This message was self-deleted by its author

[darkangel218]

This message was self-deleted by its author (darkangel218) on Thu Apr 4, 2013, 05:15 AM. When the original post in a discussion thread is self-deleted, the entire discussion thread is automatically locked so new replies cannot be posted.

[union_maid]

1. Well, it used to be here in NY

Varies from state to state. I remember back in the day, when 19 year old boys were drafted into the military and sent to Vietnam it seemed so wrong to have them sent off from here to another state, before going overseas, where they were not treated as adults. Of course, the other side of that was that with some easily obtained phony proof we were getting into bars at age 14. Seriously. We did it and got served drinks all the time. The other downside is the drunk driving related deaths. They're bad enough now. Lowering the drinking age further would no doubt make it worse. I do think that a military exemption from the law would not be out of line. If you are assumed to be able operate lethal weapons or offer up your own life, seems to me that you should be able to enjoy the full benefits of adulthood. Even better, maybe we should stop sending kids off to war.

[darkangel218]

5. Maybe we should stop going to useless wars alltogether.

Regardless of age, we need to stop being the worlds police and take care of our own country. Over 2 trilions wasted only on the Iraq war. Plus 200,000 lives. Let's freaking stop this madness!!

[aquart]

42. Yes. NY tried it. Big boon to funeral industry.

Stupid idea then. Stupid idea now.

BTW, the reason 18-20 year olds make such great cannon fodder is why we don't want them to drink and drive.

[Kahuna]

95. Yep! Then for a minute, NJ tried it. That was another boon to the

funeral industry, causing both NY AND NJ to jack it back up to 21.

[markpkessinger]

196. On the other hand . . .

. . . I was in college in New Jersey when the drinking age was 18 (Westminster Choir College, a music conservatory in Princeton). The school, in its wisdom (and to no small amount of criticism), opened an on-campus pub, on the theory that it was better if students drank on campus then getting into cars and driving to an off-campus bar someplace.

[Heywood J]

200. Meanwhile, other countries have it.

Not a ridiculous boon for the funeral industries there. Why might that be the case?

In Canada, the drinking ages are 19 in Ontario and 18 in Quebec. In France, Germany, Russia, Poland, Ireland, and the UK, it's 18. In Denmark and Italy, it's 16.

[Helen Reddy]

2. How about if we just stop

asking 18 year olds to fight and die in wars?

[aquart]

44. Because most us still live on planet Earth, not Fantasy Land.

[Zoeisright]

139. Oh, right.

Because something is hard, we shouldn't do it. Got it.

[Helen Reddy]

154. Thanks for such a sweet reply. n/t

[Coyotl]

3. Alcohol is an immense social problem and alcoholism a terrbile disease, why make it worse?

Better to raise the age to 24 or so.

[darkangel218]

6. Because sometimes people want to escape reality.

Alcoholism it is indeed a horible disease, but not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic.

[Coyotl]

13. So, drink poison, you say. Yeah, brilliant solution to make things worse.

[darkangel218]

37. Just because you chose to be straight age, doesn't mean everyone else does.

I never smoked pot nor I ever will. Do I have the right to say others shouldn't just because I don't? And a beer every once and then hasn't killed anyone. Get off your high horse and look at the facts objectively please.

[Occulus]

171. "Do I have the right to say others shouldn't just because I don't?"

A great many American citizens, some of whom have accounts right here on DU, do in fact believe exactly that.

[liberal N proud]

28. I started drinking legally at 18 and it is not a problem for me.

It does not make any difference what age people start drinking because for many, it is a problem regardless of when they start drinking.

If people are educated on alcoholism, there is a better chance they will not become alcoholic while still others are effected by one sip.

The problem is the way alcohol is percived in this country and how we glamorize it with ads.

[MineralMan]

32. That's not really the issue at hand.

We consider 18 year olds to be adults in almost all other ways. Equal treatment under the law is part of US law. That's the issue being presented. Yes, alcohol can be a bad thing, but it is a legal substance for adults. 18 year olds are adults by law.

[randome]

38. Adolescence can last until 20 or so.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolescence

'Equal treatment' can also mean we push the age far enough ahead so that 'late bloomers' are physically adult.

[MineralMan]

54. Yes, I understand. But Americans are deemed to be adults at 18.

That's the law. Either they have full adult status or they do not. There's the rub.

[randome]

68. Can't be President at that age.

[MNBrewer]

127. Neither can 34 year olds

what's your point?

[randome]

131. That no one is an adult in all aspects at age 18.

There are laws that delay certain matters until age 21 or beyond.

[MNBrewer]

142. Drinking age was 18 when I turned 18

and look. I'm still alive. it's a miracle!

[NutmegYankee]

144. And that means what to this debate?

[randome]

146. That you are NOT deemed an adult in all ways upon the age of 18.

You have to wait until 21 to:
Apply to adopt a child.

Gamble.

Go on a cruise unsupervised.

Rent a car.

Hold an airline transport pilot's license for an airplane, helicopter.

Apply for a provisional license to drive a large passenger vehicle or heavy goods vehicle.

Supervise a learner driver (providing you have held a full license for the same type of vehicle for at least three years)

In some states, you cannot marry without parent(s)' permission until 21.

You also cannot be President at age 18. You have to be 35.

[NutmegYankee]

148. No, that doesn't mean that at all

That's an office qualification, not a right of adulthood. Hell, by that logic all immigrants never reach adulthood, as they can never be president.

And your other examples are choices of private companies.

[randome]

152. These are all state or federal restrictions on age.

Except for the rental car one. I'm not sure about that.
And apparently the cruise restrictions are also individual company restrictions.

[NutmegYankee]

157. And you haven't shown they are reasonable either.

If your an adult at 18 and subject to all the responsibilities, then you should get all the privileges. If society doesn't want to do that, then lets make juvenile laws apply till your 21.

Our drinking age is ridiculous. Europeans drink at younger ages and still manage to kick our ass academically.

[randome]

162. It wasn't my intention to show them as reasonable. They exist.

Fewer drunk driving deaths will always favor keeping the age at 21. I don't think any state or federal change is in the works so this entire thread is a debate about something that will never change.

[NutmegYankee]

163. The same was said of segregation in 1950.

Give it time.

[randome]

167. Yes, but given the concerns expressed on this thread about physical brain development...

...I don't think segregation and under-age drinking have that much in common. I also don't see any state in the future lowering the age back to 18 and then welcoming the increase in deaths related to drinking. Not going to happen, IMO.

[NutmegYankee]

170. Like I said earlier...

Europeans drink at younger ages and still manage to kick our ass academically. The brain development argument is and remains, bullshit.

[loyalsister]

189. The population of those deaths would expand considerably

18 year olds have far more interaction with 17 an 16 year old adolescents because they are very often in the same peer groups in high school.
Yes, high school students manage to get their hands on booze already, but making it easier would have tragic results.

[xmas74]

177. Lottery and bingo are both 18 in my state.

Just saying.

[randome]

194. Huh. I'd call that 'gambling' but apparently the state doesn't.

[City Lights]

149. Absolutely nothing. nt

[NutmegYankee]

150. Exactly! nt

[xmas74]

158. But you can be tried as an adult at an even younger age.

14 year olds can be tried as adults.

Neither the age of being tried as an adult or the age of becoming president has anything to do with the drinking age.

[randome]

161. The other items I listed DO have to do with adult responsibilities that do not accrue at 18.

Such as being able to adopt a child.

I disagree vehemently with the concept of trying minors as adults.

[xmas74]

176. And which is the more "adult" responsibility?

Having a beer or adopting a child?

[MADem]

215. More like the mid-twenties...."kids" have longer childhoods now than they ever did...!

http://www.academic.marist.edu/mwwatch/fall05/science1.htm

[aquart]

47. Gosh. Prohibition.

Are all the proven dumb ideas coming out to play today? Is this CPAC?

[Melon_Lord]

82. It's reality...

Better to get experience and build up instead of being dropped into it in full adulthood.

[Xithras]

109. At 18 you are an adult.

The idea that some adults get rights that are denied to others is horrifying in a free society, and the fact that some people would deny others equality "for the good of society" is infuriating.

Either 18 is "adult", or it isn't. If society determines that 18 year olds are too immature to drink, then they should also be stripped of the right to marry, the right to vote, the right to fight in stupid wars, and the right to determine their own destiny. If they are not adults, they shouldn't have the rights of adults.

And if they ARE adults, they should have ALL THE RIGHTS of adults. Equality should never be dependent on someones moral or social outlook.

[randome]

111. Not everything accrues at age 18.

At 21, you can:
Apply to adopt a child.

Gamble.

Go on a cruise unsupervised.

Rent a car.

Hold an airline transport pilot's license for an airplane, helicopter.

Apply for a provisional license to drive a large passenger vehicle or heavy goods vehicle.

Supervise a learner driver (providing you have held a full license for the same type of vehicle for at least three years)

You also cannot be President at age 18.

[Xithras]

130. And those should be removed as well.

If 18 isn't old enough to be an adult, then an 18 year old shouldn't BE an adult.

If an 18 year old IS an adult, then they should have ALL the rights of an adult.


Quite frankly, if you're a decent parent, the teen years are supposed to be the years that you're preparing a kid for adulthood. If a kid hits the ground at 18 and is clueless, that's an indictment of his mother or fathers poor parenting skills. There are plenty of 18 years olds who are raised properly and are mature enough to accomplish all of the things that are currently denied to 18 year olds. It's inexcusable that law abiding and mature 18 year olds should be denied their legal rights simply because some of their peers choose not to be. The logic that justifies this discrimination is the same logic traditionally used to justify discrimination against minorities.

FWIW, this isn't an issue I particularly care about. I tend to be a bit of an absolutist on ALL of our civil rights. Equality denied to one is equality denied to all. Even when we're talking about an 18 year old and a can of beer.

[randome]

134. The laws aren't intended to sleight 'law abiding and mature' 18 year olds, though.

Age limits, like highway speed limits, are designed as a base point to accommodate 'law abiding and mature' individuals as well as those who are neither.

The State isn't going to get into the business of evaluating someone's maturity so the limit is set high enough to 'catch' the majority of individuals and low enough to make it feasible for most.

[bluestate10]

188. Our society makes alcohol abuse worse by hiding alcohol from the young.

Your prescription will be equivalent to throwing gasoline onto a fire. When I was in school, I was told that Denmark allowed children of my age of 13 to drink. I don't know whether what I was told is true, but what I do know is that alcohol is not held at the mystical level that it is here in regards to the young using alcohol. The drinking age should be lower to 18 and parents should be allowed to serve their children alcohol and be held responsible for their children's conduct.

[Heywood J]

201. Is your argument that because some are not mature enough to handle it,

then no one else should be able to enjoy it? Should that also apply to cars or sex? STDs are an immense social problem as well. Incurable gonorrhea comes to mind.

[Coyotl]

210. No, but I remember 45 years ago well enough to know.

[kdmorris]

4. You probably mean "changed back to"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._history_of_alcohol_minimum_purchase_age_by_state

[ieoeja]

147. A great link when they call Liberals "nanny-staters".

When Liberalism was at its peak in the 1970s almost every state lowered their drinking age.

When the Reagan Revolution took hold in the 1980s almost every state raised their drinking age.

[raccoon]

7. I believe that 18 year olds who're in the military can buy alcohol on base. nt

[darkangel218]

8. They are? i was not aware of that.

[NaturalHigh]

9. On some bases, yes.

It's usually at the discretion of the base commander or the MAJCOM commander. Overseas, a lot depends on local laws.

[bike man]

175. Not necessarily. Link in message text box

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/f/faqdrinking.htm

Several years ago, Congress passed a law (USC 10, Section 2683), that mandates that military bases adopt the exact same drinking age as the state (or country) that the base is located in.

The legislation allows an installation commander to adopt a lower drinking age if the installation is within 50 miles of a state or country with a lower drinking age. In that case, the Installation Commander *MAY* adopt the drinking age of that state/country.

On Installations that are within 50 miles of a border with a lower drinking age, some Installation Commanders have elected to adopt the lower drinking age, while others have not

[randome]

10. Bodies and brains are still developing at that age. So no.

[northoftheborder]

88. Absolutely true, has been studied and proved, that the young brain does not become fully adult....

....until in the 20's. Their ability to perform based on sound judgement is NOT developed, no matter how intelligent, or how they have been taught. Scientific studies of the brain have proved this. Too young to be soldiers, also, in my opinion.

[randome]

90. Shit, EVERYONE is too young to be a soldier.

[seabeyond]

11. studies show the younger a kid starts drinking the more problems in the future. i am ok with

booze at 21. if it helps only a few to wait a few more years before starting.

[darkangel218]

14. Do you honestly think 18 years old dont drink?

They do, they even forge IDs and do all kinds of stupid things to buy a beer. Maybe you should take a look at the drinking age all over the world, its 18 or lower. Restrictions don't make things better, they make it worse. They entice young people to use and abuse alcohol, just because its forbidden. How about getting out of this shell and hypocrisy. If 18 year olds are too young to drink, then don't freaking draft them in the wars! That simple!!

[seabeyond]

25. do you honestly think that is a worthwile question. how foolish is that and why would you get that

from the post you replied to.

[darkangel218]

27. Yes it is a worthwhile question. How foolish is to perpetuate hypocrisy.

Our 18 year olds are fighting and dying for whatever causes the Ones in charge decide. Let's drop the hypocrisy before we decide what's good or bad for our young ones. They matter too, you know.

[seabeyond]

33. you got from my post, i feel with the drinking age at 21... that our 18 year olds are not drinking?

there would be the foolishness. read my first post. that is not even close to what i said. not kinda, sorta or maybe.

all you did was create a strawman.

i have a line of family. my grandmother died of alcoholism. my uncle. my grandfather beat two of his children all his kids life. my mother died because of alcohol. my brother is killing himself with alcohol. he has damaged his three children. and i am doing the counselling and care for those kids. and a cousin drunk, died at 17 in a rollover. we do not even know what that side of the family would genetically die from because they die first because of alcohol.

i have two boys. we also have alcoholism on my husbands side. maternal. so both my kids can pick it up also.

do your snarky concerns of hypocrisy elsewhere. alcohol has a huge and damaging effect on human beings.

[dkf]

40. It's not the 18 year olds who are alcoholics

Europe handles alcohol a lot better than we do. A wine with dinner is the way it should be done, not this frat drinking party stuff or even bars.

[seabeyond]

46. first, that is not factually correct. i ahd been told a long time how well europe does. having

this issue being huge in my family, with two boys, and massive concern on walking this properly and not from a position of emotion, i have done a lot of research. those outcries we talk about doing so well feeding alcohol to their kids do not grow up into more responsible drinkers and their rate of alcoholism is higher than they u.s.

that is a myth, that drinking young helps toward moderation. and that is my only goal with booze, when it has to do with my teens. not an unrealistic expectation like refraining from booze.

and no. 18 yr olds are not alcoholics. they simply die and other ills because of the effects of booze. the point?

[dkf]

62. Same with 21 yr olds.

[randome]

65. But SOME 21 year olds will have matured enough -physically and mentally- to dodge that bullet.

[dkf]

75. Probably wishful thinking.

People will drink at some point and.discover if they like it or not and to what extent.

[seabeyond]

91. fact. hence, my choice to keep it at 21. nt

[JDPriestly]

115. Sorry. That is not entirely true.

Mexico leads the world in deaths from liver disease. We are second -- partly because of our horrible health care system.

But third is Germany. Not that far from us.

After a big drop in the number of deaths due to liver disease, Brazil follows as number four.

The big surprise for me is that France is 101st. They drink wine with meals a lot.

Of course, alcohol is only one factor in liver disease. The Germans and we Americans eat a lot of animal fats too.

Here are the statistics.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/mor_alc_liv_dis-mortality-alcoholic-liver-disease

But, are deaths due to liver disease the measure?

The French government has been urged in a report to "snap out of its state of national denial" and take urgent steps to "denormalise drinking".

Hervé Chabalier, a leading journalist and former alcoholic who wrote the report, said: "In this country we have always, culturally, looked at alcohol through a magnifying glass: we just see the good side, never the fact that ... drink is the third greatest cause of avoidable deaths in France."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/25/france.jonhenley

That article is dated 2005.

One advantage of having no drinking age limit at all is that young teenagers begin to drink with their parents. It isn't just something they do with their equally immature buddies.

Still, personally, I would prefer we didn't have any alcoholic drinks at all. But that's just my personal preference. And I don't think I should impose it on others.

[dkf]

119. Well by Europe I meant France :)

I enjoy a wine with dinner, and I think it adds to enjoyment of food. Its too bad that isn't the tradition we have. If anything the shot and peer pressure mentality is what hurts an 18 year old. But that still exists at 21 so unless you wait til kids aren't hanging out with each other, increasing the age from 18 to 21 isn't a whole lot of difference.

[darkangel218]

48. "alcohol has a huge and damaging effect on human beings."

So does banning it. Everything done in excess is bad. If I decide I'm going to eat half pound of ice cream a day, sooner or later it will get me sick or even kill me. Banning 18 year olds from having a beer is not the key to our problems. How about teaching our young ones whats goof for then and what isn't? Banning alcohol its only.making them getting it anyway and most likely abusing it, since its illegal, and maybe " won't have the chance to get it again".

[seabeyond]

56. banning? why, when we talk harms do the pro whatever resort to ban. no ban. and i am done

with this conversation. i have no desire to justify my position or even discuss it. you asked a question. i gave my opinion. wont be changed. nor will yours. a vote goes up? i will vote 21. that simple

[darkangel218]

70. Good for you. I bet if there was ever a referendum, you'd be in minority.

[bike man]

169. Your last line is exactly correct. For many people "one drink is one too many,

all of them is not enough."


I've learned that many people with a drinking problem

think about drinking all day at work,

state that they *need* a drink to relax/unwind/what-have you rather than *want* a drink,

will start numerous conversations (or even posts on forums) with alcohol as the topic,

often will state they "can stop drinking any time they want to" but never get around to wanting to

will attempt to justify their drinking behavior in multiple ways (hard day, onerous boss, etc.)

And then deny that alcohol is a big part of their lives and may even be causing them problems.

edited to clarify subject line

[aquart]

50. Well, the dead ones did.

And the friends in the car with them.

[darkangel218]

59. Has DUI stopped since changing the age from 21 to 18??

Lol

[dsc]

133. It has reduced tremedously

I don't think the age gets all the credit but it is an undeniable fact that drunk driving deaths and drunk driving accidents have dropped precipitously in terms of rate per mile driven since the mid 1980's when the drinking age was raised.

[ieoeja]

156. Interviewed late 80s with an insurance lobby.

"90% of our effort goes into combating drunk driving, can you guess why?"

"Because it lowers your costs?"

"Nope. Only 5% of traffic fatalities are definitely linked to drunk driving. Our statisticians believe that could be as much as double. But if we take any accident where alcohol was involved and simply assume drinking was at fault, we can bump that number up to 50% of all fatalities."

"If you're not saving costs, why do it?"

"Increased revenue. The more people hit with DUI, the more who have to buy high option insurance. Sure, the good insurance companies refuse to give them insurance at all. But those companies actually own the high option insurance companies. So they aren't really losing anything.

"Plus the demonization of drunk driving allows us to charge more for higher option insurance. A decade ago we would have gotten raked over the coals for the rates we charge today. Now everybody sees it as part of the punishment drunk drivers deserve. They see it as a fine. We just get to keep their fine!"


Paraphrased conversation obviously. But it gets the gist. The 5-10% versus 50% thing really surprised me.


And, of course, I do not think it is in any way coincidental that MADDness and devestation of the Democratic Party in the rural areas occurred together. When/where I grew up a lot of political discussion got done in the taverns. Today, the majority of those are closed. A lot more public socialization is now centered on church. Because in the rural areas there is no public transportation or taxis, etc. My father who had been involved on the edge of the political scene his whole life became a virtual shut-in.

No way was he going to the church. And he could no longer pop out to the tavern in the evening except when he could make arrangements for special occasions. It's not like he can just pick up the phone on a whim and easily find somebody who is going on a 20 mile round trip to take him to the bar then repeat the trip a couple hours later to return him home.

I assume Reagan started his War on Alcohol because he was, well, Reagan. But sometimes he was pretty shrewd. He predicted cutting taxes at the Federal level would destroy the Democratic stranglehold on local/state politics. Down ticket Dems would get the blame for either cutting services (as Reagan's big cuts were to block grants given to local government) or raising taxes.

He was proven right about that. Maybe he also realized the War on Alcohol would give rise to a more staid, insular and Conservative mindset in rural areas.

[aquart]

160. No. Changing the age from 21 to 18 always increases it.

But why anyone thinks drunk driving is worth an LOL is beyond me.

And yes, some idiot teenager with a half-grown brain will always manage to get some garbage and then go for a drive. We mop 'em up on Long Island all the time.

BUT WE MOP UP LESS BLOOD AND FEWER CORPSES SINCE WE WENT BACK TO 21.

[laundry_queen]

206. And outright prohibition of alcohol would probably decrease DUI further

but is that a good reason to ban alcohol for everyone?

The drinking age is 18 where I am. I'm of the mind that if you are deemed an adult at 18, then you should be allowed all the responsibilities and privileges of an adult. If you think that's too young, then EVERYTHING should be changed to 21 - voting, driving, etc. I'm not a fan of 'staggered entry' into adulthood as bureaucrats deem it.

[Lizzie Poppet]

51. As evidenced by the medical problems and low test scores of European children.

Oh, wait...

[seabeyond]

60. my brother is a genius. test easy. like 186. fuckin genius. he is still killing himself with alcohol

and made his kids life hell.

sheeeeit, that whole line of family that kills themselves thru alcohol are genius. so really, what? so.

[darkangel218]

72. So maybe its a genetic problem?

[seabeyond]

94. there really is no if ands or buts about if. of course it is. nt

[randome]

96. So I guess the implication is that you and yours don't count.

Not sure how much more you need to explain in order to get your point across.

[seabeyond]

98. lol. i am done. another thing i learned well, living among alcoholics especially talking booze. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

173. this is confounded with many other things, including personality

the kind of kid that would break a law is different from one who wouldn't

a cross cultural perspective would be more accurate at separating this confound

[bowens43]

12. I disagree.

18 year olds are to immature to handle alcohol in a responsible manner.

It seems kind of silly to me to suggest that since they can fight wars they should be able to drink. What you should be doing is arguing that they're too you to go to war.

If most of the world jumped off a bridge would you.....?

[darkangel218]

16. Immature to handle alcohol but mature enough to die on the battle field.

O...k.

[joeglow3]

97. That breeze you felt was his comment flying over your head

I really think you are trying to be obtuse.

[RedstDem]

132. +1

18 year old's are too immature to go war.

[Go Vols]

15. 18 was legal drinking age

when I was 18.Ronnie Raygun threatened to withhold Fed $$$ if states didn't jump it to 21.

[sadbear]

18. I spring breaked in New Orleans back in '95 when both I and the drinking age were 18.

When I went back two years later, I was 20 and the drinking age was 21. Bummer!

But do you think that stopped me?

[Go Vols]

26. La. had a legal loophole

that allowed until '95 to change.But 18 yr olds can still drink in bars with a parent or guardian in New Orleans,maybe the whole state.
I know because my 18 year old went into bars with me a few years back while there.

[Mariana]

106. Some states allow minors, even those under 18

to drink if their parent or guardian is with them. And some prohibit everyone under 21 from drinking under any circumstances. Every states has its own variations, but there are a lot of exceptions to the general "no drinking under age 21" principle.

[darkangel218]

19. Ahh okay, so Ronnie was the one who upped the age.

Why am I not surprised.

[closeupready]

39. Yes, federal highway funds.

Part of an anti-drunk driving campaign spearheaded by Mothers Against Drunk Driving.

I think the anti-drunk driving campaign was necessary and good, but raising the drinking age was probably not the best way to get there.

[sadbear]

17. 18 year-olds are going to get alcohol if they want.

Lawyers makes a killing (especially in college towns like mine) defending MIP's.

If we could just remove this horrible, almost arbitrarily-set drinking age, perhaps more parents would teach their children how to enjoy alcohol responsibly. As it is, a lot of parents, too, think young people should wait until they are "legal" before they start drinking alcohol.

Me, I'm going to start offering my children beer and wine at the dinner table (in appropriate amounts, of course) when they graduate high school. Heck, maybe even sooner if they demonstrate tremendous responsibility at a younger age. That way, when they get to college, drinking alcohol won't be a novel thing, and perhaps they'll avoid binge drinking, drinking and driving, and other irresponsible behavior.

Proper parent modelling is the key.

[darkangel218]

21. +1000

You said everything that had to be said.

[liberal_at_heart]

63. they can also get meth or cocaine if they want to.

I don't have a problem with a parent offering an 18 year old a glass of wine with dinner, but let's face it, the majority of teenagers don't drink for the taste. They drink to get drunk, to dance, to party, to have fun. That very often ends in disaster such as drinking and driving, rape, alcohol poisoning, domestic abuse and other problems.

[darkangel218]

67. And how good has this law worked so far?

Do you know of anyone in college who hasn't gone binge drinking because its illegal? What I'm against is the hypocrisy. Either consider 18 old kids and stop drafting them in military and wars, or raise the legal drinking age.

[randome]

73. NO law prevents ANYONE from doing ANYTHING.

But the majority of people do what they can to avoid breaking the law. Therefore, laws in general work.

[darkangel218]

74. Not when it comes to drinking alcohol.

If you've even lived in a college dorm you would know. All this law does is make money for cities and lawyers.

[randome]

77. Maybe you're judging college dorm life by the likes of 'Animal House'?

Sure, some college kids will drink flagrantly and often enough they can assume the mantle of alcoholic by the age of 21. But many are still 'cowed' by the law -as is the purpose of all laws- and will not drink in excess because they know it's illegal.

It doesn't PREVENT someone from drinking but it forces a re-think of the consequences for many.

[darkangel218]

79. Ive lived in one in my 20s and i judge by what i saw.

[plcdude]

105. Some on going research

in the area of college students and alcohol and other drugs. http://core.siu.edu/results.html
I think you will find it remarkable.

[sadbear]

164. I live in a public university college town in Texas and work on campus.

No, it's not quite Animal House (that was set in the early 60's), but it can sometimes get pretty damn close.

And I'm not saying it's a problem. They're mostly responsible about, although I have seen a few eyebrows go missing on occasion. Most of these kids have earned the right to consume alcohol. They shouldn't have to go to court for it.

[sadbear]

87. Yes, doing those things are a part of becoming a adult.

Experiences are important, even bad ones. If we don't try to keep alcohol from them, but rather show them how to drink responsibly (even to get drunk responsibly), perhaps we can lessen the disasters. I think making alcohol less prohibited is a good thing. Maybe it's not the best analogy, but when people try to keep kids from reading certain books and material, what are kids going to do? Make it openly available to them and they're naturally less interested in it. (I stopped drinking irresponsibly when I turned 21. Maybe I'm just speaking from personal experience though.)

[randome]

89. We can't pass a law that makes parents show their kids anything.

But I agree with you about being upfront with kids about all of it, alcohol, drugs, sex, etc. My daughters have good heads on their shoulders regarding all of these. They're fifteen. I even tell them they WILL want to experiment at least with alcohol at some time and that getting drunk isn't the worst thing that can happen to them so long as they take the right precautions.

[sadbear]

92. I'm not suggesting any new laws.

And really, there's nothing to keep parents from providing alcohol to their own children before they're 21. Yeah, and I know there are some real shitty parents, but I do believe, to a certain extent, the drinking age laws gives parents an excuse for not teaching their children about alcohol.

Our parents try to teach us all kinds of things about becoming adult, but it seems most would prefer just to turn us loose on alcohol once we turn 21 instead of teaching us how to handle it before we start using it.

[Mariana]

108. You may be legally allowed to give your kids alchohol.

Many states permit minors to drink if their parent or guardian is with them. Some don't allow it in public, but they can drink at home with your permission. It's worth looking up your own state's law to see exactly what it says about that.

[xmas74]

180. I've allowed my child the occasional sip

from my wine glass. She'll accept it, take a sip and then doesn't want any more.

We try to treat it as not such a big deal. I want her to learn that you can drink just one drink and then stop.

[sadbear]

181. I totally agree with this approach.

Yes, they are going to push the envelope when the time comes, but that's not the point.

Providing guidance, IMO, is probably more helpful than anything else.

[Dawgs]

20. Sorry, but this is the LEAST of our problems. n/t

[darkangel218]

23. Its one of our problems.

No problem is too small not to address. I bet our young men and women would agree.

[Dawgs]

100. You're wrong? n/t

[cherokeeprogressive]

22. Let them drink on base in the E club.

Problem solved.

[Paladin]

24. Why? Because There Aren't Enough Alcohol-Related Deaths And Injuries Already?

We tried that drinking-at-18 thing in Texas decades ago, and it was an abject failure. And that "Old Enough To Fight/Old Enough To Drink" thing isn't nearly as persuasive as it used to be, absent a military draft. How about we concentrate on existing social problems before we create another one?

[darkangel218]

30. Whats the difference between 18 and 21??

Are 18y olds not mature enough to be drafted in wars?? Then why is it mandatory sign up for drafting at 18??

[Lex]

58. Change age to go to war to 21.

Those 2 years are crucial years in maturing.

[NCTraveler]

29. How about you make the argument that the age to.....

join the military should be raised to 21. I really don't see how the two are linked, yet throughout the thread you keep linking the two. If you are going to link the two, I believe it would be a morally superior argument to state the opposite. You can drink at 21, so why should that not be the age that one can fight in a war. Why send developing minds to war or make it easier for them to buy alcohol?

[darkangel218]

34. Maybe i shouldve.

But I do think 18 year olds are old enough to handle a war. I grew up in Europe. And Europe and the rest of the World thinks its ok to have a beer at 18. I didnt even drink any alcohol until 23 or so because I had no desire to. How about leave it up to our citizens to decide when or if they want to consume alcohol. We can vote, we can die in wars, but we can't have a beer. What a joke.

[NCTraveler]

43. "How about leave it up to our citizens to decide when or if they want to consume alcohol."

1) Because that is a very bad idea.
2) Because I am not a libertarian.

[darkangel218]

53. So wanting this hypocrisy to end makes.me a libertarian? lmao!!!!

[NCTraveler]

71. "So wanting this hypocrisy to end makes.me a libertarian? lmao!!!!"

No. But coming a step closer to eliminating the age for drug use is a libertarian idea. And once again, how in the world are the two connected. Why aren't you trying to raise the driving age to 18, or even 21. How about we make the driving age, age to go to war, and drinking age to 21. You see, for some reason your claim of hypocrisy isn't really about hypocrisy at all. It is just about lowering the drinking age. I think we should also raise the age to buy cigarettes to 21. You can't drink until 21, so why can you buy cigarettes at 21.

Drinking age:21
Smoking age: 21
Going to war: 21
Driving: 21

There. All you your perceived hypocrisy is gone. Even though none of them are related in any way at all.

[darkangel218]

76. Im all for that.

But its not gonna happen. The government needs its war machine all young and fresh.

[Heywood J]

203. Allowing citizens to decide on issues relating to their own bodies is a bad idea?

No, definitely not a libertarian. Let me show you something:

43. "How about leave it up to our citizens to decide when or if they want to consume alcohol have an abortion."

1) Because that is a very bad idea.
2) Because I am not a libertarian.

[NCTraveler]

213. I hope you can see the difference between regulating toxins...

and abortions. I am somewhat amazed at your reply. Equating the regulation of harmful intoxicants to an abortion. You wanted to show something, and you did. Just not what you wanted.

[Heywood J]

214. Your harmful toxin, my occasional way to relax after a shitty day at work.

Must be nice to live in such a black-and-white world. I showed you that some people don't live the same way you do and hold the exact same thoughts you do.

[NCTraveler]

216. You compared your way to relax after a shitty day at work....

to abortion regulation. Now, your way to relax after a shitty day at wok, and abortions, has become an argument to lower the drinking age.

[liberal_at_heart]

41. I agree.

I don't think 18 yr olds should drink or go to war. The part of the brain that can think through an action, through all the possible scenarios, to its logical conclusion is not fully developed yet at 18.

[actslikeacarrot]

31. either that or raise the age....

....of servicemembers legally going overseas to 21. To me its hypocritical to have a different age for both.

[darkangel218]

35. Exactly. nt

[closeupready]

36. I agree. A glass of wine or a beer with a meal is essential, IMO.

Though I won't touch alcohol if I'm driving, wine and beer can be paired well with meals, and there seems to be a lot of research showing it can have health benefits.

There are obviously health drawbacks, as well.

But there are health drawbacks with war, too, and yet off we send our boys and girls.

[Crepuscular]

45. How about

How about we leave it up to the individual states to determine their legal drinking age instead of having a Federal mandate?

[darkangel218]

49. Because you know what the conservative sates would do. nt

[Crepuscular]

81. What?

Leave the age at what the current Federal law is? At least the states who chose to do so could then lower the age if that was the will of the electorate.

[darkangel218]

83. Conservative states would never lower the age and you know it.

[Crepuscular]

93. I don't know

I don't know that to be the case but let's say it is, if the age was not lowered then it would be no different then the existing status quo under Federal law, so what's the diff?

I'm not sure that drinking age is a partisan issue, the efforts that I've seen to raise the drinking age were based on public safety issues (groups like MADD, etc.), not based on political ideology.

[xmas74]

183. I don't know about that.

There's a lot of good old boy, slapping on the back while giving your kid a sixer, kind of stuff going on in the conservative states.

I lived in Missouri, which tends to be more socially conservative, and much of the alcohol we had in high school came from a parent or from an athlete who was given it by a booster or someone with alumni.

If the lawmakers decide the law it wouldn't change. If the voting public gets to vote I could absolutely see the age lowered to 19.

[randome]

52. That never worked well in the past.

It was 21 in Missouri and 18 in Illinois when I was growing up. Simple to drive across the bridge and buy booze.

Adolescence sometimes lasts until 20 or so. Best to have an age where 'late bloomers' are mentally and physically adult.

[Crepuscular]

78. Worked fine for me

It was 21 in the state I grew up in and 18 in the state I went to school in, didn't have a problem with there being different laws. Not that the 21 year old age restriction stopped 18, 19 & 20 year olds from drinking, at least not in my experience.

[randome]

86. It didn't stop me, either.

Back in my day, we would drink until we passed out then the park mounties would come by around 1 am, wake us up and tell us to go home.

But having the age set at 21 stopped SOME people from at least over-consumption, and some others from drinking at all so in general I think it was a good idea.

If 18 was the age when I was growing up, I likely would have been drunk a lot more often. As it is, I feel like I dodged a bullet back then.

[xmas74]

184. I grew up in Missouri.

21 never stopped us, not once. And if you were an athlete or from certain families you didn't even have to worry about a DWI-the cops would just give the kid a ride home with a strict lecture and then tell his parents. Even after a few friends were in a horrific accident (one killed on scene, one paralyzed ) the driver, a star football player, wasn't even charged. (And yes, it happened. I was supposed to be in the car with them that night but got into a fight with someone at the last minute and didn't go. That stays with me to this very day.)

Small towns let lots of stuff go. I saw it as a high school kid and then I saw it later on when I worked in a police department. The ones they regularly busted were the college kids, as a way of "teaching them a lesson." What it really was about was discriminating against the college kids, especially the young men. They will always be prosecuted for things that "townies" would be ignored for doing.

[laundry_queen]

207. And punish those that are 'early' to mature?

My body was at my full grown adult height and was 100% physically mature at age 12. I was told by many an adult I was extremely mature for my age. All my friends were 2-4 years older than me. I'm glad our drinking age, where I am, was 18. By then, I was in a longterm common-law relationship with the man I would eventually marry (and then divorce 15 years later, but that's neither here nor there and had nothing to do with maturity) and had a full time job and paid all my own bills and I voted. I was an adult in every way. It seems completely ridiculous to me that I shouldn't have been drinking at that age because somewhere there are some immature college students.

I disagree with catering to the lowest common denominator.

[randome]

209. All laws cater to the lowest common denominator. Speed limits are a good example.

The State cannot determine your maturity level. Nor should it. Therefore the dividing line is made high enough to 'catch' the majority of adolescents but low enough it doesn't cause societal upheaval.

It's always a balancing act.

[laundry_queen]

212. Oh yes, the societal upheaval

where I am is abhorrent. All those 18 year olds driving drunk all over the place! 'Cause they don't do it when they are 17, and they SURE don't do it when they are 21~ How DOES my province function! Hyperbole much?

When I was a teen, it was my parents' generation that drove drunk. *WE* (the 18 year olds) were educated about drunk driving in school and always had designated drivers.

How about the societal upheaval when underage drinkers get caught and end up with a record and therefore a more difficult time getting a job? I think if you compare the 2 it would be a wash.


I disagree about speed limits. Some people can't drive safely at slower speeds, some are good at driving at fast speeds, so it's not about the lowest common denominator - that's not how limits are deteremined. The speed limit is often subjective, not based on fact (according to people I knew who work in that part of gov't) but on perception or public pressure. A lot of these laws about prohibition weren't based in fact, but in the puritan agenda of the Reagan republicans.

[Lex]

55. Raise the age to go to war to 21.

Better plan.

[Flying Squirrel]

199. +10000000000000000000000000000000 n/t

[kiva]

57. I agree.

But then, I strongly believe that we, as a country, have infantalized our youth to the point that we are calling 25 year old men 'boys' and referring to college women as 'girls.' As long as we choose to keep moving that bar of adulthood further and further, young people will never be taken seriously.

[darkangel218]

64. +1000

[pipi_k]

125. This will probably

piss off some people, but from where I sit...at 60 years old...people younger than 25 are kids.

It's an exception when I come across someone that age who has his/her shit together.

[Zoeisright]

140. The part of your brain that helps you understand the consequences of your actions

is not fully developed until you are 25 years old. There's a reason that car insurance rates are highest for men below 25 years old.

http://www.hhs.gov/opa/familylife/tech_assistance/etraining/adolescent_brain/Development/prefrontal_cortex/

[kiva]

141. Pushing 60 here too,

so I understand that as individuals we may well see people that are a couple of generations younger than we are as kids - I do that too; but the only way most people get their shit together is to be given the combination of responsibilities and rewards that encourage them to do that.

I think it's important that society as a whole expect that young people are adults and should be capable of adult choices, and in exchange give them the respect we give adults.

[pipi_k]

197. Oh, I agree about

giving them responsibility.

But it has to be a gradual thing.

My mom made the huge mistake of keeping me sheltered and "protected" for the first 17 years of my life, then basically turned me loose on the world after that with absolutely no training whatsoever.

I was lost and didn't really grow up till I hit about 40 or so.

[datasuspect]

61. they need to raise the BAC for DUI

too.

bunch of nanny state do gooders.

[darkangel218]

80. do gooders?

More like piggy bank gooders.

[Nye Bevan]

103. That's about one of the most politically incorrect things you can say,

but I agree. MADD is like a modern-day temperance society.

[bamacrat]

69. Or maybe raise the military age to 21...

If you can do one, you should be able to do the other. But, I wonder if for mental health reasons alone, having to wait to 21 to go to war could be a good thing. Yes at 18 you are an "adult" but make really poor decisions, your brain may have just become "fully developed" but many 18 y/o have not completed their cranial rectal extraction....nor have some 30 year olds, but they have little excuse. I know some people go in to the military straight out of high school because they have few other options. While that may not eliminate PTSD, Abu Graibs or other shit for brains from doing fucked up stuff, it could help. The only people other than the military that really thinks an 18 year old is an adult is an 18 year old.

[lolly]

84. I would be in favor of a graduated approach

At one time in the UK (not sure if laws have changed or not) it was legal for older teenagers (16 or 17?) to have beer or wine if they ordered it in an eating establishment with a meal. It may have been limited to 2 drinks, not sure.

This makes a lot of sense to me in several ways.

Helps show kids that alcohol can be enjoyed in moderation as part of social activities instead of having drinking as the main event.

Kids who drink can do so in public, around adults.

It might discourage the kind of binge drinking that results in all kinds of disasters. When alcohol is completely illegal, teens tend to drink away from adults, and to drink as much as possible while they have the chance.

OTOH, having a good public transportation system would help too. I wish teens didn't have to drive to get to social events.

[darkangel218]

85. +1 million

[polly7]

99. I'll try this again ..

excuse my brain freeze. As someone who's responded to many alcohol-related MVA's and other calls, I believe three extra years for a child to mature mentally and emotionally and be more able to make better judgments is a great thing. These kids dying on the roads are babies and haven't even begun to experience life. No doubt 18 y/o's still drink and do really stupid things regardless if it's legal or not, but personally, I don't see the benefit of making it easier.

I agree that 18 is too young to be sent off to kill and die in war.

[Crepuscular]

126. Don't you think

Don't you think it's a little odd that 18 year old's can legally get married, have babies and become parents yet it's illegal for them to have a glass of wine with dinner in their own home? They are not children or kids, at 18 they are adults. My 17 year old son is far more mentally and emotionally mature than many 25 year olds that I have met, age, in and of itself is not the determining factor.

[polly7]

135. It does seem a little odd,

my pov comes from alcohol in excess, clouding judgement and leading to seriously harmful decisions. Some 17 y/o's may be more mentally and emotionally mature - I agree on that - but, most haven't had a chance to experience life independently enough to fully understand how making one bad decision can completely destroy lives.

[leftyohiolib]

101. 18 YEAR OLDS SHOULDNT BE GOING TO WARS EITHER

[Orsino]

110. +1 By the way.

If I were going to ask someone to risk his life as a fucking career, especially at the behest of war profiteers, I hope I wouldn't stop him from having a drink. He'd need it at least as much as I ever would.

[randome]

112. Because you've fallen under the marketing delusion that alcohol somehow makes one stronger.

It doesn't.

[Orsino]

128. Nope.

But it's one of the few methods to relive pain and monotony. We take so much from our troops that we ought not to stand in their way.

[Nye Bevan]

102. Absolutely. And no 20 year old refrains ftom drinking because of the law.

20-year olds still drink, but hidden out of sight.

[still_one]

104. That was the argument for voting, "you're old enough to kill, but not for voting"

Of course today the argument is more that you are tried as an adult but cannot drink

Agreed

[JDPriestly]

107. Before we do it, we should consult with neuroscientists.

There is evidence that drinking alcohol at certain stages of brain development can detrimentally affect that development. There is research on this, and that should determine what we do about the drinking age. Alcohol abuse levels among 18-21 year-olds should also be considered.

Why not be objective about the issue?

I don't like alcohol, but I think we should decide how to handle this intelligently, not just emotionally.

One problem is that young people, 18-year-olds are more susceptible to peer pressure than people a little older than that. If the other 18-year-olds in your crowd are getting drunk on the weekends and not studying for exams or doing other positive things, then it's more likely you will go along with them. It gets easier to say no to your friends when you get a few years older. That is one argument against raising the age.

The beer, wine and bar industries would, of course, love to see a lower drinking age.

[AngryAmish]

113. If we let them vote then they should be able to drink

Letting under 21s vote is another matter. But what right do we have to deny some citizens rights that others have also? Constitutionally the under 21 ban is legit, but if the default position is that citizens get to do whatever they want unless it hurts someone then they should be able to drink when they get full rights under the law.

Not letting under 21s drink because some of them will drink and drive is the same argument that since some black people are criminals we should treat all black people as criminals.

[randome]

114. See post #111.

Or I could copy and paste.

At 21, you can:
Apply to adopt a child.

Gamble.

Go on a cruise unsupervised.

Rent a car.

Hold an airline transport pilot's license for an airplane, helicopter.

Apply for a provisional license to drive a large passenger vehicle or heavy goods vehicle.

Supervise a learner driver (providing you have held a full license for the same type of vehicle for at least three years)

In some states, you cannot marry without parent(s)' permission until 21.

You also cannot be President at age 18.

[KamaAina]

117. Some agencies will not rent a car to anyone under 25!

[randome]

118. Yes, I saw that, too!

[Go Vols]

123. But you can be charged as an adult in a crime

at 12 and go to prison.

[randome]

124. I think 99% of us would agree that's fucked up.

[NYC Liberal]

116. Make it 19 like it is in Ontario and some other places.

There are many 18 year-olds still in high school, and even those that aren't are just starting college and are more like teenagers than adults.

At 19 they've likely had a year in college and have been living on their own in the "real world" (sort of) for a bit. That is a good time to allow legal drinking.

[Arugula Latte]

120. I agree wholeheartedly. And I have two teenagers.

The prohibition mentality with alcohol just leads to "the forbidden fruit" appeal and binge drinking. I like the European approach better -- incorporate wine as a nice social part of dinner, learn your limits, learn to be moderate with drinking. I'd rather my kids were armed with information and familiarity with the effects of alcohol than spend their time and energy trying to acquire it illegally in college and get as shitfaced as possible in the shortest amount of time possible, like we did in the 80s.

[xmas74]

186. this

energy trying to acquire it illegally in college and get as shitfaced as possible in the shortest amount of time possible, like we did in the 80s

That's where lots of Mad Dog, Cisco, and Golden Grain came into the picture for most of the people I knew. Cheap and got people drunk fast. Golden Grain and grape Kool-aid was the drink of choice throughout much of high school while Strawberry Hill was a step up-a "date drink", if you will, along with Bartles and James.

[KamaAina]

121. At the height of the MADD frenzy in the early '80s, there were calls to raise the age to 25!

Next stop, Prohibition.

[raccoon]

122. You were born in the wrong generation, Dark. nt

[duffyduff]

129. Many 18-year-olds are still in high school.

I can see the problem right there.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

136. When I was 15 and went to high school for a year in France

back in 1965, they served beer and wine in the school cafeteria at lunchtime. Amazingly, I never saw any kid get drunk (you'd get kicked out of school). In fact, it was a new building and when I went to the inauguration, the French socialist mayor Gaston Deferre (who later became a presidential candidate) gave a speech to all the kids and then they offered each kid two cocktails from long tables where glasses were lined up. I think I had a martini and a gin and tonic. I would often go to a sidewalk cafe on the old port in Marseille with a school friend and we'd have a couple of beers (a great tasting semi-dark French beer called Pelforth). We were 15 and it was legal to drink beer outside on the sidewalk but you had to be 21 to go inside the bar and drink. I think that because alcohol was so available and didn't represent a forbidden taboo for a rebellious young kid, I never became hooked on alcohol. In fact, now I very rarely drink.

By contrast, just before I went to France for a year I remember shopping with my mom at a store in Colorado. She was buying groceries for her brother. She told me to go grab a six-pack of beer and put it in the shopping cart. When the store owner saw me doing that he came over and chewed me out, saying it was illegal for me to even touch a container of alcohol.

[ZombieHorde]

137. The best part of the 21 drinking age is it

gives younger people a chance to experience the thrill the breaking the law while becoming intoxicated.

[Crepuscular]

145. And

acquire a criminal record and thousands of dollars in legal bills for drinking a single beer. Wouldn't want to miss that kind of thrill!

[ZombieHorde]

168. That only happens to an extreme minority.

I don't anyone who has a criminal record from underage drinking. I am not saying it doesn't happen, I am just saying that it is very rare.

However, no risk means no thrill.

No matter what we do, some will be harmed by the law or lack of law.

[Crepuscular]

174. Rare?

Go to any college town and you will find numerous freshman who get busted for minor in possession during the first week on campus. I know of one public university town that hires additional cops from surrounding areas for that first week, for the express purpose of writing minor in possession tickets by the bucketful. I believe they typically issue over 1,000 MIP citations before classes even start.

When I was a teenager (a loooong time ago) if we were caught drinking about all that would happen was the cops would make us pour out our beer and they would usually "confiscate" the remainder (to drink at their weekly poker game). At worst you might get a very minor ticket. Not that way any more, get busted today with an alcohol related offense and you are looking at some major legal fees and a misdemeanor on your record.

[Gravitycollapse]

191. I know probably 20 people who have criminal records for underage drinking.

It's not rare at all. MICs or MIPs are handed out like candy at most universities.

[Zoeisright]

138. Oh my god, not this fucking stupid shit again.

Lowering the drinking age to 18 will result in at least 1,000 more DEAD teenagers every year in this country.

READ this from the AMA and LEARN something.

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/physician-resources/public-health/promoting-healthy-lifestyles/alcohol-other-drug-abuse/facts-about-youth-alcohol/minimum-legal-drinking-age.page

[Heywood J]

204. Just like all those dead Europeans lying on the streets over there.

Perhaps instead of living in fear of what might happen to what you admit is roughly 0.02% of the teenage population, the effort should be put into educating about alcohol, instead of driving them to binge drink because they don't know when the next opportunity will come?

[randome]

205. Read what others have said about when NJ and NY 'experimented' with 18.

America is not Europe. Maybe the precise differences can't be pinpointed but it's a reality that more people would die in this country if the age was lowered back to 18.

[skorpo]

143. I remember different ages for men and women

In Illinois the drinking age was 18 for women and 21 for men. It was changed to 21 for all in 1961.

[LiberalFighter]

151. I don't believe that most 18 year olds are mature enough yet.

If parents or their guardian are present while using alcohol and it doesn't involve a party consisting mostly of kids I would support that.

[Comrade Grumpy]

153. Agreed. If you're old enough to sign contracts, vote, get married, go to war...

...you're old enough to drink. It seems elementry.

[Politicalboi]

155. I say raise it to 25 years of age

Same with going to war. Join the military at 18, but NEVER go to war till 25 unless the war comes here. Spend most of your military time in a military school to earn a degree. Raise the draft age to 24, and give them training till they reach 25 and send them off.

[name not needed]

166. So you're fine with throwing people in jail for using an intoxicating substance?

Funny, considering the weed leaf.

[Marrah_G]

159. My son is 20 and in the service

I allow him to drink in my home, as long as he stays home when he is drinking.

[bike man]

165. There have been numerous posts here on DU regarding the brain

not being completely formed until the early 20's, often in a thread where a teen-ager has committed (or has been accused of committing) a crime. There is even discussion about this in this thread - response #88 for example http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2534435

Considering that incomplete formation, further clouding that incompleteness with alcohol is imprudent at best, foolhardy at worst.

The cloudiness leads to driving while intoxicated, sometimes driving to work intoxicated (some folks use dangerous machinery at work), hand/eye coordination suffers, a feeling of immortality ensues - and all with the immature/incompletely formed brain.

Really!

IBSD

[La Lioness Priyanka]

172. i agree

[samsingh]

178. it should be 18

[Cleita]

179. As an ex-bartender I agree.

My reasoning. Yes, I agree with your points but also, when kids graduate from high school, they either go to college, to work and sometimes they get married. They enter a new social world of older adults who can drink, so they are left out on a lot of social situations because of it. I believe allowing them to drink in the company of their new friends will help them drink more responsibly as older adults tend to frown on binging, and driving while intoxicated and any other number of problem situations they can get into by drinking illegally.

When I went to college, I lived in a state where eighteen year olds could drink. When I came back to CA in the summer I couldn't. My friends were doing all the things underage drinkers do, like using phony IDs, bribing older adults into buying you alcohol and drinking in situations that weren't always safe. It was stupid.

[Jersey Devil]

182. It was 18 for a while in NJ and it didn't work

The problem was that the 18 year olds would buy package goods for those even younger, so you'd have situations where 15 year olds would be passed out drunk in the parks. The social club I belong to even banned sweet 16 parties for several years because kids were smuggling in alcohol and putting it in their soda cups. At the end of the night we'd have a bunch of drunk kids and a big mess, not to mention indignant parents who accused us of allowing it. It just wasn't worth it.

[BainsBane]

185. they changed it back to 18

because of the high death rate from 18-20 yr olds driving drunk.

You may be too young to remember this whole debate. It went from 21 to 18, and then in some states up to 19 before going back to 21 again.

[randome]

193. It doesn't matter! Free-dom! Free-dom!

[bluestate10]

187. I will go even beyond that. Any responsible parent should be allowed to have

their children served alcohol in eating places that serve alcohol. The mystique of alcohol must be removed as fast as possible. Society hide alcohol from children, but when children get their hands on alcohol, they binge drink in search of the illusionary high from alcohol. If children experience alcohol consumption under the watchful eye of responsible parents and servers, my argument is they are more likely to grow up with a measured view of alcohol.

[randome]

192. Define 'responsible parent'. Or should the State do that?

The only time we become aware of an irresponsible parent is after a tragedy. I agree in principle with you but I still think the age limit should persist.

[olddots]

190. I have seen booze ads aimed at 12 year olds for 55 years .

The State's Rights laws make perfect sense for profit ,in the 60s kids from new England went to N.Y.C to drink , it was magic you were an adult just for getting there .The voting age was 21 in America till when ??
We want everyone to act like adults when adults don't act like adults The French do something different than we do in America , we should study that .

[RedCappedBandit]

195. What *good* comes from introducing an 18 year old to the legal system

for something so minor as drinking?

Whether or not we can agree on if they *should* be drinking, they *will* be drinking. What is the benefit of ruining a kids future for getting drunk?

[Flying Squirrel]

198. How about raising the legal entry age into our armed forces to 21 instead? EO-fing-M

[demwing]

202. +100% /nt

[Tien1985]

208. The military argument is

Terrible. Considering a whole lot of people believe the age for joining the military should be upped. I'd personally like to see it raised to 25. But I don't think the drinking age should be upped. In fact I think people should be well aware of their alcohol tolerance BEFORE they ever enter the military.

Just saying.

I'm not necessarily against lowering the drinking age if a decent argument could be made for it. "I want to because I'm a grown up now!" is a poor argument. And as far as Europe, two things, there are some urban myths about Europe and drinking that need to be adressed, and two there are lots of things that work in Europe and not in the US.

I think a better argument is that the developing brain science everyone likes to trot out is far from ubiquitous. They grabbed people of a certain age and studied their brains because they figured people of that age are still growing. I bet they'd be surprised if they studied the brains of people of a multitude of ages, backgrounds and circumstances. Brain science has a LONG way to go.

At least working on arguments against the opposition would help.

Personally, I don't see a need for the age to change. The idea that all or even most people break the law to drink before 21 is stupid. I went to piblic school and a state Uni. There were plenty of us that didn't drink. If you break the law you are the one responsible for the costs and criminal record associated with it, hopefully most adults can accept that as reality.

[Niceguy1]

211. Maybe we should just ban it

Think of all the lives that would be saved.

And children's lives, too.