They've Burned The Constitution... Why Not The Flag ???

[WillyT]

Discuss.

[DontTreadOnMe]

1. Anyone who is obessed with a flag has their priorities mixed up

Flag waving attracts shallow minds. Same thing as arm bands and loyalty oaths.

I would vote for a National Flag Burning Day.... just to piss people off. Marshmallows and Hot Dogs roasted over flags...

[Kennah]

6. One could say they are symbol minded

Credit goes to the late George Carlin for that one.

[sabrina 1]

2. Indefinite detention without charges, yes they have burned the Constitution. Where is the outrage?

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

7. Where was the outrage when Bush said it was just a piece of paper?

Could never figure that out.

[sabrina 1]

8. Were you here then? On the Left, there was huge outrage, endless outrage, over his destruction

of the Constitution. I can't believe you said that.

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

35. Sorry I meant the outrage from the middle or right.

[jberryhill]

3. Part of communicating is knowing your audience

The problem with some types of demonstrative behavior is that while you may perfectly well understand what is your motivation and message, others who have not considered what is motivating you, or simply don't know, may take your message to be something other than what you intend or believe.

What the flag is a symbol of in the first place, is a different thing to different people.

For example, over the last few years, thousands of wives, husbands, parents and children have seen the last view of their wife, husband, brother, sister, father or mother in a metal box with a US flag on it.

For those people, the flag is something more personal to them than the logo of a government having sovereignty over a chunk of North America. So while you are expressing a view of a breach of the social contract embodied in a political document drafted by 18th Century slave owners, that is something of an academic statement which is going to be utterly misconstrued by those who would most benefit by understanding what you actually think and believe.

And that is unfortunate.

[msongs]

4. wonder how many iraqis we killed had a flag on coffin burial nt

[jberryhill]

5. Probably very few if any

Perhaps we should apologize to them in Chinese or perform some other incomprehensible act.

Communicating in a manner which is not understood, is not communicating. The first amendment certainly permits you to babble incomprehensibly to yourself. But if one has a message, then one usually tries to express that message in a way that others can understand.

[sabrina 1]

9. Then OWS has been extraordinarily successful at delivering their message. Millions worldwide

now use their language, including politicians here. The conversation has been changed in a matter of months. No more talk of the 'deficit and sharing the sacrifice' we heard for so long. I am glad the President is hearing the message of OWS and has dropped that language as he most likely knows now, the people were not buying it. That will benefit HIM in the election.

In fact, as far as marketing goes, they have been outstanding, something even those who are not too thrilled with them have reluctantly acknowledged. And it is only going to get better.

Btw, what did you think of what the OPD did to the women protesters on Saturday, speaking of what the flag symbolizes? Curious not to see any commentary on those egregious violations from any of those who profess to be so 'concerned' about messaging.

[WillyT]

10. + 1,000,000,000... What You Said !!!

[jberryhill]

11. That's the second time you asked me

I think the police who did those things should be locked up.

I think it is a stupid thing to announce one is taking over a building.

And I don't care what one chooses to burn.

Mass movements have accomplished lots of things for a lot longer than OWS has been around. The end of Marcos' rule was the consequence of a mass movement. So was the end of the Berlin Wall and the fall of the Soviet Union.

So also was the French Revolution.

OWS did not invent the mass movement.

[2pooped2pop]

30. they don't have to announce they are taking over a building

the police are in the camps and one would have to be stupid to think they are not. So since the police already are very aware of what they are doing, the announcement is more for the people.

I remember when they were planning to shut down a port. I said. "that's stupid," "it's too soon", "they aren't strong enough yet.", "they will fail and then look weak"

But they did call the strike, they did shut down the ports and instead of showing thier weakness, they showed how strong they are. I was wrong.

There has been more than one occasion that I questioned the tactics of some OWS camps. But every single time, they have relieved my fears with their positive words to me.

So when they say "we are going to occupy this building" I think "man thats not a good idea. You will leave the police no choice but to stop you"

But, you see, it's just that which makes this movement work. We older people who have been protesting for years know the police will stop us. We know the shit is coming. So we don't do it. ANd our protest go without media attention and no one knows we are there. So it is just the innocence of some of the protestors, in not seeing how it must surely go, that keeps them standing there defiant. Tenacious. And it has worked.

They wanted that building for the good of the community. I'm sure they saw it as an eyesore that is a blight on the city. THe city doesn't want it. It needs help. The city owns the building. To Occupy, the city owns nothing. It's the peoples building and it should not be standing there rotting when people need it.

So that is part of the why. As to the flag burning...I still suggest provactuers but even if it is true occupiers, I still don't have a problem with it. I would rather not see it burned. But since our govt and Wall Street has been wiping their asses on the flag for so long, and especially once Sarah Palin wrapped herself in one, maybe it does need a good cleaning by fire.

I'm just saying people who are so worried about this minor incident really just need to let it go. It will most likely happen again. Every type of person is part of the 99%. We want no violence but cannot control every move. Every person is responsible for the damage they cause.

And especially in Oakland where the people have been brutalized by the police, repeatedly, I can't judge them wrong for destroying a simple flag made in China being burned. (or for the petty theft of the flag)

Everyone lets the intentions of Occupy go and focuses on this? Not on their feeding the homeless, providing coats for poor, bringing the whole thing to the attention of the world? No, they burned the made in China, flag.

[think]

14. The words you just wrote are the outrage that needs to be expressed and understood

by ordinary Americans who are very uninformed. Finding the best ways to communicate this to them in a way that creates understanding and respect for ones cause is best illustrated by making the treatment by the OPD more evident.

Getting videos like this to go more viral will garner OWS much more support than any burnt flag ever will:

Creative signs will always be better understood as well:

“If only they enforced bank regulations like they do park rules, we wouldn’t be in this mess"

Quickly and concisely a message is conveyed that the uninformed person can understand because of the simplicity of the example given.

The burning of the flag is symbolic and understood by the persons involved but because the average American does not understand these issues nor the brutality of the police in this instance, the burning flag does not resonate the issues behind it to these people.

All they see is the defiance rather than the reason for the defiance. If the goal of OWS is to expose the corruption and gain public support for change then the message gets lost in the translation.

Sorry if this is talking circular.

Peace.

[sabrina 1]

17. Why do you think that all they see are the relatively few incidents such as the one all over DU

today? Why eg, are some DUers helping the corporate media to 'see' something that was a minor incident compared to the many outrages that took place that day?

You are aware I'm sure, that after first ignoring this movement (which was a blessing) the MSM finally got instructions to 'cover' it. We have seen the memos offering to 'smear' the movement from rightwing think tanks, for a considerable sum of money.

The Corporate media seeks out incidents like this no matter how good the message is. So we really cannot be concerned too much about them. OWS occupiers in different locations now have their own media, print and livestream. The only reason the Corporate Media has not succeeded in blurring the message, is because there are now so many other places to get actual real and accurate coverage of the movement. RT, Current, on TV, and several Indy channels have done a magnificent job of delivering news about this movement covering its excellent message delivery.

But here on DU we should not be seeing this flood of what can only be described as mimicing the Corporate Media, focusing on one minor incident that occurred on a day when the Occupiers were out all day long, doing exactly as you advise. We have no control over the money spent to try to find ONE thing for the Corporate Media to cover, there will always be one, or they will create them.

I fail to see though, why on a democratic board so many appear to be working as hard as possible to make sure that one, minor incident gets as much coverage as possible. Can you explain it?

[think]

21. The Democratic party is not OWS and the presence of the established wing

of the Democratic party here is duly noted. Rocking the boat is not their goal as they are sitting comfortably in it. For better or worse they believe the system is not broken or if it is it can be fixed within the confines of the political system.

[2pooped2pop]

32. +1000 n/t

[2pooped2pop]

31. It is odd though

that we have to be the media to get this kind of video out there but that flag burning was very clearly recorded and spread?

Not odd, just our treasonous, lying, mainstream media.

[MADem]

15. They have a different set of customs, by and large--they will use flags at times

Funerals in Iraq are usually a very simple and somber event. People are buried on the day after their death, and are wrapped in a white cloth and placed in a white box, if available. A black funeral flag is hung along a street or intersection to honor the dead. Wakes are often held in Suuni or Shi’ite mosques. Wealthy families put on more elaborate wakes, building giant tents in their gardens, where for three days visitors pay their condolences and eat hearty meals. A group of “adadas”, or professional mourners, are sometimes hired to dress in black, sing threnodies (mourning songs) and cry for the dead for hours on end. A society that has experienced as much violence as Iraq learns to adapt its mourning traditions to its circumstances. The mounting death toll in the country has led to a boom in the funerary industry: coffin makers, grave diggers, and caterers, for example. Often proper wakes and funerals can’t be held due to dangers of violence.
http://mysendoff.com/2011/07/iraq-mourning-practices/

Funeral of an Iraqi policeman this past November--with flag:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xm0n7n_funeral-for-iraq-bomb-blast-policeman_news

[MADem]

13. +1. That's it. nt

[Luminous Animal]

16. Yes. Let's focus on the message (for the 1%) of a few dozen rather

than the message of the PEACEFUL message of the several thousand that marched that day.


The 1%. That's it.

[MADem]

19. You have incredible difficulty with context, plainly.

Must be interesting to live in a black-and-white world.

Don't ask me to be one of your mindless cheerleaders. I live in a nuanced world.

Go ahead and make some more churlish and context-free "The 1%" comments. When you can't argue on the merits, I do understand that it's easier to fling slogans.

[Luminous Animal]

22. Here is where I write a post addressing the horrible actions

of the .001% of the protesters and in the process smear the 99.99% of the protesters who were engaged in peaceful action. I will ignore the 1000s of peaceful protesters in order to make it clear (with nuance, of course) that I firmly and absolutely decry the actions of the .001% Because, the nuanced response is to, of course, focus on the dozens at the expense of the thousands. The nuanced response is to define the whole by the handful.

And here I will assert my superiority over that 99.99% of PEACEFUL protesters for not being on hand to control that .001%. And I will ignore the fact that cops were standing there idly and letting that .001% define the 99.99%. And, I will turn my panties in a knot, to not only condemn that .001%, but to catapult the "nuanced" propaganda of the 1% to ensure that the 99.99% doesn't frighten the masses.

And here is where I will ignore the FACT that 10s of thousands have PEACEFULLY protested, nearly 5000 have been arrested for doing so and 100s have been injured. And I will ignore THAT message... that "they" may and quite likely will be subject to arrest for exercising "their" right to assemble... I will write no hang-wringing posts to decry the mass arrests and brutalization of my fellow citizens.

But, damnit! I will, I WILL, write and protest the burning of a piece of cloth.

With nuance, of course.

[MADem]

23. You don't want to discuss, you want to pontificate.

You're on your own.

[Luminous Animal]

24. Thanks for backing down.

[MADem]

25. You have one of those nice days ... talking to yourself. nt

[inna]

27. .

(too funny!! brilliant!)

[Kablooie]

12. Well now that there flag is a too important a thing to burn.

It means America.

Not like that old constitution paper thing that's just scrawled together by a bunch o' them activist judges.

The flag is perfect but that constitution needs a good kick in the pages.










(of course)
Just playing devil's idiot advocate.

[ashling]

18. The Constitution (1st Amend) protects burning the constitution

so there

[Rex]

20. Who did?

[JI7]

26. who is "they" ?

[Joe Shlabotnik]

28. I often K&R posts about OWS, but this time I can't.

I have very strong feelings in support of Occupy, and hope it has and will continue to bring about much needed change. But frankly, lets put this issue to bed. I'm sick of it. We all know what we each of us saw, and some even think they know what they may not have seen. And debating multiple points with conflicting contexts is not getting anyone any further. Usually I'm all for debate, but at this rate, we'll still be debating what the greatest indignity was, long after the media has skipped on to it's newest sensational story.

So I propose, those who support OWS, in sincerity with clear intentions and clean conscience go forward and continue to be the change.

I propose that no-one burns any flags since that gets us no-where. Unless of course you have your heart set on burning a flag, (which we've established, ad nauseam is your constitutional right), then please show some courtesy, and respect the passionate feelings of those to whom you may offend. Therefore, with the general consensus being that flag burning will not further OWS reputation, or make people happy, please hold your own very special flag burning rally.

I propose that all the Dems here, work real hard to re-elect Obama, a Dem congress, and progressive values.
and I propose to any haters of OWS, do what you gotta do in the meantime. (OWS is playing the long game)

There are we all good? NOW SHUT THE FUCK UP!

[pmorlan1]

29. Protests

We fly a flag in front of our house. Our protest is to fly only the Betsy Ross flag not the current flag. For us the current flag represents torture, spying on Americans, etc. We love our country we just don't love how it's been undermined by our leaders so we will only use the Betsy Ross flag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_Ross_flag

[jberryhill]

34. Yes, the flag of slave owners is soooo much more preferable

When I see people with historical flags like that, I always figure they liked the US better prior to the 13th and 14th Amendments.

[unionworks]

33. Hard to believe OWS

....is only about 4 months old! I. Have never hear of a movement pickinng up steam so fast. That is because it's time is now

[T S Justly]

36. K&R (nt)