I can actually respect the position of the Catholic Church on abortion.

[Nye Bevan]

If someone believes sincerely that life begins at conception, then banning abortion is the logical thing to do. Personally I do not agree with this position, but it does have logical consistency.

However, it follows that the church's position on contraception is utterly nonsensical. Condoms prevent unwanted pregnancies and therefore reduce the number of abortions. The Pope should be working to have free condoms distributed as widely as possible. And then of course there is the prevention of STDs aspect. I wonder how many people have died from STDs because the church opposes condoms.

[Warpy]

1. I can't respect their lack of personal and religious boundaries.

That's the problem, you see. You can hold any silly-assed opinion you want to but trying to impose it on a whole country full of people who don't agree with it is dead wrong.

While that church continues to play politics, it needs to pay taxes like any other political organization.

Period.

[nomorenomore08]

26. Exactly!

nt

[Keefer]

29. When was a church...

ANY church, designated as a "political organization" Just sayin'.

[nomorenomore08]

47. Maybe they should be, if they endorse candidates, ballot initiatives, etc.

[Warpy]

59. It's high time one was

Remember, the Moral Majority and Christian Coalition were.

Mormons and Catholics are overdue.

[ZombieHorde]

2. I am strongly pro-choice, but I do think we tend to deomonize and

misrepresent many pro-life individuals.

[Dawson Leery]

9. Most "pro-life" people are pro-war and pro-capital punishment.

They are being hypocritical.
"pro-life" = pro zygote.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

20. Whoa there. I am "PRO-LIFE" in that I believe

in the sanctity of life. Would I impose my position on a person who is pro-choice and/or had an abortion--absolutely not! I have no right to judge another as each person's situation is unique. I am also against war and capital punishment. BTW, most of my friends who are "pro-life" are of like mind.

[Squinch]

32. But you must know that, politically, pro-life means abolishing a woman's right to choose.

The way you describe yourself, in political terms, you would be considered pro-choice, in that you respect that others have the right to make different decisions from yours..

[corneliamcgillicutty]

54. My comments are of a personal nature, not political.

[Arugula Latte]

37. My observation is that many, many, many of them are men

who feel they can and should control women. They don't give a shit about fetuses. It's control they want.

[Melon_Lord]

45. Maybe... Some also feel it is genuinely murder...

... Of a baby.

There is a spectrum ...

[loyalsister]

3. They are also consistent as they oppose the death penalty

They also are not just interested in caring for a fetus until it is born. The central doctrine has a strong focus on caring for poor.

[edhopper]

8. Doesn't make their reasoning

any less illogical.

[magical thyme]

35. actually they do care about the fetus, in that they will protect an expiring fetus

thereby causing the mother also to die, although in the mother's case needlessly.

[loyalsister]

38. My bad

I meant to say that they care both before and after they're born, unlike most pro-lifers.

[bitchkitty]

4. Every sperm is sacred! n/t

[Nye Bevan]

5. The anti-masturbation thing is also ridiculous (nt)

[bitchkitty]

6. Oh, the humanity!

All those dying little tadpole looking spermies, writhing on the ground. Makes the angels cry...

[Keefer]

31. "Writhing ong the ground?"

Really???

[Webster Green]

41. Not writhing for too long.

I wouldn't imagine.

[bitchkitty]

51. But what about their little spermy souls? Hmmm? n/t

[bitchkitty]

50. Yea, sin of Onan. You don't read your bible?

SINNER!!! LOL

[Keefer]

63. I read the Bible every daay...

...but I get your LOL

[edhopper]

7. The idea that "life" begins at conception

is antiquated and unscientific. it is a result of medieval thinking.
I no more respect this idea than i do of young earthers or new age pyschics. i don't care if they are sincere or use some sort of screwy internal logic.
They can postulate all they want about when this "soul" they think exists enters the zygote. But they fight to hard, and often succeed, at imposing their will on the rest of the populace.
They believed in witches too (some still do) so i guess we should respect their belief in burning people alive.

[Webster Green]

11. I believe that it is life.

However, I do not believe that it is a living person quite yet.

If the Mars Rover discovered a similarly small group of growing cells, it would be all over the news that "life' had been discovered on Mars.

[edhopper]

25. You will notice that I put "life" in quotes

So I am going to assume that you got my point and not deal with semantics.

[Webster Green]

28. I completely agree with your point, but still find the semantics important.

Like I said, it may well be considered to be "life", but IMO not entitled to the same rights as an actual "person".

[Keefer]

36. "Antiquated?"

I am a democrat. I have been voting democrat all my life. My first vote for president was for Jimmy Carter.

I disagree with abortion, and I disagree with this post. I'm sorry if that offends anyone, but abortion kills unborn children.

"Life" begins when a heartbeat is detected. How else can it be explained? Without a heartbeat, life does not exist.

I may upset some people here, i don't mean too, but that is how I feel.

[Webster Green]

56. Is there a heartbeat at conception?

I would guess no, since there is no heart to beat yet.

I'm not a doctor though.

[immoderate]

57. "How else can it be explained? Without a heartbeat, life does not exist."

The beginning of life is not as self-evident to everyone. I place it at viability. A six week embryo is itself just detectable. It's heartbeat is one of many developing systems. Even so, there is no rule that will protect the rights of women under all circumstances.

There are lots of arguments that show that regulation on abortion is arbitrary, discriminative, and counter productive. Here's one: Canada has open abortion on demand. They have 20% fewer abortions. Go figure.

--imm

[RedCappedBandit]

61. Huh?

What does a heartbeat have to do with it? Ever heard of plants? Maybe I'm misreading your post.

A zygote is not a child. It has the potential to grow into one. Nothing more, nothing less.

[uppityperson]

64. Plants and starfish aren't alive since they don't have heartbeats? Abortions are ok before there is

a heartbeat since that is your definition of "life"?

[edhopper]

66. The arguments for

when abortion should be allowed are much more nuanced. Though I still fall on the side of it being a private matter for a woman, her family and her physician.
But my post is about the Catholic Churches prohibition of abortion starting at conception. We are talking about a four cell zygote.

[dkf]

10. The Catholic church doesn't believe in recreational sex does it?

[Webster Green]

12. No.

Sex is only for reproduction. That is why they are against contraception in any form.

[dkf]

13. You can't blame them for inconsistency.

[Webster Green]

15. Agreed.

They have been steadfast on that one.

I left the Catholic Church early on because I found the whole thing really creepy, and the doctrine and beliefs just ridiculous.

[nessa]

44. That is wrong. The Catholic Church teaches that marital sex is both unitive and procreative.

By unitive they mean uniting two people in love. The couple must be open to both aspects. If a couple has sex purely for reproductive purposes without being united in love, it is just as much against Catholic Church teaching as a couple in love that uses artificial birth control.

If a couple has big fight, not feeling love, but they have sex purely because it is the optimal time to conceive, that would be against Catholic Church teaching.

[Webster Green]

55. Damn.

Thanks for that.

They really are all up in your shit, aren't they?

No make-up sex?

[nessa]

58. LOL If you're truly making up ... no problem. In part, it is a teaching against using people. (nt)

.

[Dawson Leery]

33. The Vatican opposes enjoyment in life.

[liberal_at_heart]

14. I don't necessarily have a problem with people thinking life begins at conception

although I disagree with it. But you cannot legislate it. Laws cannot be written that restrict people's freedom to have an abortion based on religion and belief. You make a good point about needing to increase education and access to condoms.

[Keefer]

48. "Laws cannot be written that restrict people's freedom..."

Why not? They do it all the time!

[RainDog]

16. I agree, sort of, but it's a religious claim, not a medical one

Their belief is one based upon the idea of when someone receives a soul. The issue hasn't always been perceived by the Catholic church as it is now (or protestant ones either, for that matter.)

But even a belief that life begins at conception is not a rational excuse for banning abortion. Catholic doctrine understands very well that there are situations in which there are competing and valid ethical responses. One classic is this: is a man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his starving children a criminal.

Regarding abortion: a mother with other children is unable to carry another child to term, says her doctor. her health will not permit it. Is it ethical to deny that women the choice to continue living and caring for her living children? Is it ethical to sentence a woman to death by denying access to a procedure that would prevent her death?

Shouldn't that woman, her family and their religious leaders or other respected figures be the ones who make that choice? By what means does a religious institution claim it has greater authority than that woman's religious belief?

Even the banning of abortion is unethical. The stricture against birth control is highly unethical and counter to any scientific evidence. By continuing such a stance, they create more abortions. By banning legal abortion - this doesn't stop abortion. It just causes more deaths from abortion.

That's what their "ethical" position produces. So is that ethical?

[kdmorris]

17. I don't have a problem with people believing life begins at conception

But when they use those beliefs to legislate choice away from others - then that's a huge problem that I do not have any respect for. I have beliefs, too, that others may not, but using those beliefs to take freedoms away from others would be just as wrong for me to do as it is for people who are pro-life. (What if someone decided that the Catholic church had done so much harm that it should be against the law for people to worship in a Catholic Church? I would be just as offended at this practice - though I'm not Catholic - as I would other attempts to use personal or religious beliefs to regulate the personal lives of the rest of us.)

I agree that contraception and education would lower the numbers of abortions, so it makes no sense to oppose contraception if that lowers the number of abortions.

[ananda]

18. You can be both pro choice and anti-abortion.

Abortion services, birth control, and all reproductive healthcare should always be free and accessible to everyone.

[treestar]

21. I was raised Catholic yet

strongly agree with that. Make abortion irrelevant - use birth control. Being against birth control is insane in this day and age, and most Catholics aren't, really. The church needs to get real. They have before - or we'd still be buying pardons and indulgences.

[snooper2]

22. It doesn't matter what somebody believes

When can the fetus become a baby survive outside the womb?

I worship science but I'm not going to start putting zygotes on a pedestal LOL

[darkangel218]

23. You're an anti-zygot.

[Apophis]

24. I don't respect it.

But I agree with everything else you wrote.

[hrmjustin]

27. I believe a women should have the right to have an abortion.

Others can believe as they wish and I say go with your heart. I do not like when people say people who believe in reproductive rights are embracing a culture of death or that we want to kill babies. Nobody likes abortion. It is hard enough on a female that she has made this decision, and she should not be put down or declared an evil person. I respect that a person can have a moral issue with abortion, but they should respect the fact someone else can disagrees with them. Abortion is an easy issue for some but for others it is not so easy.

[Buzz Clik]

30. +1 on all points.

Well done!

[forestpath]

34. I hope none of your loved ones are ever pregnant, need an abortion to save their lives,

and are in a Catholic hospital.

You'd see just how "pro-life" the Catholic church is then.

[Dawson Leery]

40. +1

Help stop Catholic hospitals merging with non-catholic entities.
http://www.mergerwatch.org/

[southernyankeebelle]

39. They think even the birth control pill is a form of an abortion. Crazy

[magical thyme]

42. tell it to Savita Halappanavar...oh wait a minute, you can't

They fucking murdered her in order to protect her dying fetus from an abortion.

Sorry, no respect for them whatsoever.

Their own Bible has many passages that imply that life begins with the first breath. The Vatican is just a bunch of creepy, old, misogynest control-freaks seeking to keep women *everywhere* pregnant, barefoot and in the kitchen.

[Dawson Leery]

43. The Vatican murdered Savita Halappanavar.

Certainly.

Fundamentalist "Christians" (men) see the process of conception as being an extension of God's "creation".
Since their God is in the form of a human male, the human male on this Earth is having their power, in turn, God's power relinquished.
They cannot tolerate this, therefore they oppose ALL abortions and ALL contraception.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/07/world/europe/07iht-spain07.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2012/11/15/savita-halappanavars-death/

http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/11/theology-killed-savita-halappanavar/

[RainDog]

65. I agree. Their teaching is responsible for murder

Their teaching is responsible for the murder of someone about whom there is no doubt of her "personhood" in a court of law or in any religious teaching.

Total ban on abortion is unethical.

[Honeycombe8]

46. Not meaning to dis the Catholic Church, but it's against their interest to promote contraception.

That would limit the growth of their membership. Awful thing to think, but you have to consider...is there some benefit to that position? A conflict of interest? Criminal investigators consider "who benefits from this murder?" when investigating homicide.

The Church used to have a rule that all babies born to a Catholic parent are required to be babtized Catholic, or the parent would be kicked out of the Church (a fate that devoted Catholics would view as akin to being denied entry into heaven).

They say it's because contraception would interfere with God's will for the creation of a life, but I wonder....I guess the two things aren't opposed to each other. They may view it as God's will for a CATHOLIC baby to be born.

[ismnotwasm]

49. I can't and don't

But they are also against the death penalty so at least they are internally consistent in that way.

The birth control position very odd. I think they're trying for (and failing) the 'consistency' of respecting life, but it doesn't make sense.

[Why Syzygy]

52. How many people have died?

They could be held accountable for denying medical treatment.

[liberal N proud]

53. A bunch of old men deciding what is right for women?

FAIL!

[RedCappedBandit]

60. Restricting women's rights is wrong, whatever nonsensical justifications they use.

Even *if* 'life' begins at conception, you're still placing the rights of that clump of cells over the rights of the pregnant woman.

[The Straight Story]

62. I am all for the church being against abortion and such

If someone feels the same and wants to be a member fine.

I don't feel the same way so won't be joining them (for many other reasons as well.)

What I am against is trying to get others outside of your church to be compelled to follow your beliefs.