Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:13 PM Mar 2013

"Benevolent homophobia". Or was it? Here's what happened...

Last edited Sat Mar 16, 2013, 08:43 PM - Edit history (1)

Now seems a good time to tell this story, and before I go any further I should say that the only reason I use the word "homophobia" is because it's the only extant word describing treatment at the hands of heterosexuals based solely on one's sexual orientation. It's actually very difficult to say that the "perpetrators" were homophobic as none of them thought any less of me because I'm gay.

I worked for a while (3 yearsish) in a hospital office as a PA for a senior consultant at managerial level. The rest of the admin people in the department were all women. They were basically good sorts (well except the woman who shared my office who was *nearly* basically a good sort but had terrible self-confidence issues and had a nasty habit of picking subtle confrontations with everyone to make herself feel better. (All the other women noticed it, too) She was very nice underneath it all, but lacked the confidence to trust people with too much personal information).

I was "The Office Gay". This is not a position I would recommend to anyone, particularly. Whenever I was spoken to about something that wasn't about work it was, to begin with, largely about me being gay, but not to find out what *I* thought about being gay. It was pretty much entirely about what they thought about me being gay.

My position in the culture was laid out for me fairly clearly. I was to be ribbed jovially about being interested in ass-sex, assumed to be interested sexually or romantically in every man that walked through the door, denying my true self if I wasn't or clearly uncomfortable with discussing the subject and should "loosen up" and having special gay versions of ordinary human emotions that were distinct from ordinary human emotions that also needed to be explained.

The days would typically consist of small talk about work or the latest storm being caused by Donna (who hated black people and foreigners, and, everyone agreed, was never happy unless she was having some kind of long-standing feud with someone) or my roomie Florence's stubborn-ness and self-confidence issues and how it wasn't fair that she didn't have as much to do as everyone else or how crap Kelly was as a boss or how Ann, who had a terminally ill son who had an incredibly rare condition that was supported by a single relevant hospice hundreds of miles away, was in denial about something about her terminally ill son. Unless it wasn't about any of those things and instead was about me, in which case the conversations would mostly consist of "I saw the way you looked at that guy!" about some guy that was of no interest to me beyond being some guy that I had, in some context or other, looked at, or "you need to do X", where X was some gay thing that, of course, gay people always did that I needed to do also in order to be fulfilled or "Blah blah blah ASSES, sibelian, LOL" in which some joke would be made about someone's ass or my ass which was a funny joke that, being gay, I would find hilarious. Also, anything any of them did that was annoying that might result in my complaining about it was (despite the same thing being unnacceptable to their work-colleagues) entirely normal when done to me and any complaints from me that it was annoying resulted from my being a "queen".

I cooperated with this culture. Why?

Well, it was the "you're a queen", thing. It made it really difficult to complain. There's no point complaining if you're in a culture where your complaint actually supports the continuation of the culture that pisses you off... Also, telling people that constantly making gay jokes in my presence about how fabulously gay I am with a barely concealed subtext of how fabulous THEY were for seeing how fabulous I was and wasn't it fabulous that they were so open and accepting of me in my fabulousness and wasn't everything else they did therefore fabulous... in lieu of any actual jokes about other stuff, or actual conversation including me as I actually am would have resulted in a constant stream of "oh, lighten up". (Complex explanations of why anything that was expected of me in that job were annoying would be simply dismissed as "Feeing a little self-absorbed, today, darling?" or "...bad hair day. We get it, sibelian".)

There's another reason I cooperated, and this is an important one.

It was FUNNY. YES! I actually enjoyed it sometimes. Sometimes it was truly hilarious. Many of these women had excellent senses of humour. And it wasn't as if it was malicious, it was their way of showing me that they accepted me and wanted to welcome me into their office. They didn't really know anything about gay people beyond stuff they'd seen on television and assumed that I was one of the exciting, gay TV people.

I suppose I just wish that instead of showing that they wanted to accept me they just accepted me. Or even left out the "acceptance" altogether and just worked with me and spoke to me and cooperated with me in the same ordinary way that non-"special" human beings get to without endless references to the categories they belong to.

So, things went on like this for some time and I got really fed up with it. In particular I got really fed up with roomie Florence who just would not damn well shut up about how funny it was that I was gay. "Yes, sometimes gay people do funny things, Florence," I would think to myself, through metaphorical gritted teeth." "Yes, we can be tremendously entertaining and witty but that doesn't mean that my boyfriend having an asthma attack in the middle of the night requiring hospitalisation is a special gay kind of asthma attack requiring an anal exam that he would enjoy because gay people love asses so much that they can't stop themselves asking for rectal exams even though they can barely speak. I suppose the idea of gay people being in hospital might mean that they have to have a rectal exams but not always. And, you know, while we're on the subject, maybe sometimes gay people needing rectal exams in hospitals just wouldn't be funny, cos, you know, they're in hospital. Which might not be nice for them. It doesn't seem to be funny whenever you or any of the girls here need examined, does it? I wonder why not."

(He got better. He didn't need a rectal exam.)

Another person who enjoyed all the fun and games was Helen the Charge Nurse. She was, perhaps, the most enthusiastic of my "fans". She would walk in and sit beside Florence and start talking about her job and how ridiculous it was (which was true, some of the things she had to cope with were ridiculous, low staff, patients that shouldn't have been in hospital in the first place, consultants that weren't doing their bit...). She used to refer to the patients by their bed number.

"Proctoscopy for seventeen today," she would say. Then her voice would go up ten decibels - "NOT THAT YOU'D MIND THAT, WOULD YOU, SIBELIAN?". Pause. "Christ, the fuss she made..." Or - "not a single colorectal for months, that ward needs some work to do, lazy bastards. HEY SIBELIAN, MAYBE WE COULD SEND YOU?"

What would my response be? In the middle of managing 40+ meetings a week, 4 or 5 new major organisational projects a month, 100+ patient records to process accurately a week, and just generally unbelievable levels of support that my colossally over-achieving boss needed to stoke his ludicrous ego (his previous PA ended up in a relationship with him after having pursued him tenaciously for years by working ludicrously long hours, sometimes 8:00am to 9:00pm, to prove she was really interested in him and she had to give up the job because she was NOT going to be his PA and his girlfriend, sensible girl (she was the one that got me the job) so he was used to someone working something like an 80 hour week and was trying to get me, who worked 37.5, to do the same amount of work)... what would I do? Did I have time to go through the endless explanations of why Helen's demand for my attention was incredibly off-pissing, particularly in light of the fact that it wasn't really my attention she wanted but the attention of her imaginary gay friend that I was standing in for?

No. I didn't. Quick, quick, quick, think of something gay and witty. Fuck, uhhhhh...

"Helen... have you seen the male nurses on that ward...?"

Raucous cackles. Delighted laughter.

Total lie. I'd never even BEEN to colorectal.

I got more and more fed up.

Florence complained about me to Kelly. I forget exactly what about. (She did that a lot. There was one time where she didn't like the position in which I'd put my mail trays on my desk. She didn't like the way I organised the mugs next to the kettle and complained about that once, too.)

So, I had to have a conversation with Kelly about whatever my transgression was, and I think it must have been something I said to Florence that she didn't like because the subject of how we conduct ourselves vocally became the subject of the conversation. Kelly wasn't particularly "against" me on the issue and we got into a heart-to-heart about how crazy the office was (Kelly was loud and sometimes obnoxious but she was never a "fan" of my "gayness", also nobody liked her so she had no dog in this particular Florence fight (Florence also had her fair share of fights)) and I mentioned that it was kind of weird that Florence was complaining about the way I spoke to her given that she had on one occasion called me a "wanker" to my face and anyway what about all this endless "tee hee you're gay" stuff, which wasn't really homophobic but it did get irritating how frequent it was... Didn't we have the kind of office culture where we poked fun at each other jovially? I certainly didn't mean anything nasty by anything I said to Florence and I didn't like that she was upset.

"Oh, by the way, please don't TELL anyone I mentioned this "tee hee you're gay" stuff to you, Kelly, because it really just isn't worth it, it peeves me sometimes but, you know... a lot of the time it's genuinely funny and I don't want to be humourless jerk..." Etc.

"Fair enough, sibelian fair enough, I'll keep this confidential," says Kelly.

It was Thursday and I had the Friday off.

Came back in on Monday. Ooooooooh. The silence. The thick, palpable silence all over the office.

Kelly, of course, had told nobody in the office but had told pretty much EVERYONE all over the rest of the fucking hospital that I thought Florence and Co were homophobic and everyone in the hospital had told Florence and Co.

So the thick silence carries on for a few days until Ann bursts out with "I NEVER EVER SAID THERE WAS ANYTHING WRONG WITH YOU BECAUSE YOU'RE GAY!" and leaves the office. Various people in the office then open up all at once and take various issues at varying levels of intensity with me calling them homophobic and how it's a slap in the face and stab in the back and I'm basically an asshole.

"I. DIDN'T. SAY. THAT."

"Well, that's what Kelly says, sibelian."

And that goes on for a while.

Eventually I manage to isolate Florence, who, during the silence, had been just the most patient, composed, misunderstood and above GRACIOUS non-homophobe, entirely innocent and very very unjustly maligned by a silly drama queen.

"Uhhhh. Look Florence, I think we need to talk. Do you want to go for a coffee or something?"

"No. Not really."

"We can't really keep doing this, Florence-"

"You can't join in and not join in at the same time, sibelian. You can't have it both ways."

"What do you think I said to Kelly?"

"I don't see any reason to get into it, sibelian, and frankly-"

I've had enough. She gets the Sibelian Stare.

"I did NOT accuse you of being a homophobe. Do you understand me?"

She stares at me back with a fairly intense Florence Stare.

"What did you say then?"

Finally...

So I explain what I really did say to Kelly and why and the context within which my actual comments were made. Florence relaxes visibly.

"It's Kelly. It was Kelly..."

"Yes."

We have a very long conversation about how we relate to each other and how we've been making each other feel. I've been getting irritable with my workload and talking to her about it animatedly assuming that her support for me is unqualified (she typically presents it as such) and she reveals that my endless compaining about it has been stressing her out. She's been trying to lighten my mood, trying help by being playful and doesn't like it that I've just been going along with the way she's been doing it while secretly being pissed off. Well, it's not like complaining about that was going to make much difference, Florence! And I know it's not malicious, I know you guys don't mean to piss me off, it's just the relentlessness of it... No, sibelian, either we're allowed to do it or we're not, we're not telepathic!

"Fair enough, then Florence. No more gay jokes, OK? That'll have to be my rule, won't it? I don't like it because gay guys do it and it seems wrong that you shouldn't be able to.... I'll miss them a bit, I think, possibly... er... some of them..."

"Hm. Well, that's the way it is then."

"I didn't realise I was stressing you out. I'll keep a lid on it from now on."

"Alright then. Helen doesn't know about all this, incidentally, and she's going to be gutted. She really likes you.

"Well I'm not going to say anything to her, as far as I'm concerned all this talk of me thinking you're all homophobic has nothing to do with me. If somebody wants to tell Helen and Donna and Ann and Jessie and Joanna and Morag and X and Y and Z and P and Q and W.... do you see how many heart to hearts I have to do now...? What's my alternative? Making a public announcement? Holding a seminar?"

We talk more and she starts to see that if I go along with it nobody ever talks to me about anything EXCEPT "IT" and if I don't I go from "Good Office Gay to "Bad Office Gay". Everyone's going to gang up on Kelly now, also, which pisses me off. I know none of the rest of them like her, and God knows I shouldn't, but I do.

So Florence offers to talk to Helen. The discussion ends.

Florence clearly talks to everyone else because the gay jokes disappear and are replaced with conversations. Helen drops it, without a hint of disturbance.

For some months the conversations are sliiiiightly stilted. Then, as individuals, they realise that there are interesting things about me other than what I do with my dick in my spare time and everything gets a lot better.

There are several things I want to highlight about this story.

I really mean it when I say I don't think they were homophobic. Helen, for example, is a lovely person and we talked lots about gardening and my and her experiences elsewhere in the Health Service. She has some gay friends, largely of the "queen" type. She tells me later she was mostly going along with the tsunami of ass jokes because Florence did and had presumably established that they were OK.

The whole "Sibelian as the Office Gay" culture was only present when there was more than one of them in the room. On a one to one basis it never happened. Ever. I don't understand this at all.

It really was just that office. I've worked in dozens of all-female-except-me offices and it didn't happen anywhere except there.

Some months after it all changed one of Ann's other sons came out as gay. We shared a moment outside with a cigarette one afternoon and she listened attentively as I explained what my own life had been like and what things he might have to be careful of in gay culture, particularly on the "scene", some of which is just horribly toxic. She was very grateful. We got onto the subject of the whole "Sibelian is No Longer the Office Gay" fiasco, which she tells me is still rumbling on in some conversations out of my earshot. So be it, I say to her, there's nothing I can do about that. It was never really the jokes themselves that pissed me off (welll... some of them were really a bit too much, I didn't much like the AIDS jokes) a lot of the time they were funny! But, you know... no joke is funny ALL THE TIME....

Her expression changes slowly as she finally gets it....

Guess who never joined in all these fun and games? Racist Donna! She got it from the beginning.

So. Do you think they were homophobic?

46 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
"Benevolent homophobia". Or was it? Here's what happened... (Original Post) sibelian Mar 2013 OP
I loved reading this OKNancy Mar 2013 #1
Thank you. sibelian Mar 2013 #2
I read the OP 3 times, and I have to say: Raine1967 Mar 2013 #16
..."insensitivity can often be used confused with -ism or -phobia or -otry" sibelian Mar 2013 #32
I bet you feel Bay Boy Mar 2013 #3
Well, you don't have to read them if you don't want to... sibelian Mar 2013 #4
Well you took that the wrong way.. Bay Boy Mar 2013 #12
Ok then... sibelian Mar 2013 #15
I don't think they were homophobic. enlightenment Mar 2013 #5
Florence and I become pretty good pals. sibelian Mar 2013 #8
A Wonderful Account, Sir: Thank You For Sharing It The Magistrate Mar 2013 #6
Thank you! sibelian Mar 2013 #9
They may not have been malicious, but they seem incredibly misguided. nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #7
Well, it wasn't entirely their fault. sibelian Mar 2013 #11
Ahh, the days of being "the gay" Prism Mar 2013 #10
"Prism, read this dirty story I wrote and tell me what you think!" sibelian Mar 2013 #13
"Sex and the City is a cancerous monstrosity." nomorenomore08 Mar 2013 #14
I think it was very insensitive. Kalidurga Mar 2013 #17
I know. And really, it was quite difficult to know what to do sibelian Mar 2013 #19
Lovely music... Kalidurga Mar 2013 #22
dunno. i take your point, but it's not really normal office talk to talk about someone's vagina or HiPointDem Mar 2013 #18
Well, ya know whut? sibelian Mar 2013 #24
i've never worked in an office where genitalia was a major topic of conversation. i can only HiPointDem Mar 2013 #26
Ugh. Insensitive and incredibly unprofessional magical thyme Mar 2013 #20
Gah! sibelian Mar 2013 #21
^^^^^ this ^^^^^^^ n/t NMDemDist2 Mar 2013 #23
You should dump your job(s) and become a writer BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #25
Nice idea... sibelian Mar 2013 #27
Maybe check out some blogs that take content from different writers BrotherIvan Mar 2013 #33
...hmmmmm sibelian Mar 2013 #44
Great read. Very illuminating. Thank you. nt Xipe Totec Mar 2013 #28
Most welcome! :) nt sibelian Mar 2013 #29
Ah, the obsession with inserting male organs into holes. Gravitycollapse Mar 2013 #30
Mmmmm, thank you I think sibelian Mar 2013 #31
"one of the exciting, gay TV people" toddaa Mar 2013 #34
"it was the "office gay" who wouldn't shut up with the sex jokes." - Arg! It just makes me cringe! sibelian Mar 2013 #37
It was a racist joke that got him escorted out of the building toddaa Mar 2013 #38
Good Lord... sibelian Mar 2013 #39
Don't feel any obligation toddaa Mar 2013 #41
Straight people's preoccupation with gay people's sex lives is mystifying Blaukraut Mar 2013 #35
I'm not usually that bothered by it. sibelian Mar 2013 #40
Straight people have preoccupation with other straight people's sex lives Major Nikon Mar 2013 #42
They certainly do... sibelian Mar 2013 #43
I think this was an example of a special toxic office culture more than a homophobic one; hedgehog Mar 2013 #36
As a gay man let me first say that I can relate to this- cecilfirefox Mar 2013 #45
Cheers! sibelian Mar 2013 #46

OKNancy

(41,832 posts)
1. I loved reading this
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:29 PM
Mar 2013

I don't think they were homophobic, although that word ( on DU anyway) is thrown out a lot and has gotten away from the true meaning.
Maybe insensitive at some point, but you handled it well.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
2. Thank you.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:33 PM
Mar 2013

It's easy to cause offense without meaning to. It's my feeling that the intention is what should be responded to, not the surface...

Raine1967

(11,589 posts)
16. I read the OP 3 times, and I have to say:
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:35 PM
Mar 2013

I thought pretty much the same thing.

They were insensitive -- I find insensitivity can often be used confused with -ism or -phobia or -otry.

Sexism, homophobia and misogyny -- they exist. I believe sometimes people are just misinformed about things -- stories like this go a long way.








sibelian

(7,804 posts)
32. ..."insensitivity can often be used confused with -ism or -phobia or -otry"
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 05:48 AM
Mar 2013

Yes. There a great deal of that...

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
4. Well, you don't have to read them if you don't want to...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:53 PM
Mar 2013

Your attention is spent according to your own wishes, one would hope!

Bay Boy

(1,689 posts)
12. Well you took that the wrong way..
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:22 PM
Mar 2013

...yes I was light-heartedly pointing out that it was 'wordy' but I truly was suggesting that (I assume)
you feel better after getting it all out.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
15. Ok then...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:34 PM
Mar 2013

Live and learn, eh?

Me and my drama...













(Also, given the subject of the OP.... oooooooh the irony...)

enlightenment

(8,830 posts)
5. I don't think they were homophobic.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 06:55 PM
Mar 2013

That word has a pretty specific and negative meaning.

I would say they were largely thoughtless and pretty self-absorbed - but it sounds like you had a measure of that going on, also. It's the nature of humans to see their own issues as most important; to see their response to others as "right"; to believe that what they do is always done with best intentions. Doesn't make us bad, just human.

That's why we all need to haul out our own inner-selves for a regular dusting and check-up; to take a good hard look at our own behaviors, our own attitudes, our own beliefs. Then, when we - inevitably - discover that we have been less than fair to others, we need to address it. That's what you and Florence did - and it sorted things out.

Well done story; I admire your ability to lay yourself out in public in that way. It's honest - and pretty brave, too.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
8. Florence and I become pretty good pals.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:06 PM
Mar 2013

Which just goes to reinforce another bunch of stereotypes...!

Thank you, also.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
7. They may not have been malicious, but they seem incredibly misguided.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:04 PM
Mar 2013

I mean, no one likes to be the object of constant mockery, do they?

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
11. Well, it wasn't entirely their fault.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:15 PM
Mar 2013

I kind of let it get out of hand. The thing was it all started out fairly innocuous when I first started working there and and slowly over months it gained in volume and intensity... incremental steps. I had no idea that something like that could get out of hand. It really did, though, some of the things they were coming out with near the end were getting ugly.

Yes, they were misguided... partially by me...
 

Prism

(5,815 posts)
10. Ahh, the days of being "the gay"
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:14 PM
Mar 2013

I loved reading this. Sometimes I blame shows like Sex and the City which presented funny, catty gays as the ultimate fashion and status accessory to upper middle class white women.

I think the aspect of being "the gay" i disdained most was when it was used as a kind of sexual liberation. I had female friends who would freely talk to me about their vibrators and dildos, who would flash me their breasts and talk about their nipples and masturbation habits, because hey, I'm gay and I think nothing of it, right?

Meanwhile, I was quietly dying inside. "Prism, read this dirty story I wrote and tell me what you think!" Nooooooo.

I endured enough of that interaction to the point that most of my friends were straight males for a couple years.

There is a temptation to maybe put the benevolent homophobia distinction there, but mainly I think it's a mixture of boorishness, the idea that we're accessories like puppies, and a sort of stumpedness of some people on how they can signal they're ok with our orientation.

Most of them are trying, bless them. Some don't see us as people. And those I blame on Carrie Bradshaw.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
13. "Prism, read this dirty story I wrote and tell me what you think!"
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:24 PM
Mar 2013

Ugh.

Well I've managed to avoid that at least. Luckily I've also managed to avoid most of the women who think our purpose is to legitimise their own sex-positivity and my female friends are proper friends. Most of my friends are straight these days, in fact, I got very sick very quickly of twinks with personalities that consist of a poorly concealed plagiarism of "Will and Grace".

Sex and the City is a cancerous monstrosity. How do you say this to people who want it all to be true?

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
17. I think it was very insensitive.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:35 PM
Mar 2013

Can you imagine if someone constantly talked about what the same heterosexual women did in the bedroom constantly? Or if everything they did was seen through a lens of what they were supposedly attracted to? Anyway, it seems a double standard. BTW what does sibelian mean?

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
19. I know. And really, it was quite difficult to know what to do
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:55 PM
Mar 2013

I probably shouldn't have let any of it get started in the first place but it was only the third office I'd worked in where my orientation was an "issue" for the culture and nothing like that had ever happened before. You have to establish what the culture is every time and how you handle yourself in it every time, because you have to "come out" again... every time...

Sibelian is an adjective meaning "pertaining to or resembling the music of Sibelius". Sibelius was a finnish classical composer who wrote music of what critics of the genre call a very "Northern" flavour, not much warmth or melodic richness, very lofty and cold sounding, but often a great deal of grandeur and sometimes deep melancholy. More about feeling than cleverness, I guess, reverie rather than pomp.

Here's one of his, a sequence developed but never filmed for Fantasia, hope you enjoy...

Kalidurga

(14,177 posts)
22. Lovely music...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 08:18 PM
Mar 2013

Too bad they didn't make use of it in the film. But, it doesn't really feel cold to me. Lonely perhaps, but it isn't quite the same as cold. People who feel lonely may feel a coldness, but that is because they would prefer company, which to me means they aren't really cold. I prefer to be alone perhaps that makes me a bit cold, but I don't feel at all cold when I am alone. Sorry for the ramble, but this is interesting to me to ascribe emotion or temperature not sure which is being ascribed here, to music.

BTW, I wouldn't have been nearly as tolerant of those office shenanigans. I tend to be a bit more aggressive in dealing with people that are inappropriate with me. But, on the other hand you managed to keep on a friendly basis with everyone so your tactic seems to be a better one even if it did take longer to get the inappropriate behavior dealt with.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
18. dunno. i take your point, but it's not really normal office talk to talk about someone's vagina or
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:41 PM
Mar 2013

penis all the time (the equivalent to the ass talk). it's like they were treating you as though you were nothing *but* your sexual function, like that's all you thought about or did. creepy, imo and not really benevolent, even if done with a smile.

it's more like borderline sexual harrassment, the situation where one woman is stuck in an office with a bunch of men who keep commenting on her looks, physicality & making little double-entendres in her presence. they can always say "whats the matter, can't you take a joke," and maybe they believe it, but the fact is they wouldn't subject an older woman, a boss, or one of their male colleagues to that kind of relentless sexual focus).

what struck me most about the story, though, is that you managed to keep recognizing their humanity through all that and had the nerve to talk about it in the end without coming off too harsh.

so the story had a good ending, instead of the ending it possibly could have (mutual warfare, lawsuits, more damaging stuff, etc.)

congratulations on the way you handled it.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
24. Well, ya know whut?
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 08:39 PM
Mar 2013

I was once in a different office (again, all female except me) where there was a subset of the office for whom my orientation was regularly the subject of the day, but they were once more interested in what I actually thought about it, ("but which of you is the man and which is the woman?&quot particularly one young lady who asked me frequent questions about how much my personal hygeine differed from that of straight men and how often did I wash my dick and things like that. Did I moisturise? Did I feel like a woman when I took a shower? Had I ever had sex with a woman? Was it erotic? Why didn't I like women? Did I think they were ugly? Did I realise how that made her feel? And so on. She had no problem asking any of these things in front of the rest of the office, who, for the sake of "plain sailing", wouldn't acknowledge that she was possibly over-interested in my weirdness except privately, to me. In public they all supported her, loudly.

There have been similar offices. Most of them aren't like that one or the one in my OP, in my experience, but several of them have reacted to me in similar "look at the lovable circus freak!" ways. I suppose it must not be normal for primarily heterosexual offices to talk constantly about genitalia, but it's not been that abnormal for me.

I'm very glad you've told me it isn't normal. I wouldn't have thought it should be normal, but I wouldn't know. I'm not sure I've ever been in a normal office, beacuse all the offices I've been in have had me in them. Once or twice I've heard after having left the job that the rest of the organisation had named the entire office I was in "the Gay Office" because I was in it.

It's all a little alienating.

Thanks for your final sentence. I've never been entirely sure how "bad" or "good" I was in that particular situation...
 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
26. i've never worked in an office where genitalia was a major topic of conversation. i can only
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:31 PM
Mar 2013

think of only two places where it came up at all. one was a mostly all-male office i worked in at boeing where there'd occasionally be that kind of joking (not at my expense, but between the guys), and the other was an almost all-female university office where between a limited group there was occasionally some of that kind of talk at lunch.

i'm a woman, i haven't experienced it.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
20. Ugh. Insensitive and incredibly unprofessional
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 07:57 PM
Mar 2013

I had a boss pushing 60 once who it seemed spent all day, every day going on about his relationship with his girlfriend. The rest of us were supposed to be in awe, I guess. I was just, like Seriously, I don't give a flying fuck who you showered with this morning, and I really don't want to hear about it. Now I need brain and eye bleach to erase that image...

Straight or gay, I really and truly don't want to know and don't care. How is it I manage to go through entire days at the office without discussing my most intimate relationships? I must a freak of nature...

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
21. Gah!
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 08:05 PM
Mar 2013

I hate things like that. Some people have a fantastic talent for behaviour that's incredibly irritating but somehow always just about below the line of what you can reasonably call them out over... Your previous boss sounds deeply tedious...

BrotherIvan

(9,126 posts)
25. You should dump your job(s) and become a writer
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:13 PM
Mar 2013

You have a natural talent. Expressive, intimate, really know how to make a story and characters come alive. You could send this to a blog or a magazine. I don't know if you've ever considered it but you really should!

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
27. Nice idea...
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:40 PM
Mar 2013

But there wouldn't be many publications for whom the subject matter would fit their profile. Not even gay publications. Well, maybe some.

Thanks, though.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
44. ...hmmmmm
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:45 PM
Mar 2013

Is this a gay thing that gay people do that I also have to do in order to be fulfilled?

KIDDIIIING!!



I will certainly consider your advice... You are most generous with compliments. Thank you!

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
30. Ah, the obsession with inserting male organs into holes.
Sat Mar 16, 2013, 10:22 PM
Mar 2013

This is a societal issue. There is always the precept in any man's sexuality that the penis must be inserted into a cavity. It's a form of dominance.

For the unenlightened masses, there must always be vaginal or anal intercourse in order for it to "really" count as sex. They assume that two men sleeping together...well, shit, two dicks...there must be all sorts of anal sex all the time. That must be all you think about.

The same goes for lesbians. "Do you guys just use dildos on each other all the time?" People can't comprehend that the most sensitive sex organ on a woman is essentially on the exterior of her body (excluding clitoral hoods and such). No, only men can have exterior genitalia. And it must always be put in something.

To answer your question, yes, they were being homophobic and, more importantly, incredibly sexist.

toddaa

(2,518 posts)
34. "one of the exciting, gay TV people"
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 12:54 PM
Mar 2013

This made me snicker.

Interesting read, because I've been in a somewhat reverse situation where it was the "office gay" who wouldn't shut up with the sex jokes. At first, I thought it was a defense mechanism, but it turned out he was just a loudmouth, offensive jerk. And a Log Cabin Republican. But I repeat myself.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
37. "it was the "office gay" who wouldn't shut up with the sex jokes." - Arg! It just makes me cringe!
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:21 PM
Mar 2013

I'm not supposed to let it bother me, seemingly, according to some gay activists. Really it just gets tedious really quickly.

I suppose at least some of my reaction comes from the fact that I don't have a quiver of clever put-downs myself, but I do sometimes think "come on, pal, you don't have to be funny *all* the time...maybe sometimes you could say what you think...". Never met one in a workplace situation...

toddaa

(2,518 posts)
38. It was a racist joke that got him escorted out of the building
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:39 PM
Mar 2013

For his own protection, mind you. I don't remember the specifics, but let's just say the whole Israeli-Palestinian conflict was brought really close to home.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
39. Good Lord...
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:45 PM
Mar 2013

I feel like I have to apologise on behalf of homosexuality...

Mind you, I guess it shows we can be jerks like everyone else which I think is a "good" thing... somehow...

toddaa

(2,518 posts)
41. Don't feel any obligation
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:05 PM
Mar 2013

His orientation does not factor into it. I've got plenty of other close friends and family in the LGBT community who more than make up for this one jerk weed.

Blaukraut

(5,693 posts)
35. Straight people's preoccupation with gay people's sex lives is mystifying
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 01:45 PM
Mar 2013

My (gay) sister-in-law always jokes about that, saying that she wishes she had as much sex with her wife as everyone always thinks gays are supposedly having.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
40. I'm not usually that bothered by it.
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:53 PM
Mar 2013

To some degree you would sort of expect it - people who don't know anything about something who meet someone who does are usually interested to hear about what they have to say. It's just that... you know... it's my sex life.

I had to get used to telling everybody all sorts of things about myself that would ordinarily be private because coming out sort of encourages straight people to try and "honour" your honesty by trying to be as honest with you as you have been with them, and before long it all gets very open and sharing... and sometimes a leeeetle bit intrusive. It's not really very helpful to expect anything different because, well, they might actually learn something and anyway, if you present yourself to people as you genuinely are they are typically very accepting. If you tell them what they're supposed to think of you, that's very different.

I think this is one of the reasons so many gay people end up spending their entire lives being super-comedic about sex. Sex is basically just funny no matter who's doing it and people are fascinated with gay sex so gay people end up constantly having funny conversations about sex and... well sometimes I think they get kind of stuck... there's an aspect of both sides "leading each other on" so to speak...

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
43. They certainly do...
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:34 PM
Mar 2013

I think it's a case of the *level* of interest that might be different. I actually don't know, TBH. I only have my own experiences to offer.

hedgehog

(36,286 posts)
36. I think this was an example of a special toxic office culture more than a homophobic one;
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 02:04 PM
Mar 2013

if you'd been the only black/Latino/asian/whatever in the office, you'd have been assigned that role. It's not just a female thing, either. The most toxic workplace I ever encountered was overwhelmingly male. Some people never leave junior high behind!


BTW - it's a good thing to sit down and think through (or write down!) what happened. Otherwise the poison stays with you and turns up to hurt you when you least expect it!

cecilfirefox

(784 posts)
45. As a gay man let me first say that I can relate to this-
Sun Mar 17, 2013, 03:59 PM
Mar 2013

Being the 'official gay', where everything and its mother relates to your sexuality, and the constant string of dick and ass jokes. Fortunately, I think most of my friends are beyond that, but I have been in several situations like yours. Is it homophobia? I don't think that's an entirely accurate use of that word, there's a disgust, a fear, a discomfort associated with that, I believe, and I don't think that exactly applies. It's insensitivity, certainly, but part of it is culture, some of it a lack of social contact.

Needless to say, straight folk with gay friends should totally read this post. You pretty much nail it, man.

Latest Discussions»General Discussion»"Benevolent homophobia". ...