Pit bull/Pit bull mixes kill toddler.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/toddler-dies-ga-mauled-dogs-18826973#.UVS9ChwU_Nk

We have cattle. For years we had none herding dogs such as Airedale Terriers. These happy-go-lucky terriers were useless around cattle, in fact they would scatter them with their exuberant barking.

Then we bought the Australian Shepherd pup. Her training was the same as the terriers, the basic commands, but at six months she was taking and bringing the entire herd to and from pasture. She knew how to keep the cattle in a group and would bark or nip the hocks of stragglers. It was really something to watch.

Dogs have been bred for generations for specific purposes. I couldn't, if I tried, turn our little herding dog into a killer of toddlers. A Pit Bull would never, at 6 months (or any age) have natural instincts to gently and successfully herd cattle. Don't always blame the owners of dogs, bred for generations to fight, when they act as they were bred to do. The owners are at fault for allowing children near these dogs.

[Liberal_in_LA]

1. sad. Adults lost track of the child.

[99Forever]

2. You are, of course correct..

... just be prepared for the onslaught headed your way from the "Nanny Dog" crowd, they aren't too firmly grounded in reality.

[Floyd_Gondolli]

73. Oh for Christ's sake

Pit bulls don't appeal to me but there are plenty of loons on BOTH sides of this particular debate. Lately it's been the anti pit bull moonbats who seem to be winning.

[99Forever]

75. Oh FFS.

What the fuck is a "anti pit bull moonbats" and a "Christ?" Got any real world evidence that either exists?

[Floyd_Gondolli]

76. Plenty of evidence on DU

That the moonbats exist ON BOTH SIDES of the issue. Just do a search. I presume you have the ability to do that. Read through the threads. It's actually fairly simple.

As for God, I'll concede that point.

[99Forever]

78. No sale.

Saying there is evidence isn't evidence.

Only actual evidence is evidence. (As in, if you had it, you would have posted it.)

Do your own damn homework.

[Floyd_Gondolli]

79. Or perhaps

You're just too lazy to look for it. Or, more likely, you're deeply invested emotionally in one side of the issue and don't want to look for it.

At any rate, this is the sound of me not giving a flying fuck about what you think. Toodle-do

[99Forever]

82. Or perhaps...

... I'm smart enough to know a bullshit artist trying to send me down the rabbit hole when I see one.

Do your own damn homework.

[Cali_Democrat]

3. Poor little thing.

[Auggie]

4. This quote -- "Why they (the dogs) got started I have no idea" -- is the one

that frightens me the most.

Why?

[yellerpup]

80. Dogs pack.

The more dogs you have, the more likely this sort of 'wilding' will take place. Even non-aggressive dogs will follow the leader if their instincts are aroused. I've told this story before on DU and been showered by rotten tomatoes, but I once had a pair of championship pit bulls and their two pups who went off on a neighbor as his guests were leaving his house (1 block from ours) and if my neighbor hadn't used his wooden leg to good effect several people would have been chewed. My pit bulls were hand raised, never subjected to physical punishment, and treated like babies. When they revert to their pack state, there is no holding them back. Certainly not with commands and not even likely with force. That baby was no more than a hilarious toy to those dogs.

[markpkessinger]

96. Spot on

Dogs in groups can often behave in ways that are very different from the way they behave with their owners, or with others in their "pack" (which includes the owner and his or her family).

[yellerpup]

100. Once you've witnessed that behavior--

you can't deny that every person and every animal met by the pack is in danger of being dismembered. My neighbor's wooden leg wasn't the only thing that saved his guests. My pack ravaged and killed his wonderful, aged German Shepherd that night. Horrifying.

[Demo_Chris]

5. The terrifying thing about Pit Bulls are the owners who insist they are just another doggie n/t

[Boudica the Lyoness]

7. I love dogs

but, in my opinion, dogs that have been bred to be aggressive should be kept under tight control.

Years ago when this breed was developed for its purpose, breeders selected the most aggressive dogs to breed from and also they selected dogs with powerful jaws for gripping and tearing their victims. These instincts stay in the dogs for generations to come. Probably forever. My little herding dog's parents were not working dogs, just pets, yet she knows cows.

[Demo_Chris]

10. I absolutely love dogs...

And spent most of my adult life training them as a hobby. Most of this time I owned aggressive breeds, including two GSDs (one of which I bought in Germany), a rare Arctic Wolf / GSD mix (a very unusual dog), and others. I have also owned and worked with other breeds. I absolutely LOVE dogs, I get them, and they seem to love me.

I don't have a problem with aggressive dogs, but I very much have a problem with owners who apparently do not understand that there is a HUGE difference between breeds. Every time someone says otherwise they PROVE to me that they have absolutely no business owning one of these dogs. It's the difference between a BB gun and a machine gun, and if you don't understand it buy a damned Lab or Retriever.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

13. I admire the aggressive breeds.

They have a purpose in this world. As for WOLVES!! I love them ...even though we have cattle, lol.

[Demo_Chris]

19. I like most breeds outsied the little mini-dogs

The wolf was really interesting. I had expected her to be a handful and far more aggressive than, say, a GSD. Not a bit of it. She was extremely docile, even with other animals. However, as I discovered to my somewhat horror when she was attacked by a neighbor's dog, once she got going -- unlike other dogs I have owned -- she did not stop. In this case it was a neighbor's male Husky that got loose and came into our front yard (where I had her chilling on a chain -- no fence yet). The Husky out-weighted her by a significant amount, and she absolutely demolished it. Had it not been for the chain she would have killed it on the spot. I am not going to detail what she did to it, but it was horrific.

She was interesting in other ways as well. There was the howling of course -- she liked to sing along quietly with music and other sounds, or with you -- that was one of her favorite games. We lived on a ranch at the time and spend a lot of time out camping, and whenever we were somewhere she could hunt her own food she did that rather than eating the dog food we put out for her. Watching her hunt was amazing, she basically just ate non-stop. She'd trot along at your side and every ten or twenty feed she'd stick her nose in a bush and come out with something -- lizards, mice, whatever. She'd do it so fast she wouldn't even break stride with you. And if you weren't paying attention you'd miss the meal going down.

When we were on the ranch some nights I let her sleep outside (she usually slept with me) and one morning I woke up to find that she had somehow managed to kill a migrating Goose. She was so proud of that she carried that wing around with her for a week. The wing must have been three feet long.

But the weirdest thing, and I have never seen another animal do this...

One time a national geo program was on the TV about Arctic Wolves. She sat in front of the Television the entire time, stairing at the TV and wailing along with the wolves on the program. It was uncanny and a bit sad. I've never seen anything like that before. She was actually watching the program.

[baldguy]

20. No, no you don't. And given these statements, you certainly have no understanding of dogs.

[Demo_Chris]

30. Okay :)

[stopwastingmymoney]

22. I'm always surprised when people say GSDs are an aggressive breed

I'm on my second one now and both have been wonderful with children, gentle and protective.

Don't get me wrong, anyone that tried to hurt me would find my dog to be ferocious, but I think that's something else. Defense rather than offense, if you understand my meaning.

As someone with your experience, do you feel they are an aggressive breed?

[Demo_Chris]

29. No, and yes. I will elaborate

The word "aggressive"" (though I used it) is an over simplification.

Allow me to take a step back. Dogs are pack animals, some breeds are more dominant and aggressive in terms of how they test their position within that pack. This is, in my opinion, a major problem that people have with their Pit Bulls, and it is the reason why an animal that the owner sees as being a gentle loving bundle of cuddles can go from that to violent in seconds. The reality is this: it wasn't in seconds, it happened over weeks or months or years and the owner never noticed.

You HAVE to notice.

A dog like this needs a job to do and it needs a firm hand. Not a VIOLENT hand -- you don't need to hit the dog -- but a firm consistent hand. By this I mean you must ALWAYS be in control of that dog. If you tell the dog to do something and it balks you have to react. If, for example, you call it and it doesn't come you have to stop what you are doing and go get the dog immediately. Not call it again, get it. And this applies to everything you do. A dog like this will test you, and you have to remain in charge of you have problems. It CANNOT safely be stuck in the back yard or anywhere else and ignored. You have to work with it.

The smartest and toughest dog I have ever worked with was the GSD I bought in Germany. Both of its parents were champions in the german version of police trials. This dog was brilliant. I spent 3 hours a day, every day without fail, working with that dog, training her to compete. She was breathtakingly brilliant and an amazing performer in front of other people, she LOVED performing in front of people... but not a day went by when that dog didn't test me.

Every day. Seriously without fail. She loved me, but she tested me. In her case, spotting it was easy because it was sooo bloody obvious. For example, this was a dog that was trained to respod to hand signals at a distance, but if she decided to see what I would do, she might watch for the command to do whatever -- perhaps sit -- and she would instead stick her nose in the air and turn her back to you. She'd make a show of telling you to fuck off. She knew what she was supposed to do, and she loved doing it, but testing was her nature as a dog. (Note that she never screwed around when people were watching -- she was too proud for that. That was her nature too.)

(For the record, I eventually found the perfect way to deal with it. Every time she pulled a stunt like this I would treat her like a puppy and too stupid to understand what she was doing wrong. I'd baby talk her and we would go back to her first most basic training. This is how you sit puppy, aren't you such a smart little puppy... It was humiliating and She HATED it.)

But every breed like this will do the same, they are all watching your every move and thinking. And if they begin to feel like you aren't really in control, if they begin to question your position, you have a problem brewing. If you let it go on long enough and things are just wrong someone is going to get hurt.

Back to GSDs. They are a powerful dog bred to protect. Consider what this means: they were bred to be willing to attack anything or anyone to protect their family, and they can have a tendency to OVER protect -- this is a recognized tendency in the breed that you should be on guard for. Of course they are wonderful with children, that's their job. That's what they were bred to do. They would rather die than see your kid (or you) hurt. Seriously, and think about how amazing that is. That's how much it loves you. But that level of -- call it fanaticism -- comes at a cost. You have to be in charge all the time, you have to give it a job if possible, you have to give it excercise and something to excercise it's brain. You don't have to be perfect, and I don't advise people not to own these dogs, just understand what it is you own and do your best. Your best is good enough.

I guess, to make a long story short, it comes down to this. Even today, with dogs that I can read like a book and that I love like they are my own children, I am CONSTANTLY watching them and reading them and I never forget what they are. And this is why I am appalled any time I read a post from some Pit Bull (or similar) owner refusing to acknowlege the reality of the breed. When I read a comment from someone saying that a Pit Bull is no different than a Border Collie, I cringe a bit. It's just a complete denial of reality-- like denying evolution or teaching your kids the earth is only 6000 years old -- except if you do this with a dangerous animal it is entirely possible that someone will eventually get hurt or killed. And then the dog will get the blame.

This is really a silly over simplification, but there is it. My opinion based on a lot of years with puppies and a lot of books I read as a young man.

[stopwastingmymoney]

32. I understand what you're saying

I'm an interested student of dog behavior too, I am the Alpha!

I like the trick about basic training when they are defiant, I think I'll try that next time I need to.

Thank you for the good reply.

[Demo_Chris]

33. I'm glad it made sense, some things are hard to explain n/t

[OwnedByCats]

45. While I love pit bulls and I stick up for them

I do recognize that not just anyone should own one. As a matter of fact, probably MOST people should not. I would never advise a novice to run out and get a pit bull, just as I wouldn't advise them to get other breeds that are also not for the new dog owner. You have to know what you're doing with any dog, but with certain breeds, they need to know more and have more experience than the average. I believe that if someone knows what they are doing, most of those folks won't have serious problems and I know a lot of those people. A few minor ones perhaps, each dog has it's own idiosyncrasies and personality and you can't predict what those will be when they are puppies. The huge problem is, the people who have no business owning a goldfish much less a pit bull, have them. Every single time a person who shouldn't have a pit bull doesn't usually end well. Either that dog will either end up in a shelter, euthanized and in some cases, it ends with someone getting bitten, mauled or killed. I hear proof every day when a pit bull ends up being rescued from a horrible situation that some people should not have them. It's difficult for me to blame the breed entirely when the vast majority of responsible (this is key) owners don't run into the same problems as those crappy pet owners who don't know what they are doing.

[Marrah_G]

67. This is an absolutely excellent post

Our malamute is like your GSD. Training is constant and consistent.

People who own these types of dogs have to get educated about the breed and trained in how to own them.

When someone gets bit because you treated your dog like your child, you are the one responsible. They are dogs and need to be treated like dogs.

[ariesgem]

77. My GSD Theo is in his teenage years (1 year, 4 months old) and is testing me at every opportunity

He was a gift to me as a small pup from my good friend. He was good with following his commands until recently and my trainer said he's going through an adolescent phase to where it is crucial to enforce what he was taught. He is a sweet, loyal dog with an incredible drive but I know what he or any other GSD could be capable of if he's left unchecked, untrained or not socialized.

Your post was spot-on.

Here's my dog in his "watchdog" mode posing with my friend -

[Demo_Chris]

109. What a beautiful dog! nt

[backwoodsbob]

39. raised an arctic from a puppy till he had to be put down

When he was about a year old he quit eating and the vet said he was a pack dog and needed a companion so we got him a female german Shepperd companion.

Same size dogs...same basic build....you couldn't have two more diverse personalities in a dog.The shepperd was a guard dog by instinct who was lovable and her companions best friend.The arctic...major...was a hunter.He would stalk any animal who was unfortunate enough to get within his space

dogs DO act instinctively and I'm sorry but pit's and the offshoot Pit breeds are killers...end of story.

There have been too many stories where a Pit's owner said the dog was a sweet baby right up to the moment it maimed or killed someone

[Demo_Chris]

41. In many respects the entire "debate" is ludicrous

As I said in a previous post, it's like the people who deny evolution or any other basic observable and documented fact. And the same people who assert that there is no difference between, say, a Golden Retriever and a Rott -- they're both just doggies dontcha know -- don't have the slightest problem accepting the difference between a border collie and a poodle when it comes to herding animals. Apparently genetics works when it comes to one type of working dog, but not the other.

That said, I am not bothered by the existence of these animals. I am bothered by the owners in denial. A Pit owner who said, "Yeah, they're dangerous. That's why I do the following things..." would earn no complaint from me.

This discussion is not confined to this site though. For a while I posted on a very active dog forum, and if you think it's bad here you wouldn't believe the crap some of them posted there. Forget debating whether or not a breed was dangerous, there were quite a few there who believed that disciplining and controlling your dog at all was bordering on cruelty -- apparently this stiffled their spirit or some such nonsense. People who owned dogs would often register to ask questions, and the advise from this faction was downright chilling. A question might be "My Doberman is growling at me and wont let me sleep on my bed!" And these fools would advise the pet owner to sleep on the couch.

I used to go there to discuss training, and there were some amazing people that posted there, but I finally just gave it up.

[OwnedByCats]

44. Amen n/t

[get the red out]

84. excellent post

People need to have the type of dog they can deal with in their particular circumstances.

[get the red out]

83. Instincts

We took our Border Collie Mix for a herding instinct test just to see how she would do and she positively lit up and turned on in the presence of sheep. We adopted her from the shelter when she was a puppy and she is a city dog. The instincts bred into dogs amaze me.

I agree that people need to be more conscious of what we have bred dogs to do, much of which is good, all of which can be misused, and some is just bad. Sugar-coating the instincts of some types of dogs isn't helpful.

[DrDan]

15. exactly right - how many are now going to post about their "sweet little angels"

"would never hurt anyone . . . so sweet"

simply in denial

[JoeBlowToo]

59. Horror as rescue dog kills and dismembers two-month-old baby while his father slept

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2132912/Horror-family-dog-kills-dismembers-month-old-baby-father-slept.html

[DrDan]

60. not sure what your point is . . . this is very tragic

[JoeBlowToo]

61. Point is, dogs are dogs...

and should not be trusted alone with small children who look like prey to them. I love dogs and work with them but they sometimes revert to their wild origins. No matter what breed.

[DrDan]

62. that's true - but some seem to inflict more injury than others . . . right?

statistics seem to support that - if you can get by the breed-supporter spin.

[baldguy]

63. Cows and horses kill more people each year than dogs.

Want to ban them too?

[DrDan]

64. cow attacks? horse attacks? there may be a difference

[baldguy]

65. You obviously don't have any compassion for the innocent victims of the equine & bovine scurge.

[DrDan]

66. plenty of compassion - even for innocent canine victims

[snooper2]

69. when is the last time you saw a fucking cow eat a baby?

[JoeBlowToo]

70. Usually they fuck after dinner...

and a bottle of Chardonnay.

[snooper2]

71. in that context I was using fuck as an adjective not a verb

The word with a million uses LOL

[baldguy]

85. Well, it all depends on how you raise them. Doesn't it?

Which is sort of the point.

http://tinyurl.com/3c6qem

[snooper2]

86. The difference is if a cow snaps you can deal with it...

Or if a beagle snaps you can kick it across the room...


When a pit snaps you better be prepared to shove your fist down it's throat-

[baldguy]

87. You think beagles aren't dangerous?

Beagle Attacks Pit Bull, Owner
http://www.whiotv.com/news/news/beagle-attacks-pit-bull-owner/nFPNQ/

Beagles kill small dog at dog daycare facility
http://www.examiner.com/article/beagles-kill-small-dog-at-dog-daycare-facility

Woman saves her pit bull mix from beagle attack
http://celiasue.com/2010/12/23/pit-bull-mix-attacked-by-beagle/

All dog breeds can bite, and beagles are bred for hunting. You do know what "hunting" is, and what's involved, don't you?

[snooper2]

89. I grew up country...and no beagles aren't dangerous but our english mastiff was

your google search of articles has me though



As noted I can field goal kick a beagle over my house- Little bit tougher if one of these dogs is coming at you-

[FreeState]

88. Not true at all (links)

http://bookofodds.com/Accidents-Death/Accidental-Deaths/Articles/A0252-Behind-the-Numbers-Death-by-Cow

If we take a longer view, 309 deaths in which cattle were listed as the primary cause were reported between 1992 and 2007. (Motor vehicle-related cattle deaths, such as hitting a cow with an ATV or truck, don’t count.) Dividing the total number of deaths by the 16 years of data yields the Labor Department’s 19.3 deaths per year.

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/dog-bite-statistics/dog-bite-statistics.html

Dog bite losses exceed $1 billion per year. In the past several years, there have been 30 to 35 fatal dog attacks in the USA annually. Each year, more than 350,000 dog bite victims are seen in emergency rooms, and approximately 850,000 victims receive some form of medical attention. Based on data collected in the USA between 2001 and 2003, the CDC concluded that there were 4.5 million dog bite victims per year, but that figure appears to be rising.

I can not find any statistics on horses killing people (I can find statistics on people killed from falls off of horse, about 100 a year, but thats not an attack as in the above two quotes).

[baldguy]

90. It doesn't matter how many people were *actually* killed, only that they were involved in some way.

The "logic" of the dog-hating, pro-BSL crowd is that if any Pit Bull (or cow) has any connection with any death anywhere in the world, then every otherPit Bull (or cow) should be punished for it, preferably by being put to death. Or at least muzzled & kept away from people.

They're very big on wanting to see innocent animals suffer for their supposed crimes.

And the website you linked to - dogsbite.com - is notoriously inaccurate, and extremely biased against dogs in general, and Pit Bulls in particular. It's "statistics" are compiled mostly from news reports, which usually describe anything with four legs and a tail that bites a person as a "pit bull".

[FreeState]

92. Well then dogs outweigh them all

look up dog bites - I was just looking at fatalities by attacks. Way to move the goal posts.

http://www.americanhumane.org/animals/stop-animal-abuse/fact-sheets/dog-bites.html

An estimated 4.7 million dog bites occur in the U.S. each year.

Hows the CDC - you like their stats better?

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/images/dogbreeds-a.pdf

Results—During 1997 and 1998, at least 27 people died of dog bite attacks (18 in 1997 and 9 in 1998). At least 25 breeds of dogs have been involved in 238 human DBRF during the past 20 years. Pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers were involved in more than half of these deaths. Of 227 reports with relevant data, 55 (24%) human deaths involved unrestrained dogs off their owners’ property, 133 (58%) involved unrestrained dogs on their owners’ property, 38 (17%) involved restrained dogs on their owners’ property, and 1 (< 1%) involved a restrained dog off its owner’s property.

Conclusions—Although fatal attacks on humans appear to be a breed-specific problem (pit bull-type dogs and Rottweilers), other breeds may bite and cause fatalities at higher rates. Because of difficulties inherent in determining a dog’s breed with certainty, enforcement of breed-specific ordinances raises con- stitutional and practical issues. Fatal attacks represent a small proportion of dog bite injuries to humans and, therefore, should not be the primary factor driving public policy concerning dangerous dogs. Many practi- cal alternatives to breed-specific ordinances exist and hold promise for prevention of dog bites. (J Am Vet Med Assoc 2000;217:836–840)

[baldguy]

93. Then you must want to get rid of all the dogs, everywhere.

This report has been repeatedly debunked on several past threads on DU, most recently less than a week ago. Maybe you should check that out before you embarrass yourself anymore.

Since that particular report from Sept 2000 has been withdrawn by the original authors. (To quote from your link: "Data for human DBRF identified previously for the period of 1979 through 1996 were combined with human DBRF newly identified for 1997 and 1998. Human DBRF were identified by searching news accounts and by use of The Humane Society of the United States’ registry databank."

The problem is of course, that news accounts are notoriously inaccurate (see the exhaustive NCRC report for 2011: http://nationalcanineresearchcouncil.com/uploaded_files/tinymce/2011%20Final%20Investigative%20DBRF%20Report.pdf, along with other yearly reports.)

and from the more recent Dog Bite Fact Sheet dated April 1, 2008 from the CDC: "There is currently no accurate way to identify the number of dogs of a particular breed {involved in dog bites}, and consequently no measure to determine which breeds are more likely to bite or kill." (http://www.cdc.gov/HomeandRecreationalSafety/Dog-Bites/dogbite-factsheet.html)

And finally: the Humane Society doesn't compile such data.

[FreeState]

94. Can you show me where I have made any assertion

that your stating? I have posted statistics that show that Cows do not attack more than dogs. Thats it - I have made no statements or suggestions that any dog or bread be controlled or exterminated.

I'm embarrassing myself? How? Please tell me and I'll be sure to run next door and let my friends with three pit bulls, who I adore, what you think Im saying, I know they need a good laugh.

[Orrex]

74. I posted a question about that very recently and didn't really get an answer:

Every time this happens, knowledgeable dog people immediately assert that the owners didn't know how to handle the dogs, typically while asserting that the dogs aren't any more dangerous than other breeds.

I've owned a number of non-pitbull dogs in my time, as have a great many friends, and never have any of those dogs bitten anyone, despite the owners "not knowing how to handle them." That is, neither the dogs nor their owners had any special training, yet somehow the dogs managed to keep from mauling anyone.

What accounts for this? How safe can these dogs be if they require special, high-intensity training to manage them in the home? If it's really the case that they're no more dangerous than other breeds, then why must they be treated with extra caution?

[GreenEyedLefty]

6. I own a pitbull mix

I haven't a clue what she was "bred" to do. As far as I know she was bred to be a goofy mutt who loves people and other dogs.

I wouldn't leave her unsupervised with a small child, or my cat, for that matter. But then, I wouldn't leave any dog unsupervised with a small child or animal, regardless of breed, because dogs are animals and as such, they can be unpredictable. Even the best bred and trained ones.

I agree with the OP's last sentence that the owners are ultimately at fault. It seems to me the dogs were practicing basic "pack" behavior, and weren't trained or bred to kill human kids.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

8. I would never own a dog

that I couldn't trust around children and small animals. It's not 'training' that makes a dog want to kill anything it can.

All my dogs have been really gentle around day old chicks, ducklings and kittens. The Airedales would become so protective of the chicks and ducklings, they would search the skies for hawks, planes - anything airborne - to chase off.

[GreenEyedLefty]

12. Your dogs seem lovely... my dog would no doubt love them, too.

I do trust her, but in the end she is an animal, and that is how I choose to operate, particularly where my also-beloved small ones (kids and kitty) are concerned.

It's when people treat animals like people that trouble happens.

[easttexaslefty]

11. Exactly.

Very well put.

[talkingmime]

23. That's the only kind of pitbull I've ever encountered - big clowns.

[hedgehog]

25. "I haven't a clue what she was "bred" to do. "

That statement may contain more truth to it than you know!

[backwoodsbob]

40. I would leave ANY dog I ever owned

alone with a child and KNOW the child was probably better protected than if the parents were there.

If you ever made a threatening move towards a child with ANY dog I ever owned...Lord help you....and the most vigilant about it is my wonder terrier...Katie...Lord help you if she gets it in her head that you have bad intentions toward a child.

Pits are wired different...sorry but they are....I wouldn't allow a pit within 100 feet of a child

[Comrade_McKenzie]

9. The assault rifle of dogs. nt

[undeterred]

14. The grandchild of my neighbors was attacked by their dog when he was 18 mos old

The dog was a 12 year old cocker spaniel and the baby had grown up in the household. One day when everyone was out of the room there was a scream and when they came running in the boys face was covered with blood because of a bite from the dog which required considerable stitching. The dog had never bitten anyone in its entire life. It was put to sleep later that day because they could not rehome a dog who had bitten a child very easily.

Its likely that the child did something to provoke the dog to bite, but since nobody was watching, they'll never know.

Its likely that this child did something the dog perceived as threatening. Never leave a child that young alone with a dog.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

17. I agree.

I will agree there are bad dogs in the 'none' aggressive breeds. I believe that dogs are like people as far as there is always a rotten one in the bunch and if their having a bad day..then watch out.

It is a good idea never to leave a dog alone with a toddler because these tikes tend to grab fur and take other liberties. Life is unpredictable and if even for a brief moment in time the dog and toddler find themselves, alone, it's better that dog be one that is not a Pit Bull.

[hedgehog]

24. Cocker spaniels look gorgeous and are generally OK

BUT they have a reputation for biting. I've heard several explanations - overbreeding in the 50's, something called Rage Syndrome, etc.

http://www.journalvetbehavior.com/article/S1558-7878%2808%2900140-8/abstract

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Cocker_Spaniel

What's significant in all the descriptions I've read is that they will be very friendly, loyal, wonderful dogs until the day they bite someone - most often their owner! It sounds like most of them are OK, but no one can pick out the bad ones until the day the dog bites!


I love the look of cocker spaniels, but with all the other dogs out there, why take the risk?

[undeterred]

31. That sounds right. This dog was also getting older and there must

have been something the child did. The family had never worried about the dog and baby because there were no warning signs at all. Unfortunately their vet said - once a dog loses its inhibition to bite you can never trust it again. So, since the grandchild was living in their home, there wasn't much of a choice. Still, it was very sad.

[pnwmom]

42. Something the child did? The child might have merely tried to pick up his own toy.

A vicious dog doesn't belong near any child.

[undeterred]

105. As I explained, the dog and child had been together since the child was a baby with

no problems. It was not a vicious dog. A child that young might pull a dogs ear or poke at it because he is too young to understand that this might upset any dog.

[pnwmom]

108. Any dog that kills a baby is vicious. Non-vicious dogs don't kill toddlers

because a toddler tugged its ear, anymore than it would kill a puppy for nipping.

And one of these pit bulls was thought to have killed a cat.

[a la izquierda]

46. My husband has worked with dogs for 20 years.

He's been bitten exactly one time by a pit bull. He's received many bites from dockers, poodles, healers, etc. My only bite came from a Great Dane.

I would not leave any of my current dogs around children unsupervised. One dog is enormous and sweet, but his front and back ends aren't always in synch. He's sp excitable he'd be liable to knock a kid down.
The Chihuahua doesn't like anyone looking at his toys. Our medium mutt would like your face, which might freak a kid out.
Mostly, I wouldn't leave kids around my dogs because not all kids know how to treat animals. I have no children, so my dogs are rarely around them.

[shanti]

72. yes, i can attest to that

i was 2 when i was bit in the chin by a cocker spaniel in the 50's.

[DirkGently]

97. A friend was scarred for life (physically & emotionally) by a Lab

Small child, left alone with a large dog that "had never hurt anyone." He carries the scars on his face and a lifelong anxiety about dogs to this day. Big, tough, heavily-armed DEA agent, by the way.

Been following this for a while, and there's more crazy on the "Pit bulls are bred-in-the-bone killers" side of the discussion.

Any dog can bite. A large dog can bite hard. A large, powerful dog not properly socialized can be dangerous, especially to children, who look more like prey and don't know how dogs react.

Don't know why people are so gung-ho to make black or white judgments. Just intellectually lazy I guess.

[CobblePuller]

16. Nature/Nurture

I wonder how well this translates to homo sapiens...

[Sheepshank]

81. Boxers that are trained to fight, have been known to bite

ask Holyfield

[timdog44]

18. I am afraid this will turn into

another, my baby would not hurt a fly thread, but what you say is more truth than what I have seen on those other threads about the so called "nanny dog". Dog, and cats for that matter, are animals. Even if socialized, then can be brutal.

We have a lady down the road who has a malamute from a rescue place. The dog was as docile as could be. Then one day walking with the owner, down the road, all of a sudden got very disturbed with me (and he used to look forward to seeing me). She had decided to stop its "nerve" medicine (it was a rescue dog and apparently needed it). A week later she had it back on meds and it was fine again. No telling about animals. No telling about humans either, though.

[baldguy]

21. They weren't controlling the dogs in any way.

Nine dogs altogether - that's a pack.

The dogs could come & go as they pleased - not "family pets".

The dogs had recently killed a cat, and the people seemingly did nothing.

And the people certainly weren't watching their kids.

Unanswered questions: Were the dogs fixed? If not, were there any females in heat? Or recently given birth?

"No criminal charges had been filed..." Why the hell not? Negligence? Child endangerment?

No child should be allowed to play with any dog without supervision. EVER. It's a recipe for disaster. Don't blame the wrong end of the leash.

[talkingmime]

26. I agree. So much of everything is training. And shepherds and rotties have stronger bites.

The average force of a large dog (all breeds) is about 320lbs. Shepherds and rotties both have stronger grips than pitbulls and the "locking their jaws" meme is bullshit. The problem is with people who get such dogs to have a "bad ass dog" and treat them that way. Not so long ago, it was the bulldog breed that had that reputation. I've known weiner dogs that were nastier than ANY large dog I've encountered.

But you hit the nail on the head there - it was a pack, they weren't family pets, and the kid was left unattended. It could have been coyotes for that matter. Yes it's a tragedy, but blaming the breed is taking it too far. Barring mental defects, nasty dogs are the product of their upbringing and the stereotypes associated with the breeds greatly affect how they're raised.

[DirkGently]

99. And what breed are they even talking about? Staffies? American Staffies? Pits?

People now call any of three breeds, their mixes, and any other large, powerful, frightening dog a "pit bull." Now, if the point is that people who seek out and breed aggressive dogs call them "pit bulls," that's fine, but there's no rational way to draw a conclusion about dogs that are called that as having a pervasive aggressive temperament. Most of the attacks you hear about aren't purebreds in the first place, so the conclusion fails at the outset.

Smacks of fear and ignorance.

[talkingmime]

113. I don't fear any dog. The vast majority are totall cupcakes inside.

And yes, you are correct, most of the attacks are from mixed breeds lumped into the category "pit bulls". If you treat any dog well it will reciprocate. Not all dogs that are treated bad become bad, most just get hand-shy. The ones that don't become aggressive. It isn't their nature, just how they are treated. Our border collie sounds like she'll rip out your trachea but she wouldn't hurt anything. She was afraid of a baby rabbit that weighed less than a pound. The cats order her around.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

27. Never trust cat killers.

I knew some people that owned dogs that would kill a cat/kitten if it came in their pen. (When the people were out they kept the dogs in a big pen). They were the first ones I ever heard that said it's the owners fault if dog are aggressive. "It's the way dogs are raised" they would say. One day one of their dogs bit me in the leg and ran off. lol. It's the only time I've been bitten by a dig and it felt like my leg have been slammed in a car door. Ouch!

[liberal_at_heart]

51. More to do with how little people know about how to handle dogs and children

less to do with breed type. I agree. Anytime you let dogs pack together there will be aggression. That is how they figure out their hierarchy. I love watching wolves but it always makes me a little sad when I see the omega have to cower to the alpha. It's sad but it is nature. come to think of it, when my husband brought home his guide dog we had some alpha and omega issues of our own. Our son was about 8 yrs old at the time and very timid. The black lab felt he held a more dominate position than our son and when they played we noticed some aggressive behavior. He never bit him, but he played a little too rough and you could tell he was trying to dominate him. We of course made sure our lab knew exactly who the alpha was and that he was not above our son in position in the family. After that we all got along great and now our son and our dog get along very lovingly.

[bvar22]

28. "But she never did ANYTHING like this before!"

"She was always so gentle and protective with the children.
She would never hurt a fly."

How many times will we see this on the 10 O'Clock News
from weeping Pit Bull Owners as their "family member" is Put Down by the authorities?


That guy who used the say the same thing about his pet Hippo finally got eaten by his pet:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/14/pet-hippo-humphrey-kills-owner


It is a common chorus among the people featured on Fatal Attractions.
They ALL believe that somehow their pet is special,
and they are smarter that those other owners who have problems.

Every single Pit Owner says the same exact thing,
"He/She would never hurt a fly.
We let her play with our babies and NOTHING happened,
so THAT proves it! Those other Pit Bulls were mistreated.
Nothing like that could happen with our special Pit Bull.
The Media have given them a bad name."


...until it does, and they wind up on the 10PM news.


I do not support the banning of any breeds,
but the owners of large dogs need to admit that their pet is capable of inflicting mortal damage on human beings,
and behave responsibly with their animals.
ANY dog can Go Off unexpectedly.
When Pit Bulls Go Off, they can do severe damage.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

37. Incredible...

the hippo's owner said the hippo was lovable and a gentle giant, yet the hippo had seriously chased people and killed calves. Hippo's are extremely dangerous, yet this man said he was like a son and just like a human!

I heard years ago that a local man had a pet bull. One day, while he was feeding his 'pet' treats, the bull killed him. Every cowboy knows, you never turn your back on a bull.

[defacto7]

52. And every pig farmer knows...

You never, ever fall into a pen of full grown pigs. You can literally be eaten alive in a minute. Many times pigs stomachs have had to be cut open just to find the remains of the victim because none remained but some clothing. And people sometimes just think, oh how cute... pigs.

Hippos BTW are ruthless killers, probably the most dangerous creature in the wild.

People just make up fairytales about their favorite animal/dog and really have no idea what the genetic nature is which has little to do with owners. Pit Bulls are not a breed of dog. They are classified as a Pit Bull Type dog mainly because there is no way to know their breeding background. They are too messed up as a canine to have any stable standard. If you own one, you have no idea what you have and have no idea what you can teach it that can overcome it's pretty screwed up breeding past. You may be lucky for years.... then they show their uncontrollable side and you hope no one is hurt or killed. This is the story played over and over.

BTW, the dogs mentioned were a Mother and her 6 month old pups. And yes, any group of dogs, 2 or more can constitute pack rule.

[DirkGently]

101. Or a Mastiff, Rottweiler, Shepherd, etc. Not especially "pit bulls."

There's no genuine breed distinction being made in any of these stories. The term "pit bull" covers three separate breeds, and mixes are still called "pit bulls" as well.

It's just become a word for a large, powerful dog capable of seriously hurting someone. That's the only distinction that carries any weight, not the supposed genetics or the breed name.

[Agent William]

34. I agree

Somehow people think that these sorts of dogs are a cool statement.

Maybe you should include Staffordshire terriers in there too!!

[TexasBushwhacker]

43. American Staffordshire Terriers are Pit Bulls

They are descendants of the Staffordshire Bull Terriers of England.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

48. The American pit bull is banned in the UK

The Staffordshire Terrier is not. Some say it should be.

[BlueSpot]

35. It is disturbing to me

How the defenses posted here about dogs so closely mirror the defense posited by the NRA about guns. Isn't saying "It isn't the dog's fault, it's the owner's fault" pretty much akin to "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"?

I am not a gun fan. Don't own one, don't want one. I would be OK if they banned them entirely. On the other hand, I like dogs. I like dogs a lot. It's just that reading this thread really made me see the parallel between the two arguments. I'm going to have to think about this some more.

[DirkGently]

103. Dogs don't exist primarily to kill humans.

And even the most egregious pit-bull bigot can't claim that. High-capacity, rapid-firing weapons are designed specifically to kill a lot of people quickly. Dogs are dogs. They're individuals, and while breeding impacts temperament, given that "pit bull" has become a meaningless term for any big, aggressive dog that bites someone, there's no rational argument to be made that they're somehow an inherent risk we can't afford to bear.

[PD Turk]

36. Good grief

That poor child

7 dogs and a doggie door says a lot. They had a pack of dogs that were allowed to go wherever they pleased whenever they pleased. That's a recipe for disaster whatever the breed. Anytime you have 3 or more dogs they will organize themselves into a pack and an alpha dog WILL emerge among them, independent of their human "masters" unless there is a human in charge that well knows how to handle dogs, understands their behavior and will step in and be the "hammer" with them.

There were warning signs in this case that the dogs were getting rank and it appears those signs were ignored.

[OwnedByCats]

38. Everyone talks about what they were bred for

The earliest pit bull breeds (there are several, pit bull is a generic term) were bred for hunting, bull baiting, working on farms and companion animals, yes companion family members. Most dog breeds were bred to kill/hunt other animals, even a tiny dog like the Basenji was bred to hunt small game in Africa. But of course the pits were also bred for fighting - but not to fight people. I've seen some interviews with dog fighters (covered their faces of course, cowards) and they will say they don't want a dog that is people aggressive, that dog could turn on them. They want them to be dog aggressive, obviously. They said that they would kill a pit bull that showed any aggression towards their owners. Now I am unfamiliar with a long line of any pit bull breed that were bred for killing people specifically. However, any time that you train a dog to be so aggressive to another dog that they will tear them up, disembowel them and usually end up killing them - you do take a chance that the dog aggression can turn to people aggression. It's a very dangerous game to play and unfortunately, between the scum bags who fight dogs and the ones who abuse their pit, train it to be dog and/or people aggressive - then you have a problem. Pit bulls more commonly attack other animals than people anyway, but a small percentage will go after people.

Tonight as a matter of fact, on the news in my area a pit bull was found in a dumpster, dead of course - emaciated, tore up, had no teeth. That dog was probably used as a bait dog. They will remove the teeth of the bait dog so it doesn't hurt their "champion" in training. I hear these stories constantly. Pit bulls being starved to death, beaten and abandoned where they either die on the street, animal control picks them up (and they are dead anyway after that, they'll only hold them for a few days), or if they are lucky, a rescue shelter takes them in. I have heard the most disgusting things that have been done to these dogs (and many other animals, cats etc). What a human does to a dog or ANY animal, they should know better. A dog is an animal that doesn't know any better, especially if they are specifically trained to be people aggressive, not trained properly, not socialized properly, abused - most of the time all roads of a problem dog lead back to the owner. Dogs don't come to us all perfect and well behaved as puppies. It takes a good pack leader. I guarantee that if everyone who owned a dog was responsible and did completely right by that dog, you'd be hearing a lot less about ANY dog attacking people. And don't be fooled, any dog can be unpredictable. Always always use caution when approaching any dog you don't know, and always use proper judgment to keep your children, visitors to your home and your dog safe.

An example of something unfortunate - a friend of mine and her family had a Rottweiler when we were teenagers. He was absolutely sweet and loving, gorgeous dog. Very protective of the children. They let him run around the yard, no leash, no run, no nothing. I said maybe they should think twice about that, since the dog could get hit by a car. "Oh he never goes near the road" they told me. I said that doesn't matter, just because he hadn't up until that point did not mean he wouldn't later. Three months later, he was hit by a car after his owners believed he would never venture in the road and he died from his injuries on the way to the vet's office. He was only 2 years of age. We didn't know why he suddenly decided to go in the road, but the point is you never assume anything like that. Communication with our pets are limited. We can do our best, but using good judgment and common sense will give you the best success.

[Boudica the Lyoness]

49. I think it's the pitt bull's tendency

to attack other animals that has me concerned. They don't bite and run like some dogs. They attack to kill.

Not all breeds were originally bred to go after game/rodents etc. I'm thinking of my herding dog. But even she will chase a rabbit when she see's one, and there are no cows she should be working. About the horrid dog fighter's killing their dog if it bit them, from what I know about dogs, their owner is usually the one they are least likely to bite.

Thanks for your input. I found it very interesting.

[OwnedByCats]

57. You're right

Breeds like German Shepherds, Dobermans and Rottweilers were not bred for fighting each other or to hunt/kill animals, however some will kill small animals and some have maimed/killed people. I once knew someone who had a German Shepherd who liked killing squirrels and possums. They are animals and sometimes these things occur, regardless of what they were bred for in the beginning. But then I have met some who were big babies and you wonder if they could be good guard dogs when they are scared of their own shadow lol. I just personally believe, after coming across so many dogs in my life, that having a responsible owner who knows what they are doing makes all the difference in most dogs. You can have exceptions, but for the most part you get what you give. I have never come across a vicious pit bull and I have worked with a lot. Of course their owners weren't irresponsible idiots either. Millions of people out there with pits who lived out their entire lives and died never having attacked anyone.

The problem I feel most of the time is the owner, minus the odd exceptions. When I see people say that pit bulls were bred to specifically kill people, that is ridiculous. Are some trained to be people aggressive and because of their power they can kill? Yes, some are. TRAINED, not BRED for people aggression. This is not the dog's fault, it's the sick bastards that train them. When it comes to their dog/animal agression, even the people who fight their dogs will tell you that a lot of work goes into training them to fight so they are not as naturally eager to do so as you might expect.

It's difficult for me to take my experiences, the experiences of pit rescuers, the vast majority of owners, dog trainers like Cesar Millan and others and believe that pits are born wanting to kill people right out of the womb. If you read these threads on here about pit bulls, you see more people with positive experiences than negative ones - a lot more. Most (not all) of the negative ones are those who have never owned a pit bull. Either the dog belonged to someone else or they didn't know who owned the dog and they rarely know the dog's history and presume the dog is just vicious because they were "bred" to kill people. And of course they've never put themselves in an environment where they will come across high numbers of them, especially with the ones who have good owners so they have this perception that is not shared amongst people who do have the experience.

Not just anyone should own a pit bull, only those who know what they're doing. If a pit bull IS vicious, if rehabilitation is not possible, then I can understand the need to have that dog put down and I'm in agreement with that course of action. But to blindly believe that ALL of them are like that, which in turn causes things like BSL and people get their dogs taken from them and put to sleep even though those dogs never so much as hurt a fly, I have a big problem with that.

Judge by the deed, not the breed.

[Egalitarian Thug]

47. Well, they shouldn't have been breast feeding it in the smoking section of Olive Garden anyway. n/t

[Zorra]

50. For the life of me, I can't understand why so many people are enamored with pit bulls.

There are so many awesome breeds of dogs out there that have better qualities, in every respect, and who don't suddenly snap and turn into raging insane demons from hell like pit bulls do.

[defacto7]

53. Ironically

That is exactly why they want them. It's a FU to everyone else and a "power of fear" psychology where they are the great owner trainers of a beast people find fearful. The pièce de résistance is that they can play the mentor to the less fortunate ignorant people who don't understand how perfectly harmless their little doggie is. They can deny it, but that is a real psychological profile in the rough.

All people need to do is know what is real, know how to respect the animal, know it's limitations and it's vague or not so vague possible dangers and be civilized human beings.

[Liberty Belle]

54. Absolutely right. I'm a news editor and 99% of dog attacks reported here are pit bulls

or pit bull mixes. All but one fatal dog attack we've had in recent years in our area, one of the largest counties in the U.S. were by pit bulls, too. In many of these cases the owners insisted these were sweet dogs not raised to be mean. They just don't realize that the dogs were bred to be killers, and anything or nothing can trigger the attack instinct.

A friend of mine was once talking on the phone with his son, warning him he should get rid of his pit bull. The son, who was walking his dog at the time, insisted his was a friendly dog that would never hurt a flea. Suddenly he had to get off the phone - because his dog had just attacked and seriously mauled another dog being walked nearby.

I've had to report on an elderly lady who died after a triple amputation caused by her neighbors' pit bulls attacking. And a baby who died after having its face chewed off. The list goes on and on.

While I don't advise leaving a baby or toddler alone with ANY animal, since small children may inadvertently provoke even the best of pets to react in self defense, pit bulls are particularly dangerous due to their breeding and when they do attack, it's hard to pull them off or stop the attack - it just goes on and on and sometimes the person intervening gets hurt, too.

People who insist these dogs are safe if properly raised are living in Fantasyland. Much as you may want that to be the case, it is simply not true. They are ticking time bombs. Sure, there are people who have pit bulls that don't ever attack. They are lucky. There are people who smoke their whole lives and don't get cancer, but that doesn't mean it's not extremely risky.

[sendero]

58. Don't worry...

.... 90% of the folks whose dog killed a child were DEAD CERTAIN that the animal would not hurt a fly.

And everyone's anecdotal experience trumps your statistic.

Every living mammal has "genetic memory" what some call instinct. They behave based on that genetic profile that absolutely and provably varies by breed. The same "instinct" that lets a herding dog be born know how to herd cattle or goats lets another dog fly off the handle and go postal with minimal not-well-understood provocations.

Too many pit bulls get out of their fence and hurt people. If it were up to me they'd either be banned or you would have to pay a hefty fee, to cover the cost of inspecting your caging/fence system to make sure it met a rigorous standard.

Sueing the idiots that keep these dogs is scant comfort knowing that your child died a horrible and pointless death.

[XemaSab]

55. I've had 7 dogs in my life

These dogs were all owned by myself and my mom, so anyone who says it's the owner and not the dog, listen up.


Bonnie was a Maltese poodle my mom got as a puppy. She was smart and loyal and one day someone got too close to my stroller and she nipped the person.

Cinder was Bonnie's puppy. She was a MaltiePoo and she was sweet and dumb.

Cary was a Cocker we got as a puppy and he was sweet but sometimes he would run frantically around the house and we eventually gave him away because we could not control him.

Polly was a Lab/cattle dog mix we got as a puppy. She was a great dog but she kept trying to run away. Like if you left the gate open she would be *gone*. She could easily clear a four-foot fence. She was also very picky about food, which made her hard to train. The vet actually suggested that we feed her every other day.

Bailey is a Newfoundland/Springer mix. We've had him since he was 6 weeks old. Both of his parents are working dogs, but he's a big sweetheart. Smart but a little stubborn. LOVES food. Hates to go out when it's raining.

Pippi is a cattle dog/boxer mix. We got her at the shelter when she was about 3. She's very smart and initially she was very obedient and very docile but the older she gets the more stubborn and high strung she gets. For example, sometimes she doesn't want to come inside, and you can tell her to come in the house but she just stands there looking at you like "Mmmmm... no." I don't know what this is about. She's generally pretty motivated by food, but not nearly as much as Bailey is.

Finally, there's Maddy. We got her at the pound when she was about 1. She's an English shepherd, which is similar to a border collie, and although she loves her people, she's scared of Bailey (!), she hates Pippi, and she is utterly relentless towards small animals in the yard. I have seen her spend hours hunting down a single lizard. I have seen other ES owners say that if there aren't firm rules in the house, the ES will make and enforce her own rules, and I think that one of the rules that Maddy has established is "Screw you, Pip." She likes food, but some nights she won't eat at all if she doesn't like what she's served.

Where I'm going with this is that each of my dogs has had his or her own personality, and I think those personalities are more about genetics than they are about me.

Anyone who doesn't recognize this is not looking at the situation in an objective manner.

[DirkGently]

104. People have genetics. Do we assume their personalities are hardwired from birth?

Anyone who thinks THAT is being dishonest or deliberately obtuse.

[XemaSab]

107. Were people selectively bred for hundreds of generations to have particular personality traits?

Talk to me then.

[nadine_mn]

56. I think that the dogs were a pack had more to do with this than the breed

A mom and her pups...that's a pack and pack mentality is very different. Esp the fact that it was a momma and her puppies...every single dog advice book, column, website I have ever read warns against getting 2 dogs from the same litter ...their bond to each other will always be stronger than their bond to you and training them will be more difficult. Imagine that bond between a mother and her offspring. Now I am not saying not to adopt 2 dogs from the same litter and I am sure several people will post that they never had problems with litter mates ... But I think there is some validty to the concept of a strong family bond.

We had a lab mix and a collie mix and we often took them to run and play in the backyard with my mom's German shepherd. All 3 dogs were so sweet and they played well together and were very gentle dogs. One day when they were playing, I heard them barking in a frantic unusual way and when I went to check on them saw that a rabbit was in the yard and they were chasing it. It was the most horrific thing I have ever seen - they had the rabbit cornered (it did escape) and I could not call them off. They were acting in way I had never seen before and never saw again - they moved in complete formation, barking signals to each other and were deadly serious chasing that rabbit.

I am not dismissing breed or even individual dog personalities nor am I vilifying a breed, but you have to know what you are getting into. We had at one time a collie mix, a lab mix, a Chesapeake bay retriever mix, and a German shepherd. The first two have since passed away. Training each dog was a unique experience - and the difference between the lab and the GSD are night and day. Our GSD challenges our authority every day and everyday I remind him who is alpha.

My husband wants to get a Husky so much and I keep saying no. We do not exercise enough to give the dog what it needs, nor are we (mainly him) consistent enough in our training. We could get away with lax training with a lab...not with our GSD and most definitely not with a Husky. This doesn't mean Huskies aren't wonderful dogs...we are just not the right owners at this time.

What happened to this little girl and her family is tragic...and sadly a tragedy that could have been prevented.

[The Link]

68. The breed should be banned.

[Doremus]

91. Cool, a fresh subject.

[Apophis]

95. Methinks this thread was started to stir shit.

[Texasgal]

98. Yup.

This is a long going cluster fuck on DU.

[DirkGently]

102. Australian Shepherds can be vicious too.

Seriously, enough with the breed bigotry, everyone.

BRADENTON, Fla. - Two Australian Shepherd dogs are the Grinches who managed to ruin the Christmas holiday for Justin Curtis and his family.
The dogs left him with stitches and on crutches after attacking him on Christmas Eve as he tried to give the mailman a letter his father forget to send out.
"As soon as they got close enough they just sank their teeth right into my right leg," said Justin.
On his bike, Justin tried to fend the dogs off. It didn't work and they ended up dragging him to the ground. During the attack they bit him six times. A bite to his left calf was so bad it exposed muscle.

Read more: http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_sarasota_manatee/bradenton/deputies-man-steps-in-to-help-13-year-old-boy-being-attacked-by-dogs-both-bitten#ixzz2PMNQlA7x

[XemaSab]

112. I have an English shepherd

She has the personality of the breed.

[TDale313]

106. Incredibly sad story. Poor baby. n/t

[arely staircase]

110. look, a pit bull thread on DU GD!

that never happens.

[Nye Bevan]

111. In other news. Golden Retriever kills nobody.

King Charles Spaniel cocks leg, pees, and kills nobody.

Bichon Frise kills nobody.