About this whole Catholic-trashing thing--I offer the following,

[Jackpine Radical]

stolen from another listserv.

Personally, I have an idiosyncratic set of beliefs that fit nowhere, and are tolerated in few places besides my Unitarian conclave. Perhaps as a result of this, I have no particular bone to pick with anyone over their religious beliefs except where those beliefs infringe on the right of others.

In that context, I note that most American Catholics pay little attention to Rome when it comes to matters of birth control, abortion, and homosexuality, and yet they find enough value in the Church to retain their identification with it. Historically, the Catholics have been a mainstay of political liberalism in the US.

The Church provides a very broad spectrum of political opinion, from Scalia to the Berrigans. Let's quit trashing the Berrigans, the Liberation Theologists and the Catholic Workers and recognize that they are not Opus Dei.

Nuns have been a pretty liberal force in this country, as have Catholics in general. There is a tradition of activitism--Berrigan brothers, nuns in Central America, the IrishCatholic political machine which spawned the Kennedy's, McGovern, McCarthy, etc.

The suspicion raised by Catholic tradition, which tends to be more intellectual than Protestant tradition, is nicely explored in Anti-Intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter, written about the time of Adlai Stevenson's presidency. Most intellectual movements are Catholic rather than protestant--the enlightenment, egalitarian ideas of the French Revolution, structuralism, existentialism, rennaisance, even the beginnings of the modern incarnation of feminism (e.g., Second Sex) came out of France or Italy. Anglos and Protestants are pretty much dominant in the anti-intellectual realms--e.g., they produce good economists and scientists and Wissenshaft (sp) but lousy artists and intellectuals and except for Shakespeare, indifferent novelists. The I Catholics have produced the best writers (Joyce, Cervantes, Dante and Tolstoy, rates, if you will 2 to 5) ) as well as the basis for progressive liberal thought, with the Irish dominance of politics (e.g., the Kennedy's).

Hofstadter, incidentaly, also wrote the essay Paranoid Style in American Politics which sometimes is cited today to describe the current climate.

So, despite what seems like the intransigence of the modern church, something about Catholicism has created most of the progressive Western thought, except of course for the Jews who really reinvented culture with Freud, Marx, and Einstein. They also have dominated in the arts--given the rennaissance in Italy and France, ese may seem like sweeping over generalizations, in an area where it is politically incorrect, to generalize, but anyway, that's my perception. So, liberal critiques of Catholicism seem to me pretty baseless. Its like an Italian family. The father is supposed to be charge, but matriarchy rules.

[Scuba]

1. I admit I was a poor student in high school, but how did I miss "Adlai Stevenson's presidency"?

[MineralMan]

7. That was a rather glaring error, wasn't it?

I remember Adlai Stevenson. My parents voted for him. He lost. I was a very young fellow at the time, so I don't remember much else about him. I think the essay left out a few words. I doubt that the writer really believes that he was President. However, if he does, then I'd call his entire effort questionable.

Just a writer's mistake, I think.

[Jackpine Radical]

14. I think if you're Catholic

you get access to alternate universes as part of the package deal.

[BainsBane]

74. the point is anti-Catholicism was an issue in

his presidential campaign. Obviously it's a slight of keystroke. We all make them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Highly recommended.

To me...as a daughter of the holocaust, all for,s of bigotry need to be clipped in the bud.

[Demo_Chris]

4. Then you support trashing Catholics. Good n/t

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. No, I support not trashing them

And those who do are bigots.

[Demo_Chris]

10. Oh! I get it! So Catholic bigotry is good, but anti-Catholic "bigotry" is bad

[Dragonfli]

21. Why do you insist on insulting Nadin and putting words in her mouth?

You appear to be very, very, angry and rather full of hate. Try calming down for a moment, please.

The poster you respond to in such an adversarial way has been quite consistent, "no bigotry is good", anyone who can read can see that is her position. She even qualifies that position as a daughter of the holocaust, one that knows well what the seeds of bigotry can grow, her point is clear and undeniable.

Also, most Catholics I know are not bigots, your hatred for old men in robes that live in the 14th century AND MAKE BIGOTED DECREES is justifiable, your hatred of 1.2 billion people is bigoted and nothing can justify that.

Would you have all Catholics be required to sew cross patches on there lapels? Should I sew a Pentagram to mine? We already can guess what Nadin's patch would be, and what patch shall you wear to identify you to those that would justify hatred towards your group?

You can't fight bigotry with more bigotry, just as you can not end murders by committing them yourself, if you need to hate on someone hate me, and leave Nadin out of it. I am a big Witch and can take anything you can throw at me, fuck, try to burn me if you dare, but be warned I will not be physically easy to tie to the burning post.

Just use your head and not your hatred and you will understand much more.

[Demo_Chris]

23. The poster believes no "bigotry" is acceptable...

...and uses this call as a excuse to curb criticism of one of the most bigoted, depraved, and downright evil organizations on the planet.

I haven't started even a single thread on this Church, but I will damn sure respond to these threads defending it. I could spend the next five hours listing and providing links to the Catholic Church's recent modern human rights violations -- everything from mass torture, wholesale sexual abuse, forced castration, slavery, the abuse and murder of many tens-of-thousands -- so many that you would need a calculator to add the total. I could list the abhorrent positions they have staked out on the issues that are dear to many of us here as liberals. I could do all that...

And the defenders of this Church would ignore everything I wrote and cry that I was picking on them. As I discovered in another thread when I did something similar.

The problem in their minds is not that the Catholic Church kept women as slaves, or used boiling water to torture orphans, or castrated boys who reported their sexual abuse... no, the problem is that meanies like me keep pointing it out and asking why in the hell are they giving their money and support to these monsters. And that's what this entire sub-thread is about. It is an effort to silence this criticism by labeling it hateful and insensitive and bigotry.

I say that's BS. It's not bigotry to stand up to evil and call it what it is. I will stand proudly with the VICTIMS. They deserve to be heard.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Who is defending the hierarchy?

Reading comp is truly your friend.

[Demo_Chris]

43. Let's review

You said:

"To me... all forms of bigotry need to be clipped in the bud."

and:

"I support not trashing them (the church) and those who do are bigots."


It seems you feel it is unacceptable to criticize the Catholic Church. Their sadistic ghoulish behavior and overt hatred and bigotry is simply NOT subject to criticism, and anyone who brings this up you label a bigot. And now you ask:

"Who is defending the hierarchy?"

The answer, my friend, is YOU. If you label those who criticize the church as bigots and attempt to silence them, then what else would you call it?

[Dragonfli]

44. Piss poor review, intentionally misleading in fact

you:Then you support trashing Catholics. Good

you are nothing more than a liar. You were advocating hatred towards Catholics, not the Vatican.
Now you are lying because someone didn't agree with you that Catholics should be hated.

It is the way you appear to think that all Catholics are evildoers or something that makes you a bigot, go to your nearest RC church, ask someone coming out if they would like to rape a child, I know you think the random Catholic would say, "of course", but I can guarantee you that random person would share, and in fact nearly all share, our disgust with such a thing.

They want it to stop as well, they even appear to be completely ignoring the vatican these days because they don't like that shit anymore than we do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

46. Piss poor understanding of the English language

And misleading to boot.

[Dragonfli]

37. I can see that you blame the many for the crimes of the few,

to you all Catholics support what very few do. Where I live the only people helping the poor and disenfranchised in any serious way are those you would deny exist, Were it not for these people I would have been homeless and would have succumbed to suicide just a couple years ago.

I am Ill and can not expect to live to anywhere near retirement age, this affected my ability to work three years ago. Liberals such as yourself that spend their energy blindly seeking revenge against a monolithic borg like enemy that doesn't exist, didn't lift a finger to help me or those I became familiar with in my new impoverished state, hate does not heal and healers do not hate, liberals like you ignore our poverty , our suicides and the difficulty even finding shelter, to you we do not exist. You have a war to fight and you think that every member of whatever group you hate are not only all the same, but you also decree them evil. Get the fuck over yourself, I grew up in a Catholic neighborhood and your cartoon caricature of them is absurd and false. I grew up where these Catholics were always lending a hand and at the time of my youth they were among the many on the front lines on behalf of civil liberties.

Social services do every thing they can to keep you from getting help, I spent 9 months trying to get medicaid benefits that I was by their own rules entitled to, It was when I was facing eviction, in need of medical help for a serious permanent illness and had grow suicidal that I remembered the Catholic Charities place around the corner from where I grew up. To my amazement within minutes I had a store voucher to get supplies to live on, a worker assigned as an advocate to navigate Social Services and within a month, I had my back rent paid, my gas turned back on, foodstamps and medicaid. I also received counselling and was able to see a psychologist to help with my depression, I am no longer suicidal, I am not on the streets and was accepted as a fucking pagan by these monsters of yours, the real Catholic church to me brings to mind nuns on a bus, and people that help the poor that the great suburban liberals only offer pity and condescension to.

But please by all means, fuck the poor and fuck me, you are consumed with hatred of people you apparently do not even care to know, you have a caricature you use for all of them, and you create your mascot of hatred out of the worst of the worst that are so rare that I, who grew up in a neighborhood of thousands of Catholics have never even seen ONE that would match your APB.

http://www.ccwny.org/
these folks are why I am still alive, and they never once tried to proselytize or judge a professed Witch that walked into their office wearing a pent and a few tears,

so... Fuck you, you hateful evil fucking uninformed asshole. I don't carer much for bigots that place entire groups of people into a cardboard caricature to be used as a focus to enjoy the feeling of hatred that drives them rather than compassion. I am looking forward to hearing what all pagans are like from you, and all jews, and all bums that live on the street, you are so good at knowing all about people you don't feel you even have to meet to judge.

You must be the smartest person you know.

[union_maid]

70. I've been saying exactly this in a couple of threads

and it's been pretty much ignored. I was speaking about what I've seen, but you're telling what you've lived. Maybe someone will listen to you.

[Dragonfli]

73. Doubtful, one thing I have learned is hatred deafens the mind and eats the soul /nt

[Tumbulu]

75. Thank you for your post

this is the world of Catholics that I know. And so true about these people who hate. It gets nowhere but worse.

I am glad that you got help. I am sorry that you suffered so much.

[JDPriestly]

82. Catholic Charities is wonderful. Some Protestant churches are

equally generous. The Salvation Army is one. Methodists are great in terms of social work.

No church has a monopoly on social projects but Catholics really do a lot. That's partly because of the size of the Church and its ways to raise money as well as its historical wealth. The Church used to own a lot of land in Europe. Still does own some in some European countries.

[Dragonfli]

104. I don't doubt it for a second, my late wife's business partner grew up

the daughter of a methodist minister, she showed us a notebook of his sermons once, he appeared to focus on love and caring for those that needed caring for, I never met him as I saw this years after his death, but admired the spirit behind the notes he left behind and admired him for teaching love.

There are some fundamentalist Christians that spout some very nasty stuff, in my experience this branch puts a great deal of stock in John Calvin, my experience with these evangelicals is rather limited, but the few I met had some odd beliefs (odd that is for those that claim to learn from Christ's teachings). Beliefs such as the wealthy are wealthy due to God's blessings and were therefore his favorites, and the poor were being punished by God and should be kept at a distance. Something about "predestination" and "the elect", and only grace counts to God and works were a waste of time, I sure hope these people are outliers, they are rare here.

People around Buffalo are mostly RC or baptist, the kind of baptists that love to sing and rejoice in their beliefs, they are very delightful, they do what they can but they usually have the resources of only their church's congregation, I think they get to choose their decons and such, unfortunately like most of us in the City they are poor.

There are many Synagogues that are either keeping to themselves or doing very progressive and helpful things. I have never had the chance to discuss religion with anyone in particular, but I admit to feeling very comfortable when I see a mezuzah (sp?) on a door of a home I would be working in, they always made me feel at home and not at odds or like a servant.

There are scattered Pagan groups, a few in covens and many more as solitary witches, there is even a thriving group of Thelemics here (OTO). We witches are not exactly organised or well to do, we usually help alongside others rather than creating our own charities.

Bottom line is, there is good reason to be friends with all our neighbors that have an interest in being friendly, I don't get the hatred of any of these groups or the compulsion to raise call and stir up hatred among or at them. People are people. they can choose compassion and empathy, or they can choose hatred and casting stones.

my philosophy is simple: An I harm none, I may do as I will, and also mean people suck. I don't feel the need to get much deeper than that.

[Jackpine Radical]

136. When forced to identify my beliefs, I generally say something like "pagan/Buddhist"

and maybe mention that I'm a "card-carrying Unitarian."

I find that your philosophy is entirely consistent with mine, except that I might add the notion that it's my purpose to try to leave the world a little better than I left it; "Life is short; be kind."

Thanks for your humane contributions to this thread.

[JDPriestly]

144. Very good statement. Thanks.

[idwiyo]

63. K&R I am with you. No fucking way am I going to let them celebrate election of homophobic bigot,

misogynist, and Argentinian military hunta collaborator without a challenge. The only reason I don't mention pedophilia is because I want to see what if anything will be done by this new "holy father".

Interesting how not one single one of terribly oppressed and persecuted gave a single thought how damn offensive this shit is to LGBTQ community on DU. Or those women here who are not Catholic.
Or victims of child abuse by Catholic priests. All of the above is NOTHING to compare to their hurt feelings. THEY are the true victims here, they and no one else.

[magical thyme]

129. the "military hunta collaborator" has been soundly debunked

as shoddy journalism (at best) by the Guardian.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022540321#post9

I am still awaiting to see the larger effect the new Pope will have. I have guarded hopes; I don't blindly trust any large organizations, and resent any religion's intrusion into secular government affairs. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. But this Pope is starting to at least look very different from his predecessor.

[idwiyo]

132. Ill take Caterina's word about 2 Jesuit priests for now and drop the collaborator accusation.

Definitely need to do some research of my own. Majority of the scorches don't convince me one way or the other. Either one could be lying at this point.

Homophobia and mysogyny stand unchallenged though. Unless he denounces those views he is a bigot of the most dangerous variety because of his position. I'll wait and see what he does about pedophilia.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Thanks for saying what I did not say.

Try reading comprehension next time.

[Posteritatis]

31. Isn't the "respond to a fictional statement instead of the post" brigade wonderful?

All the doubling down on it and everything for that one too. Gah.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. They are...nerves must have been seriously hit.

[Taverner]

123. This poster just has a beef with Nadin

And insists on making an ass of themself

[Demo_Chris]

134. You should stick with addressing the content of the post and not the person writing it.

If you actually think I care (or even look) who I am responding to you are completely off the mark.

My position on the Church should be clear. Around the world, the Catholic church has victimized hundreds-of-thousands of humanity's most vulnerable. It's not the exception, it's not some rare thing, it's what they do. They are predators hunting the helpless and voiceless.

I care about the victims. The REAL victims. Others have different concerns.

[pnwmom]

8. I'm missing the logic here. n/t

[stevenleser]

18. There is nothing to miss. nt

[JDPriestly]

79. I hope you would include those who completely ignore the many

contributions of Protestants. Nothing against Catholics but I think the OP is way off in many of its statements. See my post below.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. At the moment we are talking of the current

All but healthy, climate on DU.

[RandiFan1290]

3. I thought porn was the outrage of the day?

This is the old shit

[WilliamPitt]

6. Daniel Berrigan was a Catholic priest.

[pnwmom]

9. Weren't both of the Berrigans Catholic priests? n/t

[WilliamPitt]

11. Yes

Philip Berrigan, too.

[mitchtv]

140. I believe Bishop Oscar Romero

was also

[kwassa]

60. but were they porn stars?

[LAGC]

12. "Historically, the Catholics have been a mainstay of political liberalism in the US."

Not any more.

To borrow from muriel_volestrangler in another thread:

The white Catholic vote:

2000: Gore 45%, Bush 52%
2004: Kerry 43%, Bush 56%
2008: Obama 47%, McCain 52%
2012: Obama 40%, Romney 59%

http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted-2012-Preliminary-Exit-Poll-Analysis.aspx

So, yeah, it would be nice if they had supported the Democratic candidate more than the Republican some time in the last 13 years, but they haven't. Even when the Dem was a white Catholic himself. And it was the worst of all in 2012.

Granted, Latino Catholics probably still lean Democratic, but that has more to do with racism in the Republican Party, which white Catholics don't seem to have a problem with.

[progressoid]

17. I was just about to post the same. Catholics have been heading to the GOP for the last few decades.

muriel_volestrangler nailed it...again.

[The Straight Story]

107. Maybe because we tell them they suck and don't want them? (nt)

[Ikonoklast]

128. It's because White Catholics are increasingly an aging demographic, trending conservative just as

their church is.

Increasingly suburban, less urban, more conservative as they moved from their humbler roots.

[progressoid]

133. Maybe we told them Black people and Gay people don't suck and they left us.

When the Democratic party started supporting civil rights in the 60's a lot of people fled the party - including Catholics. This marked a turning point as Catholics started voting Republican in the same proportion as their Protestant neighbors.

Today Catholics have to decide where their allegiance lies regarding gay rights and reproductive rights and a myriad of other political issues. If they find they agree with the Church on the more conservative issues, they may also find comfort in the Republican party.

[Posteritatis]

32. Defining "Catholics" as "white Catholics" is a little dishonest. (nt)

[LAGC]

36. Indeed, white Catholics are fleeing the church in droves.

If not for Latinos, the Catholic Church here in America would be losing members instead of gaining.

But whites still make up 65% of the church:

http://www.pewforum.org/Christian/Catholic/A-Portrait-of-American-Catholics-on-the-Eve-of-Pope-Benedicts-Visit-to-the-US.aspx

[muriel_volestrangler]

65. I posted those figures in answer to a particular question:

Where do you get the idea that White, Non-Latino Catholics mostly support Republicans?

You can see, at the Pew link, the figures for all Catholics:

2000: Gore 50%, Bush 47%
2004: Kerry 47%, Bush 52%
2008: Obama 54%, McCain 45%
2012: Obama 50%, Romney 48%

Which are roughly comparable to the overall US figures; more Democratic than Protestants, less than Jewish/other faiths/unaffiliated. But I'm not convinced that Catholics can be called a 'mainstay' of liberalism with figures like that.

[DirkGently]

48. Wrong. Liberal, not Democratic. Still are.

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/god-and-country/2009/03/30/gallup-poll-catholics-the-same-or-more-liberal-than-others-on-moral-issues

There's a graphic I'm not linking to, which says:

Catholics were more (edit: or less) accepting of the following than non-Catholics:

Abortion (Catholics more accepting than non-Catholics, other than nonregular Church attendees)

The Death Penalty (All Catholics less accepting than non-Catholics)

Sex outside of marriage (Catholics more accepting than all but non regular church attending non-Catholics)

Stem cell research (church-attending Catholics more accepting than church-attending non-Catholics, non-attending Catholics behind only non-attending non-Catholics)

Homosexual relations (Church attending Catholics twice as accepting as church-attending non-Catholics, non-attenders tied with non-attending non-Catholics).

So hooray for hating members of a religion who don't sufficiently support your political party, even if they're more liberal than the people in it.

[JDPriestly]

85. Yes. With regard to these issues, there are really two Protestant directions.

Fundamentalists are very conservative, but mainstream Protestant churches are not necessarily conservative although some are. Episcopalians, Methodists, some Presbyterians, Church of Christ and some other denominations tend to be progressive and more liberal. President Obama belongs to the Church of Christ.

[DirkGently]

86. Regardless, the attempt to generalize is nasty & unsupportable.

I think it's interesting that amongst all the protesting that the only beef is with the institution of the church, we somehow have all of these little digs and barbs attempting to get at Catholic people in general. "Oh, they don't vote Democrat."

Fascinating. Because, you know, I'm pretty sure if someone tried to pull a critique on an ethnicity, or even Islam or Judaism, based on voting demographics, their butt would leave skid marks as they were booted off the site.

[JDPriestly]

89. My area has lots of Catholics who vote for Democrats.

I think that is an odd thought.

I understand the criticism of the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. You can blame church members if a Protestant Church's management is blamable, but you certainly cannot blame Catholics for what their church hierarchy says, thinks or does. The lay members have little control in the Catholic Church.

[HiPointDem]

99. catholics vote more democratic than protestants. and latino catholics don't just 'lean' dem,

as can be seen in the chart in the OP.

A majority of catholics voted for Gore & Obama (x2).

A majority of protestants voted for Bush (x2), McCain, & Romney. Despite the black protestant vote.

Your post is dumb. White catholics still vote more liberally than 'whites' do.

[Jackpine Radical]

138. The Maryknolls, the Catholic Workers--

the Church is by no means monolithic.

[Jamastiene]

13. I loved the Catholics in my area growing up.

I live in the Bible Belt in a small town where religion tends to be the "hellfire and brimstone" kind, complete with hating on gay people and having special PTA meetings to discuss "the problem" (their words, not mine) with white girls dating black boys in schools here.

I always appreciated the Catholics in my area. They were the ones who did NOT harangue me and harass me day in and day out when I came out. They treated me the same as before. The Jewish people here were nonjudgmental too. If only the vast majority of the Christians in this area would have laid off the "hellfire and brimstone" and not called in death threats to my house, I might not have had such a hard time in my late teens and early 20s. Actually, it wasn't until my late 20s, almost 30, that I finally toughened up and decided to just see the hateful ones who had been preaching so much hatred at me for so many years for what they were; bigots.

It was the local Catholics, a couple Jewish people, and a Wiccan who brought me out of my deep depression and taught me I had value as a human being. After that, I was able to get my life together and be happy, despite the fact that the vast majority of the Protestants (except one Presbyterian church here) in this area hate me and think I am the worst type of person in the world, simply because I am a lesbian.

I hated Christians for the longest time, until I met the people I listed above, and some very nice DUers (online), I learned that not all Christians hate gay people. I learned not to hate. I did not want to become like those who had made my life a living hell for so long. So, I learned not all Christians hate gay people and there are some gay Christians too. That blew my mind at first, but eventually, I "got" it.

I guess what it all comes down to is the fact that not every single person in any group is a carbon copy of anyone else. Catholics are not a monolith either. I don't see where hating all of any group is wise. Actually, to me, it seems pointless and poisonous (to yourself) to hate. Yes, there are bad people in the world. There are even bad people who help cover up unconscionable crimes. There are also loving, caring people who would do everything in their power to stop those same unconscionable crimes. Single out the assholes and point out why you are pissed off at those assholes. Don't hold it against everyone who considers themselves Catholic or whatever group the assholes belong to. Every group has assholes, but not all of any group are assholes. If that was the case, the world would be full of nothing but assholes. That would truly stink.

[stevenleser]

19. +1

[DirkGently]

50. There's a fair amount of "Mary worshippers" venom under the surface here.

I could not personally dislike the Catholic Church or its policies more. But then you see "but they don't know Jesus" thrown in there, and you start to hear someone's Bible-thumping Protestant disdain for the often ethnically different, often educated Catholic culture oozing through.

Enough all fucking ready.

[liberal_at_heart]

66. I'm glad you have found peace

You are absolutely right. There are good and bad people in every walk of life imaginable. The key is definitely to seek out the good ones who will love you and whom you can love.

[MellowDem]

15. Catholics are not a mainstay of political libreralism...

And... the church heirarchy, the ones with all the power and that makes all the decisions, is incredibly bigoted, and will gladly use the money from liberal Catholics to spread bigotry.

Catholics, just like many other religious people of certain faiths, are identifying themselves with a bigoted institution. Yes, that's harmful to those that the Catholic Church preys upon.

[DirkGently]

88. I'm just wondering which religious people are the most culpable

- Catholics, who demographically skew more liberal than the general population

- Protestants, whose sects include pretty much ALL American religious extremism, what with the clinic bombings and doctor shootings

- Mormons -- I've heard a lot about Catholic tithing here. It's not followed nearly as "religiously" as with Mormons. Your call on which institution has the more bigoted views

- Jews -- I don't know enough about the sins of Judaism, so I'll let you fill that in.

- Islam -- ?

Could you rank, maybe, the people whose church affiliation alone, regardless of their personal views or actions, makes them the worst people?

[MellowDem]

130. Oh please...

Stop with these stupid, infantile strawmen. I never said religious people who identify with bigoted religions are "bad" people. That's the problem really. Plenty of good people align themselves with horribly bigoted institutions, and it's considered beyond reproach simply because religion is involved. Do people who align themselves voluntarily with bigoted institutions deserve some amount of criticism? Yes.

Catholics don't really skew more liberal than the general population. Hispanics do skew more Democrat Party (not liberal per se). Whites don't. And white and Hispanic Catholics reflect that very well.

Quite a few Protestant religions skew more politically liberal than the general population, Episcopalians being one, but there are also Southern Baptists that don't.

But of course, which religious population skews which way is irrelevant and a red herring. The point is that people are identifying with bigoted institutions, and what their personal political leanings are are irrelevant to that fact.

[DirkGently]

139. Well, no. The "red herring" is that Catholic liberals

somehow need to be berated for belonging to their religion, while we never tolerate such talk toward the general membership of equally culpable religions, which would be all of them.

Or was there a "Protestants you're supporting bigotry" meme we all missed?

[HiPointDem]

100. They vote more democratic than protestants. and are more liberal on social issues than the

general population is.

[MellowDem]

131. Hispanics vote Democratic more than whites...

is what you're really saying. Catholic whites reflect the general population very well.

All of which is irrelevant to the point that liberals are identifying with bigoted institutions and somehow think they should be above criticism because it's a religious institution. Or they are completely overreacting, taking relevant criticism as a personal attack on their morality or questioning their liberal values.

[HiPointDem]

137. and whites are less liberal generally than hispanics (or blacks) is all *you're* saying. White

Catholics are more liberal than whites as a whole, and than white protestants, and than the population as a whole.

[Humanist_Activist]

16. Liberal Catholics should boycott the Church, financially. n/t

[treestar]

25. I do that

I go but I don't give them money!

If I felt like I had some I'd give it to the specific collections they take up for various causes.

[idwiyo]

39. Oh shit, you are going to be accused of bigotry. Just watch.

[Zoeisright]

98. No kidding.

The pearl clutchers get their panties in a twist when you suggest their collection offerings enable pedophiles. Which they do, of course.

[idwiyo]

106. I kind of feel sorry for them. I would feel sick if I found that one of the non-religious charities

I give money to spent it on protecting and enabling pedophiles, but fuck if I would refuse to accept the blame AND it would be the last penny they ever got from me.

[Cleita]

20. Nuns, who were my teachers, made a feminist out of me long before

there was a Gloria Steinem et al.. They gave me a core of self-esteem as a woman that I could accomplish what goals I wanted regardless of the obstacles men in society put in front of me. This was when the rest of society considered June Cleaver(Leave it to Beaver), Donna Stone(The Donna Reed Show) and Margaret Anderson (Father Knows Best) and were considered the epitome of what women should strive to be.

Thanks Jackpine Radical.

[rhett o rick]

30. The nuns taught you that you "could accomplish what goals you wanted

regardless of the obstacles men in society put in front of [you]." That is except be a priest, archbishop, or pope.

[Cleita]

35. There never was one of those to get in my way, because I didn't let them.

Also, most of the nuns don't let them either. There have been diocesan dust ups between bishops and nuns in the past. Guess who won? Most recently there was a kerfluffle with the "nuns on the bus" and the last Pope. Guess who won.

[rhett o rick]

40. I applaud the victories of the nuns. I know Catholics and have known nuns and priests and

they were all great people. But, I think it is a shame in today's world that the most powerful religion and one of the most powerful governments is so heavily male dominated.

You say they didnt get in your way, but that was because you didnt want to be a priest or higher.

[Cleita]

41. I agree. It's time for them to come out of the Middle Ages and start

allowing women to take Orders and become priests, because that's they only way any one can aspire to rise in the Church. However, speaking of the Middle Ages, that was the time of the Great Abbesses. These were very powerful Church women who were the heads of religious orders. Many were scholars and even advisors to kings. It seems the Church needs a few more Great Abbesses who can push the movement forward for women in the priesthood. I would also like to see marriage be allowed to the average priest.

[rhett o rick]

42. Well said. nm

[UTUSN]

22. This paragraph says it (O.P.) in a slightly different way:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022535646

*************QUOTE************* [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"] [/FONT]

http://www.salon.com/2013/03/16/is_pope_francis_a_fraud/

Saturday, Mar 16, 2013 12:30 PM CDT

[font size=5]Is Pope Francis a fraud?
After a [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]right-wing coup crushed the reforms[/FONT] of Vatican II, one scholar says the [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]last two popes are illegitimate[/FONT] [/font]

I’m a “legacy Catholic,” or ancestral Catholic, rather than the genuine article; my parents were both previously married and declined to come crawling back and undergo the necessary humiliation. Then again, as the former Dominican priest, radical theologian and bestselling author Matthew Fox told me in a recent phone conversation, a large number of the 1.2 billion believers the church claims are “disaffiliated Catholics, ex-Catholics, Catholics with one foot in and one foot out.” Like many of those people, I’m not immune to all the emotion and adulation being poured onto the new pope just because I think it’s misplaced. More than anything else, that passion is the enduring, if confusing, legacy of Vatican II, the historic reform council of 1962–65 that promised all sorts of big changes within Catholicism that never quite came to pass.

**********UNQUOTE*******

[treestar]

24. A very long history with many people

is bound to have both good and bad.

[RainDog]

27. It's a difference between European Platonism

and Anglo-American empiricism.

[WCGreen]

29. I wish I would have taken my mom's offer to send me to St. Edwards here in Cleveland....

I wanted to go to St. Ignacius but that was not an option. I ended up staying at Westlake High School, not the best but still a pretty good school.

It really does make a difference.

Anyway, by that time I no longer believed in a higher power of any kind.

All the stuff that is coming at us from science about multiple universes and other realms of reality, it's hard to think that religion has a place in all that.

But, there is a but in there. What started it all. I use to say if you believe in eternity going forward, then how easy is it to say there was no beginning and there is no end. It just exists.

[TheMadMonk]

33. If I can be held responsible for the "evils" of my gender, then Catholics...

...can wear their share of responsibility for the actions of the Church of which they are members, and which they financially support.

[liberal_at_heart]

67. That's just it. There are bad people in every group of people. There are bad people here on DU.

that does not mean the entire group of DUers are bad. It is untrue and bigoted to say that an entire group of people are bad. If it were the case then there isn't a single good person on this Earth.

[talkingmime]

34. Sorry, but I'm yet to meet a Catholic who understands what Jesus taught.

They're lost in tradition and ritual and really don't grasp what they claim to adhere to. I'm an athiest and I know more about the bible than they do. It's sort of fun to get into debates with them. I've read at least ten versions of the bible, cover to cover, and it amazes them that there's more than one version! I get a chuckle out of that.

The GOP loves to throw around "bible words" to keep the flock in line, but they don't do anything that could even be remotely construed as "Christian". It's all hyperbole and bullshit. I've studied a dozen or so religions and they all basically say the same thing - treat people well. That really is the base message in all of them.

To be fair, I will admit that I've known some Methodists (including my wife) who actually comprehend the meaning of the bible. Most of it is allegory. It isn't meant to be taken literally and only a fool would do so. Aesop didn't mean his work to be taken literally either. Neither did Plato.

If you're Catholic, excuse me. I mean no offense. I just haven't encountered one who could touch the flame in the candle of the religion. All pawns. I've bitten flames off of candles and liked it.

Maybe I just haven't run into an intelligent Catholic. It could be as simple as that. I'm not sure, but I am disappointed.

[DirkGently]

49. Or Catholics are too intelligent to take the Bible literally.

That's been my experience, including many sermons I've heard. I think your take is bigoted, frankly.

[idwiyo]

51. How is it bigoted?

[DirkGently]

53. Really? Catholics are "wrapped in ritual" & don't know Jeeesus?

Which part of that isn't a ridiculous attempt to characterize people based on ignorant nonsense? Are Protestants wrapped in Bible-thumping stupidity? I've met a tiny number who are, so I guess I could make that characterization, if it wasn't laughably unfair and transparently preferential of another religion. The guy brags about how often he's read the Bible and chuckles that "Catholics" in general do not? I'm not even going start on how that's not really a bragging point.

I'm struggling to see what you're struggling to see here.

[idwiyo]

56. Catholics are not wrapped in ritual? Of course they are, and so are other religions. All of them are

ritualistic and dogmatic to the boot, doesn't matter which one you look at. This thread just happen to be about RCC, hence poster is talking about RCC. What's so difficult to understand?

Knowledge of the bible? I tend to agree with the poster. I am an atheist and I will bet I know the bible much better than you or any other believer. I read both Old and New Testaments because I was trying to figure what is so compelling about that book to make so many people to believe that nonsense. Not that I found any wisdom in it but it was entertaining. Never mind the discrepancies, absurdities and rest of the stupidity. I guess I am "bragging" too.

[DirkGently]

83. Your first silly, smug assumption is that I'm a believer.

Guess you were so busy re-reading the Bible enough times to recognize it's not true that you don't know what a Flying Spaghetti Monster is.

But the main thing you're missing, or pretending to miss, is that the poster didn't compare believers and non-believers. He/she claimed to have observed how just Catholics don't know the Bible and are steeped in ritual. His thesis was that Catholics don't "know what Jesus taught."

He didn't say "religious people," or "Christians." So your premise is fully bullshit.

It doesn't make any sense to read it the way you're trying to. But you really couldn't be bothered to slow down your knee-jerk defense of an attack on Catholicism to think things through, could you?

You're the type of atheist who gives us all a bad name. Wow, you read the Bible. So erudite and above the rubes.

I've got news for you, but the very worst religious extremists DO know the Bible well, far better, I'd guess than a snarky Internet Atheist.

So again, it's kind of a crappy brag, if you think about it.

[LAGC]

92. For an atheist, you sure do protest much.

Are you one of those "faithiest" types that don't believe in God but do believe in the BELIEF in God?

I suppose you think religion is an overwhelming force for good in the world as well, eh?

[DirkGently]

93. Just not the jackass type. Did you have a response to my actual post?

[LAGC]

95. There have been studies that have shown...

...that the average atheist/agnostic is more knowledgeable about religion (in general) than the average believer.

Here is just one example: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/09/28/130191248/atheists-and-agnostics-know-more-about-bible-than-religious

So its not exactly "bragging" to suggest that one who identifies as a non-believer may in fact be more knowledgeable about the subject than those that do believe.

FWIW.

[DirkGently]

97. Oh noooooo. These posters both know more than ANY religious person.

I mean, did you actually read either post? The first guy eats the flames no mere Catholic can perceive, or some such supercilious horseshit, and the second with his guarantee he knows more than any believer like (me, the unbeliever)

It's that childish, smug, transparently low-intellect atheist vibe that gives us all a bad name.

No one who's smart throws down chuckling emoticons about how smart they are. It just comes off like a little kid who knows one magic trick, or the college guy who read the one (Ayn Rand) book, and suddenly thinks they have the drop on everybody.

Great, you let go of the god thing. So have a lot of people. Doesn't make you a genius, nor support this dripping condescension toward people. Particularly given, as we all know, that a lot of religious people don't really take the Bible or frankly a lot of their church's supposed dogma, literally at all. Candle-flame guy can't have talked to any Catholics I've ever met, because not a one had the kind of literal view you find in many Protestant sects in America.

So, in a way you're right. It's not effective bragging to condescend to Catholics or other religious people, many of whom are smarter than our beloved fellow posters, about having read the Bible and gotten that it's not a history book.

It's more like deluded, self-satisfied bragging without any basis or point.

[HiPointDem]

102. +1. You find some of the same posters doing the same routine about fat people, walmart white

trash shoppers, etc.

Great advertisement for the big tent of the democratic party.

[talkingmime]

110. Ayn Rand? How did that sneak in? I won't wast my time on that crap.

But I do like Jean Paul Sartre.

[idwiyo]

108. Where the hell did I say you are a believer? Can you point it to me please?

I did assume that an atheist would have at least a basic knowledge of the bible and at minimum some idea about other major religions, you know, for curiosity and general education sake. Never mind that one has to have an idea what one is actually talking about before one criticises anything.

What exactly made you believe I never heard of FSM? Basic search of DU on my username and FSM would have convinced you otherwise. Would have saved you the embarrassment and prevented a personal attack you immediately engaged in.

Now, to the "main thing". I repeat what I already said before - this thread is about RCC', poster was talking about RCC and doesn't have any obligation to talk about anything else but what is relevant to this particular topic.

Again, what's with personal attacks? Did I hit the sore spot? I apologise if you feel inferior somehow.

I've got the news for you too, I doubt very much your average religious extremist knows the bible all that well. What they know on typically is what suits them in the bible, everything else they reject and pretend it doesn't exist. Saw that enough times to make that claim. YMMV.

Last but not least. Next time when you make such a claim as

you're the type of atheist who gives us all a bad name

please use "I" instead of "we", unless you can show a proof that you have permission to speak for the rest of the atheists. Which of course you don't and that makes everything else you say kind of suspect.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Your view is a tad on the bigoted side

And I say that as a non-Catholic.

[idwiyo]

58. ...

[talkingmime]

114. It's a simple observation. I've been to Catholic churches, Protestant churches,

Baptist churches (which is an ENTIRELY different subject), non-denominational churches, and synagogues. I've never attended a service at a mosque, but I do have a Qu'uran as well as multiple versions of the Bible. One does not need to be religious to read and try to understand the intention of a religious text. But frankly, the young-Earth thing makes me giggle.

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Given Catholics accept evolution

Don't see a conflict between genesis and an Earth that is 4.5 billions years old, or a universe at 12 or is it 15 billion, that would be barking up the wrong tree I suppose.

Oh they also have a world renowned cosmologist working at the Observattorio Romano, not the paper by the way, who also happens to be a Jesuit priest.

Stereotypes much? All this is so well known outside the church that even me, a simple Jew, trust me, I don't attend mass often...know it. It's a matter of that pesky public record. In fact, some of it is actually a scene in that famous Bill Mahrer movie, I suppose the religious garb is confusing.

[talkingmime]

117. Actually, that's exactly my view on it. If you don't take "six days" literally,...

and rather view it as "eras", then it meshes perfectly. The problem starts "in the beginning". How can you start the clock on a "day" if there's nothing (specifically Earth) to serve as the clock? My sister-in-law is a Baptist who grew up Methodist and for reasons beyond my conception (she's highly intelligent and well educated) she honestly believes that Earth is six thousand years old. Go figure.

And the 12-15 billion year old universe is simple speculation. The expansion leaves a lot of it dark to us because the light will never reach us. Relative to the galaxies moving away from us, yes, we're traveling faster than the speed of light. It's a little hard to wrap your head around at first, but relativity really doesn't imply that you can't move faster than light if you pick a point of reference that already is.

I look at it as multi-dimensional and consider the "center" of the universe to be the perimeter at the same time, folding into itself to continue the cycle. It took a lot of pot to come up with that theory, but that was a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

I still don't believe there is a God, but at the same time have no means to prove either way. People claim it is God's will when someone suffers a horrible nasty death and turn right around and praise God for saving someone else from similar circumstances. SHIT HAPPENS!

There are a lot of progressive non-denominational churches out there that are willing to engage in intellectual and philosophical discussions about the various versions of the Bible, and other religious texts for that matter. I've enjoyed many such "services", but they are more gatherings of those with open minds.

Certain Americans call Muslims terrorists and certain Muslims call us "The Great Satan". Curiously, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity share the same roots. It seems that every religion states that it is the one true path (not all) but if God is all powerful, why can't every religion be true at the same time even if they contradict each other?

And what Bill Mahrer movie?

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. Religious iirc

It came out in 2006

I got a copy in my computer. Worth watching

[talkingmime]

119. "iirc"? What does that stand for?

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. Net slang for If I Remember Correctly.

[talkingmime]

121. Ah, got it. So the movie is just called "Religious".

[nadinbrzezinski]

122. I am looking for it

Religolous, that's the name.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

54. Suggestion for you--since you seem to regard yourself

a biblical scholar, why don't you conduct a bible study at your local Catholic church and maybe--just maybe--you may happen upon an "intelligent Catholic".

[nadinbrzezinski]

62. Yoohooo more bigotry!!!!

You know ignorance or knowledge of the Bible is not a mark of intelligence. In fact in the modern world most people, regardless of faith, are pretty ignorant of it.

For the record, I have had pretty deep conversations around the subject with people of different faiths, some of them Catholic. In fact, one of them included reading Genesis in the original language including exegesis and analysis.

Now, do continue with your bigotry, good bye, welcome to my ignore list. I have little time for real bigots. You are one Sir.

[DirkGently]

91. These smug, self-satisfied little atheists give the rest us non-believers a bad name.

Zowie, "No one understands the Bible but me and my friends chuckle chuckle?"

That is some lame, Sophomore-reading-Ayn-Rand-thinking-he's-found-philosophy crap, right there. Self-deluded and mean in the stupidest way.

And yes, sadly, lamely, impotently bigoted.

[idwiyo]

109. Pray to tell who gave you permission to speak for the rest of the atheists?

[talkingmime]

111. God.

[idwiyo]

113. Must be :) :) :)

[talkingmime]

116. Sorry. I couldn't resist.

[idwiyo]

124. You. Are. Bad. Really bad.

[talkingmime]

125. Well, it WAS one of those shoes that fit!

[idwiyo]

126. Coffee. All over IPad. AND white sofa.

[talkingmime]

127. Oh shit. Sorry.

[talkingmime]

112. Would I have to wear a collar?

[corneliamcgillicutty]

141. No collar--just have your MENSA membership

card on you so you can validate your IQ in case you run into an "intelligent Catholic".

[talkingmime]

142. Yeah, I wish. I'm not even close to MENSA level. And I do wear a collar.

It has dog tags (from PetSmart) listing my medical conditions and contact numbers. It also sports a pill canister for my emergency medicine. My service dog has the same in case I fall down and can't find my own canister. If there's anyone around, Catholic or not, intelligent or not, or even someone strung out on meth, I just hope they grab the tags, call 911 and deal with me while I drool on the floor. I'm not counting on any of that to happen, but the dog will stay with me.

[MissMarple]

38. I am very happy to recommend this post.

What is with all the Catholic bashing? They have sinners and corruption in a VERY large bureaucracy. Now they have an opportunity to clean things up. There will be resistence. Success will be uncertain and certainly qualified. But, we should wish them all the best. I believe there will be a good measure of housecleaning.

[s-cubed]

45. I haven't been a catholic since college, but I learned social justice and compassion from the nuns

who taught me.

[liberal_at_heart]

72. Just like with other groups of people it is the younger generations that change the way they view

things compared to the past generations. When young Catholics are taught social justice they realize that means that all people should have freedom. The young Catholics are changing things and it may take time for those young ones to become the old guard but we will get there. Everyone expect Catholics to just snap their fingers and make everything perfect. It takes time. Sometimes it takes one to two generations to change things. Freedom does not happen overnight. African Americans, women, gay people and every other group who has had to fight for their freedom has had to do it for years and years, decade after decade. I use to wonder why gay people didn't just get angry and revolt. The truth is they are doing a much better job by being kind and gentle. They show people that gay people are just like they are. That they want the same things that other people want, and that they really are not a threat to anybody. But it takes time.

[lbrtbell]

55. The religious beliefs aren't what's at issue here

The deliberate covering-up of child molestation is.

I was brought up Catholic, and went to Catholic schools. But I refuse to support the Church anymore. There are plenty of other religions out there. A person's world isn't going to end upon choosing another religion.

[DirkGently]

96. Some people stay in a faith & try to make it mean something better.

I was raised Catholic as well. Didn't take past high school.

But staying and working is a valid approach. Our country starts wars that kill millions. Our political party has overseen drone strikes that have killed hundreds of civilians. Yet we continue to identify with them and try to make them better.

Catholics can see something worthwhile in their religion, just as Muslims and Jews and Protestants can, even though all of those groups have committed heinous crimes and espouse dogma that if taken seriously, is false and destructive.

I don't see anyone on DU yelling at Muslims and Mormons to get out of their vile, evil, irredeemable church.

So where's the free pass to attack, not the religious institution, but it's members in this case?

[liberal_at_heart]

57. I was touched by the Pope's first public mass.

It is obvious he really cares about the poor and the disabled.

[idwiyo]

59. Too bad he doesn't give a fuck about Gays, doesn't respect women enough to let them decide

what to do with their bodies, and never mind those two priests who were tortured by Argentinian hunta because of him.

But I am sure he is really nice guy!

[liberal_at_heart]

61. Yes, and I'm sure you are perfect of course. I love the ignore button.

[idwiyo]

64. Oh fuck. You actually went as low as to excuse homophobia and misogyny. Well done.

Thank you for putting me ion ignore. I am truly honoured.

[Arugula Latte]

68. "Gay marriage is Satan's work."

Disgusting. Repulsive. Repellant.

I'm absolutely revolted that you are defending this shit.

[Apophis]

71. Wow. Really?

The pope has views on homosexuality and women that go against our political leanings and you attack a fellow Democrat because he/she pointed that out?

W.T.F.

[muriel_volestrangler]

69. Can you post on the other listserv to tell them their historical knowledge is appalling?

And anyone who describes science as an "anti-intellectual realm" is really, really not worth quoting. If you need us to list the many errors, we can make a start.

[lunasun]

76. can republicans as a group still be bashed here? logic in thread says no

[Arugula Latte]

84. How BIGOTED and broad-brushed to trash the GOP! It has done great things in the past!

Also, it can change from within! Also, it has a lot of tradition! Also, there were some great Republican leaders! Like Lincoln! Also, pointing out that the GOP trashes women and gays to this day is just plain RUDE!

[liberal_at_heart]

87. there are moderate republicans out there that are willing to reach across the isle

Most of them have left Congress but they still exist. Not all GOPers are bad.

[Arugula Latte]

90. You truly missed the satiric point of the post.

[DirkGently]

94. No, I don't think they did.

[defacto7]

77. I think everyting has been said concerning Catholicism pro and con.

Last edited Wed Mar 20, 2013, 02:31 AM - Edit history (1)

I agree with many things that have been said and disagree with much more... but is it necessary to continue bashing the Roman Catholic tradition? I think not. It's been said over and over ad nauseam.

If you want a flip side view of human tragedy, I would consider reading up on the Sacking of Rome by the German hordes of Martin Luther. Their aim was to make the Catholics feel the wrath of hell on earth before they were killed. Never was there a time in the history of mankind that humans were more barbaric than what those who sacked Rome in the name of Martin Luther wreaked on a populous. Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan would have been touched.

The Catholic Church is not the problem.



edit: the spelling of the word "hordes" previously spelled "hoards" Would hate to mix anyone up on whether the Germans were trying to hoard Martin Luther but I am not sure how Germans would do that. You know... context/words.. forest/trees, that kind of thing.

[LAGC]

101. That would be German HORDES...

Sorry, Grammar Nazi.

[defacto7]

103. Ahhhhh....

In the heat of discussion I must have let that slide.... Or I'm just stupid.

Thank you grammar Nazi. BTW, good thing this is not a German site. The word Nazi there is like using our racial "N" word that I can't even write here. But then we use the word Nazi here in a casual way all the time don't we. Semantics and subtext make fun exercises too. My wife from East Germany would love to have a word with you. Best not.

[JDPriestly]

78. When was Adlai Stevenson's presidency?

Somehow I missed that one.

Also, no Protestant intellectuals?

Well, what about Kant?

http://www.conservapedia.com/Immanuel_Kant

And John Locke?

John Locke came from a protestant family. His father was a country attorney with a modest income, but connections with the parliamentary side of the Civil War meant that the young John could attend upper class Westminster School and in 1652 enter Christ Church college at the University of Oxford. He followed the classical curriculum of grammar, philosophy, geometry and Greek but took more interest in science and medicine, which he studied on his own.

http://www.incois.gov.in/Tutor/science+society/lectures/illustrations/lecture22/locke.html

Then some of our own late Enlightenment intellectuals: Jefferson, raised as a Protestant, might be classed as a Unitarian (at least Jefferson), Madison were just amazing. And they actually put their philosophy into practice.

Oh, and Voltaire, the Enlightenment's brightest and wittiest, was raised Catholic but didn't stay one.

François-Marie Arouet (French: [fʁɑ̃.swa ma.ʁi aʁ.wɛ]; 21 November 1694 – 30 May 1778), known by his nom de plume Voltaire (pronounced: [vɔl.tɛːʁ]), was a French Enlightenment writer, historian and philosopher famous for his wit, his attacks on the established Catholic Church, and his advocacy of freedom of religion, freedom of expression, and separation of church and state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltaire

Lots of intellectuals were raised as Catholics.

But many of them had to veer far from from the Church in order to write and say what they did.

Sartre, for example, . . . . may have been raised Catholic, but he certainly did not stay one.

Remember most of Europe including Southern Germany, never became Protestant. But a good share of our important progressive intellectuals have been Protestants.

That is especially true if you think of social movements such as that led by Jane Addams. It takes an intellectual to found a social movement of the kind she began.

Fascinated by the early Christians and Tolstoy's book My Religion, she was baptized a Christian in the Cedarville Presbyterian Church, in the summer of 1886.[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Addams

Then of course Ralph Waldo Emerson was viewed as a Unitarian.

Henry David Thoreau was of Hugenot ancestry.

http://college.cengage.com/english/lauter/heath/4e/students/author_pages/early_nineteenth/thoreau_he.html?AX12239

So was, as we all know, Martin Luther King -- definitely a Protestant and a progressive social reformer.

Jane Austen, a novelist if there ever was one, was the daughter of a church rector.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Austen

Granted Proust, perhaps the greatest novelist of all time, was French, but his mother, I do believe was Jewish, not Catholic. He was considered to be half-Jewish, half-Catholic.

http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?ID=1009

Andre Gide was Protestant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Gide

Charles Dickens?

Raised as a Protestant, converted to Unitarianism.

Mark Twain --

Although Twain was a Presbyterian,[citation needed] he was sometimes critical of organized religion and certain elements of Christianity through his later life. He wrote, for example, "Faith is believing what you know ain't so," and "If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be – a Christian."[90] Nonetheless, as a mature adult he engaged in religious discussions and attended services, his theology developing as he wrestled with the deaths of loved ones and his own mortality.[91] His own experiences and suffering within his family made him particularly critical of "faith healing," such as espoused by Mary Baker Eddy and Christian Science.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Twain#Religion

Chaucer, of course, was a Catholic. But then, there weren't any Protestants in his day.

http://www.luminarium.org/medlit/chaucer.htm

Personally, I prefer the novels of Dickens, Proust and Gide to those of Sartre or Zola. Personal taste. But still, you can't say that great novelists are mostly Catholic.

Finally, neither Protestants nor Catholics are "superior" when it comes to literature or intellect.

And we owe a lot of our math concepts to the Muslims.

I will agree, however, that the Catholic Church made the most significant contribution to the visual arts. In my opinion, there cannot be any work of art on earth more beautiful than the Pieta. That's just my opinion. But one thing about the Pieta is that it is decidedly Catholic. Protestants did not value art much. Some even believed much of the Catholic art to be idolatry.

But I'm sorry. I disagree with the article in the OP. And I was a big Stevenson supporter. And one thing I know is that he never won the presidency.

People of all religions have contributed to our cultural, intellectual and social progress. Catholics, in fact, have often been held back by the doctrinaire rigidity of the Catholic traditions. Maybe that is why their expression in the visual arts was so exceptional.

[Rowdyboy]

81. K&R for giving a damn about the feelinbgs of Catholic DUers...I'm not Catholic but they aren't

the problem, the church hierarchy is. I really don't understand the people who take such delight in insulting our DU Catholic allies because they are just that-our allies.

[gordianot]

105. I have a similar problem with Boy Scouts, their policies really infuriate me.

Yet I stay. A lot gets ignored.

[Hekate]

135. Recommended

[JNelson6563]

143. Certainly matches my experience.

Additionally, Catholics tend to be much less aggressive toward other churches (especially other sects of Christianity). With the exception of those truly whipped up anti-choice zealots Catholics are more likely to mind their own business in regard to religion.

Many take what they consider the best from the teachings & ignore the rest. I was one of them. I have arrived at atheism but it was an intellectual journey, not a reaction to a bad experience with the RCC (and I even went to their schools!).

Julie