Congratulations on Your New Gun Laws

[marions ghost]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/24/1196080/-Congratulations-on-your-new-gun-laws

So let's see what we got. That new legislation...

Forbids anyone from asking gun dealers to keep an inventory of their goods, making it impossible to know if any weapons are missing or stolen
Instructs the ATF to be very sure that no one can use their information on the use of guns in crimes, to draw any conclusions about... the use of guns in crimes
Locks down a broad definition of the types of weapons that are considered antiques and collectables, making it easier to buy, sell, and import these weapons and their ammunition
Forbids the ATF from pulling a gun license from a dealer just because they don't see any legitimate business activity and suspect that the dealer is engaged in a criminal enterprise

Criminals? Protected! Ingnorance? Upheld! Congratulations, America. Done and done.
If that's not quite what you had in mind, come inside. Let's talk.

(snip)

At the very least, we do learn something about the gun industry from these provisions. We learn that the thing they care most about, the item at the top of their shopping list, is the same as it's been for years -- ignorance. No matter how many speeches, flyers, and magazine articles the NRA funds to tell people that guns are valuable for family protection, no matter how many times they protest that guns stop more crimes than they start, the top priority of the gun lobby is making sure that no one can really find out the truth about their product. They don't want you to know how their guns are sold or how dangerous they are to have around the house. They want a clean page on which to scribble their fairy tales of guns as saviors; a fantasy only possible if the public is kept in a deep well of ignorance. For the same reason, the NRA works hard to push legislation that keeps doctors from asking their patients about one of the biggest health threats -- whether or not they have guns in their homes. If someone is willing to spend millions lobbying to prevent research, it's because they have something to hide.

The importance that the gun lobby places on keeping America in the dark also gives us a clue about the best way to fight them: keep talking. Keep talking to your congressmen and senators to let them know you are not going to forget and stop worrying about this issue if we manage to squeak out a week without a massacre. Keep pointing up those studies that do manage to take place, which invariably show that guns in the home are a threat to both children and adults, and that those states with sensible gun regulations have lower levels of gun violence. Spread the word on Kagro X's terrific #gunfail effort on Twitter, where he demonstrates the fallacy behind claims that guns are safe in the hands of "experts."

Talk about it. Blog about it. Email about it. Protest, call, and shout about it. Do the one thing that Congress has singularly failed to do -- be brave enough to stand up for what's right, even when it's not convenient.

[AndyA]

1. This says it all to me.

The NRA does not permit guns in its headquarters. This seems to go against everything the NRA says. Licensed visitors cannot carry their gun into the NRA building. Why is that?

The Supreme Court protects itself by banning weapons in their place of work, but the rest of America is supposed to just deal with it. Such hypocrisy, from both the NRA and the SCOTUS.

[marions ghost]

2. I didn't know that

the NRA bans weapons in their headquarters. Figures. That's just to keep the riff raff out. But how many of the executrons are concealed carrying anyway?

Yeah this is a good article. We have to face what we're up against. Nothing rational, nothing sane, nothing reasonable will EVER be allowed. We are their pawns. We are their victims.

The writer says don't stop talking about it, no matter what. Get in their faces just as much as they do us. Wear them down. Be relentless. Our side gets disgusted and gives up and goes silent. So we go on being held hostage, with all the anger and resentment suppressed. We can't afford to do that this time. We just can't.


Gotta do something with the anger. Keep putting it back in their direction.

[sylvi]

12. What's rational, sane and reasonable

about revoking someone's business license simply because they're not doing that activity for an arbitrary amount of time?

[marions ghost]

13. You know there are shady gun businesses dontcha?

Anyone with good practices is fine.

[sylvi]

14. You know there's such a thing as due process dontcha?

Yanking someone's license because they don't use it for a while or because you suspect them of something isn't part of it.

"Forbids the ATF from pulling a gun license from a dealer just because they don't see any legitimate business activity and suspect that the dealer is engaged in a criminal enterprise

[marions ghost]

15. Good grief

I guess you're a gun seller fearing that your license is gonna be yanked.

Yes due process would apply. So I'm not too worried about any unfairness.

Send your objection to the NRA --I am sure they're listening...

[sylvi]

18. Apparently, the legislators are listening

since they made the law that prevented yanking the license without due process, and rightly so.

The Constitution can be such an impediment sometimes, can't it? After all, "it's just a goddam piece of paper".

[marions ghost]

19. I don't know about this

but if it gets you down off the ceiling, great. Don't be so hostile about this. All gonna work out for you.

[DevonRex]

23. And some ATF Inspector has to drive to the middle of nowhere to inspect a guy who sells 1 gun

gun in 2 years WHY??? And you call that a legitimate business? Meanwhile, that Inspector could have driven 20 miles the other way, and found a REAL dealer whose books were so messed up (purposely) that there's no telling who bought firearms from him. And that dealer could be the one who's been getting a lot of weapons into the wrong hands.

All that first guy wants is to buy a gun or two cheaply for himself, he sells 1 gun every 2 years, wastes the Federal government's (and taxpayers') money by hanging onto that license and making ATF inspect him as IF he actually has a business. And he keeps ATF tied up on fucking penny ante bullshit when they could be making this a safer place for all of us to live.

A business has a premises. A STORE. It has actual HOURS. It has CUSTOMERS. It SELLS STUFF. It has INVENTORY. It keeps RECORDS. If an inspector goes there to the STORE during the HOURS it will be OPEN. And there will be SALES and RECORDS to inspect and INVENTORY to count and compare to what should be there according to the RECORDS.

This isn't a goddamned Avon business. All the fucking NRA did with this is ensure ATF will miss something big because they have to go see the cheapskates who get FFLs just to buy guns for themselves at wholesale prices instead of to run a legitimate business.

[sylvi]

24. Is there any other license you'd like to see revoked

because the holder isn't actively engaged in operating under it at the time? Many health care professionals keep their licenses active their entire lives after retirement without lifting a finger to do the actual practice. How about the person with a driver's license who hasn't been behind the wheel in years? Why does it chap your ass so much that someone gets a firearms dealer's license so they can save money? And spare me about the poor, poor ATF agent driving "20 miles". Have there been any complaints about that from BATFE? Maybe they could transfer some TSA agents over to them for help if they can take a break from checking baby's diapers for explosives.

Of all the shit in this country to complain about you're going to rag on some schlub trying to save a buck on his or her hobby? If ATF has suspicions about someone, then investigate them, gather the evidence and bring the charges. That's how it works. Find another way to harrass innocent people.

[DevonRex]

26. You bet I will rag on that schmuck because it puts Americans in danger because he's a cheapskate

with a stupid little hobby that happens to cost the REST OF US MONEY and could get people KILLED if ATF Inspectors have to spend all their time on these ASSHOLES with their silly HOBBIES instead of doing their actual jobs. which isn't going to see some goddamned Numbskull who wants to save $20 on a motherfucking rifle.

[sylvi]

27. But they're NOT "having to spend all their TIME...

...on these ASSHOLES with their silly HOBBIES instead of doing their actual jobs." Show me where the ATF has DEMONSTRATED this to be a PROBLEM.

Am I GETTING the all-caps THING down right for EMPHASIS?

[DevonRex]

30. If they have a license they have to be inspected, genius. Unannounced

whenever possible. If they are all allowed to keep their licenses, even though it specifically says FFLs are not for hobbies and are not just for purchasing for yourself - but for actually having a business - then ATF is required to inspect. That means travel time and money - time and money that could and should be spent elsewhere. Take a look at the Wyoming map. Do you know where the office is that covers Wyoming? You won't find it in Wyoming. It's in Denver, Colorado. Do you know how many cowboys and sheep farmers and bartenders and oil workers in Wyoming think it's a great idea to get an FFL so they can save $20 on a rifle and don't have to drive into town from their middle of nowhere town that's so small it's not on any map? They all whine about taxes and big brother, too. Yet there they are, spending govt money and bringing the govt right into their homes, because of course there IS no store, no inventory, no records, and they probably can't even find their damned FFL since they only used it that one time.

And you should have been able to figure this out for yourself. This ain't rocket science.

[sylvi]

31. An FFL costs $200

so no one is laying that out and jumping through all the hoops to get a license in order to save "$20 on a rifle". You could do that at Wal-Mart. How many FFL holders get the license, make a purchase for themselves, then never use it again, never sell a gun, never act as a transferring agent for another buyer? And please, don't give me the "spending money" shit. The government regulates and inspects all kinds of hobby and recreational industry standards and licenses that I and probably you don't use, yet I'll bet you don't get up on a soapbox over that kind of spending. Only because this is about one of your pet peeves, Teh Evil Gun™, are you getting so exercised over it.

[marions ghost]

32. Adios

[DevonRex]

35. Genius, something should have made you wonder how I know so much...

There's a very good reason that I know so much and speak with conviction, without hesitation. I had enough of conversations like this quite a while back. And the good thing is, on DU I don't have to act like you're making any sense when you're not.

[sylvi]

48. I haven't seen any indication that you do "know so much".

Perhaps you left the evidence on another board somewhere, or in your other pants, I dunno. And everyone else can understand what I'm saying just fine, so I'm left to wonder if the inability to make sense of it is willful ignorance or congenital.

[pintobean]

3. Where did you get that information about the NRA HQ?

While trying to verify that, I found that they have a shooting range in their headquarters basement, and it's open to the public.

This link goes to the page about it on their web site.

[AndyA]

4. It was discussed recently here on DU

I also recall reading about it a few years back, perhaps from a Brady Center press release. There was also a discussion about it on Daily Kos at one point.

The NRA also wouldn't allow guns at its press announcement regarding Newtown, and that was covered on the news.

[aikoaiko]

11. The press conference was in DC proper where no one can carry.

I'm still looking for verification on no carry in NRA headquarters in VA.


But then again, the NRA has always supported private property owners to decide for themselves about allowing people to carry on their property.

[JaneyVee]

5. Their shooting range has a separate entrance. Only staff is allowed to carry, not visitors.

Security is unarmed.

[marions ghost]

6. Cold & clinical

[ileus]

7. Very nice range, we should all be so lucky.

[marions ghost]

10. This looks more fun

[Hoyt]

28. Typical diverse group of folks practicing to shoot people.

[marions ghost]

37. Just good old fashioned fun

for the water cooler gang.

I guess bowling is out but this seems even more strange.

Kickboxing would be more to the point.

[oneshooter]

8. So what did you think it would look like?

[marions ghost]

9. Something a little more fun than voting booths?

or toilet stalls...where you go and do your own little thang, doncha know. Not very social. But there are those glass partitions so I guess you can wave to the guy next door. Where's the VIP lounge and the cocktail waitresses?

I bet NRA worshippers make pilgrimages to this place just to say they been there, done that.

[sylvi]

16. Well, they tried

Well, they tried combining a shooting range with a steel rollercoaster, but the cartridges kept falling out of the patrons' pockets on the corkscrews.

[marions ghost]

17. Yeah we had one of those around here

they had mini-golf too...

[sir pball]

20. Damn, that's a good idea..

Would make a great tactical training range, shooting on the move!

[Blue_Tires]

47. Well that's just negligence on the patrons' part then...

[MattBaggins]

33. Holy shit, They're buddy booths

[marions ghost]

34. shhhhh

[Lurks Often]

21. Antique Firearms as currently defined by the ATF

"For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Antique Firearms” means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-antique-firearm.html

[marions ghost]

22. OK so

did you want to make a point or just giving a definition?

[Lurks Often]

36. Both

Given the definition, not sure why everybody is so bothered that Congress disallowed ATF from making further changes to what constitutes an antique weapon

[marions ghost]

38. I don't know much about this but

to hazard a guess, maybe if all guns are more controlled (rather than the Guns Galore situation we have now)--then those who can't qualify but need one to kill someone would find an easy market in antique weapons which can still do the job? I think I read they are used in some murders.

If you have another idea, bring it.

[Lurks Often]

39. A very simple idea

enforce all the laws already out there.

[marions ghost]

40. They ain't workin'...

and they ain't been workin' and there's no political will to make em work.

That is all just hot air unless you are willing to institute new provisions that MAKE laws more effective. (You can say that in lots of other arenas, not just this one). The gun laws have no teeth & so they have to be given teeth.

No change = no change.

[Lurks Often]

41. They are not being enforced

if they were being enforced explain to me how 2 different people in CT, one who stole some 12 weapons and another who stole 31, were allowed a plea bargain that saw them see NO prison time and end up being sentenced to time served and probation.

Under Federal law a straw purchase is supposed to be 10 years and a $250,000 fine. Too bad that's not normally being enforced either.

[marions ghost]

42. Not enforced = not working

You won't suddenly start enforcing things that are not working without some expert analysis, renewed political will, and new provisions.

For one thing, the prisons are overloaded with drug cases and poverty. And the states vary so much on all the issues that it undermines the effectiveness of anything.

You see inequities in cases of other kinds everywhere. Indicates a need for new ideas, new legislation. Requires a fix, not just some kind of lazy "enforce em" hot air (more do-nothing NRA rhetoric).

The proof is--they aren't working, ain't been workin, need fixing. It's time.

[Lurks Often]

44. So there are plenty of laws on the books

that unfortunately are not being enforced and you want to pass more laws that won't get enforced?

I find you shockingly naive.

And it's a moot point, at most you'll get out increased penalties for straw buying and universal background checks out of Congress.

[marions ghost]

45. That's how it works (when the legal system does work)

"I find you shockingly naive" --LOL, you and Mz Palin--ya got all the brains, darn
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/18/sarah-palin-obama-energy-_n_1434103.html

Sarah Palin Attacks Obama's 'Terrifyingly Naive' Assault On Energy Production

-----------------

To answer your question: "there are plenty of laws on the books that unfortunately are not being enforced and you want to pass more laws that won't get enforced?"

OK thinking thinking--hard for me, naive ya know.... OK--Duh--NOW I SEE!!!!!!!!!!

You don't believe any laws will be enforced. (Well, we are close to societal breakdown). So if you don't believe that any laws will be enforced, why are you in here trying to argue against changing the laws? Hey--Fugettabout it. If you're not worried about any laws being enforced at any time...guess you better be gettin back to preppin...

"Moot point"--yeah I know, the NRA always wins....I know, I know...blah blah

[apocalypsehow]

25. This:

"The importance that the gun lobby places on keeping America in the dark also gives us a clue about the best way to fight them: keep talking."

From the NRA to the full-scale gun lobby to our own "pro gun progressives"* who peddle the NRA line here non-stop, 24-7, I've found nothing terrifies or sends them into rage so quickly as exposing their ugly little agenda, and continuing to talk about issues raised in the gun debate: they dislike such talk, and fall back on talking points gleaned straight from the NRA at every opportunity. That's what these pro-NRA right-wingers do: spew memes and talking points; obfuscate; shift goalposts; personally attack. They know no other way of discussing the gun issue. And they could give one hot-diggety-damn about the victims of gun violence in America.

They. Just. Don't. Care.


*( )

[marions ghost]

29. Ditto, absolutely

Keep talking ... like it's a job, a vigil, to stay awake, to keep people awake. Don't fall asleep in the Poppy Field
Keep talking
Keep talking

...Because we're supposed to be silent and passive. We're supposed to roll over & play dead. Go back to the darkness.

Anyone who spouts the NRA talking points is complicit. The victims are the furthest things from their minds, that's for sure.

The more we arm ourselves out of fear, the more America has failed.

[99Forever]

43. Not just yes, but hell yes.

The fucking terrorist bastards at the NRA need to be stopped and the insane fetishism of these vile and deadly machines of evil need to be purged from our society.

Fuck the NRA and all of it's members and enablers.

[marions ghost]

46. NRA needs to be stopped