Wow, this whole debate of sexism topics, like door holding, makes me wonder if I was raised wrong...

[Logical]

I have offered to help women carry in large items from their car at work.
I have offered to change a flat tire for women on the side of the road.
I have opened doors for women.

I will admit I usually do not always make the same offer to men in the same situation.

I do not think women are not capable of doing the above things. But....

For the tire, I know many women have never changed a tire (right or wrong), so I offer to help. It does not mean I think that are weak and worthless. I assume most men have changed a tire. Does that make me a sexist?

For the big box at work, most women are also carrying a purse. And many women are smaller than I am and if I can help with the box since my hands are empty then I offer to help. I am not thinking women are too weak to carry the box. Just offering if it will help them.

For the door, I was always raised to do it. I have done it since I was a kid. Just habit. No motive except just being polite.

If someone did any of the above things for my two teenage daughters I would not think they were being treated sexist. And neither do my daughters.

Very confusing to me. I hate that what I think is being polite would come across to women as sexist.

[quinnox]

1. you aren't doing anything wrong

Ignore the folks who try to push wacked-out and extreme theories around this, otherwise you may as well start to give Scientology teachings credence.

[Vinnie From Indy]

2. Based on what I have read here on DU,

you are seen as sexist by about 10 to 15% of the women for whom you do these things. Now, please know that this is just a rough estimate and it is by no means scientifically tested and peer reveiwed.

Cheers!

[jehop61]

3. I'm beginning to think

we have a troll amongst us trying to stir up dissention in the ranks. This whole thing is ridiculous and silly. Feminists have many more concerns. Hope you guys out there are getting bored with your little prank. I'm, of course, referring to the trolls who started this phony sexism debate.

[marions ghost]

22. Definitely phony

ridiculous & silly--but seems to have brought out a whole lot of defensiveness.

-----------------------

Men who are sexist KNOW they are sexist.

Men who know they are NOT sexist should not need to defend themselves.

[hlthe2b]

4. Being polite and helpful to others--regardless of gender or age--is something we should all strive

to do, IMO.

I don't know why some are making such a big deal or trying to start a flamefest on this. We have little enough basic politeness towards others in our current society--anything one can do to make a difference makes society inherently "better".

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

70. Yes, yes and yes, it's called being kind to one another.

Don't read into this anything other than that.
You get the culture you create.

[SoCalDem]

78. Amen.. I help whomever needs help

Anytime I see a Mother with a toddler in tow and a stroller, I always help because others helped me in the same circumstance and I appreciated it big time..

It's second-nature if you were raised correctly and being polite and helpful is for all ages, both sexes and it's not sexist..

[LittleBlue]

5. Should women be given especially courteous treatment by men?

Beyond the doors, that's what the debate centers on. DU feminists say it isn't about the door. That's party right, because it has to do with special treatment of women in general by men. They're wrong to discount the door example completely, because it's the most obvious example one sees in everyday life.

Personally, I do the chivalry thing. Doors, chairs, heavy loads, etc. Sexist? I don't know. My mom told me to do it. Over the years, these courtesies have become habit. It makes me feel good, and women don't seem to mind it, so it's a win-win from my perspective. If they do one day come to hate it, I hope one day they will tell me rather than smiling or thanking me, then I'll stop. Until then, I'll keep doing it. My girlfriend, who is in her 20s, seems to like it too, so I don't feel old fashioned doing it.

[1monster]

57. The door bit is a red herring. I open as many doors for men as men open for me... It's

a courtesy thing.

[dipsydoodle]

6. I was well brought up same as you.

The focus being on politeness good manners and kindness being its own reward totally dissociated from the sex of anyone else involved.

[Trajan]

7. I'm with quinnox on that one

There exists an extreme hypervigilance that seems to take hold in DU .... The smallest slights are magnified into hideous crimes .... It gets tedious to spend time worrying about such microscopic nitpicking ...

I am known as 'The Doorman' at work because I hold the door for anybody, including women ( what a sin!) ...

Just more DU silliness ...

[olddots]

20. " hypervigilance " says it all

there is a lot of cyberdisinhibtion going on too .

[dballance]

8. I don't think you're doing anything wrong. Being polite is okay.

As for holding the door I was raised to be polite. So I hold a door open for women and men. Gender is not an issue for me.

[NaturalHigh]

9. That's the way my parents raised me too.

Grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. reinforced it.

It's just the usual suspects stirring the pot here on DU.

[abbeyco]

10. It hurts my heart to read this.

I'm just stunned that some just cannot accept basic polite and nice behavior without making it sound dirty and demeaning. I love having a door held open for me just as I am more than happy to give up a seat to someone more seasoned than me or a pregnant woman - it's just being considerate and thoughtful and NO ONE should be slammed for that.

Can't we all just be polite or even nice to each other?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Apparently, the squeemish are incapable of saying "No, thanks" to someone performing a courtesy.

[MineralMan]

12. I think it's more of an academic issue than a real one.

In trying to define sexism, it's only natural that people would have a look at all the ways women are treated by men that are different from the way men are treated by men. This "chivalry" thing is one of those ways men treat women differently.

At the same time, things like opening doors are done in a spirit of being polite by most men. It's how they were taught to behave, often by their own mothers. There's no malice involved in the vast majority of situations where men behave in ways you might call "chivalrous." There's no negative connotation in those cases, either, and most people on the receiving end of such courtesies treat them as a kindness.

Still, when looked at academically, rather than practically, a case can be made for what is being called "benevolent sexism." Like most academic discussions of human behavior, this discussion has little to do with actual people doing actual things. It's more about trying to get to the root of sexism by people who study that aspect of human behavior.

Now, it is entirely possible for a man opening a door for a woman to be a negative, demeaning action. That sometimes occurs, when it's done with a comment that makes the woman feel small and helpless. Such men are boors, and are not actually behaving in a polite manner. They're playing a passive-aggressive game. It would be the same as some guy holding a door open for me, saying as I passed through it, "There, you weak old geezer. I did you a favor." Naturally, I wouldn't receive such a statement or favor well at all. Neither do women, when treated that way.

Nobody, I think, is calling for men to stop doing polite things. I don't think so, at least. Personally, I open doors for everyone, anytime I'm the first to arrive at the door. If I encounter someone holding a door when a number of people are passing through, I'm the guy who takes it so the door-holder can enter. It has nothing to do with the gender of the people involved. It's just a courtesy. That's the spirit in which I do it, and I've never had anyone object in any way to my holding a door. I've been ignored, but usually people say, "thanks" and go about their business.

It's important not to take academic discussions of things like this personally.

[daleanime]

33. Bingo!

We have a winner!

[ben_thayer]

53. THIS! nt

[Pmc1962]

56. Benevolent sexism is often about power

I am always happy if someone is polite, male or female.

However, when it becomes about power, it stops being polite.

When I was in school in the south, my Southern male classmates would hold the door for me but would adamantly refuse to go through if I reciprocated. They refused my courtesy based on "being polite". It was an awfully rude way to be polite. They refused to budge and it became about power. Courtesy/politeness/chivalry was nowhere in evidence, despite their protestations.

We should all be good neighbors and friends, giving or accepting courtesies regardless of the identity of others.

[Luminous Animal]

13. For the bazzillionth time. It is not about common courtesy, it is about this:

no matter how many people keep pretending it is.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111004121314.htm

Glick and Fiske have shown the negative consequences of attitudes that idealize women as pure, moral, pedestal-worthy objects of men's adoration, protection, and provision. People who endorse benevolent sexism feel positively toward women, but only when women conform to highly traditional ideals about "how women should be."

Benevolent sexism motivates chivalrous acts that many women may welcome, such as a man's offer to lift heavy boxes or install the new computer. While the path to benevolent sexism may be paved with good intentions, it reinforces the assumption that men possess greater competence than women, whom benevolent sexists view as wonderful, but weak and fragile.

Cross-national comparisons show that hostile and benevolent sexism go hand-in-hand (that is, nations that endorse hostile sexism also endorse benevolent sexism). The beliefs work together because benevolent sexism "rewards" women when they fulfill traditional roles whereas hostile sexism punishes women who do not toe the line, thereby working together to maintain traditional relations. In other words, act sweet and they'll pat you on the head; assert yourself and they'll put you in your place.

Numerous studies by various researchers document benevolent sexism's insidious effects. For example, when led to expect benevolently sexist help in a masculine workplace, women became unsure of themselves, got distracted, and consequently performed poorly.

[NaturalHigh]

24. I think you literally have posted that a bazillion times.

[Quantess]

14. You know, for someone who calls themselves "logical"

I think a better name for you would be "passive aggressive DUer".

Are we really supposed to think you are confused? How about just say directly what most of us are thinking, "this is an overblown, stupid issue that nobody actually cares about in real life".

There, I said it for you!

[NaturalHigh]

16. This is an overblown stupid issue...

that only a few care about in real life. I think that's fair to say.

For some, it's all the rage, though.

[MattBaggins]

27. Institutionalized racism

is an overblown issue that few care about in real life other than angry minorities.

Am I right?

[NaturalHigh]

29. I don't know, Matt. Are you right?

I just found out what MRA meant a few minutes ago.

[Quantess]

43. Not true! Are you also a passive-aggressive DUer?

Just asking.

[sibelian]

110. Okay....

I'm done with you.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

15. My parents are assholes...

That's what I was thinking reading the posts re: sexism yesterday. You mean holding the door for a woman is sexist??? My parents are assholes for teaching me to be sexist!!!!

[Quantess]

17. Are you "clutching your pearls"?

Goodness gracious, it sounds like you are serious.

[NaturalHigh]

19. What does "clutching your pearls" mean? Seriously.

It sounds like it might be funny, but I'm not familiar.

[Quantess]

23. It's a reference to wealthy, prissy (maybe old?) ladies in old films / any films

who defensively place a hand to their throat and clutch their pearl necklaces when offended.

It can also occasionally be meant as a gay slur.

My point was, the discussion du jour on GD that has gone beyond simple "benevolent sexism" has devolved to "OMG I'm pretending I don't know how to act in public anymore!"

[NaturalHigh]

30. Got it. Thanks.

[dipsydoodle]

31. Like so

[NaturalHigh]

32. That's great!

Visual aids make all the difference.

[Quantess]

34. I wish I had a fainting couch!

Actually, I kind of do. It looks cool!
Thanks for the visual.

[dipsydoodle]

37. I got that from else where here when I googled for an image

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002292298#post1

[ChisolmTrailDem]

75. I wasn't "clutching at my pearls", my comment is far from a good example of the definition. eom

[NaturalHigh]

76. Huh?

Did you mean to reply to me?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

73. Not serious at all. Sorry it wasn't obvious. eom

[Quantess]

106. I knew you weren't.

Same as the OP. Good to hear that you admit to bad acting and pretend shock reaction.

[NaturalHigh]

18. I thought that a lot when I was a teenager...

but it was mostly about the curfew.

[MattBaggins]

28. Did your parents teach you to hold the door for other people or just women?

One of those is in fact a holdover of sexism.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

74. Wasn't just my parents teaching that courtesy. Was every adult I ever came across.

And I am the one that eventually began holding the door for anyone - especially those with their arms full or those who were disabled. Nobody taught me that, I learned it on my own as the best way to handle that oft-occuring situation.

[Melinda]

21. This entire subject centers around growth; change in societal mores and values...

We've all ages across the spectrum here on DU, differing eras with differing instilled values, changing times, recognizing the wrongfulness and hurt of the past and what was acceptable before vs what is being challenged and changed now. We each have our own subjective pov and experience, the older DUers each grew up during a time of deeply political/social change - some of us downright upheaval - and it's this juxtaposition of changing mores that confuses some of us - or so I think.

But then, this is my own subjective opinion afterall, isn't it.

The subject du jour isn't settled by any means, hence the heated discussion. It's growing pains. It's how we arrive at understandings and changed behavior. Regardless, this doesn't, imo, invalidate what we were taught when young. It is most likely in fact generational, and what we learned to be courteous manners are not wrong. I think the conflict comes into play when what has been acceptable behavior during our lifetimes is now called out as bad behavior, and we internalize the criticism as a negative reflection upon our person.

Society changes, values change, time changes everything... and the old soon dies away, anyway.

[justiceischeap]

119. I made a similar comment in a similar thread

It's about context and very definitely generational and maybe even cultural.

I work with a woman that waits to have doors opened for her...even by other women. I don't know what to call that, other than rude or laziness, but it is what it is. She was also born in Africa and she is also from a privileged family. Does that inform her actions? I'd say it probably does. I finally got to the point where when we'd get to a door, I'd stare at her until she opened it. She expects people to open the door for her less now but she still expects it.

Lets face it, Miss Manners Emily Post is probably turning over in her grave about now because things are just different. Men don't generally (intentionally) walk on the outside of the sidewalk anymore to protect women from cars and road debris (water). They certainly don't lay their coats over mud puddles and sometimes when men and women dance, the woman leads.

[MyshkinCommaPrince]

25. Keep being polite.

I hold doors for just about anyone, in public places. If someone takes your being polite the wrong way, that's reflective of their own issues. They may have good reasons for their responses, or bad reasons, but they should be the ones to stop and think if they are reacting to civility with anger, fear, frustration, or whatever. People, as a class, are varied and inconsistent. But they also, as a class, really need to be more polite and decent to one another. They're all kind of stuck with one another.

Since I'm making assertions on the internets, I probably need to waffle a bit and add the obligatory "IMHO", here.

[fizzgig]

26. and i know plenty of men who have never changed a tire

why do you assume that men have and women haven't?

i sure as shit know how to change a tire.

[marions ghost]

36. Men, here's the answer:

...when it comes to little courtesies and niceties and manners.

Treat a woman carrying a box and struggling to open a door EXACTLY as you would treat a man carrying a box and struggling to open a door.

With the exception of the elderly or infirm, do NOT open any more doors or pull out any more chairs for a woman than you would for a man. Do not run around in front of a woman to open a door, do not run around a car to open the door for her, do not wait for her to sit down before you do. You really can act natural. (And forget the tired old "Ladies First"--antiquated phrase, leftover from a time when ladies were not first in any OTHER way...)

That's all there is to it.

----------

(And women, try to be nicer when you are behind the wheel of your Dodge Durango....)

[IdaBriggs]

112. Men - except for me. Please ignore her when it comes to me.

You generally have better upper body strength than I do, and I appreciate the help.

Hold the door anytime - I will reciprocate as appropriate.

And bless you if you stop to help with a tire - sometimes the stupid lug nuts get stuck, and again, you have that awesome upper body strength thing going on, so THANK YOU!

Also, tall people who can reach things up high? I am short, and appreciate the assist.

Kindness is always appreciated! Please ignore the extremist folk!

[marions ghost]

117. Yes we all like help when it's appropriate

and you wouldn't want it to be done when it's not appropriate, right?

It takes some sensitivity to know when and when not to. Most men are smart enough to figure that out.

They're just havin' us on with this. Ask yourself why there is such deep resentment to women who know that it is sometimes annoying and condescending--and dare to say so. Sometimes, not always.

One size does not fit all.

[RetroLounge]

38. Just the latest outrage from the usual suspects

making DU suck since, well, forever.

RL

[Quantess]

50. For once I agree with you, grumpy cat! (no text)

[Luminous Animal]

59. Yep. That would be all the DUers who started the stupid door opening OPs.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. Actually, if you really look carefully, you might notice that there is no "latest"

This show has been running continually.

It's like "Cats", or "The Phantom of the Opera".

[kdmorris]

101. Oh, shit... I laughed

I'm pretty sure I'm going to hell now...

[tularetom]

39. Don't give it another thought, you're doing the right thing

Whoever is attempting to make this a controversy ought to be ashamed of themselves.

I'm 71 years old and I've done the same thing as you. For as long as I can remember.

I've probably held doors open for thousands of women (and more than a few men as well).

I've changed tires for anybody who looked like they needed help and carried big packages for people who had their hands full. I'm sure in most cases this was women.

It's not sexism it's common courtesy and it should be practiced by everyone.

[lumberjack_jeff]

40. We were ALL raised wrong. When people talk about "harmful social norms", that's the point.

We weren't raised to value equality, and most of us, including progressives, recoil from actual equality as if burned.

Many women don't know how to change a tire because they have someone for that. They might not know his name, nor his face, nor pay anything for the service, but he can be expected to arrive, do his manly duty then leave so she can return to the office to write articles about the pay gap.

Personally, I think 90% of progress is examining ones attitudes.

Very confusing to me. I hate that what I think is being polite would come across to women as sexist.

Seriously? You're worried that the woman whose tire you just changed for free might think less of you?

[riqster]

41. The problem is this; people assume they can read your mind and divine your motivations

Sexism is not opening a door. Sexism is opening a door for a woman because you are condescending. In most cases, the "openee" has no clue as to the mindset of the "opener"; they make an assumption and run with it.

And we know about "assume"...

[kdmorris]

42. As a woman, I will say that I don't mind any of these things

I have a lot of other things that are COMPLETELY sexist to worry about (less pay for the same job, my reproductive rights and those of our daughters being under attack, etc).

As my husband said earlier, when we get to the point as a society where we have time to worry about these things because we've solved all the other sexism issues, then it will be a great day indeed. We are far from "there" yet.

[Honeycombe8]

44. Tough for a man to know what to do, isn't it? You are a good man, Logical.

Keep it up.

Niceties and manners have nothing whatsoever to do with equal pay, etc.

I was at Home Depot years ago looking at casing to buy for my door. I was confused about all the selections and why some seemed to be pointed at one end. I stood there for a long time looking at all the choices and trying to decide. There was a very tall, very nice looking man standing next to me looking at something. He got his selection off the shelf, then sheepishly said to me something like, "I don't mean to insult you or anything, but do you need some help with something?" Poor man didn't know if I'd be grateful or angry or offended. I was so grateful he offered. "Yes," I said, "thank you so much." Then I told him what was confusing me, and he quickly explained the pointy ends (duh! I felt so stupid) and said, "I don't know about you, but I always get pre-primed. The easier it is, the better." I agreed.

I have never forgotten that, although it was years ago. First, it's remarkable that he noticed that I was difficulty. Then he faced the possibility of offending me, but sincerely wanted to help. That was no nice of him that I have never forgotten it. It doesn't sound like much, but ...I don't know why I remember that. I guess because I go to Home Depot a lot, and usually no one offers to help. (I also have never forgotten how handsome he was!)

I believe in women's rights, equal pay, feminism. But that has nothing to do with my being female, inexperienced with buying casing, not being as strong as a man, etc. Girls aren't usually raised with an education in home improvement, tools, lawn mowing, mechanics, etc. So we're at a disadvantage in those areas when we grow up, own homes, and have to (yikes!) mow the lawn for the first time or buy casing to do a simple home repair.

If I'm struggling with carrying a large box, I am grateful for anyone's help, male or female. I will likewise offer to help, when I see someone struggling with something or slipping & falling.

[The Straight Story]

45. Nicely stated (nt)

[NaturalHigh]

47. Well put.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. A vignette chockablock with unexamined attitudes.

I believe in women's rights, equal pay, feminism. But that has nothing to do with my being female, inexperienced with buying casing, not being as strong as a man, etc. Girls aren't usually raised with an education in home improvement, tools, lawn mowing, mechanics, etc. So we're at a disadvantage in those areas when we grow up, own homes, and have to (yikes!) mow the lawn for the first time or buy casing to do a simple home repair.

Yet you don't expect that disadvantage to translate into earning power? "At a disadvantage" as used in that sentence is synonymous with "helpless".

If I'm hiring someone to do a job, it will be someone who I anticipate requires the minimum supervision, guidance and external help. The informal assistance one can expect on the job or in home depot isn't the same thing.

Your first sentence has everything to do with the second sentence.

[Honeycombe8]

61. I didn't make the rules. I just reported a fact.

Last edited Sat Mar 16, 2013, 04:33 PM - Edit history (2)

Girls, even today, aren't raised to know the ins and outs of mowing lawns, buying tools, how to use a circular saw. Boys are more apt to be raised to know a few basics of cooking and housekeeping, but even if not, housekeeping is not as complicated as home repair and lawn maintenance, not to mention mechanics.

Look around. Do you see any little girls having play tools at home, with their little tool belts and sawzalls? Or do they have glitter jeans and pink tennis shoes? Do you see any little boys making candy in the kitchen with mom or dad?

I'm glad it was THAT man who was next to me at Home Depot and not you. You don't sound very helpful.

Oh, and while we're talking ability to manage at work...I guess you didn't notice something important in my post. I was at Home Depot...to buy casing....for a home repair. I was replacing the casing around my door. I didn't hire it out. I did it myself. How many people, much less women, do YOU know that do their own home repairs? I've also done rewiring, changed outlets, put up a new ceiling fan, reworked my built-in entertainment center (using my Sawzall), put up new hardware for drapes (this was harder than the other home repairs)...I also do basic plumbing. Yes, I have plumbing tools, too. I've also cut (with my miter saw) molding and installed molding at my wall-celing. I taught myself all these things. And yes, I took my time with decisions at having to figure things out. And I wasn't stupid enough not to take words of advice from others with more knowledge. (that's often a man's way of doing things)

I'm pretty proud of my accomplishments in that regard. All that, w/o having a single discussion with a female friend about any of those tasks. No woman I know does any of these things. My brother, OTOH, has other men to chat with about such things. So I was at a huge disadvantage to begin with.

I saved $$$$$ by doing the job myself, and I didn't have to miss work for a repairman.

In other words, I got the job done cheaply, quickly, and correctly w/o interfering with my job. Just what everyone wants in an employee. And I wasn't stupid enuf to refuse words of advice from another more knowledgeable.

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. "No woman I know does any of these things."

Are you trying to make my point or yours?

The reason that girls aren't taught to run a lawnmower is because the cultural expectation is that they should be above that kind of work.

Exceptions (like you and my daughter-in-law) sometimes best illustrate the rule.

[Squinch]

46. Wow. There sure is a lot of outrage around here that not every woman wants to have doors opened

for them.

Doesn't seem like that big a deal to me.

But, jeez. Lots of outrage junkies.

[Whisp]

72. they are all 'clucking' their pearls.

the downtroddens are revoltin' and chattering amongst themselves about the inequities of a man's life!

Oh... yes, they are!

They are fighting about who takes Door #3, I think... *scratches head.

and who lifts the tomatoes off the old lady in the parking lot -

not sure what they are upset about actually but it's got to do with something threatening their way of life and masculinity. I think they will be requesting revolving doors in every building in the nation to solve this huge dilemma the poor things are confronted with.

[NaturalHigh]

87. You mean "clutching" their pearls?

I just found out what that meant today, so I plan to use it every chance I get.

[Squinch]

99. I feel bad for them. They seem upset.

[marions ghost]

80. Real chivalry

--21st century style--would be listening to what women here think about this and respecting it.

That would seem to be the route of the smart (non-sexist) guy.

[lumberjack_jeff]

84. That is simply redecorating the pedestal.

In a work-crew consisting of one man and one woman, benevolent sexism is indistinguishable from hostile sexism when it's time to send someone into the septic tank.

Sexism is all one thing. The guy going into the septic tank with the shovel is at least as qualified to hold an opinion on the topic as the woman who was denied the opportunity.

[marions ghost]

89. Huh?

Not getting what you're saying about septic tanks. That's a job situation where you draw straws I guess.

I thought we were talking about unnecessary deferential treatment. It's always a put-down, whether done to men or women. It's maybe more benign if it's ingrained from childhood rather than calculated. But still no good. (Of course men do it to other men --to one-up them....they portray that so well on Madmen. That's the calculated kind).

I agree that sexism is sexism.

Let's not redecorate the pedestal then...chivalry of any kind is dead. Let's just say any guy who is insisting on this "chivalrous" behavior in spite of the fact that some women don't like it....hmmmmm....let's just say I don't think you want to go to bed with that guy...

I'm all for inter-gender politeness.

[NaturalHigh]

88. There are differing opinions among women here.

I expect there are differing opinions outside the DU world, too.

[marions ghost]

94. I expect so too

...and your point is....?

My point is...the opinion that differs from yours is not wrong, and maybe you could even accept the validity of that fairly widespread opinion that differs from yours.

[Squinch]

100. You're right. And yet, that doesn't seem to be happening. The poor things are beside themselves.

[marions ghost]

109. I keep wondering why

anybody would fight so hard for the "right" or whatever it is, to open doors for able-bodied women (not encumbered by boxes, strollers, groceries, etc). Am not understanding the deep need to do so. The men I know do not do this.

In this dog-eat dog culture are people that hard up for a feel-good moment or something? Is it just habit or is it more symbolic?

Why can't men understand the idea that this can be felt as an "elbow check" by women. What man has not felt the elbow check from some Alpha Male? What mystifies me is how many men don't seem to get it. Are they all older men, who had this instilled as kids?

Seems like nobody wants to talk about the doors that are REALLY closed to women.

[Squinch]

114. It seems like a giant pout. I think there is a very wide swath of middle ground on both sides:

men and women who will open doors for whoever needs the assistance, men and women who appreciate the assistance, and we all know there is nothing wrong with that.

The outrage here seems to be from some folks who have assumed that when they open doors we are all mentally applauding them and noting their chivalry. They seem to have just discovered that most of us don't think it's that big a deal when someone, man or woman, opens a door for us, and we don't think it's a big deal when we, whether we be men or women, open a door for someone else.

The whole thing seems to be a big bout of disappointment that the act isn't overly admired.

It seems to me that the pedestal of chivalry that some of our friends have put themselves on has been dinged.

[marions ghost]

116. Maybe we should give 'em some chivalry mugs and t-shirts?

I think the anger and resentment here probably stems from the mixed messages--ie. women want to have doors opened for them but they insist on other forms of equality. It causes some dissonance. Men have less tolerance for ambiguity and contradictions maybe? Men do know when they are being sexist. So why be so defensive when subtle forms of sexism are pointed out? How about the entry below where the angry guy defines it as "Chivalry--the act of a self-deluded sucker." Should we adhere to old mores that cause resentment on the part of some men (and women)?

The dissonance seems evident here:

From Urban Dictionary
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=chivalry

chivalry

something that's dead and should stay dead.
Son: Daddy, why do I have to let her go first? she's a creep to everybody.

Dad: Because, when somebody has a certain chemical called estrogen in their body, they automatically deserve more respect than you. It's called chauvinism, I mean chivalry.

Son: BULLCRAP!!
buy chivalry mugs & shirts

2. chivalry

Something that people always say is dead, but no one seams to know what the hell died..
"Sarah likes Big Macs!"
"And they say Chivalry is dead.."

3. Chivalry

Something women complain is dead even though it cannot logically exist in an equal society, which is something women wanted. It's one or the other.

Jesse lamented about the death of chivalry while she lambasted the days when men oppressed women which was a time when chivalry was common. Makes perfect sense.
buy chivalry mugs & shirts
men women equality doublethink cognitive dissonance white knight

4. Chivalry

women killed it... they don't like when we are nice to them anymore (so fuck opening the doors, taking their jacket, or telling them they are beautiful)

haha, yes !
"Would you like to go to dinner?"
-later that evening while she is chillin with her girls-
"this guy asked me to dinner, i am just gonna say i am busy."

buy chivalry mugs & shirts
date dating girls chivalry nice bitch dick asshole slut

5. chivalry

Choosing to not rape a woman, just because you want to.
Me: "Hey, Jonathan, that bitch is fine."
Jonathan: "Yeah, but in the name of chivalry, we probably shouldn't rape her."
Me: "Yeah, you're right. Damn it."

buy chivalry mugs & shirts
rape women kindness courtesy appeal

6. chivalry

The act of a self-deluded sucker. Self-destructive self-sacrifice in favor of those seeking to exploit or destroy the practioner. Self-debasement to those seeking exploitive profit and lack of due recriprocation. Often stupidly misconstrued by those practicing as honorable or altuistic.

Many travesties of justice, self-destruction, and the concealment and promotion of evil have come from the chivalry of fools.
buy chivalry mugs & shirts
stupid self-destructive idiot moron sucker dupe con fool deluded evil

[Squinch]

120. How do we get jobs working at the urban dictionary? Wouldn't that be great?

[marions ghost]

122. I'd love the job

...urban dictionary & other sites reflect society so immediately. Always wanted to be a social psychologist. The study of groups.

-------

I think this was an insightful comment from a guy:

"Many travesties of justice, self-destruction, and the concealment and promotion of evil have come from the chivalry of fools."

I think of the BFEE immediately.

Do progressive men NOT get the connection? Makes ya wonder.

Seems there is HUGE anger and resentment at the loss of outdated forms of chivalry from some men, and anger from other men (probably younger) that they ARE expected to adhere to it.

I hope that younger men (& women) can sort it out if their elders are too locked onto a rigid view.

(Of course younger people of both sexes should open doors for the elderly and infirm of either sex. That's a no-brainer. We're not talking about the loss of common courtesy).

[Owl]

125. How do you communicate to the would-be door opener that you don't want the door opened?

[Squinch]

126. I don't. I open doors for men and for women. Men and women

open doors for me.

Most of us don't get upset that no one is swooning with admiration for the chivalrous gesture. We also wouldn't be outraged if someone signalled that they didn't need us to open the door. Because, after all, it's just a door.

[we can do it]

48. You're doing it right, as long as you don't think that's all you need to to treat women right.

(BTW- I hold doors for others, help carry items and help push cars if needed for men. I am a strong woman and proud to be able to help out.)

Too many men think this is all they need to do to treat the "little woman" right. It's not. We need to be paid for our work, listened to and heard. We need for men to treat our bodies and what we want to do with them with the same respect they expect for themselves. This means also respecting the choices a woman might make as far as hair and clothing styles. We are not here as only something for men to look at and possess.

(Please don't think I am accusing you of this. Thanks for being nice and remember quite often men may need help with the same things you mentioned.)

[datasuspect]

49. it's just the outrage trolls

making DU suck.

[Squinch]

102. I know! All these folks who are so outraged that some women don't want to have doors held for

them!

It isn't that big a deal! But there have been, what? 10 threads in the past two days about this?

Outrage trolls, indeed! These poor guys are setting their heads on fire over this!

[sigmasix]

51. it must be exhausting

DU has a small group of people that specialize in the creation of manufactured outrage and self- righteous indignation over innocent mis-cues and attempted civility. It must be an exhausting life style choice; always looking for an excuse to accuse individuals of "sexism", even when there is no tuth to the charge. I do the cooking in my family because my wife and I have chose this approach- not out of some sort of sexism on my part. I open the door for my wife and she opens the door for me-not because of sexism- but because we care for each other and are always looking for ways to express our love towards one another. I get the feeling that people that don't understand the difference are not really interested in the truth about sexism- rather they are more interested in demeaning and denouncing anyone with the temerity to question thier self-appointed positions as word and deed police.
Life's too short to spend it looking for reasons to be offended by everyone and everything.

[gollygee]

58. The feminists at DU aren't the ones creating manufactured outrage here

There was a discussion where someone made an off-handed comment about benevolent sexism, which is an academic discussion, not about specific people or specific acts like one person opening the door for another. It's about big picture societal things. Someone asked her what benevolent sexism was, and she gave a casual answer thinking it was no big deal, and the outrage started by people trying to stir up shit. They've turned it into a huge crazy strawman, claiming feminists are upset about doors being opened.

And this thread and you are continuing this stupid strawman. The only people outraged are those who dislike the feminists at DU.

[seabeyond]

81. a man asked for a definition of benevolent sexism. i gave a definition. and you interpret that as

creating the outrage? who the fuck really has created this outrage?

OMG.... the same usual suspects do NOT want us men to be nice. those mean ole feminists.

not ONE feminist is outraged. NOT one feminist does not hold doors open, or say thank you when a door is held open. we have ALL stated this.

and we are the problem?

[madmom]

52. As a woman, I'd like to say thank you....

[littlemissmartypants]

68. Hear. Hear. n/t

[homegirl]

54. works two ways

I have always held the door or offered to help anyone, male or female, who was dealing with a door, a large package or children. I am now entering the classification of "little old lady" but I am pleased to say I still do it.

Mom taught me " Good manners are the best status symbol."

[NaturalHigh]

71. "Good manners are the best status symbol."

Well stated.

[ZombieHorde]

60. You were raised sexist, but most of us were.

For the tire, I know many women have never changed a tire (right or wrong), so I offer to help. It does not mean I think that are weak and worthless. I assume most men have changed a tire. Does that make me a sexist?

Yes, on this subject. You are making judgments about people based on perceived genitalia. Many women have changed a tire before, and many men have not changed a tire before. This information cannot be gained merely by genitalia.

[Nye Bevan]

62. "I know many women have never changed a tire".

I'm not sure whether or not to work myself up into purple-faced outrage over this statement. Need some pointers from the specialists, please.

[Squinch]

104. I know many haven't too. But I also know that many HAVE. So what? Why the outrage? Multiple

threads over the fact that some women don't like having doors held for them. Big freaking deal. All that hair on fire seems very silly and quite hysterical.

[Milliesmom]

64. I love being treated by having a "Gentleman" hold open a door or lend his hand when getting out of a

And many other small and big curtsies men extend to women. I appreciate being valued and do not take it as a sexist thing or as a pass. I guess I was raised in a different time period where you were not considered a gentleman unless you did these things.
My son complains as he was taught to open doors and let ladies go first, many who he states just glare at him, he is almost to the point of saying to hell with it.
I don't understand what is wrong with some women, they complain they want to be treated as an equal, and when you do treat them that way they complain you do not respect her by going first, letting her pack the heavy things and not holding a door open, wow! what makes some happy I wonder?
My three sons still open my door and help me and I love them for it.

[Logical]

77. Thank you for this. I hope most women feel like you do. That is the intent! n-t

[marions ghost]

79. Maybe the problem is...

some women may think this is being treated "special" --but there are many who don't.

So I guess if you do the opening doors thing automatically for a woman (where you wouldn't do it for a man), you might be open to reconsidering the practice? Wouldn't it be better not to risk offending?

Not talking about never opening a door for anybody, just not going out of your way to automatically do it for every able-bodied female stranger you encounter, like it's your job and you must. (Those days ARE gone.)

If you know the woman and know that she likes it, well so do it.

Seems like you would consider hearing the other side? Many women have experienced this practice as demeaning. Obviously it depends on the woman.

[ecstatic]

65. I appreciate chivalry

It's actually mandatory in my relationships. Why would I want to date someone who can't even hold the door open for me? I set aside my standards once, with DISASTROUS results. But I understand that different people have different preferences.

[proReality]

66. Being respectful and caring is never wrong!

Keep up the good work.

[littlemissmartypants]

67. Are you married? Do you have a brother? I rec. you clone yourself ASAP! eom

[dorkulon]

69. I would always offer to carry a heavy object for someone (man or woman) who would have a harder time

doing it.

Only difference is men would be more likely to be offended.

I hold doors open for whoever seems to need it, but I'm pretty sure women are capable of getting out of a car by themselves.

If a woman, or a man, is 5 feet tall and 100 pounds, or just has a bad back, or whatever, I'll help. It's not a man/woman thing, it's a big person/little person thing.

[Ron Obvious]

82. I always make sure to slam the door in their face...

If a woman is behind me, I always make sure to slam the door in her face. Wouldn't want her to think I'm sexist.

[NaturalHigh]

85. Careful...

I nearly got roasted for saying that after somebody else said it. I thought it was obvious sarcasm, but I finally had to go put the thing on there.

[Ron Obvious]

86. I feared as much...

Both that it was such an obvious remark to make that someone had said it before, and that its obvious sarcasm would be missed by at least one person. I'm really living up to my name, today.

for the record, then.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

90. When I was of dating age, I found the subject of car doors a little confusing

My goal above all was to make sure the lady was pleased. I usually opened her car door (even if my date was driving and we were using her own car) and shut it for her. Most ladies seemed to like it and expect it and some wouldn't exit the car until I went around the car to open their door. I met one who didn't want me to do that so after the first admonishment, I stopped doing it with her. A couple of ladies seemed to like the gesture but wanted to reciprocate by cracking open my driver's door from the inside for me by the time I walked around the car to my side, which I thought was cute. I always tried my best to get a feeling for what the lady wanted but sometimes it's confusing to be a male.

[Nye Bevan]

91. Opening the driver's side door for you from the inside was a very good sign (nt)

[marions ghost]

92. Don't you think that behavior kind of bizarre?

Did you bow and click your heels like a footman out of Masterpiece theatre? Sincerely, I can't imagine this--she is driving and you must help her out the door? This did not strike you as quaint but weird? Yes I can understand how you were confused if you were expected to do this. It seems like something out of Mr. Bean.

Can you accept that maybe some women these days do not appreciate such an assumption of passivity & get over it without feeling insulted?

No need feeling guilty if you have done this in the past, but I guess I'm just amazed by your story...it pretty well illustrates how old customs last beyond their expiration date.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

93. Well, it was some time ago, as I'm now 63 and I guess wasn't an old custom at the time

I certainly can accept that some women wouldn't want their door opened. My uncertainty over that issue and my attempts to know in advance what to do was the point of my post. I can also relate that at least one woman I knew would get very upset if a man didn't open her car door, whether she was driving or not. I have to also add that I'm only half American and grew up partly in Europe, where such manners as opening the woman's door are customary. As far as feeling guilty, I do not, as I have tried to live my life as a gentleman and always tried to understand and comply with the woman's desires. Why feel guilty about trying your best to be courteous?

I think your question as to whether I clicked my heels like a footman was pretty rude and insensitive on your part.

[marions ghost]

96. I understand that you might want to kowtow

to that queenly woman who sits like a lump waiting for the footman. Yes, I would give her what she expected also. (And hope she wants to make an endowment someday).

Sorry didn't mean to insult. The footman (Mr. Bean version) was the image that immediately popped into my mind with all that running around the car.

Do they still do this behavior in Europe--the doors thing? No matter what or who you are? I've only been to Europe traveling on trains with a backpack on my back and didn't get any deluxe treatment, just pickup attempts. Europeans at that level seem about as crass as Americans.

I appreciate your effort to be a gentleman. Actually I think what that means has changed, (and certainly the word is quaint) but I'm sure it is still a noble quest. As I said, I'm all for courtesy. For example--in hearing what the women around here have been saying, without the concerted effort to ridicule every last one of them.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

97. I haven't dated in years and years, since my late 20s

I have no idea what they do now. I once dated the daughter of the Spanish Ambassador to France when I lived in Paris (I'm no rich elite; we just were in the same classes at college and we got along). I have always been a formal person I guess, even when I was a professional musician with long hair in the 70s.

[marions ghost]

98. You sound like you'd make a good diplomat

...there are some arenas where formalities are a must. I would be hopeless in those careers, but I understand when it's called for.

People need to be taught manners and how to treat others. But there is such a thing as unwanted deferential treatment. And why be so rigid about adhering to your definition about it--that you insist on giving a gift not wanted? Better to give your gifts where they WILL be appreciated.



To you & the Irish.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

103. And you sound like someone whose bark is occasionally worse than her/his bite

but is basically a cool and decent person.

[marions ghost]

107. Thanks & I'm sure

you're the same.

My MO is-- Incorrigible sexists are repeat offenders and usually hang themselves by their own petard. They are so easy to spot it's pathetic. Rigid thinkers, no flexibility. Usually narcissists. I give em plenty of space. If they try to mess with me...

[malaise]

95. I see nothing sexist about any of what you stated

I love polite people.

[Warpy]

105. You aren't doing anything wrong

and help is often appreciated. A polite "no" is all it takes when such help is unnecessary.

However, offers of help should be verbal, even when the person you're willing to help seems to be struggling. Some folks really do want to do it on their own.

[BainsBane]

108. No women here has made an issue about doors.

By continually making a strawman argument out of opening doors, when NO ONE said she was offended by that shows makes clear exactly what is going on here. It's an effort to portray women's concerns as petty. I don't know why some here have such trouble reading and insist on repeatedly misrepresenting this subject, but the game here is obvious.

What women like me care about about is men who rape women and those who enable rape by saying women don't really mean no when we say no, or blame sexual assault on how women are dressed. I care about men who insist, against all evidence to the contrary, that women are less intelligent and capable than they, and seek to justify their continuing efforts to exclude women's concerns from political discussions. I care about men who beat women, kill them, rape, and justify it all by arguing that men have it so tough in the world. I care when women are demeaned in a variety of ways, including when men marking territory in public space through blatant sexism. I care about the fact that insecure men of limited intelligence feel a need to demean women to make themselves feel powerful, but of course in doing so they only highlight their own weakness.

I don't for a second think the most vocal sexists err by being too polite to women. They are anything but polite. They are instead actively engaged in an ongoing war on women. This door canard is all part of an ongoing effort to degitimate the importance of feminism and equal rights for women. Distractions like this are a cynical and manipulative.

[NaturalHigh]

129. Actually, I think it was a woman who originally brought up the doors subject.

[BainsBane]

131. She gave it as an example

She did not say she was offended by someone opening a door for her. This entire controversy is manufactured.

[NaturalHigh]

132. "Benevolent sexism would be holding the door open..."

Whether or not she said she was offended by it, she brought it up and called it (benevolent) sexism. It would seem she thinks it's a problem worth discussing. Then when some people call this out as ridiculous, all of a sudden it's their fault for calling it out.

[BainsBane]

133. Then discuss it theoretically

Rather than lying by saying feminists here object to a man holding a door open. Of course no one here bothered to read any of the literature red queen pointed to. That would take effort and thought. Plus the point is not to engage in thoughtful discussion but to instead manufactured a controversy as part of an ongoing effort to trivialize feminism and calls for women's rights.

When people engage in BS, I will call them on it.

[NaturalHigh]

134. The whole "doors" concept was so ridiculous...

it would have been wrong NOT to make fun of it. Yes, I will admit that I had fun with the subject. It was not an effort to trivialize anybody. The jokes (double doors, revolving doors, slamming doors, etc.) just practically wrote themselves.

[BainsBane]

135. When no one objects to something

And then men fabricate a meme saying they did, it's obviously EXACTLY what is going on.

[NaturalHigh]

136. If that person considers it "benevolent sexism"...

I can only assume that she objects to it.

[marions ghost]

111. Party in the Lounge

[Lordquinton]

113. Reminds me of another example

All the conservatives who are against gay marriage because they are so confused about how to explain to their kids why two men are kissing.

I hold doors open for everyone, I even open doors randomly walking down the street (when needed, I don't just open doors willy-nilly) What is so hard to understand that you just open doors for everyone.

[lost-in-nj]

115. as a woman

I hold the door open for anyone behind me
I will help anyone carry things if they need it
in general I try to help if I can

I can not change a tire so the help would be appreciated

what bothers me is usually when you hold the door open (for men and woman) some people don't say Thank You. they walk by you like it's expected... but I keep on doing it.. because it's the polite thing to do


lost

[sabrina 1]

118. You are doing nothing wrong. Just ignore the extremists in our society, they

are a natural part of the world we live in but thankfully for the most part, they are very much in the minority.

I think we grown, mature women know when something is 'sexist' and when it is not. We do not generally need some psycho-babble instructions to tell us what we ought to be offended by.

To be honest, I find the implication that any woman who has lived their lives NOT being offended by kindness, is too stupid to recognize something that is so apparently difficult to see, to be extremely sexist.

If it takes so many threads here to explain why we need to be offended when someone is merely trying to be helpful, then I would think someone is simply looking for reasons to be offended.

[seabeyond]

121. except NO ONE here is offended. but, that really cannot be a part of your or the others story.

you know. honesty doesnt get to be a part.

[sabrina 1]

123. So I'm 'dishonest' because I express my opinion that women in general are

not in need of being told what they should be offended by? THIS is yet another example of being unable to discuss anything rationally on DU when it comes to women's issues. You risk being called, erroneously btw, 'dishonest'. Let me correct you. I am perfectly and completely honest when I say that this whole 'benevolent sexism' meme is just another extreme attempt to divide people.

In RL, I have never met a woman who was offended by anything 'benevolent'. They are generally offended by nastiness, and rightly so.

If someone, man or woman, does something for me out of kindness, I simply will not be told that I need to be offended because someone somewhere dug deeply into those actions, and unable to attack men for being kind they label those actions with the ridiculous title which is contradictory in itself 'benevolent' sexism.

And I assure you I am being completely honest when I say that I find this whole thing to be absolutely ridiculous.

[seabeyond]

124. the dishonesty comes in stating women on du are outraged. i stated that clearly. no twisting and

turning.

[polly7]

128. Where did sabrina mention outrage?

You're basically calling her a liar for stating her own opinion on something (an opinion many of us share) and try to justify your insult by saying she's "stating women on du are outraged". Where did she state that? She said there are women here who don't need to be told what to be offended by, and recognize sexism vs. common courtesy just fine. What's so awful about that?

[Luminous Animal]

130. Not one feminist here has told anyone that they need to be offended about anyone

extending kindness.

NOT ONE. Is that clear? To claim otherwise is dishonest.

Staight Story posted an OP which included the phrase "benevolent sexism".

Someone asked what is benevolent sexism.

Seabeyond, herself, extended a kindness and posted a description and the shit hit the fan. Multiple idiotic threads that reduced a fairly complex concept to a triviality that did not exist... that feminists were offended by men opening doors for them.

In response to these fucking stupid threads, Redqueen created an OP to clarify that the issue was NOT about fucking opening doors.

But nooooo.

More fucking idiotic threads about doors.

The false framing of this issue has been ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC.

[southernyankeebelle]

127. Your momma raised you right. If you did any of those things for me I would be greatful and I

would thank you nonstop because many men don't do it any longer. I am afraid to change a tire. I have always been afraid to change a tire. Many guys have openned the door for me and I always say thank you. Women who get upset by that should be ashamed of themselves. By the way I have openned a door for a guy when I get to the door first. He says thank you.

[WhollyHeretic]

137. This manufactured outrage is ridiculous

I'm not talking about the feminists. The number of long threads about a straw man is just insane.