As a long time benevolent sexist

[Bennyboy]

Y'all are taking a lot of the fun out of this thing we call attraction between the sexes. I was raised a polite gentleman and for the most part try to be as gallant as possible. I open doors, pull out chairs and compliment ladies on their looks (and brains as well but that is not the subject). Until this weekend, I thought that women enjoyed it as well, when men did that.

[JTFrog]

1. OH FFS.

You poor thing you.

[Squinch]

23. Yep. But we saw this one coming a mile away, didn't we?

[snooper2]

79. not really, he was on a hayabusa

[Summer Hathaway]

2. I know a LOT of women

and I can't think of a single one of them who doesn't enjoy that kind of behavior.

I'm in my sixties and, by virtue of my age, grew up with this kind of courtesy shown to women as the norm.

But even some of my very young female coworkers - who have grown up to be strong, independent women with careers, etc. - will give 'extra points' to a man who displays such manners.

I remember one of them, a few years ago, telling us about her first date with a young man she'd just met. "And when we got to the restaurant, he insisted on coming around to my side of the car to open the car door for me," she said. And all of the other women present said, "Ooooh, that is SO cool! He sounds like a keeper!"

Do yourself a favor - ignore all of the nonsense you hear from a certain contingent on this board. They tend to "find" sexism in virtually everything - whether it's actually there or not.

[seabeyond]

3. are you suggesting the women on du came up with the theory of benevolent sexism and has

spread it thru the academic books and the feminist culture?

wow

we are good

[Summer Hathaway]

5. I am suggesting no such thing.

What I AM stating full stop, just as I have stated before on DU, is that some women here find "sexism", benevolent or otherwise, in everything - every gesture, every display of affection, every turn of phrase, every demonstration of courtesy, every photograph, every graphic, every workplace situation - everything.

[seabeyond]

8. i am glad to hear you are not giving ownership of benevolent sexism to the women of du and recognize

it is a concept well beyond the women here.

[Summer Hathaway]

14. It is just that

"a concept". And it is a concept that (a) I disagree with for the most part, and (b) has been hijacked by a group of women here who use it to validate the fact that they "see" sexism everywhere and, as a result, play the "benevolent sexism" card whether appropriate or not.

[MattBaggins]

60. No they don't

[RetroLounge]

212. ^^^ This!

RL

[Helen Reddy]

184. Who knew your tendrils of feminine persuasion

travels all over the interwebs?

Gee you are good.

[seabeyond]

192. amusing, huh... lol. nt

[MadrasT]

4. I don't. I find it to be insulting.

But I don't get angry at men who do it, because they think they're being nice.

That doesn't mean I enjoy it.

I can recognize that a man who does things like that is probably a good guy, and still dislike the behavior. I think it reenforces the notion that women = incompetent.

My opinion may be different from yours, but that does not make my opinion "nonsense".

[Summer Hathaway]

10. If you choose to go through life

being insulted by displays of courtesy, that's your business.

I sincerely doubt that a man who holds a chair out for a woman does so because he thinks she is unable to seat herself due to incompetence, nor does it reinforce any such notion.

If a woman opens a door for a man, is she doing so because she thinks he is incapable of doing so for himself? Does that gesture reinforce the notion that men are now weaklings who must rely on a woman's assistance?

"But I don't get angry at men who do it, because they think they're being nice."

How incredibly, uh, benevolent of you.

[LanternWaste]

185. I imagine the corollary is also true...

I imagine the corollary is also true-- should one decide to go through life acting martyred when someone refuses the open door, or (God forbid) actually explains that refusal, that too is your business...

"How incredibly, uh, benevolent of you...."
"Indeed, said my mirror as I quickly looked away.

[redqueen]

25. I find pulling out chairs to be annoying.

But I don't get mad about it.

Opening doors goes both ways so I don't mind that at all and do it back.

Being complimented on my looks by random men? Now THAT I do not like.

I didn't enter a damn beauty pageant and I don't care to hear their appraisals.

[noamnety]

29. ugh, I hate the chair thing.

Forget any sexist overtones - How the fuck am I supposed to have my ass moving forward while my knees are still straight, while I'm in some awkward crouching-above-a-toilet stance so as not to put my full weight on the chair while someone's trying to move it? The table's hitting you in the thighs or waist while the chair is being shoved against the back of your knees.

Men should have to be on the receiving end of it to feel how freaking awkward that is.

[boston bean]

34. It's always made me feel awkward too.

And actually it's never quite as comfortable in sitting had I had more control over the process to begin with.

Most of the time it puts me way to close to the table.

[redqueen]

39. Right? It's so weird.

I don't know why it originated... maybe as a result of our restricted movement due to whatever ridiculous clothing was considered stylish... but damn is it ever uncomfortable for me now.

I wonder how many women actually like it as opposed to just tolerating it with a smile so as not to offend. I also wonder about correlations with religiosity, political ideology, class status, etc.

[Mister Ed]

90. I think you're probably right about the origins of this gesture

I think it probably dates to a time when women wore such bulky skirts that they needed both hands to gather them in when getting into a car or carriage, or seating themselves at a table.

[sigmasix]

167. the last sentence

I would be interested in the data from such a study as well. I've been disabled for many years and I sometimes get the same sort of situation popping-up; as if my cancer is the only feature of my individuality and I need to be cared for like a child because of the severity of the prognoses. I'm not a cancer sufferer; I'm a human being. Women are not objects to be adorned, owned, protected or shown the truth- they are human beings. And expecting them to need a man's assistance with day to day happenings is another way of placing them in an intellectual and emotionally inferior position to men. Why is it so hard for some people to see or acknowledge this fact?

[marions ghost]

50. Here's that awkward hovering thing LOL

So while hovering you have to wait for the chair to hit the back of your knees and hope you don't plop down too hard and go over backwards. Of course if you have good butt control you can wiggle it to get his attention to the task. Then when you hit the chair you have to put some weight on your feet otherwise it's embarrassing if you can't be budged forward at that point. Thankfully you will only have to go through this ritual once. And so, what exactly is it for?

[boston bean]

62. If anyone was racing to pull out my chair, or running to the other side of the car

to open the door for me on a regular basis or hurrying to open doors for me, I'd be like WTH.

Asking seriously....

Are men doing this all the time for their ladies?

Really? All these "niceties" all the time? I don't think so!

[marions ghost]

76. Not the men I know...

My old gentlemanly dad used to do the chair thing, but he kinda gave it up in relief I think. (He had 3 feminist daughters and a feminist wife--they didn't require it).

Flowers are nice from time to time...that's not a bad old fashioned thing. (I'm allergic to chocolate).

But seems like there are hoards of men who are just dying to do ye olde chivalry thing. I can't imagine why, in this day and age. I guess women give them positive feedback. Otherwise, why would you?

I never have let any guy pay for dinners or movies or anything like that. Not unless there's some agreed upon reciprocity.

[Glamrock]

122. Maybe

These hoards of men were raised this way by the women in their lives. My grandmother, for example instilled this awful chivalry in me at a young age.

[seabeyond]

129. i have taught my sons the rules. i also explained benevolent sexism and the issue with it

we had a good conversation exploring all kinds of thought. but then, we have those conversations so often with so many social issues. they are all pretty easy for us.

they recognize how it helps to create sexism. they recognize hwo it can actually do harm, stopping a woman from promotions or equal pay. they get that.

they also recognize there are societal conditions. and some of the girls are gonna have this expectation because they were taught also. and my boys are really really gonna want to impress these girls.

but, when they are impressing the girls, they will understand why they are doing it, what the end product is of this behavior and the harm it can do, so they will not be a part of that in unaware. but be equipped with knowledge.

knowledge is a wonderful thing in our house. we do not reject, run away or hide from it. we embrace it.

[Glamrock]

140. No doubt...

I agree 100%. I was merely trying to answer why men behave in a chivalrous way at this point in time. I really hope you aren't infering that my grandmother, mother, and aunt's are, as Red Foreman would say, a bunch of dumbasses.

[seabeyond]

144. i do not know where the dumbass is coming from, but no.... i am not saying your loved ones are

dumbasses.

[Glamrock]

146. Just checking

Things have been pretty snarky 'round here as of late.

[seabeyond]

148. whatever. there is nothing in my post to even kinda suggest that or snark.

so it makes no sense.

[Glamrock]

154. Apparently, I interpreted your words incorrectly.

"knowledge is a wonderful thing in our house. we do not reject, run away or hide from it. we embrace it." I know, by reading your posts (not just this thread), that you are smart enough to see how those words might infer a different meaning.

[sabrina 1]

198. No, it doesn't promote sexism. But I'm glad you said that because there has been

a whole lot of denial that ANYONE here ever objected to these gestures of thoughtfulness. I just wanted to point out that 'yes, they did' which is why, for anyone wondering despite the denials, there are so many of these threads.

So thanks, I guess.

[marions ghost]

180. Yes I'm sure

this has been instilled by moms and grandmothers at an early age. Because they came of age in a distant time when women had to be on a pedestal, and you had to "earn" her (in order to own her). Certain behaviors were an indicator of serious & honorable intentions and a recognition of her value.

These days I don't think anyone takes it as that. It just means "you and I are traditionalists"--with all the implications of that assumption. Today "chivalry" is definitely a choice, not a requirement. If I were a man I would be glad. From not having to yank out chairs to catch her butt, to letting her pay for her own ribeye. To tell you how much things have changed my 80 year old Dad was aghast when he went out to eat with a woman friend and she expected him to pay. He said, "I'm on social security and she lives on her deceased husband's large legacy." Still, she expected him to pay and pay (all they ever did was go to restaurants, eat drink wine and talk). He would complain to me-- "Well, I paid for another eat-a-thon by so&so." One day he told her that was over. She was very offended. Had enjoyed the gravy train so she could sock away money for her travels.

"Awful chivalry" seems ambiguous. Not sure what you mean. I think you mean it as sarcasm? Am sure to many men it is actually awful.

[JI7]

137. many women give flowers to guys these days also

and probably all women i know pay for half the bill or at least pay for the whole thing as often as the guy does.

it's been this way for a long time. when i think of the whole guy paying for everything and bringing flowers i always get images of the 1950s or something. and even people who were around then say it wasn't always that way then.

[marions ghost]

179. It sure seems very retro now

but is still around, even among the young. At least people question it more. It's more of an indicator of traditional values now.

Back in the middle ages it might have made some sense, making a point of civility. But then it was special behavior reserved for only certain women. Lower classes did not get it.

What it boils down to now is that some women want to feel they're "worth the price," an indicator of how much he will sacrifice to get you. An indicator of his future loyalty (dubious). Seems piggy on the part of women to me. Good indicator of a gold digger looking for a target. If I were a man I would beware of a woman who expects too much booty (the pirate kind).

[AsahinaKimi]

187. You know whats

Weird for me? Is when I am introduced to someone and they think they have to bow.. Japanese style to me. I mean, I never learned to properly do it.. because I lived in the states.. and I am sure my dad or mom would teach me that, if they felt it were necessary.. but having someone bow to you (a non -Asian) is kind of like..


excuse me? what are you doing?


Edited: Sure if I went to Japan, I would hope someone would teach me to do that.. but when I am in Phoenix Arizona and someone does that .. Its awkward!

[seabeyond]

191. you made me want to bow at my keyboard, trigger kicked.

it is what we all see so often, for a lifetime, associated with japanese. conditioning. that wonder nothing. lol.

it is odd. i am so glad you pointed this out.

[seabeyond]

80. ok, but the worse, is a hand on the small of the back to be guided. as if i could not find my way.

ok. fun giggles.

hubby, not so much, more just about touching. but, i have had dates do it and was a wtf...

[99Forever]

6. And that certain contingent ...

.. will now add you to their enemy list.

Their militancy is hurting their own cause, no matter how much they might deny it.

[zappaman]

7. +100 n/t

[Summer Hathaway]

12. I've been a very proud member

of their 'enemy list' for a while now.

[zappaman]

13. Me too!

See you at the First Friday Fish Fry in a couple of weeks!

[boston bean]

16. You too, what enemy list are you on. Have you seen such a list? nt

[Summer Hathaway]

20. Oh, puleeze ...

[boston bean]

21. Puleeze point me to this enemies list you are on?

[Summer Hathaway]

53. I've already explained this to you.

If you still don't get it - well, I can't think of any simpler terms to put it in so that you'll understand.

[boston bean]

64. Sometimes the fault lies with the explainer.

I've never seen a list, I don't know of a list. I don't consider anyone on DU an enemy of mine.

That would be rather simplistic and childish, imho.

[Summer Hathaway]

68. Okay, I'll give this one more try ...

THERE IS NO PHYSICAL 'LIST'.

Get it now?

[boston bean]

71. So, it's an invisible list you've made up out of whole cloth.

For what? To try and get people to think you are some sort of victim by a group of people on DU?

[Summer Hathaway]

87. Me, the victim?

No, that's your role - and you play it repeatedly.

Your lack of comprehension when people banter about 'a list', and have a good laugh about it, is astounding in its immaturity.

Have you ever heard the expression, "I'm on his shit list now"? Do you think people actually write out 'shit lists' when they're pissed off at someone?

[Summer Hathaway]

18. Will you be holding my chair out for me?

God, I HOPE SO!!!

I wonder how long it will take before someone declares that the term "First Friday Fish Fry" is sexist?

Makes me miss Meta, where an OP on the inherent sexism of the phrase would garner at least 250 replies.

[zappaman]

32. No

Actually, I was not brought up to do that.
I do hold open doors for everybody though, but never understood the chair thing...

[datasuspect]

59. i'm working on it

[boston bean]

15. What enemy list? Can you point me to it?

[polly7]

19. I've pretty happily been on it forever. nt.

[Summer Hathaway]

22. Congratulations!

Nice to know I'm in such good company!

[polly7]

27. Thanks! I'm glad to be in yours.

Seriously though ...... I know that 99% of men and women here fully support feminist issues and have no problem with discussing them anywhere. It's how everything is turned into a huge fight when one disagrees slightly, and the insults start flying and good people ganged up on, hurt and accused of awful things. Trying to state your point of view in a thread where clearly only one view is tolerated got too frustrating long ago. That ... and being called a rape-enabler for something really meaningless and stupid. As a victim of a brutal assault and DV, that pretty much turned me off from the start. I'm a proud humanist ( I know that's using the term incorrectly, but I'm claiming it anyway) who believes in equal rights and treatment for every human on the planet and that demonizing one side to benefit another ... never does anything but make things worse, imho.

[zappaman]

28. +100 n/t

[polly7]

36. Thanks, zappaman:)

[sabrina 1]

205. Excellent post!

Yes, I too have been called a 'rape enabler' for stating the ridiculous notion that before we convict someone we get the facts, some evidence of the allegations made, and daring to suggest that sometimes women too lie and cheat and do all the same things men do. I thought we were about equality, but the impression I got from my interactions with these same people is that women are simply not capable of doing the things men sometimes do.

[MattBaggins]

66. So you admit to trolling just to provoke fights with them?

bless your little heart

[MoclipsHumptulips]

196. Bingo. n/t

[Summer Hathaway]

229. I admit to engaging in discussion,

and a few laughs, with fellow posters.

The idea that someone would actually think there is a published 'list' somewhere, and insist on seeing it, is laughable in the extreme.

[MattBaggins]

230. Is DU for building bonds with fellow democrats

or laughing at them?

[Summer Hathaway]

231. Who's laughing at fellow Democrats?

I'm laughing at people who think referring to an 'enemies list' means that an actual, physical list exists somewhere. And that is truly laughable.

Does "building bonds with fellow Democrats" mean I have to agree with the mindless ramblings of self-declared "feminists" - who have been told repeatedly, right here on DU, that their views of what constitutes "feminism" are downright ridiculous?

Besides, thinking that everyone on this board is a "fellow Democrat" is laughable in and of itself.

[boston bean]

17. Enemy list? Please show it to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Legend has it, it is circulated by PM

[boston bean]

37. Well, if there is one, I wouldn't know. Therefore I ask those

who seem to just KNOW they are on one.

[99Forever]

52. Hmmm...

... channeling Richard M. Nixon now?

[name not needed]

69. Here's part of it.

http://feministshosts.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=1

[Bonobo]

153. I didn't know that much ugliness could fit on a single page.

Rip off the pretensions and you see the ugliness below.

What a shithole.

[zappaman]

159. Amazing, ain't it?

And most of the others, who attacked a DUer viciously by going after her membership in a certain group, are still here...and still posting the hate.

[Bonobo]

160. Yup... I have this theory of the "loop"

They create their own enemies (by posting over-the-top crap).

STEP 1: By getting people to react to over-the-top or just plain inane, laughable stuff, they get a reaction.

STEP 2: They THEN label the reaction as "kickback" indicating dormant misogyny. Now they have their enemy.

STEP 3: The final step is to direct all fire at the enemy.

If there are not enough enemies, just turn up the heat on Step 1 and continue to the next step.

It is an infinite, closed loop that succeeds more you turn up the over-the-top rhetoric. So it rewards bad behavior and disingenuous moonie-eyed crap.

[zappaman]

161. As far a theories go, that one ain't half bad.

But this one is still the best...

[RetroLounge]

214. Wow, that's a nasty page full of stank.

RL

[nomorenomore08]

219. Looks to be mostly the product of one person's unhealthy obsessions.

Which makes it even worse.

[nomorenomore08]

168. So because they're (supposedly) being assholes then other people will be assholes in response?

At best that seems like a "Two wrongs make a right" sort of argument.

[99Forever]

171. Assholes?

The only one talking about assholes is you.

Hate speech much?

[nomorenomore08]

193. How could calling anybody a (hypothetical) jerk be considered "hate speech?"

I have to say that's one of the more bizarre posts I've encountered here.

[99Forever]

197. Hypothetical?

Have fun talking to hypothetical people then, I exist in reality, as do those i have conversations with.

[nomorenomore08]

199. I meant an actual person hypothetically *being* a jerk.

E.g. in response to others' (e.g. overzealous message board posters as you described) perceived jerkiness. And I didn't say that you yourself were being a jerk, simply that that seemed to be the implied response to said overzealousness.

[99Forever]

201. Now I'm really confused.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

[nomorenomore08]

203. Sorry, I'll try. You initially said that certain posters were "hurting their cause" by being

"extreme." So I asked, since they were (supposedly) being jerks, if that meant others would be jerks to them in response. Which seemed to me, at best, like a "Two wrongs make a right" sort of argument.

Any clearer?

[99Forever]

213. There's no "supposedly" to it.

Nor did I say "jerks."

Furthermore, that wasn't at all the point I was making. If you want to ask about what have to say, ask me about what I actually say, not what you misinterpret it to be and I'll respond as honestly as I am able to.

[nomorenomore08]

217. So what were you trying to say? I'm honestly curious.

Sorry if I misunderstood your intent.

[99Forever]

223. It's quite simple.

Alienating your allies isn't a very productive game plan. There are some here that excel at doing it. In doing so, they harm the very cause they purport to champion. I don't how to put it any plainer than that. Furthermore, were I the only one that saw this, I might doubt my interpretation, but I am not, in fact, far from it.

[nomorenomore08]

224. Okay, don't know if I agree but I certainly understand (in the sense of "comprehend.")

What "cause" would they be harming? Gender equality? If so, then it doesn't say much for people as a whole, that they can be so easily dissuaded from valid and important ideas.

None of this is personally directed at you BTW. At worst I'll agree to disagree.

[JI7]

26. i don't care for some stranger to compliment me on my looks

i can open my own fucking car door. there are cases where it might be ok like if i'm wearing uncomfortable shoes or clothes and need a hand to walk. but in this case i would take the hand of even female friends for help.

but i find some of the crap to just be annoying. and even worse is when some asshole gets offended that i'm not thankful for some stupid shti he did that i don't even want him to.

[Summer Hathaway]

51. Well, have a nice life

being perpetually pissed-off by people being complimentary, or showing you common courtesy.

Apparently it's not enough for some people to find 'sexism' everywhere - they have to find insults in compliments, and good manners annoying as well.

[JI7]

55. when their "compliments and common courtesy" makes me uncomfortable

why should i put up with it ?

[Summer Hathaway]

61. You shouldn't.

As a matter of fact, you might consider wearing a sign around your neck stating your position - "Don't compliment me or be courteous, because I find it insulting" - lest someone commit an unforgivable act of kindness towards you.

Wouldn't want you to have to put up with that - it's too horrible to even think about.

[JI7]

63. act of kindness ? how are those things acts of kindness ?

[Summer Hathaway]

84. There is no point in trying to explain

kindness, courtesy, or manners to someone who takes such things as insults.

But I will say this: I actually feel sorry for you. You must have a miserable life, thinking that every man is out to insult you, belittle you, demean you - looking for insults to be pissed-off about even where they don't exist.

It's a sad way to go through life.

[seabeyond]

86. thinking that every man is out to insult you, belittle you, demean you

you do it so well, no one needs to wait for a man to do it, that is for sure. lmfao. geez, can you put more scorn into your posts please, not quite saturated enough. i see a little spot you missed.

lordy,

[Summer Hathaway]

91. And "waiting for a man to do it"

is what your whole life is about - ever watchful for a man to say or do something that you can rail about.

Sad.

[seabeyond]

93. you said it, woman. i copied and pasted. really, more scorn, please. nt

[Summer Hathaway]

121. Please feel free to 'copy and paste' whatever you wish.

Am I scornful? Yes, I most certainly am.

I am scornful of women who look for sexism everywhere, so they have something to rail about on a message board.

I am scornful of women who have issues with men, and persist in trying to convince other women that those issues are somehow valid and should be shared by all women.

I am scornful of women who are ever vigilant in trying to find something about the words or actions of men that they can twist into something meant to be demeaning or belittling, when it is obvious that no such intent was there.

I am scornful of women who find ulterior motives lurking behind everything a man does - including showing courtesy, and demonstrating the good manners they were raised with (and probably taught to them by their mothers).

I am scornful of women who refer to men as "little boys playing little boy games" (sound familiar?) If a man responded to any of your diatribes by saying you were a "little girl playing girlie games", you're head would explode. You can dish, but you sure can't take it.

I am scornful of women who obviously hate men, see them as 'the enemy', and attempt to hide that hatred behind the banner of 'feminism'.

I am especially scornful of women whose posts are full of misandry while decrying the misogyny they read into everything - which is, more often than not, mostly imagined in their own heads.

So if you detected scorn in my replies, you were dead on the money.

[seabeyond]

123. justifications, validations, excuses. meh.... nt

[Summer Hathaway]

131. In other words

I hit the nail directly on the head - and you can't refute a single thing I've said.

Just what I figured ...

Now off with you - there could be a man somewhere on DU saying something, and you'll need your wits about you in order to find the sexism lurking behind his comments about trout fishing, or his remarks about enjoying a good steak.

[seabeyond]

136. no. justification, validations and excuses. i say the same to the boys when the try to excuse

behavior they know is not acceptable.

that simple.

and this is beyond boring now.

more fun in the thread elsewhere.

but do carry on with the scorn. lol

[Summer Hathaway]

141. I will certainly carry on with the scorn

because I think you and the rest of the 'contingent' are continually try to hide your own scorn for men by attempting to pass it off as 'feminism'.

To hear you tell it - and tell it you do, every chance you get - everything men do is behavior you personally find unacceptable.

Of course this all got 'boring' the minute you realized your inability to defend your own misandry - which is, of course, obvious.

[geek tragedy]

142. And there it is--the "you hate men" smear---a sure sign an anti-feminist has lost an argument. nt

[Summer Hathaway]

147. If the shoe fits ...

... don't blame me for it being such a good fit.

So if a woman identifies another woman as being a man-hater, that means she's anti-feminist?

You have just lost the argument for all time.

[seabeyond]

150. who are you to "identify" another woman as a man hater. you are funny. but, alas....

i am off to bed. and will cuddle up to my hubby that i hate so well. oh, after checking on those boys i hate horribly. too.

[geek tragedy]

151. It is when you lie about her being a man-hater.

It's an ugly slur that's routinely used to attack feminists by anti-feminists. And, yes, women can be anti-feminist.

[Summer Hathaway]

155. I've read many, many of her posts

She obviously has issues with men. Serious issues. And, yes, she comes across as hating men - ever at-the-ready to find something they've said or done and decry it as sexism, as demeaning, as belittling, etc.

"And, yes, women can be anti-feminist." Where did I say otherwise? You're really an expert at constructing strawmen - or straw-women, as the case may be - and then arguing with yourself while you knock them down.

[opiate69]

156. It really is his specialty...

Brava to you, though, for your work on these threads... good to see others trying to stop the steam-roller.

[Summer Hathaway]

166. Thanks!

But truth is it's a very small steamroller, operated by a small group of self-proclaimed 'feminists' who refuse to accept that their views are not shared by other women who actually ARE feminists in real life, and don't only play one on a message board.

[geek tragedy]

158. Yes, she complains too much about sexism, ergo she hates men.

Was more entertaining when Rush Limbaugh said it.

[seabeyond]

162. i have seen your happy little ass in a lot of these threads complaining about sexism, you man hater,

you

now, really

bed.

no mo

[snooper2]

238. can we talk about smoking duck instead?

My trick (everone's trick) is poking about 6-7 holes in the fatty part on each side...

As it smokes, the fat drains to the bottom pan..about 8 hours for the last one I did. YUM YUM!

[Summer Hathaway]

163. Her complaining about sexism isn't the issue

Her constant complaining about men is.

[sabrina 1]

200. It was never entertaining when Rush Limbaugh was able for find people claiming to be

feminists accusing men who open doors for women of being 'benevolent sexists'. THAT is what is harming the women's movement, this kind of nonsense, and feeding morons like Limbaugh with ammunition to associate all feminists with that kind of idiocy.

Sometimes I wonder if he isn't posting here supporting this nonsense.

[geek tragedy]

204. Do you think the general idea that men should treat women different

because they are women is at all problematic?

[sabrina 1]

220. Your question makes no sense to me, so let me ask you, are you

saying that 'difference' = 'unequal'?

And are you saying that there is no difference between men and women?

[geek tragedy]

222. To put it a third way, is there any reason to extend different levels of courtesy to women

than one extends to men? To me it does not.

[sabrina 1]

225. Well, you avoided the question. And who said that different levels of courtesy should be extended to

men and women? If a man opens a door for me I appreciate the gesture of thoughtfulness and in return I extend an equal level of thoughtfulness which as a woman, I have the power to do.

Where did you get the idea that women were reduced to a less equal level and ever were incapable of returning the favor in some other way? You seem to believe that women are weak and therefore are somehow diminished if someone does something nice for them. That makes zero sense to me. I am strong enough as a woman to be able to accept courtesy for what it is and to extend it equally if I feel like doing so.

THIS is what is so wrong about this 'benevolent sexism' argument. It diminishes women. It assumes they become powerless when a courtesy is extended to them. What a strange belief.

Do you think men are diminished when a courtesy is extended to them? And if not, why not? That seems very sexist to me.

For the record, no extension of courtesy diminishes anyone. Which is why most women see it as ridiculous to be asked to be offended by people doing nice things for each other, AND sexist btw. It is an assumption we are weak.

I don't know who comes up with this nonsense, but whoever they are imo, they have their own issues and ought to deal with them without trying to impose them on others.

[geek tragedy]

226. No. What is meant by benevolent sexism is not simple courtesy.

It's the act of treating women differently--in particular as weaker, more fragile, needing protection--than men.

The door example is the worst one because it is an act of simple courtesy. Better examples include trying to carry things for women, giving up one's seat on the train, making a point of letting a wman off the elevator or train first etc where the woman in question is every bit as healthy and capable as the man.

[seabeyond]

216. Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem and Simone De Beauvoir need schoolin' from you that THEY are the

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 08:59 PM - Edit history (1)

problem with feminism. cool, they have you to keep them straight. and hey, that is just three easy ones i pulled up. there are many many many more that are well aware of benevolent sexism. but, glad to know that you know better, and know that is the reason for the end of feminism as we know it.

you are awesome, women. i would never be so presumptuous. but, hey.... go for it. let 'em know how wrong they are and how much more in the know you are.

[Soundman]

211. Couldn't agree more.

There are a handful that seem to just plainly hate men for whatever the reason. I have been sharing a lot of the feminist posts from this group with my wife. You definitely hit the nail on the head. Miserable wretched souls who must twist everything to fit their needs. The snuggle comment by one poster was very telling.

[NCTraveler]

221. Dead on. This poster is always speaking in absolutes.

Yet goes after others for being close minded. Amazing.

[Evoman]

227. WTF? She doesn't hate men. I'm a man and she and I get along famously.

She dislikes sexist assholes...a feeling I share.

[bettyellen]

208. trout fishing, steak eating? good to see you toss out stupid stereotypes for both sexes at least.

[Summer Hathaway]

228. Are you suggesting that

trout fishing and/or enjoying a good steak are exclusive to one sex or the other?

I randomly chose two topics that have nothing to do with sexism, in order to illustrate the point that some people find sexism in even the most innocuous statements or topics.

Thanks for making my point for me.

[bettyellen]

232. from your post it seems you think they are somehow emblematic of the male experience, LOL.

The 1950's called, they want their mindset back.

[Summer Hathaway]

233. The fact that you equate fishing and steaks

with (a) men only, and (b) emblematic of the male experience, it would seem you're the one with your head in the 50s.

[bettyellen]

234. um, you did that, and i pointed it out to you how ridiculous it is.

and that's just the frosting on the sixty year old ice box cake your serving up.
BURP.

[Summer Hathaway]

235. I chose two random topics

and stated that there are some here who could find something in a discussion of either that would be deemed 'sexist' in some way.

You then equated both topics with men and the 50s.

Might come as a shock to you, but people (of both sexes) still enjoy fishing and good steaks right here in 2013.

[bettyellen]

236. I equated your mindset with the 1950's... because you chose to portray men with old fashioned

sterotypes here in a sentence about men (not both sexes- as you maintain) :

" - there could be a man somewhere on DU saying something, and you'll need your wits about you in order to find the sexism lurking behind his comments about trout fishing, or his remarks about enjoying a good steak."


Just pointed out how you're an equal opportunity stereotyper, LOL. Lady, you need some new material, we're not in Kansas anymore. LOL.

[Summer Hathaway]

237. I'll try this once more ...

as simply as I can, so you can hopefully understand.

I responded to seabeyond that SHE has a 'talent' for finding sexism lurking behind just about anything a man discusses on this board, regardless of how innocuous or completely removed from the issue of sexism the topic of discussion might be.

I DID NOT SAY that only men would be engaged in a discussion about fishing or steaks; merely that she would nonetheless ferret out a MAN'S comments in said discussion (or in any other discussion on ANY topic) and equate them with some 'sexist' meaning.

I could just as easily have identified the random topics as proper sushi prep, heavy metal hits, favorite breed of dog, or the construction of the Brooklyn Bridge.

YOU immediately jumped to the conclusion that ONLY men would post in a discussion thread about fishing or good steaks - and you think I'm the one who is 'stereotyping'?

Newflash: Discussions about fishing AND discussions about great steaks would attract both male and female posters interested in either or both topics. The fact that you equate both topics as being "men only" discussions speaks for itself - in the same way you equate fishing and great steaks with the 50s.

Members of both sexes enjoy fishing and great steaks - as much in 2013 as in 1950.

[bettyellen]

239. "Hey you're a sexist for talking about sexism"= a bag of horseshit

the sexism card? oh my, you are amusing.

[Summer Hathaway]

241. Lost the last argument

so you've decided to move on to another?

Fine by me.

There is a difference between recognizing sexism and finding sexism everywhere - which a certain contingent does here on a regular basis.

There is also a difference between discussing what sexism is (which will often be viewed differently as between one person and another) and declaring what constitutes sexism as some definitive behavior/action/statement that everyone 'must' accept and agree with - no deviation from said declaration permitted.

There is a VAST difference between what a bunch of self-proclaimed 'feminists' on this board declare to be 'feminism' and what the rest of women in the real world believe feminism to be - not only what it is, what is should be, what it could be, but its aims, its long-term goals, and its application in real life.

I have seen members of said contingent make statements on DU like, "This is what men do, this is what men say, this is how men behave, this what men think," as a prelude to a post about how sexist men are.

Whenever I've seen that, I've called the poster on it. When you attribute sexist actions or statements to men, full stop, without any qualifier - e.g. "some" men, a "few" men, or even "most" men, it is obvious that the poster's problem isn't with sexism per se, but with men as an entire group - all the same, each as sexist as the other. And, yes, THAT is but one example of playing the sexism card - and there are many more.

This is part of the reason why 'the contingent' have been told, repeatedly, that they don't represent feminism, nor do they present themselves as a group to be taken seriously - any more than a male poster saying "this is how all women are" would be given any credence by their fellow males.

[RiffRandell]

169. Wish I could rec this post.

I feel exactly the same way.

[geek tragedy]

72. Not everyone holds the outdated view that women should be grateful for

the attention that men pay to their physical appearance.

It was part of that feminism thing you like to rail against.

[Summer Hathaway]

83. No one has said anything here

about anyone 'being grateful' for anything.

But that's par for the course for some people - twisting someone's words to mean something else entirely.

[geek tragedy]

89. You're lecturing the feminists here because they don't accept the Ozzie and Harriet

view that it's appropriate for strange men to comment on a woman's physical attractiveness to her.

This isn't the 1950's. It is not they who are out of touch with how things work these days.

First date tell her she looks great.

Never met her before: keep your opinion to yourself.

[Summer Hathaway]

127. Exactly where

did I say anything about "strange men commenting on a woman's physical attractiveness"?

Where did I say that women should accept the Ozzie & Harriet view of things?

I said neither.

Again you have attributed things to me I never said, and then proceed to argue with what I didn't say, nor even remotely hint at.

As I said before, par for the course for some people. Have you ever considered debating what someone actually said, rather than what you want to believe they said?

[geek tragedy]

135. Check out the condescension you handed out here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2525513

Her:

i don't care for some stranger to compliment me on my looks

i can open my own fucking car door. there are cases where it might be ok like if i'm wearing uncomfortable shoes or clothes and need a hand to walk. but in this case i would take the hand of even female friends for help.

but i find some of the crap to just be annoying. and even worse is when some asshole gets offended that i'm not thankful for some stupid shti he did that i don't even want him to.

You:

Well, have a nice life

being perpetually pissed-off by people being complimentary, or showing you common courtesy.

Apparently it's not enough for some people to find 'sexism' everywhere - they have to find insults in compliments, and good manners annoying as well.

That is the 1950's view, where if a stranger makes a comment about a woman's physical attractiveness, she must have a problem if she isn't appreciative.

You're perpetuating stuff that has been recognized as sexist for decades. But, hey, it gets you compliments from men here, and as you've lectured the feminists here it's always a good thing to have men compliment you.

[Summer Hathaway]

145. Yet again

you take something I've said and twist into what you want it to mean.

"That is the 1950's view, where if a stranger makes a comment about a woman's physical attractiveness, she must have a problem if she isn't appreciative."

I never said a woman "has to be appreciative". What I did say, and stand by having said, is that anyone - male or female - who perceives compliments or a show of manners as "insulting" has issues in dealing with others.

I enjoy being complimented (by men or women), and I enjoy complimenting others (be they men or women). It's a nice thing to do, and makes most people happy in the doing.

Once again, I am truly grateful that DU is not representative of the real world, where people of both sexes can compliment each other, show each other common courtesy, and not be harangued for doing so.

[geek tragedy]

149. Did it ever occur to you that making a compliment on a stranger's physical appearance

may be poor manners? That it's presumptuous to act as if a woman wants to hear one's opinion on her appearance?

No, of course not, because men can do no wrong. Father Knows Best.

Of course, uppity women who object to such 'compliments' from strangers are the ones with the problem. You've made quite clear your belief that women who depart from your quaint notions are emotionally unstable.

[Summer Hathaway]

165. Yeah

"men can do no wrong" - that's exactly what I said, according to you.

I also said that women who object to 'such compliments from strangers are emotionally unstable' - again, according to you.

You seem incapable of responding to what I DO say, and persist in responding to what YOU say, whether it has anything to do with my responses or not.

Being as you persist in leaving me and MY words out of the discussion, why don't you just argue with yourself - which is really what you're doing anyway.

[bettyellen]

206. it is very poor manners to comment on a strangers appearance. I thought most people knew that?

[geek tragedy]

209. Nope, it's good manners if a nice guy/gentleman does it. nt

[Bonobo]

240. Where do you get off lecturing a woman on what she should be offended at?

I thought you said you were a man.

Putting aside the fact that it is hard to imagine a man saying "No, of course not, because men can do no wrong. Father Knows Best. ", let me say again.

WTF do YOU get off telling a woman what or what she should be offended by?

White Knight, Blue Knight or Green Knight, I wonder who you think you are and I drink in your delightfully amusing and ironically hypocritical cries for validation.

[geek tragedy]

242. I don't believe in treating women different--if they are

full of shit, I will say so.

I'm sure Ms Hathaway appreciates you riding to her rescue.

[Bonobo]

244. Ironically, I agree. nt

[sabrina 1]

202. This feminist mostly agrees with her. Seems to me, and for the record she and I

have had many run ins on various topics, she is a strong woman who isn't afraid of a little politeness in this world, even if it does come from a 'man'!

To make it simple, men opening doors for women does not contribute to sexism, period. Benevolently or otherwise.

[MattBaggins]

67. Because she by fiat declared her particular norms

to be "manners" and therefor beyond reproach

[JI7]

97. wtf are you talking about ? sometimes you don't realize things are uncomfortable until

you wear them . "attract attention to yourself" ? what the fuck do you mean by that ?

sometimes i might dress nicer for a more formal occasion but that doesn't mean i want attention and comments from strangers.

[left on green only]

103. Yeah right!

Keep on digging (I mean bailing), please.

So far, your "logic" requires no response.

[JI7]

106. so you think women who might want to dress nice or a certain way are looking for

attention , comments etc from strangers ?

[seabeyond]

110. yes. this is what too many men think. we have had a thread on it. a woman dresses nice, it is FOR

men.

decades. i have not dressed for men in decades. ok, a couple decades anyway. out grew that shit. i dress for me. and what a blessing and freedom that is. but, we had a thread on this once and men literally insisted we always dress for men. that we do not leave the house, without consideration if we will attract men. they could not comprehend that a woman would want to look nice for.....

herself.

*gasp*

[JI7]

116. that post certainly revealed a lot

about that poster.

oh, he sure caught me, i dared to dress in a way which just HAS to be because i want attention from strange men.

[sibelian]

157. What does you control your appearance for

...if not to manage other people's perceptions of you?

What, you want to swan around thinking you look nice but nobody ELSE is allowed to think or say you look nice? Why not? Why aren't they allowed to perceive you as you clearly wish to be perceived?

Seriously weird position...

[JI7]

164. i'm talking about comments from strangers, if one dresses up nice for a friend's birthday party

or whatever else, why do you assume it means you want attention and comments from strangers ?

and the ones i am referring to make comments even if dressed in jeans a t shirt.

[geek tragedy]

108. So the only reasons a woman would be wearing uncomfortable shoes ever is that she's

looking to attract male attention and commentary?

What misogyny at DU?

[treestar]

195. I agree

It's not like I need assurance regarding looks all day long.

It has a stamp of approval aspect to it, too, which makes it creepy.

[geek tragedy]

57. You can't think of one woman who doesn't love strange men commenting on their

physical appearance?

[NaturalHigh]

173. Yeah, but a lot of men have jumped on the bandwagon too.

In all fairness, I think I've been lectured by as many men as women this weekend as I tried to insert a little levity into these ridiculous discussions.

[polly7]

181. No levity allowed. If you're laughing, you're not learning.

[IMG][/IMG]

[NaturalHigh]

183. I've heard that.

Angry all the time is the way to be. I'm angry right now, in fact.

[zappaman]

9. 'I thought that women enjoyed it as well, when men did that."

The ones who don't cry "sexism!" over every single simple thing one does, probably do enjoy these acts of politeness.
Some people are just not happy unless they are not happy.

[nomorenomore08]

11. You probably aren't doing anything wrong. So therefore, this OP seems unnecessary.

Don't worry about what random people on a message board might think of you. I certainly don't.

[LittleBlue]

24. I don't think a vocal minority on DU is representative of women as a whole.

Never had a woman tell me she doesn't like it. Then again, I ask women "hey, you want a hand with that?" rather than using some implication that they can't carry a heavy load. It's more about being social rather than the incorrect notion that they can't walk by themselves to their door or pull out their own chair.

[JI7]

31. do you do it for men ?

[LittleBlue]

44. No

I'll hold the door open if they're right behind me so it doesn't slam in their face. But I don't wait around holding an open door for them. That's a good way to get uncomfortable looks. It's like urinal etiquette, there's no rulebook but you figure it out over time.

[JI7]

45. why wait to do it for a woman unless she is close behind also ? why make her rush ?

[LittleBlue]

46. Because I receive positive reactions

The one or two times I did it without thinking for men, they looked at me funny.

[JI7]

47. maybe because nobody ever did it for the men before

do it some more and maybe they will enjoy it and smile next time.

[LittleBlue]

48. I think it's just an excuse to interact with the opposite sex

I've smiled at a few women before who held it open for me. IMO men don't do it for other men because we don't want smiles or thanks from other men. They seem just the opposite: uncomfortable.

[JI7]

49. i agree

[MattBaggins]

70. Face palm

I'll take what is sexism for $500 Alex.

[LittleBlue]

74. That's your right

I like women and make a special effort to interact with them.

Will I get in trouble for admitting that?

[MattBaggins]

75. I hold the door and offer to help everyone because it is the right thing to do.

Not because I'm looking to get laid.

[LittleBlue]

77. Who said anything about getting laid?

Extremely predatory to expect something like that. Never anticipated anything more than a smile or thanks, never received anything more than that.

[MattBaggins]

81. So your not one of these 20 something morons

that think the work place is a lek site that requires then to spray cologne on their crotches before coming in.

I apologize then but you should consider extending a helping hand to men as well.

[LittleBlue]

82. I don't use a fragrance other than deodorant

My fiancee probably wouldn't like me spraying fragrance on my crotch for the girls at work. The guys who "expect" anything other than politeness in friendly interaction are creeps IMHO.

[BainsBane]

35. No, now a vocal group of men

are telling the entirety of DU feminists complained about something that NO ONE ever did.

[Helen Reddy]

186. Not only men BB

Some women are carrying their water as well.

[BainsBane]

188. yes, as always

my mistake.

[Helen Reddy]

189. To be clear,

My *tsk was to the women who are not helping the issue. That was not directed at you. Apologies, I am not the best communicator.

[BainsBane]

190. No worries

I share your frustration about that. I'm naive in believing that we as women should share some solidarity on these issues.

[Warren DeMontague]

30. Holy fuck, Benny.

Now you've done it.

[boston bean]

38. Poor Benny he's been attacked by feminists on DU.

Show me where this happened exactly? I'll go put in my two cents to whomever personally called out and attacked good old bennyboy!

He really took it personally, for shame.

[zappaman]

41. "it's not an outrage on the level of a picture from 1937..."

I'm starting therapy next week because of that photo!

[boston bean]

42. I have no idea what you are talking about.

You have something you want me to see, either put up a link for me to see, or send me a pm.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. You got it.

[Vinnie From Indy]

54. I hate pork rinds!

Cheers!

[geek tragedy]

56. I know, I mean what woman doesn't like to be told she has a great ass, right?

Damn feminists taking all the fun out of this. Why couldn't things have stayed like they were in the 1950's?

Men are always the victims.

This is totally not whining.

[backwoodsbob]

78. really?

you know of someone who walks up to random females and tells them they have a great ass?really?

[geek tragedy]

99. Ask any woman who's gone jogging in NYC.

Happens with some frequency.

Turns out men's idea of a compliment is often a woman's idea of creepy or street harassment.

Women should not be treated like they're on a first date unless they're on a first date.

[seabeyond]

100. a favorite. but then, i am sure this cartoonist is a part of our small evil group,

[geek tragedy]

102. A favorite of mine--Maggie Estep

[seabeyond]

104. yo yo yo .... hey, if only she would change her "tone" i bet more men would listen to her.

that was cute.

my teenage son was listenin' also

[geek tragedy]

105. "What you got a problem with men?" nt

[seabeyond]

107. no. just stupid men. lol lol. yo yo yo ..... nt

[Matariki]

118. LOL

I LOVE that album!

[seabeyond]

120. i had never heard it or the singer. but, was cute. nt

[Matariki]

125. Oh, the whole album is awesome and funny.

http://www.amazon.com/No-More-Mr-Nice-Girl/dp/B000001EWJ/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363581584&sr=1-1&keywords=maggie+estep

[seabeyond]

133. no more mr nice girl. i love. thanks

tomorrow i am gonna check it out. see what i find. appreciate.

[NaturalHigh]

174. I remember that video being on Beavis and Butthead about 20 years ago.

[NaturalHigh]

175. Do you honestly know one person that cartoon has happened to?

Really now.

[seabeyond]

176. yes. i would be one. many many other would be another. yes, i get men do not have any comprehension

that this truly happens to women and girls, repeatedly, thru out our lives.

you can tell us we are wrong. but, that simply is not gonna cut it.

it starts about 12, for a girl.

[gollygee]

177. I think it happens to all women

At least most women. You don't think women get hollered at?

I'm going to say for sure all women. If they aren't getting hollered at for being attractive, they're getting hollered at for being unattractive. Until they get old enough to be invisible.

[NaturalHigh]

182. Hollered at? Undoubtedly.

As extreme as that cartoon, though...?

[Warren DeMontague]

128. Or, any woman who has taken her donkey to market.

[bettyellen]

210. or bicycling. Ask women what gets yelled at them if they are eating ice cream or a hot dog...

[JI7]

101. a lot of guys do that, even crap like nice tits and other shit

they yell out

[Ian David]

65. I'd be careful about the compliments on their looks. Other than that, keep on. n/t

[Apophis]

73. I like eating dill pickle chips with sour cream.

[Morning Dew]

85. I hope you're encouraging the ladies to smile -

I know I love it when a strange man tells me to smile.

[seabeyond]

88. lol lol. ya. that one too. focused on whatever and some stranger tells me to smile....

wtf???

[Morning Dew]

94. i know, right? It's not enough to be seen as a "decoration" -

you should also participate in being a more attractive decoration at some stranger's direction.

[seabeyond]

95. well, that is our reason for being. we do have that obligation to make sure we are inviting....

and all. at ALL times.

[Evoman]

96. Oh puke. I like the fact that women tend to prefer jerks like me to chivalrous, nice guys.

I never mention a women's look, I'll only pull out a chair if it's stuck in a puddle of piss at the shitty "restaurant" I take them to, and I push the door as far as I can and challenge them to get passed it as fast as they can before it hits them in the ass.

The best part about being me in the mewling nice guys who stare out the window as you take their one and only back to your sex pad.

Alas, I am engaged now, so I can't put nice guys in their place anymore. Tres sad.

[marions ghost]

98. Hard to believe

this is the first time you ever considered that some women don't love that stuff and never really have?

You're just now getting that not all women are alike?

[MrSlayer]

109. Don't let a small group of online extremists spoil life for you.

Most people in the real world don't give fuck one about any of this crap and are more than happy to accept your courteous gestures and compliments. The notion that being respectful and chivalrous is disrespectful and offensive is kind of ridiculous.

Just continue to be the upstanding person you are and don't worry about the crazy train. People appreciate it when someone shows class.

[geek tragedy]

112. What's "classy" about approaching a strange woman and commenting about her

physical appearance?

Lousy advice you're giving.

[MrSlayer]

124. Most people like compliments.

They're good icebreakers to show interest in someone. It's not like you're just dropping them on every single person you come in contact with.

[geek tragedy]

139. Oy. Do you fellas realize that pick-up lines and

benevolent sexism are really not relevant to each other?

Because, yeah, if you compliment a strange woman in her appearance, it is a pick-up attempt. But, no, she is under no obligation to be impressed or flattered nor is she barred from being creeped out.

[seabeyond]

113. ok. i ran to a door today. the poor man got stuck. held for a couple women.

was about to go on his way. glanced back at me. had the deer in head light, oh fuck.... look. wanted to go, but but but, couldnt let go of the door cause a WOMAN was approaching. i started busting up laughing, started running, and told him, really you do not have to wait.

grab the door and released him from his obligation.

convenient store.

did not even think about all these threads until i got into the store. and laughed some more.

no one gives a shit slayer. this is a bullshit strawman battle you men keep going on and on and on.

[MrSlayer]

126. I don't care at all.

I was just throwing some support to this dude who seems to feel guilty for no reason.

[seabeyond]

138. meh... if all these many many many threads of men saying exactly the same thing

really had me believing that it was anything more than a game, i would be empathetic also.

but you are right.... for no reason, for sure, lol

[geek tragedy]

143. He doesn't feel guilty--he's throwing himself a pity party. nt

[opiate69]

114. Yup, yup.. "Social Justice Warriors".. right here in our cozy corner of the `net.

http://m.urbandictionary.com/#define?term=social%20justice%20warrior

[MrSlayer]

130. Riiiight.

[opiate69]

134. Whodathunk it was prevalent outside of DU?

I should have realized it though, as long as I`ve been an internet junkie lol.

[sweetNsassy]

215. +1

As a strong, independent woman I totally agree.

[Common Sense Party]

111. Doors and chairs, yes. Compliments on looks are dangerous territory.

I will say, "That's a lovely necklace" or "What a nice sweater," but only with women I know pretty well and who won't take it as flirting or any ulterior motive or message.

I won't say to anyone--other than my wife or daughters--"You look beautiful" or anything similar.

I think complimenting an accessory or a piece of clothing is fine and polite. But when one steers into complimenting the woman's looks, forget it, you're veering into flirting or harassment or creepy territory there.

[noamnety]

170. No! Stop with the chair thing!

Look, it is physically impossible to move the chair under the table when our weight is on our feet - which are not a foot under the table yet. And we can't put our full weight on our asses in the chair while you are moving it. So where are we supposed to put our weight during this operation? We aren't human hovercrafts!

Just let us move our chairs like the rest of humanity - sit, slide our feet forward under the table, then we can lift out butts timed perfectly to when we are sliding our chairs in.

Seriously - try having your wife slide a chair in for you once, just at home when nobody's looking, so you can grasp how awkward it is to have the chair bashing the back of your knees trying to shove you forward when you're in a position where you can't move your feet.

[Matariki]

115. Really? LOL. Well I guess it's just masturbation for you then

since "this thing we call attraction between the sexes" is no longer fun for you.

[Matariki]

117. BTW - it's TWO THOUSAND FUCKING THIRTEEN

The Twenty FIRST Fucking Century. Why the hell are we still having this conversation?

[redqueen]

119. Right?

We've got a lot of work to do.

[nomorenomore08]

132. Cannot believe this fucking thread is at 130... Ridiculous...

[nomorenomore08]

152. I think both sides are reading things into the other that aren't there.

For one thing, they seem to have totally different ideas of what a "compliment" entails. One is thinking along the lines of "You look nice today" - which it wouldn't occur to me to tell a stranger (or co-worker) but appears relatively innocuous - whereas the other is thinking of insults/harassment.

So one side is thinking RE: the other, "Why do you hate friendliness/politeness?" while the other is thinking "Why are you okay with blatant sexual harassment?"

[NaturalHigh]

172. I still haven't found anyone on DU who knows better than my mother...

and my mother taught me to hold doors open for women.

[HappyMe]

178. I can't believe these threads are still

going strong.

I may have to dump the word 'benevolent' into the trash. Which is a shame that it has to keep company with all the gun words that are in there.

[treestar]

194. I would quit the looks compliments

It implies that we are mostly about our looks.

The chair pull out I've haven't actually seen in a long time. I haven't had a chair pulled out for me since I can remember.

The door thing - do for both sexes.

[Scout]

207. oh for fuck's sake

.... again.

ya'll sure are some delicate flowers, aren't you?

[goodthanksandyou]

218. There is nothing wrong with being a gentleman.

Last edited Mon Mar 18, 2013, 09:02 PM - Edit history (2)

As a gentleman myself, I admire them.

There is also nothing wrong with harmless banter.

No one here gets out alive anyway.

Edit: by harmless banter, I am referring to harmless banter, in real life, between men and women.

[LWolf]

243. My mom does,

but then, she's 74 and it was the norm for her formative years.