Post removed

[Azathoth]

1. Not a good idea to start a post by exculpating Anwar al-Awlaki

He is responsible for his son's death, not Obama. You managed to discredit yourself before you even got to the body of your post.

[Bonobo]

5. So you DON'T think a person has a right to a legal defense before being killed

if the father is a bad enough guy?

The father had been dead for 3 weeks before the Denver teenager was killed by a drone attack so how exactly was it his fault?

You defend the indefensible and say I have no credibility?

Someone sounds like a monster but it isn't me.

[FarLeftFist]

8. Maybe because he was an enemy combatant working for Al-Qaeda?

[Bonobo]

10. Wow, shouldn't that be like judged by a trial or something???

I know.. pretty insane idea, huh.

[FarLeftFist]

13. Sometimes criminals die in shootouts.

[Cali_Democrat]

19. What crime was the US-born teenager accused of?

[Bonobo]

22. He was not just "US born". he was an American teenager.

His "guilt" or that of his father should have been determined by a legal process.

How has a Democratic board strayed SO FUCKING FAR?

Humans are scary fucking animals, that's all I can say... if they have such a shifting sense of right and wrong.

[piratefish08]

49. these same actions by Bush = holy SHIT we would have gone nuts. hell, we did go nuts.

i guess it just depends who is calling the shots.

literally.

[FarLeftFist]

39. The teenage son wasn't accused of a crime, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[EOTE]

67. Ahhh, so you think the death is less abhorrent and more acceptable for a democratic president

because the kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Absolutely disgusting. The insane contortions I see around here defending Obama no matter what atrocities he commits is sickening.

[Capitalocracy]

28. An example of such a shootout here:

[Donald Ian Rankin]

57. Do you extend the same logic to enemy soldiers in a war?

If not, where do you draw the dividing line between criminal and military.

Personally, I would put it at "engaged in large-scale violence, and impossible to capture alive" - a standard which an Al-Quaeda leader at a military training camp in Yemen probably meets.

[RC]

61. An "enemy combatant" is a bu$h/Cheney invention to

demonize any nationals in their own country fighting to defend their country against foreign invaders, i.e., us, U.S., the United States.
We used to fund and back Al-Qaeda when they were the good guys fighting the Russians. My, how times have changed.

[LanternWaste]

74. Funny how times change, governments change, policies change.

"We used to fund and back Al-Qaeda when they were the good guys fighting the Russians. My, how times have changed...."


Precisely. At one point in the 19th century, Germany was our strongest trading partner and a willing ally. Then we went to war with them... twice. Then they became a lynchpin for American interests in Western Europe.

Funny how times change, governments change, policies change. Seems almost like... history.

[boppers]

14. Wait, this happened in Denver?

I was under the impression that it happened in a war zone.

Has Denver changed *that* much since I was last there?

[Azathoth]

15. What the hell are you talking about?

Why would he need a lawyer? He wasn't charged with anything, and he wasn't targeted by the US.

He died because he was sitting in the house of a senior Al Qaeda operative, and he was sitting there because his father saw fit to make war on the United States and bring his son along for the ride.

[RC]

65. No, he died because we really do not care much who else dies when we execute people because

we pronounce the death sentence on them without benefit of a trial or other legal proceedings.

What are we doing waging war in countries we have not declared war on?

[treestar]

62. That was not such a situation

If I recall correctly, the kid was killed by accident.

There was no intent or order to kill him.

If you don't like drone attacks on principle, why not address that issue? It's the real issue, isn't it?

[RC]

70. NO, the real issue is the fact we are even there in the first place.

Why are we there? Anyone call for us to help there? No, no one did. We are just there.
The war on Terror will be never ending because for every terrorist we kill, several more terrorists will be generated from the surviving relatives and friends. Our MIC has found the solution for their eternal existence.

We, as a country get away with this because in our arrogance we think we can go most anywhere in the world and kill and take what we want because we are the USA, Rah! Rah! Rah!

[sabrina 1]

50. No, he is not. Do you realize what you just said?? A child can be killed because of something their

parents did. I cannot believe the lengths people go to to try to excuse clearly wrong, immoral, unconstitutional behavior. I find it thoroughly incredible that anyone would promote the idea that if your parents do something wrong, YOU should be executed for it. Do you realize how the world is now viewing this country? Is this what happens when people only look at things from inside?

I have not given up hope that one day these draconian and criminal policies will be ended and this country will once again actually abide by the rule of law.

Bonobo did not discredit himself, I have the utmost respect for those whose principles do not change depending on the situation they find themselves in.

Extra-judicial killing is wrong, period. It was wrong when Bush was doing it and it's still wrong.

And imho, those who are discrediting themselves and this country, are the ones attempting to excuse these violations of rights.

I guess the teenagers who were at the party and killed also, deserved it. Tell it to their parents.

[Cid_B]

52. It's an inability to critically analyse a situation...

Sticking a teenager in a home doesn't suddenly put up a magical anti-hellfire shield.

If a father brought his son along on an armed bank robbery, it would be the fathers fault if the child was injured in a shootout.

Also, what message does that send?

"Dear assholes, you'd better have an innocent child with you at all times otherwise we are going to light your world up."

Lastly, as per an pro-AQAP source

____________________

"His sadness reached its peak after the American planes assassinated his father," said Abdul Razzaq al Jamal, a Yemeni journalist from Al Wasat, according to a statement posted on jihadist forums that was translated by the SITE Intelligence Group. Jamal spent weeks with AQAP in the Zinjibar area and elsewhere in southern Yemen, and wrote articles that sympathized with the terror group's attempts to control the region.

"But when he said to the Emir [Leader] of the city of Azzam, 'I hope to attain martyrdom as my father attained it,' it did not come to his mind that this will happen, and just one day after he said it. This actually happened. The son joined the father in another American raid that came only two weeks apart from the one that assassinated his father," Jamal continued.



Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2011/12/anwar_al_awlakis_son.php#ixzz1gh2UpiVd

[Azathoth]

54. So a parent who brings his child to a warzone bears no responsibility?

Come on.

... I have the utmost respect for those whose principles do not change depending on the situation they find themselves in.

One of the first things I discovered in college is that, in nearly every system of "principles," one can construct a situtation where rigid, narrow-sighted adherence to principle leads to a result that wholly conflicts with the original intent of the system. Call it the law of unintended consequences or whatever you like.

The Bill of Rights was designed to protect the freedoms of Americans, not shield those who would victimize their fellow citizens and take those freedoms away. It doesn't give you the right to hurt others. You can't shout 'fire' in a crowded theater, and you can't wage war on the United States while hiding out in a foreign warzone outside the reach of law enforcement.

Extra-judicial killing is wrong, period.

This is a perfect example of the paradox I mentioned above. The fundamental moral intent behind this principle is, obviously, justice. Killing someone without letting him have a fair trial is unjust and barbaric. But what happens when that person deliberately places himself in a position where he cannot be taken into custody and fairly tried? Either we kill him, or he continues to kill innocent people. By adhering rigidly to a single principle, we are enabling an even greater injustice to occur.

[ProSense]

2. Dump him!

He's pure evil: killing teenagers and freezing seniors! Expect the death toll in those groups to rise in his second term!

Pitchforks!

[Bonobo]

4. Ironically you are right.

More teenagers will die from drone attacks and poor people will die of cold.

I wonder if you realize the irony of your reply.

[ProSense]

12. Yup

"More teenagers will die from drone attacks and poor people will die of cold. "

...murder, she wrote!

[Capitalocracy]

29. Poor people will die from lack of heating assistance. Probably old ones.

They will. It's pretty much a 100% certainty.

[ProSense]

37. Yes

Poor people will die from lack of heating assistance. Probably old ones.

They will. It's pretty much a 100% certainty.

...I know. This state of this country is tragic.

Do you think the deaths can be tied to Obama's policies?

[REP]

3. Yeah, I don't get Ron Paul supporters, either.

[Modern_Matthew]

6. It's always good to see another person with sense that made the DU3 switch...

It was getting gruesome over here with the armies of apologists and centrists.

[ProSense]

16. Hmmm?

"It was getting gruesome over here with the armies of apologists and centrists."

The most rec'd post here is calling for the President to be dumped. This takes playing the victim to unprecedented heights.

[geek tragedy]

7. Do you have any evidence the kid was the target

as opposed to being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[Bonobo]

9. Nope. Just that it would be an insane coincidence.

Also there was no denial. No openness or apologies. Just a lot of silence.

Any evidence that he wasn't the target?

Because if he was hit accidentally, I would THIK there would have been a very vocal apology and admittance of the error -WOULDN'T YOU???

[boppers]

17. The father ran with self-described terrorists. So did the son.

That's not an insane coincidence, that's an expected outcome.

[Bonobo]

20. The father was a US citizen. The son was a US citizen. No charges were leveled against either.

Are you sure you're "down" with a radical document like the "Constitution"?

[FarLeftFist]

21. But they weren't the targets, they were at a top Al-Qaeda operatives house.

Also, he was already convicted by a judge.

[Bonobo]

25. Ha ha, bullshit mixed with speculation.

A "Yemeni" judge convicted the dad. Not exactly a good reason for the US to feel justified in killing a US citizen, right?

As for your claim that it was just an accident, where are the US denials and apologies for killing an US citizen then?

[FarLeftFist]

31. Uh, yeah no. It's not speculation. He was a wanted criminal on the run from authority.

I never said it was an accident. You really want a President to apologize to a terrorist? Wish you were this concerned about our own troops.

[joeglow3]

68. Some people love to argue for the sake of arguing

Just try to avoid them.

[boppers]

55. You check the citizenship of people shooting at you?

How convenient.

That being said, we are on a precipice, created by the bullshit attitude that US citizens, and non-citizens, have different rights.

[treestar]

63. Are you sure you are down with the idea of leaving Al Qaeda operatives alone?

To plan attacks and then see if we can try them for murder afterward?

I'm all for peace, and not for unnecessary war, but don't take it so far that Al Qaeda can't be stopped.

[FarLeftFist]

18. A Yemeni judge already convicted him to death, he was on the run.

In November 2010, for plotting to kill foreigners and being a member of al-Qaeda, and a Yemenite judge ordered that he be captured "dead or alive". He should have then turned himself in peacefully and voluntarily been tried by jury.

[GReedDiamond]

23. OK, a "Yemenite" Court conviction has more weight...

...than the the protections and rights (supposedly) provided to United States Citizens by the Constitution of the United States.

Fuck that.

[FarLeftFist]

27. Hundreds of Americans each year are sentenced in foreign courts and can't be helped by the U.S.

[GReedDiamond]

30. And how many of them have subsequently...

...been targeted for drone missile attack?

Fuck off with this bullshit, it's un-American, anti-Constitutional and immoral.

And, not-so-newsflash: Al Qaeda was essentially created by the CIA.

Live and Not learn, that's your approach?

[FarLeftFist]

32. *Yawn*

[GReedDiamond]

33. Yeah, your continued defense of the indefensible...

...must really wear you out.

Go to sleep, little one.

[FarLeftFist]

35. Nope, its just that yours is worn out. Can't muster the empathy for terrorists. Sorry.

[FarLeftFist]

45. You're calling the wrong person a coward. Trust me. Still can't muster up the empathy for terrorists

Can you please let me know anywhere that I said I'm "afraid" of terrorists, or are you projecting? Fuck off? Puh-lease.

[Capitalocracy]

51. He's giving you the benefit of the doubt by saying you're afraid of terrorists.

Only fear can explain (not excuse) giving up the ideals the U.S. was founded upon. If you're not afraid, the only assumption one can make is that you never held those ideals to begin with.

[boppers]

56. "Al Qaeda was essentially created by the CIA"

Fail middle east history much?

[treestar]

64. It had all happened in Yemen

We can't afford to use our court system for the entire world.

If people in Yemen want a Constitution like ours, they can do what it takes to get one.

[Azathoth]

24. LOL, it would be an insane coincidence that the son of an Al Qaeda operative would be in the house

of another Al Qaeda operative? Do you even hear yourself?

And yes, there was a very blunt denial that he was targeted.

[Bonobo]

26. It wasn't blunt. It was weak, late and murky.

Post your "blunt denial".

Why wouldn't the President make a statement apologizing for the accidental killing of a US citizen?

President too busy? How about the SOS, the SOD or ANY top official?

Cause it was a non-denial denial/

Do you hear YOURSELF?

First you argue he deserved it and when you realize how fascistic you are sounding, you switch to a lame denial that he was targeted.

His father was targeted, right? You do admit that, right? Well HE was a US citizen too.

The son murdered 3 weeks later? Yes, that would be a pretty fucking huge coincidence unless you think that those drones are just everywhere firing missiles all over the place.

Don't make me laugh. You're being absurd.

[Azathoth]

34. Here ya go

One administration official described the younger Awlaki as a bystander, in the wrong place at the wrong time. “The U.S. government did not know that Mr. Awlaki’s son was there” before the order to launch the missile was given, the official said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-airstrike-that-killed-american-teen-in-yemen-raises-legal-ethical-questions/2011/10/20/gIQAdvUY7L_story_1.html

A U.S. official said the young man "was in the wrong place at the wrong time," and that the U.S. was trying to kill a legitimate terrorist — al-Qaeda leader Ibrahim al-Banna, who also died — in the strike that apparently killed the American teenager.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2097899,00.html#ixzz1ggaq5TDv

So much for the "non-denial denial". You're making yourself look ridiculous.

And yes, his father deserved exactly what he got. US citizenship is not a license to make war on the United States with impunity. If you do so and then put yourself in a foreign warzone, outside the reach of US law enforcement, then you're a traitor, an enemy soldier, and a wholly-justified military target.

[Bonobo]

41. Ha ha ha. Thanks for proving my point.

Those are precisely the kind of weak, murky statements from un-named "government officials" that are the gal indication -to anyone that has been around and watching politics for a few decades - of what really happened.

Why un-named officials? Why no one on the record?

Why do you think the accidental killing of a US citizen isn't remarkable enough to justify an major statement by a named official AND an apology?

You are killing me with your naiveté.

[Azathoth]

43. LOL I prove that you have no idea what you're talking about, so you just declare victory anyway

and move on. Good strategy

[Bonobo]

46. You cannot disguise your open contempt for Constitutional Rights.

You seem to feel that Constitutional Rights are open to interpretation and may be voiced if SOMEONE thinks that you don't deserve them.

Too bad for all the US soldiers that died and were maimed fighting for the rights you spit on.

[Azathoth]

48. You can't shout "fire" in a crowded theater

and you can't make war on the United States while hiding out in a foreign warzone.

Using the Bill of Rights to protect this kind of behavior makes a mockery out of the Constitution and the sacrifices of the Framers.

[emulatorloo]

58. Typical of several of our more prolific DU thread starters.

They make a dishonest claim.
Others correct them

Then they double down

[Tx4obama]

44. And who would our government apologize to? The wife of the Al-Qaeda member Anwar al-Awlaki?

There is no way in hell that our government or President Obama would ever apologize to a terrorist's family!

If a person doesn't want their kids to get killed by a drone attacking terrorists, then make sure your kids are not hanging out where the terrorists are having their meetings!

[joshcryer]

11. Quite a few probably did, thus the outrage at his doing what he said he'd do.

It's not hard to find that implication...

...some people just overlooked his hard on terrorism stance and his Afghanistan war stance particularly since a good deal of the debate back then revolved around viability. Of course, Afghanistan escalation didn't matter much to some, as far as I can tell.

[Tx4obama]

36. President Obama did NOT order the killing of a US teenager

The order that went out was on an adult Al Qaeda member.

The kid just happened to be hanging out with the terrorists at the time the terrorists were targeted.

The OP subject line is FALSE.

[ProSense]

38. Ssssh!

You're interrupting the depress the vote outrage!

[SidDithers]

71. Bingo...

Well said.

Sid

[JoePhilly]

69. With the Iraq war ending, the manufactured outrage needs to be refocused.

[Tx4obama]

42. Anwar al-Awlaki's SON grew up OUTSIDE of The USA

Anwar al-Awlaki

SNIP

In "44 Ways to Support Jihad," another sermon posted on his blog in February 2009, al-Awlaki encouraged others to "fight jihad", and explained how to give money to the mujahideen or their families after they've died. Al-Awlaki's sermon also encouraged others to conduct weapons training, and raise children "on the love of Jihad." Also that month, he wrote: "I pray that Allah destroys America and all its allies." He wrote as well: "We will implement the rule of Allah on Earth by the tip of the sword, whether the masses like it or not." On July 14, he criticized armies of Muslim countries that assist the U.S. military, saying, "the blame should be placed on the soldier who is willing to follow orders ... who sells his religion for a few dollars."In a sermon on his blog on July 15, 2009, entitled "Fighting Against Government Armies in the Muslim World," al-Awlaki wrote, "Blessed are those who fight against American soldiers, and blessed are those shuhada (martyrs) who are killed by them."
http://www.aabout.biz/2011/09/anwar-al-awlaki.html
---

Did you catch that? " ... raise children "on the love of Jihad."

He and his SON can not be compared to a average American father and son - the 'teenager' was the son of one of the Most Wanted members of Al Qaeda.
al-Awlaki's son lived in Yemen since 2002 - he was NOT raised like an American, The son was raised 'on the love of Jihad'.
I'd put my money on that his dad indoctrinated him into his ideology and was grooming him for a position in Al Qaeda.
There have been children as young as six years old that have been trained by members of Al Qaeda.

================================

[treestar]

66. Aw-laki did too, mostly

Didn't he spend most of his years in Yemen and not the US?

We do not recognize dual citizenship. I thought that at age 21 a dual citizen had to choose. And Aw-laki was clearly not on the side of the US. He even entered the US with a visa, as an alien, at one point.

So the US citizens in danger here is just a created facade.

[RBInMaine]

47. Fringe overreaction once again. The Feinstein Amendment fixed the bill. Enough paranoia.

[themadstork]

59. people in this thread describing yemen as a war zone. . .

oy. . .

[joeybee12]

60. And I wish people wouldmn't idol worship...you are totally

clueless as to the direction Obama is headed, further down the road to fascism started by Bush and company...he's not trying to do the right thing at all.

[SidDithers]

72. Pffftttt....

The President didn't order the killing of a US teenager.

Sid

[wryter2000]

73. It's "to tread." n/t

.