French back a ban on religious symbols at work

[The Straight Story]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by SidDithers (a host of the General Discussion forum).

French back a ban on religious symbols at work

Public opinion has already taken shape in France’s new secularism debate, with two new polls revealing the vast majority of French people would ban religious symbols, in particular the Islamic veil, from all workplaces.

In recent days a new front has been opened up in the age-old debate about secularism in France - namely the wearing of the Islamic veil and other religious symbols in the workplace.

Two opinion polls published in recent days reveal the French are very much in favour of introducing a ban.

A whopping majority - 84% - of the French people now oppose the wearing of the Islamic veil or headscarf in private workplaces frequented by members of the public, according to a poll published on Sunday by regional daily Ouest-France.

http://www.thelocal.fr/page/view/veil-polls-ban-religious-symbols-french#.UVBKEzei2So

[dipsydoodle]

1. So that would include crosses ?

That would be a bit odd for France.

[The Straight Story]

2. Yep:

Since 2004, it has been illegal to wear or display conspicuous religious garments or symbols – such as crucifixes, Islamic headscarfs, or Jewish Kippah's – in France’s state schools, but government ministers have suggested in recent days that the law could soon be adapted to apply even to private workplaces.

[cap]

7. Especially crosses

Crosses have been banned for a long time in public schools and other public buildings France precisely to limit the influence of the catholic church.

France is the birthplace of the enlightenment. Think Voltaire.

[cali]

18. Yeah, so fucking enlightened that hundreds of thousands march against

marriage equality again this weekend. This is anti-Islamic dog shit.

[el_bryanto]

20. Thank you for pointing that out

If your religion requires you to wear a veil and they outlaw wearing veils what are your options? Abandon your faith or stop working?

Bryant

[Quantess]

23. But does it?

I know a muslim woman who goes around in western attire (uncovered hair). She is from Iran, and she says she is muslim.

I really don't know the answer to this question, but I doubt it is as simple as a blanket-requirement straight out of the Quran.

[el_bryanto]

24. People live their religion in different ways - but one can assume that some who wears the veil

may well believe that it is religious required. At least she feels that God wants her to wear the veil.

Bryant

[Silent3]

3. Can such a ban hold up under EU scrunity?

I don't know the details, but I'd think that the EU Human Rights charter would cover something like this.

I'm an atheist, no big fan of religion at all, but this is going too far. Although religion on the whole has lost much of its grip on France, I don't think a ban on religious symbols would have a popularity as high as 84% without it mostly being powered by rabid anti-Islamic sentiment. I suspect the French wouldn't try to hide crosses if only crosses were involved, but they'll ditch the crosses if that's what it takes to get rid of the veils at the same time.

[Mass]

5. Really? The laws concerning secularism in France are more than 100 year old.

and Christians have been the first ones to go after them.

[Silent3]

6. This is a lot more than secularism

Enforcing bans on religious symbols in private workplaces goes well beyond government taking a neutral stance toward religion.

[Mass]

10. Well, I do not want to work in a place with an obstentatious religious symbol.

I dont care whether it is Christian, Jewish, or Islamic. It would be a big no, no. And I suspect it would be the same for most French people.

But you probably have lived long in France and understand France? Or are you just reacting as if the world should behave like the United States.

[Silent3]

14. I haven't lived in Egypt, but I think forced female circumcism is terrible.

Do I have to have lived in France to have a valid opinion on this? To stand up for a principle of individual liberty that I think should be universal?

I don't like ostentatious religious symbols either. But fuck what I like. Other people's right to self expression is more important than me always being comfortable about what they express.

[ZombieHorde]

28. Well said. nt

[cali]

56. What constitutes an ostentatious religious symbol in your mind?

Is it any article that indicates what religion the wearer belongs to?

[Union Scribe]

64. Kinda down on individual freedoms eh?

lol.

[RedstDem]

4. Less religion is usually a good thing

no public displays is a good overall. after all your faith should be a private thing, advertising seems to go against religion in my mind.

[Silent3]

8. I think less religion is a good thing too, but people being forced by law...

...to hide outward signs of their religion? That doesn't strike you as a bit overbearing?

[The Straight Story]

9. Wonder how this would affect someone with a cross tattooed on the hand for example? (nt)

[Mass]

13. I dont know. I have not been in France for 4 years,

so things may have changed, but 4 years ago, it was not exactly something you would see in France.

People do not wear their religion on their sleeve, as they do here. They consider it a private thing, and therefore have probably no objection against the law that would be proposed.

[Mass]

11. Well, as a French person, the overuse of Christian symbols in this country bothers me.

I find it overbearing and sometimes bullying against people who are not Christian.

[The Straight Story]

19. Ok, serious question here

I read a lot of older books from the 1800's mostly (free on archive.org) - I love old travel journals to places all over the world.

Amazing the stuff you find in them, how people traveled back then, stories of mermaids, no phones or cars, etc and so on.

Some of my favorite are about the middle east and Africa in general.

It was not uncommon that people were in areas where other faiths (most writers were Christians that I have read) were very dominant.

All sorts of symbols, customs, celebrations, etc were based on these other faiths.

But I don't recall anyone feeling bullied by such things, in fact such things were often celebrated and so intertwined in the culture that the authors went into great detail about them (and I can imagine living back in the 1800's reading of such exciting journeys, like the nat geo of the time).

People bullying others over their beliefs (religion/philosophy/politics) I can see and get. But not sure of the whole symbolism thing.

It is one reason I could care less if I see a Menorah or Christmas display at a school or courthouse, etc - it is reflective of the culture and history of the people of that area (and I think such should be all inclusive in the US).

Could you explain to me, so that I can better grasp, how the symbols seem like bullying? And yes, I can get how a noose or a swastika can be seen as such - but then their sole purpose is based around intimidation whereas while faiths may have some terrible items to account for, a large swath of people practicing them are not intending to be threatening in a similar way and use them to celebrate both their culture and history.

[daleo]

25. Well, gays could feel bullied by religious symbols

Since adherents of religions usually consider them abhorrent, and their religious texts generally say gays should be executed.

Religious texts also say adherents of other faiths are wrong, and are therefore enemies of the one true faith, so they all ought to feel bullied by each other.

Pretty well all consider atheists and agnostics to be "fools" at best, evil at worst, so atheists and agnostics ought to feel bullied by religious symbols.

Women are often considered to have a lesser status than men in religions, so they ought to feel bullied, doubly so since they will belong to one of the above groups.

The only reason most of us don't feel threatened by religions is that we know the vast majority of adherents ignore their own teaching on these matters.

[The Straight Story]

31. Well, understood - but

If one of those people travel to a country that is say, mostly practices Islam like Egypt, to see the Nile and other things they will see many symbols of the predominant faith (and probably others).

Would such a person avoid going there to avoid seeing ancient history because of the symbols they will see around?

I get the oppression engaged in by faiths against others sucks ass and makes people leery, but am talking about how the symbols themselves impact a person.

We see churches all the time here, etc., which are symbols of a religion - how do people react driving past one? If you see a cross around someone's neck does it instantly bring up a fear that the person is going to harm them?

I loved your last line - it was spot on. And I hate fundies with a passion. And yes, the word hate may be strong but it is honest.

But I also love history and know that much of history focuses on the few who did the bad and not the many who did good -- examples of catholic priests helping out many over the world while their church leaders screwed over many are out there but no one talks about them because the ideals they hold.

I can see a lot of positive, but sometimes we have to look for it - and we can call out the negative as well.

When I was a kid growing up we heard a lot of bad about black people in this hood as well as gays. So our opinions were tainted by only hearing such (mine not so much because mom was a liberal and told me to treat others equal, but still for years I held certain ugly prejudices because most of what I heard was from people I respected at the time).

We can talk all day about the bad from religions, but I spend a lot of time reading small town papers (from usnpl.com) and time after time I see the churches helping the poor, homeless, sick, elderly, etc out. Every damn day.

If we focus on one, and not the other, we get biased - and maybe people want to hate something which is why such discussions get so many replies. Point out the good and people counter with 'yeah, but' (as I did in the title of this reply basically).

Jesus said it well - Seek and ye shall find. I would hope we would all seek the whole truth and not just the good or the bad.

[idwiyo]

12. I don't display any atheist related symbols and I definitely don't want to see any religious ones

around me. Specifically at work.

Building shouldn't be exempt either.

[octothorpe]

27. I'm not a religious person, but crosses/hijabs/star of davids/etc don't bother me at all.

What exactly about them bother you? I'd get the issue if someone came in with a burqa, or if their scarfs/chains/whatever got in the way of their work.

[idwiyo]

30. Keep your beliefs or lack of thereof to yourself. Pure and simple.

[octothorpe]

32. I wouldn't allow my lack of belief dictate what others can or cannot wear

unless they preaching or talking about their religion constantly, I don't see how that harms anyone. Maybe you can explain how someone wearing a cross or a hijab personally affects you.

[idwiyo]

33. Displaying religious symbols openly is no different than preaching, IMNSHO.

What's so difficult to understand? Your beliefs are your private affair, kept it private please.

[The Straight Story]

42. Often the symbols are for the believer. And what about Tattoos of such symbols? (nt)

[idwiyo]

49. Keep your religious symbols private. That's not much to ask, is it? Or are we going to start

screaming Oppression and War On Religion (tm) (R)?

Please spare me. I don't walk around with Atheist tattooed on my forhead or any other clearly visible parts of my body, don't display anything at my workplace, don't bring the subject up unless forced to do so by religious people who just can't keep their religious beliefs to themselves.

All I ask that they reciprocate in kind.

[The Straight Story]

51. Ah,the oppression thing

I am not the one claiming a symbol is oppressing me.

Not a muslim or a sikh but if I see them wearing things that are symbols of their faith I don't feel bullied into converting.

Banning stuff is something religions themselves used to be good at and people didn't like it (rightly so).

And what if you work at a church? Then what???

I don't fear their books, their symbols, etc - I do fear some of their leaders and rabid fundies.

[idwiyo]

54. Where did I say that I feel oppressed? I did ask though to keep your private stuff private. That's

not the same, is it? Never mind of course that wearing head covering for instance does force other members of the same religion to conform. It becomes a norm, instead of choice. Not that it ever was a choice for overwhelming majority of women. Wear damn cross, otherwise someone MIGHT think you are not a believer. Wear darn turban because for sure you are not good enough Sikh if you don't wear one.

Shit like that does bother me. And until such a day when all negative connotations attributed to various religions are well forgotten, please keep your symbols private. Not much to ask.

[cali]

59. bwahahaha. so well thought out, hon.

"private stuff"? just what the fuck is private stuff? Do tell. How about sexual orientation? Should people keep that hidden? Political views? What other oppression do you want to perpetrate on others?


Why do you hate the first amendment?

[marions ghost]

67. Symbols are not preaching

they are identification, solidarity with their group.

Peace symbols may not be liked by some. "Obama" buttons are disliked by some. Gay flags are disliked by some.

Where does it end if you don't allow self expression in dress or personal space? No public schools, no public places--only in one's dress, workspace, desk, house, car--private spaces.

Gotta allow it somewhere. Does not hurt others.

[Shivering Jemmy]

58. But a symbol is only a symbol

If it is meant as such. A long black dress. Can be part of hijab. Or it can be a fashion statement.

What if I just want to wear a veil because I like it?

[99Forever]

15. Imagine

"~~~Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace~~~"

John Lennon

[treestar]

16. Crazy

Do they think people are going to fight because they see what someone else's religion is?

Freedom of speech and religion are implicated here. Isn't France a modern democracy?

[Mass]

17. So, you support prayer in school?

[treestar]

21. They are talking about work, not school

I agree public institutions should not have religion in them, because of freedom of religion - and the state can't favor any particular religion.

[cali]

22. Private work places are not the equivalent of public schools.

This is anti-Islamic crap.

Clearly if you wish to wear a cross you can cover it up. Not so with a head scarf.

[daleo]

26. Because nobody has ever fought or killed over religion.

[treestar]

60. Not at work

i don't know about your office. And it is not the 14th century any more.

[sadbear]

29. As long as it's applied to all religions, fairly, evenly, and consistently, I fully support it.

No loopholes or exceptions!

[cali]

36. How can it possibly be? You can tuck a cross beneath a shirt

how can you hide a a head covering?

[sadbear]

37. If you can effectively hide it, as in not display it, I don't care.

Yeah, unfortunately, some religions have a hard time not displaying themselves. Tough. They'd better adapt.

[cali]

44. blatantly biased. Nothing but ugly dog shit bigotry on display

That's all this is. And it's largely anti-Islamic. So a Muslim charity, for example, would be forced to ensure that none of its employees wore a head scarf. Sick.

[sadbear]

46. If it affects Christians, Jews, Hidus, Sikhs, Buddhits, etc., too

then I have no problem with it. Period.

Yeah, as long as the bias is evenly applied, I'm absolutely fine with it.

[cali]

50. Did you even read the fucking op?

It couldn't be clearer that this is anti-Islam bigotry. duh.

And as I said, it can't be applied fairly.

[sadbear]

53. Of course it is.

I never said it wasn't.
And I have no problem with it as long as it treats the other religions the same. And it can despite YOU saying it can't.

[idwiyo]

41. Use a scarf, a hat, whatever. Just don't make it a religious statement. Not that difficult and I am

sure your deity of choice will forgive you. After all every darn single one of them is all forgiving, no?

[The Straight Story]

47. In my religion all hats are religious symbols

And all clothes

[idwiyo]

52. Great for you, that gives you a lot of freedom to chose from. Don't see you having a problem

from satisfying your religious requirements (or lack of them) privately. As it should be.

[cali]

48. why do so many people make dim assumptions based on... nothing?

I have no fucking deity- except maybe the god of profanity. So much for your assumption, poppet.

[av8r1998]

34. I find...

The BANNING of religion as abhorrent as the FORCING of religion.
ANY religion.

[idwiyo]

43. Hysterical much? Where does it say anything about "BANNING" religion?

[cali]

45. That is no hysterical. Of course it's a banning of religion when

you outlaw the wearing of religious attire in a private workplace. And it's total overreach on the part of gov't.

[idwiyo]

55. I work for private company and I do not want to see religious symbols. Keep them private, please.

[cali]

57. do you work in the U.S.?

If so, tough

I could a fat crap if someone where I work wear's a cross or a yarmulke or a head scarf. I care much more about private employers being able to discriminate against women (e.g. birth control coverage) on religious grounds.

[11 Bravo]

61. BINGO! If some easily offended poster would like to revoke a portion ...

of the First Amendment because they "don't want to see" something; the only acceptable response is, "Tough fucking shit. Deal with it."

[octothorpe]

66. Wait what? fat crap? lol... what does that mean?

*edit*

Oh wait, I think you might have meant 'couldn't give a fat crap'.... Dammit, I thought I came across a new saying I've never heard of before.

[LittleBlue]

35. The French are extremely paranoid of other cultures

They have this notion that France is some culturally pure country, and that any small threat should be dealt with. Lacking any sort of right to free speech or expression, lawmakers can run roughshod over personal freedoms. IE women dragged into police vans because they're wearing burqas.

[Nye Bevan]

38. No yarmulkes allowed? Highly anti-Semitic, surely (nt)

[riderinthestorm]

62. Muslims are approximately 12% of the total French population

With a whopping 84% of the country supporting this proposed ban, more than a few Muslims must also be supportive.

Its not logical that the entire French Muslim population (12%) are included in the 16% that don't support the ban since Christians (crosses) and Jews (yarmulkes and star of david jewelry) and Sikhs (headgear) must also be part of that 16%. Self identified Christians alone are something like 45% of the population and presumably make up the majority of the 16% that oppose this.

So if French Muslims aren't seeing this as problematic (which my first reaction is that this is blatantly targeting them), I'm going to theorize that France's historic emphasis on public secularity is really the issue here.

Maintaining that secularity has always been a big deal since the Revolution.

Really interesting.

[Apophis]

63. I wish we did that here.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

65. "Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."

Denis Diderot

The French really do take religion seriously.

[marions ghost]

68. Don't like this as law

So how does wearing a veil hurt others? (As much as I am against the veil and all that it symbolizes).

As long as your symbol is on your body, on your clothing, in your private space (includes a desk or office at work), your house, your car--I see nothing wrong with this form of expression. Obviously if a symbol is greatly offensive to others, eg. some (permanently retired) inflammatory symbol such as a swastika, it would upset others and not be a great seller in the job interview.

Personally I don't mind knowing what others identify with and I wouldn't want that restriction placed on me. I don't like homogenization, where people feel bad about their affiliations. It does not offend me to see a symbol of someone else's religion as long as it doesn't encroach on my (or public) space.

I think this law could backfire.

[SidDithers]

69. Locking...

The exemption for Religion threads in GD has expired, and Hosts are of the opinion that this thread is now outside of the SOP for GD.

Please consider reposting in Religion.

The new Interfaith group was also suggested as a place where continuation of the interesting discussion could take place.

Thanks,
Sid