The Dalai Lama, a sordid history of Nazi Mentors and forgiving Fascists

[Paul E Ester]

Forgive Pinochet, says Dalai Lama

and

Dalai Lama’s Nazi Friends

As depressing as it may be for the Nobel peace prize winner’s followers, there has been continuous contact between the Dalai Lama and the far right wing and former national socialists (Nazis). His close friendship with his German mentor, Heinrich Harrer has become the most well-known of these. It caused a small scandal in 1997-1998 when, after years of research, the Austrian journalist, Gerald Lehner, succeeded in making public Harrer’s “brown-shirt” (i.e., German fascist) past, which the latter had been able to keep secret for many years. Harrer is not just anybody. He is one of the best-known international authors and has sold over four million books in 57 languages (mostly about Tibet and the Fourteenth Dalai Lama).

http://zenbuddhism.tribe.net/thread/4597a19e-c253-4589-acf7-9f8a98965c2d

[SidDithers]

1. Hmmm. Interesting...nt

Sid

[liberal_at_heart]

2. Is this what we are doing now? Should I go out and find some insulting article about

an atheist to even things out? Have a nice day. This thread is getting trashed.

[upaloopa]

82. Buddhist do not have a Deity

[FreeState]

85. Most Buddhist do worship Gods

In fact they have many.

http://www.religionfacts.com/buddhism/deities.htm

The Buddha's teachings and Theravada Buddhism are essentially atheistic, although neither deny the existence of beings that might be called "gods."

In Mahayana Buddhism, however, the universe is populated with celestial buddhas and bodhisattvas who are worshipped as gods and goddesses. The historical Buddha is honored in this way, but most other Buddhist deities are adapted from the cultures Buddhism has encountered — from the pantheon of Hinduism to the indigenous religions of Tibet, China and Thailand.

Among the most popular Buddhist deities are Kuan Yin, the Medicine Buddha, the Laughing Buddha and the Green and White Taras. These and other fascinating figures are explored in this section. The list below links to articles that provide information on the history, meaning, significance and iconography of each deity.

FYI Buddhist adherents by tradition:
Mahayana = 56%
Theravada = 38%
Vajrayana = 6%

[TM99]

97. Religion facts is wrong.

Hell, I hate quoting Wikipedia but even this article correctly describes the concept of 'god', 'gods' and theism in Buddhism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Buddhism

Archetypal beings (called devas or Noble Ones and not gods) are venerated as ideals to strive towards not as gods (as we understand it in the West) to be worshiped.

It would take many volumes to accurately describe these tantric concepts in Buddhism which have yes filtered into all forms of native Asian Buddhism due to the indigenous poly-theistic religions which were evolutionarily displaced by the introduction of Buddhism (Bon-po, Shinto, Taoism, etc.) into these countries. However, it is sufficient to state categorically that Buddhism does not concern itself with theism (poly, mono, etc.) in the same way as the West to for all intents in purposes to be atheistic or at least agnostic as we also understand it.

[HiPointDem]

120. there is no pure buddhism polluted by other traditions such as you imagine.

Soyen shaku says you are wrong:

AMONG the many critical opinions which are passed upon Buddhism by Christian or Western scholars, there are two which stand out most conspicuously and most persistently.

One of them declares that Buddhism is a religion which denies the existence of the soul, and the other that it is atheistic or at best pantheistic, which latter term implies what is practically tantamount to the rejection of a God, that is, a personal God as believed in by the Christians.

At the outset, let me state that Buddhism is not atheistic as the term is ordinarily understood. It has certainly a God, the highest reality and truth, through which and in which this universe exists. However, the followers of Buddhism usually avoid the term God, for it savors so much of Christianity, whose spirit is not always exactly in accord with the Buddhist interpretation of religious experience.

Buddhism is the most speculative of all the existing religions in the world and abounds with many highly abstract terms which may sound empty to ordinary minds. Among them we have such words as Tathâtâ (or Tathâtva), Tattva, Bhûtatathâtâ, Bhûtakoti, Çûnyatâ, Alakshitam, Nirvâna, etc. These are all philosophical terms for Dharmakâya.

To explain: Tathâtâ or tathâtva or tattva is "suchness," or "being such," and Buddhist scholars assert that, strictly speaking, these terms alone rightly designate the nature of the highest reality.

When we speak of its absolute transcendentality, people are liable to take it for an empty nothing; while if we state that it is eternally true and real, they may consider it something concrete and particular. To avoid both extremes, or rather to synthesize them, the term "Suchness" has been coined; but in reality all human efforts are altogether
insufficient to express the true nature of the Ultimate.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zfa/zfa04.htm

[TM99]

152. You and I have gotten into such debates in the past.

You appear to always have an agenda which you rarely deviate from nor make perfectly clear. You do not demonstrate to me that you read posts in response to you or to others clearly. You often speak of things with a quote that make it sound like you may have understanding, and yet you do not apparently have enough knowledge to speak authoritatively on these things.

And once more, it appears that this is the case again.

FreeState quoted religionfacts.com which said the Theravadin's are atheists and Mahayanins (which Tantric Tibetan Buddhism is a subset of) worship gods and goddesses. Therefore, since there are more Mahayanins by population, then most Buddhists worship gods and goddesses.

That is not an accurate statement about Buddhism and is a logical fail. Even www.religionfacts.com clearly states that it is a one person operation that does its best to source information but to always rely on other books and sources for clarifications and elucidations.

I offered a correction by stating Mahayanins, particular Tibetan Vajrayanins, do not 'worship' personal deities like we would consider them in the West. They are archetypes. They are concepts that make up our psychic consciousness. The Buddha and the Buddhism which followed historically is so unconcerned with 'theisms' as the West understands it in any form that saying it is atheistic, which most Westerners might understand, is most accurate.

Now let me address your quote. First of all I will state up front that I am in a Zen Order whose teacher is a Dharma heir of Master Soyen Shoku. Therefore, I have more than a passing understanding of his writings and further still have an experiential understanding of them by virtue of the Zen training I have received.

There is the original teachings of the Buddha which is elucidated in the Pali Canon. Then there is the Theravadin interpretations of those teachings, and there is the Mahayanin interpretations. Finally there is the subset of Mahayanist called Vajrayna, Tantrics or Esoteric Buddhists, which includes Tibetan but also Japanese schools like Shingon. All of the Mahayana sutras, while profoundly inspirational and of great Dharmic value, are not the original sayings or teachings of the Buddha. They are further elucidations of those original teachings often based on the Canon but not entirely. In the particular case of Tantra, there is the further addition of Indian Tantra to the original Buddha's teachings. So yes, there are the original teachings (the Pali Canon) and then there are the later expressions and interpretations (the various Sutras and Tantras). It is your choice of words not mine, to call them polluted or to suggest that I am imagining something which I am not, however, the Buddha was completely unconcerned with God, deities, or any discussion of metaphysical or supernatural forms of reality. I would recommend you read Smith & Novak's Buddhism: A Concise Introduction. It is a short yet excellent scholarly overview of Buddhism that will go into more details on what I share here. Smith is also in the same Zen order so he will confirm what I say as well.

Second, what Master Shoku is discussing here is another elucidation of the conception of nibbana albeit from a Mahayanin Zen perspective. For the Theravadin, nibbana, or enlightenment, is a state of mind and stands in opposition to samsara, another state of mind. For the Mahayanin this is still true but nibbana and samsara while appearing to be opposites are in actuality two sides of a greater ground of being. This is the Dharmakaya that is mentioned in a section you did not quote here. Another way of saying it is 'suchness', ultimate ground of being, Buddha nature, or if you must 'God'. Yet, Buddhists generally avoid the term God for just such reasons as he states. Westerners, including yourself, obviously have a set way of understanding the term and concept. God in the West is a personal singular deity if it is of the Abrahamic religions and multiple personal deities if it is of a pagan religion. God, Jesus, Thor, Hecate, Brigid, etc. all 'exist' as separate from us. To those in the West who do not believe in deities or deity, they are a-theistic. They accept the proposition of god or gods but deny the proof of it or their existence. Mystics in the Western tradition often transcend the limited dualistic view of yes or no and are closer to understanding what Buddhist mean by a 'suchness' described as 'emptiness'. It is beyond intellectualization. It is described in 'is not' rather than 'is' ways and terms. This is God as a Godhead. It is a concept without a personality. It is a metaphor that symbolizes among other things stability, permanence, unborn, unbecoming, ageless, and deathless. It is often called the Good. "The eye with which I see God is the same with which God sees me. My eye and God's eye is one eye, and one sight, and one knowledge, and one love." -- Meister Eckhart

That Godhead is close enough that Mahayana Buddhists like Master Shoku when addressing Westerners will simply call it God as he has done in this particular Dharma teaching so that we may begin to understand and transcend the Western conception of God as personal creator. So, as I stated, but here more clearly and with greater elucidation, if atheism is the absence of a creator God, then yes, Buddhism as a whole (including all schools and traditions) is atheistic. If you understand God to be a term to describe the ultimate Reality, then yes, God can be talked about within Mahanyanic & Tantric Buddhism. These Buddhists have many other terms depending upon the school and the country of origin to describe this 'God' and don't use the term 'God' except when speaking in English to Westerners. But it is still important to recognize that this conception of God as an eternal, all-pervading, all-knowing, immaculate, uncreated and deathless Ground of Being or ultimate reality was a part of Hinduism at the time of the Buddha. This was and is still an important metaphysical component of the Upanishads. It is called 'being', atman, Brahman, or simply God. The Pali Canon makes clear that he rejected this fully and completely as the doctrine of anatta clearly demonstrates. Atta is the Pali word for the Sanskrit term atman. Anatta means then 'no self' or 'no atman', 'no Brahman' and 'no God'. Later Mahayanins attribute the Buddha's actions such that they suggest a Godhead in their Sutras and Tantras but that is an interpretation and not an exact quoting of his original verbal teachings.

Finally, with regards to the gods and goddesses which are a part of certain schools of Buddhism, they are not personal deities that have independent 'real' existence like a Western deist or polytheist might mean. I will speak of Tibetan Tantra only here as this thread is about H.H. the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism. Medicine Buddha, Green Tara, White Tara, Yamantaka, etc. are all symbolic expressions of that Godhead. They are human conceptions that assist us in understanding and realizing the true state of our minds and are merely archetypes of psychic reality. I present a link to a teaching preceding the White Tara Empowerment given at Garchen in Arizona in 2012.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/21168136

Skip ahead to 25:00 minutes in and the Lama discusses very succinctly this idea. He even bluntly states that it takes greater intelligence to realize this distinction on the Tantric path. This is why it is not for everyone and is psychologically dangerous. Let me give a small example with Medicine Buddha. An individual receives the Empowerment and the Teachings and then attends a Medicine Buddha retreats. Medicine Buddha, however, is not objectively real yet is 100% a real experience. It is not a deity outside of oneself that offerings are made to or worship given. It is an archetype that one visualizes and experiences in order to understand the conceptions that he symbolizes. One major aspect of the Medicine Buddha is the duality of healing and disease. Medicine and cure versus poison and pestilence. It is both the capacity to be healing in approaches to life and destructive in other approaches. Sometimes medicine must be strong in order to cure. A higher Tantric teaching is that strong medicine cures the greatest disease which is ignorance of reality as it is. So real life expressions of this might be when a scientist corrects a 'creationists' on evolution. That is an expression of the Medicine Buddha's strong medicine. When a psychologist helps a client to realize that they in the present are using their cognitive faculties to create emotional discomfort, that is an expression of Medicine Buddha's strong medicine. When a parent lovingly stops an unaware child from dashing in front of car by physically holding them back, that is yet another expression of Medicine Buddha's strong medicine. But there is no supernatural intervention from a cosmic Medicine Buddha deity. There is just human agency and action expressing that compassionate love as a strong curing medicine.

I hope this clears up some of the ignorance and misunderstandings in this thread with regards to 'gods & goddesses' within Buddhism, and the uniqueness of Buddhism as a world religion that is atheistic as it lacks a concept of a creator god or gods that have independent existence.

[HiPointDem]

173. = 'yes, there are gods, but they're different.' 'medicine buddha' = lol.

special pleading = 'logic'

[TM99]

182. You obviously are lacking in

reading comprehension skills.

Special pleading, seriously?

Let's try this even more simply for you.

The First Congress of the World Buddhist Sangha Council met in 1967 to release a statement entitled The Basic Points Unifying the Theravāda and the Mahāyāna traditions. Representatives from every Buddhist tradition and country were in attendance and unanimously agreed to the following points:

1) The Buddha is our only Master (teacher and guide)

2) We take refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Saṅgha (the Three Jewels)

3) We do not believe that this world is created and ruled by a God.

4) We consider that the purpose of life is to develop compassion for all living beings without discrimination and to work for their good, happiness, and peace; and to develop wisdom (prajñā leading to the realization of Ultimate Truth.

5) We accept the Four Noble Truths, namely duḥkha, the arising of duḥkha, the cessation of duḥkha, and the path leading to the cessation of duḥkha; and the law of cause and effect (pratītyasamutpāda).

6) All conditioned things (saṃskāra) are impermanent (anitya) and duḥkha, and that all conditioned and unconditioned things (dharma) are without self (anātma) (see trilaksana).

7) We accept the thirty-seven qualities conducive to enlightenment (bodhipakṣadharma) as different aspects of the Path taught by the Buddha leading to Enlightenment.

8) There are three ways of attaining bodhi or Enlightenment: namely as a disciple (śrāvaka), as a pratyekabuddha and as a samyaksambuddha (perfectly and fully enlightened Buddha). We accept it as the highest, noblest, and most heroic to follow the career of a Bodhisattva and to become a samyaksambuddha in order to save others.

9) We admit that in different countries there are differences regarding Buddhist beliefs and practices. These external forms and expressions should not be confused with the essential teachings of the Buddha.

(Taken from the members areas of WBSC http://wbsc886.org/Enlish/E-index2/E-index.html)

Now, for the purposes of this discussion points 3 and 9 are critical. Point 3 clearly states that Buddhism is atheistic. Period.

Point 9 requires more critical thinking be involved. Every country that Buddhism traveled into over its 2500 year migration and evolution had a local culture that revered polytheistic traditions whether it was the Immortals of Taoism, the Shinto gods & goddesses of Japan, or the gods and goddesses of Bonpo in Tibet. The deities (gods & goddesses like Medicine Buddha and White Tara of Tibet) are not real. They are symbols, metaphors, placeholders of consciousness, archetypes of psychic experiences, etc.

Ven. Walpola Sri Rahula restated point 9 in the 1980's to further clarify this for his Western students who grew up in the Judeo-Christian/Scientific Materialistic culture. He said:

We admit that in different countries there are differences with regard to the ways of life of Buddhist monks, popular Buddhist beliefs and practices, rites and rituals, ceremonies, customs and habits. These external forms and expressions should not be confused with the essential teachings of the Buddha.

So the first sentence shows a respect in each country for the local customs, practices, rites and rituals. A lay Shin Buddhist in Japan may revere Jizo and place his statue in his truck because he travels for work. Jizo is the 'protector' of travelers. A normal everyday Tibetan farmer may make offerings to Medicine Buddha to 'heal' their sick child while they simultaneously have the kid under 'western' medical care.

But, and this is very important so please read this carefully, the second sentence details that these 'external forms & expressions' (i.e. your obsession with gods & goddesses as being 'real') should never be confused with the foundational teachings of the Buddha, which as detailed above are atheistic with respect to deities, empirical as opposed to metaphysical, and reality-based (yes, Buddhists respect all advances in modern science!) as opposed to supernatural. All of these seeming ritualistic, metaphysical, & supernatural aspects of the various cultural expressions of Buddhism are simply mental phenomena. It is all of the mind. That is all.

If you can not get this after this post, then you have no intention of truly understanding that upon which you are trying to speak. You are being willful ignorant so that your mentally created construct and agenda are not disturbed. I will not debate you further on this.

[HiPointDem]

183. Buddhism doesn't have a creator god because it doesn't have a creation. So what?

Last edited Mon Mar 25, 2013, 04:22 AM - Edit history (6)

Is there something special about a creation god as opposed to a supernatural being that grants good scores on exams or good harvests or fertility? when we pile fruits in front of a statue on a shrine, what is the significance? when we do repetitive chanting of certain names, who is listening? what is the significance and function today, and what was the significance and function 500 years ago?

The 9 point statement of the 1967 "Congress of the World Buddhist Sangha Council" does not encompass "what Buddhism is".

The congress wants to draw some artificial line between 'indigenous' custom and 'the true cross', but that's all it is, an artificial line drawn by modern people. From the moment buddha opened his mouth to teach, buddhism was 'polluted' by the indigenous.

Apparently you've never been to japan if you think people are driving trucks with jizos in them.

the first translator of the heart sutra and hundreds of other buddhists texts into chinese used the term 't'ien chung t'ien,' 'god of gods,' to signify the buddha.

Soyen Shakku, the first zen (probably the most 'atheistic' buddhist variant) monk to teach in the US, says:

At the outset, let me state that Buddhism is not atheistic as the term is ordinarily understood. It has certainly a God, the highest reality and truth, through which and in which this universe exists. However, the followers of Buddhism usually avoid the term God, for it savors so much of Christianity, whose spirit is not always exactly in accord with the Buddhist interpretation of religious experience. Again, Buddhism is not pantheistic in the sense that it identifies the universe with God. On the other hand, the Buddhist God is absolute and transcendent...

Thus, according to the proclamation of an enlightened mind, God or the principle of sameness is not transcendent, but immanent in the universe, and we sentient beings are manifesting the divine glory just as much as the lilies of the field. A God who, keeping aloof from his creations, sends down his words of command through specially favored personages, is rejected by Buddhists as against the constitution of human reason. God must be in us, who are made in his likeness. We cannot presume the duality of God and the world. Religion is not to go to God by forsaking the world, but to find him in it. Our faith is to believe in our essential oneness with him, and not in our sensual separateness. "God in us and we in him," must be made the most fundamental faith of all religion.

We must not, however, suppose that God is no more than the sum-total of individual existences. God exists even when all creations have been destroyed and reduced to a state of chaotic barrenness. God exists eternally, and he will create another universe out of the ruins of this one. To our limited intelligence there may be a beginning and an end of the worlds, but as God surveys them, being and becoming are one selfsame process. To him nothing changes, or, to state it rather paradoxically, he sees no change whatever in all the changes we have around us; all things are absolutely quiet in their eternal cycle of birth and death, growth and decay, combination and disintegration. This universe cannot exist outside of God, but God is more than the totality of individual existences; God is here as well as there, God is not only this but also that.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zfa/zfa04.htm


Buddhist practice and scripture are deep and wide and have encompassed philosophy & practices similar to the western notion of godhood as well as the opposite pole, just as christian scripture and practices have encompassed philosophy and practices similar to those found in the east.

examples of all can be found in the buddhist canon, and in actual practice.

The notion that there is some pure buddhism that can be described in a single sentence is western modernist bunk.

It's funny when 'buddhists' do personal attacks.

"You obviously are lacking in reading comprehension skills."

"Let's try this even more simply for you."

"You are being willful ignorant so that your mentally created construct and agenda are not disturbed."


Oh, the irony. Oh, the humanity.

[TM99]

186. All you have left is

repeating the same argument and even the same quotes.

Believe what you will. It is inaccurate. You take statements of fact and simply distort them to fit your idea of what they mean. It does not matter to you if someone with the facts corrects you even if proof is given.

You see it as a personal attack yet obviously you do lack in reading comprehension skills and when things are as simply stated as possible, yup, you resort to the same old bullshit. Harsh and true words? Yes.

If you think all Buddhists are 'sweetness and light', you obviously haven't spent much time with Zen Masters.

[HiPointDem]

194. lol. you know nothing about me. i don't think anything like 'all buddhists are sweetness and light'

Last edited Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:31 AM - Edit history (2)

& never said anything like that. I said the opposite: buddhists are just as militaristic, power-seeking & hypocritical as christians or practioners of any other religion.

i doubt you've spent much time with zen masters either, since you think japanese buddhists drive trucks with jizos in them. one of their quaint 'indigenous' practices.

all you have left is composing more lists of buddhist schools and sects and nine-point programs.

dry bureaucratic pedantry. monkey dominance games.

i thought you were leaving and putting me on permanent ignore. can't let go, eh? despite getting your wisdom teaching direct from the dalai lama.

here, i think you need a refresher:

Do not speak harshly to anybody; those who are spoken to will answer thee in the same way. Angry speech is painful, blows for blows will touch thee.

Let each man direct himself first to what is proper, then let him teach others; thus a wise man will not suffer.

The fool who knows his foolishness, is wise at least so far. But a fool who thinks himself wise, he is called a fool indeed.

- dhammapada. but of course, you knew that already, because you are an expert on everything about buddhism, in every epoch, country, practitioner.

reportedly the words of buddha, who also talks about various *gods* in the same text. but metaphorically, no doubt.


this is not a god:

[jazzimov]

170. VERY confusing article. They are not considered "gods"

as the term is perceived in Western terms.

This is an error warned against in traditional Daoism - the need for human beings to "label" and compartmentalize things.

Please pay close attention to the quote you posted:

The Buddha's teachings and Theravada Buddhism are essentially atheistic, although neither deny the existence of beings that might be called "gods."

Please notice that all of the examples given were once Human Beings, who achieved Enlightenment, or what this particular site would call "godhood" - although that term is actually a misnomer.

"You must unlearn, all that you have learned." - Yoda.

[HiPointDem]

195. 'not god' is a label.

[Cleita]

88. That wouldn't be hard, but you can be sure the DU atheists will beat

you to a virtual pulp.

[jazzimov]

175. But, Buddhism isn't a "religion".

At least, not a religion as most westerners describe it.

In fact, by Western standards, Buddhism is Atheistic in nature.

[Katashi_itto]

168. Agree, another thread Into the trash

[freshwest]

3. Interesting story and website. The links go some of my favorite subjects. Thanks.

[darkangel218]

4. Budhists never hate anyone.

That's their beliefs. I know its weird but that's how they are. They befriend even pure evil.

[Mika]

9. Indeed.

[Paul E Ester]

62. "Budhists never hate anyone" - How about some recent history

How is it possible that the largest mass murderers in Asia were buddist?

Pol Pot, or Saloth Sar, was born on May 19, 1925, in a province north of Phnom Penh. Interestingly, he was born to a well-to-do farming family who had ties with the Cambodian royal family. Ironically, he would later kill people from similar backgrounds as his own. He moved to Phnom Penh at age six because his sister became a midwife of the king and his brother served as an official for the royal palace. While in Phnom Penh, he spent a year at a Buddhist pagoda, which profoundly affected him later in life. (Nearly Ninety-five percent of Cambodians follow Theravada Buddhism.) After his experience with Buddhism, he continued to study at a number of French schools and later a Catholic college, although he never even finished high school.

Mao Zedong

"My father Mao Shunsheng early and middle age do not believe in God, but my mother is very devout Buddhist, her own children to instill religious beliefs, we all believed in Buddhism because his father does not feel sad. When I was nine, had serious discussion with my mother my father is not a Buddhist issue. Since then, we want him changed several times over, but did not succeed. He just called us names, in his assault on, we had to give way, think of other ways, but he does not always willing to deal with the Buddha.

http://tantrismuskritik.blogspot.com/2011/06/freunde-des-herrn-dalai-lama-nazis.html

Japanese imperial army - The Rape of nanking at the hands of Buddists
Japanese nationalism meant that the military was built around a concept of the time period: a Rich Country has a Strong Military. Nationalists asserted that Japan as a land was sacred, and its people were special due to a combination of elements of Zen-( known in Chinese as Chan) and various other forms of Japanese Buddhism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_Japanese_Army

[JVS]

65. I didn't know Mao spoke in incoherent fragments.

It must be hard to lead a revolution that way.

[upaloopa]

81. If you don't try to live by Buddhist principals you are not a Buddhist

[HiPointDem]

191. Well then most of the historic tibetan buddhist leadership weren't buddhists.

In the 1630s, Tibet became entangled in power struggles between the rising Manchu and various Mongol and Oirat factions. Ligden Khan of the Chakhar, retreating from the Manchu, set out to Tibet to destroy the Yellow Hat sect.

His vassal Tsogt Taij continued the fight, even having his own son Arslan killed after Arslan changed sides. Tsogt Taij was defeated and killed by Güshi Khan of the Khoshud in 1637, who would in turn become the overlord of Tibet, and act as a "Protector of the Yellow Church."[13] Güshi helped the Fifth Dalai Lama to establish himself as the highest spiritual and political authority in Tibet and destroyed any potential rivals.

Tsangyang Gyatso enjoyed a lifestyle that included drinking, the company of women, and writing love songs.[15] In 1705, Lobzang Khan of the Khoshud used the sixth Dalai Lama's escapades as excuse to take control of Tibet. The regent was murdered, and the Dalai Lama sent to Beijing. He died on the way, near Koko Nur, ostensibly from illness.

After him [Jamphel Gyatso the eighth Dalai Lama (1758–1804)], the 9th and 10th Dalai Lamas died before attaining their majority: one of them is credibly stated to have been murdered and strong suspicion attaches to the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalai_lama


The power of Tibetan buddhism was established through the patronage of the heirs of ghengis khan, while the Khans were still a big power. the dalai lama after that one was actually himself a Khan.

[BlueToTheBone]

83. The Dalai Lama is from the Mahayana tradition.

There are as many different philosophical branches of Buddhism as there are Christianity.

I am not surprised that the Dalai Lama says to forgive Pinochet, but I'm sure he doesn't say, what a great guy that Pinochet.

[FreeState]

89. The Dalai Lama is Vajrayana not Mahayana n/t

[BlueToTheBone]

90. He is from the Gelukpa tradition (yellow hats)

He is actually Tantric which includes the Vajrayana in the Mahayana path.

[FreeState]

93. But most modern thinking separates Vajrayana from Mahayana because of Lamaism

Mostly because of Lamaism and not Tantric.

[TM99]

98. Again, this is incorrect.

A simple read of Huston Smith's A Concise Introduction to Buddhism will clear up this misconception and misunderstanding.

[FreeState]

180. Thanks for the book

I traced back to where I was getting my information, a monk I no longer follow (Kadampa). I started off there and moved to Theravada and never thought to question that Thanks!

[TM99]

181. You are very welcome.

I must admit to saying that I am glad you made the move from the Kadampa to a Theravadin tradition. I assume it was the New Kadampa Tradition of Gelsang Gyatso? My experience with him decades ago was somewhat positive. After his conflict with H.H. the Dalai Lama, his 'school' has been dogged by accusations of cult-like behaviors amongst its members. I met some nice people in the rank & file here locally at a NKT center but the hierarchy's actions raised many red flags for me such that I never have a desire to participate with them whatsoever.

There are comparably fewer 'cults' within Buddhism than in Christianity, but there are still sadly a few. NKT is one of them.

[BlueToTheBone]

196. ...

So I started reading more about Vajrayana and Mahayana. Vajrayana is the heart of Mahayana and my teacher (Tibetan buddhist) follows the yellow hat traditions. The teachers he brings are all from Mahayana tradition. I was initiated into Vajrayana by H.H. Gawang Rinpoche from Bhutan. He too wore a yellow hat.

I don't know lamaism is. Is that guru yoga?

[FreeState]

197. Lamaism

As I have understood it, it is used as another name for Tibetan Buddhism and is in reference to Lamas (those reborn gurus or leaders).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulku

In Tibetan Buddhism, a tulku (Tibetan: སྤྲུལ་སྐུ, Wylie: sprul sku, ZYPY: Zhügu, also tülku, trulku) is an honorary title given to a recognised reincarnate Lama either on the grounds of his (her) resembling an enlightened being or through his (her) connection to certain qualities of an enlightened being. Amongst the Tulkus of Tibet are those who are reincarnations of superior Bodhisattvas, who are able to choose their place and time of birth as well as their future parents.[1] High-profile examples of tulkus include the Dalai Lama, the Panchen Lama and the Karmapa.

[Bradical79]

66. There's a difference between "never" and "shouldn't"...

It's kind of ridiculous to think that because someone is Buddhist that they are not prone to the same emotional states as those of other religious beliefs.

[HiPointDem]

68. baloney. buddhism has been just as militaristic as christianity in its long history.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

155. You might want to read up on the history of Sri Lanka and the role of Buddhist monks

in the civil war there

Each religion has its good and bad

[Blue_Tires]

5. So the first link you posted is 13 years old...

Full context of quote:

Visiting Chile as part of a South American tour, the Dalai Lama said, "in the Pinochet case, as an individual, now old," it might be best to forgive him, the Nobel laureate told reporters in Santiago. "I think forgiveness is important, but forgiveness does not mean to forget about what happened."

Ironically, the bigger story in the CBC link should be George Bush Sr. trying to get his old buddy released....

The second link you posted is an eight year old excerpt of a larger story (without author, sources or citation), except the link to the bigger story is dead, if it ever existed...

[Paul E Ester]

7. I noticed that it wasn't a one time thing too. Here he is with EVIL personified.

[Blue_Tires]

8. Maybe I'm not getting your point...

If photography existed in that era, you could post photos of Jesus hanging out with drunkards, whores, gluttons, tax collectors and moneylenders...

[Hekate]

17. I'm Rec'cing your post

[Melinda]

35. I'm Rec'cing your post too. (2)

[HiPointDem]

69. did jesus take money from them?

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html

[magical thyme]

74. Did Jesus have a 2nd job?

Or did he rely on gifts? Because he got his clothes and food and occasional donkey ride from somewhere. Maybe he mooched off his parents right into his 30s...

[HiPointDem]

87. Yes, I'm sure jesus was a covert agent of pharoah. But actually, I don't give a damn about

jesus, just disgusted by the hypocrisy that puts buddhism in a special category of religion.

People actually living in asia aren't nearly so delusional as western buddhists.

[magical thyme]

92. not sure what you mean by

"special category" of religion, or what hypocrisy you're referring to, but, whatever

[kwassa]

142. Special category of religion?

As opposed to what?

[Blue_Tires]

80. You're casting a lot of stones...

How much scrutiny would the sources of your income stand?

Don't bother -- You may not be getting money from the CIA, but I assure you, whichever industry you work in, whoever signs your paycheck, I can pop a thousand ethical/moral holes in it...

[HiPointDem]

84. An exiled head of state taking money directly from the CIA is not comparable to

anything you could discuss about some ordinary person's job.

Particularly when ordinary people generally don't use their wages to finance covert operations.

[magical thyme]

114. in this country, people use their wages

to support bucketloads of corruption and evil.

Odds are good that the computer you're sitting at was produced by a Chinese slave. Odds are good that the clothes you're wearing were produced by another slave. It's not your intent to support evil, but you do simply by going about your life.

Covert operations are as good or bad as their intent. If the intent was to drive invaders out of their homeland, that strikes me as a good goal. Ymmv.

As it happens, I will be using some of my wages to engage in covert operations this spring. I've had problems with certain neighbors trespassing, stealing, damaging my property and attempting to harm my animals. That has included attempting to run my dogs down in my driveway. I plan to put up no trespassing signs, but that will be viewed as practically an invitation to trespass and destroy by some of them. Therefore, I will first be putting up surveillance video. That way, I can bring criminal trespassing and criminal mischief charges against them the next time they pull a stunt.

You may think my spending my wages on covert operations is bad. I disagree.

[HiPointDem]

116. The Dalai Lama took money directly from the CIA. Your attempt at apologetics is completely

irrelevant.

[kwassa]

143. What is wrong with the Dalai Lama taking money from the CIA?

maybe I am missing something here. From your link:

[blockquoThe Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960's from the Central Intelligence Agency, but denied reports that the Tibetan leader benefited personally from an annual subsidy of $180,000.

The money allocated for the resistance movement was spent on training volunteers and paying for guerrilla operations against the Chinese, the Tibetan government-in-exile said in a statement. It added that the subsidy earmarked for the Dalai Lama was spent on setting up offices in Geneva and New York and on international lobbying.

[HiPointDem]

147. not 'wrong'. but not in accordance with the notion of an ethereal holy man whose only

interest is world peace, blah blah.

the money was spent on covert operations including funding opposition militias and guerillas. as well as supporting the dalai lama himself.

But contrary to the pop history version, the Tibetans did not simply let the Chinese roll over their country in 1951. For almost 20 years afterward they fought a long, bloody war of resistance that struck serious blows to Chairman Mao Tse-tung's expansionist plans. Invisible to outsiders as it raged, this largely unknown struggle that no novelist could have dreamed up got support from the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency, which sponsored secret training camps and made arms and equipment drops to aid horse-mounted herdsmen against the bombers and artillery of the largest standing army on the planet.

http://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet.htm

[kwassa]

158. The Dalai Lama had no role in the resistance movement, not that there would be anything wrong

if he were.

Nothing in your source cites any role by him at all.

What were they supposed to do, lie down and let the Chinese crush them? The Chinese crushed them anyways. Herdsman vs. bombers.

Your hatred of the Dalai Lama appears to be entirely irrational.

[HiPointDem]

176. the dalai lama was the *head* of the overseas resistance. i don't expect the

Last edited Mon Mar 25, 2013, 06:51 AM - Edit history (1)

dalai lama to do anything in particular. my interest is in the fact that so many people seem averse to admitting that the dalai lama is a *political* figure, with all that implies.

oh, & ps: i have no 'hatred' of the dalai lama. i'm not sure why people think that criticism = hatred. i think they're projecting.

[BlueToTheBone]

199. Up until very recently he was the head of the country of Tibet

not just the head of Tibetan Buddhism. So, in his two hats he did things for the people.

[HiPointDem]

201. 'very recently' = 50 years ago

[Scootaloo]

102. You're giving mcCain way too much credit. He's GRUMPINESS personified.

[BuddhaGirl]

169. what a weak-assed point

Even President Obama has shook McCain's hand!

[Arcanetrance]

6. I gotta be honest all the back and forth hatred over religion or lack of is getting old

With all that goes on in the country I think it's time to accept each other and gear up for a long midterm and lead up there to. I could give a damn what a person's belief or non belief is as long as we are united to move the country forward

[Paul E Ester]

10. Here he is meeting with Jörg Haider

Jörg Haider (help·info) (German pronunciation: [ˈjœɐ̯k ˈhaɪdɐ]; 26 January 1950 – 11 October 2008)[2] was an Austrian politician. He was Governor of Carinthia on two occasions, the long-time leader of the Austrian Freedom Party (FPÖ) and later Chairman of the Alliance for the Future of Austria (Bündnis Zukunft Österreich, BZÖ), a breakaway party from the FPÖ.[3]
Haider was a controversial figure within Austria and abroad for comments that were widely condemned as praising Nazi policies or as being xenophobic or anti-Semitic.[4] Several countries imposed mild diplomatic sanctions against his party's participation in government alongside Wolfgang Schüssel's ÖVP, starting from 2000.
Allegations of Nazi sympathies and anti-semitism

Haider was frequently criticized for statements in praise of Nazi policies, or considered antisemitic.[42][43] International reports on Haider often referred to his remark that the Nazi government had produced a "proper employment policy" as compared to the SPÖ government. He was forced to resign as governor of the Carinthia province in 1991 because of the incident. Haider years later apologized.[14] On one occasion during a parliamentary debate, Haider described World War II concentration camps as "punishment camps." [14]

On several occasions Haider made remarks about Austrian World War II veterans that were represented as broad endorsement of the war and of the Nazi SS. Speaking to a gathering of veterans from several countries in 1990, he said that the veterans were "decent people of good character" and "remain true to their convictions." Haider stated that he did not specifically address Waffen-SS veterans with his remarks.[14] On another occasion, he said, "the Waffen-SS was part of the Wehrmacht (German military) and because of that it deserves every honor and recognition."[44] In 2000, at gathering of Wehrmacht veterans in Ulrichsberg, including Waffen-SS veterans, he said, "Those who come to Ulrichsberg are not the old Nazis. They are not neo-Nazis, they are not criminals."[45]

Haider also compared the deportation of Jews by the Nazis to the expulsion of Sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia after World War II.[46] Haider's detractors also pointed to a punning reference to the leader of the Jewish community of Vienna, Ariel Muzicant; Haider indicated that he did not understand how someone named Ariel (also the name of a popular laundry detergent) could have gathered so much filth, implying the real estate agent's business methods were crooked.[47] Haider's critics characterized the remark as antisemitic.[47] Haider also maintained that Muzicant faked antisemitic hate letters to himself. He later withdrew this and other accusations, and apologized for his "derogatory remarks." [48]

Haider was closely watched by Mossad, the Israeli secret service; FPÖ secretary general Peter Sichrovsky - a Jewish-Austrian politician and formerly one of Haider's closest aides - had gathered inside information on Haider's controversial contacts with prominent "Arab dictators".[49] Due to Haider's perceived contacts to Holocaust deniers, the Israeli Foreign Ministry on September 29, 2008 declared it was heavily concerned about the 2008 Austrian elections;[50] a spokesman of the ministry said that Israeli officials were "very worried about the rise to power of people who promote hatred, Holocaust denial, and befriend Neo-Nazis. We see it as a disturbing development and are following the matter very closely".[51]

[Blue_Tires]

11. You're wasting your time

The Dalai Lama isn't a deity, he isn't the Pope, he isn't Brigham Young, he isn't Jesus, he isn't the President of Israel, Henry VIII, etc...He's a man and despite what some others may insinuate, he's never claimed to be anything but...

You're trying *so* hard to bridge the comparison that "Dalai Lama = Pope" in terms of relative influence, political power and importance...It won't work...

[Honeycombe8]

12. So? There's a pic of him meeting someone. The Dalai Lama isn't at a Nazi meeting

with him. I think you're trying to make something of nothing. It's not working.

Now if you photoshop a pic of the Dalai Lama with a Nazi uniform and giving the "hail Hitler" salute, you may have something there.

[Jackpine Radical]

31. So here's a pic of Obama practically nuzzling a war criminal…

What am I spozed to make of this?

[Honeycombe8]

94. LOL! nt

[Scootaloo]

103. "George... Why do you smell like hot dog water?"

[Phillip McCleod]

161. LOL!

[HiPointDem]

70. how about his cia funding?

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html

[JVS]

13. As someone who opposes his politics, I have a few questions about what you're saying.

Are you pointing this out to criticize the personal judgement of the man concerning Pinochet and his association with Harrer?

Is this intended as some kind of criticism of Buddhism (or a particular sect of Tibetan Buddhism) or religion in general? If so, please elaborate as there are good critiques to be made of both.

Is this some kind of tu quoque designed to deflect criticism from another religious leader or religion?

[magical thyme]

14. nice try. but thank you for the interesting reading. a couple choice quotes:

...the Dalai Lama said, "in the Pinochet case, as an individual, now old," it might be best to forgive him, the Nobel laureate told reporters in Santiago. "I think forgiveness is important, but forgiveness does not mean to forget about what happened."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/1999/04/11/pinochet990411.html


"But let us return to Heinrich Harrer. War broke out while he was still in India and the young German was interned by the British. It was not until 1944 that he was able to flee to Tibet with a comrade. Coincidence or fate led to his acting as the young Dalai Lama’s personal tutor until the early 50s, and teaching him about all the “wonders” of western civilization and introducing him to the English language as well. It is very likely that his lessons were tainted by the contemporary zeitgeist which had swept through Hitler’s Germany, and not by the British attitudes of the envoy Hugh Richardson, also present in Lhasa. This led in fact to some problems at the court of the young god-king and the English were not happy about his contact to Harrer. But there are nevertheless no grounds for describing the lessons the former SS member gave his “divine” pupil as fascist, particularly since they were primarily given after the end of the World War II. In 1952 His Holiness’s German “teacher “ returned to Europe."

The movie "Seven Years in Tibet" was based on Harrer's experience. That is how a brownshirt became a "mentor" (really, a tutor) to the Dalai Lama when he was 9 years old. http://zenbuddhism.tribe.net/thread/4597a19e-c253-4589-acf7-9f8a98965c2d


The movie "Seven Years in Tibet" was based on Harrer's experience. That is how a brownshirt became a "mentor" (really, a tutor) to the Dalai Lama when he was 9 years old, and taught him about the world outside of Lhasa until he was 16. Isolated in the Himalayas, it seems unlikely the Buddhist monks were totally aware of what was going on in Europe.

The Dalai Lama is considered the incarnation of the Buddha of Compassion, and therefore treats his people and his oppressors with kindness and compassion. Essentially it is his job as Dalai Lama to forgive. That includes the Chinese who took over his homeland and killed his fellow monks and Tibetans.

[Hekate]

18. I'm Rec'cing your post, too

What the hell is going on here, anyway?

[HiPointDem]

134. too bad there is no 'forgiveness' for the people pinochet *murdered* en masse.

[kwassa]

144. That and a $1.95 might buy you a cup of coffee.

[HiPointDem]

146. better than dying nameless and supposedly 'guilty' while pinochet dies a multimillionaire.

[kwassa]

148. and what does this have to do with the Dalai Lama?

[HiPointDem]

149. "forgive pinochet, says dalai lama" = part of the OP. any other obvious questions you need

answered?

[magical thyme]

153. Forgiveness does not mean absolving of guilt or the need for justice

It means simply do not harbor bitterness and hatred in your own heart and soul.

If you harbor bitterness and hatred, you do not obtain justice, nor do you punish somebody else. You only hurt yourself.

At a personal level, I find it is very easy to forgive those who haven't directly injured us or someone we deeply love. Too easy and, frankly, too pat to even worry about it. I don't go around all day every day hating Pinochet. I suspect you don't either. I hate the idea of what he did, I hate the idea that our Government aids and abets the overthrow of legitimate governments and installs puppet governments in their place. But I don't stew on it all day, every day and I don't refuse to engage with or speak to politicians because of their involvement in evil.

The Dalai Lama meets with the people he meets with due to his position in life and his goal to return Tibet to the Tibetan people. Not some conspiracy or hypocrisy, just doing the best he can to convince China to leave Tibet to the Tibetans.

Because it is only by engaging with the world that you can change it. The question is what will you bring to the party? More hate, bitterness and desire for revenge? Or more peace and equilibrium?

[HiPointDem]

154. i don't forgive mass murderers, especially those posing as leaders & looking to rehabilitate

their reputations.

and i don't see such public forgiveness as some kind of spiritual virtue that makes the public better as individuals. not while the victims, families and the public at large is still suffering from the deeds of such 'leaders'.

[magical thyme]

165. if you spend your time stewing in anger and hatred for them

then you diminish your own life, and you can even end up making yourself quite sick physically as well. You hurt yourself, you do not bring their victims back to life... and do not impact them at all. But that is your choice.

If you do not spend your time stewing in anger and hatred for them, then you have "forgiven" them at least for the time you aren't stewing in anger over them.

I think the wiser choice is to take whatever action you are able to bring them to justice, and then to let it go.

And I still think we are defining forgiveness differently.

[HiPointDem]

166. I question why the dalai lama wasted his time making such a statement, as

opposed to others he might have made. he has nothing to do with pinochet.

the reasons are political.

[magical thyme]

167. you would need to ask the Dalai Lama that

I was not there, either at any time when he met any of these people or when he was asked in an interview. I surely don't know the circumstances and I expect the story would be a long one. I try to spend my time on things I can do something about.

[HiPointDem]

172. you're spending a lot of time defending the dalai lama, though.

maybe you should go do something you can "do something about".

i recognize passive-aggressive attacks when i see them.

[Paul E Ester]

15. Miguel Serrano - Creator of Esoteric Hitlerism/ and head of chile Nazi party

Last edited Sun Mar 24, 2013, 03:15 AM - Edit history (1)

Miguel Serrano (10 September 1917 – 28 February 2009) was a Chilean diplomat, explorer, and author of poetry, books on spiritual questing and Esoteric Nazism. Serrano's anti-modernist neo-Gnostic philosophy claims to elucidate the extraterrestrial origin of the Hyperborean-descended Aryan race, image-bearers of the Godhead, and postulates a global conspiracy against them by an evil inferior godlet: The Demiurge, worshipped by the Jewish people, lord of planet Earth, spawner of the primitive hominid stocks, and author of all base materiality.

In May 1984, Serrano gave the Nazi salute at the funeral in Santiago of SS Colonel Walter Rauff.[9] He convened a rally in Santiago on 5 September 1993, in honor of Rudolf Hess, and in memory of the 62 young Chilean Nazi supporters who were shot dead while occupying a social security building during an abortive coup in 1938.[1][10] He maintained correspondence with neo-Nazi leaders such as Matt Koehl. He was interviewed in depth by the Greek far-right magazine To Antidoto, and has also featured in the literature of the Black Order.[10]

Serrano synthesized interpretations of Hindu and Nordic traditions, both of which he considered to be of ancient Aryan-Hyperborean provenance. He is especially indebted to the Jungian theory of collective racial archetypes, borrowed heavily from Julius Evola in supporting a spiritual consideration of race, as opposed to a solely biological one, and followed Savitri Devi in recognizing Adolf Hitler as an avatar who battled against the demonic materialistic hosts of the Kali Yuga.

Serrano termed his philosophy Esoteric Hitlerism, which he has described as a new religious faith "able to change the materialistic man of today into a new idealistic hero", and also as "much more than a religion: It is a way to transmute a hero into God."[citation needed]

In 1984 he published his 643-page tome, Adolf Hitler, el Último Avatãra (Adolf Hitler: The Last Avatar), which is dedicated "To the glory of the Führer, Adolf Hitler". In this arcane work Serrano unfolds his ultimate philosophical testament through elaborate esoteric and mythological symbolism.[11][12] He insists that there has been a vast historical conspiracy to conceal the origins of evolved humankind. Serrano's epic vista opens with extragalactic beings who founded the First Hyperborea, a terrestrial but nonphysical realm which was neither geographically limited nor bound by the circles of reincarnation. The Hyperboreans were asexual and reproduced through "plasmic emanations" from their ethereal bodies; the Vril power was theirs to command, the light of the Black Sun coursed through their veins and they saw with the Third Eye. Serrano contends that the last documents relating to them were destroyed along with the Alexandrian Library, and that latterly these beings have been misunderstood as extraterrestrials arriving in spaceships or UFOs. However, the First Hyperborea was immaterial and altogether outside our mechanistic universe.[13][14]

The latter is under the jurisdiction of the Demiurge, an inferior godlet whose realm is the physical planet earth. The Demiurge had created a bestial imitation of humanity in the form of proto-human "robots" like Neanderthal Man, and intentionally consigned his creatures to an endless cycle of involuntary reincarnation on the earthly plane to no higher purpose. The Hyperboreans recoiled in horror from this entrapment within the Demiurge's cycles. They themselves take the devayana, the Way of the Gods, at death and return to the earth (as Bodhisattvas) only if they are willing.[14][15]

Determined upon a heroic war to reclaim the Demiurge's deteriorating world, the Hyperboreans clothed themselves in material bodies and descended on to the Second Hyperborea, a ring-shaped continent around the North Pole. During this Golden Age or Satya Yuga, they magnanimously instructed the Demiurge's creations (the Black, Yellow and Red races native to the planet) and began to raise them above their animal condition.[15][16] Then disaster struck; some of the Hyperboreans rebelled and intermingled their blood with the creatures of the Demiurge, and through this transgression Paradise was lost. Serrano refers to Genesis 6.4: "the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them". By diluting the divine blood, the primordial miscegenation accelerated the process of material decay. This was reflected in outward catastrophes and the North and South Poles reversed positions as a result of the fall of a comet or moon. The polar continent disappeared beneath the deluge and Hyperborea became invisible again.[15][16] The Hyperboreans themselves survived, some taking refuge at the South Pole. Serrano regards the mysterious appearance of the fine and artistic Cro-Magnon Man in Europe as evidence of Hyperboreans driven southward by the Ice Age.[15][16] In the then-fertile Gobi Desert, another group of exiled Hyperboreans established a fantastic civilization.[15]

The world thus becomes the combat zone between the dwindling Hyperboreans and the Demiurge and his forces of entropy.[15] But Serrano claims that the Golden Age can be reattained if the Hyperboreans' descendants, the Aryans, consciously repurify their blood to restore the divine blood-memory:[17]

"There is nothing more mysterious than blood. Paracelsus considered it a condensation of light. I believe that the Aryan, Hyperborean blood is that — but not the light of the Golden Sun, not of a galactic sun, but of the light of the Black Sun, of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Serrano

[Scootaloo]

104. So... Nation of Islam for white people? n/t

[freshwest]

159. Whoa, this is better than SciFi channel. Could you post the link since it got cut off??

I'd like to read the whole script there, seriously. TIA.

I'm not taking a side one way or the other of this on the negative track. If this is history and shows how all these different countries are intertwined, I want to get a chance to read it.

EDIT: I don't think religious belief had anything to do with any of these events, period. I consider these different individuals to be responsible for whatever they did, no matter how they did or did not seek to add some sort of divinity to their actions. It's just history to me.

[bemildred]

16. Do you really think going after the Dalai Lama is a useful thing to do?

And isn't guilt by association a kind of tacky argument?

[JVS]

20. I don't know about useful, but one would think that going after a deposed theocrat wouldn't even...

be necessary. Who would support going back to the old ways?

[bemildred]

22. Yeah, exactly, why are we worrying about this?

What's the threat? Why do we need to de-legitimize him now, and on DU?

[JVS]

25. What's legitimate about him?

[bemildred]

29. You got me.

The only thing I can come up with is there is trouble in Tibet, protests and people burning themselves.

[Paul E Ester]

28. Was he ever legitimate?

Last edited Thu Mar 21, 2013, 03:41 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't believe people actually know how reactionary some of his policies are. His message of "Peace" for tibet is one of cultural purity that if it came out of anyone else's mouth would be called Racism. Tibet for the Tibetens??, out with Immigrants??, Is he the head of the Tibeten National Front?

Support for Divine rule? Thats a governing system from the middle ages.

[bemildred]

32. I'm not saying he is legitimate, I'm asking why do you care?

He has no power, he's just another ex-ruler, the world is full of them.

[aquart]

79. Andy Devine was a divine actor.

[bemildred]

27. I just realized, I've read Harrer's book, it was quite interesting.

I suppose that makes me a Nazi too.

[bemildred]

37. Heinrich Harrer

Nazi involvement

Immediately after the Anschluss of March 1938, Harrer on 1 April 1938 joined the Schutzstaffel (SS) where he held the rank of Oberscharführer (Sergeant), and on 1 May 1938 he became a member of the Nazi Party. After their ascent of the Eiger North Face the four climbers were received by and photographed with Adolf Hitler. Harrer later said he wore his SS uniform only once, the day of his marriage to Charlotte Wegener, daughter of the eminent explorer and scholar Alfred Wegener.[1] After returning to Europe in 1952, Harrer was cleared of any pre-war crimes and this was later supported by Simon Wiesenthal.[2] In his memoir, Beyond Seven Years in Tibet, Harrer called his involvement with the Nazi Party a mistake made in his youth when he had not yet learned to think for himself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Harrer

[magical thyme]

67. "a deposed theocrat?" Buddhism does not have a deity

Buddhist lamas are teachers, not gods or priests or saints, and Buddhism does not address the existence of a deity. In achieving enlightenment, they are believed to have been freed from the cycle of rebirth, but they *choose* to reincarnate in order to assist others in achieving enlightenment.

It is westerners who use the phrase "His Holiness" and equate him to the Catholic Pope; there is no translation of those ideas to Tibetan.

The 14th Dalai Lama was identified in their traditional manner. On the death of the prior Dalai Lama, the head monk or monks meditated while gazing into a specific lake know to promote visions. The vision gives a direction and, in this case, showed a roof of specific type and color pattern. They then searched in that direction for 4 years before they found a house with that roof on it. A 4 year old boy lived there. They tested the boy, including showing him a group of objects. He correctly identified which objects in the group had belonged to the prior Dalai Lama. Once his identity was confirmed, he went to live at Lhasa, where he was raised and educated by the monks to be the leader of Tibet.

The Dalai Lama originally was the spiritual leader only, but many centuries ago they began filling the dual role or spiritual and political leader. As written elsewhere in this thread, the 14th Dalai Lama was actively transitioning Tibet to a democratic government when China invaded.

Buddhism teaches that all life is suffering, and to end the suffering you must detach yourself from life. That is, you should live your life and you love life, but you do not attach yourself to outcomes. It is in attachment -- in trying to create specific outcomes -- that you create more suffering and trapped in the cycle of rebirth.

Are there Buddhists who do bad things? Yes, of course. They are the students, though, not the masters.

[HiPointDem]

71. why do masters take money from the CIA?

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html


Besides which, buddhism has lots of flavors in space & time, & some indeed have had 'gods'. Buddhism is not a monolith.

[magical thyme]

73. you would need to ask them

I can only guess it was to try to get China out of Tibet.

Buddhism has many sects, but the philosophy overall does not depend on belief in a god.

[HiPointDem]

76. it's not just sects. it's all manner of supernatural beings and supernatural realms, all of

which are completely woven into the majority of buddhist texts.

[magical thyme]

91. the devas are not Gods in the sense that other religions have gods

Guatama Buddha did not express a belief in a creator God and it is not inherent in the Buddhist philosophy. Most schools of Buddhism either do not address the existence of a God, or consider it irrelevant or even argue against it.

I suspect the "supernatural beings" you refer to are the devas, most of which are consistent with the Hindu gods, and may have been absorbed by groups adopting a combination of the two philosophies. My understanding is that those gods are not necessarily seen as literal, but as metaphors for manifestations of life energy.

To call Tibet a theocracy is a misrepresentation.

[TM99]

99. Yes, correct!

As I said there are so many misunderstandings and misinformation within this thread even apparently coming from those who claim to follow the Buddha's path.

Reading can correct those especially since there are now hundreds of English language scholarly texts on every school and sect of Buddhism imaginable.

[JVS]

101. So, hairsplitting about Buddhist doctrine aside, what do we call that form of government?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theocracy#Buddhism

[TM99]

105. Golly, it is not hairsplitting

to correct misinformation is it?

Honestly, who cares if traditionally Tibet was a theocracy. Was it good or bad? Like every form of human government, including our over-rated and over-valued American Republic exceptionalism, it was a bit of both. Humans do what humans do.

Why is it being singled-out right now as somehow the most atrocious governmental state ever when compared to the Chinese Communists who invaded it 60 years ago?

Why are so many here being sucked in a debate full of distortions, misinformation, and diatribe from an astroturfed OP?

[JVS]

107. It's not misinformation. Should I have called him a deposed feudal lord? Is that better?

[TM99]

110. Yes, still misinformation, and no

that is not better.

Deposed implies being replaced by his own people.

Tibet was invaded by Communist China, another country. It now has a puppet government with ties to Beijing.

So did you support Bush's Iraq War? After all, we were just liberating the Iraqi people from an evil ruler.

[JVS]

111. I'm going with theocrat until you let me know what a more accurate term is.

[TM99]

113. As you wish.

All labels, yet no real discussion as to why this is important to you subjectively.

There seems to be a lot of that in this thread.

[HiPointDem]

117. "by groups adopting a combination of the two philosophies" = all (including the beliefs &

Last edited Fri Mar 22, 2013, 06:03 PM - Edit history (1)

practices of regions where buddhism spread.

not just devas; other spirit-beings as well, including ghosts and demons; other realms of existence; creation myths, etc.

Dharmaraksa, first chinese translator of the lotus sutra (& 100s of other canonical texts) used 't'ien chung t'ien' to refer to buddha = 'god above gods'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmarak%E1%B9%A3a

Soyen Shakku, the first zen (probably the most 'atheistic' buddhist variant) monk to teach in the US, says:

At the outset, let me state that Buddhism is not atheistic as the term is ordinarily understood. It has certainly a God, the highest reality and truth, through which and in which this universe exists. However, the followers of Buddhism usually avoid the term God, for it savors so much of Christianity, whose spirit is not always exactly in accord with the Buddhist interpretation of religious experience. Again, Buddhism is not pantheistic in the sense that it identifies the universe with God. On the other hand, the Buddhist God is absolute and transcendent...

Thus, according to the proclamation of an enlightened mind, God or the principle of sameness is not transcendent, but immanent in the universe, and we sentient beings are manifesting the divine glory just as much as the lilies of the field. A God who, keeping aloof from his creations, sends down his words of command through specially favored personages, is rejected by Buddhists as against the constitution of human reason. God must be in us, who are made in his likeness. We cannot presume the duality of God and the world. Religion is not to go to God by forsaking the world, but to find him in it. Our faith is to believe in our essential oneness with him, and not in our sensual separateness. "God in us and we in him," must be made the most fundamental faith of all religion.

We must not, however, suppose that God is no more than the sum-total of individual existences. God exists even when all creations have been destroyed and reduced to a state of chaotic barrenness. God exists eternally, and he will create another universe out of the ruins of this one. To our limited intelligence there may be a beginning and an end of the worlds, but as God surveys them, being and becoming are one selfsame process. To him nothing changes, or, to state it rather paradoxically, he sees no change whatever in all the changes we have around us; all things are absolutely quiet in their eternal cycle of birth and death, growth and decay, combination and disintegration. This universe cannot exist outside of God, but God is more than the totality of individual existences; God is here as well as there, God is not only this but also that.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/zfa/zfa04.htm

Buddhist practice and scripture are deep and wide and have encompassed philosophy & practices similar to the western notion of godhood as well as the other extreme, just as christian scripture and practices have encompassed philosophy and practices similar to those found in the east.

The notion that there is some pure buddhism that can be described in a single sentence is western modernist bunk.

[HiPointDem]

125. in your interpretation of 'the philosophy overall'. but your interpretation is not 'the philosophy

overall'.

btw, buddhism, wherever it has emerged, has always served the same functions as religion does, not only the functions philosophy does.

by calling it 'philosophy' you are already spinning the concrete reality.

no one has ever put up a temple to aristotle or burnt offerings to spinoza.

mainstream buddhism has no 'creator god' because it has no creation. duh. i'm not sure why you think supernaturalism should get a pass so long as there's no 'creator god'.

[HiPointDem]

187. Theocracy is commonly used to mean a state ruled by a religious leader or hierarchy. Ergo, the

DL was a theocrat.

[JVS]

188. Now they're going to lecture you on how Buddhism isn't a religion.

In which case, I guees we'll have to have to rethink the concept. Maybe it would be like a woo-ocracy. a model of governments where decisions are made by something vaguely spiritual but not religious like a seance, consulting tarot cards, or calling a psychic. But then we have to argue over whether Buddhism belongs in that category.

[HiPointDem]

193. no, it's a 'philosophy.' and wealthy western atheistic buddhists personally taught by the dalai

lama are the only 'real' buddhists, apparently. the other two thousand-odd years worth of buddhists that lived on half the planet were BINO, polluted by 'indigenous' beliefs and practices.



this is not a god; it's just a metaphor.

when i put it on an altar and offer my sacrifice it's just metaphorical, and always has been.

when i chant before it i am not speaking to the gods or the supernatural, and never was. i am only speaking to my solipsistic narcissistic atheistic materialistic scientific little western modern self.

[jazzimov]

179. Interesting. What is your definition of "theocrat"

because the Dalai Lama doesn't fit into any known description of "theocrat" to my knowledge.

To be a theocrat, one would have to believe in a theocracy - which is entirely contrary to the beliefs of the Dalai Lama.

You should really try to educate yourself before you express opinions that have no basis in reality.

[HiPointDem]

190. your knowledge is limited, apparently. theocracy is commonly used to describe governments run

by religious figures.

According to Tibetan Buddhist doctrine, the Dalai Lama is the rebirth in a line of tulkus who are metaphorically considered to be manifestations of the bodhisattva of compassion, Avalokiteśvara. The line of Dalai Lamas began as a lineage of spiritual teachers; the 5th Dalai Lama assumed political authority over Tibet.

'government by a priesthood'.

World English Dictionary
theocracy (θɪˈɒkrəsɪ

—n , pl -cies
1. government by a deity or by a priesthood
2. a community or political unit under such government

[Paul E Ester]

21. How many Nazi's must one hang out with...before one is guilty?

Did you know his mentor, the man who taught him english, was an SS officer?

I didn't.

[bemildred]

24. Your premise is wrong.

Guilt is not determined by who you know.

[jazzimov]

42. Isn't that called "guilt by association"

which most of us here declare is absolutely wrong?

[bemildred]

43. Why yes, it is. I believe I mentioned that up above too. nt

[stevenleser]

72. Yep, and there is a reason the guilt by association fallacy is listed as one of the more

common ones. And there is a reason why it is considered fallacious logic.

[HiPointDem]

203. the reason it's common is that in real life, it's so often not fallacious. My neighbor has a lot of

druggie friends -- and she herself is a druggie.

etc.

[freshwest]

160. The Nazis were as busy as the global corporations of today. If a person has ever gone to a school

that taught Bush or Sanctorum, are they of the same mind?

If a person travels around the world and gets work with Apple, MicroSoft, Halliburton or Pfizer, are they guilty of all those firms have done around the world?

If we drive a Ford, are we as anti-union or racist as Henry Ford was once said to be?

I cannot but think that in that era, people could not help but come into contact with people we have now found to have been involved in nefarious and or evil things like the Nazis.

All that being said, I'd love to see some of the source material you are using here.

[Paul E Ester]

19. Heinrich Harrer - SS Officer Mentor to the young Dalai Lama, taught him to speak english

Here is the Dalai Lama's mentor, SS Officer Harrer, with Adolf Hitler. He is standing immediately to the left.

Just months before the movie's release, the German magazine Stern added a startling and disagreeable new dimension to Mr. Harrer's life story; it reported that he enlisted in Hitler's storm troopers in 1933, when they were still illegal in Austria.

Five years later, he enlisted in the SS, the Nazi organization responsible for countless atrocities, and rose to sergeant. He asked the SS leader, Heinrich Himmler, for permission to marry in 1938, giving proof that he and his fiancée were Aryans. He later said he wore his SS uniform only once, the day of that marriage to Charlotte Wegener. In a ceremony celebrating the Eiger triumph in 1938, Mr. Harrer shook hands with Hitler and had his picture taken with him.

Mr. Harrer reacted to the disclosure of a Nazi past by saying that he had committed no crimes or atrocities. He said he understood and regretted his mistakes. He explained that he joined the SS only in order to coach skiing, and never coached an SS member.

Here is Nazi Harrer in Tibet

Years later with his mentor. There are tons of pictures of them together, they were BFF

[JVS]

23. Was Harrer involved with the Ahnenerbe?

[Paul E Ester]

33. Never heard of Ahnenerbe

I will check it out.

Thanks!

[jazzimov]

38. Obviously, you don't know what the word "mentor" means.

And you obviously don't know anything about Buddhism.

Personally, I prefer Daoism to Buddhism. There are stories that Lao-zi actually tried to teach Guantanamo Buddha, but he never really got it "right". BTW, there have been many Buddhas throughout history - something few people know.

But in both philosophies there is no such thing as "good" or "evil" - these are man-made terms. All people stray from their true nature; which some try to pigeon-hole as "evil".

But, as someone upthread noted about Jesus hanging out with "undesirables" - if you disagree with someone do you shun them, or do you get to know them and try to show them the errors in their thinking?

[AsahinaKimi]

100. great reply

Thanks for that. I am Jodo Shinshu, but I don't practice. I love learning more about Shinto, as it fascinates me.

[jazzimov]

171. Thank you, Ms. Asahini!

I'll admit that I'm not really familiar with Shinto, and I haven't even heard of Jodo Shinsho althoug I promise that now I will become more familiar with both!

The one thing that I have learned is that ALL writings are biased, one way or another. Which is understandable, considering that they were written by humans and filtered through human understanding.

I would love to talk to you more about your own personal understandings and interpretations. I have found in the past that such discussions are much more "fruitful" than reading dry texts on the matter.

As a Buddhist parable says, "I can use my finger to point at the moon, but my finger is NOT the moon; and once you see the moon, you no longer need my finger."

[Robb]

26. (cough)

http://election.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3133656

[MH1]

34. Hmm. Quite interesting, now that you mention it.

I sure Believe It is interesting, anyway.

[SidDithers]

45. Yup. That's what I was thinking in reply #1...

Reminds you of someone too, eh?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=3260570&mesg_id=3263506

Sid

[FSogol]

121. LOL. By their hatred we shall know them.

PS. Didn't the Dalai Lama retire?

[freshwest]

163. FFS. Obama bashing to commence in 4... 3... 2... 1...

[freshwest]

162. ZOMG! Not again. And here I thought I was getting some primo science fiction.

[Deep13]

30. Yeah, he's a huckster.

Distressing to see so many otherwise smart, well-meaning people fall for his trite greeting card philosophy. If he really wants to free Tibet, he should renounce his claim to the throne. That would go a long way to finding common ground with China.

[jazzimov]

40. Why do you think he's a "huckster"?

As for "his claim to the throne", he was "picked". It is not something that he can simply reject or give up. And describing his philosophy as "trite greeting card" tells me that you understand none of it.

Again, I prefer Daoism over Buddhism, but Buddhism and Daoism have much in common. I think I can explain it to you, if you decide to listen. Unfortunately, I don't think you want to listen.

[Deep13]

95. So when the money he received from the CIA in the 1960s dried up...

he began touring Western nations posing as a humble monk and also somehow a semi-divine being to raise money from wealthy and gullible supporters. And yeah, his derivative, simplistic aphorisms are designed to impress stupid Hollywood types. In private, he lives the life of privilege and luxury. He can absolutely give up the at this point academic claim to the throne of Tibet and the absolute dictatorship that goes with it.

So, we got claims to simple peacefulness after taking CIA money to undermine Chinese rule.

And we have the contradictory claim of being divinely chosen for absolute rule.

We have peddling unoriginal and trite philosophy that purports to be a cure all for the world.

Finally, we have raking in cash from anyone who will part with it.

All this together = huckster. Seriously, how is he any different from TV evangelists?

[jazzimov]

174. You seriously want to compare him to TV Evangelists?

First of all, I have my own "issues" with Buddhism in general, as I have stated before. But the assertions you have made show a definite misunderstanding of Buddhism and the Dalai Lama.

Let's begin with your assertion that there is no difference between him and TV Evangelists:

First of all, let's consider "where the money is going". All of the CIA money went toward subversive movements against the Chinese oppressive government. Also, when he won the Nobel Peace Prize, he announced that he would use the money to begin foundations to help people. Yes, he may solicit money on occasion, but it is for the benefit of ALL people and not for himself - and certainly not to consolidate his POWER as TV Evangelists so often do

Then, let's look at the MESSAGE he delivers. Which also delves into some of your other "charges":

Yes, his message is "simple" - but so many messages are simple but hard for us to carry out, because WE make them hard! Look at John Lennon's message - is it not simple? As the Dao De Jing (Tao Te Ching) says, "my words are simple to understand, but difficult to carry out". And, in the immortal words of Pete Townshend "You've been told many times before, the Messiah's pointed to the door, but no one had the guts to leave the Temple!"

As for your assertion of a "contradictory claim of being divinely chosen for absolute rule", nothing could be further from the Truth! First of all, what is your definition of being "divinely chosen"? There is NO correlation in Buddhism. and as far as "absolute rule", again, there is NO correlation in the Buddhism. You either believe or don't believe. It is up to the individual to follow the teachings. There is no one forcing you to follow.

I fear that you are trying too hard to force philosophies you don't understand into a mold that you do understand - into which they don't fit at all.

I read that you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. You can't. You have to understand where the Dalai Lama is coming from before you can pass judgement.

Isn't that a Liberal value?

[HiPointDem]

185. 99% of religious leaders live off their followers. That's fundamental. And just because someone

sets up a charitable foundation doesn't mean they're doing a lot of charity. Foundations & non-profits are used to scam people as often as not.

They're also a good way to keep a lot of money and not get taxed on it, while using it to pay oneself a salary, keep offices, keep buildings for the foundation's purposes that can also be used as living quarters, etc.

You're quoting pop songs in your effort to prove the importance of the dalai lama's message? that's a big fail right there. i could buy a CD instead of the DL's book, apparently.

and accusing the poster of not understanding 'the philosophy'? and implying *you* 'understand where the dalai lama is coming from'? do you know him personally, on an intimate level? i barely know where my own mother is coming from, but you presume you understand the heart of the DL?

oh the humanity.

here's the deal. i make no claim to know anything about 'where the dalai lama is coming from.' but i do know that his tutor was first a nazi, then a cia guy and that the DL took money from the CIA for about 20 years. and that that money was used to fund guerilla operations -- military operations which involved killing people.

by that, i know the DL is not averse to war or violence. end of story.

i can find pictures of the DL with people like Bush and the Pope; i can find the DL talking about forgiving people like Pinochet.

I can't find pictures of the DL embracing Hugo Chavez or Castro, or asking folks to forgive Stalin or Mao.

[Warpy]

36. Forgiving someone doesn't mean allowing them to escape consequences

They're two different things.

He's right about forgiving monsters. Letting go of hate is freeing. It doesn't mean you don't want those monsters out of power, discredited, humiliated, and in prison. You just no longer have a personal stake in the matter and hope it helps them rethink things completely.

That's how I feel about that last administration.

[magical thyme]

39. I rode in a dressage clinic with a former Nazi from the German military

Fritz Stecken was considered the greatest dressage trainer in the world back in the 50s. By the mid-late 60s he'd been "dropped" by the high end of the riding world. Around 1970 I was invited to ride in a clinic with him, in a small group of advanced students. I was 16 years old at the time, and thrilled.

For 4 days, we rode as a group and received our lesson in front of the audience and then had a private "roundtable" discussion with Mr. Stecken at the farm's kitchen table.

On the 4th day was when I learned of his military history. He didn't go into detail, simply broke into an emotional, confession sort of rant. He was just a peasant farm-boy. He joined the army so he could ride. It was the only way he would be able to ride. He didn't know. He didn't know what would come. He was clearly wracked with guilt and shame.

There. That is my sordid past. Had my father been there, I could post pictures of me sitting at a kitchen table with a former Nazi from their cavalry. As it is, I can only relay the story.

He was already very old and I was very young. I never saw him again, but I still have his book in my library.

[Paul E Ester]

41. Dalai Lama: I love George W. Bush

President George W. Bush has an adoring fan — in none other than the Dalai Lama.

Asked about the people he’s met who have really impressed him, the Tibetan leader-in-exile said during a sit-down with CNN’s Piers Morgan that other than Nelson Mandela — whom he considers “quite impressive” — he also admires Bush.

“I love President Bush,” the Dalai Lama said.

“Which one?” Morgan asked.

“The younger one.”

Clearly taken aback by the answer, Morgan quipped, “Really?”

“Yes, really,” the Dalai Lama insisted, before adding, “As a human being. Not as a president of America. Sometimes his policy may not be very, very successful. But as a person, as a human being, very nice person. I love him."

http://www.politico.com/blogs/click/2012/04/dalai-lama-i-love-george-w-bush-121581.html

He has been quoted as saying “Sleep is the best meditation.” May I suggest his holiness wake up to the fact that the two wars started by his friend George W. Bush are the clearest violations of his own espoused principles of peace and non-violence. Really, does no one else find it absurd that the Dalai Lama has on multiple occasions since 2001 stood unopposed to the brutal, barbaric and illegal wars first in Afghanistan and later Iraq? This sought-after personality loved by celebrities, the CIA, political leaders and civilians alike restated today in Calgary that “It’s hard to tell which category the current military interventions in Afghanistan and Iraq will eventually fall into.”

http://pulsemedia.org/2009/10/02/the-absurdity-of-the-dalai-lama/

[jazzimov]

44. Sometimes, emphasis is everything.

Let me quote your quote, with a little different emphasis:

“Yes, really,” the Dalai Lama insisted, before adding, “As a human being. Not as a president of America. Sometimes his policy may not be very, very successful. But as a person, as a human being, very nice person. I love him."

I rest my case.

[Paul E Ester]

126. The Dalai Lama and the War in Iraq, in his own words.

"Lets remember the war we're talking about."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Positive result or total failure, history will tell.

[BlueToTheBone]

202. who knew Bush the Dumber would paint cute dog pictures

and have people ooh over him and his Chauncey Gardner new face. So the Dalai Lama saw that in him then.

[Firebrand Gary]

46. To the trash, your post goes....

[flvegan]

47. Haters gonna hate, I guess.

Everything else be damned.

[Denzil_DC]

48. You know who else loved people ...?

[Robb]

49. Alferd Packer?

[Denzil_DC]

50. I'd skip the all-day breakfast n/t

[lunasun]

51. No picture of him with that Nazi pope Ratwhateverhisname? 2 for 1 photo op if you can find it.

[Orrex]

52. I would love to live as a universally adored and astronomically wealthy ascetic

Nice gig, if you can get it.

When a super-rich internet entrepreneur writes bullshit op ed about simplifying our material lives, he's rightly and properly attacked for it. But when an even wealthier international celebrity likewise sings the merits of simplification, he's praised for his transcendent wisdom.

No, thanks.

[Bluenorthwest]

53. It is funny to read that forgiveness is a bad thing

Some would say Jesus taught forgiveness of one's enemies and love for all, starting with those who are least 'worthy' of love. This non Christian religious leader seems to follow that far more than a man who stands up and spews venom against good people, who calls his neighbors and congregants the work of the devil.
But what's Jesus got to do with Christianity, right OP? A vapid teacher who missed all the important parts such as 'hold a grudge and hate the gays'.

[TM99]

54. It is so sad the amount of hatred & misinformation in this thread.

Before Tibet was invaded the Dalai Lama was already beginning democratic reforms within Tibet. After the exile, he implemented them in India as early as 1960. Please do a little research on the Parliament of Central Tibetan Administration also known as the Tibetan Government in Exile.

H.H. the Dalai Lama helped to set it up and has maintained from day one that it does not seek a violent overthrow or liberation of Tibet, however, once Tibetans regain self-rule and a democratic government can be developed there free from Communist China, the Government in Exile will be dissolved. H.H. was the head of the Government in Exile with a Prime Minister for much of the last 40 years. However, as of 2011, at the request of H.H., he is no longer the temporal leader of the Government. The current Prime Minister Kalon Tripa is the leader of the Tibetans in exile.

I have had the fortune of personally knowing H.H. the Dalai Lama for over 25 years since I did the Kalachakra Empowerment with him in New York in 1991. He is one of the smartest, kindest, and wisest men I have ever met. He is not a 'god' and anyone who actually takes the time to understand Tibetan Buddhism will know this. Tibetans will show compassion towards everyone even those who most of us would judge as being too evil to even receive such care. I certainly can not claim to be that loving.

I am an ignostic Buddhist with practices in Zen and Theravadin schools. While I have much experience with Tibetan Tantric practices and the tradition, there is much I do not agree with 'spiritually'. I have spoken of such thoughts very openly with H.H. the Dalai Lama. He is not the 'pope' of Buddhism. He is just one great teacher in a 2500 year history of other great Buddhist teachers.

I guess the post-modern extreme Leftists need to tear down anything and anyone of goodness and traditional value is so strong that it resorts to lies, guilt by association, myths, ignorance, and rage to accomplish its tragic goal. H.H. the Dalai Lama has done more genuine and real good for more people in a single year than the OP will likely do in a lifetime.

[Paul E Ester]

55. There is nothing post modern about exposing a TOOL of the CIA,

Last edited Thu Mar 21, 2013, 03:38 PM - Edit history (1)

a Charlatan, a supposed royal deity, and a groupie to NAZI Esoterism.

The CIA used the gullible american public to adopt this deity as their pet. It goes to show how little people dig beyond the surface.

The Dalai Lama's administration acknowledged today that it received $1.7 million a year in the 1960's from the Central Intelligence Agency, but denied reports that the Tibetan leader benefited personally from an annual subsidy of $180,000.

The money allocated for the resistance movement was spent on training volunteers and paying for guerrilla operations against the Chinese, the Tibetan government-in-exile said in a statement. It added that the subsidy earmarked for the Dalai Lama was spent on setting up offices in Geneva and New York and on international lobbying.

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html

180k in the sixties, he was living like a PIMP. Is this stooge of the murderous CIA, still an Agent? Is he still on the payroll of the “Pickle Factory”. Maybe he was a technical advisor the murderous operation Phoenix which was happing at the same time he was on their payroll.

While he was encouraging his people to die as cannon fodder to the Chinese. Mr. (Vow of) Poverty was hanging out with celebrities, while jet setting around the world staying at the finest hotels and living the lifelstyle of a royal KING on the US & poor tibetens dime.

PS: "Guerilla Operations" is NYTimes speak for TERRORISM.

[SidDithers]

56. Keep trying...

Sid

[TM99]

58. Conspiracy Theorists like yourself

rarely live in the real world, do you?

If only the west had had the balls to actually, you know, really fight the Chinese over Tibet in the 1950's. We did it in Korea but hey, we didn't realize there were rare earth metals in Tibet that we would need for our technology until almost 50 years late. So only in the 1960's, the USA 'supported' the resistance movement in Tibet by giving a piddling sum to the Government in Exile.

You do realize the 1960's was over 40 years ago, right?

So 'Guerilla Operations' against the Chinese invaders of the sovereign nation of Tibet is 'Terrorism' now?

Why are you going off on this? Are you Chinese? Are you Tibetan? What's got you all in a tizzy to attack an old man who has done more good in this world than you could even imagine doing?

I am open to trying at least once to understand why you are so adamantly opposed to the Dalai Lama and why today? If all I receive in reply is more rantings and obfuscations, I will sadly put you on Ignore.

[HiPointDem]

75. 1.7 million a year = a piddly sum? in the 60s the population of tibet was about 1.3 million.

sounds fairly substantial to me.

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/651478?uid=3739856&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101903731901

[TM99]

96. What is the population of the United States?

What is our current government budget in 2013 dollars?

Extrapolate accordingly and you will understand why I used the word piddly to describe how much financial support clandestinely given through the CIA, the US gave to Tibet. In case you need help with the math, the population is around 300 million and the 2012 government budget was approximately 3.5 trillion.

Now, shall we compare the support given to Tibet in the 1960's only with support to Israel yearly since Word War II? In the 1960's alone, the US 'secretly' gave Israel through Germany over $80.00 million a year in armaments alone. Since then Israel has been the highest receiver of foreign financial aid both humanitarian and military totaling in the billions of dollars.

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/international/conflicts/u-s-foreign-aid-to-israel-2012-congressional-report#

We continue this financial support even when Israel breaks international law in its treatment of Palestinians. Their current apartheid-like treatment is eerily similar to the Chinese treatment of Tibet, yet the dollars keep flowing because Israel is a military ally. We need that oil in the middle east more than we care for the atrocities the Chinese have perpetrated upon Tibetans since the 1950's.

Now look at this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid

How many nations in that list have committed incredible humanitarian atrocities against their own people and yet the US gives them millions?

This thread is nothing more than leftist Chinese propaganda and so many educated and supposedly compassionate liberals are falling for the bullshit left and right.

Notice that when I bluntly ask the OP to tell me why they are posting this thread in personal terms so that I might understand and empathize with them, they have never responded. And I doubt they ever will because it isn't real. It is just astroturfing.

So, please just give it a rest.

[HiPointDem]

115. Tibet's economy is subsistence agriculture, and the Dalia lama was in exile. So your comparison

to the budget of the US, a developed country with developed infrastructure and a huge military, is silly.

Also note that the 1.7 million was 1960s dollars. Tibet's entire GDP today is about $6 billion.

The money was used to support the DL & fund covert operations.

Whatever your opinions about the righteousness of the DL's cause, he is not just a simple apolitical monk.

[TM99]

151. Again, you are arguing straw men.

Where did I say he was apolitical. He was until 2011 both the spiritual leader and the temporal leader of the Tibetan people.

The amount of funding given by the CIA which funded military responses against Chinese invaders and the Dalai Lama and the exile government is minuscule no matter whether it was in 1960 dollars or 2012 dollars nor whether it was an agrarian society or a 1st world empire like the US.

This does not change that H.H. the Dalai Lama is a remarkably compassionate man who has done much for his people and those who follow the teachings of various schools of Buddhism. The propaganda is that he is somehow a Nazi, or a mere puppet of the CIA, or whatever. This is specious and untrue.

[HiPointDem]

184. you have no idea what kind of person he is. you see his public face, and that's all.

i said he took millions from the CIA from the 1950s into the 1970s. and he did, self-admittedly. and that money wasn't used to run the tibetan government, it was used to finance military operations against the chinese, and to support the DL.

heinrich harrer, his supposed tutor, was also a CIA employee.

[TM99]

189. Again, you did not read the words given to you.

I do know what kind of person His Holiness is. He is one of my Tibetan Buddhist teachers, and I have had enough regular and intimate contact to know the man behind the title and the public face.

Is he a 'god'? Absolutely not! Is he 'perfect'? Are you kidding? Of course not! He is a hell of a lot more compassionate and loving that I am.

I have no problem owning the fact that is very hard for me to feel that level of compassion for you though I do feel sorry for you.

You are so full of vitriol and ignorance. Further you present so many outright lies and distortions in public even when presented with facts by those who might actually know more than you on the topic. If it was just between the two of us in private, I would not have continued this discussion this far. I would have walked away sooner.

All I really can do now is just end this. You may have the last word if you would like as I am now putting you on Ignore for the immediate future.

[HiPointDem]

192. how much does it cost to be taught by the Dalai lama, 'intimately'? inquiring minds want to know.

point out my lies.

oh, you can't, because you put me on ignore, after telling me i'm an ignorant liar who is 'full of vitriol'. but you compassionately 'feel sorry for me.'

your 'compassion' is arrogance and will to power. dominance games dressed as spirituality.

"those who might actually know more than you on the topic."

this topic being 'buddhism,' a several thousand year old religion that existed over about half the globe at some time or another. which your 1967 high council has helpfully boiled down to nine neat points to be used as a club on the 'ignorant'.

the dalai lama self-admittedly took money from the cia from the 50s into the 70s. the money was used to finance guerilla operations against the chinese (e.g. weapons, killing) and to support the DL. ergo, the DL is not 'non-violent'.

that's a simple fact, whether you like it or not.

[magical thyme]

57. I would say a right wing tool of China

rather than post-modern extreme leftist. But I'm just guessing here.

Not going to waste any more time on this poster, nor give this thread any extra kicks.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

60. I note that you don't appear to attempt to address the post you reply to.

You put forward lots of vague generalities, and call people lots of rude names, but you don't actually claim that any of the specifics of what is said here are wrong.

Now, I'm not saying that I think they're true - I have no idea if they are or not. But your reply makes me think it more likely that they are than I would otherwise, frankly.

[TM99]

64. Hardly.

I address the root. Perhaps you need to re-read what has been offered and what I directly said.

Identifying correctly the philosophical and political agendas of extremists for what they are is hardly being rude.

If you have no knowledge and fail to read a cogent reply from someone who does have knowledge, and it makes you more likely to believe those like the OP that simply has an agenda is your choice of course.

I would encourage you instead to read on Tibet, its people and its religion. Take the time to read some of H.H. the Dalai Lama's writings. Take the time to meet Tibetan Buddhists. Listen to stories as I have of monks who were literally and physically tortured by the Chinese invaders.

If you feel at all sympathetic towards the Tibetan people or China, please read this article and reflect on it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/06/china-plans-theme-park-tibet

Don't fall for the propaganda. More importantly don't just trust me. Go, read, experience, and figure it out for yourself.

[HiPointDem]

123. One's take on the politics of the situation are irrelevant to the fact that the Dalai Lama

was funded by the CIA well into his 30s. Reportedly from the 50s into the 70s.

This is not 'propaganda,' he's admitted it. You may think he had good reasons to do so, others may feel differently. But the fact remains, he *did*.

[TM99]

150. I did not state otherwise.

I clarified the context which given the hit and run nature of this OP is most definitely propaganda.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

59. Trash thread and probably block poster as well.

[FSogol]

122. You Better Believe it!

[UnrepentantLiberal]

124. Thin ice.

[datasuspect]

61. somewhere

a rube is getting shilled because of religious hokum.

it's older than prostitution.

[Warren DeMontague]

63. Oh, God, Not This Crap Again.

Cough. Propaganda. Cough.

[zappaman]

77. I miss UNREC

How funny that even DU's resident conspiracy cranks are staying away from this bullshit.

[FSogol]

119. Agreed. Bring back the unrec! n/t

[upaloopa]

78. guilt by association?

[janlyn]

86. forgivness

I have absolutely no idea what has occured in your life to fill you with so much negativity and venom. Whatever it is I hope you can look within yourself and try to find some peace.

Anger towards others is like taking poison and waiting for others to die!!!

[elleng]

106. Haters have to hate.

[AsahinaKimi]

108. I wish

I could rec your post!

[elleng]

109. Thanks, Kimi.

Somehow got stuck into reading this thread, and can't believe the amount of hatred (and misinformation.) Never again.

[jazzimov]

177. Yes, and in the spirit of the Dalai Lama,

Buddhists, Daoists, and Liberals everywhere -

we should feel sorry for them. Because their HATE will consume them, and they will never find happiness. they feel that their HATE makes them feel superior which is their latent desire.

If they would only embrace their personal uniqueness and put themselves as equals to the uniqueness of others .... only then can we truly understand our own uniqueness.

But, as you said, "haters" have already decided their stand. So, "haters" are gonna "hate".

Sad, but a Truism.

[defacto7]

112. This is one of the most hilarious threads I have read on DU...

Seems like more itches than scratches!

I've learned during these more religious moments how divisive people get when it comes to non-existent points.

And it is very funny.

[freshwest]

164. It was the UFO part that sucked me in. I love that stuff. Don't believe it, but dayum!

[FSogol]

118. Heinrich Harrer was a mountain climber who only joined the Nazi party in able to be chosen to go on

state-sponsored climbing expeditions. He was the subject of the film "7 Years in Tibet." If this is your method of bashing the Dalai Lama, it is a massive fail.

[HiPointDem]

127. he joined the SS the day after the anschluss began, so i doubt it. he was already famous

before he joined.

[FSogol]

128. Yeah, a famous climber who was left off of German expeditions because he wasn't in the party.

Hardly a reason to hate the Dalai Lama.

[HiPointDem]

129. 1. He was austrian. 2. He was on the 1935/6 austrian olympic skiing team. 3. The anschluss

is when the nazis took over austria.

Harrer joined the party the day after it began.

yeah, it was all about being on german climbing teams.

not.

here's what he himself says:

As a result of the interest the project excited during the production stage, an investigation undertaken by an Austrian radio presenter, Gerald Lehner, in the German Federal Archives in Berlin and then published in Stern magazine, revealed Harrer to have had a Nazi past. It emerged that less than a month after the Anschluss in 1938, he had joined the SS.

He did not attempt to deny this. When asked for an explanation, he said: "Well, I was young. I was, I admit it, extremely ambitious and I was asked if I would become the teacher of the SS at skiing. I have to say I jumped at the chance. I also have to say that if the Communist party had invited me I would have joined. And if the very Devil had invited me I would have gone with the Devil."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1507308/Heinrich-Harrer.html


he also worked for the cia post-war:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.salzburg.com/nachrichten/welt/politik/sn/artikel/heinrich-harrer-war-offenbar-auch-fuer-cia-taetig-18584/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dheinrich%2Bharrer%2Bwikileaks%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D994%26bih%3D574&sa=X&ei=U8NMUbC6Ko_yiQLpu4CoDw&ved=0CGgQ7gEwCQ

[FSogol]

130. Wow, he wanted to ski and climb. How evil can you get!

Laughable!

[HiPointDem]

131. and worked for the CIA post-war. no doubt for the chance to ski & climb.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.salzburg.com/nachrichten/welt/politik/sn/artikel/heinrich-harrer-war-offenbar-auch-fuer-cia-taetig-18584/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dheinrich%2Bharrer%2Bwikileaks%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D994%26bih%3D574&sa=X&ei=U8NMUbC6Ko_yiQLpu4CoDw&ved=0CGgQ7gEwCQ


ps: when you joined the storm troopers the day after your country is taken over by the enemy it's not because you want to ski and climb.

[FSogol]

132. Didn't Harrer die about 5 years ago? What is the point of this?

I anxiously await your posts about how Idi Amin and Pol Pot were evil men.

[HiPointDem]

133. I didn't say harrar was 'evil'. In 1938, do you really imagine there were some neutral

german climbing expeditions, just for the pure sport of it?

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/nazi_connection_shambhala_tibet.html


Intelligence expeditions is more like it. All big-power politics.

(Germany) sent an official expedition to Tibet between 1938 and 1939 at the invitation of the Tibetan Government to attend the Losar (New Year) celebrations.

Tibet had suffered a long history of Chinese attempts to annex it and British failure to prevent the aggression or to protect Tibet. Under Stalin, the Soviet Union was severely persecuting Buddhism, specifically the Tibetan form as practiced among the Mongols within its borders and in its satellite, the People’s Republic of Mongolia (Outer Mongolia).

In contrast, Japan was upholding Tibetan Buddhism in Inner Mongolia, which it had annexed as part of Manchukuo, its puppet state in Manchuria. Claiming that Japan was Shambhala, the Imperial Government was trying to win the support of the Mongols under its rule for an invasion of Outer Mongolia and Siberia to create a pan-Mongol confederation under Japanese protection.

The Tibetan Government was exploring the possibility of also gaining protection from Japan in the face of the unstable situation. Japan and Germany had signed an Anti-Commintern Pact in 1936, declaring their mutual hostility toward the spread of international Communism. The invitation for the visit of an official delegation from Nazi Germany was extended in this context.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/nazi_connection_shambhala_tibet.html

Harrar joined the party because he was ambitious, as he admitted. His ambition wasn't confined to mountaineering.

and it appears that he was associated with the nazis as early as 1933. his partner in escaping from the british to tibet was also a mountaineer and had joined the nazis in 1933 as well. both stayed years in tibet.

I don't give a damn about harrar per se; the information is simply offered as corrective to the party line painting buddhism as some kind of atheistic neutral religion of peace.

particularly since at least a couple of the posters promoting this line were all over the catholic threads pushing a different line re catholicism.

buddhism has been an instrument of state militarism just as often as not (probably more often) and has typically been a religion of the ruling class v. the peons.

[FSogol]

135. What intelligence was there to be gained by sending wave after wave of climbers

at the Eiger? Hitler wanted some German "superman" successes and didn't care about the human cost.

Sorry Hannah, but this thread trying to show the "evil-ness" of the now-retired Dalia Lama for associating with a now-deceased quasi-Nazi 60 years is really dumb.

[HiPointDem]

137. my name isn't hannah. hitler did not send 'wave after wave' of climbers at the eiger.

and it's historical fact that exploration, mountain climbing, etc. had a high component of intelligence personnel as compared to the general population, and that such expeditions are not uncommonly cover for intelligence-gathering.

the german alpine association was the first such sporting association to exclude jews.

http://www.dw.de/alpine-club-examines-historical-ties-to-nazis/a-16214770

I have not said anything about the dalai lama being 'evil' either.

straw men are a sign that you can't argue based on the facts.

[FSogol]

141. You are wrong about the Eiger (among other things). I recommend the

2008 German Film, "North Face" on the subject.

BTW, Your argument that mountaineering was for intelligence gathering, is complete and utter nonsense. Look at a map, those mountainous regions are some of the most isolated places on the planet. When someone like British Explorer, William Martin Conway was actually gathering info on South American resources, he took breaks from intelligence gathering to go climbing. His climbing had nothing to do with Government secrets.

[HiPointDem]

145. no, i'm not wrong in saying that hitler didn't throw 'wave after wave' of climbers at the eiger.

intelligence gathering is common in isolated places. 'intelligence' doesn't only mean information about people; it means information about resources, terrain, etc.

you think only big cities are interesting to globally-oriented intelligencers?

historical fact: it ain't the case.

and the area is not as isolated as you make out, either. else it couldn't have been able to materially support the tibetan monasteries and the monks wouldn't have been receiving delegates from germany for celebrations.

(Germany) sent an official expedition to Tibet between 1938 and 1939 at the invitation of the Tibetan Government to attend the Losar (New Year) celebrations.

Tibet had suffered a long history of Chinese attempts to annex it and British failure to prevent the aggression or to protect Tibet. Under Stalin, the Soviet Union was severely persecuting Buddhism, specifically the Tibetan form as practiced among the Mongols within its borders and in its satellite, the People’s Republic of Mongolia (Outer Mongolia).

In contrast, Japan was upholding Tibetan Buddhism in Inner Mongolia, which it had annexed as part of Manchukuo, its puppet state in Manchuria. Claiming that Japan was Shambhala, the Imperial Government was trying to win the support of the Mongols under its rule for an invasion of Outer Mongolia and Siberia to create a pan-Mongol confederation under Japanese protection.

The Tibetan Government was exploring the possibility of also gaining protection from Japan in the face of the unstable situation. Japan and Germany had signed an Anti-Commintern Pact in 1936, declaring their mutual hostility toward the spread of international Communism. The invitation for the visit of an official delegation from Nazi Germany was extended in this context.

http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/kalachakra/shambhala/nazi_connection_shambhala_tibet.html

some reading for you:


In 1955, Sydney Wignall organized the Welsh Himalayan expedition to climb Tibet's highest mountain, Gurla Mandhata. But Wignall and two of his companions were more than just mountaineers; before setting out, Wignall had been recruited by a covert faction within Indian intelligence to report on Chinese military operations in newly invaded Tibet. Wignall and his band of unlikely spies were soon captured and imprisoned by the Red Army, thus beginning an ordeal that would draw on their last reserves of physical and emotional strength.

http://www.amazon.com/Spy-The-Roof-World-Espionage/dp/1585740691/ref=pd_sim_b_1

http://www.amazon.com/Spies-Himalayas-Missions-Perilous-Studies/dp/0700612238/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_1


There's also sir edmund hillary's expedition of 600 that supposedly went looking for Sasquatches:

The story might end at this point—were it not for the despatch from Katmandu sent in by the Special Correspondent of the Floerentine * newspaper Nazione, Corrado Piccinelli and published in that paper the other day. In it he says that while Hillary was supposed to be looking for the Snow Man, he was actually spying on China. The Italian journalist makes fun of those who believe or pretend to believe that the famous New Zealand mountain climber headed that large expedition because he was concerned to find proof of the existence of the Snow Man. The Italian journalist writes:

"It isn't that at all. What is really the case is that his scientific expedition of 600 men [!] is there chiefly to draw up exact maps of that inaccessible region, due to the absence of such maps until now … and finally to establish the truth of the rumour that communist China has fired rockets, missiles and sputniks."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/lcr/abs/abs30.htm

[Catherina]

136. Fuck it. I'm reccing this because I'm sick of the hypocrisy.

Not the best timing for your post but the hypocrisy on this issue never changes.

[HiPointDem]

138. ditto. some of the very same posters screaming for the head of the pope are here talking

up the dalai lama & buddhism.

hypocrites indeed.

[Catherina]

139. I've been thinking of writing a factual post about how the CIA has been subverting

and infiltrating the Vatican for decades but for all the attention that would garner, I decided not to and stick to other pressing issues. Sometimes I really despair. And in another decade when more information comes out about the great Lama, everyone will pretend they always knew this and fought it. Like the Iraq War. What a sick game made possible only by its enablers and apologists.

[HiPointDem]

140. that would be interesting & i encourage you to post it. every religious institution is political,

& all accounts that paint religious bodies as motivated solely by their religion (either for 'good' or 'evil') are false.

i think that these issues are not so far removed from what seem to be more pressing matters.

[Catherina]

156. Btw, "Orlando Yorio and I were not denounced by Father Bergoglio."

He (Jalics) elaborated on Wednesday, saying: "The fact is: Orlando Yorio and I were not denounced by Father Bergoglio."

Jalics said "false information was spread" at the time that he and Yorio had gone to the slums because they were part of a guerrilla movement — and he suspects those rumors were the reason why the priests weren't freed immediately.

"I myself was once inclined to believe that we were the victims of a denunciation," Jalics said. But "at the end of the 90s, after numerous conversations, it became clear to me that this suspicion was unfounded. It is therefore wrong to assert that our capture took place at the initiative of Father Bergoglio."

...

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/priest-kidnapped-junta-denounced-pope-18774266#.UU39yRzXh8E

Hat tip to Princess Turandot

Edit, I'll get around to that CIA thing soon. Thanks.

[HiPointDem]

157. interesting, thanks.

[Douglas Carpenter]

178. throughout the entire colonial world in the 30's and 40's affinity

with either the fascist of Europe or with the Japanese was not an unusual phenomena. "My enemy's enemy" is simply how the world has always operated when it came down to life and death struggles for domination. As someone on our side once said in response to criticism of the allies for forming an alliance with Stalin, "I would fight on the side of the devil - if the devil was fighting Adolf Hitler."

[mmonk]

198. I'm curious. What is the purpose of this thread?

Who is to be hated, wide brushed, etc. and who is to be elevated?

[Taverner]

200. He was a paid op of the CIA during the 60s and 70s