lately

how much I appreciate you?

[Whisp]

141. That sounds like the Anderson Cooper line: but, but, both sides do it!

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. a) because you're a bad person by virtue of being a man. Is that the answer you were looking for?

b) because you're operating from the DU definition of "victimize".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11145659#post107

[bettyellen]

110. You just ignored the context AGAIN when it was pointed out to you...

You chose to completely ignore her kind explanation. Please go back and reread her post. You'd gain some insight.

[joeglow3]

93. Sadly, my automatically assume negative intent

In the past month or so, there was a discussion on revenge porn sites. Some people advocating never letting someone take and own pictures of you naked. In my opinion, this is common sense. Why is the assumption automatically that I am blaming the victim if I don't caveat the heck out of it?

[unblock]

133. if you want to avoid listeners making unfortunate assumptions, you have to lay the context carefully

[gollygee]

136. What rubs people the wrong way

is when all or most of the discussion seems to be on how to avoid it, and there is comparably little discussion about the fact that it's wrong. When we see over and over again, "Don't let people take naked photos of you" and particularly when women who do allow their boyfriends/husbands take naked photos of them are called stupid (as I seem to remember they were called by some people in that thread), then we start to feel like the women are being blamed. "Who would be stupid enough to . . . " I believe you when you say you didn't say that, and I also believe that you felt no blame for the victims. It's more about how the thread as a whole came off.

Now if we read something like, "The people who did this are wrong and this should be illegal if it isn't. Given the world we live in, women might think carefully about X, Y, and Z," it wouldn't feel so much like everyone is only thinking about what women should do to stop it from happening and not at all about the fact that people shouldn't hurt people like that in the first place.

So in your case, it's probably that you were in a thread that had a pretty ugly tone, and that it's harder to read tone in writing than in spoken language. If your tone wasn't clearly different from the people suggesting women were stupid to ever let someone take their picture, people might have mistakenly read your post with the same tone as the unpleasant ones. I've had my tone misread too, and it always shocks me. "Wait, no, that's not what I meant!"

[joeglow3]

143. Honestly, there is probably little discussion because ALL rational people agree it is wrong

Once a fact is accepted, why the need to waste time dwelling on what we all know is true?

[Recursion]

3. Car theft isn't tied in with shame on a cultural level or used as an instrument of control

Rape is.

[arely staircase]

11. while true, that in no way makes rape prevention advice any less valuable

than car theft prevention advice - in fact i believe it is more valuable as i think any reasonable person would rather have their car stolen than be raped.

[boston bean]

169. maybe women need alarms for their privates!

ones that notify the police if breeched! Sort of like onSTAR.

For those who need to be clued in.. this is sarcasm.

[Sheldon Cooper]

4. You are oversimplifying this.

No one believes that women and girls should not be taught commonsense safey and situational awareness. In fact, that is excellent training for everyone.

The problem is that rape is the ONLY crime in which the victim's actions, or lack of actions, allows the criminal to go free. No mugger, or robber, or murderer, is permitted to go free simply because his victim made a simple mistake, or was distracted for even one second, or was simply in the wrong place at the wrong time. Those criminals are still going to jail. But it happens with rapists, and it happens a lot.

There is a certain level of frustration that you and others are not getting when this is discussed. Instead of spending so much time on 'educating' women, and then picking apart their every move when they are assaulted, start educating men to stop raping. Just stop raping.

[geek tragedy]

9. Also, most robberies and muggings aren't from coworkers or dates.

Not much good to lock your house and car when you're in a room alone with the rapist-because you don't know he's a rapist.

[Sheldon Cooper]

12. Excellent points, as usual.

[Recursion]

14. People don't consent to having their car stolen or getting beaten up

People do consent to sex. That's part of what makes sex crimes different from other crimes. There are some voices that tend in an unfortunate spectrum towards outright rape apology along the lines of "women should learn to say no more clearly than many do". There's possibly merit to that idea, but then again it's so tied in with the culture that makes no difficult to say to begin with that it's hard to raise it constructively. Sigh.

[arely staircase]

18. people don't consent to let others use their cars? really?

eom

[unblock]

23. this is a bit fatuous. most car theives are not acquaintances claiming they thought they had consent

[arely staircase]

32. i was responding to the comment that

"people don't consent to have their cars stolen." i think that needs to be re-thought on the poster's part as consenting to let one use one's car means it isn't theft, just as consenting to sex menas it isn't rape. the poster was trying to draw a distinction when they were in fact pointing out a similarity.

[unblock]

43. this really adds nothing to your previous post.

is the proper context really still unclear after reading my previous post?


someone else uses your car -- 99.999% of the time, it's really clear and obvious (both to the driver, the owner, and everyone else) whether this was with or without consent.

someone else has intercourse with you -- what may be an obvious "no" to the woman goes through a jumbled mess of cultural programming and often comes out a "yes" by the time it reaches the rapist's brain and/or everyone else who hears about it.

yeah, ok, the context wasn't completely spelled out in "people don't cosent to have their cars stolen" but so what, really?

[Recursion]

55. Actually there are some grey areas around car theft from known parties

It's not always clear when a car was stolen vs. borrowed. But that confusion never lets a car thief get off free.

[arely staircase]

104. consent makes it not car theft, not rape, etc.

consent is often a factor in car theft cases. i guarantee you that if you go check the docket at your nearest criminal court you will find someone up on charges of driving a car whose owner they knew and who they very much claim, and will present as their defense, gave them consent to drive. that is very, very common.

and just as in cases of rape, thinking you had consent "he didn't say i couldn't drive his car" probably isn't going to cut it as a defense.

[Sheldon Cooper]

35. Of course they don't consent to being mugged or robbed, either.

That's ridiculous, but here's the difference: if a wealthy man in a fancy suit and waving around a wad of bills gets drunk out of his mind at a bar, and then staggers off down the street, where he is set upon by a gang of ruffians and beaten and robbed, everyone will tell him he was stupid - but no one will let the muggers go free because he was too stupid to follow simple safety guidelines.

If a woman gets drunk out of her mind (or roofied) and passes out, the man who rapes her will claim that she consented simply because she showed up, and therefore he should be set free. And quite often he is. It's already happening in the Steubenville case, where the victim was CLEARLY unable to consent, and yet the defense lawyers are insisting that she did. We even had a poster right here on DU state that she has a "past" and therefore it's going to be hard to get a conviction. Imagine that, if you will - a 16-year old girl has a "past", and therefore the chips will fall where they may. Too bad for her, she shouldn't have left her house and allowed herself to be roofied. We all know girls with a "past" will do these things. Sarcasm.

I don't know if people get the full scope of how maddening this is, so telling women to observe simple safety tips as if that'll solve the problem is just so fucking tiring.

[geek tragedy]

46. "he didn't say 'you can't have my money'"

That defense has never worked at trial, so far as I can tell.

[Sheldon Cooper]

56. Yes - he didn't clearly refuse to hand over his money,

or explicitly say he didn't want to be beaten up, so really, how could my poor client know he didn't want those things??? Ladies and gentlemen of the jury - you must acquit!!

Nah, not gonna happen.

[unblock]

22. part of it is that education of the would-be criminal is likely to be more effective for this crime.

educating people not to murder or steal would be a waste of time and effort, as virtually anyone old enough to murder or steal has a pretty damn good idea that it's wrong and illegal. they don't do it for want of an education regarding the nature of the crime. so for such crimes, the ONLY thing worth doing is educating the potential victims regarding appropriate security measures.

rape is different. sure, the stranger rapist knows it's wrong and a crime, but most rapes are acquaintance rapes, and many rapists think the line is far away from where it actually is. many rapists will take a certain look or apparel or flirt as all the "yes" they think they need, because there are many such messaging in our culture.


actually, i shouldn't call it "education", because it's not like we're starting with a blank slate. "re-eduction" or "de-programming" might be more like it, to undo the pro-rape messages they get all too much of.

[Xithras]

27. I'm pretty sure that all men are taught not to rape.

That's the problem with the entire "teach men not to rape" argument. I have never, in my entire life, met a man who was unaware that rape was wrong. I can't think of a single time in my entire life when I thought that rape was "OK".

We're taught not to murder too. We're also taught not to beat up old ladies or molest little children. These are some fairly core cultural values that are instilled in pretty much every boy from childhood.

Some people are just uncaring, evil assholes. You can be taught not to rape, or murder, or assault, and then still go out and do them anyway. No amount of education in the world is going to change the behavior of a sociopath who simply doesn't care. The men who can be taught not to rape already don't rape. Those who do are largely irredeemable, and sitting them down in a classroom for a few hours isn't going to change that.

[Recursion]

31. Men are not all taught what "rape" is, though

To the extent of being unable to imagine that the terrified woman they are having sex with didn't consent.

[pipi_k]

65. That's the trouble

with being a socio/psycho path.

Such people do not possess the ability to empathize with others.

There's nothing we can do about people like that besides being able to identify them at an early age, and then what....

Lock them up for crimes they may or may not commit in the future?

Would people be willing to do that...or worse...in order to eradicate potential rapists from the world?

I don't know the answer to that.

[Recursion]

68. I don't know that it's a pathology; it's just what men (and women, for that matter) are taught

This doesn't even get to the whole mindf**k by which some women feel like they have to "resist" to not feel guilty for having sex. Sigh.

[LanternWaste]

77. I believe we on DU had a poster who wrote an OP to the effect of...

"I'm pretty sure that all men are taught not to rape...."

I believe we on DU (in Meta about three or four months ago) had our very own member who wrote an OP to the effect of: "I didn't know it was rape at the time, but it seems I was guilty of rape...", and rationalized his behavior at the time by saying most guys did the same things at the time, it was part of the culture, etc.

Seems to me that if he was indeed taught what rape was, he certainly slept through those classes.

[BainsBane]

94. Exactly, and that demonstrates why education is necessary

Even if one assumes the rapist himself is impervious to education, his friends can and should be taught to intervene, to denounce assaults rather than high five them. If bullying campaigns can work, why can't rape education measures?

[arely staircase]

105. now THAT i believe has potential as a public awareness campaign directed at changing attitudes

so could publicizing the criminal penalties for slipping something in a drink or not getiing clear consent.

i have seen, though, too-clever-by-half campaigns with rape prevention advice like "don't put something in someone's drink." which makes a point but doesn't otherwise help in any way.

let people know that being in the high-fiving crowd could lead to charges in and of itself given the high fivers' knowledge during the commission of any crimes or the assistance such as a ride from the club with a knowingly drugged victim.

[redqueen]

106. That's a joke, right?

The 16-year-old girl in Steubenville was carried around so they could rape her at more than one location. It was filmed by more than two people.

Only two boys are charged, and there's no guarantee even they will be punished.

In New York, a 15-year-old was gang raped in her classroom, with a teacher present. The boys weren't even charged.

And you think anyone will believe there's any chance accomplices would be punished? Really?

We don't need laws to make it harder to get away with raping women. We need to work on creating a culture that respects and values women. Too often women are viewed as sex objects. Things to be used for sex.

[arely staircase]

111. notwithstanding any two cases

as NOT enforcing the law is a bad thing, if that is the case in either situation.

a public relations campaign aimed at potential perps, which is precisely the kind of "don't put the onus on the potential victim" approach i believe you support, would be most effective if it let would be rapist know they will be punished and what that punishment could be. obviously we agree that actual punishment should be expected, again, notwithstanding any two cases.

[bettyellen]

116. In going to disagree and say we need both...

I think one reason rape us so prevalent is that it can be so easy to get away with.

[redqueen]

118. As long as cops and judges, both male and female, have internalized patriarchal beliefs,

laws can only help so much.

Of course I'm not saying that laws are useless. Or even sufficient (e.g. the case in California where a sleeping woman was raped, but the law didn't consider it rape due to some outdated law.).

I'm saying the work we have to do goes far beyond laws.

As of now, you tell an accomplice he'll be punished, and you'll be laughed at. Everyone knows how few rapists are punished. Credible threats of punishment against accomplices are a pipe dream at this point.

[bettyellen]

146. Oh agreed, totally.

[pacalo]

173. No, it wasn't a joke; it was a thoughtful, sincere response intended to engage in --

what your ilk has claimed for a year to be sorely lacking in everyone else with a different viewpoint -- a meaningful discussion that might draw you nearer in understanding.

I'm not even sure that you're replying to arely staircase's post because, otherwise, your thought process seemed to have derailed before you gave yourself a chance to have allowed arely's valid, positive points to register before shooting from the hip. You didn't address his post at all; furthermore, his suggestions would in no way "make it harder to get away with raping women."

Then, you go on, adding, "Too often women are viewed as sex objects. Things to be used for sex." If I dropped in just to scan the header lines throughout this thread, then got reeled into your post by the "You're joking, right?" hook without first reading arely's post, I'd have gotten the impression that the purpose of your post was to shame someone who 'doesn't get it!1!'

We really do have two realities; if your post was indeed meant for someone other than arely staircase, I apologize & will self-delete.

[Melon_Lord]

108. I just don't see why it has to be one or the other...

Ladies.. Lock your doors, watch your drinks, and travel with friends when possible...

Men... Anything short of "Let's do it..." doesn't count

[Hestia]

166. Have you seen the posters from the Edmonton AB "Don't Be That Guy" poster campaign?

Since guys keep whining that they don't know where the line is, I highly suggested that we all pool our money and blanket the US with these posters. (Yes, I said whining.)

http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2013/01/08/rape-prevention-aimed-at-rapists-does-work/

http://www.savedmonton.com/about-our-campaigns.html

There has been a drop in reported rapes after these posters are posted in bus stops, bar restrooms, etc.

"Just Because She's Drunk Doesn't Mean She Wants To F*@K" - very strong statement!

[pipi_k]

53. It would be nice

if the issue were that simple

start educating men to stop raping. Just stop raping.

As if it's all just a big misunderstanding. As if education will take care of the problem.

If power and control are the driving forces behind rape, it's going to take a whole lot more than just education.

It's going to take mental health counseling. And long before the boy grows up and passes his beliefs on to his own sons.

Some men are psychopaths, even. Education isn't going to help them, and perhaps not even counseling, if there's something physiologically wrong with their brains.

So the command to men, "Just stop raping" is, IMO, pretty useless.

[Recursion]

59. People say "it's power, not sex" as if those two things are easily distinguished

Education can't stop all rape; it can stop some. Even just the "don't be that guy" posters seemed to have a pretty dramatic impact.

[pipi_k]

67. Well you have

a point, I guess.

It probably is hard to distinguish between the two.

[BainsBane]

90. Absolutely

It astounds me how people read posts and decide to take them defensively, while ignoring most of what is written.

[arely staircase]

100. the actions of others often very much play a role in the prosecution of other crimes

as they go to the mind frame of the accused - which is often an element of a crime as charged.

if i am accused of stealing your car and my lawyer can convince the jury that there is at least a reasonable possibility you lent it to me, that is germain and will be heard about at trial. if I am arrested for punching you in the face and my lawyer can show you were coming at me with a knife at the time, that is germain and will be hears about a trial also.

now i understand the statistical likelihood a rape victim knowing their attacker as well as the archaic stigma attached to it. but at the end of the day those are distinctions with little difference when it comes to such concepts as rights of the accused, fair trials, etc.

if you think that i am opposed to teaching boys the consequences of their actions and exactly what their family, society, the law, etc expect and demand of them, then you miss my point. my point is that these things (risk reduction and blame applied to the perp) are NOT mutually exclusive.

now some of the supposed messages for men and boys i find useless. if you are 21 years of age and all of a sudden a poster or a billboard changes your mind about the ethics of slipping someone a drug in their drink, you are a rare individual. now maybe a billboard that tells you exactly how much time in the pen you can get for doing it - that would be worthwhile.

[sufrommich]

5. Your niece doesn't need to be told

to lock her door or stay out of dark alleyways. Do men really believe that women need to be told to be wary of strangers or other common sense crime prevention tactics any more than men do?Women understand from a very early age that their gender puts them at greater risk for rape.Rape is more often committed by someone a victim knows,why ignore that?

[KittyWampus]

7. advice about how to "stay safe"…. if it's a boyfriend who turns out to be abusive… advice is useless

So the advice that might come into play is how to defend yourself.

Yes, there are strategies to avoid this and that. But that advice won't help in most instances of rape (it's very often someone we know).

[arely staircase]

19. so advice to prevent stranger rape is therefore uneeded? bad?

eom

[Recursion]

30. It's like focusing on random mass shootings. Possibly useful, but completely irrelevant...

... to 99% of the problem.

[arely staircase]

37. except for the fact that advice to prevent stranger rape

also helps prevent mugging, burglary, car theft and any number of things that are easier for a criminal to pull off when the doors are unlocked, the area is poorly lit, potential victims aren't practicing situational awareness, etc.

and rape prevention advice applies to date rape as well - don't leave your drink unattended, etc.

still puts the blame on only the perp.

[arely staircase]

44. no not really

•Do not let alcohol or other drugs decrease or interfere with your ability to take care of yourself and make sensible decisions.
•Do not accept beverages from someone you don't know and trust. Always watch your drink and never leave it unattended, at any time.
•Follow your instincts. If a place or the way your date acts makes you nervous or uneasy, get out. If you need to call a friend to escort you home, don't hesitate to do so.
•Check out a first date or a blind date with friends. Meet in and go to public places. Don't leave a social event with someone you have just met or don't know well.
•Carry money for a phone call or taxi, or, better yet, take your own car.


http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Crime_Prevention/Violence/Date_Rape/

[geek tragedy]

8. It's an artifact of rape culture to believe that women can prevent most rapes.

Stranger rapes are rare compared to acquaintance rapes. Rather than the creep on the street, more likely it'll be the coworker, the guy she meets at a party, a date, a boyfriend, a husband.

What are you supposed to tell her, other than "don't be alone with any man in a room or a dark public area ever?"

That's not crime prevention, that's living in a state of constant fear. And that's the only way women can 'prevent' rape.

Only men can prevent most rape--by not doing it.

And it starts with fathers raising sons and peers informing peers that "no means no" is a bare minimum--you need to have zero doubt and zero reason to doubt that she's consenting. None of this "well, she didn't say no" or "well, she sent mixed signals" rape apologist bullshit that gets peddled by some men in society, including here.

[Little Star]

17. +1

[JustAnotherGen]

39. +2

And I'm getting creeped out by the focus on stranger rape.

For women:

•High rates of sexual violence, stalking, and intimate partner violence were reported by women.
◦Nearly 1 in 5 women has been raped at some time in her life.
◦One in 4 women has been a victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in her lifetime.
◦One in 6 women has experienced stalking victimization during her lifetime in which she felt very fearful or believed that she or someone close to her would be harmed or killed. Much of stalking victimization was facilitated by technology, such as unwanted phone calls and text messages.
•Almost 70 percent of female victims experienced some form of intimate partner violence for the first time before the age of 25.
•Approximately 80 percent of female victims of rape were first raped before age 25.
•Female victims of violence (sexual violence, stalking, intimate partner violence) were significantly more likely to report physical and mental health problems than female non–victims.
•Across all forms of violence (sexual violence, stalking, intimate partner violence), the vast majority of victims knew their perpetrator (often an intimate partner or acquaintance and seldom a stranger).

http://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2011/p1214_sexual_violence.html


There are also factoids and stats on male victims of violence at that CDC link but since once again a thread is about how FEMALES (grown women, teenagers, 10 year old little girls) should do a better job of not getting raped I'm only addressing the female statistics. The female stats that show THE VAST MAJORITY OF VICTIMS KNEW THEIR PERPETRATOR.

Cue the Greek Chorus anyways - some guy will come in here and say: SEE! It CAN be done! Fewer males are Reported Victims of sexual assault. So you should all be like us and do what we do.

[LanternWaste]

128. That boggles my mind.

"One in 4 women has been a victim of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in her lifetime..."

That simply boggles my mind; and rather aptly illustrates the absurdity of me (for example) advising women to be more careful, or lock doors, or watch what they wear... because not one of those is relevant to abuse and violence committed by a partner.


Sigh. That list of stats has me sad.

[arely staircase]

42. glad you asked

•Do not let alcohol or other drugs decrease or interfere with your ability to take care of yourself and make sensible decisions.
•Do not accept beverages from someone you don't know and trust. Always watch your drink and never leave it unattended, at any time.
•Follow your instincts. If a place or the way your date acts makes you nervous or uneasy, get out. If you need to call a friend to escort you home, don't hesitate to do so.
•Check out a first date or a blind date with friends. Meet in and go to public places. Don't leave a social event with someone you have just met or don't know well.
•Carry money for a phone call or taxi, or, better yet, take your own car.


http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Crime_Prevention/Violence/Date_Rape/

[geek tragedy]

45. And the point goes straight over the person's head.

"Don't drink and avoid being in a room alone with a man."

Now, what is your proposal for making boys less likely to grow up to be date rapists?

[arely staircase]

47. parenting

that teaches them no means no. and if you are not sure if there is consent, there isn't.

[geek tragedy]

49. It goes beyond parenting, though. Why does NY state have

guidelines on how women can supposedly avoid date rape but no message for men on how to not be a rapist?

It would be one thing if "absence of yes means no" were what most men learn, but it's not what they learn.

[Recursion]

61. That's one thing I didn't like about "No means no"

Rather than "Yes, and nothing else, means yes"

[arely staircase]

72. i think ny state's message to potential rapists is expressed in its penal code

as is its message to all other potential criminals.

[joeglow3]

95. Why does it have to be either/or

Why not both?

[JustAnotherGen]

107. What if it

Is a Sibling, Father, Step Father, Step Sibling, Uncle, Grandparent, Cousin, Teacher, Coach, Mentor, . . .

That list doesn't have those MUCH more likely scenarios . . .

[arely staircase]

112. unfortunately, incestual rape

is going to be hard to prevent, outside of preventing from continuing once it starts. this is especially true when it involves small children and adults. i guess in those cases the best we can do is train professionals like teachers to look for troubling signs and obligate them to report it - which we do, how well is another story.

[gollygee]

119. According to that list

I can never drink.

I can never use the bathroom, because doing so means my drink will be unattended. I can't have my date attend it, because this is date rape we're talking about.

I have to follow some vague instincts. Spidey sense or something.

Women are often raped by men they know very well, have dated for some period of time, or are married to. But women KNOW to meet guys the first few times they go out. Still, we had a thread here on DU where a woman had the crap beaten out of her and people were shocked her date knew where she lived after only a couple of weeks, which equals a few dates. She was blamed for not following the rule WELL ENOUGH when she did follow the rule! That is a really good example of the problem with focusing on educating women. Even if we do follow the advice, we STILL get blamed. We didn't do it well enough! What were we thinking letting him know where we lived?

Trust me that women always have run money on them if they go out anywhere. No one needs to be educated about that. The world educates us. (At least we called it "run money" when I was in college ages ago. Not sure what it's called now.)

[redqueen]

121. Great post...

Thanks for mentioning that case and the way it was treated here.

[arely staircase]

125. i don't see "never drink" on that list

and of course there will always be rape..and war...and disease, etc. because people follow medical advice and still get sick or try to avoid war and still get attacked doesn't mean everyone should stop following medical advice or seeking peace.

now we can reasonably disagree about how to avoid rape, pestilence, war, etc. but to argue that because women still get raped, they should just throw caution to the wind and never take any precautions in life against life's volent felons, is not something with which i can agree.

[gollygee]

132. I assume you aren't intentionally missing the point

You must just be plain old missing it.

First, the list said to not let alcohol or drugs impair your ability to make good choices or something along those lines. That means if I get raped, I'll be asked if I was drinking. If I say yes, then the alcohol must have impaired my ability to make good choices.

See, we've all been there. Or at least I bet most women have. We've been stalked and had people ask what we were wearing, or what we said to the stalker, or whether we were clear we didn't want contact. We've been raped and asked whether we voluntarily went somewhere with him or whether it was really rape, or if we want to sleep on it and think about it for a while longer. We've all heard something like that. We've all seen how it ends up, and we all know that we end up getting blamed.

But the bigger point, and what you're missing, is that the things I see on lists like this fall into two categories: things we all know because we exist in this world as women because you can't help but know it, or things that won't make any difference but will make it difficult to live in the world at all. Don't leave your drink? That means don't drink and/or don't go to the bathroom, ever. Don't allow alcohol to impair your thinking? That means don't drink any alcohol ever, because it takes very little alcohol to impair your thinking, particularly if you are a small college-aged young woman. And no matter how good a job we do following the list, we'll still get blamed because people will call us out on the points of that list. "Did you have anything to drink? Did you see the list that said to be careful not to allow alcohol to impair your decision making skills? Well then why did you drink?" I don't know if people think of it as blame when they ask these questions, but it really is. It is shifting the responsibility to us.

[arely staircase]

135. the existence of sexual predators clearly imposes an unfair burden on women in that regard

i will admitt it is not fair. things can be done to change the so-called 'rape culture' in which boys hi-five while driving the drunk girl around to get raped. please understand that i undertand that. my point is that even once the best of all paradigm shifting cultural changes have taken place and everyone is in agreement on what consent is the likes of what we are seeing in stuebenville is a thing of the past, there will always be those predators. and cautioning possible victims as to how they can make themselves a less likely target will always make sense. fair has little to do with it when the stakes are so hi. i too have been the victim of violent crime, of a non-sexual nature. precautions i take now that i didnt take before impart no guit to me. shame on anyone who sees that otherwise.

[gollygee]

137. I'm still not making this clear

It isn't that I'm bothered by women knowing what to do. It's the context in which i see these lists. I see threads where women are blamed for things women shouldn't be blamed for, I hear in real life and in newspapers women blamed for stuff they shouldn't be blamed for, I see very little focus at all on the people doing the things they shouldn't be doing and a ton of focus on the things women should be doing so people won't do things to them. In the context, it feels like victim blaming, and I've seen people respond to it in that way - I've seen it lead to victim blaming. That doesn't mean that women don't need to know what to do. It means we don't need that told what women should do to not be victims over and over again without hearing any focus at all on the people doing the victimizing. And we know that the focus as it is leads to victims being blamed. And furthermore that the lists are usually padded full of things that are impractical or wouldn't make any difference.

[arely staircase]

140. i can't disagree with anything you have written

on the one hand you find the lists of advice for potential victims offensive but on the other hand you see them as necessary.

i can't disagree with that and don't think i have said otherwise. clearly i am putting WAY more infasis on the necessary end of things. the offensiveness of their stand-alonishness, absent a message to would-be perps i have come to learn here today. but as long as we agree that continuing to educate women about risk reduction is important, even if offensive, then we have never been in disagreement. and i have come to see your point on the lopsidedness of it.

[gollygee]

142. I don't know if lists are necessary

It's necessary for women to know how to handle themselves, but I think the lists feed the whole culture that shifts that responsibility to women. I think it's probably better handled from word to mouth, or maybe in an occasional list, not padded full of worthless impractical tips like never going out after dark or not drinking because it could cloud your thinking. I don't know if people are just trying to make the lists longer so they seem more serious or what, but it ends up making it seem like you'll get the blame when you don't follow those impractical rules (and you will), and also you get this feeling of "oh my god I can't even go to the bathroom" that I can't put into words better than that.

I would not mind a list that only had practical useful information (which would be a shorter list than you usually see) and was somehow never used against women after they'd been raped.

It makes me wonder if a list is even a good way to handle it. It's the kind of thing we learn from experience, both our own and the experience of others, from having our moms and others tell us what happened to them. The spidey sense of whom you hopefully can trust to be alone with and whom you probably should be careful around can't come off a list for sure. And that spidey sense is very often wrong and we just can't help that. Rapists know how to throw women's spidey sense off or they wouldn't be successful. But that instinct, as little as it helps us, is probably the best thing we have.

[arely staircase]

145. well, the lists do point out the "spidey sense"

as, "trust your insticts" is on most of them, though come to think of it "trust a sober female friend" might be better advice. i think the whole point of inability to give consent is that after 12 hurricanes, the ability to give consent may no longer be present. not to say tou can't get drunk and have sex, but at some point...

[XRubicon]

155. + 6.023x10^23

[pipi_k]

34. Yeah, I truly don't

understand the mindset that thinks this is a one-solution problem.

Oh, all we have to do is teach men/boys that rape is not OK, and things will be dandy.

yeah. right.

Do some women actually believe that's going to happen? Seriously? All whatever billion men who live on this planet?

again...

OK, I get it. We women should be able to go and dress however we want without being attacked. But we can't. And until the unlikely day comes when we can, I see nothing wrong with teaching our daughters that some things are simply not a real good idea.

some things we can't control. Like date rape done by someone we trust.

Some things we CAN control...by meeting a new date in a public place, in separate vehicles. Not giving our phone number or address. Having an unlisted phone #.

Doing whatever we CAN to lessen the chances we'll be someone's victim.

Anybody who has a problem with that...well, I just don't get it.

[sufrommich]

38. No one came close to saying it's a

"one-solution problem". No one.

[geek tragedy]

40. The problem is the assumption that the solution to reducing rape

is for women to modify their behavior. Sure, they should be smart. But, they don't need to be told to 'be smart' 100 times. They get it after a few.

When in reality it's teaching boys to be uber-respectful of a woman's body and her decisions regarding access to her body. "She didn't say no" and "she sent mixed signals" are alarmingly wide held beliefs as to what excuses rape.

It isn't helpful to peddle the myth that women need to fear strangers more than they do acquaintances when it comes to rape.

[geek tragedy]

52. Are you for fucking real? You claim the problem is people

who have experienced rape shutting down the discussion so more rational people can come up with a solution?

"Damaged?"

Good god, the ignorant, shitty things people say and believe.

[Sheldon Cooper]

60. Appalling.

[Nye Bevan]

58. I was attacked here for saying that I would warn my daughters about the existence of date-rape drugs

when they go to college. I would never "blame the victim" for any crime, but there are some DUers who react vehemently even to the idea of giving good advice or taking sensible precautions.

[sufrommich]

63. Do you have a link? Someone attacked you for

discussing date rape drugs with your daughter? That seems hard to believe.

[Nevernose]

71. I've seen that exact thing here probably dozens of times

And I've been on DU since the beginning, though I really don't feel like digging through thousands of posts (I'm not the person you were replying to, either -- merely a second person backing up the assertion).

[Nye Bevan]

75. "Young adults need to be taught that no means no, that drunkeness does not equal consent,

and to practice situational awareness" is a statement that one might think would be uncontroversial.

But to certain DUers this is a highly provocative thing to say.

[Nye Bevan]

74. Here's the thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022136264

Typical responses:

Tempest (13,860 posts) 79. And while you're teaching her to be fearful, make sure to let her know about PPD.

Paranoia Personality Disorder.

Paranoid personality disorder is a mental disorder characterized by paranoia and a pervasive, long-standing suspiciousness and generalized mistrust of others.




leftstreet (22,003 posts) 98. Now it's your 'daughters' and 'date-rape drugs?'

Your OP fixed the responsibility for rape avoidance on women. That does sound like blaming the victims. Whether or not you meant to sound that way, who knows.

Hopefully this thread will cause you to reconsider your words. The majority of rape victims already knew their attackers, so unless you're suggesting women avoid employment, education, dating, marriage, family members, churches, having friends...well you can see how it sounds

[seabeyond]

62. what you and others endlessly refuse to accept even though it has been told repeatedly that makes

these discussions so difficult, is the preventative things suggested would not address the vast majority of rape. when we are teaching our girls to speak out against dad/uncle/friend, do not get in a car with a date, go to a dates apartment, drink any alcohol at all ever, and many more facts that will not be discussed, we leave our girls vulnerable with the illusion that they can "prevent" their rape.

why is it that so many on du want to ignore a truth to repeatedly stand with their position?

as i have said, i will continue to teach my girls and boys human behavior that have negative consequence for them, others, society as a whole, giving them the tools to best handle what is thrown at them

it is dishonest to tell girls they can "prevent" their rape.

address that very SIMPLE sentence, and then get back to me on your issue.

[arely staircase]

81. i don't think any reasonable person believes one can be completely safe from crime. accusing me of

saying that, while a nice example of a strawman (person?) fallacy, simply isn't helpful or true. taking measures to reduce being victimized does not shift responsibility away from the criminal - it simply does not.

[seabeyond]

98. again. you did not address what i actually said. that is where the issue seems to lie. nt

[arely staircase]

101. well, thanks for clearing that up

eom

[Demo_Chris]

66. What do I think? I think some of our feminists enjoy trolling

We are, after all, talking about threads (and duplicate threads) with no other purpose than to incite anger. Certainly they aren't interested in a dialog. They don't want a discussion, they aren't looking for new ideas or even allies. Their point is to say something outrageous or just silly, in a self-righteous authoratative tone, and then attack anyone who challenges it with allegations of misogyny.

So why waste time trying?

There are plenty of fantastic feminists here that are well worth reading and learning from, and they might even jump in those threads, but if you want their best work you need to look elsewhere.

[datasuspect]

80. i don't even think many of them are actually feminists - mostly

"outrage trolls" who posit a caricature of a humanistic or an extreme left wing position and attempt to control the discourse and DU through intimidation, swarming, and TOS shenanigans.

if the ultimate objective wasn't to get people PPR'd, i'd moderate my view a little.

but there's way too many "cartoonish" and extreme positions floating around here to make me believe many of these people are actual feminists.

[Nye Bevan]

85. Shutting down Meta, with the never-ending stream of melodramatic denunciation threads,

will, I think, help in this regard.

[XRubicon]

154. I was thinking the same thing

Way too over the top to be believable.

[Puzzledtraveller]

172. Data hit the nail on the head

"outrage" troll, and no topic is safe from them. It was insinuated that I was okay with homosexuals being attacked because in one post I pointed out I was not cool with a dog being dyed. I didn't mention the threats because I hope that on Democratic Underground I do not have to state I am against people being threatened because of their sexual preferences. Geesh.

[XRubicon]

153. +10000 nt

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

76. Bad guys do bad things...

Last edited Tue Mar 12, 2013, 01:58 PM - Edit history (1)

Anybody who thinks we can "educate" rape out of existence is stupid beyond all human comprehension. That being said, we can make a significant dent in the problem be educating men on what constitutes rape (i.e., the young gentlemen in Steubenville who think that the victims' physical inability to say "no" was an invitation to a gang-bang). Education can have an effect there.

But as long as men are idiots, there's going to be rape. And teaching women common-sense ways of protecting themselves is always going to be part of the work of prevention. I've told my daughter (a college freshman) to never, EVER attend an off-campus party without at least two friends along with her and to never, EVER place herself in a position where she's alone with a guy - particularly if there's alcohol on the premise. I don't care how "nice" he might seem at the moment.

[Nye Bevan]

82. Sound advice.

Nobody can prevent all rapes. But sensible risk management is always smart.

[arely staircase]

89. good post

for all the outrage over the defense these perps may or may not mount, i bet such a defense won't work. if you are on videotape gang raping an unconscious person, you are going to the penitentiary.

[JoePhilly]

91. I'll be talking to my daughters about it, that's for sure.

[closeupready]

79. Done here.

[appleannie1]

83. There is a difference between rape and car theft and no one needs to tell a woman she

has to be on the defensive. The problem is that women should not have to constantly be on the defensive. They should be able to relax their guard once in a while. In today's world many males feel that if they paid for dinner they also paid for sex and won't take no for an answer.

[LanternWaste]

84. One issue seems to be prudence, while another issue seems to be rape.

One issue seems to be prudence, while another issue seems to be rape. The two issues may overlap to one degree or another, but they are indeed and in fact, two wholly and separate concepts and must be treated as such rather than two equal parts solution to one problem.

One may just as validly and relevantly ask of me: "what specific measures are you taking to prevent you from being the victim of a gunshot wound at the hands of a concealed weapons permit carrier?" My only answer would be, "how do I know who's carrying if their guns are concealed?" One issue is the prudent safety measures I take with me where ever I go, and another issue is that of guns, their carriers, and the laws surrounding them.

Conflating the two issues into one does not address either issue. And the visitor I receive in my hospital room due to the potential shooting who asks me, "why didn't you take all precautions? Why were you not more prudent? Gotta be careful out there!" is an idiot for merely asking me that.

[Bradical79]

86. That's not rape prevention you're talking and is just general personal safety advice.

Parking in well lit areas, not walking home alone at night, don't take drinks from strangers... this isn't advice limited to women, but should be given to everybody to help protect yourself from a pretty wide variety of crime. When I think of rape prevention discussion, I think of addressing issues more directly related to rape rather than general criminal opportunity.

[bettyellen]

87. no choices in this pole that have anything to do with the crux of the issue.....

did you just not read any of the threads on this before picking those two choices.

[mercuryblues]

88. because it leads to comments like this

Can you tell women to be careful? I realize it's always the guy's fault, if he won't stop etc...but I hear stories, and I just think "Why did you go up to the room," or "Why did you drink drinks from people, or leave it unattended." I realize it isn't the woman's fault, but I just want women to exercise care, and understand there are a lot of predators out there. Just do your best to not get separated from the herd, you know!

Women get the “be careful part”. The comment above blames the victim. If only she hadn't gone into that room, If only she took her drink with her when she went to the bathroom. It is the same as saying it was her fault, she should have known better.

Lock your doors and windows do not always deter a rapist. But if a woman forgets that a door is unlocked it is questioned on whether there was consent. If a person forgets to lock their car and the car is stolen, will the defense be well they left it unlocked and wanted me to steal it, taken seriously?

Alongside of teaching women, some men need to be taught what rape IS. Some men need to be taught if they know people like some in the survey linked to below, they should be outed as rapists. Their silence is not doing women any good.

Men hear the message women are getting. Telling women to say no by default leaves the impression that women walk around willing to have sex at any time; unless she specifically says no. Why not flip the message? A woman who is too drunk or has been drugged so she can't say no is taken as (or used in defense) implied consent, when it should in reality be considered implied refusal.


http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/

[arely staircase]

92. risk reduction on the part of a potential victim

in no way, shape or form relieves the perp of responsibility despite uninformed comments such as the one you point out. giving young people (or anyone) good risk prevention advice is the right thing to do, such comments not withstanding.

[mercuryblues]

102. I believe that

you believe that. Not everyone believes that. Can you see how telling women not to leave their drink unattended and somehow a drug gets slipped into it, leads to some people saying she should have known better? I mean she was taught after all, she was stupid.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/

That last point is an important one. People who excuse rapists usually see that equation from the other end: "He's my friend, so he can't be a rapist." We need to reverse that equation—"He's a rapist, so he can't be my friend." Perhaps then we could begin addressing why the dictionary definition of rape is overlooked—threatening, forcing, and incapacitating for sex—in our to avoid applying the word—"rapist"—to anyone we know.

[Exultant Democracy]

99. I've always been happy to know my little sister is a deadly weapon

Our father was a world champion martial artist and he taught us to defend ourselves, or more precisely how to kill if the need ever arise. Judo, freestyle, and Jujutsu were our base so any attacker within grappling distance can be dispatched with extreme prejudice.

Anyone individual foolish enough to attempt to rape my little sister while she was awake, even if they were armed, would end up very dead or pertinently disabled at best.

Suggesting that people learn self defense isn't an insult to victims, its a way to pertinently change the power dynamic.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trung_sisters

[arely staircase]

103. impressive

and of course there are those who would say you are now placing the burden on women to become martial arts champs in order to be blameless in their own rapes.

[Exultant Democracy]

109. There is a big difference between going to a victim

after the fact and saying they should have done xyz, of course that is reprehensible. No one who has been a victim wants to be "educated" on what they did wrong after that fact, that is totally understandable.

However for someone who has never been a victim suggesting a few preventative measures is not out of line, it is called empowerment.

[bettyellen]

114. I have a friend who's a black belt and extremely tough

Brutally raped, tied up and beaten. Her ex boyfriend had no training- but being twice her size, there was no contest.
And she didn't report it- ex BF, no broken bones... Very unlikely it would ever go to trial.

[Gravitycollapse]

113. The rape prevention movement is misguided.

It might be sincere. But it does help perpetuate female shaming. It also perpetuates a false narrative about rape.

That is, you almost certainly are going to be sexually assaulted in your home by someone you know. These "unsafe" spaces that are always talked about, parks at night, alleyways, parking garages, campuses, etc, they are essentially perfectly safe. So teaching women to fear these places gives into what many feminist theorist call "male controlled" spaces.

[lumberjack_jeff]

115. Disagree with "start"

As noted earlier this week, incidence of rape has declined dramatically in the last 20 years. (a drop of 80%+). This drop is due to some factor or combination of factors. It would appear that from the baseline set in 1993, the prevention efforts that we're doing now are remarkably successful.

Is the progress a result of educating boys? Is it the result of educating girls? I don't know, but if we don't currently educate boys then it is hugely irresponsible to stop educating girls, since that education is apparently solely responsible for the decline in rape. On the other hand, if educating boys is the key to stopping rape then we're apparently already doing a pretty good job of it, and to make additional progress maybe educating girls is useful.

Either way, no good comes from abandoning self defense advise for girls.

[Gravitycollapse]

117. Teaching women to fight back does not lower the incidence of attempted rape

So I don't understand your argument. If the incidence of attempted rape has declined, it's for some other reason. Likely a societal shift in attitude.

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. Okay, then let's explore the question of what causes rape.

Rape has declined.
If the cause of rape is ignorant and maladapted boys then boys are 20% as maladapted and ignorant as they were in 1993 - education efforts directed toward them have thus been remarkably successful.
If the cause of rape is young women operating with disregard for their safety, then they are apparently 80% better prepared in that regard.
If the cause of rape is "social attitudes", then the debate about educating boys or self protection advice for girls is pointless, since neither is useful. We should then examine what it is about wealth concentration, porn proliferation, video games, police surveillance, Iphones or other manifestations of modern society that deserve the credit.

[Gravitycollapse]

122. You can alter social attitudes through education.

Again, your argument makes no sense.

[lumberjack_jeff]

124. No, it makes perfect sense and is as simplified as I can make it.

These three statements can't all be true:
a) rape has declined (demonstrably true)
b) we don't educate boys about rape
c) educating girls about self-protection is ineffective.

Since A is true;
if B is true then C must be false.
If C is true then B must be false.

Personally, I think both b and c are false.

[Gravitycollapse]

127. You seriously think you can reduce this entire issue to that argument?

Let's be real here.

You're trying to use inductive reasoning and if I was a logic professor and you gave me that as your answer to the issue of rape, I would fail you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. Weak. n/t

[JVS]

147. That raises more questions about your qualification to be a logic professor than his application...

of logic. Go ahead and show where his logic is mistaken.

[Gravitycollapse]

149. That's easy: There is another reason for the decline in sexual assault.

That makes it possible for boys to not be educated as well as education for women to be ineffective.

My logic professor used to say that we should picture our arguments within "all possible worlds."

And if there is a possible world where the argument is fallacious, we must examine that possible world to make sure it's not the actual world.

His reasoning is weak because it illogically reduces possible explanations. All three of those statements could be true.

[JVS]

151. But those parameters were not chosen by him. They were set by the thread.

If you think all three are true, then you should be questioning the validity of the entire discussion of the thread (and a number of other threads because this is a recurring topic). If you think there are other factors to take into account, then you should point out what these threads need to take into account. Jeff wasn't the one who reduced it to those factors. That has already been done by the discourse here at DU. Jeff merely applied logic to a discussion already well underway.

Also, he did cover the case of "what if it's neither"

[lumberjack_jeff]

157. So your logical proposal is that neither education of boys nor of girls reduces rape.

Which makes the entire discussion a waste of time. Both approaches are simply an opportunity to waste someone's time as a form of retribution.

Which of the possible worlds that serve as an alternate to the "education reduces rape" school of thought is the one to which you agree?

[Gravitycollapse]

160. That's not my logical proposal at all.

We are talking about ineffective education of women (making them fear open, safe spaces) and essentially no education at all for men. Neither of those reduce the incidence of attempted rape.

There can still be effective education and I even mentioned that earlier. But my point to you is that your statement that those three things cannot be true at the same time is ridiculous. If all you can think of is direct education of men and women, you're not thinking long enough. Simply telling men not to rape women or teaching women how to fight back defies the root of the problem.

The heavy prevalence of sexual assault is a symptom of our rape culture. Which is then a symptom of the dehumanization and sexual objectification of women. Which is then a symptom of the Patriarchy and all of it's complex intermingling with the rest of the social order.

Reducing sexual assault requires that we make an effort to liberate women from all forms of social, cultural, religious, political, economic and sexual oppression.

[lumberjack_jeff]

162. One more time around the mulberry bush.

The heavy prevalence of sexual assault is a symptom of our rape culture. Which is then a symptom of the dehumanization and sexual objectification of women.

If education of boys is nonexistent, and education of girls is a waste of time, then why was rape 5 times more common 18 years ago?

Identify those factors and let's do that instead droning on and on about how important education is.

As a premise to devise solutions "the Patriarchy and all of it's complex intermingling with the rest of the social order." provides about as much traction as "God works in mysterious ways".

[Gravitycollapse]

163. Stop twisting my words. I did not say educating women was a waste of time.

I said what we're doing now, making them fear safe and open spaces, is misguided and ineffective.

We have to teach men to respect women as human equals. And that is likely why the prevalence of sexual assault has decreased so dramatically. The feminist movement has been a positive influence on the image and empowerment of women and the mentality of men.

Raising awareness for things like pay inequality, domestic abuse, sexual objectification, etc. Addressing these problems over time elevates women to a higher social status. The end goal of course is to erase the barrier that keeps men and women unequal.

Now, do you understand why your oversimplification is ridiculous?

[lumberjack_jeff]

164. So "misguided and ineffective" actions are not necessarily a waste of time?

With all due respect, I don't think you should be in a position of failing me in ANY class; logic, english or otherwise.

It is not possible to teach men to respect women as human equals without simultaneously teaching them that rape is wrong. Call it whatever you want, but you're telling me that educating men is what we have been doing for 18 years and deserves credit for the dramatic decrease.

[Gravitycollapse]

165. What? Go back and read what I wrote for Christ's sake.

I said our current method is misguided and ineffective. Not that educating women is ineffective.

Do you not understand the difference between those two things? I feel like I'm talking to a wall.

[arely staircase]

123. it is probably the result of educating both

i think there was a spike in reported rapes in the early nineties due to increased public awareness about it - iow, unreported cases dropped around that time, meaning reported ones went up.

now, actual cases may be declining due to continued education.

as far as educating boys/young men goes, that must be done. i think letting them know what is expected of them and what can potentially happen to them if they make poor choices is important. so is continuing to educate young women/girls how to avoid boys/men who don't conform to what is expected of them and care/think not a bit about consequences. and see that is the problem. all the education of males in the world will not eliminate the outlier. so empowering girls/young women with advice on situational awareness and risk prevention must always play a part.

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. Don't disagree.

We must continue to educate boys as well as continue to promote self-protection among girls.

[RoccoR5955]

131. What about the men who protect women from rape/attack?

I think the question that should be asked, is why the education system is not involved in educating EVERYONE on the fact that any kind of violence towards anyone is wrong. Surely the "churches" can do it as well. Perhaps the media should be involved, and get rid of all the violence that they show.
We live in a society where violence is too often looked upon as a way out. We need to change this. It's not just about rape, but it's about all forms of violence.

[LanternWaste]

134. Everyone drive safe tonight!

Everyone drive safe tonight!




Patting myself on the back for making this common-sense proactive stand to reduce traffic fatalities. I'll check out the number variance in the morning.

[gollygee]

138. I think the list would include a bunch of impractical "tips"

Don't drive in bad weather.

Don't drive after dark.

Check your tire pressure and tire tread before you get into your car every time!

Always walk around the perimeter of your vehicle before entering it.

Keep both hands on the wheel at all times.

Don't be distracted by other people in the car or by other things going on around you. Keep your mind on your job behind the wheel.

And then if you got into an accident, you'd be grilled about why you drove when it was raining, and whether you checked your tire pressure that time, and if you were distracted at all.

[gollygee]

167. Actually, I need to rephrase this

"And then if you got into an accident, you'd be grilled about why you drove when it was raining, and whether you checked your tire pressure that time, and if you were distracted at all."

No, that's not right. It isn't when you get into an accident. It's when someone else intentionally crashes into your car. Someone else intentionally crashes into your car when you're trying to avoid it, and THEN you're asked why you drove when it was raining, and whether you checked your tire pressure that time, and if you were distracted at all, and no one talks about the driver of the car that intentionally crashed into you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

156. Between "everyone drive safe tonight!" and "remember to wear your seat belt"...

which is more likely to decrease injuries.

Telling me to wear a seat belt is just more blame the victim bullshit!

[Rex]

139. Intent.

To me, it is all in the intentions of the person. You have good intentions when you tell your relatives to 'be safe' no matter what gender they are.

"To be safe" is good...when my parents or friends have to go to the 'big city' it is just a mater of routine for me to say, 'be careful'. I cannot help that side of me - I worry and cannot help but say it with good intentions. I DON'T mean, "you drive horrible, be careful not to hit someone', no I mean it as in a general mindset. To be careful while in the Big City with all those rush hour drivers.

Be careful - it is a general term I use with good intentions. Be safe. Think of safety. I usually ride with a friend to pick up his daughter at a local community college, because it is dark and there have been rapes and even a murder on campus at night. I am there to make sure they both are Safe. I am there to make sure we leave together all in one piece.

It is a nurturing part of me that I was born with and will always have inside me. It makes ME feel better after I say it. To whoever it is I love and want to see again, unharmed both physically and mentally. It is always with good intentions, even if it never needs to be said.

[Zorra]

144. Encouraging potential victims to take crime prevention measures is:

The sad, unfortunate consequence of several millenia of widespread, unrestrained patriarchy.

[Nye Bevan]

148. Anyone got a problem with this?

Is this a good idea? Or is it offensive and should be shut down?

[Posteritatis]

150. Wow, I didn't think there was that much straw in the whole country. (nt)

[justiceischeap]

158. I find this anti-rape ad troubling, do you? Or do you think it's 'helpful'?

I think the point of the rape prevention discussions isn't that telling women to be prepared or aware is a bad thing, it's the manner in which it's done. Golly Gee has made some really solid, valid points in this regard, so I'm not going to rehash them but, ultimately, no matter how prepared we are, how conscientious, if/when a woman is raped, she has so much to look forward to. Not only is there guilt she places on herself because she obviously did something wrong (I mean, we have all those lists, right? She must be a real irresponsible idiot to get into a predicament to get herself raped), there's the endless questioning of HER motives, HER actions, HER attire, HER location. Hell, Republicans are trying to legislate what is "legitimate" or "honest" rape--if that isn't victim blaming AND putting the onus on the woman, I don't know what is. On top of it all, a man is more likely to get harder time for marijuana possession than a sex crime--if he gets convicted at all.

I have a family member who was convicted of molesting his 2 young step-daughters and he got an ankle bracelet for his crimes (and they weren't his first victims). This same relative has a felony conviction for armed-robbery and spent 5 years in the federal pen. We could argue which is worse, armed-robbery (he was at the crime, the get away driver) or raping young girls. Who will have the worst lasting effects? The young girls that were raped or the armed robbery victim? He got the ankle monitor because his crimes weren't of a violent nature. If taking a child against her will isn't violent, I don't know what is.

And as so many have stated in these many, many, many discussions...no one questions someone who is a victim of robbery, attempted murder, etc. Their characters aren't questioned but when it comes to rape, well, lets just say that the second, third and fourth rapes may be just as bad or worse than the original because if you don't think women get raped repeatedly by the system after the initial rape, you're just not paying attention.

[arely staircase]

159. i would say it evokes many past (as in over the generations)

many ads that tend to try titillate in the name of a higher ethics. like the earlier ones, it tends to lose credibility in the name of sensationalism.

[justiceischeap]

161. Did you happen to notice that the ad not only blames the victim

but the victims friend as well? Not once in that ad is the blame where is should be, with the rapist.

[Summer Hathaway]

168. I congratulate you

on attempting to open an intelligent discussion on this topic - and I believe that intelligent discussion is warranted.

Your mistake was not in introducing the subject, but in thinking (hoping?) that intelligent discussion was possible on this website.

It's not.

There was a time when it was - but that time is long gone, along with those who could have discussed the topic openly, honestly, and intelligently.

But I give you credit for trying, nonetheless.

[lunatica]

171. Your equivelancy of locking your car doors doesn't cut it

I'd say almost all women lock their car doors. So what's your point? That women don't do common sense things unless someone like you tells them to?

You'd be quite surprised to know how much women actually do to keep from being victimized.

I get what you're saying and I think you're right, but women aren't silly little victims in waiting. Many of us, being the recipients of violence by men close to us, such as husbands, know all too well that no amount of preventive actions will help when the perpetrators want to commit violence against us.

If someone were dead set on committing violence on you, even rape, chances are that you would be a victim at some point. It wouldn't matter what you did to prevent it. Think about that.