Do you know why Catholics put money in the collection plate at Sunday mass?

[scarletwoman]

Because they want to contribute to the upkeep of their parish church. They want to help pay for the heat and lights and the maintenance on the church building. They want to help pay for the room and board of their parish priest. They also want to help pay for whatever charitable projects their parish may be undertaking - shelter for the homeless, clothes for impoverished children, food for impoverished families, outreach to addicts, to those living on the streets, refuge for illegal immigrants.

But mostly, they just want to help support their sense of community with their fellow parishoners. They want to preserve their church as a gathering place, as a place of prayer and communion.

They aren't thinking about the far away institution of Vatican dictates and Vatican politics. They just want to help pay for the heat and electricity needed to keep their church functioning. They want to help pay for repairs to the roof so that it doesn't leak.

The attack on Catholics because they drop a few dollars a week into the collection plate at mass is absurd. They're not doing it because they approve of the heirarchy in Rome, or because they love the Cardinals and the Bishops, they're only doing it because they want to support their own parish community.

I was raised Catholic, I went to Catholic school for the first 8 years of my schooling - and for this I will always be grateful. I was privileged to receive a truly classic education, with a wider range of liberal arts training than any of my public school peers ever received. The Latin training alone led me to a lifelong appreciation of etymology and love of language and history.

While I left the Church behind nearly 50 years ago, I do not at all regret my early years within the Catholic tradition. It's complicated, and I'm glad for the complication - it has challenged me and stretched me, and has made me always appreciative of complexity and subtilty.

I have no patience with the RCC heirarchy - those narrow hypocritical males in their robes and and their thoroughly fucked up morality. But I have plenty of compassion for the ordinary Catholics who attend mass on Sunday and drop a few dollars into the collection plate so that the heat stays on in their church building during the winter.

sw

[marybourg]

1. Very nicely said.

[zentrum]

111. Sorry--not off the hook

The same "community" you describe, in the same building that needs a new roof, is the exact point of contact where political activities take place that effect all of us. It's at this point of contact that John Kerry was demonized because he supported freedom of choice, and a sharp division of Church and State. It's this point of contact that preaches against gay marriage.

By analogy, though there are some "good" Republican who are sincere in their believes---you won't find me giving any money to them any time soon--just because they are the "nice folk" I know.

Hope at least that at the same time as enabling all this--you are agitating like heck to get your church and community to stop interfering with the larger political process of civil rights for all of us. And petitioning the Vatican to open its books and change the whole culture of cover up that seems to permeate everywhere in the Catholic organization.

[marybourg]

113. I think you replied to the wrong post or the wrong person.

[southernyankeebelle]

128. You need to get over yourself. I don't care what religion you are people always give

to the local parish. I know the catholic church at times have more then one collection during one mass. It's not all for politics. Sometimes its for the priests or nuns care when they get old and can't take care of themselves. They also have a separate collection maybe for the Vatican or for some place like Haiti. But in the local church they have to take care of their own parish and help maintain the parish. I'm sick and tired of hearing it. I don't care what church it is I also believe in separation of church and state. But my goodness people have a right to go to church in peace. A majority of catholics don't hate gays but we don't want to leave our church either. You have no right to force people to make that choice. I don't contribute my money to any church any more. The more people talk bad about the church the more I become resentful of your hate.

[Bake]

186. But it's so much easier to feel morally superior when one is sitting at the keyboard.

And thinks the whole world is waiting on pins and needles for one's opinion.



Bake

[southernyankeebelle]

187. yes it is. How telling as we sit here on our keyboards.

[Bake]

188. Ouch.

Actually, I was referring to the ones who tell everybody else what they should and shouldn't contribute to, or that they should leave the RCC immediately, etc. I just don't think that's anybody else's business. And I don't feel morally superior about it.



Bake

[southernyankeebelle]

189. LOL your ok

[1monster]

131. Who died and made you God and arbiter of whose sense of community is good and whose

is bad? People earn their money and they have a right to dispose of it in whatever legal way they desire without submitting their contributions to you for your approval.

And your analogy if flawed. No one here is asking you to donate to any Catholic Church or to any Repubican. Whether or not people contribute via the collection plate or otherwise is really none of your business. Period.

[11 Bravo]

203. I could suggest a home for your "hook", but that might result in a hidden post.

And for God's sake, be careful! If you were to fall off of a horse as high as yours appears to be, you would almost certainly suffer a serious injury.

[Warpy]

2. Exactly and the people with the butts in the pews are sincere in their beliefs.

When believers tell me they've had enough of the church hierarchy, I send them over to the Anglicans. It's been a really good fit for most of them, the same church but without Rome.

However, they need to come to that conclusion, themselves. Trying to shame them or infantilize them by shoulding all over them is going to backfire.

[Squinch]

102. But the origins of Anglicanism are very silly, let's face it. If Ann had just agreed to have sex

with Henry without being married, the Anglicans would still all be Catholic.

[JNelson6563]

123. Or if the Pope weren't hostage to wife #1's nephew

and granted the divorce...

or if....

I think a protestant reformation would've come to England one way or another regardless. Gotta give it to Anne, though, master of the hold-out, eh?

Julie

[Squinch]

130. Lol! But it would have saved her a WHOLE lotta trouble if she hadn't held out.

[SemperEadem]

145. not for a young woman looking to make a good marriage

and who knew the value of her virginity to herself.

[Warpy]

133. That's probably an oversimplification

After all, she could have been forced. Henry had the means to throw her family off their lands, impoverish them, and keep them from all but the meanest itinerant labor. Her sister had borne five children for Henry during their affair and had been well taken care of. There was no reason for her to hold out for marriage, not with the precedence of another of Henry's illegitimate sons being inserted into the lineage.

The truth was that he was sick of a system whereby any of his decisions could be called into question by the church, whose officials were controlled by what he saw as a foreign power. In other words, he wanted to be the monarch of England and everyone in it, including all the vassals of Rome.

It was the question of a divine right king who wanted all the power, who was sick of answering to a bunch of bishops, and who wanted a free hand in his own country.

[CTyankee]

191. I am fascinated by the Anglicans. I have friends who are devout Anglicans, one of

whom, a woman, had wanted to become a priest at one point in her life. She is strongly Progressive on all issues from abortion to marriage equality to civil rights. And she is devoted to her High Church. She is also one of the most creative thinkers I have ever known.

It always pays not to pre-judge anyone based on just their religious profession...

[Squinch]

193. No question. I was just commenting on the origins of Anglicanism, not the quality of its

practitioners. I think the origins of most churches have some pretty strange stories. Anglicanism is no exception.

[CTyankee]

194. It's funny, but I never would think to discuss the roots of my friend's church. If

I did, I think she would probably laugh and say that her faith is more deeply rooted in the Christian faith and that is what matters. I doubt that she would care very much about Henry VIII. But that's an interesting question. She is a graduate of Yale Divinity School and I'd be interested in knowing what the thinking is there (altho the Div School was actually founded by American Congregationalists).

I agree with you, tho, that most religious bodies have strange histories. Frankly, it turns me off religion. And religion in my family has some roots. I have an ordained United Methodist Church minister (female) and will have (come June 8th) an ordained rabbi (female) in the Reformed Judaic movement. And my grandfather was a Southern Baptist minister...talk about strange roots...

[Gman]

3. Those attacking Catholics here are teabaggers that somehow think they're progressives.

Muslims, Catholics... what's the difference? They're all alike, aren't they?

[baldguy]

21. Right, just forget about the institutionalized homophobia, misogyny & pedophilia.

After all, the people the Church harms don't really matter, do they? That's the "progressive" Catholic Church, for you.

Real liberals and progressives are correctly concerned & appalled by the Church's actions, and they seek justice for the Church's crimes. To characterize these people as "Teabaggers" is unfair, unjustified & WAY, WAY over the the top.

[uppityperson]

44. Actually, "real liberals and progressive" can see the difference between the Vatican (The Church) &

those who are Catholics. Try this thread for more... http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022541318

Rather like disagreeing with the politics of an administration but not bashing all the people they rule over.

[wickerwoman]

68. That shit goes on in every church...

hell in every organisation.

Did you stop watching football because of Jerry Sandusky? Did you leave the Boy Scouts because of their policy on gay scout leaders?

My grandparents were deeply religious Catholics and while my parents and their siblings left the church, they always spoke with great respect about the parish priests who were active in the labor movement getting their heads bashed in right next to the union organisers, putting together soup kitchens to help striking workers, doing little tasks around the house or just sitting and talking with all the old widows in the neighbourhood.

The person you're responding to wasn't talking about people who are "concerned" about the church. They're talking about people who say that everyday Catholics are complicit in the larger organisation's crimes every time they drop a dollar in the collection plate. Which is, as you say, unfair, unjustified & WAY WAY over the top, right?

[Bradical79]

101. not true at all

All organizations don't support pedophiles, homophobes, murderers, etc.

[wickerwoman]

163. Not all organisations have been caught, but most of them have some skeletons in the closet.

There have been major pedophile scandals amongst the Hare Krishnas, Mormons, the Amish, pretty much every Southern Evangelical group. Most Western religions are homophobic to the core. They behead gay people in soccer stadiums in Saudi Arabia. Hindu and Buddhist faiths are both deeply misogynistic. Look at all the gang rapes on buses in India. In Buddhism, being born female (like being born an animal) is a punishment for your past mistakes.

I'm not Catholic, so I don't have skin in this game, but I think pretending covering up for atrocities is just a Catholic thing is very, very naive.

Certainly you can say the more authoritarian and hierarchical an organisation is, the more likely it is to cover up for the fuck ups of the people at the top but that's certainly not a strictly Catholic phenomenon.

[sabrina 1]

197. Well an awful lot of them do. The US Government eg, has been supporting racism, homophobia, torture,

murder, grand theft, not just of individuals or of banks, but of entire countries, dictators, allies who are pedophiles, who marry children etc for a long time. And there is no question that everyone paying taxes here is contributing to all these crimes. We could leave, people have been leaving their home countries throughout history for various reasons, but most Americans would prefer to stay and try to change these things, make it a better country. They have had some success, those who stayed, but the process to change huge organizations is a slow one, so it takes wisdom and patience, knowing the changes will be incremental at best.

[Skittles]

151. but bald guy, it is TRADITION!!!

along with the poverty and hunger caused by the INSANE policy on birth control, that's JUST THE WAY IT IS!! They demand RESPECT!!!

[RoccoR5955]

22. It's just another brand of mythology

as far as I'm concerned.
God ain't nothin' more than dog spelled backwards!

[amuse bouche]

53. That's true

but so many use it for nefarious reasons and pretend otherwise, that is not 'just' mythology

[LanternWaste]

126. Much as we use philosophy, politics, economics, the arts, and a whole host of imaginary constructs

Much as we use philosophy, politics, economics, the arts, and a whole host of imaginary constructs which exist nowhere but our minds for nefarious reasons and pretend otherwise... and pretend it's real rather than imaginary.

[YoungDemCA]

137. And mythology is bad...?

Or are you one of those people who would defund the arts, music, literature, philosophy, humanities, and social sciences because "you can't prove that stuff exists!"?

[RoccoR5955]

161. No, the arts are good.

The bad thing about this brand of fiction, is that it is used to control people, by a small "elite" group.

[Apophis]

33. Erm, what?

I'm against the cover up of pedophilia in the church. I'm against their bigotry against homosexuals. I'm against their stance on birth control and women's reproductive rights.

How the fuck does that make me a teabagger?

[amuse bouche]

48. Hahaha

That's hilarious

Edit to add the teabagger part is hilarious. They're mostly Evangelicals


How could you not know that?

[rhett o rick]

104. What is your intent with a rude post like that? Are you trying to

start a flame-war? If you think you are standing up for Catholics with that attitude, you need to rethink.

And dont call any DU poster a teabagger.

[Arugula Latte]

116. You are wrong, Gman.

But I guess it's nice to convince yourself of such.

[kwassa]

4. Great post!

The motivation is the same for many other denominations as well. The local church is the local community.

[pamela]

5. well said n/t

[Aristus]

6. Well said.

Bravo!...

[Humanist_Activist]

7. And some of that money goes to organizations like NOM, why isn't that acknowledged as well?

Accept the bad with the good, not to mention some of that charitable work isn't so charitable to certain segments of the population.

[Auntie Bush]

8. Nice post and explains a lot...things I never thought of...but wondered. nt

[Richardo]

9. Great post!

[MichiganVote]

10. Yeah. The parishes are all lilly white clean places of community

where no child or teen is ever abused and no one ever talks about the youth Father spends time with inappropriately.

[Richardo]

12. You're late for your Remedial Reading class.

[Posteritatis]

13. Because the OP said that, right?

Ugh, love the "I'm going to fabricate an OP and respond to that instead of the one I'm presented with" mentality.

[The Straight Story]

35. Same with Jews and synagogues

But we just don't like to talk about there here for some reason.

[oberliner]

57. Or Muslims and mosques

Which we also don't like to talk about here for some reason.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

166. The overwhelmingly vast majority of them are, yes.

Don't confuse "Child abuse is more common among catholic clergy than among some other demographics" with "the fraction of catholic clergy guilty of abusing children is not tiny".

[MichiganVote]

175. "No lie lives forever" Martin Luther King

[shenmue]

11. Thank you.

[xtraxritical]

14. No, and I don't care either.

[Humanist_Activist]

15. I do care, because some of that money goes to harm people I love. n/t

[BainsBane]

25. A good part of it goes to serve the poor

The Catholic Church is the largest private provider of services to the poor in the country, and one doesn't have to be Catholic, religious or attend a service to qualify.

[Humanist_Activist]

27. And that makes up for the evil it does? n/t

[BainsBane]

30. No, it is in addition

I find it astounding how few people on this site care about poverty. No wonder the Democratic Party works to meet the interests of the wealthy when voters themselves don't care about economic justice.

I obviously was not born wealthy enough to cultivate an appropriately bourgeois attitude.

NO parish money goes to the Vatican or Council of Bishops. So what evil you think the OP's former parish is guilty of, I have no idea.

[Humanist_Activist]

34. I don't know, depends on where the parish is located, some of the money could have been sent to...

the local archdiocese where it was used to fight against marriage equality, or anti-discrimination laws in various states recently, or contraception mandates, etc.

[BainsBane]

40. that could be true

and it does vary a great deal, but it's premature to assume it went to evil. I recently saw a list of contributors to the constitutional amendment to make same sex marriage illegal in MN, and there were contributions from a number of smaller dioceses outside the Twin Cities. There were, however, no contributions from St. Paul, the area with by far the largest Catholic population. I expect parishes in more conservative, rural areas tend to be more conservative. In many parts of the country it's hard to find a mass conducted in English. Except for areas of the country with significant Irish and Italian communities, Catholics are overwhelmingly Latino and therefore masses are in Spanish.
The vast majority of Catholics in the world are poor people of color. I think DUers would do well to keep that in mind.

[Humanist_Activist]

51. Basically you are saying that because it helps some people, we should ignore what it does to others?

That's fucked up.

[BainsBane]

55. Not at all

I'm not saying you should ignore anything. Where did I say that? What I argue is that there is a difference between the church hierarchy and fellow Duers, and that there is a good deal of variation between parishes, just as there are among any group of people.

I don't know how people come up with this stuff. It's like you spontaneously get mad, irrespective of anything I've said, and dump it in a post.

[hrmjustin]

71. How is the church supposed to run?

That is why they give money. Most of the collection money goes to cover parish expenses. Some parishes are so poor they can not cover their expenses and the diocese has to help. Most of the churches wealth today comes from real estate holdings and endowments from years past. The collection money is drying up and that is the Bishops fault for keeping the sex crimes quiet. But as i said most of the money goes to parish up keep.

[Humanist_Activist]

75. First off, it depends on the parish and diocese, along with the economic level of the two...

in general, parishes in affluent areas can more than collect what they can in upkeep.

But, its a simple fact that what you say is true, and its a strong incentive to NOT donate to any parishes, it would force the local diocese to fork over money that is better spent fixing roofs than trying to prevent marriage equality, better spent on trying to keep the parishes up rather than to lobbying to ban abortion, etc.

[hrmjustin]

77. Well sometimes in parishes you have a second collection and thatgoes straight to the bishop.

You can always say no to that. They also have drives for social issues outreach and you can say no to that. If a person is serious about what they want to give they should pay attention to the envelopes they are given for the collection plate. Second collections is where they do that.

[Humanist_Activist]

80. I wonder if that's recent or varies by parish...

The parish where I grew up had an open basket, literally a little wicker basket on a stick that you just through cash into, though some people through in envelopes with cheques, etc., it was completely random.

[hrmjustin]

81. If you are an offical member of a parish you can request envelopes so that you can keep track for

your tax returns. My Episcopal parish does the same thing but you have to pledge to get those envelopes. But yes they still have the wicker baskets on a stick to collect things but many people use the envelopes now.

[No Vested Interest]

88. For the past ten years

my family has indicated to the church financial secretary that we want a certain amount taken out of our checking account monthly.

This works extremely well for my family and for the church; i.e., the parish can count on a regular amount to pay its bills, and my family doesn't have to rummage through wallets and purses for the amount we wish to contribute.

I would think many parishes are using this method today.

[Moonwalk]

47. I care a lot about poverty. Having done the research, I know that the best way...

...to reduce poverty is to make sure girls get sex education, young women and young men get birth control/condoms, and young couples get family planning. All of which gives young people a chance to continue their education or get jobs instead of taking care of lots of unplanned children. It gives them a chance, as well, to have only as many children as they can handle and provide for, and keeps a lot of unplanned children out of poverty as well.

Giving out food, clothes, etc. are certainly important as well. But I have a hard time reconciling the church's worry over poverty when, let's face it, in many countries--where it is the dominant theology, influencing the government--it actively contributes to keeping people impoverish by not providing young women with ways to avoid having not just children at a young age, but lots of children--and, likewise, the church doesn't give young men in many of these places a way to avoid having large families they must provide for.

Now none of that may apply to parish churches here in the U.S. BUT let us not forget that the bishops in the U.S. raised a huge stink about having their workers health insurance provide birth control to their workers. It is very difficult to respect the Catholic Church for caring about poverty when it interferes with secular laws that are working to help men and women avoid poverty like health care laws that try to provide birth control, like family planning, like sex education.

And just because people on this site are questioning Catholicism doesn't mean they don't care about poverty. Or are you presuming that those who care about poverty would never criticize Catholics because all Catholics care about the poor? Paul Ryan never seemed to.

[BainsBane]

54. I agree with your views on the church hierarchy

but I have literally had people tell me my priorities were messed up when I mentioned the church's work on poverty.

I happened to go to Catholic school for grades 7-10. I had actually had sex education classes in 7th and 8th grades. The teachers even passed out condoms. The nuns weren't in the room at the time, but they knew it was happening. My grandmother's priest told her contraception was a matter of personal conscience. Other DUers say their priests say the same thing. My eighth grade teacher was a nun who was a gay rights activist in the 70s and 80s, until her early death from cancer. Despite public pronouncements by the Council of Bishops, the everyday experience of Catholics in their parishes can be very different from what people think watching the news.

As for Paul Ryan, you might have seen that his budget was roundly condemned by Catholic groups, from the Nuns on the Bush to even the Council of Bishops. They all condemned it as a fundamentally immoral piece of legislation.

[Humanist_Activist]

58. So when will those good Catholics you mention stop funding the fight against birth control? n/t

[BainsBane]

61. why do you think they are?

Where do you get this stuff? When Catholics contribute, they donate to their local parish. There are separate requests for outreach to the poor and other activities. The money doesn't go from the parish to the council of Bishops or the Vatican or vice versa. They have their own money.

[Humanist_Activist]

62. Except for when the Archdiocese asks for some of that money as well...

You seem to forget that the local diocese have quite a bit of clout, and they do ask for some of the money from parishes, and redistribute it as they see fit.

[BainsBane]

63. I don't know how that works

How do you? What is your source?

[Humanist_Activist]

66. Most of the books are closed, but to give an example of Archdiocese malfeance...

of a financial nature, our Local Archdiocese tried to sell an active parish off to pay for sex abuse lawsuits. The parish had to go to court and prove they held the lease to the land, and not the Archdiocese, for their trouble, the lay board in charge of the parish were excommunicated.

[BainsBane]

70. seriously?

Where is this? What do you mean by sell off a parish? Sell the building?
What assholes.

[Humanist_Activist]

72. Archdiocese of St. Louis...

Though, in fairness, there was a reconciliation, oh, and the Parish was historical, almost a century old if I remember right, or maybe a little older.

[BainsBane]

73. I'm going to Google

If you have a link or more details, I'd appreciate it.

[BainsBane]

74. Is this the one?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/18/us/defiant-st-louis-church-wins-archdiocese-suit.html?_r=0

[Humanist_Activist]

78. Yep, pretty messed up, isn't it?

It was a long time coming, St. Louis Catholics and their Bishops have had, at least lately, a rather contentious relationship. Our previous Archbishop actually resigned from the board of the largest Catholic Children's hospital over them running a fundraiser in Forest Park with Melissa Ethredge(I think that was her name), who is pro-choice. He threatened to resign, the hospital told him to piss up a rope, and then they ran the fundraiser anyways, and it was one of the highest attended open air concerts in the area.

[BainsBane]

79. Totally fucked up

I can see how that would leave a sour taste in your mouth about the church.
Yeah, Melissa Etheridge is pro-choice, a feminist, and a lesbian. She's also a fantastic rock musician. I love her.

[basspro1o1]

134. Pastors are not always as generous, as those that give in the collection baskets!

You may remember the story of Pastor Alois Bell at the Truth in the Word Deliverance Ministries church in St. Louis, leaving a rude remark on an Applebee's receipt, as to her excuse to not Tip her Waitress. Alois Bell, crossed out an 18% gratuity and wrote in "I give God 10%. Why do you get 18?" while identifying herself as a pastor. The amount of the disputed tip was $6.29. As company policy a gratuity of 18% is automatically added for parties of eight or more. Bell's check was part of a party of nearly 20. Chelsea Welch the waitress was fired, due to a friend posting the receipt online.

[progressoid]

98. So the Catholic hierarchy must get their money straight from God then?

[BainsBane]

114. Oh no, they have enormous investments

Last edited Thu Mar 21, 2013, 01:49 PM - Edit history (1)

cultivated through centuries of wielding enormous power. They have their own bank, for heaven's sake. If they relied on their poor contributors--who are indeed overwhelmingly poor and people of color--they'd have nothing.

[progressoid]

118. *snort* Yes - they've been fleecing the flock for centuries.

BTW, since they are not required to, nor do they, release any specific information about their finances, where do you get your facts about their $$?

[BainsBane]

127. my mother

a recovering Catholic. I realize that's not the most authoritative of sources, but she is a well-educated, smart woman. I had a period of about 9 months in my life in the 1990s when I went to mass regularly, and at that time there were separate collections for the church and outreach activities for the poor. My understanding is that money remains with a diocese, which is a collection of parishes in a given area (city, county, etc. .. ). You must have read that a number of diocese are struggling to come up with funds to pay damages to victims of pedophilia. I can't imagine that's a big source of fundraising. Everyone thinks they haven't begun to get what they deserve. I'll be happier when every last one of them is in jail, including people like Cardinal Mahoney of LA who covered up the abuse. Why prosecutors don't apply RICO statues, I don't understand.

I'm sure there is far more information available than I'm aware of, though there is also a great deal of secrecy. There is reportedly a scandal brewing at the Vatican bank. I would not be at all surprised if serous maleficence is uncovered.

I do know from my background in Latin American history that the secular clergy (bishops, archbishops, and ordinary priests) and regular clergy (Mendicant orders like the Jesuits and Franciscans) have different lines of authority and different funding sources. The Jesuits fund their own order, Franciscans, Dominicans, etc. . . and do not get any support from the Vatican. There have been long historical conflicts between regular and secular clergy, the details of which would bore you to tears. Now when a mendicant priest like Bergoglio is appointed as Archbishop and then Pope, he becomes part of the secular clergy. The Pope is obviously supported through Vatican finances.

Tithing was once required in Catholic countries, and the Vatican certainly received some of that as, by the way, did the Spanish and Portuguese Crowns. Donations are entirely voluntary now, and most parishes have little money. Remember the vast majority of Catholics are in Africa and Latin America. Despite the historical wealth and power of the Catholic church, it's theology does not support the accumulation of wealth. Usury remained a sin for centuries. Some historians have pointed to the role of usury in the development of capitalism as a reason for the invention of the concept of purgatory and as part of what underlay the Protestant Reformation. In Latin America, Protestantism is often associated with financial upward mobility, particularly since some denominations assert that one's wealth is a reflection that someone is favored by God. The Catholic doctrine of social justice can be a huge turn off for some concerned with acquiring wealth by exploiting workers and the poor. And then of course others just ignore that part, like most American Catholics ignore the hierarchy's statements on birth control and gay marriage.

Sorry if the history seems like a tangent. Since I'm trained in that field and most of my knowledge of the church comes from history, I always think of these things in historical terms. The fact that the Church is centuries old, I think, makes some of that appropriate.

.

[Bluenorthwest]

108. 65% of the funds Catholic Charities uses comes from Federal Tax revenues, not the Church

I just think that when we the tax payers actually pay for the majority of the work done for those in need by Catholic Charities that it is rather unfair to claim the tax payers don't care about others and to give all credit to an organization that actually pays for a lesser part of those good works. If we pay 65% and the Church 35%, does the credit not go to all of us? Perhaps even to one group more than the other?
And once a year a collection is indeed taken for the support of the Holy See, 28% of that comes from the US. The weekly offerings and tithes do not go toward that, it is voluntary and dedicated. But there is such a collection. Last year that collection was about 18 million from US parishes.
These are just simple facts. People on this site apparently care about poverty 30% more than the RCC, but who's counting?

The amount of Catholic Charities budget that actually comes from the parish in which the services are given is 3%. This is just how it works, it is not some damning bit of information, it is however the fact and just how it works. Most of the budget comes from the Federal Government. From every American.

[backscatter712]

45. And that's the problem.

It seems to me as if lay Catholics think the Vatican, the hierarchy, the homophobia, misogyny, cover-ups of child-molesting priests, Enron-style financial management of church holdings, etc. are all on some other planet where they're not affected.

And what happens? Pro-LGBT and pro-womens'-rights Cathoics put money in the collection plate, and a piece of that money goes upstairs to the hierarchy. Some of that money goes to covering child-molesters, and to anti-gay-marriage campaigns, and to campaigns telling people in 3rd-world-countries to stop using condoms, and to anti-abortion organizations, and so on.

They're not paying attention. And SHOULD.

[liberal_at_heart]

16. thank you for your post and your personal story.

[Ruby the Liberal]

17. (OT) And just where have you been, missy?

Miss you. Made me smile to see your name on the forum list tonight...

[scarletwoman]

24. I've been readin' and contemplatin'.

And then I just got this wild hair up my ass to post something...

[likesmountains 52]

18. To me, it's like the grange here in rural Colorado...

most of the land around the grange hall is not farming or ranching anymore, but the grange hall is a place for the neighbors to meet, potluck, baby shower and celebrate their ties. The original foundation has changed, but it still supports the community and celebrates our connections.

[scarletwoman]

29. That's a very nice comparison.

I think most churches serve a function of social/community cohesion for their members.

[justice1]

19. The problem is when they force their views on everyone else.

Take Congressman Jeff Fortenberry for example, he is Catholic who continues to try pass legislation that allows pharmacists to discriminate against women, by not selling them birth control. That affects the rest of us, and that's why we feel the need to fight back.

[Richardo]

23. I imagine he'd be doing that no matter what religion he was.

Some Catholic politicians are more like Joe Biden.

[ybbor]

20. I also am an ex-Catholic

I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and wouldn't trade that education for anything. I will also defend the faith while I no longer am a fan of the Church. Your post is spot on. I, too, get sick of the original Christians being told that they are not actually just that, Christian. The church I grew up in was quite liberal (70's and 80's) and forward thinking post Vatican 2. It seems to me that the Church has regressed to a more intolerant doctrine, perhaps to try to keep up with the ultra right wing Christian varieties out there.

[scarletwoman]

28. "It seems to me that the Church has regressed to a more intolerant doctrine, perhaps to try...

...to keep up with the ultra right wing Christian varieties out there."

That's how I see it, too.

I grew up in the 50s, Pope Pius XII was still alive within my memory, and then came John XXIII and the Vatican Council. I was already pretty much done with religion by then, but I could still appreciate the whole idea of ecumenicism.

I'm happily a heathen now, but as I said, I will always be grateful for those early years and what I learned. And every few years, I'll go visit the Cathedral to bathe in the glow of the stained glass, and light a candle in the Lady chapel...

sw

[freshwest]

86. I feel that is the gist of it. I remember seeing the nuns and layman standing outside the prison

where people were going to be executed. There was live feed on the ten o'clock news. There were always two groups, the Catholics praying for a stay or their souls.

And the other group jeering at them and screaming for the death of the inmate. They were not family in the crowd, just loud mouths who wanted God to smite that sinner.

It was a sight on the evening news when I was a teen and in my twenties that I never got used to seeing. I was in wonder of the Catholics who were against the death penalty and stood there quietly taking the verbal abuse of the mob on the other side.

I never wanted to be Catholic but they were a mystery to me. Seeing thr, on those hot summer nights impressed me. There was a silent strength in them.

This newer conservative type of thing, the real paleolithic types like the Falwells, Bennetts, etc. - they made people hate each other for money and power.

[Tree-Hugger]

107. Regression

I have noticed a regression in the last decade or so -I they reached out to the evangelical mindset. I have noticed a lot of newer Catholics who are pretty Conservative and Randian. It boggles my mind. I went to Catholic school from 5th to 12th grade and even for a few years of college. I forget the order that ran my grade school, but we learned true Church history - warts and all - early on. My high school was run by Franciscans and it was heavy on social justice. There were definitely some early liberal seeds planted in many young minds by my schools. They did preach against abortion and homosexuality, but not with the hellfire and damnation type speech that I have seen in other churches. It was also rarely emphasized as social justice and service to the poor was a major theme. We were also encouraged to question EVERYTHING - even the Church. So, coming from this background, it is hard for me to see these newer converts who are really just fundamentalist evangelicals who pray the Rosary. It's surreal.

I don't officially attend the Roman Catholic church anymore. I still have my Catholic faith - tempered with some pagan flavor - but I now attend an Apostolic Catholic Church when I feel the need for Mass. They follow the same Mass, sacraments, Nicene creed beliefs, but they allow priests to marry, women to be ordained, they don't consider the Pope infallible and they welcome and accept gays.

[busterbrown]

26. I always thought it was a down payment on an apt. in Heaven... Really!

[davidthegnome]

31. Agreed.

I never went to Catholic school, by the time I was born they were closing the last one in my area. Still, both of my parents and all four of my grandparents went to Catholic schools and received a pretty decent education from them. I also remember as a boy, my Father would hand me a few dollars on Sunday Morning to put in the collection basket as it came around. It was a silly, childish thing, but one of my earliest memories of my Father's generosity and his encouraging of me to be generous.

When I struggled with depression in my early teen years (a struggle that has never really ended) I remember very kindly a Priest who was kind to me, who encouraged, inspired - and gave me hope. I have for years been in love with the novels written by Andrew Greeley, a very liberal Priest who frequently spoke the truth and pissed off bishops and cardinals alike.

While I'm also a former Catholic... there are things about the church, particularly the laity, that I will always admire. The Vatican, the corrupt clergy, the homophobia and misogyny are not things that generally pertain to all Catholics. They are simply too diverse to be lumped in together as if they were all corrupt, guilty, and/or cruel.

The church has rightfully earned a great deal of criticism and even contempt for it's actions both now and throughout history, but the laity... I mean, every individual Catholic, does not deserve to share in that criticism and contempt. If a man kills my dog, do I hold him accountable and take him to task for it... or do I blame his whole family and call them dog killer enablers? It's a simple concept... I don't know why so many don't get it.

[Moonwalk]

59. You do blame the whole family if they knew he was abusing the dog....

...if they didn't report him, get the dog out of his hands, etc. If they simply thought, "It's nothing to do with us..."

Then we would rightly blame the whole family, wouldn't we?

I'm sorry, but I don't quite see how your analogy works. It presumes that the family doesn't know that this man was likely to kill the dog. But those who belong to the Catholic Church certainly know what it's done and is still doing to interfere with gay rights, with women's rights, etc.

Honestly, if you or any other Catholic tell me that Catholicism, it's rituals, etc., are the only way you feel you can get in touch with the divine, and so you must remain with it no matter the sins of its leaders, then that puts an end to the criticism. There is no arguing with what someone feels they need to do that.

If that's not true, however, if you can reach the divine in other ways, then I think the question of why you are part of a faith with leaders who are, on the higher levels, interfering--in this country--with what you, as a progressive morally and ethically value is a valid question. You would ask it of a woman who was very much in favor of abortion yet voted Republican. You would ask it of a Jew who disapproved of what Israel was doing, yet belonged to--and gave money to--a synagogue that sent some of those funds to support Israel.

So why can't the same be asked of Catholics?

[davidthegnome]

95. Perhaps it was a poor analogy

In my own case, the reasons I left are primarily those you pointed out above - but this does not mean that everyone is going to see it the same way. Many Catholics remain with the hope of creating change from within, particularly with the reformation movements. The problem is that the Catholic church is not a democracy. The laity doesn't have the option to vote for their officials, or official policy. Yet individual Catholics also do not generally share the same views as Church leaders. What the Pope in the Vatican, or various Cardinals or Bishops think, tends to be irrelevant to the average church going family. They go for the rituals, for the spiritual communion, the singing, the charitable work that is done by the church. They go (in many instances) for a chance to share time with their friends and families.

The OP explained this better than I am doing, but my point is that most Catholics are disconnected from church leadership. I'm a democrat, but I don't agree with everything the Obama administration does, occasionally the President and democrats in the Congress and Senate make me want to hurl things at the wall. Still, I remain a democrat because I believe in a social safety net, in charity, in liberal social and financial policies. If the leaders of our party support illegal wars, the Patriot Act, illegal wire tapping, illegal drone strikes... and I don't, then should I simply leave the party and join another? What if the next party I join also has leadership that holds to policies I strongly disagree with?

Personally, I'm hoping to create change from within. I left the Catholic church because of their policies, but also because I lost my faith in a higher power, as intellectual honesty forced me to admit I had no clue whether there was a God or not. Yet I still believe in many of the primary principles of the Democratic Party - at least I believe in what I believe them to be... if that makes sense.

It's just not that black and white. Catholics who despise the misogyny of church leaders might remain because they still believe in it's charitable work, because they believe in the idea of helping the poor. Catholics who are furious over the molestation scandals might remain because they don't see it as a reason to quit - rather, as a reason to attempt to reform church leadership, to make sure that the institution cannot continue to do such things.

The laity, as I've said earlier, is far too diverse to be so simply explained. To categorize them all as if their motivations and ambitions were black and white is unfair and inaccurate.

[scarletwoman]

140. Excellent post! Thank you for writing it!

The OP explained this better than I am doing...

To the contrary, you have elucidated my thoughts better than I did!

[Jerry442]

32. So, why not keep all the money collected at the local level and not send any up the hierarchy? nt

[AngryOldDem]

150. It doesn't work that way.

The archdiocese gets a percentage from each of its parishes. The individual parish has no say in the matter.

It's a lot like taxes.

That is why a lot of lay groups are pushing for more financial transparency, especially as it concerns legal expenses.

[Jerry442]

159. At some point someone has to write a check. What if they didn't? NT

[AngryOldDem]

184. The money still needs to be paid.

It's very much like a creditor situation, or a feudal system where the fiefdoms pay tribute to the landowners.

This is why it's very true that some parishes have trouble meeting basic operating expenses. Just like some individuals have to make tough decisions in order to meet the bills they are obligated to pay, so do parishes. Moreover, archdioceses lend money to parishes for improvement projects, etc., and those loans also need to be paid back. Even with so-called "charitable" programs like annual archbishop's fund drives, parishes must meet a certain percentage in donations.

At the end of the day, whether or not people drop checks into the collection baskets isn't the concern of the corporate office (i.e., archdiocese) just like it isn't a concern of the electric company if somebody can't pay their bill because they're short on cash. Both will get their money one way or another. That's why, after a lot of deep thought, I started giving again to my parish. Directly or indirectly the Church has hurt a lot of good people, and I didn't want to see my parish go broke as collateral damage in all this. Just like I don't approve of about 99% of what my taxes pay for, I put up with it for the 1% that does help.

From the outside looking in, Church finances **are** hard to understand, most likely by design. When it comes to money, archdioceses are no more benevolent than any other company. That's why, as I said, laypeople and lay groups are demanding more accountability and transparency.

[maindawg]

36. the grass roots Catholics....

are people who need to follow the tradition out of respect for their family.
No one ever , said , I want to be a Catholic. I cannot understand the phenomena.
But I do appreciate the pageantry. I always watch the pope on easter eve. The pope does one show a year, and as luck would have it, thats like next week or the one after. You get to see the magnificent church at the vatican. you see all these star struck clones and its really intense. its a great show. You have to have a couple glasses of wine, and its late so , that feels naughty too......
I am so amazed at the whole thing. Our entire world hangs on the mythical king of nothing. Thats where I live . I live in the world. I cannot move . I have to stay here......it just blows my mind.

[840high]

39. Thank you.

[ReRe]

41. Hear! Hear!

Scarletwoman, I totally agree with you. I'm a non-practicing Catholic, raised Protestant. I obtained my moral compass from my combined religious education. That compass has steered me away from harm, kept me honest, helped me to think about and aid the less fortunate, ingrained in me the Golden Rule, taught me what the term moderation means, and kept me out of a whole lot of trouble. Basically, it has helped me to be a responsible citizen. I'm a staunch supporter of the separation of Church and State. We have Freedom of Religion and I condemn NO ONE for their beliefs, atheists included. And I can tell you for sure, I have a Guardian Angel that has followed me around all my life.
A few cracked eggs in the basket doesn't make me throw them all away.

[mountain grammy]

42. Good post, I think you are expressing the feelings of many Catholics, practicing or not.

[DrewFlorida]

43. Apparently your local preist didn't fancy you as a sexual target, you're one of the lucky ones!

Yes the criticism of people who drop a few dollars in the collection plate is justified, just as it would be if they dropped it in a KKK collection plate. Donors are responsible for knowing and keeping track of what their money is being used for and what the organization they are a member of is doing, they don't get a blanket of irresponsibility for ignorance. The Catholic Church has been a force for a great deal of evil and great lies throughout many centuries. The Catholic Church does not represent God, it uses God as a means of manipulating and profiting from the masses who in most cases don't have the slightest clue what is in the bible much less what they actually believe versus what they say they believe.

Is a religion who's good book espouses slavery as normal and acceptable really the type of religion someone would expect to be honest and good?

[onehandle]

49. 'one of the lucky ones' You make it seem like like abuse is the rule, not the exception.

I know a fuckload of Catholics, and none of them were ever abused by priests.

I've asked. I especially ask ex-Catholics.

I'm not denying that it happens, but it is Not as common as the press has made it seem.

[DrewFlorida]

56. Oh you think the Catholics you know would just go around telling you they were raped?

The abuse by priests was rampant and actively covered up by the church at every level including the highest level. For every one person who has come forward there are hundreds more who would never come forward because of shame and humiliation. Ignorance is not an excuse covered up by arrogance, you can try to sweep it under the rug by pretending it was a small problem, but it's just one of the dishonest and criminal problems with the Catholic Church, among the others are bank fraud, money laundering for organized crime and many more. But hey just go on pretending that all is well in the Catholic Church, after all, your ok, therefore everyone else must be ok too!

[MellowDem]

46. It's not an "attack" and it's not "absurd"

to criticize people who identify with bigoted organizations, much less give them money. Yes, you're right, I doubt many Catholics think about the bigoted stances their church officially takes and propagates while dropping money into the dish, but that's the problem. The problem is good people rationalizing away their cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty so they don't have to face it. No doubt religious people give money because they like the community the church provides them, they like the social benefits, they like the local charities. And yet, the reality is that they are supporting, validating, and identifying with a bigoted institution. They are making a trade off. They get the personal benefits of community, social functions, family tradition, etc. etc. in exchange for identifying with a supporting a bigoted organization.

The only reason religion seems to get a pass on here is because of tradition. This is the way it's always been, in other words. But people who are members of secular bigoted organizations don't get the same amount of deference. Why is that?

[scarletwoman]

52. I find a great deal of what my government does really quite appalling.

I was born here, however, so here I am, a citizen of an evil power who goes around the planet and kills people at will. I haven't the financial means to pull up stakes and move somewhere else - and where would I go?

I vote, I pay taxes. Obviously I'm supporting murder and imperialism and Banksterism, because that's what my government supports and enables. Perhaps if I were a truly pure and moral person, I would simply kill myself to avoid participating in so much evil.

But, because I actually love this beautiful earth, and because I feel compassion for the beings living on this precious earth, I do what I can to model peace and generosity of spirit.

Maybe that's wrong. Maybe the weight of all the evil my government has done should compel me to completely renounce my involvement in the community of my fellow Americans. How can I, as a moral human being, bear to participate in the slightest way in American society just because I was born into it?

[Humanist_Activist]

60. Taxes are involuntary, governments are necessary, analogy is stupid. n/t

[MellowDem]

67. Let me deconstruct this terrible analogy again...

The US is not a belief system. The US doesn't have catcheisms, and you don't have to believe in anything the government says or any of its laws to be a US citizen. The US is a political body, one which can change its policies and does, and even allows for input from citizens.

You can become a citizen merely by being born in the US, but again, you don't have to be indoctrinated into a certain set of beliefs or proclaim your belief in them to be a US citizen.

If you decide to leave the US because you don't like the government's actions, the process is several magnitudes more involved and tougher than leaving a religion, and no matter where you go, you will be under another government.

Religion is a belief system. To belong to a religion, you have to believe the belief system, otherwise you are engaging in intellectual dishonesty and cognitive dissonance. Catholicism specifically is a belief system that has little to no inpute from its members. It is essentially authoritarian and patriarchal in structure.

The vast majority of people who identify as religious came to that decision through childhood indoctrination. That's because religion requires you to believe in a belief system, unlike the US, in order to be a member.

If you decide to leave religion in the US, there are few financial barriers and many other religions out there to join, with all sorts of beliefs, or you can even choose no religion.

A person who identifies as an American is not identifying with any set of beliefs, because it's not a belief system. A person who identifies with a religion is identifying with a set of beliefs, since religions are belief systems.

So American citizens are not identifying or supporting a belief system, while religious people are. IMHO, considering how much easier it is to leave religion than a country (taking away the voluntary nature of it substantially, unless you are wealthy and privileged), and considering being a member of a country doesn't mean you are identifying with a belief system, the analogy that one is engaging in cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty by being a citizen of a country the same as one is engaging in cognitive dissonance and intellectual dishonesty by being a member of a belief system strike me as a false equivalency and poor analogy. It reflects a deflection argument, since it does not answer the legitimate criticism of saying you're identifying with a bigoted belief system by saying "well, everyone does, see?"

With that sort of logic, criticizing a liberal for belonging to Pro-Life organizations, or a Koch Brothers organization, or the KKK, or ANY sort of bigoted or misogynist organization is off-limits. It's silly.

Religious people have this sense of privilege and entitlement that their religious beliefs are somehow above criticism. That's the way it has been for a long time. But no more. No, you're religious beliefs don't get a pass because the word religion is in them, and your membership in bigoted belief systems doesn't get a pass because it's a religion.

[westerebus]

85. We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are ,,,

created equal and endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights.

And you want to argue this isn't a belief system?

The probability that if you are born into a society that requires a Pledge of Allegiance, recited by school children as they stand facing the Nation's flag at the beginning of their school day, might prompt one to consider the term indoctrination in the secular sense of the word.

Then there's the Naturalization process to become a citizen where one would affirm, swear, and take the oath of citizenship should one desire to join in after completing a rigorous course on citizenship.

Then there was a time when men were conscripted into the military known for its bigotry, yet revered as the cornerstone of the Nation. Even today, many applaud the decision to bring women into combat roles as equalization of the playing field. All the while sexual abuse inside the military is rising and the suicide rate continues to climb among those exposed to combat.

Then there's the full faith and credit of this Nation's People to pay the debt of the Nation's Treasury Bills which as far as I can tell is faith based given the political structure currently in place. Considering the fundamental understanding that there is no debt crisis to begin with despite what the authorities of this Nation would like some to believe.

Cognitive dissonance is not the same as intellectual dishonesty. The ability to hold two or more opposing ideas is fairly common place among a majority of people who are not intellectually dishonest per se. Consider the Congress for example attending a prayer breakfast and voting not to fund women's health care. Not exactly following in the foot steps of their exemplar who instructed 'Love thy neighbor as thyself '. Or those members not attending because some lobbyist has them on a vacation to influence them so the corporations they work for will pay no taxes. A very thin line.

And lastly, by definition a liberal would not belong to the klan.

* if i've mis-spelled something , sorry.

[MellowDem]

125. You don't have to recite the pledge of allegiance...

and you don't have to believe in any of the values of the US to be a citizen. Even affirming and swearing an oath of citizenship has nothing to do with belief. As long as you serve, the US doesn't care what you believe. As long as you follow the laws, the US doesn't care if you don't believe the morality behind them. Belief systems, on the other hand, are quite different. In theory, at least, what you believe matters in belief systems. That's what they're built on.

Religions and political bodies are far too different for any good sort of analogy.

[westerebus]

154. You can simply go through the motions.

It will work for either.

The analogy holds up well when you examine how either functions instead of what they claims to be.

In the Latin: Cui bono? In modern vernacular: who profits?

[MellowDem]

164. You can...

but in the case of religion, if you're found out, you're gone, excommunicated, whatever (if the belief system is consistent). You're no longer a member. If you are found out as a citizen that you don't like certain laws or the moral justifications for them, nothing happens to you. Actually, you can be quite vocal about it.

Both function incredibly differently, and both of their functions are very different. One is meant to create a structure by which to govern society, the other is to expound upon supernatural, objective truths. One has lots of power, the other doesn't. There are a ton of differences.

[westerebus]

173. Excommunication didn't seem to both Henry VIII . He founded the Church of England.

Neither did it both Martin Luther who founded Protest (ant) Religion.

Both rejected the authority of the Pope and both were excommunicated.

In modern terms, excommunication has negligible effect.

The non-violent Civil Rights protests led by MLK in this country resulted in violence by the State.

The non-violent protest at the Chicago Democratic National Convention led to violence by the State.

The non-violent protests in South Africa against apartheid resulted in violence by the State.

The non-violent protest in India led by Gandhi led to violence by the State.

The non-violent protest by Occupy led to violence by the State.

Do you see a pattern here?

As to " the other is to expound upon supernatural, objective truths " I recommend you put that as an Op in the Atheist Agnostic Forum, perhaps they will get you on message if atheism is your preference. The agnostics will be amused, the atheists not so much.

[Zoeisright]

120. THANK you.

And to make religion even worse, it's completely unverifiable because it happens inside someone's head. There is absolutely no physical proof that any supernatural being exists. So the religious think they are completely exempt from criticism and critique. I am fed up to fucking death with religious whiners who defend their disgusting organizations no matter what.

[Warren Stupidity]

167. And I am compelled to pay those taxes for shit I hate and I speak out about the crap

My government does with my money and I do not call those who also speak out about the hideous shit my government does traitors, nor do I think they are insulting me by speaking out against the horrendous shit done by my government.

Your analogy is full of, not fail, but opposite. It is an argument for those here who have spoken out against the RCC on the occasion of the election of another conservative homophobic misogynist pope.

[Tumbulu]

50. What a wonderful post!

Thank you, well said!

[goldent]

64. Well said

[AnotherMcIntosh]

65. Why do they "put money in the collection plate"? Unless the practice is less than universal,

or changed in the last several decades (more than 50 years for me), one factor is that a weekly list is posted to identify the names of those who attended Mass and the amounts that they contributed.

The lists are compiled from the envelopes which are dropped in the collection plates. The envelopes have the names of the persons putting them into the collection plates. People can also just drop money into the collection plates without such envelopes, but the ones that do so are often kids and sometimes strangers who don't care whether their contributions are going to be counted towards their names.

If you regularly attend and don't make contributions in line with what others are contributing, your friends and neighbors will know. A friendly priest might even ask whether you are having financial difficulties and need assistance.

[No Vested Interest]

87. What you are talking about is so 1940's.

You truly date yourself.

[JVS]

93. It's still done. They'll even send you a tax statement each year.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

97. Thanks.

[No Vested Interest]

129. Are you actually claiming that a list of names is posted

of weekly of attendance and what amount is donated by individual parishioners?
In any average parish of 1000+ adults, who has time or the desire to do this?

Indeed, records are kept in the church office of donations so that statements can be given to those who need them for tax purposes, for those filing the long tax forms. Because my spouse and I were questioned a number of years ago by the IRS re our charitable deductions on our tax form, (which we verified with receipts) I have ever since routinely include a list with the income tax form.

The parish would be irresponsible if adequate records were not kept, and government bodies require such.

Also, where there is a parish school which is the beneficiary of a huge amount of the collection proceeds, it is expected that parents attend and contribute as they are able.
(The reality of the parish school saving the taxpayers thousands of dollars per student is a whole other subject which we won't even touch on at this time).

[JVS]

135. no. I'm saying that envelopes are not some relic from 1940.

I've seen them used at non-catholic congregations. I've seen tax statements from churches.

Also, the churches don't have to tabulate statements for each donor, they do so as a courtesy.

[No Vested Interest]

139. Of course not. I replied to the first sentence and subject of the comment re

posting lists of amounts.
What you posted is a given.

No argument there and not worthy of comment.

However, as I posted below, many congregations of all faiths use electronic transfer for donations, including my own, and, although I have not personally seen it in a Catholic church, I believe some other congregations also take donations by credit card.

[JVS]

142. If it involves getting money, most congregations will make it as convenient as humanly possible.

The closest thing I've seen to a complaint was a lutheran pastor who remarked on the very large donations received in december and asked the congregants if they would try to give in a more spread out fashion or at least just communicate with him about making a large donation later so that he could plan the budget better.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

69. Your first paragraph is exactly why people shouldn't donate their money.

Don't contribute to the upkeep, let it deteriorate. And their priest should be forced to get a real job.

[hrmjustin]

76. What most people don't realize about the RCC is that most of it's American wealth

comes from endowments and real estate. Most of the collection plates in the US has seen a large drop in funds, so they church must raid their bank accounts to fund the church on a daily basis. If the church had to go with just what it gets in the plate alone it could not survive. So most of the money collected goes to the local parish upkeep. More than half of the parishes today can not give really anything to the bishop to help pay for dioceasan bills so they have to raid their endowments now. If things keep up the RCC will in the US will not be the richest church anymore.

[Humanist_Activist]

84. More an incentive to starve the beast then, that way at least they won't have money to spare...

for things like fighting equal marriage in multiple states at a time. Its a war of attrition for resources, and they are losing, slowly. We shouldn't lament that, but be encouraged by it.

[Egalitarian Thug]

82. Yes. If there were a God and he read DU, He would be sick of this shit, too.

So, for God's sake, enough already.

[Lint Head]

83. The Vatican is worth 500 billion dollars. They could fund every parish without tithing.

[Kurovski]

89. Religious gatherings will always represent community.

And while I go on like a seething, rampaging satan-monster about religion and its sickness, community is and always will be a sacred thing.

[BrotherIvan]

90. All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

But those potlucks are great!

I understand the idea of wanting to defend community, wanting to enjoy the warmth of friends and family. But feigning ignorance of what you are contributing to and what the power the number of members and their tithing creates is beyond the pale. I've heard so much lately that Catholics don't really believe what the hierarchy believes and doesn't really follow the tenants of the church. Then why haven't they left in droves and started a new church? This isn't a question of what would Jesus do, it's a question of what DID Jesus do. When he looked around and saw that the temple and its leaders had become corrupted, he started a new church. He risked his life to stand up for his beliefs, and didn't mewl and whine about people picking on him. I am usually so tolerant of people's beliefs, but to hear so many of the supporters of one of the most bigoted institutions in the history of the world scream "bigots!" it's just too damn much.

[Sheldon Cooper]

91. When I was younger, our parish priest had a reputation as a real tightwad.

He cajoled and browbeat people into donating, to the extent that he read out the names of each parishioner and their weekly donation at the end of each mass. He scrimped on everything, and never bought anything for the church unless he could pay cash. He built a completely new church in the mid-60s, and did it without incurring debt. That's a pretty remarkable accomplishment by anyone's standards. He was also a shrewd investor, and by the time he died in the late 1980s, the church had well over a quarter-million dollars in their account. When he died, the bishop of the diocese tried to take all that money, but church leaders stood up to him and demanded that it remain in our parish. They won, which surprised me to be honest - my understanding at the time was that the bishop would have had every right to just help himself to the riches.

Anyway, I'm not really sure why I'm posting this, I guess it's just an anecdote about local donations staying within the parish, and not being used to support pedophiles in the Vatican.

[Walk away]

92. That's right. It's the folks who point out the curruption, hatred and bigotry that those dollars...

support are the bad guys! It must be so difficult to be so persecuted when you're so blameless.

[tritsofme]

94. This is what we've devolved to? Leaving money in the collection plate is now controversial?

Incredibly pathetic.

[The Link]

96. At least in part to partially finance relocation of pedophile priests.

[jeff47]

99. So we should excuse them because they don't know where the money goes? (nt)

[Fresh_Start]

100. While I am no longer Catholic, I agree with you

Unlike most people on DU, my family immigrated to the US with one suitcase and the clothes on their back.
They made the choice to leave the country of their births and the country of their residence to come the US.
They made the financial sacrifice to pursue their dreams of a better life.

Like most Catholics, I learned to pray long before I learned to say the pledge of allegiance.
I attended Church and had a religion long before I knew any concept of citizenship.

I would also say that my family is not unusual in leaving their country but keeping their religion.
That is almost uniformly the immigrant experience.
Religion is more than a belief system, its a culture and an identity as you have pointed out in your brilliant OP.

Understand that I have chosen to leave my faith more than 25 years ago, but I still feel connected.
My family is still observant, every family celebration includes acknowledgement of the faith.

While I left over some policies that I could not longer tolerate, I can see that good that the church does as well as the harm that the church does. For many people, the good outweighs the harm.

Over 55% of the US Catholic Church budget is spent on providing healthcare both within the US and abroad.
Another 25%+ is spent on providing education within the US.
There are other charitable efforts supported by the church as well.

I can't ignore the good the church does to condemn it and its practitioners.

[timdog44]

136. Thank you for saying that.

Especially your last sentence.

I am not a catholic, and not a practicing christian. But to condemn a whole lot of people who are genuine in their beliefs is repugnant to me. The church does do a lot of good. The RCC has also shielded atrocities. But you cannot cure a sick situation by letting the patient die. There has to be a better way.

All these so called humanists who are so arrogant, I wonder do they shop at Walmart or Sams Club or any big box store? Do they only buy American made products? Are their underwear made in Thailand or any other sweatshop country? Where and by whom are their computers made? Where does their food come from? Answer all these questions and tell me how many people are killed and abused at these places and what choices you are making to not support these companies.

I think the best thing to do is to band together, heal the patient and don't leave fodder for the right wing to attack the DU members with. Unless of course these people who are so critical come from the right wing.

Seriously pissed off. Tim Smith

[justiceischeap]

103. You cannot deny, however, that some of that money is used in unsavory ways

I was raised Baptist but left the church and religion behind when I could start to reason. For me, organized religion (and faith) makes no sense. I've stated in several threads that as a lesbian, I try very hard not to give money to organizations/businesses that actively work against my equality--almost all churches fit that bill.

When Hawaii first passed marriage equality, it was with the monetary backing of the Catholic church that the Mormon church was able to work towards overturning that law. It was the money of the Catholic church that helped the Mormon church pass an amendment against equality in California (Prop 8).

Where does the Catholic church get this money, if not from donations? Yes, some of those donations go to the upkeep/maintenance/staff of your local parish but it also goes to the Vatican, who uses their vast wealth to spirit away pedophiles to other parishes, that continue to fight marriage equality, that views contraception as something evil and women as subservient beings not worthy of making our own choices.

Progressives often call for coordinated efforts to boycott businesses that openly discriminate... take Chik-fil-a, for example. What makes Chik-fil-a and the Catholic church any different? We ask to boycott Rush Limpball's sponsors because of his hateful rhetoric...what makes the Catholic church any different? Often times, when an organization receives continual financial gain, they see that as tacit approval of their positions...or, at least, that's the way it appears.

[rhett o rick]

105. I appreciate your post. I would be interested in knowing how much of the dollar that goes

into the collection plate actually stays to keep the local church functioning.

This is not intended in any way to be an attack.

[Bradical79]

106. so why do you need the church?

Why does the community need an organization with such a horriblely corrupt hierarchy and murderous history to take part in these charitable activities? That's one of the questions that hasn't been well explained to us non catholics

[Texas Lawyer]

109. I'm a Catholic-church-going atheist. I put money in the collection plate (actually my kids do) for

the same reason I tip.

I attend mass, and the parish is run -- to some degree -- on collections, and so I think it would be wrong (for me) to take advantage of attending mass without participating in the collection.

With that said, there is a special collection for the poor every third Sunday of every month. I give more in that collection than I give in the combined total of all other collections during the month.

[No Vested Interest]

124. You response is almost too reasonable

to be published in this stone-throwing forum.

[Gore1FL]

110. I thought it was guilt and expectation

Those were my motivators when I was a Christian.

[AnneD]

112. I have little love for...

any religious heirachy as it tends to take away from the message as intended. But I give because it makes me a better person and helps me understand in my simple way to become more Christ like: to learn the blessing of giving and sacrifice.

I do not want to make anyone rich-just spread the love and caring.

[Humanist_Activist]

168. How does donating to a group that funds fights against LGBT rights make you a good person?

Yes, some of that money goes to helping the poor, but some goes towards evil things as well, at best its a wash.

[AnneD]

174. I give in kind.....

and materials or labor to my local church and gift the rest. I screen carefully and put much thought to how I give. The best is gifting to those individuals in need (new tires or oil change for a single mom, a large tip to a pregnant waitress, etc). We can all do good works if we look for the opportunity.

[Humanist_Activist]

178. So basically you volunteer time or material to your local parish so they don't have to spend money..

freeing up that money to be used to fight against LGBT freedoms, or for Personhood bills, and that's ok, because you also sometimes help people pay for oil changes, I'm assuming outside the framework of the church. And this makes you "Christ-like"?

[angryjames]

115. Money still goes to Rome

Ask your priest. They send some of their proceeds to Rome. So some of your money goes to protecting child rapist. Some goes to telling Africans that condoms actually causes AIDS. Some goes to pay for extravagant lives for cardinals and the pope. If you can live with that, fine.

[Arugula Latte]

117. Isn't that special. Still, the Church had plenty of money to fight for Prop 8, though.

[Humanist_Activist]

169. Thanks to the kind donations of DU members. n/t

[Zoeisright]

119. Uh huh. Sure.

And where, exactly, did the RCC hierarchy get the money so they live in gold-coated luxury?

What a bunch of fucking bullshit.

[Hekate]

121. Well said.

I'm glad people keep speaking out against the haters. Thanks.

Hekate

[KamaAina]

122. One of the most poignant moments of my life

was when I went to Mass in a working-class section of Chicago -- and heard the sound of coins dropping into the collection plate.

All my life I had grown up in wealthier parishes where the plate was filled with soft folding money, even if it was singles.

[MissMarple]

132. I didn't realize people were doing that. But I don't read Catholic bashing threads.

As a rule.

[YoungDemCA]

138. There is a relatively small but vocal number of people (here and elsewhere)...

...who presume to "know better" than the many millions of Catholics around the world, and who also think that those millions of people are either stupid, foolish, ignorant, brainwashed, or responsible for whatever the RCC hierarchy does.

[liberal_at_heart]

141. luckily I have most of them on ignore by now

[No Vested Interest]

143. I never used Ignore until today

But, in the last week I filled up the 15 spaces on jury blacklist quicker than I would have liked, so have reapportioned and put the worst on Ignore.

[Brickbat]

144. Is the answer "Jesus"?

[harmonicon]

146. No. They put money in, because if they don't, the Big Sky Man will send them...

to the Icky Burning Place FOREVER.

I studied Latin in tax-payer-funded public school in Michigan.

[loyalsister]

147. Are there any DUers who attend mass?

I am curious about the numbers of elderly people who are regular attendees. My 80yr old Catholic grandma would be so incredibly lonely without the social network and emotional support she gets from her church.

[Pendrench]

179. Hi loyalsister - I attend mass...at our church there is a fairly wide mix of elderly, young, etc.

[loyalsister]

183. Thank you

I have friends and family who also attend, but we don't talk about it much because I'm an atheist. I do appreciate that they find support and comfort there among people who share their beliefs. Similar to my fellow Democrats.

[Pendrench]

185. No problem - if you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer the best I can :)

[4 t 4]

148. to make themselves feel better ?

[AngryOldDem]

149. For a long time, I didn't give, out of protest.

True, archdioceses get their cut from the weekly collection, no matter what. That said, parishes depend on collections to make ends meet. I realized I was hurting a lot of good people, some of whom were on the parish staff and were friends, so I started giving again. They in no way condoned the activities of the Corporate Roman Catholic Church, so I wasn't going to punish them.

I no longer consider myself Catholic, but looking back I have no problem with putting money in the plate.

[TomClash]

152. DU has changed in the last few years

Many posters demand an ideological purity on certain issues, few of which concern class struggle or empathy for the poor, the sick or the dispossessed. It is one reason I post here less and lurk more.

[liberal_at_heart]

153. Why is it that the extremes in every group are always the loudest?

I silence them with my magic ignore button. Don't let their loudness overshadow your voice.

[cartach]

158. I've tried extreme rebuttal

and it doesn't work. You can't fight fire with fire with these people and they remind me of Tea-Partiers. The first thing that happens is they complain to management,then they get you in front of a jury and your post is scrubbed. All it takes is a simple majority and you have no means to defend yourself. I use DU as a quick source of news items, as reading the increasing number of discriminatory posts based on no facts and warped,subjective opinions is very frustrating.

[Humanist_Activist]

170. LGBT advocates, pro-choice and pro-contraception activists are extremists now? n/t

[TomClash]

172. Thank you for a very nice post . . .

. . . and good advice!

[MFrohike]

155. What kills me

Most of the posters raging against the church in this thread are pretty clueless about it. It would be funny if it wasn't so pathetically boring. Honestly, I wonder if they realize that collections began a long, steep dive in America following Paul VI's anti-birth control encyclical and have positively nose-dived since the revelation of the rape scandal. American Catholics have been withholding their money from the hierarchy for DECADES and it has not produced a magical swing to the left. If anything, the hierarchy have doubled down on a fundamentalist view of doctrine.

Those posters demanding, yes demanding, that catholics leave the church because the hierarchy is generally incompetent and often morally corrupt are simply clueless. Leave my family because some of my relatives, metaphorically speaking, are idiots? Sure, I'll get right on that. I have to wonder if they apply their logic to their own lives.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

180. You nailed it in your last sentence.

I wonder if those that worship at the altar of logic adhere to the tenets of Logicicism in their daily lives. I have never seen so much egoMANIACal BS in one place. PDF from my perspective.

[quakerboy]

156. Just as a shopper at Walmart isnt thinking

about driving the employees and the community into poverty. They are just thinking about what they want, personally.

People don't think about the consequences of their actions. Glad we cleared that up.

[cartach]

157. Upkeep of their parish church?

All of my education prior to university took place in Catholic schools and I attended church more or less on a regular basis until I reached my teenage years. Since that time approximately 60 years ago I've only been inside a Catholic church for weddings,funerals and other ceremonial functions,all in the same city and in a total of about half a dozen churches. One thing that has struck me through the years that no matter what kind of neighborhood,what size of church,location or size of membership, there has been a significant deterioration in the general upkeep of the buildings and facilities.Some could be considered in slum conditions and others are close to it. So where is the money going? Is it reduced attendance or because the Vatican is taking too big a share as they have always been accused of but even in face of reduced attendance? Whatever the case the conditions are not attractive even in the basic sense and might be contributing to the declining attendance. I would also point out that for many years there has been an increasing number of lay teachers taking the place of the traditional nun in Catholic schools and they are paid a significantly lower wage than teachers in public schools and as they say you only get what you pay for.

[No Vested Interest]

165. RE upkeep of parish church

Don't know where you're located, but my parish church is in a large midwestern city, in a stable area with some affluence though not applicable to all members.
The church is Gothic style, almost 100 yrs old. Necessary repairs have been made over the yrs, and many improvements.
It has been discovered that the slate roof needs repair and the estimated cost will be $1,000,000. (Yes, 1 million - I didn't insert too many zeros.) Apparently the felt lining under the slate has disintegrated completely, after so many yrs.

I'm not sure how this is going to be dealt with, certainly not with weekly contributions. The church had a capital campaign about 10 yrs ago and made both the church and school handicapped-accessible, including an elevator in each, built additions to the school for kindergarten and library use, and modified other facilities for more practical use - restrooms, bridal prep room, meeting hall, etc.

Another capital campaign was being planned to tear down a little used property and replace it with an all-purpose building - gym, banquet hall, etc. In lieu of the the need of the roof repair, those plans are likely on hold, though I'm not closely enough involved to know.
When the huge air conditioning unit needed a repair, parts took weeks to arrive and to install. I can't imagine what the heating and cooling bills must be for the whole facility - church, school, and rectory.

Don't fail to notice that adequate maintenance has not been done on infrastructure throughout the U.S. - bridges, highways, levees, sewer systems, you name it- in recent yrs. Maybe that's the new American way, though it hasn't always been that way, and still isn't in some areas.

[Marrah_G]

196. Do you ever wonder why the vatican doesn't help?

A million dollars is a drop in the bucket for Rome.

[No Vested Interest]

198. Educate yourself

[Marrah_G]

199. great answer

Really...spectacular, informative answer.

[TreasonousBastard]

160. And still they attack the church here without...

understanding that whether or not the Catholic Church, or any religious organization, is a creation of a god, it is run by fallible humans and will make many of the same mistakes that any organization will. in 2,000 years it has made many of them, but the point is to see what they've done about it and where they are going in the future. Of course, some will still complain that they are still going off on the wrong path or not fixing things fast enough.

Perhaps the complainers who refuse to recognize any good in the church are members of perfect organizations with no problems and have good reason to complain?

I mentioned elsewhere Boccaccio's story about a man who visited Rome and saw the worst of the church's behavior but became a Christian anyway. When asked how he could do that after what he saw, he simply replied that if the church could be full of such evil and stupidity and still survive, there must be a God behind it to hold it together.

I have no connection to the Catholic Church since my family left it two generations ago, but I have many connections to Catholics who are doing good work, what we call the Lord's work, in so many areas and are driven to no small extent by their faith.

So, jail the pedophiles, fight them on the sexual issues, but don't ever assume that 1.2 billion people are moved by the simplistic thinking the complainers seem to think they are.

[Humanist_Activist]

171. I'm still counted among those 1.2 billion, and I'm sick of people pulling that number...

Out as if that means anything, all that records is the number of baptized people that are alive today.

[TreasonousBastard]

190. True, but take out those who left and...

it's still a lot of people who are being pigeonholed.

[Humanist_Activist]

192. I doubt half that number are practicing Catholics.

Note, I'm not saying inflated numbers are unique to Catholicism, all religions and religious sects pull the same shit.

[raouldukelives]

162. Half of those clamoring about church donations probably support & invest in Wall St.

Talk about logs in eyeballs. At least someone might get a home for a night out of the donation instead of profiting off someone else losing one for life.

[Deep13]

176. Whatever the subjective intention...

It supports that hierarchy and all they do.

[cap]

177. To Get to the Other Side?

sorry. Bad joke.

[scarletwoman]

181. No need to say "sorry" on my account. Your post made me chuckle.

[corneliamcgillicutty]

182. Love it. Not bad--pretty darn funny--gotta pay to play!

[Phillip McCleod]

195. interesting that the rule against religious posts in GD..

..appears to apply to threads about atheism but not catholicism.

double standard much?

[scarletwoman]

200. My OP was posted last week when the "big news" exception for religion threads in GD was in effect.

Last week, Skinner had an announcement pinned to the top of GD which said the "big news" exception was in effect for threads about I/P, Religion, and Guns.

On Monday (yesterday) it was changed to say "Guns" only, but if you click on the post and click on the edit history, you can see what the post originally said on Wednesday, March 20, which was the same day I posted my OP: http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&address=10022542300&info=1#edits

I had no intention of kicking this thread back up again after last Friday - which was the last time I added a post to this thread - but I see that another DUer added a post to it at 7:57 am this morning - otherwise you probably wouldn't have even seen it if you were simply surfing GD. I regret that posting this reply to you will kick it back up again, but you made the choice to kick it up yourself at 8:03 am by posting your complaint, which then apparently resulted in 3 other Duers also kicking it up with their own posts.

Sorry for the inconvenience,
sw

[TheBlackAdder]

201. Every Protestant Church I've attended Passed The Collection Plate Around Too!

I've been in all kinds of churches and synagogues to attend services in one manner or another.

Except for the synagogues, as far as I remember, every church used a collection plate.

A collection plate is not Catholic only.

===

Now, every Catholic church I've been in passes around two plates.

One for the facility upkeep and one for aid to others outside of the parish.

[scarletwoman]

202. Yes, of course. The only reason I wrote my OP (last week) about Catholics in particular,

was due to the number of posts showing up during the "Big News" exception, religion thread amnesty in the immediate aftermath of the the Papal election, which featured a great deal of broad-brush attacks against all Catholics in general. The gist of these posts being, that anyone who gives any money to the Church is a priori supporting homophobia, pedophilia, the subjugation of all women, and the Spanish Inquistion. You can, in fact, find several examples of that sort of accusation in this very thread.

I merely wanted to point out that there are often far more mundane and less malevolent motivations behind the average Catholic parishoner placing a few bucks in the collection plate at Sunday Mass.

sw