On the attacks on the Catholic Church

[nadinbrzezinski]

Last edited Sun Mar 17, 2013, 09:51 PM - Edit history (3)

You know what folks...you want to be critical of the very serious issues the Church has, pedofilia comes to mind...by all means. I will join you.

But you cross a huge red line when you personally attack individual members of the church.

This might come as a huge news to you, but unless you have converted, like being born white, Chinese or whatever, it is not your choice.

Many of the same members you are personally attacking are the ones who will help to change things. In an organization of what two billion...you cannot expect change to come on fast...nor can you expect Catholics from advanced economies to be able to impose a whole slew of values (consistent with first world concerns) on the developing world.

It is not just unfair to make these demands, it s bigoted, and the creation of the other.

The attacks we have seen are part of the anti catholic underbelly of the US, going back to the Reformation. I rarely use this word, they are bigoted. They are ugly.

So please, personal attacks such as giving tithe makes you a monster are out of place, and all but progressive. They also should be alerted on, but I don't expect the jury system to do this correctly any longer. And yes, some things are just wrong, regardless of the Jury.

To the Catholics on the board, I am sorry and apologize for the dickidness of some and for not sticking my neck out earlier. I honestly knew they were bad, but missed the true Dickish posts. For that I am sorry. I absolutely hate this level of bigotry.


Edit, for those having trouble doing research

Reply #12
In the discussion thread: Legitimate criticism of vs. bigotry against religion [View all]
Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #3)Sat Mar 16, 2013, 09:01 PM
Zoeisright (7,464 posts)
12. If you give money to the church, you are supporting pedophiles.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2520819

Oh and if anybody is interested in Te subject, for real, apart of wiki try this.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Anti-Catholicism-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0195176049

And now on this thread.

Reply #187
In the discussion thread: On the attacks on the Catholic Church [View all]
Response to nadinbrzezinski (Original post)Sun Mar 17, 2013, 06:49 PM
truebrit71 (16,648 posts)
187. What a steaming pile of bullshit...FUCK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

...if you put money in the collection plate every Sunday you are funding their anti-gay, anti-woman agenda...No other way to look at it...






www.pulltheotheronemate.blogspot.com

I generally don't do this but my...this is textbook.

So continue to attack fellow DU'ers.

[shenmue]

1. Thank you.

I appreciate that. I won't take away someone's ability to make reasonable points in debate. But if they cross the line and get stereotypical and cruel, that does nothing for anyone. So I'm glad some people want a little more peace. Thanks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. You welcome

[GP6971]

3. I thank you also. n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. You welcome

[Brickbat]

5. Being a member or adherent of a religion is not a choice?

Totally, totally disagree.

[BellaLuna]

66. No kidding

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that one.

[JVS]

96. Evidently it's only a choice if one is an adherent of a smaller religious group.

[zappaman]

100. Soooo much wrong with this OP

Who knew whether or not to belong to a religious group was NOT a choice?

[Brickbat]

120. I find the justifications from the OP throughout this thread bizarre.

[jsr]

6. Yep. This shit makes DU look stupid.

[Richardo]

16. +1

[Richardo]

7. "dickidness" - the perfect word

Excellent post, nadin. Thanks for standing up.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. You welcome

[Cleita]

9. Raised a Catholic, I had forgotten all the prejudice against me and my

fellow Catholics when I was growing up until now. It's why my parents put me in parochial school, not because they were fervent Catholics, but so I wouldn't be bullied about it. There is such an ugly underbelly of bigotry in this country. It's why we have people like Sarah Palin and Rush Limbaugh come to prominence because of it. They appeal to the underbelly of prejudice in people with code words and messages. Otherwise, if people were in their right minds, they would see them for the scum that they are.

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Yup that is part of it

There used to be signs about we don't serve Catholics in this establishment.

A lot of it is mythology, and quite a bit goes to the reformation.

[life long demo]

10. I'm reading backwards on the posts so I

don't know exactly what happened yet, so in advance thank you for an old Catholic who still misses Pope John 23rd from the 60's. But that's just me.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. In all seriousness the church needs a Vatican III.

and welcome to DU

[Cleita]

13. Me too. n/t

[progressoid]

14. Wait. Being Catholic isn't a choice?

I had no idea.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Like being born into any religion

Is that such a difficult thing to see? Or tell me do you generally speaking chose the faith of your parents?

Some people convert across faiths, some people (like me) lose our religion. But I had no choice in being born into a Jewish household.

[progressoid]

74. When I became an adult I chose to no longer follow the faith of my parents.

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. And that is a choice increasingly seen in the US

But, people are born into a faith...that was the point. Some remain, others leave. Calling people child molesters is wrong. That is the impossible point to make.

[pnwmom]

290. Many Protestants don't feel a particular attachment to their denomination

and easily change churches when they move into a town with different options.

It's not the same with Catholics.

[Phillip McCleod]

93. it most certainly IS a choice and you belittle the civil rights struggle

by equating acts of choice made by adults to innate characteristics of individuals, such as race, gender, sexual orientation, disability.. i'm sure you understand.

in fact of the religious demographics, nonbelievers are the only group in the u.s. that have seen any increase, all at the expense of religious groups. in other words, people are quitting churches and not going back. this by itself proves the fallacy of your proposition that religion is not a choice.

look in the mirror before you start throwing the b-word around. catholicism is not a protected class.

[nadinbrzezinski]

97. So we do not have a history of religious bigotry in the US?

Really?

Here is just one recent read on it.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Anti-Catholicism-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0195176049

[Phillip McCleod]

102. yes we have such a history and not just in the u.s.

that's why religious freedom has an exception carved out.. to avoid religious war. *not* because religion is innate, but because we keep killing each other over it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

104. And attacks on DU'ers cause they happen to be catholic

When they are called child molesters, is a bigoted statement.

[Phillip McCleod]

105. ln plz

[zappaman]

109. Bullshit

Please provide a link to your allegations that DUers are being called child molesters cuz they happen to be Catholic.
You can't because you made it up.

[Phillip McCleod]

108. and p.s..

http://www.examiner.com/article/soldier-shot-and-killed-for-being-an-atheist

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. Yes and. We are discussing one type of bigotry

Not denying there are other forms.

Nice derailing though.

[Phillip McCleod]

112. my point is that one link does not an argument make

make the argument. where's the evidence that du'ers as i guess we're all called are calling catholics 'child molesters' in such numbers as to warrant hundreds of comments on this thread?

[zappaman]

126. This does not support your assertion.

At all.

[Phillip McCleod]

127. hm. not sure if that was the link you meant to post.

was it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

129. Same thread where I posted the links.

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 12:15 AM - Edit history (1)

But no problem, will copy and sate for you.

Asking Drunken Irismnan not to leave.

Posted one as a mistake, which is not.
This is Drunken Irishman's post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2521242

Here is another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2521319



There are more

[Summer Hathaway]

223. After specifically pointing out to you

that my post which you linked to clearly says the exact opposite of what you are attributing to it as having said, you go on to post the same link TWICE MORE as an example of people calling Catholics 'pedophile enablers', etc.

For someone who never stops bragging about her education, her lofty intelligence, and her vast world experience in at least a dozen different 'careers', I find it mind-boggling that you could read the post you persist in linking to - in which I staunchly defend the Catholic faith and those who practice it - and read into that any remote notion that I called Catholics 'pedophiles', 'pedophile enablers', or stated that contributing money to the Church makes a Catholic complicit in the crimes the clergy have committed.

Your latest 'career', to hear you tell it, is that of a news reporter/journalist. Has anyone ever told you that checking your quotes for accuracy is part of journalism? Has anyone ever pointed out to you that attributing statements to someone who never made those statements is not only poor journalism, but unethical in the extreme?

Apparently not. Even if I am one of the four thousand people you have on your famous 'ignore list' and you are not seeing my replies to you, others in this thread have pointed out to you that my post, which you keep linking to, DOES NOT SAY what you insist it says.

And yet you persist. Rather than admit you are wrong, you simply continue.

Well, you may not be seeing this post - but others here will. And they can draw their own conclusions about your 'interpretation' of the post you have linked to, and what kind of person would persist in attributing truly disgusting statements to someone who never made them.

[zappaman]

229. +100

[Brickbat]

106. You're not born into a religion. You're taught it.

[Cleita]

21. If you are baptized when you are a week old, no it isn't. n/t

[RedCappedBandit]

31. But clearly a choice to continue being a member of whatever faith..

I was born into a Catholic family. Now I'm not a Catholic. Didn't even have to do anything to make the switch.

[Cleita]

32. As long as you live in a Catholic family and go to Catholic school and

most kids have to do that until they are eighteen, it's just not possible to make a choice until then. I know I did the same as you. Once I went to work and didn't have to be around nuns, priests and parents anymore, I defected as well. The only time I go to church is for a baptism, wedding or funeral, lately in my old age, a lot of funerals.

[lbrtbell]

101. That's just ridiculous.

I was born into a Catholic family, and went to Catholic schools by choice--not because of religion, but because those schools had higher educational standards than the public schools in my particular area.

But nothing--no parents, nuns, priests, or peers--could prevent me from being smart enough to see the BS inherent in that religion. Nor could they prevent any of us kids from realizing that one of the priests was a pedo, and we never let ourselves be alone with him.

You're not "born" Catholic, Hindu, or whatever. You're born INTO a family of faith. But to suggest that you're "born" Catholic is like being "born" white or Chinese (Chinese isn't even a race!) is ludicrous.

You want to face bigotry based on religion? Try being Wiccan or pagan. Now that's bigotry. Pointing out pedo priests and condemning the Vatican for its anti-gay and anti-woman "values" isn't bigotry.

Anyone who is still a practicing Catholic is supporting all of that. That's why I, and my entire family, rejected the Catholic faith. Not one more dime of our money will ever support the Vatican and its cover-ups.

[Cleita]

115. I never give them money. I think you are being very rude though.

I actually hang around with a group of Wiccans and pagans here on DU and I have personally witnessed the scorn they get here on DU so I'm not surprised at the scorn you are heaping on DU Catholics. I cannot condemn people for their beliefs. I'm certain Catholics will clean their house now that the soiled linen has been aired. Most people were not aware of what was going on.

[Phillip McCleod]

94. you are what is called a 'counter-example'.

by yourself you have utterly demolished the entire proposition that religion is an innate characteristic of the individual. QED

[treestar]

255. Not so easy to leave for everyone

Family pressure is there. The demand that every liberal Catholic quit is a whole lot to ask IMO

[Bradical79]

37. nonsense.

[BainsBane]

150. That's what the English thought

During centuries of occupation of Ireland in which they tried to force the Irish to convert. It's also what the Klan thought when they burned crosses on the lawns of Catholics like my grandmother.

[progressoid]

154. Thankfully, that is NOT what modern liberals think.

[BainsBane]

156. Really?

Don't you?

[progressoid]

164. Don't I what?

Think that adults aren't free to choose their religious preference?

Or that we should force the Irish to convert?

Or burn crosses on your grandmother's lawn?

No.
No.
No.

[BainsBane]

170. You insist religion is a choice

and therefore are seeking to justify bigotry against those who don't choose to pray or not pray like you think is appropriate.

[progressoid]

174. Sure. Religion is a choice.

But I don't get where this is coming from "seeking to justify bigotry against those who don't choose to pray or not pray like you think is appropriate."

[BainsBane]

188. This OP is an appeal not to be a jerk toward fellow DUers who are

Catholic. You respond, so religion isn't a choice? That is the justification here of many who seek to dump all over Catholics. So why raise the issue if it isn't in an effort to defend bigotry? The issue is really simple. Either you treat people like equal human beings or you don't. The OP is asking people to knock if off because long-time, valued members of this community are leaving over the incessant hatred directed at them over their religion. I find it particularly ironic that a response to bigotry by the Catholic hierarchy toward homosexuality is bigotry toward Democrats here because some have decided those members must be the same as the Pope and the Council of Bishops since they share a common religion.

I get people are poorly educated these days and don't know anything about history. They assume our modern capitalist society where people are severed from past, family, and community is a natural state and therefore don't understand the link between ethnicity and religion. We live in a world that values the accumulation of wealth above all else, and you have no concept that your evocation of the idea of religion as a choice is a product of the capitalist worldview. I can't go around educating people, especially when they don't want to learn. But the appeal here is for DUers to stop acting like jerks toward Catholics just because you don't like what you see in the news. Skinner has made the point about differences between the church hierarchy and liberal Catholics quite well in ATA.

[progressoid]

192. Nope.

I only raised an issue about religion not being a choice. Nothing else.

[BainsBane]

194. Why?

[progressoid]

198. It seemed like a poor way to make a point.

[BainsBane]

200. As you admit to making no point

Whatsoever.

[Lars39]

17. Then we shouldn't rant about the children born into the Westboro church of hate,

who stay as adults. They have no choice but to remain. Good grief.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. You are seriously comparing an organization of billions

With a fringe group with less than fifty? Serious? You kid me right?

Mind you, the Westboro church agrees with you on this...the Catholic church is a cult. This is actually a non fringe view even among far more main stream Protestant churches.

[Lars39]

19. You posit that anyone born into a religion has no choice.

Sorry, that's bunk. I've left two religious groups in my lifetime. *Everyone* has a choice, even if they choose not to take it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. I said you have no choice as to where you are born

UNLESS YOU CONVERTED

Reading comp much? Try reading the OP again...news here for you, actually the people who convert are a minority.

Regardless you are attacking people, personally...that's A RED LINE.

[Lars39]

23. I have not attacked anyone personally or as a group.

For the record, I believe that the Catholic Church will only change when there is overwhelming pressure wielded against it from within the church and from the outside.

[nadinbrzezinski]

24. The church will probably break

It has to do with first world and developing world needs.

Suffice it to say, apologies.

[Lars39]

26. No harm done.

Confusing times. Seems the whole world is in flux, worse than usual.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Yup

And we might loose good posters over this. Not that I can blame them.

[Lars39]

29. Hopefully not.

[magical thyme]

63. just a nit, but there are 1.2B Catholics, not 2 billion or billions. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Nit well taken

[JVS]

116. Technically, WBC has a better claim on saying one has no choice.

Catholic teaching presents apostasy and excommunication as ways in which church members come and go. Priests regularly complain about how many people leave the church or seldom attend.

WBC being strictly Calvinist (although they likely pervert Calvinist though) would argue that those who are God's elect will naturally gravitate to them and those who want to leave are and were always faithless.

[Bluenorthwest]

246. Ah. So you are saying that the difference between the Pope and Fred Phelps is that the Pope

has more followers and thus his right and wrong is different from the right and wrong applied to Phelps? It is all about the numbers?
That seems to make the argument that the rank and file mitigate the hierarchy. If they have enough endorsing followers, then it is not so bad for them to say that which is very bad if said by a cleric with a smaller congregation?
Your argument seems to suggest that it is in fact the rank and file that allow for the hate speech. How many followers would Phelps need to make his message as easy to dismiss as the Pope's duplicate message? If it is about numbers, what are those numbers? How many nodding along makes it ok to practice hate speech and attacks on minority groups?
The Baptist Church is one of the largest in the US. There are not just 50 Baptists. Many Baptists say they do not agree with Phelps, but then again, many Catholics say they don't agree with Francis and Co.
What's the difference between the two? Just more costumes and extras, better props and sets?

[nadinbrzezinski]

253. More chips, yay!!!!

[Whisp]

22. Chances are big that there are abuse survivors here on DU

and I'm wondering how THEY are feeling about now. some may be very, very angry and may be saying some things that are uncomfortable but I bet most are just silent.

Just silent because apparently words thrown around on the internet are more harmful than what they went though, and will go through forever.

Sorry, I just don't get this.

Calling a Catholic out personally to be responsible for what these creatures do to children, and all the other sins they own, is not the right thing to do, that's for sure. But it should be understood just how many people are so angry and so affected, and to tell them to shut up and be polite isn't the answer either.

[Phillip McCleod]

98. us atheists are used to it.

water off a duck's back. when does *any* given religious group *not* play victim?

[me b zola]

160. Much like the institution of adoption

...

[Mosaic]

25. When liberals and democrats become bigoted

The baby Jesus cries a little bit.

[Cleita]

27. And baby Jesus was a circumcised little Jewish kid, I might remind you.

[trotsky]

30. Some individual Catholics are great.

Their church still sucks eggs and actively works AGAINST many goals we support on DU, including but not limited to equality, reproductive choice, and gay marriage. I worry that far too many people are unable to distinguish criticism of the RCC from "bigoted" "personal attacks," thus silencing critics and allowing the RCC to continue opposing Democratic goals.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. When you attack the church, that is one thing

When people are told that by giving tithe they are child molestors....this is a huge red line.

As in a wall that should not be crossed.

Also...the American and European Laity are far more liberal, by leaps and bounds, than the laity in the developing world...there are individual exceptions of course. So to be brutally honest...the Pope decides (that alone would be revolutionary) to have a finding that contraception is a-ok...you might sing hosannas....not so much in many southern churches, as in economic south.

This is something that a lot of folks are having a hell of a time comprehending. I hope a Jesuit will be able to move things ahead, but I expect it to be glacial still.

Here is an example, lent and not eating meat on Friday, it's now allowed. In the US it's not been a big deal. In Mexico, never mind John Paul wrote the Encyclical, it is still a big deal, as in go ask the bishop big deal. Want to talk contraception? Lord, the Cardinals will be asked!!!

[Lordquinton]

90. Not calling them child molestors

but saying they support child molesters, there is also a huge difference.

To boot, the Catholic Church is a bigoted organization, so if you your self (not personally, just the royal you) are not bigoted, then why would you cling so fervently to an organization that is? It's a simple question that gets shot down by claims that it is a bigoted question.

[nadinbrzezinski]

95. Given that as a JEW I am having a problem

With the BIGOTRY shown to fellow DU'ers who happen to be Catholic...some of whom will leave this site after...in one case ten years...

I am calling people on person to person bigotry, and I knew I was sticking my neck out. Partly people do not differentiate between the personal attack, and clear bigotry, and the hierarchy.

[Lordquinton]

140. I don't differentiate between the hierarchy and the orginization

if you call yourself Catholic, then you need to own the good and the bad, you are standing up to be counted in that 1.2 billion, and you should know that as a whole it doesn't matter if one person is good, the whole organization is corrupt, and has bigotry in it's core beliefs. This isn't some flash in the pan couple of priests did it and the new guy should denounce it. This is institutionalized abuse, the last Pope, the last leader of the organization was the guy in charge of covering it up. The last pope's former job was protecting child molesters. That didn't just come out either, it was known before he became Pope.

He was also the head of the nicer named inquisition. Papal corruption isn't some new thing either, look through church history and you will find that the nice "Wasn't always this way" is the aberration, not the ultra conservative angle.

I too am calling people on bigotry, but it happens to be from the angle that they call themselves a member of a bigoted organization. Don't like it? Quit. That simple, until then you own everything that comes with it, Not saying you do any of that personally, just that you support it by aligning yourself with it. And not saying you personally, speaking of Catholics in general.

One final thing, where are you when Atheists get bashed?

[nadinbrzezinski]

225. Chuckle, given what I wrote my masters thesis on

I guess it be best if American, nay first word liberal Catholics, both in the laity and the hierarchy left in droves.

It would be all kinds of chuckles. Should they also close any and all social services, like a few in the most radical right fanatics would love to do? Hey, no more Observattorio Romano!!!! And I ain't talking of the paper!!!!

Or can we at least acknowledge that tension? Next I will be told to read more Church history. By the way, wrong tree, I am Jewish. My problem is with the obvious bigotry.

[Lordquinton]

284. obvious bigotry

Yet you ignore where the bigotry originated from. And nice argument from authority there too.

So, don't criticize the church because it's too big? Too difficult? They do good work so ignore the bad? There are good people in the church? I see tons of people jump to the church's defense, but few of them really condemn the bad stuff, just a bunch of people sitting around talking about how there are good Catholics, and how any criticizer is also demanding them to stop the good works. Of course if you don't fit the mold the RCC sets out, you don't get that resource (except for some charity that is a reach out that will inevitably be trotted out to show there are some that aren't like it).

Look, if you call yourself Catholic, then it is perfectly reasonable that people question you on certain main issues, like pedophilia, homophobia, sexism, and so on. I saw someone write that they do just that about atheists, that they question their stances on all kinds of things because some other atheist said something that they interpreted in a very wrong and narrow manner, so obviously all these people think the same way and have to prove they don't, or they just assume they are assholes, but no one ever jumps to Atheists defense like they do to the RCC.

[nadinbrzezinski]

285. Once again

I will try this very, very , very slow. Will even use short words.

Be critical of the hierarchy, none will stop you. In fact, many of us will join you.

Don't attack DU'ers because they happen to be Catholic. It is bigoted, and incidentally against the term of service.

Not that I expect this to sink in. But hey, using broad brushes is popular.

Now let me repeat this for you. I am JEWISH, not catholic. I just have a very low tolerance for bigotry...it's ugly, and yes....dangerous.

Should I use even smaller words?

[Lordquinton]

288. Maybe you should get thicker glasses

I haven't attacked any DUer, nor have I said or thought you were Catholic, I stated very clearly that if someone stands with an organization, then they should expect to be questioned on why. No they shouldn't be attacked personally, but they shouldn't expect to be exempt from questions of their allegiance. The RCC is a pretty hateful group that has mellowed out in some aspects, but still maintains a strict, hardline on a lot of issues, and has a lot to answer for.

I also ask if this defense of yours applies only to the Catholics, or any faith, or if you will go to bat for the atheists, who get attacked all the time, but never anyone saying "Hey, don't judge them because they just don't believe there is a god." Atheists don't even claim to be part of a bigoted organization, they don't belong to any organization, they just don't believe in god, yet they are taken to task the second that fact comes to light, do the same thing to (insert faith here) and you get jumped on by defenders who want you to remember that the clergy is separate from the believers.

If you don't want to be be perceived as bigoted, then don't stand with bigots. There is more than just one thing at issue here, like the whole hell issue, the treatment of women, homosexuals, the poor, contraception, list goes on and on.

But you can just ignore all that and speak louder, if you want.

[nadinbrzezinski]

289. Now a personal attack

I don't alert...I just put people on ignore.

Have a good long fracking life...and you sir or ma'am are a bigot.

[Lordquinton]

296. No, I am not,

My response was in turn to yours, you said "Maybe I should use bigger type" so I said "Maybe you should get thicker glasses" responding in kind, which is now turned into a personal attack.

You have answered nothing in my posts, and then claim that I'm attacking you when I say the exact same thing you said to me.

I don't ignore or report, I just keep asking hard questions.

[Phillip McCleod]

111. you still haven't provided a link

unless you're posting it now.. that catholics are being called 'child molesters' en masse on this site, let alone once.

[zappaman]

118. Cuz it never happened.

Careful....questioning the OP will get you put on the "Iggy list"!!!

[Phillip McCleod]

122. iggy pop? my dad knew him as a kid.

replaced him in a band one time.. i think iggy left for better opps.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Read here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2525479

[zappaman]

128. Read there for what?

Proof that your allegation that DUers are calling other DUers "child molesters" simply for "being Catholic" is bullshit?
Cuz it is.

[Phillip McCleod]

130. sorry but i find nothing objectionable in any of those links

you are officially on your own, AFAIC..

[nadinbrzezinski]

138. You are officially on the b list.

Have a good day.

[Phillip McCleod]

141. whew!

just made it.

[zappaman]

146. Congrats!

We now number well over 200 and hope you can make it to the First Friday Social in a couple of weeks!

[Phillip McCleod]

151. is it going to be formal attire or casual?

b/c i hate shopping for clothes.

[trotsky]

112. Could you link to the post where people were told, specifically,

that giving money to the RCC meant that they themselves were child molesters?

[nadinbrzezinski]

119. Let me look for it. It was posted by another poster

Asking Drunken Irismnan not to leave.

Posted one as a mistake, which is not.
This is Drunken Irishman's post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2521242

Here is another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2521319

One more

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2521432

I could go on, and that is just his thread.

There are more

[zappaman]

123. More bullshit

Not one of those links backs up your claim that some DUers are calling other DUers child molesters.
Stop making shit up please.

[trotsky]

152. I don't see where all Catholics were called child molesters in those posts.

You made a very specific claim. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect very specific evidence.

[zappaman]

155. You are correct.

But that won't stop the OP from claiming it!

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. Read the OP.

More specific than what is on the OP now you won't find.

[treestar]

254. There are such posts

They may not be easy to find. But that sentiment has long been posted whenever the subject comes up.

[trotsky]

257. OK, point to them.

Specifically, the ones that say all Catholics are evil pedophiles. You're making a claim, you need to support it.

[treestar]

258. Any DUer of any term in good faith

would recognize it as a commonly posted sentiment on DU. You're trying to make people jump through hoops in order to challenge that claim. But it is a claim made. In fact there is no need to call out the specific posters who say it.

[trotsky]

259. When someone makes a claim, I believe they need to support it.

When they make specific claims, it's even more imperative to present specific evidence.

When you respond by casting aspersions on those who ask for this evidence ("any DUer ... in good faith", clearly implying that I am not), it makes me think you don't have any evidence but instead are just attacking and hoping to silence people.

Which makes you no better than the people you think you're attacking.

[treestar]

260. Everybody knows that sentiment is often expressed on DU

You can argue against that sentiment or for it. It is pointless to claim the argument has never been made.

In fact why call out specific people with their posts?

[trotsky]

261. "expressing a sentiment" requires personal interpretation.

What I see happening here is that some people see words that are factually true, like "the Catholic church has a documented history of protecting and enabling pedophiles" and think that it says "all Catholics support pedophilia."

Accuracy and precision in language are the key to communicating meaning - do you agree?

[treestar]

264. Are you really claiming that no one has ever posted to the effect that

day to day Catholics are supporting the church and therefore the misdeeds of every clergy who has ever done anything wrong?

I bet you can find some in this thread here.

The Catholic Church is not the only organization that tried to protect pedophiles. May as well condemn every church, school or other large organization if you're being fair.

[trotsky]

265. What I'm saying is that I have seen no one claim that all Catholics are pedophiles.

But what I have seen is people claim that someone else DID say that.

I believe someone who says that needs to support it with evidence. So go ahead.

[Summer Hathaway]

159. I am truly interested

in your explanation as to why you have posted a link to one of my replies - a reply which states the exact opposite of what you are attributing to it.

You were asked: "Could you link to the post where people were told, specifically,
that giving money to the RCC meant that they themselves were child molesters?"

In response, you pointed out my post as an example of same - a post which said no such thing, not even CLOSE to any such thing.

My reply was pointing out that the Catholic faith and the organization known as 'the Catholic Church' are - for many, many Catholics - two completely different things.

I fail to see how you could have remotely misinterpreted what I said to mean that I was telling people that if they gave money to the RCC, they were themselves child molesters.

This is REALLY beyond the pale, Nadin - and you know it.

[zappaman]

177. You think you will get an answer?

[Summer Hathaway]

180. Not likely.

I've had encounters with Nadin before, and when she is called on something she's posted that is completely wrong, she simply refuses to acknowledge it - or, in the alternative, claims she is being 'bullied'.

[zappaman]

182. Don't forget the self delete!

The other tried and true response.

[Summer Hathaway]

235. Well, you called it!

She went with the self-delete!

[zappaman]

263. I'm gobsmacked!

But suffice it say, not surprised.
As a trained historian, I saw this coming.

[Summer Hathaway]

270. ...

"As a trained historian, I saw this coming."

[behrstar]

33. Seriously???

WHAAAAAA. Everyone bashes us poor catholics!
Try being gay for a day (with the relentless bashing from the pedophile protecting catholic church) and then talk to me.
Cry me a river!

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. Given I am a Jew you might want to understand, or not,

That hate of the other is wrong...regardless.

[behrstar]

39. I am Jewish too

but that has nothing to do with my lack of sympathy for members of religions who cry "Oppression" while their leaders are engaging in...repression.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. I am talking of hate of members of the church

Not leadership, and we have a few in the Rabbinate that are just as Middle Ages types.

[Warren Stupidity]

212. When people say "fuck the Catholic Church" they are referring to the institution.

If somebody instead says "fuck Catholics", they are referring to the members of that church. You should be very clear on the distinction, as the institution is a fucked up homophobic misogynist pedophile protecting institution. Catholics, on the other hand, are a collection of individuals, many of them fine progressive people.

[NYC Liberal]

36. It absolutely IS a choice.

It was a choice for me. I used to be a member of the Catholic Church and I left. In part it was because I stopped believing in things like gods, but it was also because I was disgusted with the "values" of the church.

Are we not supposed to criticize people who choose to remain members of the GOP because "in an organization of tens of millions you cannot expect change to come on fast"? Bullshit.

If you choose to remain a member of a sexist, homophobic, bigoted organization then you should expect to be criticized for it.

I'm not advocating over the top attacks, even personal attacks. But criticism for belonging to a bigoted organization -- particularly on a progressive website -- is not out of bounds.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. The attacks have been personal

As in you give tithe you are a child molestors

Attack the organization, lord knows they deserve it...but those same members of DU getting attacked are the ones who will help to change the larger organization.

And for the record, change will not be fast enough ever, for the American laity. Americans are far from the majority of the laity world wide.

What I think is in the cards is the end of priest infability and how that has affected child abuse.

The church has also been playing with married priests, so all denials to the contrary from even some current priests (on tweety the other day) it's coming.

Women expanding roles...or contraception, or a few other liberal things...don't see it, not yet. In some ways, even though they should not, chiefly contraception...you are coming head to head with very traditional societies.

[behrstar]

42. So...

Are the edicts of the church based on theology or populism???

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. They are based on dogma

At times economics. (Lent and marriage of priests, both were economic decisions)

FYI, the politics of the church are so Byzantine that they make some of my local secretive boards look open.

[behrstar]

46. So you believe

that the church is not what it claims to be?

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. It is what it is.

Both a religion and a massive organization with interesting politics with the struggle between more liberal and conservative factions happening in the background.

[Bradical79]

53. Isnt that a double standard by catholics?

The Catholic church as a organization is anti homosexual, protected child molestors, is anti abortion, and sexist. Its a bigoted organization. What makes people who give money to it exempt from criticism? The same doesn't seem to hold true for the NRA members or evangelicals for example.

[nadinbrzezinski]

59. Attacking evangelicals is also off

The NRA is a political organization I think you can tell the difference.

Telling somebody that they are child molestors since they give tithe is a grievous personal attack...I hope you can understand why.

[Apophis]

49. +1

[Katashi_itto]

60. Wow. I am so glad you judge others with such razor sharp clarity.

"If you choose to remain a member of a sexist, homophobic, bigoted organization then you should expect to be criticized for it.

I'm not advocating over the top attacks, even personal attacks. But criticism for belonging to a bigoted organization -- particularly on a progressive website -- is not out of bounds."


"Never be certain of anything, it's a sign of weakness"
-Dr Who

[NYC Liberal]

79. Shall we not criticize someone who chooses to be a member

of the Tea Party? That they choose to be a member alone speaks volumes, does it not?

Are you consistent or not? Many of the official positions of the Catholic Church are in total alignment with those of the Tea Party.

[Katashi_itto]

117. Your not consistent. Mixing Religious and political affiliations.

You simply are casting about to disparage Catholics who chose to remain with the church. Again, you are truly gifted with such keen insight as to why they remain and their motives.

[NYC Liberal]

125. I am consistent. Joining a political party is a choice,

as is joining a religious organization. Both are a choice. One must make an active, conscious decision to remain part of either.

Do you refuse to disparage Republicans who remain with the GOP? After all, you don't know what their motivations are.

Motivations are irrelevant. Just as membership in the Tea Party is, in and of itself, a fair point of criticism, so is membership in any other organization that supports bigotry as its official policy.

[Katashi_itto]

132. Whatever you say. You obviously have much deeper insights than the rest of us. A searing intellect

be reckoned with. I commend you.

[NYC Liberal]

135. It takes no great insight to realize

if you choose to belong to a bigoted organization, you open yourself to criticism -- especially on a progressive/liberal website.

If the Catholic Church were a political party, or a PAC, espousing the exact same bigoted views -- there would be no question about the implications of choosing to be a member.

[Katashi_itto]

137. Truly profound statements...I glad you came up with a rationale.

To make attacks on fellow Duers

[NYC Liberal]

139. Thanks but they are not profound at all.

They are basic, obvious truths.

[Katashi_itto]

142. Snicker...if you say so... :)

[NYC Liberal]

236. Yep. I already did say so.

Thanks for agreeing with me!

[Katashi_itto]

243. A searing intellect of a searing 60 watt light bulb, along with an ego the size of Mt Rushmore.

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 01:31 PM - Edit history (1)

It's called sarcasm, me hearty

[D23MIURG23]

228. And you have no argument at all. Try harder. n/t

[treestar]

256. Practically everyone

Must belong to some bigoted organization. The Catholic Church is not the only one.

Your parents might have sent you to a public school at a time when those were bigoted.

[D23MIURG23]

227. +1

[Katashi_itto]

41. Well spoken!

[treestar]

43. It would be like attacking people who attend Penn State

Everyone who pays tuition to Penn State, yadda yadda.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Exactly

[Bradical79]

57. not really.

Its morenlike attacking NRA members, or Republican donors.

[Apophis]

47. Except being a Catholic IS a choice.

I was a Catholic as a child but I choose not to be one anymore.

We don't put up bigotry from the Boy Scouts or any other organization so why is it okay if Catholics allow it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

89. Because the laity has been trying to so something about it

And the zero tolerance for pedophilia in the US has come straight from the laity.

My lord, I am not even Catholic and I know this.

[Apophis]

184. Giving money to the churches is showing the church leaders

you support them directly or indirectly.

My mind will not be changed on this issue.

[Bluenorthwest]

48. The Church says my family is the work of Satan. I am going to criticize the fuck out of such

hate speech. That's the new Pope.
What shocks me is that folks say 'it is only the hierarchy that is bigoted' but then they also demand, as you do OP, no criticism of the Church itself.
Why, I ask you, are there not similar reactions toward the Church or the Pope when attacks are launched on LGBT people? When some Pope or Cardinal says those things, where are the folks who are so upset today? Why don't they speak out against that hate speech? If speeches calling gay people satanic are not bigoted attacks, I don't know what is. Why are there not OP's critical of those hugely bigoted and globally publicized attacks pronounced in the name of God and of believers?

The concern only for the wounded believers, when the believers are not concerned for the wounds issued in their name to others, seems very lopsided and frankly not very Christian.
Jesus H Christ said to be slow to take offense, very swift to forgive, when attacked offer yourself for another attack. He said those who follow him WILL be mocked and persecuted and he instructed them to rejoice and be glad when that happens, he did not say 'carefully demand respect and clarify that you are not like those other followers of me'. He said rejoice. He gave no warrant to get in a snit for his name's sake, nor to weep over being made fun of, he said be exceedingly glad.

How can a Christian place their own offense at criticism of very bad things in their Church over the harm done to others in their name? Why do they not instantly seek to make amends, to reach out, to assure others that while their pal in the robes curses us, they do not?
Would it break their backs to say 'sorry' to those of us their organization uses as rhetorical fodder and attacks non stop in the most insulting and vicious terms, delivered from the cover of pulpit and parish? Clearly they are able to stand up when they feel insulted. Have they no empathy for those insulted by their own Francis, or Benedict?
They fact that that Church says I should have no rights and takes political action to see that such injustices continue means that Church is deserving harsh political attack, and deserves no shred of false respect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. Be as critical of the church as you want

Telling members that they are child molestors because they give tithe...that is your red line.

By the way, not all of the hierarchy is bigoted. They have quite a bit of a conflict between liberal and conservative factions. It is Byzantine. For the last 20 or so years the conservatives have been in some serious ascendancy. I hope this is about to stop.

[Bluenorthwest]

244. Excuse me, but I have never said any such thing. I do not need any lecturing either.

This theory you have that those of us critical of RCC's bigotry don't know about the many nuances of that organization is misplaced. I first visited the Vatican as a child, I have been many times, met Popes, called Cardinals by their first names. Not only do I know them, they know me. We know each other.

In closing, I have to repeat that it is stunning that you tell me not to say things I would not say and do not say...but Francis, who started this whole dust up by calling gay people evil and instruments of the devil gets a pass for things he has said, actually said, repeatedly, publicly and using the color of divine authority. Two sets of rules. They can say anything about us, and be called holy, but if we so much as object, we are called bigots. For standing up for our own damn families when they are attacked by ignorant bigoted old men.
Folks get to decide to stand with that which is love based and good, or that which is hate based and atavistic. It is a choice we all get to make.

[nadinbrzezinski]

251. Give me a direct quote

Where I denied there are attacks and bigotry against the LGBT community

I will be waiting....for a long time.

Have a good fucking life. (Yes, bigotry is bigotry, regardless of the form it takes)

[zappaman]

262. "Excuse me, but I have never said any such thing."

Of course, you haven't.
No one at DU has said they think simply being a Catholic means they are child molesters.
The OP has made this up and when repeatedly called on it, does not provide any links to support their assertion.
Look thru this thread and the bullshit is clear.

[Evoman]

214. +1, my friend.

I don't understand people who are more upset at their religion being called out then they are at real people being hurt and oppressed by their religion.

[Bluenorthwest]

248. And that poster did not respond to the points I made nor the questions I asked, but instead

launched into characterizations and claims that I had said things I'd never say. I'd gladly endure the lecturing if there was also respectful response and replies to questions put forth.

[Brickbat]

250. Respectful response and replies to questions?

You'll never see it. Condescension and willful ignorance are her stock in trade.

[Lobo27]

50. I'm Catholic, was born one, and will die one.

If people do not like the church that is fine, it your right not to like the church. The only thing I don't like is when people say you should leave the church. Yes, I know there is corruption, there has been pedophilia and other things. But why should I leave something I love, I want to work hard to make the church better, to bring the church to a new light.

It wont be easy, nothing ever is.

[nadinbrzezinski]

58. And as a catholic you know of the tension, ever present

Between conservative and liberal factions. I wish you luck supporting the liberals.

[nolabear]

52. Hallelujah and amen.

[Autumn]

54. I was raised a Catholic. I don't attend Mass very often,

the Catholic Church and I have a lot of differences but.... some of those Priests, and some of the traditions have had a strong and positive influence on my life and I will keep and cherish them. It's not all bad, just some of the people and even then I have hope for changes. As for the sex abuse, they should be arrested, charged and treated as any other sex offender.

[behrstar]

55. If you march in the parade with NAMBLA

don't be surprised if people call you a pedophile

[idwiyo]

61. You give your money to RCC, you friggin well know some of it would be spent on covering

up pedophilia, some would be spent on bigoted hate speech and policies against LGBTQ community, some of it would be spent on promoting mysogonistic attitude and policies against women, etc, etc, etc.

So, if you belong to organisation well known for the 3 sins listed above AND you still give money to them and go to them to fulfil your spiritual needs, than you you are supporting bigotry and mysogonism, and at least your money support pedophilia coverup.

Don't like what I said? Too bad. It's ain't anything but truth.

[union_maid]

181. Not the whole truth, though

It could also contribute to keeping a family ( usually headed by a single mother) from losing their housing when there's nowhere else to turn. It could fund a food pantry or meals for the indigent. It might be used to help undocumented immigrants. The local RC does all these things here in this locality and they're sometimes the only organization that does. I'm not Catholic or religious. In that sense I have no dog in this fight, but the fact is that the RC church is a huge organization with a variety of people, priorities and views.

[idwiyo]

216. "It could help someone" is not the same as it WILL harm a hell of a lot of people. Including that

single Mum by denying her birth control or abortion because chirch run hospitals don't offer these services and nearest PP clinic is hundreds of miles away.
Those young homeless kids who are on the streets because their families listen to their pastors and kicked them out of the house for being gay.
Those kids who are abused even as we speak by pedophile priests.
Those adults who were abused when they were kids and who can't get any closure because RCC keeps protecting their abusers.
Those people who did not use condoms because RCC told them its a sin and who now have HIV or AIDS because of it.

So, you want to contribute to charity? Find one that doesn't deliver a heaping dose of hatred with every dose of help.

[union_maid]

220. It's pretty much the same

I don't contribute to the Catholic church, or any church. Not religious. Don't go to church. I do work for a secular agency that is involved with all sorts of poverty related issues.The RCC church in our area most certainly do the things I listed. No "could" about it. No church is denying any of our clients or potential clients birth control. They may maintain that they should not be using birth control (although many priests don't really hold with that anymore) but they have no control over access to it. Homosexuality is not accepted by RCC church, but I have not heard of any priests talking families into kicking their kids out. No doubt it's happened in the past, but that would not be limited to one particular religious group and it's certainly less common now. Pedophilia and institutional cover-up? You bet. I'm not saying no. Just saying it's not the whole story or the whole church.

[idwiyo]

237. That's like a battered wife syndrome at its worst: "but he isn't like that all the time!"

He always buys me flowers and apologises next day (after beating the shit out of me previous night).

The fact remains, if you (generic) give money to RCC than you support institutionalised homophobic bigotry, institutionalised misogyny and institutionalised pedophilia and protection of pedophiles.

No amount of charity work will erase that ugly fact. Nor does it excuse it or make it better.

[union_maid]

238. OK,you're entitled to your opinion on that

but that's what it is. It's your view. You are not making a statement of fact. My view is that life and a huge institution like the RCC is a lot more complicated than that.

[idwiyo]

240. Actually I am trying to figure what is your argument? Is it RCC does some nice things too so it's

not all bad? Because that's what it sounds like. Hence my example of battered woman syndrome.

[union_maid]

242. Not exactly

It's that it's a huge and complex and very old institution full of people who do and think a wide variety of things. I don't pretend to understand in any deep way the faith and attachment that some members and even clergy who disagree with it on major issues have for it, but it's there. Many of them don't just do good things, but rather devote their entire lives to doing good things. To say that because they're part of it, or that they donate money to it, they are supporters of bad things is overly simplistic. No one has to support their work, but to say that it's always wrong to do so seems very narrow minded as well. Some of the good things that the RCC church does here are really important and no one else is stepping up to do them or in other cases equipped to do them.

[nightscanner59]

62. Sorry if this seems a bit devil's advocate... but...

Practically all religions have systematically been responsible for bloody, cruel and unusual crimes against humanity for centuries now. "Creation of the (evil) other" has resulted in the forced slavery, anihilation, abandonment/banishment, "punishments" from stoning to out and out wars against anyone who, "doesn't look like us", "doesn't believe in our values" or just plain "doesn't deserve this (land, animals, water, right to live and let live, etc) for hundreds of years now. Was the inquisition not just a little bit.... bigoted?! I certainly didn't "create" anyone as my "other". The religions come armed with chosen verse to throw me off the cliff, burn me at the stake...
I don't know who/what posters appeared to attack personally, but frankly, nadinbrzezinski, my dead native american ancestors would rise up out of their graves to have a little talk with you about your group being unforgivingly bigoted. The catholic church's campaign to discriminate against my own love and life marriage plans... not a choice on my part, but possibly one of yours, maybe a little bigoted as well?
Religions tend to give their followers a sense of deserving, "I'm saved, you're not", "manifest destiny", has made especially the big, scary catholic monster one of the many forces I must fight for my freedoms! Thousands of native americans live in unbearably desolate lands while the good european-ancestery whites gather in the church that stood on the fertile, green gardens that were once theirs.
If you are a force for change within this bloody organization, I love you. A little factoid that many christians appear to miss is that Jesus, first and foremost... was a rebel! They hung him on a cross because he threatened the powers that be. But catholics, along with many others, align themselves with the powers to be bigoted, discriminatory, justify murder and other crimes. I simply cannot respect that.

[behrstar]

67. Perhaps

but in terms of sheer numbers of people tortured, killed, and molested, I think catholics win
How many holy wars have the Jews (or the Bahai) waged?

[nadinbrzezinski]

81. You might want to read the book of Joshua

Followed by Judges. Those were religious wars with quite a bit of genocide.



Just because no religious wars have not been waged recently...

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. All religions have done that.

But people have been called child molestors. That is a problem.

And trust me, no religious hierarchy is free of guilt. None...

As to the "conquest" of the New World, I am more than aware of what was done in the name of insert god here...genocide is the proper term. I use conquest in quotations since it was, and continues to be, genocide. These days cultural.

[idwiyo]

239. "All religions have done that" is NOT an excuse for this particular one or for any of them.

When it comes to laity, I don't care which religion they belong to. If they keep supporting that particular religion with voluntarily giving them money, they support all the ugly shit that religious institution is engaged in. There is just no way around it.

In all honesty, would you argue the same way in support of those members of Republican Party who would like it to disassociate from religious right and worst of its rhetoric, but wouldn't leave the party and keep voting GOP?

I saw quite a few of moderate republicans arguing that even though they disagree with GOP on many issues they will not leave the party because its not all bad and they just have to keep working on changing the party from within. Same damn argument liberal members of RCC presenting as an excuse for supporting their choice of religion, don't you agree?

[nadinbrzezinski]

276. Good bye

I have no place in my life for clear bigotry

[idwiyo]

291. You mean your famous ignore list? I am honoured.

You sure have enough place in your life for people who enable homophobia, mysoginism and child abuse.

[zappaman]

277. Welcome to the list!

The IGGY list!

[idwiyo]

292. I don't think she actually has one. But I am honoured. Kind of got tired of BS in this OP.

[zappaman]

293. You kidding?

There are literally hundreds of DUers on the list.
That's not to say she doesn't cheat to see who is posting what...

[idwiyo]

295. There are not enough active posters to fill ignore list with hundreds of people.

She would be posting in a total vacuum by now.

Maybe someone should ask for a proof. Like a picture of it or something.

[840high]

65. Thank you.

[Bennyboy]

68. Hold on here. religion is choice, it is not race...

And I think I speak for a lot of people here, that the rank and file Catholics have done diddly fucking squat about the abuse. Ask yourself what you have done personally except spend your time defending them? have you even written a letter? protest in front of your church? Investigated your priest to see if he might have been with parishioners children?

I googled Kennedy, Kerry and Mother Theresa "denounce child molestation catholic' and I got no response. So even the high profile catholics are ignoring this and doing not a fucking thing about it. I don't know what. if people I was associated with were fucking kids i would be burning that shit down myself (figuratively) and I would certainly stop being in whatever the hell organization I was in.

And that is just the one issue there.

[behrstar]

69. Exactly.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. Yup, why Jews were slaughtered since it was a choice.

Chuckle, genocide can be over ethnic or religious identification as well, and the US has a history of open rank discrimination with Catholics.

And my lord, if you are unaware of what the American laity has done to demand reforms, it is not my fault.

I know this, and I am not even catholic. It's been in the news lately.

[Bennyboy]

80. So I googled "american laity of catholic church reforms child abuse"

And I found a story. One, from 2010. that's about what, a half a million more kids abused? http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/04/02/us.vatican.reform/index.html


And yes there were "reforms' since 2002, but has anything stopped? Have priests gone to jail? did the Cardinal that admitted last week that he had inappropriate behavior go to jail for that? Did the new pope say "hey pervs out there we are going to hunt you down and have you arrested and sent to prison if you are caught> NO, he has yet to mention anything about that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. I sure realize you missed the NPR interviews, CNN and MSNBC

Just over the last week.

Have a good day.

[Jerry442]

70. If you endorse what the hierarchy is doing, keep supporting them. If you don't -- don't. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. That is independent from telling DU'ers here

That they are child molesters since they happen to attend mass.

That is crossing into the personal attack territory.

For the record, I am critical, not just of the Catholic Church, as an institution, but would never tell a follower of a particular faith some of the things people have posted here.

Is this now a tad more clear?

To boot those attacks are also against the TOS

[zappaman]

87. "telling DU'ers here...That they are child molesters since they happen to attend mass."

Link?
I've haven't seen anyone call another member of DU a "child molester since they happen to attend mass."
I call bullshit on your assertion.

[Evoman]

215. It has never happened. The OP keeps claiming it but it's not true.

Even if it happened once (I'd be surprised if it has), it's still only one person. Making a whole OP to whine about it is silly.

[michigandem58]

268. Just another made up accusation

There never seems to be a link for this stuff, does there?

[idwiyo]

241. Can you please post a link to the tread where someone was called a child molester for going to the

mass?

BTW, saying that by giving money to RCC one supports pedophiles, willingly or unwillingly, is NOT the same as calling someone a child molester.

[nadinbrzezinski]

252. Sorry, but it is.

By the way...you do know tithe collection in the economic north is way down right? Care to connect dots?

And the comments here are driving posters to leave...and you know what? I can't say I blame them.

[idwiyo]

294. So, where is the link?

[Buzz Clik]

73. I've decided to convert to Catholicism for one day. The reason?

I want a hug from nadinbrzezinski.



Such a nice person with smart things to say.

[Arugula Latte]

76. Oh, good, another condescending post from you letting us know what we can and can't say

about religion. Thank goodness you let us all know what was acceptable to express about the last inauguration, and now this. Now we can proceed.

Seriously, though, I've been reading a lot of criticism of the church and its policies and the Vatican and the hierarchy, which is fitting for any rightwing organization, be it the Tea Party, the Mormon Church, an anti-gay group, an anti-women group, what have you. Personal attacks? ... Not so much.

[nadinbrzezinski]

78. Thank you, I just love the passive agressive

In this post.

[zappaman]

83. 'I just live the passive agressive"

You certainly do!

[Evoman]

217. Fuckin' ay

OP keeps claiming DUers are calling catholics child molesters for supporting the Church, which is a complete falsehood.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

84. The homily today included not throwing stones at pedophiles.

pedophiles? Normally, I might think yes, pray for them. But when it is the priesthood itself preaching and abusing, it is very difficult to stomach that sort of advice.

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. And why I said, lay off the personal attacks on DU'ers

There are reasons to attack the hierarchy, in spades.

At least the US now has a zero tolerance on this. The church needs to go against local traditions and make this global.

[SleeplessinSoCal]

197. In the church I work at there is a constant stream of "abortion is murder" and now this "don't throw

stones at pedophiles" from the Pastor. This from Franciscans. I don't believe there is anything wrong with this, but the 4 worship ministers above me are gay. Some semi-openly (there are those who know and those who don't). The hypocrisy is stunning.

I believe firmly that the more pressure on the clergy, the better. The nuns can't do it all.

[nadinbrzezinski]

201. Agreed, it has to come from the congregations.

Franciscans...thank your lucky stars...at least they are not Dominicans.

(As you know, there are differences between the orders)

[SleeplessinSoCal]

210. I worked at the church for 6 months where the Domenicans got in big time pedophile trouble.

That was long enough. The first day there, I stood for about 10 minutes a few feet from priests working on an electrical problem and they wouldn't acknowledge I was there or speak to me. It was rude and jarring. Then I had to take a lengthy "safe environment" exam and get finger printed by the FBI. All because their own priest was a pedophile. They seem clueless, heartless, and completely thoughtless. Prefer the Franciscans by far.

[nadinbrzezinski]

213. I had philosophical discussions

With a Jesuit Seminarian at oh dark hundred. He was working on a double theology/ Cosmology PhD.

Oh it was...interesting. Especially when talking deep space objects and possible life off Earth. He was a fan of Carl Sagan, and before exo planets were found, by decades, he said some in the Church might have issues. These days I just wonder if he is enjoying the planet of the week discovery

I was working on my masters in history. So my view, from the outside, of the Dominicans was over the Office of the Holy Office (Inquisition). He said that they had not changed that much.

Now talk of scary.

This is why I might have a far more nuanced view...as a Jew I truly should not.

[michigandem58]

88. The Catholic church facilitated child rape

as well as championing a host of sexist and bigoted positions. I can't imagine a progessive wanting to be part of that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. It is those same progressives getting attacked here

Who have started changes and why the Church in the US currently has a zero tolerance policy with child molesters.

It is this same laity that will bring this to Europe and hopefully the rest of the Church, but you carry on.

[michigandem58]

144. No, that was victims filing lawsuits

And the church was dragged, kicking and screaming, to accountability. And they still have to be watched like hawks as far as I'm concerned.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. And they were not part of the laity?

Wonders never ever cease.

[zappaman]

147. Huh?

Can someone translate this please?

"And they were not art f the laity?"

My head hurts...

[michigandem58]

163. "And they were not part of the laity?"

Still doesn't make a lot of sense, though.

[zappaman]

167. As if any of the Op does...

[michigandem58]

153. Christ, are you that obtuse?

Of course they were. But you were implying liberal Catholics drove the church. through persuasion and influence, toward zero tolerance. But it was lawsuits by the victims, progressive or not, that did it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

157. No, I am not that obtuse

As I said they are not members of the laity, easy peachy.

Nor were they alone...

[zappaman]

161. You mean "easy peasy" not "easy peachy"

"Easy peachy" is not a term.
You are welcome.

[michigandem58]

171. I know I'm getting nuanced here, but..

"And they were not part of the laity?" is actually the opposite of saying "they are not members of the laity".

The first implies they are. The second states they are not.

[nadinbrzezinski]

173. Have a good one

http://www.amazon.com/New-Anti-Catholicism-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0195176049

[michigandem58]

203. The book you linked was written by a contributing editor for The American Conservative.

I'll keep siding with gays, feminists, and sexually abused children while the offenders try to make themselves victims.

[nadinbrzezinski]

205. I am as well, but will not stand for bigoted attacks

On Catholics who happen to be members of DU...I assure you...they are not members of the hierarchy.

I can distinguish...and even stand side by side with the Nuns who are fighting the good fight.

Nuance is missing here.

[zappaman]

206. "Nuance is missing here."

So is any proof of your allegations that "DUers are calling other DUers simply for being Catholic."

[lbrtbell]

91. Calling out the church for its heinous crimes is not bigotry

The fact that you're speaking out for the Catholic church, instead of speaking out for the children who have been molested by priests for decades...my stomach is churning.

[zappaman]

92. "Calling out the church for its heinous crimes is not bigotry"

This statement is 100% accurate!


But the OP maintains that some DUers are calling other DUers "child molesters" for simply being Catholic.
Which is bullshit of course.
Notice how the OP has not provided a link to these DUers comments?

[nadinbrzezinski]

99. Calling individual members is

Try to keep us and re-read the OP, carefully this time.

[Dawson Leery]

107. Never forget the 300,000 babies stolen from their parents by the RCC in Spain (under Franco)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/world/europe/07iht-spain07.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

These babies were sold to the wealthy who could not conceive or did not want to go through the process of bearing a child themselves.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. So we are clear

1.- Read the OP again. I will join you in being critical of the hierarchy...

2.- This is about members of DU, some who are leaving, because they were called child molestors for the simple fact they happen to be Catholic. That statement, to a member of the laity...IS BIGOTED.

I am not excusing the Church, they have done enough to deserve the upcoming crisis. Calling a fellow member of DU a child molester is way over the top. Capice? Or are we not done yet conflating the issue.

[Dawson Leery]

131. Membership in the RCC certainly does not make one a child molester.

We agree. Anyone who said this needs to have their post hidden.

[zappaman]

133. But no one has said it!

OP provided links that did not support this assertion in any way...

[nadinbrzezinski]

134. Here, a series of bad posts.

Asking Drunken Irismnan not to leave.

Posted one as a mistake, which is not.
This is Drunken Irishman's post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2521242

Here is another

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2521319

One more

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2521432

I could go on, and that is just his thread.

There are more

That is where my OP came from. You know I have no patience for bigotry, even if I know the Church faces a serious crisis.

[zappaman]

136. These links do not support your assertion.

[Bluenorthwest]

249. I posted in that thread to offer a comparison to the sort of post LGBT people endure on DU

No one commented on that. I have not seen any other minority spoken of in this way on DU:
Thread title: "Big drop in those who say being gay's a sin, study says."
Here is what A DUer posted:
"Stll consider it a sin. in a certain form
But as one Black pastor pointed out on CNN or one of those.. if one is a Red letter Christian of which I am. Jesus never actually went there. So knowing that the Old Book is a history book and nothing more. Since it's the new book we are to follow. Can't say this out loud much more. Such as I've been told looking at nude significant others isn't an actual sin if neither person is married (gets tricky if she is and she's doing it anyway) (this from a college Professor at a rather right leaning Lutheran college. ) And they considered that less of a sin than being Gay. Many of whom I think are more BI than Gay. Although this seems to be the case more in females than males. (seems to be.. ie only Elton John do I know to be Bisexual. )"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014364722

So I have to say, Irishman complains about posts critical of sexual abuse and bigotry and yet when LGBT people read such posts as the one above, I don't see all that many LGBT posters saying 'you are all bigots' to the faith community. 'less of a sin than being gay, many of whom are more BI than gay'.
Just saying. If we were all as touchy as Irishman, DU would be empty. Or is it ok to smear gay people, as that post does and as Francis does, but just not ok to object to such bullies? What's the actual standard?

[nadinbrzezinski]

273. You do know that many LGBT have left DU

And some of us have spoken against that bigotry as well. Bigotry *is* bigotry.

[Whisp]

165. apparently that post is really well hidden, no one can find anything like it. n/t

[Apophis]

185. +infinity

[DCBob]

143. Im not Catholic but my wife is.

I have been critical of Catholics but I also see their good side. In fact, I think the good actually outweighs the bad.

[nightscanner59]

148. When I was a homeless youth,

And I broke into the back door of a midwestern catholic church to have a place to sleep and some food from the fridge. I was, "the other". The banished youth for not aligning with many a religious moral prerogative. It remains my sole experience inside any white-folks church. The leftover casserole and pie was good, thank you. Thank you for the tithes that made a meal for a starving runaway possible. I might have eaten lead and/or been imprisoned if you'd known.
Likely no one was the wiser.
As it was, that helped make it possible for me to hitchhike west to San Francisco, be taken care of by a pedophile, grow up, go to college and have a career.
Had it been up to many of the christians, I'd have starved in the desert or been returned to bruising abuse of the homophobic "christians" I ran away from.
"nor can you expect Catholics from advanced economies to be able to impose a whole slew of values (consistent with first world concerns) on the developing world."
Really? The invading padre's and their enforcers didn't already do this with flying lead? Didn't take the lead in destroying the herd of buffalo to replace it all with mechanization, pollution, enforce the almighty reign of the dollar and god? Whom did it enrich?

[nadinbrzezinski]

168. You might want to go to a few Catholic Churches in Mexico

Among the saints and all that, Ehecatl is still there. (The wind god) As I was told once by the Curandera, you need to learn how to read the rock.

Kukulkan and Huitzilopochti are still present in the faith of the Maya.

And I know my local tribes still pray to the four cardinal points.

And no, I will not defend bernardino de Sahagun, or Motolinia...not one bit.

[MFrohike]

149. Nice post

I only want to add two things to what you've said.

1. There's a difference between the "church" and the actual church. The hierarchy are NOT the church. They're the hired help. The laity are the actual church. The laity are often frustrated by the hierarchy, especially those above the level of parish priest. Most laypeople don't get involved with actively opposing the hierarchy because we can simply ignore them. They often live in a fantasy world where the church is still the power it was in the Middle Ages or the Counter-Reformation and simply don't know that times have changed. It's terribly cynical to say, much less think, but all we can do is outlast them.

2. The US is on its way to being a plurality or majority Catholic country. I think some of the posters who ripped into catholicism without any differentiation of hierarchy and laity might want to consider that in their glee to denounce everyone and everything.

[nadinbrzezinski]

162. Thumbs up

Yup

[cleanhippie]

166. 100% bullshit.

This might come as a huge news to you, but unless you have converted, like being born white, Chinese or whatever, it is not your choice.

Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit.


One has a choice whether to believe what the catholic church teaches or not. One has a choice whether to fill a pew or not. One has a choice whether to fill the collection plate or not. One has a choice whether to support a misogynist, homophobic, child-raping and protecting institution or not.

[Dawson Leery]

169. +1

[zappaman]

172. +100

and for many more reasons why this OP is complete bullshit.

[Apophis]

186. Exactly.

[MichiganVote]

175. Right. So the Bishops will get right on it. Should take oh, a couple hundred years

to stop buggering kids? Umm...stop repressing females, unlike Jesus Christ who had the audacity to like do that when he was supposedly alive? Oh, and that rock thing--there is a rock and then there is clay....as in feet of clay.

I think that every single person who wants to criticize every church official who has denied and distorted the real scope of sexual abuse by priests deserves to be called out. The people who have been wounded have not only suffered themselves, they have cost us as a society as well.

So too bad, so sad. Anyone who would protect child abusers is in denial. And for what its worth, I probably have a longer resume' on belonging to the church than most people who do criticize. I not only expect that change come fast, I see no reason to demand it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

176. Only one thing to say

http://www.amazon.com/New-Anti-Catholicism-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0195176049

[MichiganVote]

179. Sorry, I don't buy it. I am familiar with the ideas but frankly,

when I was growing up and even into adulthood, if someone so much as sniffed in the direction of the Catholic Church, they were considered suspect of bias and prejudice against the church. This has led to a fabricated reality of divinity which in turn has led lambs to the proverbial slaughter.

The Vatican is a state. I see no reason for it not to take its lumps the same as the US or any other country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

183. So I guess we can ignore a long history of religious wars.

Hooray.

Good for us!



Or the deeds that in la Jolla specifically forbid selling property to blacks, Jews and Catholics, for example.

None of that ever happened

And I will ignore what I have seen here over the last two weeks.

We all have a fantastic imagination.

[MichiganVote]

190. Well you can ignore whatever you like, or not. For my money I cannot and will not

ignore the sexual abuse of kids and women at the hands of clergy in any sect. None of that was created by religious wars. But if that excuse could have forestalled the criticisms of the Vatican, I've little doubt the Bishops would have used it. Curious they don't.

[nadinbrzezinski]

207. Alas you never read the OP

You know what folks...you want to be critical of the very serious issues the Church has, pedofilia comes to mind...by all means. I will join you.

But you cross a huge red line when you personally attack individual members of the church.

Members of the church are lay members, not the hierarchy...

But you go on.

[MichiganVote]

269. Anyone who calls themselves a Catholic/has been baptized is a member of the church.

Without the victims of clergy sexual abuse carrying the huge load of seeking justice, there is nothing substantial that the members did do or would do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

271. This s what s hilarious of the assumption you are making

I am Jewish. The last mass I attended was over twenty years ago, for a member of the Red Cross, a Veteran, who died at the ripe old age of 96.

I know some of the things the laity is doing, like not giving tithe every Sunday any longer, since the laity is...well...pissed.

Perhaps I am intellectually curious and hate brad brushes.

Anyway, this conversation is not just over, but way over. Those who chose bigotry will continue regardless. It is not a progressive value, or at least I used to think it was not. I am sorry to find that with some groups...it is a-ok.

[zappaman]

202. "We all have a fantastic imagination."

You certainly do!
Since you made up the assertion that "DUers are calling other DUers child molesters simply for being Catholic."

[Douglas Carpenter]

178. knr

[truebrit71]

187. What a steaming pile of bullshit...FUCK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

...if you put money in the collection plate every Sunday you are funding their anti-gay, anti-woman agenda...No other way to look at it...

[nadinbrzezinski]

189. Thank you for the shining example

I wonder if this will be enough for some.

[truebrit71]

191. Welcome!

Its not rocket science. The Catholic church relies on partial funding off its operations from weekly collections. The Catholic church also actively works against equality for the LGBT community. Ergo, if you give money to the Catholic church you are supporting their bigoted, hateful agenda. No other way to square that circle..

[nadinbrzezinski]

211. And it is those same progressive members of the laity that are demanding change

I guess you'd prefer it if every liberal member of the laity, and the hierarchy left.

Yup, that will make the church that much more responsive.

Mind you, a schism might happen, but not for the reasons you think.

While we are at it, we should also see every social service the church runs closed down (which incidentally some of the most radical right members of the hierarchy would love to do).

I love cartoon images of extremely large organizations with internal conflicts that are...to say the least, Byzantine.

But hey...if all you see is hate (and there is plenty of that) I can't help ya.

Myself I prefer the route of tolerance and understanding and wish that the liberal members of the laity and the hierarchy start to actually make headway. But that is just me. At the very least...don't complaint if anybody makes bigoted statements of something you are deeply attached to.

Don't worry, somebody does. I will stand against it as well. It's a principle I live by.

Oh and dear I am Jewish, before you tell me to go to church or anything like that.

[BainsBane]

193. that money doesn't go to the Vatican

or anywhere else other than the local parish and it's work with the community. Don't you think you should find something like out before deciding to hate 1.2 million people.

[Bluenorthwest]

247. US Parishes donate about 28% of the 60-100 million dollars parishes sent to support the Vatican

This is done each year as part of the fest of Peter and Paul, Sunday nearest the 29th of June. Peter's Pence is the common term for the donated money.
"In 1871, Pope Pius IX formalized the practice of lay members of the Roman Catholic Church – and "other persons of good will" – to provide financial support to the Roman See. While the regular tithe goes to the local parish or diocese, Peter's Pence goes directly to Rome

At present, this collection is taken each year on the Sunday closest to 29 June, the Solemnity of both Saint Peter and Saint Paul, according to the Roman Church. According to the report, in 2007, donations amounted to $79,837,843. In 2006, it was $101,900,192. United States was the biggest donor, giving some 28% of the total, followed by Italy, Germany, Spain, France, Ireland, Brazil and South Korea. In 2008, donations totaled $75.8 million, $82,529,417 in 2009, $67,704,416.41 in 2010 and $69,711,722.76 in 2011"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter%27s_Pence

Those are the facts. Those are the numbers. It is odd to claim that parishes send no money to Rome when they do and to call it 'hate' to say that they do what they do.
If they are in the Church, they should support their Church. But they also need to accept what it is they are supporting, and that the organization spreads much intolerance toward gay people and many very sexist teachings about the nature and role of women. Pretending the Church is not what it is helps no one, including the Church.

[limpyhobbler]

195. I completely agree. Well said.

I'm just going to paste in what I said in another thread:

Apparently some people think a religion is something you can just drop anytime you want just because it has major problems. They don't realize that Church is part of what connects us to our families and communities. And it's part of who we are.

People don't always just abandon their community because they don't like some things about it.

Consider then Senator Obama's remarks on why he wouldn't disavow Rev. Jeremiah Wright

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy... Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely — just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed... I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother — a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe. These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.

I think Obama did a good job of explaining that. Church, Catholic church is a center of family and community life for millions of people, good bad and ugly. It's where we go for funerals. I hope people will criticize on issues but not get personal against other DUers. At the same time I understand some people who aren't Catholic simply can't understand the apparent hypocrisy of of attending a church that is against gay people and abortion, while claiming to be a liberal. And so we have something of a tragedy here.

[Bluenorthwest]

245. Jeremiah Wright? His Trinity UCC church is inclusive of LBGT people. He does not stand up and

attack minority groups. The comparison is specious and in a way exploits a good man who took brave stands for justice to defend a man who is the opposite of that, the new Pope.
You offer up a loving and inclusive minister to rationalize a hate speaking and discriminatory Pope. I do not think that is fair or even logical.

[JDPriestly]

199. When I was 18, I converted to a religion that was right for me.

It was hard at first for my family, but now they understand why I did it.

I want people to know that they have choices, but I don't think anyone should be condemned or overly criticized for the choice of religion that they make.

The Catholic Church has a lot of problems but also does a lot of good in the world. That's my personal opinion.

But it is not true that people don't have a choice when it comes to religion. I chose, and I am happy with my choice. Everyone can choose even if it is only an inner choice and not seen by the world. You can believe whatever you want. Don't let anyone else, including DUers tell you what to believe.

In my opinion, this is a discussion blog. Everyone should be pretty free to say what they want. We should not hurl personal insults.

I note that a lot of Catholics are very sensitive about criticism of the Church right now. I hope that will pass.

Interestingly, there is a lot of criticism of Israel on this board and no one seems to feel that maybe Jewish people feel hurt and unwelcome. No one seems to care. There is a lot of criticism of Evangelical Christians too. They stay with it.

Maybe Catholics need a safe haven on DU. Maybe Jews and Evangelical Christians do too. But I think it is sad when we can't accept that the criticism of others can be right or wrong but it can't really hurt us.

[nadinbrzezinski]

208. I frankly do not read the I/P bard

Quite a bit slides into rank antisemitism.

As you said un welcomed...

I know Evangelicals feel this way too.

Why I guess I stuck my head out.

It s the constant creation of the other.

[JDPriestly]

221. I just think people struggle with their personal search for meaning and

coming to terms with death. Religion deals with those issues and not always very satisfactorily.

So when you talk about religion, you are aiming at some very raw areas in people's lives. It all about the unknown and unknowable and we our minds and hearts don't deal with that degree of uncertainty very well.

I have come to feel a lot of certainty about religious issues, but it took me a long, long time to get where I am, and I'm sure I have further to go.

Always great to "converse" with you on DU.

[nadinbrzezinski]

224. Agreed, a lot f it s about death.

We will all die.

[snooper2]

204. I'd prefer humans quit religion of all stripes...

numbers are against me though , but---

Time-

is on my side

[nadinbrzezinski]

209. I think it will happen in time.

But for the moment we need tolerance

[RoccoR5955]

218. Oh, come on already!

Don't you folks know that religions are nothing more than a brand of mythology, that is designed to scare people, so that the leaders of said brand of mythology can control its masses?

That's all that religion is. Nothing more, nothing less.

[nadinbrzezinski]

219. You surely have heard of...tolerance

But hey....and I am not even Catholic...but bigotry is bigotry.

[murielm99]

222. This kind of bigotry has been going on

at DU for years. I am glad that people of faith are finally getting brave enough and strong enough to fight back.

[nadinbrzezinski]

226. For some of us...this is on principe.

Bigotry is bigotry. The last week has been particularly bad.

[backscatter712]

230. Asking members to stop supporting an organization that promotes hate is not bigotry against them.

Who here has impugned all members of the Catholic faith?

Of course there are lots of decent people out there who call themselves Catholic, and also support LGBT rights, women's reproductive rights, equality and justice.

At the same time, the church they attend is controlled by a powerful organization that systematically promotes homophobia, misogyny, disinformation about contraception, etc. This organization has protected members of its hierarchy guilty of child molestation, exercised an extremely authoritarian form of rule, and to be blunt, angers and disgusts me.

So, yes, I'm asking Catholic members here to stop supporting the hierarchy, not just with words, but financially by withholding tithe.

Countless people are already doing that, and they're leaving the church for good. And I applaud them.

[zappaman]

231. "Who here has impugned all members of the Catholic faith?"

No one.
At least no one who wasn't trolling and immediately PPRed.

But the OP has set up a strawman and dammit...she is going to fight against it!

[nadinbrzezinski]

232. You know what has happened to tithe in the first word?

You know why they are selling property in the US and Ireland? It's not just the lawsuits.

[backscatter712]

233. Much of that is due to the hierarchy dumping liabilities on parishes to cover their own butts.

http://www.economist.com/node/21560536

When the big bills (which include settlements for child-molestation cases) come due, the hierarchy and the Vatican aren't going to suffer. They'll "suppress" parishes (IOW, take the parish's bank accounts, sell off the land & church building, reassign the priests, make the parish cease to exist) to pay those bills. They'll cook their books to dump the liabilities on smaller pieces of the church, like small parishes and dioceses, and then have those pieces declare bankruptcy.

And yes, tithing is falling in the U.S. & Europe, because a lot of people don't want to feed that monster. And who can blame them?

[nadinbrzezinski]

234. Why changes are coming

And yes, tithing is falling in the U.S. & Europe, because a lot of people don't want to feed that monster. And who can blame them?

[ButterflyBlood]

266. Actually yes, it is a choice

You can be born Catholic, just as you can be born white or Chinese, but you can't convert away from being white or Chinese. You can cease being Catholic. I did so. So even if born into it, one is still making a conscious decision to stay.

[zappaman]

267. Shhhhhh!

The OP will not tolerate disagreement.
Please edit your post to say "I agree! You are so smart and so right!"

[badtoworse]

272. Thank you for posting this

The anti-Catholic posting on DU has gone over the top.

[BlueCheese]

274. In 2008, the Democratic Party's nominees for President and Vice President opposed gay marriage.

Their opposition to gay marriage was used in the successful campaign to pass Proposition 8 here in California. One of them even said his opposition was rooted in his religious beliefs.

Should we all have left the Democratic Party, and refused to donate, because we were supporting anti-gay politicians? Was the Democratic Party irretrievably bigoted, and all of its other good deeds irrelevant as a result?

[Orsino]

275. I'd say that *only* individuals should be attacked.

Group attacks against Catholics aren't progressive.

Attack individuals, if you must, for their selfish and cruel decisions. We needn't pretend that the Catholic church isn't larger child rape and misogyny.

[Raine1967]

278. I've stayed out of these threads -- until now.

I'm of german heritage.

My four grandparents were brought to America by my great grandparents. I have vivid memories of two of my great grandmothers.

Let me make this clear: I have german heritage.

You know what that means? That means my parents, born in the forties grew up with having to explain to people that they were not nazis. I actually grew up learning of german atrocities and

I was baptized as a Lutheran. I have largely left the Church, not because of Luther. MARTIN LUTHER! I still identify with Lutheranism -- and I still acknowledge being a German. My family history has a lot of blots. My heritage does as well.

Germans are not bad people. Lutherans are not bad people.

Catholics are not bad people. Does the Hierarchy of the Catholic church have serious issues? I say probably, but so did the country mygreat grandparents and grandparents were born in.


I despise the attacks on the Catholic Church and its members I am seeing here on DU. We should be better than this -- as a community.

[nadinbrzezinski]

279. I speak out because I know where that bigotry leads to as well

and no, not all Germans were responsible for Nazis.

From one Jewish family to yours, peace.

It's time we learn the lessons of that history and speak out against bigotry when it starts to show the first bud of spring.

[Raine1967]

286. Thank you for understanding.

I was nervous posting what I did.

[nadinbrzezinski]

287. I do, fully

[patrice]

280. It's all pretty confusing, who is doing this and why, because the RC church is being accused of BOTH

protecting homosexuals http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/marielena/130316

and persecuting them.

Sorry about the Reich-winginess of the source linked above, all, but it is worth the perspective on this particular issue.

.....................

Thanks, Nadine!

[nadinbrzezinski]

281. You are going to make me delve into all that!!!!

With pleasure. And I hope that is more than correct.

:-;

[patrice]

282. I have been reading most of the afternoon. LOTS of stuff going on! I kind of knew about it

because I have been interested in the Papal Order of the Golden Spur, the fact that Eric Prince is a Catholic Convert, and this political action group http://www.tfp.org/ and stuff like that, but I guess I thought it was maybe more latent than it may actually be.

[nadinbrzezinski]

283. Well...many years ago I was told a nice tidbit by a Jesuit

Who was a follower of lulac...many of those who swore no, we are not followers no more...did so to rise and protect those bellow.

The politics in the church are very Byzantine.

This though is way too much inside baseball. I also love some well done sarcastic writing.