How are you going to fix the Catholic Church? Or any church for that matter?

[Bradical79]

I'm an atheist who has made it known before that I think the best option for those unhappy with the Catholic church leadership is to leave (not a DEMAND to leave like some take it). Community programs can still be handled through secular charity and non-Catholic led community action, and it's not like you get a vote in what goes on in Vatican City.

Of course, I know that this probably isn't a realistic option. My grandfather was fairly liberal for his day, and was excommunicated from the church at one point in his life. I know it was hard for him, and he still considered himself Catholic until the end. Accepting that I was an atheist and permanently cutting ties with my evangelical church was an extremely difficult thing to do that took years to come to grips with. I STILL miss it. There are many wonderful people there despite claims here that all Republicans and conservatives are sociopathic monsters. I know religion is a very powerful thing.

I know some have non-specifically claimed that the Catholic Church can be changed from within, so I'm basically curious what your plan is. Have you organized in any way to liberalize the church? Have there been any successes from your efforts? I'd like to know. Heck, no reason to limit this to Catholics. Has anyone had or witnessed any successes in changing their local or national/global church rather than simply leaving and joining/starting a new already liberal church group?

I'm serious here. If you're not going to leave your group, but are unhappy with how things are at the top, it would be nice to have a game plan or two to deal with it and provide some inspiration for others.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

1. Seriously, to the extent that organized criminal behaviour can be shown to violate the RICO

laws, apply the RICO laws and start confiscating assets.

If the RICO laws don't apply, then no one should be upset by this proposal. They simply wouldn't apply.

Under the RICO laws, it is not a defense to say that the organization otherwise did good things.

[liberal_at_heart]

2. I wish I could find it. There was a fantastic thread started by a Catholic who

had a great idea about Catholics gathering to discuss matters such as these. I think they even mentioned something about councils, but I don't remember. I've been looking through the threads trying to find it.

[vi5]

3. Exactly...

My parents are fairly liberal, devout catholics. They obviously do not in theory support the horrible actions of the church. However, they still continue to show up every week, and continue to drop their checks in the basket every week (in considerable amounts I might add).

And as long as folks like them continue to fill the pews and fill the coffers with money the church will have no incentive to change.

[Laelth]

4. With all due respect, the RCC must change, and its leaders know it.

There are not enough people becoming priests. It's that simple. The RCC will die without radical reform. Lapsed Catholics like myself hope Francis I will institute the necessary changes (pro-contraception, pro-gay people, pro-married priests, pro-women priests) to save the institution. Only time will tell whether our hopes will be fulfilled.

-Laelth

[Bluenorthwest]

5. A lovely hope, but the fact is Francis speaks horrible verbiage against gay people and our rights

not just against marriage equality. To hope that he will become 'pro gay' is not based on any reality, his record could not be more bigoted or atavistic. I think that's what the OP is asking, what can actually be done from within to make change. I support the idea of holding high hopes, as long as that hope is not used to obscure or rationalize the reality.

[Laelth]

6. Assuming you are right ...

And assuming that Francis I can not bring himself to acknowledge the legitimacy, normalcy, and biological fact of homosexuality, I hope that the next Pope, Francis II (I suspect), will be able to make the changes necessary to save the RCC from its own, outdated dogma.

Yes. I hope.

-Laelth

[JVS]

12. Pay attention to how much talk there is about the Global South

If you've been following events in the Anglican communion one trend that has emerged is that African bishops of former British colonies now wield a good deal of power. For example, Nigeria has 18,000,000 Anglicans compared to the US' 2,200,000. These bishops are often very conservative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_South_(Anglican)

When you hear the Vatican talking up the global south it's an indicator that they are going to pay less mind to European and North American wishes.

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Married priests might get the contraception rule changed too

Allowing priests to marry would be the easiest way to increase the numbers of new ones; unlike women priests, they haven't been trying to explain the prohibition on priests marrying as some fundamental part of belief, just the way they want to organise things. They've allowed married Anglican priests to convert and serve as Catholic priests.

But once you have young married priests, they'll be wanting to use contraception - you can be sure the church won't pay them much to support a family. Even if their wife has a decent paying job that could support the whole family, if she is constantly taking time off for births that the church are telling them they can do nothing to avoid, that's a problem. Once the Catholic church has to pay enough to support large families themselves, I think contraception would become acceptable to them.

[vi5]

24. But what I don't get....

...and I never will get, and this is as someone who was raised Catholic, baptized catholic, first communion, confirmation, etc. but who is now an atheist: I get that my parents are Christians. I get that they believe in the teachings of Christ and enjoy the celebration of Christian mass and the sense of community. But there are so many other churches, without the baggage, without the illegality, without the prejudice, without the double standards, but WITH all of the Christ and the charity and the tolerance and the loving ones brother.

So why not go to one of those instead? They can go to mass every week. They can have their sense of community. They can hear and discuss and talk about the bible and the word of God and Christ and all of that.

It's simply this habit and this sense of inertia and not wanting to change (even though the change is for the most part negligible.

The Catholic church is operating on the same game theory as Republicans are: That is, that there is enough of a solid base of people who will follow them and continue to donate and continue to support them no matter what they do or say. So there is absolutely no reason to change and no incentive to change as long as they can keep and maintain and continue to make that bottom line base happy.

[Marrah_G]

21. That describes my parents as well

[hedgehog]

7. When I was a kid, we were taught that the Catholic Church was the only true church and that everyone

going to hell. We were forbidden to enter Protestant churches. If a Catholic married a non-Catholic, the ceremony was held in private in the rectory. Good Friday prayers referred to perfidious Jews.


The came good Pope John.

We are a Church that teaches the Virgin Birth, the Incarnation and the Resurrection. Miracles can happen.

[Laelth]

8. Smile. Nice way of putting it.

If miracles are possible, they are possible in the RCC. Very nicely done.

-Laelth

[Zoeisright]

9. No, miracles do not happen.

It's quite convenient that "miracles" such as walking on water, parting the Red Sea (swamp) etc. stopped happening right around the time that the scientific method started. Miracles are defined as something that happens that cannot be explained by natural or scientific laws.

Your church still wants to classify women and the LGBT community as second class citizens and condemns millions to death by opposing birth control. This is the 21st century. Change, if it comes, is far, far, far too slow and too late.

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Catholic/2002/01/The-Roman-Catholic-Churchs-Official-Teaching-On-Homosexuality.aspx

[Arugula Latte]

11. Zoeisright .. I think you will like this ... just for chuckles:

[hedgehog]

15. I would refer you to the accounts of the miracle of the Loaves and Fishes

A large crowd is out away from town and it's time to eat.

All that is found to feed the crowd are two small fish and five loaves of bread.

Jesus takes the bread, blesses it and tells the Apostles to hand it out.

Everyone eats their fill, and there are 12 baskets of leftovers.

Now -

maybe Jesus performed a miracle of creating something out of nothing, multiplying the fish and bread loaves until there was enough food.

or

maybe the people were inspired and/or shamed into sharing the food they had brought with each other.

Which would be the greater miracle?

[corneliamcgillicutty]

30. "No, miracles do not happen." Sounds like

a statement that would be made by someone who deemed him/her self to be omniscient--god-like if you will. Oh my!

[Bradical79]

33. I'm not seeing the "miracle" you're refering too. -nt

[olddots]

10. this isn't only about the Catholic church

When I became Jewish it took me a few years to hear about how some of the culty sects and some. orthodox Jews were homophobes and chauvinistic dirt bags .I bet all religions have a bunch of high up mucky mucks in a semi secret societal men's club
that makes illegal decisions and carries them out. This is why a congregation is called a flock as in sheep .I evolved into an atheist and hope to never become an orthodox one .Religions and none religious people have to learn to live together and not act like outlaw bikers ,fundis and cults .
I was going to join yes join The Freedom From Religion Society but is that too an organized non religion ?

[Cleita]

13. I had a discussion with a christian church goer (not a Catholic) at the gym

about it yesterday. She's the usual Fox News listener who bitches about paying taxes, but she and her husband are very well off. I talked about the homeless problem not being addressed in our County and how the sequestration was going to make matters worse. She said her church has programs just for that. I asked her if her church was going to be able to step up to the plate and replace the programs that are going to be cut. She said why don't those people get jobs? I said you mean babies who are not going to be able to get formula they need because their parents, who are working, can't afford it?

She didn't know that, but of course because you wouldn't get that on Fox News. I then replied we have to step up as a community to help those less fortunate than us and that means everyone, not just your church or other churches, but us as a community and that takes government and taxes. Churches are supposed to take care of people's spiritual needs. We the people are supposed to take care of the material needs of all citizens and again that requires government and taxes.

At that point she jumped off the treadmill without a word and walked away. My point though was Church is fine if it does what it's supposed to, minister to the spiritual needs of its members. It's up to us the people to perform the works of mercy, that of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked and so on and so on. It doesn't matter if we are atheist, christian, jew, buddhist, scientologists, etc., we need to bond together as community to get those things taking care of and that requires government and taxes that fund social programs.

[RainDog]

17. I agree

What the religious leaders have tried to do with govt. funding of their organizations, is to force people to have to hear their beliefs in order to receive help.

This is fundamentally against the idea in American society that people have the right to their own religious conscience.

But those religions who want to proselytize as part of their faith don't respect this (and I'm not talking about Catholics in this regard, tho I think there are evangelical groups in every group.)

The rulers in Saudi Arabia made a deal with the Wahabbists. That particular virulent version of Islam gets special privileges and, in return, they don't speak against the rulers of the nation, but rather serve to keep people subservient to the POLITICAL leaders.

This, again, is what we see in American churches when they speak from the pulpit about political issues.

[markpkessinger]

27. Another way to put it

While it may be -- and indeed is -- incumbent upon Christian communities to care for the poor, sick, etc., both physically as well as spiritually, that does not, and was never intended to, get the rest of society off the hook for its own ethical and moral obligation to do the same.

[Cleita]

31. I'm not against religious communities doing charity. I dislike them getting

government money for it. For instance government should make sure that every citizen has enough to eat. That was the purpose of the food stamp program before it got eroded. If a church wants to run a soup kitchen, that's okay. But let them ask for donations for it, not government grants. The problem with distributing alms, and that is what church social services are about, is they can't cover everybody who needs such services. If it worked, no one would be with needs and wants for the last two thousand years.

We the people have an obligation to make sure those underclasses who are wanting get at least their basic needs taken care of until they can take care of themselves and we do that collectively, as a community through our taxes, if governments aren't run by sociopaths as seems to be the norm today. Sure church services could help make things better. Years ago when there were actually welfare services for women with children, I went out with a church group that would give the mothers new clothes for their children for school, something welfare checks didn't quite cover.

We have a lot of work to do to get back to a society that looks after everyone, because even if you are doing fine one day, you never know what circumstances are going to happen to put you in the ranks of those who are wanting and you will be happy to know that those services will be there when you need them.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. Same as any effort to change any large organization: grass roots organization from the ground up.

It's got to start with the laity at the parish levels. If your parish has a parish council, use it to the congregation's best interests. If your parish does not yet have a parish council, start one.

Once you have parish councils in place, hold parish "town halls" to get a sense of what the ordinary Catholic congregant wants in terms of change. To all points where there is a reasonable sense of consenus, develop a list of grievances and proposed reforms.

Have different parish councils within a diocese coordinate so that all greivances and proposed reforms be presented to the diocese around the same time. Once they are presented, keep at the diocesian hierarchy until their is a substantive response from them and a stated plan to address all concerns and proposed reforms.

From that point on, grievances that are most common amongst the various dioceses should in turn be presented to the next level of authority--the US Council of Bishops, and beyond that, the Holy See.

One possible ally to the Catholic laity that one might not initially suspect: local parish priests. Many are far more progressive than one might infer, and unlike the hiearchy they aren't so caught up in internal politics that they would be willing to brush certain issues aside. A very specific example might be the issue of ordination of married clergy and women. Parish priests are often quite overworked, especially in the day and age where there is a shortage of priests but not necessarily of congregants. Any effort to bring more priests into the fold may in fact be welcome by some, simply as a matter of practicality.

[MissMarple]

20. +1

[liberal_at_heart]

28. yes you were the one.

I remember reading a post you wrote about doing just that. I was going to post it here but couldn't find it. Thank you for posting this here too. I think you have some great ideas.

[Bradical79]

34. Sounds good, are parish councils common?

And if someone wants to set one up, how would they go about it?

[HereSince1628]

18. Lights will guide it home, and ignite it's bones, and I will try to fix it????

[MissMarple]

19. Organizations and governments all have their ups and downs.

Transparency helps and dividing power helps. Many of the churches and authoritarian governments don't really do that well. The Catholic Church has refined, over a very long time, the keeping and hiding of secrets.

I think they have a pretty good shot at making some substantive changes with this new Pope. That he was elected at all, and so quickly, speaks for itself. The Cardinals know things have to change. They avoided it in selecting Benedict. I believe many of them regret that. I am looking for more transparency and sanctions for the covering up of criminal and unethical behavior.

It could happen. Since we are all subject to human failings, including the Pope, and am confident that Francis is fully aware of this, I think he is not afraid to face the problems. But cleaning things up can be a dirty thankless business. There will be resistance. I have my fingers crossed that he well succeeds. And he will change the Church. That is a given.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. The Episcopalians have made major changes in response to grassroots movements

but then, the governing structure is more democratic, with lay people having a voice, although any major decision requires agreement by both the clergy and laity. It takes a couple of cycles, but eventually, things happen.

In the past 40 years, we've managed to get ordination of women, women bishops (to the extent that our current presiding bishop is a woman), ordination of uncloseted GLBT clergy, and approval of a ceremony for blessing same-sex relationships (in states where legal marriage is not available).

[markpkessinger]

25. Thank you from a fellow Episcopalian!

And you're quite right: the fact that the laity have a voice has been crucial to this process. But as I pointed out in another thread to a Roman Catholic who said he wished to stay behind to be a "force for good," if I were a Roman Catholic, I would certainly be asking myself how much of a "force for good" I could realistically be in a church that gives the laity no voice whatsoever in church governance.

[caraher]

23. The Catholic Church in the US is not monolithic

There are all sorts of groups of Catholics and many of them have long histories of pushing for liberal reforms. Call to Action is just one.

And individual priests and parishes frequently go their own way on a lot of small issues. It wasn't until my family moved to a new, more conservative parish when I was growing up that I learned that girls were not officially yet allowed to be altar servers in our area. Our previous parish had simply ignored the rule. I remember another mass in yet another parish where the priest invited everyone to communion, Catholic or not.

Really, painting Catholics as subservient to Rome only plays into the hands of the conservatives who want to drive liberals out of the church. They want to define Catholicism as their Catholicism, with a strong emphasis on obedience over individual conscience. Yes, the church should indeed be called out for the many ways it is a negative influence in society, and liberal Catholics do need to search their consciences regarding the wisdom of remaining in the Church. But these are matters of the conscience of individuals, just as it is for us Democrats who supported our party in November despite many grave concerns many of us sincerely hold about specific policies party leaders choose to pursue.

[markpkessinger]

29. Be careful about assuming all churches are like the Roman Catholic Church

Christian churches vary widely in their polity and governance, and in their corresponding ability to effect change from the bottom up. Lydia Leftcoast, in message #22 above, mentions the Episcopal Church (of which I am a member). But not only the Episcopal Church has made tremendous strides. So also have the Lutherans (ELCA), Presbyterians, Methodists, United Churches of Christ/Congregationalists and the Disciples of Christ. What these denominations all have in common, apart from being among the churches that were once known as "mainline Protestants" and each of them having roots in one or more of the various 16th C. reform movements against the Roman Catholic Church, is that they all have, to varying degrees, a democratic structure that provides a process by which such change can be effected.

For example, the Episcopal Church is governed by a General Convention and a Presiding Bishop. General Convention consists of two legislative houses: the House of Bishops and the House of Clerical and Lay Deputies. (Hmmm...a presiding executive and a bicameral legislature -- sound familiar?) Each diocese is represented in the House of Deputies by four clergy and four lay deputies, who are elected at conventions of each respective diocesan convention (at which there are representatives of each local parish). Diocesan bishops, too, are elected by the dioceses they serve. All of this is very, very different from the structure of the Roman Catholic Church, even though, in many outward appearances, the two bodies appear to be similar in some respects.

[Bradical79]

32. Yes, I'm aware that not all churches are like the Roman Catholic Church

I didn't mean to imply that. I was looking more for churches that are specifically conservative (or were conservative) and undemocratic in structure, which I should have specified.

[quaker bill]

35. It takes alot of work over many years

but it can be done.

[DirkGently]

36. How are you going to change the country? Got a plan? Huhdoyadoya?

C'mon. Don't mean to slam, but there's a species of bad argument that pretends that anyone selecting the wrong answer must solve some vast problem immediately or admit defeat. A recent example is the suggestion no one can criticize authoritarian measures in the U.S. unless they "have a plan to stop terrorism."

You see the bad faith there, right? Authoritarian measures themselves don't cure terrorism.

Just like atheism doesn't cure, say, bigotry or child abuse. In fact, we know for certain some people use their religious faith as a reason to do good, even if their holy books are not factually true, their organizations are corrupt, and segments of their membership take despicable political views.

Organizations can and do follow their membership. I've seen people try to float a fallacy where a church cannot change because its dogma is rigid, whether declared by Popes or simply written in an ancient book.

Yet now we have various denominations pushing for female clergy. Dropping various bits and pieces of ignorant dogma.

Religion is culture. Only fundamentalists claim there is just one view, one rule, one theology. So you change it the way you change anything else. You speak up. You teach your children. You support the good and condemn the bad.

It's not that mysterious, really.