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Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)you need resources as well as an ability to emigrate to renounce citizenship, unless you want to go stateless, which is just great because then you can't get a legal job, protection provided to civilians, a place to live(unless its one of those countries that practice practical slavery), etc.
Ex-Catholics, such as myself, didn't have to go through any of that, so really, just shut up about it.
Fresh_Start
(11,365 posts)but emotional sacrifice, social/familial strife and whatnot should be viewed as trivial?
For many people the familial/emotional losses are a much more difficult sacrifices than the financial.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)strife and whatnot combined with the financial burdens, etc.
Look, I get the point you are trying to make-- and I agree with you, to a point. Go back and look what DUers were writing in April (19th, I think) of 2005 about Pope Benedict. It's not pretty...but, no one....and I mean one of the other posters on this thread, and the admin. of the website, mistook questioning the hierarchy for "bashing Catholics."
I have asked three times in two forums what is different about this Pope...and have yet to hear an answer--
It's not age...Pope Francis is about or close to the same age as P. Benedict was at the time. So, not a clue on this one.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)It was one of the easiest and least painful decisions I ever made.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)That's a form of bigotry.
But let's play along. For a moment let's suppose every liberal catholic around the word, I mean lay, hierarchy, every one...leaves the church. What remains behind? You think that change will come? And yes, change in the church, it's the size of the organization and universal reach, is slow, glacially so. This is not the same church that fought tooth and nail against positivism, for example.
That change, as frustrating as it is...has come from. Liberal bastions within the church. In ths deal word where they all leave, whole swaths of universities and homeless shelters around the word will also close.
So attack the hierarchy, leave individual members the frack alone.
Or I will have to use the B word here...
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)is it really too much to ask?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Plate collections at Catholic Mass are not just down, but way down...would you like me to connect them dots? Sad, I am not even Catholic and I get it.
But bigotry is the name of this game...and incidentally, not only does it violate American tradition, going back to Jefferson (not that they fully practiced it either) and the terms of service for this site.
But do carry on.
No Vested Interest
(5,297 posts)No one here asks your approval to do anything.
No one here (that I know of) cares what you do with your time or money.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)To affect public policy.
No Vested Interest
(5,297 posts)to tell you to stop interfering with my freedom of religion, freedom of speech.
Only problem, I'm not the least interested in any of your life experiences and how you choose to spend your time, talent and life.
Your opinions are just that- opinions.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)
Cleita
(75,480 posts)
Because then you will have become everything you abhor.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)THEN you get to talk about it.
JVS
(61,935 posts)No, they just flip their shit when people point out that their ongoing financial support of an organization that promotes homophobia and sexism in the political arena works contrary to the liberal causes that liberals should support.
Stuff like this
and this
wouldn't happen if those men were not provided the resources and the clout of being able to say that they represent over 100,000,000 people.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)financially and who are not even Catholics. However the vile vitriol that has been directed towards Catholics on this board brings out the warrior in us who defend those who are being unfairly bullied. Neither I nor others support the interference of any religion in government. However, instead of alienating people who actually support your causes, you should be putting together your own lobbying efforts to enforce the separation of Church and State. Best of luck to you and a week ago I would have been out their helping you and supporting you, but now that I had a lot of hurtful rhetoric unfairly thrown at me, you are on your own with this one. I will be sitting this one out.
To sum it up, if you are going to bully religions, don't do it to your fellow DUers because the heirarchy aren't members here. I don't believe there is a single Bishop or Pope, those who could change things, who are members of DU and post here.
CountAllVotes
(22,206 posts)Dear nadinbrzezinski:
I'd like you to know how much I appreciate all that you've been doing the past few days by speaking up for the right to freely practice one's religion.
I'm sure you know that it is written into the Constitution of the United States as it should be.
Amendment 1 - Freedom of Religion
I find it incredibly sad what is going on in this forum and it makes me happy to know that there are people like you around that do care about other people and their feelings about the Catholic bigotry that has and will likely continue to go on here.
You've got some very good points and thoughts on this and yes, I'm impressed by the likes of YOU. 
Thank you for being who you are nadinbrzezinski. 
CountAllVotes
markpkessinger
(8,908 posts). . but just as freedom of speech does not protect a person from social backlash against such speech, neither does freedom of religion protect a person from being held socially accountable for his choice of faith.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)No, someone isn't going to come and burn Catholics at the stake but you sure said it with the socially accountable crap.
markpkessinger
(8,908 posts). . . It also preserves the right of others to call you out on it.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I will defend anybody who is being unfairly called out on it and that is also my First Amendment right.
markpkessinger
(8,908 posts). . . nor am I criticizing all Catholics (which I think is unfair). I'm merely pointing out that freedom of religion and freedom from criticism of religion are two entirely different things.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Just wondering.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)The others are following tradition, not necessarily attacking and that can change if people make them change. I hope one of these days the Church disassociates itself from Opus Dei because it is a toxic organization. Remember Bob Novak that horrible creep of a reporter from CNN? He was a charter member of Opus Dei. It's really a cult but wields a lot of influence especially in promoting the most conservative practices in the Church and that includes curbing the rights of women and gays and influencing the politics and policies of governments.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.
The seeds of the horrors are in events like this. I would rather speak out now.
It is also the Aristotelian principle of the Golden Mean.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And twice on Sunday. If you are incapable of distinguishing the hierarchy from practicing Catholics who happen to be posters here, many of whom are no longer leaving money in the collection plate...I can't help ya. If you think they are bigots cause you know, they attended mass on Sunday, and just for that, and they have decided to stay in their church and try to bring change...well that is not my problem, quite frankly...that is your problem.
Oh nd tsk, tsk, fer the irony challenge, Niemoller was Catholic.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)But this overwrought "Oh, Catholics on DU are being personally attacked" bullshit is getting ridiculous and it is also being used to try to get people to shut up and put up with homophobic and misogynistic policies. ("Attacking the Church won't help -- must change from within -- give it time -- expressing displeasure with the Vatican only backfires -- blah blah blah" ... Yeah, like passively taking what this Church dishes out has really worked for almost 2,000 years ...)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)If you think people are having wild imaginations and this, in your opinion, s not happening. People are leaving due to the toxic environment. But I guess they have wonderful imaginations.
Oh and one last thing...yes it has...tsk, tsk...Vatican II. Be a tad intellectually curious and find what it did to the Church. Lovely, that I know this and I am NOT EVEN CATHOLIC.
Have an excellent life.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Are you really arguing that the Church has continued to evolve in a liberal manner since then?
But, once again, thanks for your patronizing condescension. 
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)And patronizing, look around, you might even find a mirror at home. If you really have trouble, try the bathroom.
Anyway, I have little patience for...yes...bigots. Welcome to my ignore list. Enjoy your time with the gun nuts.
This whole affair as revealed a very ugly side of some folks.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)People who call out these bigots = not okay.
Got it.
aquart
(69,014 posts)Whereas religion is actually a very complex function in the human mind and human society..
You will be sure to take on the Hindus next?
Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #177)
Puzzledtraveller This message was self-deleted by its author.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)@ German officialdom's heinous regime.
And here you are, getting bent out of shape over ordinary US citizens (on DU) chastising the RCC and regular Catholic churchgoers for NOT speaking out/doing more/taking direct action (like leaving the church) against Vatican officialdom's heinous regime...
Oh the irony!
And you are a Holocaust daughter??
You can't have it both ways. Either its courageous to speak out/stand up/take direct action (like leaving the Nazi party or Catholic church) against vile policies one knows are wrong or its "bigoted" to call that out.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)he/she does. Yes, that does point to bigotry.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Of the psychological damage it and other churches place on LGBT people.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I defended the Church from accusations that aren't true. And you have really been flinging those accusations with aplomb. You are going on ignore after I alert on your accusation.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Stay classy!
Cleita
(75,480 posts)incorrect reasoning that it was the fault of Mormons and said it was a mental health issue. Really, you gotta start blaming the real culprits here not the ones you think are at fault. Blaming all religions for everything that happens to you or your friends isn't going to resolve your issues but add to them.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)fight against our rights and call us Satan's work and all of that. You:
"One thing the church is not is bigoted.
They were integrating black and hispanic children in the schools long before the public schools were doing it. You can accuse them of being sexist and patriarchal but not bigoted. btw the church is not anti-gay either. They recognize it's inborn not acquired. They are against gay sex, but they don't shun gays or mistreat them because they are gay."
you some more:
"One of my cousins was gay and the only family member who accepted him was me and we are a family of various religious traditions. His own father disowned him but not because of religious beliefs. He did not try to commit suicide and lived his gay life style as he pleased."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022530631#post161
Gay lifestyle- unreal.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)I am missing something-
Cleita
(75,480 posts)JanMichael
(25,725 posts)seen you on DU. Put a lid on it. Seriously. I had the word "Catholic" in the list of threads I couldn't see for a few days. One other long term poster here seriously pissed me off when they accused me of "Catholic bashing."
I don't play that game. I didn't want to see a RW nut from Latin America head the church, that's all. And yes, it's over poverty and LGBT issues....
My wife loves the Sisters of Mercy; we are NOT "Catholic bashers." (she is a "cradle Episcopalian"...I am still nothing)
Cleita
(75,480 posts)DUer who is a Catholic basher. If you followed the threads you would have known that. I actually am not as fond of the Church as people might believe and no I don't care for the new guy either. I'm originally from South America so I know what he's about. However, to view all the vitriol that has been going on here in the past week and still call ourselves the good guys isn't very progressive IMHO. I'm kind of shocked though that al lot of it's coming from the LBGT community. You'd think they would understand exactly what bigotry is when you are on the receiving end of it.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)I was referring to another long time, prolific DUer. Why are you surprised at the LBGT community? They take it on the chin from almost every religious institution, with the exception of Wiccans, the Left side of Episcopalians, some of the progressive Baptists and Methodists. The Catholic Church has never been kind to their civil rights.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I know. They were my teachers, and my priests. The Catholic Church isn't always kind to anyone's civil rights.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)That is the point. People are sick of it.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)are jerks there in high places?
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)very few posts have dumped on Catholics as individuals.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)People on DU sound off about the policies and hierarchy of the Church. They feel that they and/or their fellow citizens and/or people around the world are oppressed by this institution. They say stuff on the Internet. That's basically the end of it.
The Church, on the other hand, goes on the attack and throws the money, power and weight of a very old and ruthless institution behind public policy. That's not the end of it. Real people's lives are affected and ruined.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)destroy what civil rights they have gained, and prevent others from being instituted. That's cute.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Whatever is written in some Opus Dei mags is not the mainstream thinking in the Church and yes I agree any activism in that direction should be stopped. But trust me, attacking me, isn't going to get you there.
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)One need only attend a marriage equuality rally in MN.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)family, bullying, etc. no, it is strictly a mental health issue with the gay person, and Cleita would know, they have a gay cousin who didn't commit suicide.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Why not cut and paste and put in quotes exactly what I said so people don't have to get it filtered through your kidneys and bowels.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Cleita
Really, don't you think suicidal tendencies are more a medical issue than religious one? How many people don't often get support from their parents for what choices they make in life. Do they all try to commit suicide? One of my cousins was gay and the only family member who accepted him was me and we are a family of various religious traditions. His own father disowned him but not because of religious beliefs. He did not try to commit suicide and lived his gay life style as he pleased. Some family members came around and some didn't and he was estranged from his father the rest of his life. It's life and has little to do with what religious beliefs people have.
There, happy now? I even posted the entire thing, subject line and all, no edits on my part,, outside of line edits to integrate the subject line to the body, its the full context that allows the ugliness to bleed through.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I have never known a Catholic to, but I have witnessed others doing it and I did tell them off.
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)She was with others includind a priest. You are aware that there is a large campaign in MN to deny marriage equality, right? It is heade by the Archbishop, who has many, many lay supporters. Fortunately, the good folks won.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I don't condone that kind of bigotry either and that Archbishop deserves to get a bag of mail denouncing him.
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)He also got many checks from local parishioners. Some of the check writers were regulars at marriage equality rallies, complete with hateful language and signs. That you are unaware of something does not mean it does not happen. Some Catholics in your own area were very loud supporters of Prop. 8. You may have missed them.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I have three huge megachurches withing walking distance. They all supported Prop. 8.
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)Most people learn not to use that argument as children. It does not make it OK if others are doing the same wrong thing. It never has.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)
You are a self important and smug with no redeeming attributes to dare judge and snoot down your nose at others, which you do with a regular basis.MineralMan
(151,180 posts)I said that the argument was a childish one. And so it is. That's a very different thing. I'm given to understand that you are old enough to receive Social Security, based on your own posts. So, you are obviously not a child. I'm also on Social Security.
I didn't say you were anything. Your post is the one containing a personal attack, not mine.
I hope you have a pleasant morning.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)You called me a child any way you look at it.
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)It's all yours.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)early age, in my case from a liberal Catholic education, that all human beings are equal, never subscribed to the hate speech spewed by far too many people, both religious and non-religions, at rallies, on the internet and elsewhere.
I thank my Catholic upbringing as it taught me to never judge another person as a 'sinner' until I first looked in the mirror. Jesus, who IS after all, the founder of the Catholic 'movement' never once mentioned abortion or Gays or any of the 'issues' so-called Christians are so obsessed over. From my experience with Catholics, those who hatefully attack any group of people, are not Christians, they are merely using a title to try to give themselves some credibility.
So anyone claiming to be a Catholic, which means they follow Christ, spewing hateful language against anyone, is not a Catholic or a Christian of any kind. They may CLAIM to be, but they are not.
Until someone shows me Christ bashing Gays, calling them pedophiles, sinners etc. I will continue to challenge the claims of anyone spewing that kind of hate speech to being followers of the man whose name they have no right to use. At least some people spew the hate without attaching themselves to any religion. Not that that is any excuse for the hate, but at least they are not claiming to be something they are not.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)Several, I am sorry to say. Openly ugly.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)bigotry. I just dumped a boyfriend because his conversation was openly hostile to Mexicans. I was sure the gay and Catholic bashing was sure to come so I dumped him. If I ever witnessed that I would tell them off. I pretty offended by the gay thing happening to me today. Back in the seventies, when I was a bartender, I made sure that our gay customers were welcome and that they weren't harassed by the other customers. So I'm actually very hurt.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)to get money for grad school...her two bosses were from upstate NY....Catholics, and openly hostile. She did what she could to shut them up while she was at work. That was over a decade ago- in a very LGBT friendly area.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I remember all the bigotry back in my working days, especially against Afr. Amer. in the workplace. It really makes it hard to work in those circumstances. My bosses in the bar were very liberal. They hired the first black bartender when it wasn't done back then in that neighborhood. They also welcomed gays, hippies, professors bikers, beachniks as clientele as well. Sometimes we had to separate the hippies from the guys with three piece suits but it pretty much was pretty cool.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)I'd be fine with that.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I recommend a few months spent at a library reading on religious wars.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)In fact if all of those quitting joined more progressive churches, many of which are now losing members and influence, the net effect would be great. Considering that this is what I did I'm not going to tell anyone else it's a bad idea. Quitting the Catholic Church was fantastic for me, so my recommendation obviously would be to do it.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Really...
The ignorance and yes....bigotry...is astounding.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)For an example of a different type of country, Brazil has had plenty of conversions to Protestantism in recent years, (it's up to something like 15% Protestant now) with no real social strife because of this.
In some parts of Mexico, ISLAM of all things is becoming popular and many indigenous peoples are converting to it. I'd say this ranks pretty low down on the list of reasons for any strife in Mexico.
That said though, while the world is not limited to the US, the question legitimately can be limited to that when directly only toward Catholics in the US (or simply to the developed world if directed toward Catholics in the developed world, which it's safe to say anyone posting on this message board is.)
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Is not going to lead to some serious trouble. Ignorance, chips and bigotry are not a good combination.
It seems to me that you are happy in your bigotry, which is driven by the bigotry of the hierarchy of a pretty bigoted organization. You know what? Two wrongs do not make a right, but at this point I am leaving you...to your bigotry and chip on your shoulder.
I am astounded, but a wall is easier to have a rational talk with.
I hope some day you will grow up, I mean it, and realize that living by the Golden Mean is actually good.
Have an excellent day.
zappaman
(20,627 posts)The poster brought up some interesting questions and discussion without being condescending, but all you can do is insult and talk down to them.
Why are you calling this poster a bigot? What did they say to warrant the accusation?
Have an excellent day.
corneliamcgillicutty
(176 posts)think I'm reading a draft of an SNL skit.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)No.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)
earthside
(6,960 posts)Comparing the two is a false analogy.
Frankly, the better comparison is between organizations.
For instance, you can continue as a member/supporter of the Boy Scouts of America in spite of their stance on homosexuality, or you can quit and find a more progressive organization.
An individual maybe be born into a family with tradition in the Roman church, but age and acquired knowledge gives anyone in this country of 'freedom of religion' the ability, the power, and the right to quit any religion and join or not join another. In other words, no one is born a Catholic or a Lutheran or a Jew or a Buddhist ... an adult certainly has freedom of choice.
I've lived my life being as authentic with my beliefs as I can -- not all organizations are going to perfectly line-up with all of my beliefs and principles -- but there are limits. So, it frankly is just very difficult for me to comprehend how some one stays a member of a church/organization with such an odious history and theology as the Roman church. However, I certainly respect a person's right to be a member of just about any church or group they want.
If you think the Roman Church's history of support and justification of genocide is okay, well stay a member. If you believe sincerely that rigid, uncompromising hierarchical patriarchy is 'god's' will, well this is the church for you. If your have a problem with equal rights for gays is the way of heaven, then Catholicism is certainly your group. If despite all the things like this that you might disagree with, but this is grandma's church so I have to stay, well then stay ... but be honest about the superficiality of your adherence.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)why is the Catholic Church supposed to be exempt.
No Vested Interest
(5,297 posts)What gives you the right to decide other peoples choices?
Where did you learn that?
Why do you justify it?
What are boundaries?
Does owning and knowing how to use a computer give you the right to bash?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)I hope you are playing devil's advocate, or even just trolling. No one can be this dense.
No Vested Interest
(5,297 posts)and, instead of answers, find an expletive and an insult.
There are known ways to handle long-standing anger, especially the sort of anger that consumes one's time, personality, productivity.
Maybe there could be a forum here just devoted to those in such need.
Anger is not productive.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Here, allow me to illustrate the problem I have with your initial post, maybe it can be productive.
Why do you bash?
When I find an attitude, belief, or action to be abhorrent, for example racism, misogyny, homophobia, etc.
What gives you the right to decide other peoples choices?
I don't have that right, I have the right to judge other people's choices, just as everybody does, its called having an opinion.
Where did you learn that?
From my mother, who, while Catholic, refused to go to church or give it money due to all the same disagreements I have with the church. She wasn't an atheist like me, but she was very strongly opinionated, particularly when it comes to the Popes, wasn't a fan of JPII, nor of Ratzinger, unfortunately she just missed the appointment of the most recent Pope. I will say that, compared to her, I actually have more toned down language.
Why do you justify it?
I don't, I simply do it, no justification needed.
What are boundaries?
Well, I think the Church, and individuals, have a right to their opinions, and I have the right to bash those opinions.
Does owning and knowing how to use a computer give you the right to bash?
No, having a brain and a mouth gives me the right to bash.
I'm plainly puzzled, ideas that are bad ideas are worth bashing, this seems plainly obvious in politics and personal lives, why should religion be any different?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)However, you will not be accorded the same right unless you are in perfect lockstep agreement with him.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Oh, the irony.
Tell that to the fucking pope, the fucking bishops and the fucking cardinals who stomp on people's rights the world over.
Johonny
(26,105 posts)leaving America has REAL consequences
leaving a church... not so much.
So the analogy doesn't really work for me. I know for some people the "church" is a real logical construct and I guess for them the analogy works, but oddly the people they are trying to "gotcha" are exactly the people who will seen absolutely no there, there.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Phillip McCleod
(1,837 posts)..also because unlike tithing to the rcc hierarchy, if i don't pay my taxes then i can be punished and imprisoned. it's a freakin choice to give money to a massive institution that opposes most of one's own progressive political goals.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)We're all members of corrupt organizations. America, any religion, anywhere, Republicans, Democrats, Boy Scouts, all of them.
This pet conceit that because the Catholic church is centralized and long-standing, we get to hate the members as well as the organization is a hair's breadth from rationalized bigotry, and it's bullshit.
I'm an ex-Catholic too, and you need to take a deep breath and consider whether you have slightest idea what you're talking about before telling people to shut up.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)every year. It IS a difficult thing to do, some even die, eg, trying to get into THIS country, still they do it.
So no, it is not a stupid analogy at all.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)I was baptized Cathoic but ever since I could reason I did not believe it's teachings.
I went to Catholic grade school, high school and college. I got a good private school education with catechism to boot.
When ever something about the Church did not make sense to me and I asked one of my teachers I was told not to question it or it was a mystery or God can do anything.
These answers did not satisfy me and when I began to understand about superstitions the Catholic Church seemed to fit the definition of superstition and today that is how I see the Church. My brother is a priest and i see him as a kind of a witch doctor but I would never tell him that.
So my question to you is this. Is what I just posted Catholic bashing?
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Dig it up yourself, but, really, how much is necessary before people are permitted to complain? I've been slow-boiling over this for a few days. There's a malicious, asinine little conceit I've seen many times here that goes something like
a) Religion is a choice,
b) It doesn't matter if you support what the Church has said or done, because religious law speaks for everyone and is immutable, so
c) Mere membership or self-identification as a Catholic implicates in the various crimes and ignorant dogma of Catholicism.
Do you know anyone who's still Catholic? I do. Hard to find a pedophile protector or a gay basher, or hell, even a birth-control opponent among them.
So, yeah, there's some bullshit that needs to be called out.
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)There are a number of people who abhor the Roman Catholic Church's insistence on denying the rights of individuals, whether they are Catholics or not. The positions of the RCC on women's equality, LGBT equality, contraception, and their tardy repudiation of the horrible pedophilia scandal spark contempt among many who consider those things important.
No, there aren't many here who bash members of the laity of the Catholic Church. There are many, though, who find the organized hierarchy of that church to be contemptible.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)abuse" and similar.
So, no. There are some people who limit themselves to legitimate criticism, and there are some to whom the phrase "Catholic bashers" unquestionably applies.
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)They do not reflect the majority of DUers. Just as those on DU who have a firearms fetish do not reflect DUers as a whole. I am someone who has contempt for the Roman Catholic hierarchy, but no such contempt for those who are simply Catholics. Still, some have accused me of Catholic bashing.
Look at DU as a whole, and not at individual DUers as representatives of DU.
Donald Ian Rankin
(13,598 posts)MineralMan
(151,180 posts)If you look only at the examples of those who are writing things you do not like and expand that to create the idea that many are doing so, you distort the actual facts. I can only control what I write, not what others write. If you take a broader view, you will see less of what you are complaining about.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)That's not bigotry, that's fact.
How do you think the Catholic Church financed it's support of Proposition H8 and other anti-LGBT-marriage initiatives across the country? Only part of that money was from investments or wealthy donors. A lot of that money can be traced right back to offerings taken in Sunday church services.
There seems to be a disconnect - people think that the antics of the homophobic, misogynistic, child-abusing hierarchy of the RCC has no bearing on the every-day activities of the laity. I'm not questioning the motives of lay-Catholics - they're nice people, and a lot of them support GLBT rights, and abhor child-molestation. But when they keep putting money in those collection plates, guess what - some of that money's not going to food banks, hospitals and homeless shelters. It's going to fund things that are far more reprehensible.
So excuuuuse me for asking people to stop enabling that shit.
cordelia
(2,174 posts)Classy how you yourself just recently used a verse from the Bible, 1 Corinthians: 13 to bash all Christians, not just Catholics.
But I guess you didn't really mean it that way, just like you really really really didn't mean to be such a gay basher back in the day.
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)am an atheist. You misread or misinterpreted. I gave up Christianity for Lent in 1965.
LAGC
(5,330 posts)I mean, its not like the laity elects its cardinals and bishops, let alone the pope. They really don't seem to care what the "rabble" thinks. At least we, as Americans, have a vote once every 2 or 4 years, where we can get rid of our leaders if we don't like what they are doing in our name.
The only way I see that the Church hierarchy will ever change is if the money stops flowing into the Vatican, or if their membership stops growing.
Yet pointing that out gets you labeled the B-word.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)No one, including Priests, can change the church from the inside. I don't even know how much the Pope can really do.
Only one thing has ever changed the Church, and that was finding themselves on the brink of total destruction as happened in the early 1500's. Even then it is questionable how fundamental these changes actually were.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)interviewed on one of the liberal shows on TV. I forget which one. I watch so many. He says that the Church will change when the majority of Catholics indicate they want certain things changed. No they don't have a vote but they rely very much on their members goodwill and generosity to exist, so Catholics, are you up to the challenge?
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)They haven't.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)Historically, the lesson we have is nonviolent resistance in the form of boycotts, strikes, or people creating their own networks to bypass providing money to institutions that continue to discriminate against them.
If members of the church were to make such a public demonstrations - WOW. That would get attention and would illustrate to the rest of the world that the church is not the leadership.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)When I was in school, we held a boycott, because of some issue I don't even remember now. They listened. In order to get real change there has to be a movement to push the Church into action. Vatican II didn't come out of a vacuum. It was Catholics in large numbers who were unhappy about some things and pushing for change, but like the anti-war protests of the fifties Catholics didn't keep pushing and dropped the ball.
It's a little more difficult in the Church because it's not a nation worldwide and it's not a democracy, but even Church doctrine teaches about the body of Christ being all the Catholics around the world, which means there is an implication of the power of the people there that theologians have to pay attention to.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Care to ask why?
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)they will as will all the other Churches. I really want charity funding from our Treasury to stop. It opened the door to allowing them to start meddling with our policy because there are certain things the charities don't want to do like dispense birth control pills or provide access to abortions. This is why they want to change policy so they don't have to.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Is the modern day Church the same as the Church of Galileo's time?
Nope.
It does change, it is just slllooooowwwww.
And yes, it was the laity and liberals in the Church that did that.
For that matter the church is not the same one of the late 19th century fighting positivism
The most radical. And in fast, series of changes was Vatican II, which actually increased input from the laity.
But change will be slow for another reason...the priorities of Catholics in the US and Europe re t times different from the economic south. That is here the Church is currently growing, FYI.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)There is no voting on anything by Catholic laity. It is not a democracy and Rome will not change. The solution is to just plain leave it and find another religion, or none, that better suites your philosophy. I cannot understand what the big deal there is over that.
There used to a formal petition to Rome to have yourself removed as member. They shut that down a few years ago. Perhaps they were getting too many requests to leave?
Tikki
(15,129 posts)the church or catholics. The priest who came to speak to me was clueless and what he said had
no bearing on the situation. He was naive not malicious.
I have no interest in the catholic church. I have met people who identify themselves as catholic that I
can like and those whom I do not have any emotional feelings toward.
It is what it is.
Tikki
Cleita
(75,480 posts)the Church has developed warts and flaws. I'm not a Catholic anymore because I'm a non-believer, but when I went to Catholic school my experiences were more positive than negative, so to bash the billions of members of a Church because of the activities of a small percentage is nothing more than underlying bigotry and nothing else.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)people here bashing membership, nor belief. I have seen many bashing the antiquated hierarchy of an institution that has created so much poverty because of their stance on birth control, abortion, marriage....and poverty of the soul by their stance on gay rights, etc. Yes, the Catholic charities do much to alleviate problems of poverty...but, in a very real way...causing that poverty at the same time.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)I support gay bashing or some nonsense like that because I support Catholics. I never supported Catholics other than their right to exist and to have the truth said about them not lies. And you are spreading this meme that Catholics spread poverty too? No they don't. They have been at the forefront of protecting workers rights and union rights for a couple of centuries now. The only poverty they support is among their clergy so that they don't have a big interest in material things and that they take a vow for along with their vows of chastity and obedience.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)JanMichael
(25,725 posts)of poverty and death? Cleita...this was/ is a huge issue....do you not remember when Pope JPII and Mother Theresa declared that birth control in the face of a huge population/ AIDS issue in Africa was still against the Catholic tradition? How can you write that?
You think having numerous children isn't a cause of poverty for some families in the US, and other countries?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)just all of it. Most Catholics use birth control and the parish priest knows it. Also, the Catholic way of family planning is to have your children and then get an operation that sterilizes one or both parties. You go to confession and the priest forgives you. Done. It's the use of artificial birth control methods that are the sticky issue. I wish the Church would change on this issue and they can. Birth control was never an issue in the Church until the middle of the nineteenth century when one of the Popes wrote an encyclical about it, I believe one of the Piuses. Up until then it was considered a woman's issue between her and the midwives. It can be changed. But family planning, the rythm system, have been around as long as I remember.
Not all Catholics agreed with JP and Mother Teresa on what they said that and that includes many of the clergy. The last Pope made a statement that condoms should be used to prevent aids.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)The pontiff made the comments in a book-length interview with a German journalist, Light of the World: The Pope, the Church and the Signs of the Times, which is being released Tuesday. The Vatican newspaper ran excerpts on Saturday.
Church teaching has opposed condoms because they're a form of artificial contraception although it has never released an explicit policy about condoms and HIV. The Vatican has been harshly criticized in light of the AIDS crisis.
Benedict said that for male prostitutes — for whom contraception isn't the central issue — condoms are not a moral solution. But he said they may be used "in the intention of reducing the risk of infection."
You shouldn't lie about his remarks - whether intentionally or not.
He thought it was fine for FEMALE prostitutes to die of AIDS because they might be able to get pregnant if they used condoms.
This is a perfect example of the SEXISM that is DOCTRINE of the church and no mental gymnastics change that.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)That's promising. Also, the Pope doesn't deal with people at the parish level. Those parish priests who are dealing with the prostitutes and others in his parish are not pushing these memes. They are more concerned about the real problems their parishioners are confronted with. You can be sure there is a lot of forgiveness going on in the confessional. You go to your priest and confess you used condoms and had sex with your wife last week. You want to take communion at Mass Sunday morning so you need to be in a State of Grace. The priest forgives you. Tells you to say three Hail Marys and to go foward and sin no more. However, he knows you are going to be back in the confessional next Saturday because you had sex with your wife and used condoms. There is a reason confessions are on Saturday before Sunday.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)But when they are part of a group testifying before Congress to allow them to discriminate against women because of their religious beliefs - THAT is when they cross the line into coercion based upon their religious beliefs.
It actually makes me MORE DISGUSTED to hear all the talk about "but priests just tell their congregants to nevermind."
Why don't those same priests tell their bishops to shut the fuck up and stop interfering with women who don't have any use for their religion but might be in their employ?
The conscience objection among the bishops looks like just that much more BULLSHIT when the unofficial reality is that their own parishioners don't give a fuck what they think but don't have the courage to stand up for others who would be subject to unwanted pregnancies because of the official line.
Again, this isn't about the private actions of people within the church - it's the SUPPORT FOR AN ORGANIZATION THAT SYSTEMATICALLY DISCRIMINATES AND WANTS THE U.S. GOVT. TO SANCTION THIS.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)that, so I'm not supporting what they stand for. What I am doing is seeing a lot of untrue stuff being thrown out there and I think in the spirit of trying to keep things as factual as we can here on DU, I may seem like I'm defending practices I don't agree with but I have to defend against unwarranted accusations and out and out hate rhetoric. That never leads to good. Now as far as this organization wanting the US govt to sanction this, it's up to us as Americans to start pressuring our elected politicians to start enforcing the separation of Church and State and I mean all Churches not just Catholics.
Also, somewhere back in the Bush administration our government started giving Churches money for charity. I totally disagree with this. If they want to run charities, fine, but let them beg for the money from donors. Our Treasury should not be supporting this, but I think here is the root of the problem. Back when I was in school the Church was very much for the separation of Church and state because they felt that if religion and government started merging, it wouldn't be a religion we might want running our affairs. Now that they are getting money the distinction is getting blurrier and blurrier.
So if you don't want religion in government start making your representatives stand up for the Constitution or vote in new ones.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)Obama renamed it, but Americans are still giving tax dollars to religious institutions that routinely discriminate against them, talk in their houses of worship to support right wing candidates, and then claim they are being discriminated against when they are expected to follow the law of the land where they receive federal funds to continue their misogyny and homophobia.
These same religions (not just Catholic - I don't single out one religious group - it's the ideology that is my problem) have contributed to deaths in other nations by insisting on denying condoms as part of foreign aid, when the purpose of those condoms is to stop the spread of AIDS in places like Africa - where females suffer tremendously from AIDS.
I did vote against the candidate in my state who wanted to deny the separation of church and state. I have participated in rallies for choice for decades. If someone's personal belief is that all abortion is wrong - I respect that and would never insist they change their opinion to fit mine. I don't think abortion is wrong under the Roe v. Wade policy. I was offered the option of abortion when my son could have been born with severe problems and I rejected that choice. My son is autistic and I had been exposed to measles when I was pregnant.
It's when that person or organization insists their belief must be the only one respected that I have a problem.
http://www.longviewinstitute.org/research/joffe/religiousrightandsexuality
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)I am not sure what is going on here-- but, "lying" is a pretty strong word. I do know that the issues with the Church run deep--- and those of us outside of it have a tough time understanding it. I will say this: I don't get the attitudes this time around.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)That's what was a lie.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Cleita
(75,480 posts)crap you are throwing at me. I have already put a post up about you in the Ask the Administrators forum. Your attacks have been relentless.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)What is a gay lifestyle?
C'mon, answer honestly.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)and that's in the words of gays, not my words. What you are thinking parties, bath houses and stuff like that? My cousin has a life long partner that he fell in love with when they were in the Air Force. They have been together ever since and we are all in our seventies. I never though being gay was choice. Do you jump to conclusions a lot? Or is it that you don't understand English.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)How many people don't often get support from their parents for what choices they make in life. Do they all try to commit suicide? One of my cousins was gay and the only family member who accepted him was me and we are a family of various religious traditions. His own father disowned him but not because of religious beliefs. He did not try to commit suicide and lived his gay life style as he pleased. Some family members came around and some didn't and he was estranged from his father the rest of his life. It's life and has little to do with what religious beliefs people have.
As far as the lifestyle thing, many gays and gay allies have viewed that with suspicion, its a homophobic code word, thought you would know that. You pissed me off with this post, not to mention dismissing the pain of millions of LGBT people. You are an insensitive jackass who doesn't belong on this board.
Also, I never said religion was a sole cause for suicides among gay teens or adults, but religion is a major contributing factor.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)It's widely used, and by gays maybe not in your group but what else should we use? I have a single lifestyle. Should I be offended? My neighbors have a couple's lifestyle. Are they offended? My gym buddies have an athletic lifestyle. They are not offended. Maybe in your neck of whatever woods you come out of. However, instead of going all crazy, rude and hurtful, explain that to me. I got into trouble here once over the word uppity. It's a word we use about people getting up on their high horse. I guess in the South is a bad word directed towards Af. Amer..
You have accused all religions as being everything that has been hurtful to you and your friends. I'm sorry but when lifestyles and other shit go around, in the end life is what you make of it. I too am a minority and know what discrimination is about. I too have been held back by conventions and laws. I had to watch friends of mine get hurt from illegal abortions and yes the Churches are trying to take us back to those days I know that. But killing those institutions, which you would like, isn't going to change things. Hostilities only make things worse. It's getting involved that will change things.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)You should apologize.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)That quote deserves a double facepalm.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Your posts make my skin crawl with the bigoted words and dismissive attitude and your claim that groups that oppose our rights are not anti gay nor bigoted.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)DU. Never mind that I had made many gay friends here over the years here on DU whom I have met in person, Andy Stephenson and nothingshocksmeanymore among them and others I have interacted with on pms. I was truly not aware that the word was offensive being as I haven't used it in the past since the subject of lifestyle never came up, so I guess I dodged a bullet. But being that is it a word in the English language that seems to be perfectly acceptable in all connotations except among your community, I erred. I hope you publish a dictionary of terms we aren't supposed to use one of these days especially if they aren't the usual swear words. Then if I used it deliberately you would have a right for your skin to crawl. Maybe I can do the same to point out all the offensive words that have been directed to the Hispanic community on the Hugo Chavez threads, etc. that are ordinary words in most uses.
I am also truly sorry that those groups you are so adamant are opposing your rights, are also the very ones that might get them for you if you connect with those members who do agree that your rights are being infringed on and who are fighting the Opus Dei and other factions from the inside. Trust me, I want them to change their minds on a lot of women's issues myself.
That being said, I don't think I can interact with your community anymore here on DU. I'm very disappointed and hurt. I hope you get everything you want. I just won't be involved in helping you anymore because more than anything now I realize I'm an outsider and unwelcome.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)you decide you can't "help" the GLBT community anymore?
Why not just learn from what they're trying to tell you?
Cleita
(75,480 posts)to sanction their attacks, many of half truths and out and out lies on DU Catholics. I used an offensive term to them that I didn't know was offensive and apologized. I would defend them the same if they were being attacked here on DU with half truths and lies. But you say I have to learn to do it their way or the highway. And I can't help them anymore because they would not welcome it. They told me. They want me to go. They want me banned. They told me. I hope that when all the diversity disappears from this board and everyone is in lockstep with each other, you all realize you have become what you despised.
We have lost many good DUers who posted worthwhile information, and who had a finger on current events many of us could only get from the media and who had to leave because they were mocked and harassed by those who didn't agree with them. They finally got fed up and left.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Are you gay?
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)1. we don't have choice in our country of birth unlike our choice of religion
2. Catholics can denounce their church and find another church that worships the same god easily. Immigration however is not in the least bit easy or for most people even possible.
I don't really care how much you want to value a homophobic and misogynistic institution but please stop pretending one cannot leave it much like one cannot leave ones country.
Such BS.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)As far as the claim, however - I did look into leaving the U.S. during the Bush era and would've if I could've. I've applied for jobs in other countries. I left the church I grew up because its doctrines are homophobic and sexist (and lies, but whatever. some people find comfort in lies.) I had family members who left the Catholic church because of its teaching and impact upon their lives and the lives of people they love. Many here have talked about walking away from sexist and homophobic religious institutions.
The analogy is a joke but it's not funny.
I liken the people on DU who are complaining that others are asking them about their choices to someone who was a member of the Augusta Golf Club. They enjoyed the social contact, probably the professional boost it gave them, and they like the sport and the activities around it. Don't question their membership even tho women were excluded.
The claim that someone will change the church from within is also a joke - which everyone knows who knows anything about the way in which the church is organized.
Yes. Such BS.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)They're really reaching now, because they know their stance is indefensible.
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)to seriously compare leaving a religion with leaving a country... it's just a terrible analogy. It's easy to leave the Catholic Church compared to leaving a country, especially if you don't have a lot of resources. It just shows the incredible privilege the religious have to compare leaving their belief to leaving a country. It's incredible. Religion is a belief system, a country is not. There are sooo many differences, too many to list really. You can't vote in your religion, you don't have elected representatives, nobody taxes you.... I could go on.
And yes, there is a difference between being a member of an organization voluntarily and being inducted into a social contract from birth as a "citizen", one which entails being subject to laws and the use of force.
So no, it IS really different.
What's NOT any different would be a better analogy. You're raised in the KKK, you like the culture and tradition but don't agree with the official heirarchy or positions the KKK takes, but you still remain a member, keeping an "ideal" KKK in your own head as the reason to stay. There's a good analogy.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Two recent examples:
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/50827890/ns/politics/
U.S. Roman Catholic bishops stepped up their battle against President Obama's contraceptives policy on Friday by urging Congress to use its fiscal debate to free religious employers from a mandate requiring insurance coverage for birth control...
http://mynorthwest.com/11/659971/Catholic-Church-steps-up-local-efforts-to-stop-gay-marriage
The battle over same sex marriage in our state is taking a big step from the political arena to the pulpit, as the Catholic Church has formally endorsed signature gathering at local parishes in the effort to overturn the state's recently passed marriage equality law...
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)I like the culture and tradition! C'mon, what's wrong with identifying myself with a bigoted institution? I mean, gees, if you're going to criticize me for that, why don't you leave America! Hypocrite!
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)JanMichael
(25,725 posts)More church-y than some of the Catholics....and 1/3 less guilt.
Junior Varsity Catholics.
Rowdyboy
(22,057 posts)Hell, I've got a female Episcopal priest who is maybe a little more liberal than I am.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)I guess it means that charity is more important than stuff like homophobia, misogynism and pedophilia. Or maybe it means its OK to be a homophobe, misogynist, and child molester as long as you do a lot of charity work too. Not really sure I want to know what that poster meant because tha reply made me sick.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Only 3% comes from in parish donations.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)There are bad Catholics, there are Catholics that abuse young children. But those types of people exist in all religions. There are beautiful aspects of Catholicism that aren't exactly matched in Protestant religions. Catholic priests were prominent in the struggle for civil rights. Catholic charities are among the most active charities in our society. And a Latin Mass is one of the most beautiful ceremonies that I have witnessed in my life.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)and a vessel. Not beautiful. Not beautiful at all. My blood was boiling. I wanted to tell the priests to go fuck themselves, but decorum prevented it ...
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)as those differences don't lead to violence?
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)sibelian
(7,804 posts)A "vessel"? Sorry, I'm entirely ignorant of Catholicism, what do those things mean?
MineralMan
(151,180 posts)That's what those words mean, essentially.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)ability to serve his needs and carry his child (in my vessel-like womb, apparently)...'cuz it's in mythology collection from 2,000 years ago.
caraher
(6,359 posts)This one is no exception, but it's not one to dismiss out of hand.OK, it doesn't cost money to leave the RC church the way it does to move. So we exempt those who can't afford to emigrate from consideration.
That still leaves plenty of people who are critical of the US and have the means to leave. I think the "you can choose your religion but not your native country" argument is very weak - a fairer comparison is that you choose neither your native country nor the religious tradition you may have been brought up with.
And for those with strong religious beliefs, there is a very intense emotional attachment to a church, often stronger than the emotional attachment to a nation called "patriotism." Don't imagine for a moment that it's easy for a Catholic to leave the church on principle.
It's even hard for those who lack strong religious beliefs. Heck, I haven't really believed church doctrine for 30 years and don't really consider myself Catholic, but there's still a very strong emotional tug - I feel abandoned when I look at today's increasingly conservative church, yet a bit like a traitor for not being part of it and doing what I can to change it (despite an utter lack of belief in Christianity). And I'll always have a sense of right and wrong shaped by my upbringing in the church (12 years of Catholic school and weekly Mass).
I respect every individual decision on this, whether it's to turn their back on the Church or remain and try to force it to live up to its best ideals. We need the likes of Sr. Simone Campbell out there!
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)the criteria that other countries set forth for citizenry? Or language barriers? Thanks. There are a few other considerations for leaving a country than how much one has in the bank. The only consideration for leaving a church is "am I in the mood," and "what will my mother think."
Hardly the same.
caraher
(6,359 posts)The point is there are certainly people capable of leaving the US who are critical of the US and choose not to. I do agree that doesn't describe a lot of people.
So once we're down to those folks, should we say they betray their professed values by remaining Americans? I think it's a personal decision. For some, yes, for some no.
At the same time, it's too simplistic to say that leaving a church is about inclination and family pressure. For many it is, for many there is much more at stake. Just because for you it may be like choosing Coke or Pepsi doesn't mean the decision has the same emotional (in)significance for everyone.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)Being chained by the cliched guilt of an institution? Agnostic/ wife: cradle to the grave Episcopalian. She isn't afraid to question beliefs...or the hierarchy/ history of her denomination.
caraher
(6,359 posts)I wrote based on your statement, "The only consideration for leaving a church is "am I in the mood," and "what will my mother think." It sounds like you are asserting that, apart from family pressure, it's really not a deeply-felt choice ("am I in the mood" .
The whole point I'm making, really, is that this is truly a "your mileage may vary" situation. Not everyone has the same kind of attachment/non-attachment, ability to question received beliefs, etc. and thus a blanket statement to the effect that the "only consideration" for leaving a church is such-and-such is never going to be accurate, whether you make it or I make it.
caraher
(6,359 posts)Overall I've concluded the RC church is doing more harm than good and even were I a believer I'd feel a strong obligation to dissociate myself from it. But it's just not always an easy thing to do. And actually, from an emotional perspective, I think it would be a lot easier for me to move to, say, Canada, than shop for another church if I felt the need for one.
I think the real point of the OP was not to be excessively harsh with people who have too much trouble letting go.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)The being unable to go to a non-Catholic church if you ever wanted to sounds kind of strange. Legitimately curious here. There was a long time when I didn't go to any church and never had any real intentions, but my mindset was that if I ever did decide to go one criteria would be that it would NOT be Catholic. From an emotional perspective that's something I wouldn't be able to sustain.
I actually haven't attended a Catholic church in over a decade now, and have never felt anything missing, or any regret.
caraher
(6,359 posts)It's not as if I haven't been in other churches and when I am, I do think unfamiliarity does play a role. It would probably be easier, actually, to deal with something very different (e.g. a non-Christian setting) because there wouldn't be a sense of something feeling familiar yet just a little bit "off."
I guess my motivation for ever attending any kind of Christian church is deeply tied to wanting to return to a certain part of my childhood (which included a fairly liberal Catholic parish), and it's hard to imagine that feeling coming from another denomination's rituals.
I guess I have a similar reaction to the thought of non-Christian religion. For instance, while I do have a substantial affinity for a lot of what I read of Buddhist thought and practices, the notion of my actually adopting them feels somehow "forced" and artificial to me.
I'm also very hesitant to try new foods.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Actually, leaving Catholic Church doesn't even require THAT much effort.
Mostly all it involves is the decision to sleep in on Sundays. It really is that easy.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Religions. They are all backward on social issues.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that it is acceptable to say all kinds of nasty things about the Church itself, which is lead by reactionary bigots?
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)It is as silly as saying that we shouldn't criticize Republicans who VOTE Republican because in their hearts they might not believe all the things they voted for.
It comes down to this: you own the organizations and activities you support, and the only valid argument against this is the claim of ignorance.
Kolesar
(31,182 posts)You want your foils to have to defend their posts to establish they were not "catholic bashing".
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Ignoring the Vatican (thanks mussolini) the RCC is an organization that one can join, or not, give money to, or not. You don't have to pack your bags and emigrate to quit the church.
Ichingcarpenter
(36,988 posts)that rules the 1.3 billion.
The roman empire and their
survival through the Vatican.
My father is catholic my mother was not.
I"ve got stories up to a cardinal on shit I've experienced.
I've also experieced the good side from some valiant priests.... but they never changed the church
Believe what you want to believe, but keep your religion out of my life and politics.
Render under Caesar.
UTUSN
(77,692 posts)*************QUOTE************* [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"] [/FONT]
http://www.salon.com/2013/03/16/is_pope_francis_a_fraud/
Saturday, Mar 16, 2013 12:30 PM CDT
[font size=5]Is Pope Francis a fraud?
After a [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]right-wing coup crushed the reforms[/FONT] of Vatican II, one scholar says the [FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: yellow"]last two popes are illegitimate[/FONT] [/font]
I’m a “legacy Catholic,” or ancestral Catholic, rather than the genuine article; my parents were both previously married and declined to come crawling back and undergo the necessary humiliation. Then again, as the former Dominican priest, radical theologian and bestselling author Matthew Fox told me in a recent phone conversation, a large number of the 1.2 billion believers the church claims are “disaffiliated Catholics, ex-Catholics, Catholics with one foot in and one foot out.” Like many of those people, I’m not immune to all the emotion and adulation being poured onto the new pope just because I think it’s misplaced. More than anything else, that passion is the enduring, if confusing, legacy of Vatican II, the historic reform council of 1962–65 that promised all sorts of big changes within Catholicism that never quite came to pass.
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OldDem2012
(3,526 posts)....so you want everyone who has posted such criticism to renounce their US citizenship and move abroad??
What the HELL is that all about???
The last time I looked, this is still a country that allows one to voice a personal opinion without fear of the kind of crap you're proposing. But, that's not the case with the RCC, is it? You either go along with the official church dogma, or you get the heck out.
You can love the "ideal" of the RCC all you want, but you're not going to tell me what I can, or cannot, be critical about.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)start a campaign to make getting out of dumbfuckistan easy. Your church has got the money and the influence to make it happen.
But since I'm sure you have no intention of doing anything here's an another alternative. Your feeling are hurt, so I suggest you seek refuge in the religion forum where there are more than a few like-minded people and the rest of us can more easily ignore you.
Fresh_Start
(11,365 posts)related to the bashing of people who chose to stay in their church.
I understand the draw of religion even if I don't currently practice one.
So I'm not defending the RCC at all, I am defending individuals who are still religious in spite of the failings of their church.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)until you posted this false analogy.
you are contributing to the divisiveness with this post.
People on both sides are, as we see, not going to change their opinions on this. We have to mutually coexist.
That won't happen with such false analogies because you have created a situation which makes others feel required to state the falseness of the analogy.
4 t 4
(2,407 posts)and you must understand the bashing of the church is because they feel really bad, that is how the church makes you feel- lesser than whole that is why they attend, it is true
Fresh_Start
(11,365 posts)more than 25 years ago.
But even now, I feel the pull of my heritage.
Remember that as a child I went to church and learned to pray for 5 years before I ever learned the pledge of allegiance and realized that I was a citizen of the US.
Almost my entire family is still religious so our family celebrations are all religious and a painful occasion.
backscatter712
(26,357 posts)
Apophis
(1,407 posts)You can choose to leave the church and not pay a dime and few repercussions. To leave the country, you need money, a passport, and a job. Plus, they aren't even the same thing.
Fail.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)then they are fair game to be called on that.
Citizenship in a country isn't anything like a voluntary membership.
DCBob
(24,689 posts)most Catholics were raised in the church from their birth. They have roots there.. family, friends.. many are involved in community and social actitivites, they have children in Catholic schools.. its their life. That's not something a person can easily give up because they find out the church organization has non-progressive values.
riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)For example, people have been raised since birth in Rethug households and (gasp!) leave the Rethug party and become Dems or something else. They may have roots, family, friends, community, social activities, and yes, even children in Rethug activities but one day they decide that the Rethug party is corrupt, homophobic, sexist - why just like the Catholic Church!
Interestingly, many remain within the family fold even as they leave the Rethug party behind. Nobody would be called a bigot on DU for questioning a person who remained within the Rethug party....
The fact remains that people leave churches or their original faith group all the time. Some do it painfully, others simply leave. Sooner or later one must take some responsibility for their CHOICE to support and continue a membership within a homophobic, sexist organization.
Membership in the Boy Scouts also comes to mind.
Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)apparently they were brain-washed and can never, ever, ever leave. And we're not talking about "non-progressive" values here. We're talking about backward, harmful, MURDEROUS "values" that have killed millions and consistently repress millions of people all over the globe. Christ on a crutch.
So your level of logical reasoning has been established.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)Seriously it's a real possibility and under consideration.
I don't "believe in America" or have any particular love for this country over any other. I judge it only on how it serves my needs. It does in some ways though other countries could be better.
The Catholic Church did NOT meet my needs in any way, so I judged it to be worthless garbage in my teens, and left it.
No Vested Interest
(5,297 posts)You're in Minnesota, IIRC, fairly near the Canadian border, so the cost shouldn't be too prohibitive.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)a job, etc. It's not a matter of moving from Wisconsin to Florida by any stretch.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)Last edited Tue Mar 19, 2013, 09:15 PM - Edit history (1)
know the first thing about emigration.
There are groups that are favored for immigration according to their job skills, etc. If you have a certain amt. of money, you can go to any nation and live. Most people don't have the kind of money in liquid assets to meet that requirement.
One of the best ways to emigrate is to attend college in another country. Most people I know, whether they went somewhere else or came to the U.S., did so in this way.
This also assumes a level of wealth to make this possible, but in the case of my ex-husband, he received a scholarship to study here and, because his job skills were ones that the U.S. wanted, he was able to get a visa to work here and then a green card.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)news articles, and knowing how hard it is just to come here, would have a better understanding. My wife is a librarian....and that might make it somewhat easier for certain places. Neither of us are bilingual-- which makes it tougher.
We talk about it because of the health care issues in this country-- as I am sure many people do.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)And knowledge of the language is one of them (and in Canada, knowledge of French is one of them, not just English.)
The libraries in Canada stipulate on their employment offerings that first choice is given to someone who is already a citizen, btw.
I speak/read deteriorating French and Dutch. I looked into emigrating to nations that are either French or Dutch speaking. I was married one year after the Belgians rescinded their policy that someone who married a citizen of their nation was automatically a citizen, but my kids can claim Belgian citizenship should they ever want to leave. They also have family members there to live with. Actually, I'm still on very good terms with my ex-in laws. I love my ex's family and they have extended their homes to me if I want to visit. They know what I went through that led me to request a separation.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)yes, we know that libraries in Canada give preference to citizens.
We are pretty much watching the want ads, and just thinking about it; as I said--- the health care system here is frightening....we are heading into middle age.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)I also have an MLS.
On the Canadian emigration test, French language is one of the points they apply - that's for general emigration, not emigration for a particular job.
I went back to school after I was divorced and that was the only time since I was divorced that I have had health care available. I have had to go through every bit of my savings in order to receive healthcare that I could afford because I have an illness that was, in part, brought about by my situation with my ex. My ex, who has quite a bit of money, thanks to his job, threatened to sue me when I was offered jobs outside of a 50 mile radius of where his job was. Yet he also got the best and meanest lawyers where I live to deny his culpability and, ultimately, any form of support.
I would've had to leave my children with someone who was mentally ill to emigrate.
Now I just try to survive.
If you or anyone you know wants to help make that happen, I have books for sale in the DU Marketplace and a link to find other books for sale. Sorry if this sounds like spam, but since we're being honest about things - that's what's up with me and health care and emigration and the U.S. and work. I also do freelance writing and editing (I had a grant from the Nat'l Endowment for the Arts in the past) but, as anyone knows, those things don't pay the bills - but they help.
Best wishes to you and your wife. Canada also looks at the age of someone who wants to emigrate and you lose points the older you get.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)You basically need around $13k in savings to be considered for citizenship of you're not a refugee. Maybe once I get my student loans paid off I can do that.
But I did move to a different state in my life and that was far more difficult than leaving the Catholic Church was for me. So was moving to a different apartment in the same city. Quitting Catholicism is one of the easiest things I ever did. No effort involved.
RainDog
(28,784 posts)You have to have something on the order of 130,000.00, not 13k.
You have to demonstrate that you have enough money to live on for the initial period after the move... I forget how many years of income, but that's where the 130 thousand came in as a stand in for that amt.
If you want to start a business in some nations, you have to hire someone from that nation, even if your business is so small you wouldn't need an employee. Those are some of the conditions I remember.
JanMichael
(25,725 posts)all the time in the Episcopal church....and the library. Many just walk away permanently, and don't really care. What's sad is that so many have stories of weird guilt trips growing up--- some of it almost sounds like emotional abuse. Stepfather is one-- he just frankly an atheist now.
ButterflyBlood
(12,644 posts)Which is actually the polar opposite from Episcopalian (charismatic evangelical). Despite that it is actually quite progressive. Far more than the Catholic Church. And mostly young people, vast majority under 35. Try finding anyone without gray hair at a Catholic church here on the other hand. Not a surprise at all, young folks aren't attracted at all to the rather stale Catholic worship style (which I found hideously boring), and are fans of all that swaying and dancing and waving your hands in the air.
I have joked before that even if the Catholic Church started having women priests and changed its views on gays and birth control I still wouldn't be heading back ever as long as everyone is keeping their hands down at mass!
Walk away
(9,494 posts)for pedophiles to tell me to renounce my citizenship. Most of the things that are wrong with this country are because of the catholic church's influence. Maybe if the catholic church would leave this would be a much better country.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)FYI, I grew up in one. It was not the US.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)
Deep13
(39,157 posts)Giving ones home, family, and livelihood are not the same as not donating to a church. Not even close. Anyway, where exactly should I go? I have no ideal vision of America. It was a country built on genocide, slavery, and exploitation generally. I just live here. The country does not define me. To financially support the RC Church on the other hand is voluntary and actually easier to withhold than to participate.
Add to that the fact that Christianity is built on a series of lies and leaving is a positive benefit to the average Catholic.
Let's put it this way, if I support the USA and the RC Church and both are wrong, is it more wrong or less wrong to stop supporting one of those organizations? Hypocrisy is the wrong word. I'm not telling people to stop supporting the Church while I continue to support it. At worst, it's just inconsistency.
Don't change the subject, it is the RC religion we are bashing, not the average parishioner.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)heck, even most priests aren't.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Zoeisright
(8,339 posts)I mean, the lack of logical reasoning on this topic is just mind blowing. If you can't tell the difference between CITIZENSHIP and voluntarily belonging to a CHURCH, you are beyond help.
It's completely different. No one has to support a church with money, their hearts, or time. I don't think I've ever seen a more stupid false equivalency in my life. Congrats.
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Walk away
(9,494 posts)But you have to expect faulty logic from someone who believes in a religion. Especially when they don't even follow it's rules and could easily switch to a religion better suited to their life style and beliefs. Calling it illogical is being kind.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)When looking for places to deposit ones extra wealth. They could do much worse than the Catholic Church. Were talking climate change denial, profiting from destruction of what is left of our fragile environment, slave labor, drug cartel money laundering, WMD's, fracking, the ever increasing corporate takeover of our government and our world and the list of it goes on and on and on.
I am no fan of the Catholic Church. I am far less of a fan of corporations and the endgame we are all facing from unbridled greed.
hughee99
(16,113 posts)Several people have pointed out all the issues that come up with leaving the country, but how about just the Democratic party.
No one here seems to agree 100% with the things the party does, you don't have to relocate yourself of your family to leave the party, and yet we all continue to support it. Are each of us individually responsible for the positions our party leaders have set out, or is it acceptable to support an organization that you may disagree with on some points, because you still consider it better than the alternative?
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)And you know it.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Taverner
(55,476 posts)I hope you can tell the difference
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)For that would just make me get a big sadz.