Who says raising boys is easier?

[seabeyond]

If this is what boys being easier to raise than girls looks like, could you imagine how many men would be in jail if raising girls got any harder? We worry so much about girls getting hurt -- and justifiably so -- but interestingly enough, the stats show it's our boys who are more likely to get robbed, attacked or even murdered. We see girls as fragile orchids and boys as plastic plants. But let's face it: At the core of this line of thinking isn't safety -- it's sex.

*

True, parents of boys do not have to worry about them coming home pregnant, but does that mean an unplanned pregnancy can be considered "the girl's problem"? After all, a boy's girlfriend did not get pregnant asexually. That's why I'm Tebowing day and night, hoping my 15-year-old has the will to stay away from sex -- even though the world all around him tells him there's something wrong with him if he does.
Easier? Ha. Try different.

A little girl who likes to play sports is called a tomboy. A little boy who doesn't like to play sports is called weird. A teen girl who says "no" is called a good girl. A teen boy who says "no" is called a sissy. A lot of words describe what it's like for parents who are trying to teach their teenage son how to be his own man in a high school setting that demands conformity, but "easy" is not one of them.
I know, I know, "boys will be boys" is the accepted rule of thumb. But given that we have a federal department that hunts down and sometimes arrests deadbeat fathers, doesn't that raise the question: What kind of boys are we raising? And if they're dropping out of high school at a faster clip than girls, why do we think raising them is easier?

*

I guess if parents don't care if their son thinks being a man begins and ends with his penis, then yes, I can see how some would think raising a boy is easier. But if you're actually trying to raise a gentleman, and you hear LMFAO rap "I'm running through these hos like Drano" -- as they do in "Party Rock Anthem," the second most popular song of 2011 -- then you're not breathing a sigh of relief because it's so much easier to raise a boy. Instead you're wondering how much of what you're trying to teach him soaks in, versus what our culture says is OK. We've made so many advances as a society in terms of gender equity, and yet we still hold on to this nonsensical double standard that celebrates sexually active boys while demonizing their female counterparts, as if we can have a lot of one without the other. This kind of thinking is handed down from generation to generation almost as soon as the umbilical cord is cut.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/31/opinion/granderson-boys-girls/index.html?hpt=hp_bn9

[renie408]

1. I have one of each and we live in a VERY conservative area...

The local high school has a Prayer Wall where kids can tape names of things that need praying for. When my son was there he taped a note card with 'The Bill of Rights' written on it to the wall. We are pretty liberal when it comes to sex. I have never told my kids that they should avoid sex or that they should wait until they are married to have sex. My son (20 and in college now) has been sexually active since he was 17. He has had three partners, all of them girls he was in a relatively long term relationship with. My daughter is 16 and is not yet sexually active. I have told her that her protection is her responsibility. She is an attractive, socially active, NORMAL teenage girl. She has boys that are friends and has had a couple of 'serious' boyfriends (she is between boys right now, but hunting and I am sure will have one captured any day now). What we have talked about is that sex is not something to be taken lightly and not something you can 'get back' once it is done. But that healthy animals like sex and she is going to like it, too, some day and that when that day happens, we aren't going to think any differently about her. In other words, it isn't like we would freak out if she came home from a date and told us she'd had sex.

Out of her wide circle of Christian conservative friends, she is one of the only girls who ISN'T sexually active. Two girls that are her friends are pregnant and at least one, whose parents hold up the local church on Sundays, has had an abortion. Many others have had pregnancy scares. We know because my daughter is the designated pregnancy test buyer for her group of friends. Mostly because her brother worked at the local CVS over the summer and his best friend still does, so she can go in there and buy the tests without causing too much of a stir. My point is that ALL of the girls that are pregnant, have been pregnant or are worried about being pregnant have come from staunch conservative families that vilify sexuality. One of them stood up during Biology last year and stalked out to loud applause after dramatically declaring that she would not sit there and have the 'lies' of evolution forced upon her (we live in SC...what do you do??).

It never fails to amaze me that we are pretty much pariahs in the school community and always have been because we are liberal, atheist Democrats, yet my son was a Palmetto Scholar, captain of the band, 5th in his class, didn't really drink til he got to college and my daughter is home schooled, has a job, doesn't drink, isn't sexually active and I have parents tell me all the time how happy they are that their girls are friends with my girl because she is so 'good'. I have LITERALLY had people ask me how 'we' (those damned librul heathens) could produce two such 'good' kids. When I tell them, "The only rules in my house are 'don't lie to me' and 'never be cruel'" you should see the looks on their faces.

Anywho, not sure why I wrote this long thing other than this subject is hot on my mind as my daughter bought ANOTHER pregnancy test for a friend on Monday.

[Lionessa]

3. Yep, we were the liberal atheists in the community

and though all doors and communication were open to my daughter, she chose not to engage in sex till she was 18, where she was the last girl she knew/we knew to step into that arena. I was actually getting a little worried, I have to say. I really didn't want my daughter to suffer and type of frigidity. I know, it's counter-intuitive to want your daughter to be sexually active and therein happily, but I wanted it not only for my son, but also my daughter.

Edit to add:

Additionally at 26yo, she has yet to marry nor divorce, nor have pregnancy/children planned or otherwise. Her friends are all through at least one of each and have children accidentally before 1st marriage, mostly now single moms.

[SharonAnn]

48. As a freshman in college I said I would probably

have sex before marriage if it was with the right guy. I didn't want to marry for a long, long time yet.

I was vilified by my dorm friends for stating that.

Later I found out that I was the only virgin in the room and that none of them were. Yet they were vilifying me because I was honest.

Taught me a couple of lessons. One was that those who deny, object and vilify might just be guilty. The second was, keep your mouth shut about things like this because it's none of their business and it can come back to haunt you.

[cpamomfromtexas]

4. Wonderful story, congratulations on raising good kids.

[seabeyond]

8. i am you. my boys are 14 and working on 17

we live in the panhandle of texas. all their life they have spoken from the other side of the isle with very little support. we also talk openly about all things in our house. and i have yet to have to address behaviors and choices.

my youngest when he was 12, 13 was telling me about his sex ed class, with older son. we were addressing the issues of fear to stop kids, and the reality and truths. at a point he says, i am going ot try to wait. it literally took time to enter my head. what? i couldnt believe i was hearing this from this boy. having already had many conversations with older son, i thought we put that to rest. but he being 3 yrs younger, i realized i had not started the real talking with him yet.

now son, i dont want you to get married until you are older. do you really think you are going to wait?

then backpedaling, not that i am saying go out now and....

but reality is, in the very fundie community we live, i identify with all you say.

[freefaller62]

32. Kids don't understand religion, but they understand parents

I was raised Roman Catholic - - I kept wondering why they preached good behavior, but gave confessions every week for those who did not do what they should. Can you imagine what society would be like if the government did the same thing? The professional religions make little sense. Kids don't understand it. But they know when a parent makes sense.

The key here is the philosophy. Organized religion preaches from a seat of power. They cite the commandments and the biblical texts and tell you that the wrath of God will fall on you if you don't obey your parents. It is not a respectable argument; it's one of fear. You were preaching (sorry for the terminology) from a seat of parental authority that used LOGIC. You were sensible and your good kids received your words well. I must add that you were lucky you did not have a problem child who will not listen to anything. You had a good roll of the genetic dice.

I explained the differences in the prominent religions to my kids when they mentioned it; the history of the Lutheran Church and the Letters of Indulgence was my favorite. The son took it all in and has his master's degree now. The girl just wanted to party.

Sometimes, no matter what, the child won't listen. My vote: Girls are much harder to raise.

[TheMadMonk]

2. Boys give you grey hairs before puberty. Girls after. /nt

[seabeyond]

9. meh... it really has been pretty easy, before and ofter. one rolls her eyes

the other is snarky. they both find the way.....

[Darth_Kitten]

83. Uh, no....

I don't think so....teenage boys are a nightmare nowadays. Sorry, just heard too many stories.

[seabeyond]

84. unless you are a parent to the boys. then it is not so tough. i guess the same

would be said about girls. parenting actually is effective

[Alcibiades]

5. It's all based on averages

I have two, a boy and a girl, aged 7 and 3. Though the concerns here address parents of teens, the other parents I know are always commenting on how boys and girls are different even at young ages.

Boys are supposed to be hyper and rambunctious, girls are supposed to develop more quickly and be more compliant. This is, however, based on the average: there is a lot of variation, and, given the small sample size most parents have, your own experience may be very different. Most of the mothers I know who have had girls first think their boys are "bad," because they are more active. This is puzzling to me, because the boys in question are not disobedient, they just require a little more supervision.

At the same time, though, my own boy and girl are completely different. I might add that I was raised by a feminist, my wife is a working professional, and I am a stay at home dad who has tried to treat my kids equally--though it's impossible to treat them the same, of course, because they are different people. Variations between individuals based on who they are are at least as great as those based on gender.

Girls are supposed to hit most developmental milestones a little faster, but that hasn't been my experience. My son was talking early, walking and running at 12-18 months, and has generally been above the 95% on everything--size, reading, math, etc. I give him books that are at a 9th grade level, and he can read them, has maxed out the elementary school reading exam, etc. Meanwhile my girl did everything later. She's 3, and still does not speak clearly, so much so that we took her to a speech pathologist, who said (which we knew) that she's bright cognitively, but that she's at the 20% for speech. She'll be going for speech therapy once a week from now on. At the same time, she does pretty much have the same energy level as my son, but gets tired a little more easily.

Some things I have been successful at, with regard to eliminating silly gender distinctions. Both my kids will play with toys that are usually "for" the opposite gender. Some things I have noticed I think are down to gender differences: while my mom friends have noted their boys' greater energy, few seem to have noted how moody girls are, perhaps because they are women themselves. If I want to get my boy to do something he does not want to do, I give him one simple explanation, and that almost always suffices. This has been a good technique, allowing me to explain that there is a reason for things, but without having to have to argue through everything. With my girl, this has not been nearly so successful. She's quite stubborn, which she gets from her mother. The same parenting techniques that quickly ended the boy's tantrum phase have not nearly been so successful. She cares about things the boy never cared about, such as what clothes she is going to wear.

Though I would welcome a role reversal at some point, and it's still early going, all in all my boy has been much, much easier. I do love having a "set" of one of each, though, because each one is a delight in their own way, and my greatest source of joy. And I do think this article perpetuates something you see quite commonly in the media, which is that children are seen only as a problem, a vexing source of anxiety. On balance, when I take the problematic bits of parenting and weigh them with the joys and successes we have had together as a family, the balance sheet is very skewed in favor of my judgment that having children has been the best thing we have ever done.

[seabeyond]

10. i have exactly what you have in ALL things, but they are both boys.

isnt that interesting. saying, maybe it is not a girl difference but order of birth.

my oldest is still maxing out on the reading/writing stuff, and math is much more a challenge. he is not sequential so unless he is shown many ways, it is a challenge. in highschool, pre calculus, they are not nearly as patient with this type child. BUT... he is the top 5% of the top 10% in the nation on reading comprehension. he was always ahead of the curve and very articulate and communicative at a very young age which is suppose to be girls. almost 17 he is still easy and communicating is the best form of parenting. he has made my life easy.

then my younger son.... lol. much more stubborn, much harder to get to do what i WANT, lol, thru talking. everything is much more a struggle. my only grace is he wants to be like his older brother, so i get a break there cause brother is a good example.

and he had a tough time with talking. speech therapy. and he was slow with the curve. i had to hold him until 14 and half months. then got up and walked, no practice. he always learned things on the sly and i didnt know, then just did it. totally different. but he always caught up with the curve, so i stopped being concerned.

books were as much fun for them as toys.

i also had nieces around, and when allowed and encourage they were as active. one in particular would hang back, but you could see she wanted to do. she had to be allowed. the other two, as active as sons. that one really bothers me, because we are holding girls back. sit, quiet, be good.

i LOVE your post. thanks for sharing. and i LOVE your arrangement. i think that is great. i am glad you are all comfortable going against the norm.

[Alcibiades]

64. It just sort of happened that way

Ultimately it all goes back to marrying a girl who was two years ahead of me in college (though I was three years older). By the time I finished my PhD, she had hers for several years, and quite a good career, so you go with whoever has the health insurance.

Enjoyed reading about your boys. The speech therapist suggested something I already suspected, that some of my daughter's problems with frustration tolerance may be down to her inability to express herself clearly.

Boys, girls, birth order--I am convinced today that, even if you treat your children exactly the same, they insist on turning out differently. A lot of it is just the randomization of genetics. You don't know what you will wind up with, but you love them just the same, no matter what.

[renie408]

18. I love the last part of your post...

because I SO feel the same way. All the other mothers would be rejoicing when school went back into session, but not me. I loved having my kids around all the time. We home school my daughter due to the school situation where we live and the fact that home schooling fits into our lifestyle better and we both enjoy it. Ok, I really enjoy it and she has mixed feelings. But they are the same feelings that any kid has when they have a project due or a paper to write.

I haven't ever really paid all that much attention to trying to influence their gender identity. I tended to buy things I thought were cool for either of them without regard to whether it was a boy or girl toy. Once they were old enough to pick out their own stuff, I let them do that.

Neither are huge readers, though they will chew through a book that interests them. And mine were backwards from yours: son walked at 13 months, daughter at 8 months. Both talked a little early, but I spent all day with them and I am a big talker. Daughter has always been cooking with gas; son will stand back and evaluate a situation before jumping in. They are and always have been people of their own.

[surrealAmerican]

74. Some kids are just more argumentative than others.

If you reversed the genders or your descriptions, you might have been talking about my children (an older sister and younger brother).

People tend to attribute to "gender differences" behaviors that are mere individual variation, when they coincide with well known stereotypes. I've found, in raising my children (they are 17 and 20 now), that although gender differences do exist, they are far less obvious than individual variation or birth order differences.

[seabeyond]

75. that is what i have found. out of all the little girls that fit the gender role

5 little girls.... only 1 and it is obviously the mom and dad create this. little girls are princesses... they like pink, boys like blue.... they are beautiful, boys handsome.... ect

[dawg]

6. The gender roles that society forces on men are every bit as smothering as those it forces on women.

Those of us who refuse to fit the mold pay a price for it. It becomes less true once school is over and adult life begins, but it is still there.

[seabeyond]

11. you are right on and i couldnt agree with you more dawg.

since i have boys, this is the reason it is one of my top issues. but then, i love human development and behavior.

[KitSileya]

67. I think that gender roles in many aspects are even more rigid for boys

At least here in Norway, the pink and blue aisles at the toy store have become more prevalent in the last decade. We're backsliding on the gender differentiation, princesses for girls and action toys for men, and the like. However, it is quite ok for a girl to cross the aisle, as it were, and play with 'blue' toys and boy's games. it is even soemthing to be proud of, and brag about. But woe the boy who wants to cross to the 'pink' aisle. Then there must be something wrong with him, and he needs to toughen up etc.

My brother-in-law is like that with my nephew, unfortunately. I was also told a funny anecdote at work of someone's nephew who always wants to play with dolls and be a princess, which drove the father to distraction. This Christmas, as they were getting dressed up the Norwegian equivalent of 'trick or treating', which happens in the days between Christmas and New year's, he wanted to dress up in a pretty dress. The father refused to let him, pushing all sorts of superhero costumes on him. When the boy saw the Superman costume, he enthusiastically agreed to wear it, and the father sighed a sigh of relief. That lasted until they rang the first doorbell, and the neighbor asked the children who they were dressed up as, and the boy proudly twirled around with his cape and declared he was a princess!

[seabeyond]

68. really? norway, too. i love the story of the kid. lol.

my oldest did not fit all the labels of "man". everything about him was uniquely him. not fitting boy, nor girl, necessarily. he just couldnt be labeled.

hubby being a texan and all, i was concerned there might be pushing. without saying anything, i gotta say, my hubby was so accepting of the boys, just the way he was. i was surprised, pleasantly. all the other dads would talk all this boy talk and it wasnt son, but hubby would talk about his reading and talking and creating eco colonies.

i really hadnt expected this in other places. i dont know why. maybe because we are conditioned (though i am learning otherwise) that europe is so progressive and beyond this stuff.

last decade or so, i have seen a shift and change in the way we were going. i say we are taking steps backwards, too.

[HopeHoops]

7. When you have a boy, you worry about one dick. With a girl, you worry about every dick in town!

Yeah, boys are easier. My standard line is "PUT A RUBBER ON IT!"

[meaculpa2011]

12. Bingo!

I have a son and a daughter and I've coached them in every sport. When the boys get out of line you can yell, grab by the scruff of the neck or send them off the field until they cool down. If I look at any of the girls cross-eyed, they burst into tears. After 40 plus years of marriage I still don't know how to deal with that. My shortcoming.

My wife and I have been together since the LBJ administration. When I ask what's wrong and she says, "Nuhhhh-thing" I still say:

"Okay. I'm going fishing."

Makes me a bad guy, right?

[seabeyond]

14. then maybe we ought to raise our girls without the gender influence. i was in an highly competitive

sport for decade and a half.... i didnt get to cry with instruction or criticism. i was expected to do. right next to the boys.

and i am sorry your wife has a problem giving a straight answer. i have to wonder the conditioning in that, too. when asked, i have no issue telling. sheeeit, i dont have to wait to be asked. hubby tends to need to be asked more than i. and he tends to gloss over more than i.

[HopeHoops]

20. My girls don't burst into tears - they strike a fighting stance - so does my wife.

They're all black belts. I'm not.

[redqueen]

21. Is yelling and physical intimidation even that good of a method for training animals?

Somehow I doubt it's all that effective with humans, either. Sure doesn't seem to be working all that well so far anyway.

Perhaps we should stop convincing boys that they need to bottle up their emotions, and stop pretending that girls are inferior for not doing so.

[seabeyond]

23. further, my sons that had coaches that behaved that way had issues with them

whereas in my sport, my (male) coach never behaved in that manner.

true that

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. Men who teach/coach boys have the benefit of having been boys themselves.

Yes. What women perceive as yelling and physical intimidation does often motivate boys.

Think about it this way, I think we'd all agree that the average boy is comparatively insensitive compared to the average girl. Disapproval that causes great trauma to a girl will often completely fail to register with a boy. The same with reward. If a coach gives Timmy a disapproving look for dropping the ball, and polite applause and a smile for catching it, the signal to noise ratio is too low for it to have much effect. The amplitude of the message is too low to be picked up.

Of course there's the possibility of excess. If you get too "full metal jacket" on a kid, they end up like Pvt Pyle.

[seabeyond]

55. i would not agree that the average boys is not as sensitive as girls. i do think we condition them

to be. my husband does not use yelling and intimidation as a parent. i am much more aggressive and yelling than hubby. not him at all. and he is no less a man. i see him more so and a wonderful example.

i had a male coach that coached girls and boys in the same environment. he did not need or use that style.

my son has a cross country coach that has none of that, and a track coach that is all of that. cross country made it to state.

[retread]

71. We condition them not to show sensitivity.

[seabeyond]

72. we so condition. i was thinking of nephews, sons, their friends at 3, 4, 5, 6, 7

12, 13, 14, lol

it is so obvious how much feeling they have inside. that we deal with so often, gently, when they are young.

it is just preposterous to me that we would suggest they dont feel the same and same depth as girls.

[redqueen]

60. So boys benefit from treatment that is shown not to work so well on animals...

sorry but I just don't find that to be plausible.

I'm not a man and have no experience raising boys, so I'll leave you to discuss that with other men and parents of boys.

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. Every successful male athelete was yelled at.

So it's apparently not entirely without merit.

[seabeyond]

79. some of the greatest coaches of all times, dont coach like that. and their players love them

that isnt about great coaches. it is about personality. some people are much more aggressive and yell. some dont. some wouldnt for anything in the world, it isnt who they are. and they are still great coaches.

tony dungy, football, colts
doc rivers, basketball, celtics
tom landry, football, cowboys
andy reed, football, eagles
Tom Walsh, football, sf
Mike singletary, football,sf

just a few

[meaculpa2011]

86. No doubt...

There are learning styles and teaching styles and coaching styles. When Coach Wooden was accused of having a double standard he replied that he had eleven different standards. I had some players that responded well to one approach and not to another. It's a very fine line only a few great ones can walk. For most, if you coddle one player and push another it will cause friction among the players and mostly among the parents.

For every Tony Dungy, Bill Walsh and Tom Landry there's a Mike Ditka, Vince Lombardi and Bill Parcells.

My daughter had a coach that was very, very demanding of her. She would complain that he was not that way with some of the other players. It took a lot of discussion to convince her that he expected more from her because she had more ability. In one game he pulled her off the court and made her sit on the bench. When her put her back in he said: "I'll give you three minutes to prove to me that you're baskeball player." My wife and I were sitting right behind the bench. Needless to say, we had completely different reactions until she stole the ball in overtime and drove the hoop for the winning basket.

On my first day coaching girl's basketball I gathered my players at mid-court and told them that we were all going to learn together how to shoot, dribble, rebound and play defense. A little angel-faced young thing looked up at me and said that her mommy said that they were here to have fun. I told her to tell mommy that it's much more fun to win.

My son played every sport and loved playing, but had very little ability. Pushing him too hard would have had a negative effect. His coaches were always supportive and gave him every opportunity to play to his potential.

[seabeyond]

88. true true true.... i have found this not only i my own experience in highly competitive sports

but also with my kids in basic parenting and the coaches they have had.

you stories have brought up so many examples i have in my head. not even gonna start in. but exactly.

[JNelson6563]

51. Should've gone with baseball. No crying in baseball.

&feature=fvst

[seabeyond]

52. my boys and niece were watching that the other day and i walked in at that scene

they were all getting such a kick out of it.

[JNelson6563]

59. Really fun stuff. Tom Hanks is awesome.

[seabeyond]

13. that is beyond silly. hm. girl get preg once. a boy impreg many. ya, worry MUCH less.

we really have to get beyond these stupid "jokes". that one does not even kinda make since. stds, broken hearts.... all the same. i think that is the point of the article.

[Nikia]

15. My former coworker had a daughter that gave birth a month prematurely

A month later, the father of the child became a father again. My coworker made some comment about his family being even more "thrilled" than her.

[seabeyond]

16. isnt that a stupid saying. and we have allowed to stand way longer than it should

reinforcing that the boy getting girls preg does not have a role or it does not effect his life.

[HopeHoops]

19. It's an old saying. When my third was born someone said it was God's way of paying me back.

[seabeyond]

24. i so know it is an old saying. so many of those old sayings, like boys are easier

and old and tired and need to be put away.

lol AND, yup. i agree with who told you about payback. lol. hence, my two boys, lol. i feel the same way. my oldest brother got a daughter for a reason. my husbands pig male friend got a daughter. my middle brother that didnt have the gender thing, got combo. so i gotta wonder about THAT old saying, with tongue in cheek.

[HopeHoops]

31. I was originally afraid, but they turned out to be great kids. No complaints.

[seabeyond]

33. a story.... i had two brothers. a year older and two years older

all of us in oct. too close in age.

for my mom, too.

lots of sibling fighting and especially between brothers.

i never wanted to get married for a number of reasons and being the peacemaker in family i always said ONE child cause i hate fighting, lol (surprise). and no boys, thanks to brothers. oh, and middle brother name is jason, so NO jason. always in trouble, causing problems. really, forever i said this.

so, 32 i got married. had two kids, not one. boys, no girls. and a couple years later it dawned on me. hubby named son jonas. the second son. same as jason as a brother. all the letters the same.

isnt that a hoot

it is a joke in our family cause everything i asked for, i got the opposite and it is perfect.

my kids dont fight at all now. only a little younger, when oldest trying to boss youngest. they are so easy.

so i hear ya.

[redqueen]

17. And where does all this nonsense stem from?

The patriarchy.

I hope society is finally ready to liberate boys from its grasp. Not that we've managed to liberate most women, even.

[seabeyond]

26. "ready to liberate boys from its grasp." it is good to be a man. i have heard this on 3 commercials

selling different products. men are different... it is GOOD to be a man. you are a MAN. this is just off top of head last couple months.

i think there is a real push back cause more men are letting go of the tight conditioned rules of being a man.

yes, it is very good to be a man. how many women go around saying, i am a WOMAN. we just dont do that. there is not the need to make that exclamation.

[white_wolf]

28. Yeah, I don't meet those commercials definitions.

At least the way society seems to portray it. Even as a kid, I was very sensitive, I was never into sports, and I liked to read a lot. I do like videogames which seem to be viewed as something for guys, but even that view is slowly changing, I think.

[seabeyond]

34. exactly. i know

since somewhere along the way, i shed the conditioned roles and i was not really raised with them. the time gave me some. life is so grand. i want my boys to have the same.

my oldest worked at not crying at a certain age. being the talker, he discussed it with me. my youngest. still will at 14 and he doesnt care. his friends, which is just about everyone in school doesnt care. he will say.... i love you mommy... on the phone with kids sitting there and he doesnt care.

my oldest and i will just look at each other, shake our head and laugh.

youngest can pull it off.

but i LOVE that kids dont have to be confined.

i couldnt do strollers either, when they were little. i let them wander and i followed, at their pace.

[lumberjack_jeff]

49. There is a strong social undercurrent that it's not okay to be a man.

The pushback you're seeing is a byproduct of that. "Man" shouldn't mean one thing, but at any rate it shouldn't be a pejorative.

[seabeyond]

54. i think domestic violence is very relevant and not indicative of being a man. i think the courthouse

made a good decision taking them down, but more, listening to the few men that had an issue and complaint. i think that alone says something. i think the woman representing victims of domestic abuse has a point and i can understand why she would want them in that environment to reach out to those that would be in that position needing help. but i think it was a good decision the courthouse made.

that being said

that is not an attack on men. that is a very real problem that we all face as a society. calling out domestic abuse is not "a strong social undercurrent that it's not okay to be a man".

[white_wolf]

22. I don't know about raising children, since I don't have any. However I will say this:

I will say that in some ways boys are as oppressed by society's gender roles as girls are. For every girl who who gets attacked for liking sports there is a boy who gets attacked for not liking sports. For every girl who is stereotyped as being weak and overly sensitive and emotional, there is a boy who gets called a wuss and put down for being sensitive and emotional. Oh, and if your a boy, God help you if anyone ever finds out you actually cried when you get upset. I'm not saying girls have it easier than boys, they both have it hard and the roles society forces on genders is really messed up. I know from experience, the "boy" I was referring to in the post was me growing up, but I'm sure I can't be the only guy who is like that.

[redqueen]

25. [phone]

[seabeyond]

27. raising 2 boys, couldnt agree more. middle school PTA, a program for girls to deal with all the

Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012, 01:28 PM - Edit history (1)

emotional issues of puberty. i asked committee, what about one with boys. now, i was dead serious, cause my son was dealing with ALL that you express and having a tough time. he talked/talks with me about ALL this stuff. i was serious, serious question. i was rejected by EVERYONE (women) telling me not the same between genders. are you for real? i thought. all i hear from my son and committee saying boys dont need. i was told boys dont feel, boys dont talk about the stuff.

my world is much much different.

[white_wolf]

30. The only reason there are differences in gender is because society invents these roles.

Children have these roles enforced from the moment they can talk and sometimes even before that. For instance when painting rooms, parents often chose pink for girls and blue for boys. They often buy boys toy trucks and toy guns and buy girls kitchen "play sets" (since when is cleaning fun?), girls are told to play with dolls, boys are told to play with monster trucks. I'm not blaming the parents, its a problem in society as a whole. Have you ever tried to find a gender neutral toy for a child? I tried buying a present for my 2 year old nephew and I looked to see if I could find anything gender neutral and there wasn't a lot. I think if society stopped enforcing these roles, we would say that a lot of what we consider as "girly" or "boyly" is really just a myth. Granted, there will always be differences based on personality, but I think society enforces these roles to the point where it can really hurt both genders.

[seabeyond]

35. i agree. at about 2, i started buying dinosaurs. my son would start a river going around the

garden and down. he would create communities and infrastructure, lol. every girl that came over jumped in and played. pretty gender neutral. so was playing war (had to use plastic hockey sticks). son with gi joes, nieces with barbie. tag. basketball. coloring, sculpturing clay, paints, star wars.....

my youngest wanted me to have another baby. i bought him the most real doll i could find, at about 3. he loved the baby.

none in my family and my husbands family with nieces and nephews are raised by gender, but as people. i realized, i was raised the same.

and yes.... the store, especially girl section, the find pink. horrible.

[joeglow3]

41. I have read studies that disagree completely with what you claim

To imply that natural chemical differences that exist between men and women has no noticeable impact on personalities (i.e. it is all societal) is ignorant.

[redqueen]

57. There are differences, but they aren't all or nothing.

We see that sexuality is on a spectrum, and those chemical-related differences are just the same.

When we see real problems resulting from gender roles (e.g. calling boys 'sissies' or worse if they so much as hint at having emotions) then it would seem to me that the thing to do is not scrape up whatever evidence there is to support reinforcing gender roles, but recognize that such gender roles, while they may be due in part to physical differences between the sexes, are not cast in stone, and that portraying them that way to children is in fact the absolute wrong thing to do.

[joeglow3]

61. We discussed this a few years ago

My wife and I live in Omaha, Nebraska and went to a free Marriage Strengthening class that was done by a therapist from Boy's & Girl's Town. As part of one of the sessions, he discussed how boys and girls mature differently when it comes to emotions (as you are discussing). He showed studies whereby women "mature" emotionally in their late teens and early 20's and men do so in their late 20's. Ironically, for men, it coincided with when they typically got married.

This led to gender roles and a couple women in the room literally went off on how terrible this is and how we need to address it and stop these "gender roles." He basically said that is simply pissing in the wind, as this will continue within their peer groups no matter what adults do.

Years later, every competent source I have read has said essentially the same thing. That is why so few experts are lining up beyond idiots like that couple who kept their kids gender secret (while allowing him to do extremely feminine things and preventing him from doing masculine things).

[redqueen]

62. That's funny because Snake Alchemist is busy saying it's a myth that boys mature more slowly.

I suppose that since kids also encourage each other to smoke cigarettes and play with matches and who knows what other kinds of shenanigans, we should also stop teaching them to not do such things... surely that's pissing in the wind, right?

The fact is that not all boys are macho little ruffians, and not all girls want to be pretty pretty princesses. Indoctrinating them to think so while they're still too young to know better is a recipe for little boys who don't fit in their gender boxes to be harassed by the children of parents who think it's a waste of time to bother addressing the idiocy of this kind of thoughtless programming that serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever that I can tell.

Perhaps you might clue me in on what awesomely great thing teaching kids to conform to gender roles is supposed to do. Is there even one good thing that's supposed to come of it? Or is it just a bad habit that some people are too lazy to bother discontinuing, despite the very obvious problems it creates?

[seabeyond]

65. please give me a couple examples of those gender roles being reinforced that women went off on.

thank you

[redqueen]

42. Usually before they can talk.

Watch the way adults interact with babies. When it's a girl, you get "Ooooh isn't she so pretty!" When it's a boy, you get "Oooh what a big strong boy!"

Not always, there are many variations and some people don't work so hard at reinforcing gender roles, but it's fairly hard not to notice once you start watching for it.

[seabeyond]

43. what got me, was how many grown men told my 2, 3 yr old sons what men they were.

WHAT? boys. they are boys. and little boys at that.

when have you EVER heard a little 2, 3 yr old girl called a woman for any reason. fuck. hard to get a person to call a 50 yr old a woman and not girl or lady.

[redqueen]

50. I never thought about that...

but you're right. All that 'little man' stuff... before it was just common as air and just as noticeable.

Now, though... it will never stop seeming weird and creepy. Cause seriously... wtf.

[seabeyond]

56. i stopped it immediately. any man say that to my sons and i would look them in the eyes

and say, nope, boy. i corrected it every. single. time.

[Snake Alchemist]

39. Yep, no difference.

Kind of like the myth that girls mature faster than boys.

[redqueen]

44. This should be an OP. nt

[seabeyond]

45. and again, son next to two niece. way ahead. condition girls quiet and listen. boys go play

who is really going to learn more to mature sooner.

[Snake Alchemist]

46. Yep, no difference. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. Girls can go to their teachers, their custodial parents or to social service agencies

To get advice from people who have been there and know what they're going through.

Boys? Maybe they can find a sympathetic cop.

Even for the boys who do have involved fathers and other role models, their peer group of rudderless teens have a very negative impact.

[Jennicut]

58. Yes. Boys are told to "suck it up" when ever they have

something that is troubling them. Girls seem to have more of support system in place with teachers/parents. I worked with boys age 6 to 12 in a group home. These kids were taken away from bad family situations and placed in state care and they had a lot of issues. But getting them to talk was tough at times. Many told me they were taught to be "strong", be "tough" and not show their emotions because they were boys. It was really, really sad.

[SwampG8r]

29. ok...

remember the other day when i told you about things ?
this is what i was talking about
well done

[seabeyond]

36. lol

help... vaguely remembering, but last handful of days i have received so much 'constructive" criticism and advice, lol.....

??

[SwampG8r]

37. refocusing more than help

i dont think you would need my help

[seabeyond]

38. hey....

[SwampG8r]

40. back atcha

[librechik]

63. unemployment, unwanted pregnancies, and jail. Boys are NOT easier.

girls have all these problems too, tho, so don't get comfortable.

[seabeyond]

66. i love your cat jammin. nt

[Taverner]

69. It ain't - it's just different

As far as I can tell, little boys are just a different manifestation of crazy than little girls.

[Liberal_in_LA]

70. women haters says boys are easier. All things female are bad...apparently

[seabeyond]

81. unfortunately,

i have bought into that too. i think it is another societal conditioning that we have to think twice about. i realized a while ago, i would get people telling how much easier my boys are and realize how i was dissing girls, agreeing with them. and i thought about the effects and stopped.

we are all, both genders, conditioned. it is ours to recognize and stop it.

[retread]

73. When boys act like boys we drug them.

-Boys are three times more likely to be diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder than girls.
-Boys are four times more likely to be prescribed Ritalin.
-Currently over one million boys in the United States take Ritalin daily.

[seabeyond]

76. i was brought into kindergarten to observe my son

the teacher and i discussed it afterwards. not the hyper of add. or whatever he is. i refused the drugs and never had him diagnosed. but..... the majority of teachers 8th grade down were aware of his difference and some really good teachers and i came up with some really good tools for him to implement to help him.

i dont know if that is as much an issue. it seems there was a pretty big outcry about this 5 yrs ago? hopefully, they are more aware and drug less and not use it just to keep kid quiet at the desk.

[redqueen]

77. I wonder if any of it might stem from being emotionally stifled.

It can't have no consequences, telling tiny children to stop feeling what they're feeling... telling them they're not allowed, while other children get to have their feelings, and be comforted too... while they're told to stop showing it, and left to console themselves...

[JCMach1]

80. Depends on the kid, but the OP's point is taken

Society really does for F'd up things to us...

[Darth_Kitten]

82. Boys easier to raise? I don't think so....

Not having to listen to my friends and acquaintances...it's like boys are giving licence to do anything, and the parents don't want to do anything to discipline them. Girls are never allowed to get away with the stunts boys get to pull, imo.

I would never say to my mother what boys say to their mothers nowadays, it's pathetic.

[seabeyond]

85. i have been thinking about this, what i see. and i think kids, both genders

say a lot of stuff that would not have been allowed. but then, i think a lot of adults say things today, that would not be said in the past. polite, considerate seems to get the response of pearl clutcher. where do these kids learn?

[fishwax]

87. interesting read, though I don't understand the opening sentence

"If this is what boys being easier to raise than girls looks like, could you imagine how many men would be in jail if raising girls got any harder?"

Men are in jail because parenting is tough? Even in the context of the article (it follows the statement that men are 15 times more likely to be in jail than women) it doesn't make sense to me. Maybe someone can explain what I'm missing.

[seabeyond]

89. i dont think it was the best sentence in the whole article....

but what i am getting is, our boys are having such a tough time as it is, that to suggest this is easy shows how foolish we are being.