When did pointing out privilege become a personal attack?

[YoungDemCA]

Far too often, in discussions both online and IRL ("in real life&quot , I have observed the following:

Somebody makes the (well-documented, well-supported) observation that, for example, on average, white people are wealthier than people of color, or that men have many social and economic privileges that women don't, or that straight people have a lot privileges through marriage laws that LGBT people do not have...

And inevitably, somebody else becomes very defensive, saying that they are straight, white, and/or male, and THEY do not "feel" privileged, or have been treated like shit by their employer, or that THEY "earned" everything they have, without any kind of preferential treatment due to broader social factors. In other words, this defensive person assumes that they are personally being blamed for the plight of under-privileged and disadvantaged social groups, and so get angry at that perceived implication.

Or even worse, I see people denying that male privilege, straight privilege, or white privilege exist at all in American society (and other societies, as well). They say that one of the hallmarks of privilege is being able to deny that it's real...

The problem is, some people have this underlying, implicit belief that when the social definitions of whiteness, maleness, and straightness (to name just three good examples) are scrutinized, questioned, and criticized, they themselves are being criticized on an individual, personal basis for being white, straight, or male. In other words, these people attach their personal self-worth to the social categories that they are in. I really don't think that the intention of any of those who wish to call attention to the problems of privilege in society is to denigrate every man, every white person, or every straight person for being male, white, and/or straight. If that is the intention, that person isn't worth talking to.

We're trying to make the world a better place, but we can't just do it by singing "Kumbaya" together-at least, that isn't the first step, nor is it the second or third. The first step to dealing with privilege is recognizing that it exists (and I'm willing to bet that most of us here on DU have some form of privilege, relatively speaking, whether we admit it or not), acknowledging the impact it has in society, and learning from and listening to those who are most negatively affected by it. I readily admit that I myself have blind spots, that I myself do not know everything or even close to everything (an impossible task), and that I can learn from others, regardless of who they are.

This discussion, BTW, is very, very controversial...which is what makes it so important to have. Those who would do their best to shut down discussion, any discussion, would rather us not talk about this subject, because privileged (whoops-don't call them privileged!) people get "offended" and "outraged" by it. If DU doesn't talk about it, though-who will? Free Republic? Some "centrist" website? A Libertarian/Ron Paul forum? Please.

This discussion is by no means over. I, and many others here, will not stop bringing it up, because we are under no illusions that social, economic, and political privileges will just disappear overnight. The discussion is only the beginning.

[libodem]

1. I like kumbuya

Maybe singing off the same sheet of music wouldn't hurt. Why is everything and everyone so oppositional and defiant.

Everyone yells and nobody listens.

[freshwest]

13. People love drama, is why. I remember commenting on a forum once that if we didn't put our posts in

a way that disputed what the person above wrote, if we all agreed, the thread simply died.

Although I'm in favor of having a good time with good things, some are not willing to allow that in their presence. They hide their own pain and rage behind words of ideology, but aren't really communicating what they think they are.

In a way, being oppositional is a game to keep people talking. It's habitual and means little. Like getting angry, it's a choice. When you realize you have a choice, the game is over.

Some people get carried away with the habit. I put those who just want to fight, not exchange ideas or information, on Ignore. They lost the purpose of the interaction to their ego and they are not speaking at that level.

The viciousness is unnecessary, but most likely as someone here wrote, 'The rude person who just slammed you online isn't responding to you, but to the person who slammed or hurt them earlier.' I pondered on that and it helped me a lot.

We are carrying baggage with us wherever we go and have triggers that there is no way for others to know. We don't have telepathy to communicate to each other. Which may or may not be a good thing.

If we did have it, we might get enraged and kill someone or go catatonic from the shock. Or we might finally realize how much alike we are and never hate each other again.

JMHO.

[libodem]

37. We should all walk a mile in the other person's shoes

Before we judge each other. And all try to be understanding. Does seem like the more privledge the more defensiveness, though. Must cause a blind spot.

[LittleBlue]

2. Maybe they feel like you're implying

that their accomplishments are based on their race rather than their talent or hard work.

I could see how some people would take offense to that, even though I don't.

[Alenne]

3. Usually, there are some underlying racist, sexist or homophobic issues.

Unfortunately, most people with those issues will not admit to it. So, honest discussions about these things can't be had.

[leftyohiolib]

4. white privilege didnt help Abigail Fisher get in to college

[baldguy]

9. You mean it didn't help her to get into UT/Austin.

She did go to college - at LSU no less.

[The Straight Story]

5. I think, perhaps, the reason may be

Is that there are many layers of privilege such as your economic class, handicaps, etc, that also affect in a negative way everyone (or that person) - that is to say what privilege you may in one area is dampened by offsetting lack in other areas.

The other point attached to that is they may well have suffered from being held back over one of these things and overcame that to achieve something but are then either told or have inferred that they didn't overcome anything.

Looking at top down those with the most privilege are the wealthy. Income distribution, old boy networks, power over a great many things that affect us all (the 99%) - so for the rest of us we all struggle against the privilege of the few.

Privilege exists for many people based on many factors - is there an larger, institutional overtone? Yes - blacks, gays, women, etc have had a broader issue on a bigger basis based on laws, societal norms, etc and so are - in a general sense - farther back on the starting line and have had balls and chains added to slow them down.

But sometimes when you look down the track to those ahead they have a ball and chain as well slowing them down while the most privileged are zipping round and round the track in race cars drinking champagne and laughing at us for finding fault in all the others on the track. And the more we fight and accuse each other of being 'bad' or 'not caring about someone else on the track enough' we are not moving ahead because we are not joining together.

[Phillip McCleod]

6. when everyone feels like they're in prison..

..and have suffered, they become focused on their own suffering and the zero-sum mentality sets in.

but privilege and discrimination as you sooooo rightly point is intersectional. alice might be discriminated against at work for being a woman between 9-5, discriminated against for being black while she looks for another job between 5-7, treated like shit at home by a parent or loved one for being a lesbian between 7-9, and denied entry at a nightclub for being too poor between 9 and midnight.

or it might all come at poor alice at once.

alice isn't a far out example. alice is lots of americans and those were just a handful of the factors that can interplay. what if she was a muslim too? or had poor English language skills in Dallas? or was pregnant? or was paralyzed from the waste down?

no matter our own suffering we can't dismiss the suffering of others. we should let it make us care even more about correcting *all* those injustices, addressing each on necessary terms.

[freshwest]

14. Well said.

[dkf]

7. The question is what do you expect from a person you think is privileged.

That is why people get offended.

[Warpy]

8. Not a fucking clue in the world.

I'm your typical white bread suburban cracker. I've been poor and I've even lived on the street for a short time but the sense of entitlement to better was always there. It was weird. I've always been oddly aware of it, probably because my health has caused me to fall through the holes in our tattered system more than once.

That entitlement is reinforced all over the place simply because of the way I speak and present myself to the world, the way I was taught in infancy by suburban, educated parents.

Entitlement for a lot of people is the basic culture they were brought up in and they don't know it's there until it's threatened, often by people who are only pointing it out.

Conversely, people who are not entitled by birth to a certain place in the social order but who make a lot of money despite the odds against it often have a hard time if they try to move up a class or two. Since they don't present themselves the way entitled people do, they're not accepted no matter how ostentatious their lifestyle. The latter is why so many of them die broke.

Entitlement is a bizarre thing when you recognize your own, really difficult to escape even when you see it for what it is, hitting you with guilt if you don't live up to it.

It's a lot more comfortable if you don't recognize it and that's probably why people hate it when you point theirs out to them.

[Phillip McCleod]

18. yep. \n

[Evoman]

30. Perfectly said, Warpy.

[just1voice]

10. "If that is the intention, that person isn't worth talking to."

Exactly.

[cantbeserious]

11. Pointing Out The Privilege Leads To The Privilege Going Away - No One Likes Losing Privileges

eom

[valerief]

12. Some people are whiners. Others are paid to divert attention from issues, to reframe the issues. nt

[Starry Messenger]

15. It offends their sense of progressive enlightenment.

[YoungDemCA]

16. I initially read that as "progressive entitlement"

I guess there's that, too.

[Starry Messenger]

19. Both.

Too true.

[NutmegYankee]

17. You may be adding salt to a still fresh wound.

Before the era of corporate greed and globalization destroyed the working class, working class males in particular could raise their families and afford a nice home and even some luxuries like a boat. As the blue color jobs have dried up and all employment slid backwards in benefits, many former middle class people find themselves threading water compared to their old lives. Yes, white males like myself were entitled, and we had been on top so long that we got used to it. Now as the standard of living is crashing down and former middle class families slide out of it, the anxiety has grown. The social privilege and stature for many of these people has tumbled in the past decade.

When the discussion of privilege is brought up, these people who have seen such a giant slide in the last three decades, get outraged at what must be perceived by them as "piling on". Given our robber baron economy, the social fallout will get nothing but worse.

Don't take it personally.

[olddots]

20. we diagnose ,stereotype and cry out for identity .

Some of us in the peace movement feel like non confrontational passive liberalism has failed and them lambast our friends .

I have heard the term " limo liberal " used by liberals ...I've used it then been embarrassed .

[smirkymonkey]

21. K&R

[Major Nikon]

22. Pretty much at the same time it's used that way

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2024357

Just sayin'

[Number23]

23. K&R Thank you so much for asking this and pointing this out

Black people in 2013 have not got it great. But black people in 1913 had it much worse. That is not in any way minimizing what black people have to endure now, it is just simply the truth.

American women in 2013 have it pretty good but it could be alot better. There is still much work to do. But American women in 1913 had it much worse. And American women even in 1913 still had it a hell of alot better than alot of other women in alot of other places.

The fact that DU gets up in arms anytime any dares to discuss crimes/bad behavior that mostly affect whites is a prime example of that type of privilege.

I really think that for some, being forced to recognize their own privilege scares them half to death. Maybe it makes them wonder why they haven't been more successful?

[sibelian]

24. Privilege, my ass.

The whole concept can fuck off.

I'm gay. Apparently I can now get married in some places in the US. This is not a fucking "privilege", it's a fucking right and if it isn't a fucking "privilege" when I have it then it wasn't a fucking "privilege" when heterosexuals were allowed to do it before me because that doesn't make any fucking sense.

My rights are not privileges.

Heterosexuals were not above me before I was permitted to commit myself legally to the same mainstream social structures that support and maintain human relationships as them. They were within their rights.

I am not going to be told that the ordinary life I aspire to, the same ordinary life afforded to heteresexuals, is a privilege.

Do you get it? Do you understand that you are placing my rights further away from me when you cast them as a "privilege" when someone else has them? Do you understand that you are telling me to aim for a "privilege"?

I am SICK of this.

[Fumesucker]

27. Good point made well

[Robb]

34. This is the language problem also seen in "entitlements" perhaps.

The word can be defined as prerogative itself, as you're discussing, the act of giving that prerogative, or the state of having been afforded that prerogative -- as it's being used, I believe, by the OP.

But I agree, it is so charged by the things suggested by the first definition -- placing them in opposition to rights -- it's almost impossible to extricate, and does have the (presumably) unintended effect of casting rights as privileges.

[MattBaggins]

80. You are as clueless as your posts would indicate.

[lumberjack_jeff]

83. I need to think about this.

I consider an unexamined right to marry the person of my choosing, while that right is denied to someone else, a privilege I posess. When that unequal dichotomy of rights is fixed, privilege goes away.

I'm one-sixth as likely to be sent to jail as a black man. This is for a variety of reasons, obvious and subtle, that without scrutiny and reflection, constitute privilege. If those factors were mitigated, that privilege would go away.

It seems to me that ending the privilege and enforcing equal rights are thus the same thing.

I'm not understanding your point.

[eridani]

25. Privilege = lowest difficulty setting

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

Gaming analogy is very helpful, as it points out luck of the draw in many other factors that determine status--wealth, charisma, etc.

[Jamastiene]

26. Wow, that is an easy to understand explanation.

I wish more people would read that.

[StrayKat]

29. good link

A succinct explanation for those who want complex issues reduced to sound bytes. There may be an aha moment in there for one or two readers.

[Major Nikon]

31. It gets repeated around here at least once per month

So perhaps more than one or two. But yes, it's a great read for those who need answers that will fit in the space of a bumper sticker.

[StrayKat]

35. Hey, thanks

I'm relatively new here as you can see, so I'm not aware of some of the posting cycles.

[hfojvt]

46. and what did the OP ask?

"When did pointing out privilege become seen as a personal attack?"

With this analogy you have answered it.

Because it is certainly a personal attack to tell people WHO HAVE LOST that "gee whiz, you were playing at the lowest difficulty setting" (and you still lost.)

People who are standing at the bottom of a well in excrement up to their waist after trying all of their life until all their fingers are broken and scraped raw trying to no avail to climb out of that pit, and yet they are told by a bunch of much richer (and in their own minds "more enlightened&quot people how privileged they are. The "on average" B.S. doesn't mean jack sh*t to those who are living well below the frigging average.

[eridani]

49. The gaming analogy points out that difficulty setting is not the only influence on status

In gaming, as IRL, wealth and charisma are determined by rolling dice.

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. Um... Tuesday, three weeks ago.

I think.

[Major Nikon]

32. That long ago?

[kestrel91316]

33. I'm not going to join in with this deliberately divisive OP designed to divide us.

I'm just not in the mood.

And that's what I see it as.

[99Forever]

38. I agree.

I'm damn tired of the crabs in a bucket routine. The people actually screwing ALL of us don't give a damn if you call them "privileged" or not, as long they can keep us fighting amongst ourselves while they rob us blind.

[hfojvt]

47. those people are not the ones who are privileged

I am.

After all, I am a CIS hetero white male and a Protestant to boot.

[YoungDemCA]

41. Really?

"Deliberately divisive"? Did you even read my OP, or just the title?

How is pointing out the facts "deliberately divisive?" And thanks for proving my point about attempts to shut down discussion.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

36. Because it is nothing but racist filth. nt

[Kalidurga]

39. THEY "earned" everything they have, without any kind of preferential treatment....

The problem is they think they have earned everything. But, most likely a privileged person was raised in a middle class or more home. Never had to worry about getting enough to eat or having clothing or getting school supplies. This is probably a white heterosexual male who didn't have to work his way through college, because he either got scholarships or his parents paid. Or he didn't have to bolt from home so student loans were sufficient to live on while going to school. So, getting a degree was more of a given than a heroic effort. Or it could be a white heterosexual woman who realizes she will need an education if she doesn't want to become dependent on other people for her financial well being. She isn't quite as privileged as her male counterpart, but she is very attractive and knows how to use that to open doors, even though she has the education and talent but it doesn't hurt to have a nice face and be in shape and good fashion sense.

On the other hand anyone not born into a family that can support them from cradle to getting through college is going to have a hard time. It doesn't really matter if they are male or female. But, in any situation it is harder if you are a woman especially if you end up pregnant and decide to keep the baby if you haven't finished college. Then even if you do finish college it's still very difficult to get established from going from nothing to having enough to start a family. So, being poor basically means not having kids until you are in your 30's if you want to make sure you are stable first. So there is that biological privilege that has rarely been addressed. Yet a lot of people get on their high horse and denounce people that have kids before they are stable never mind that might not come until their early 30's at the soonest.

What must be really scary is for people who look like they are privileged and they pass for it for most of their life. But, they are in the closet on some issue. They might be a gay football player. Or they might be an atheist and they realize that they will lose some people in their network if they come out. Or she might be a lesbian and she realizes on some level she will lose the "protection" of the patriarchy if she is comes out. I am sure there are lot of other scenarios where people hide who they are because they are aware that being different may have an economic price tag, not to mention a social one.

I don't think anyone is unaware of privilege. Some might not connect the dots. But, the movie The Family Stone, Meredith explains it pretty well at an uncomfortable dinner experience. The conversation was about being gay and how it's harder to be gay than straight. She had a point about privilege. Of course she was seen as being a bigot for pointing that out. I think she was a bigot, but for other reasons than that. But, I digress. You could play this game at home would it be easier to be gay or straight? Is it easier to be male or female? Is it easier to be black or white? How much harder is it to be handicapped than able bodied? The list could go on and on, but in each case you can see how a person's privilege could build up and how another's could drop to the point that their challenges may prove to be overwhelming. But, don't tell that to the straight white males, it might hurt their feelings.

[upaloopa]

40. I think you post this to get someone

to fight with. These kinds of OPs are really a sort of flame bait.
I am old white male and you know damn well I know what my privileges were and are.
What you are doing is worse that the thing you are complaining about.

[Vinnie From Indy]

42. What I find fascinating about these white male privilege threads is

that there seems never to be a second act. There is never any ideas offered as to what a universal acceptance of white male privilege by white males would mean. If the vast majority of white men admit that there is such a thing, then what? What should these men do then? Give up their job? Lower their wages?

[treestar]

48. Why does anything have to be done?

It is a societal, historical observation. You may indeed have higher wages due to it. Shouldn't it be fair instead? But no one is saying you as an individual hand over your wages. But to work for justice.

[snooper2]

43. I moved from the shithole known as Missouri to Texas ask me anything

[Squinch]

59. What does fresh ham taste like? Will I like it?

[Gormy Cuss]

44. It's always been provocative by design.

Pointing out privilege is meant to make people confront uncomfortable truths. That's why it always induces defensive reactions from those who haven't yet recognized their own privilege.

"Privilege" is a word that also suggests a lot of power. People who have privilege in one domain may not have much power in other domains (economic, for example) and they don't FEEL terribly privileged.

[99Forever]

50. Thanks for the word salad.

It provides all of the insight I've come to associate with word salad too.

[Gormy Cuss]

52. What an insightful reply. eom

[99Forever]

53. You get what you give bud.

[Gormy Cuss]

54. Sorry, I 'gave' a reply to the OP.

You 'gave' a bizarre attack on my post without addressing the topic. Do you have anything to say about the OP topic?

[Squinch]

58. Your post made perfect sense to me.

[99Forever]

62. Yep..

... already said my piece about that. You do understand that this is a message board where people respond to that which they choose to, don't you?

[Gormy Cuss]

63. I understand that it's a limited focus discussion forum, not a Yahoo board.

[treestar]

45. There seem to be people who can't understand abstract concepts

And can only think everything is about themselves. A societal issue is just nothing to them unless they can personalize it. You see these defenses, but I'm white, male, or whatever, and poor me is never racist or sexist and not rich, etc. But that was never the point. It was only that white people in general have a traditional privilege in this country, which can hardly be denied; there were Jim Crow laws in living memory.

[hfojvt]

51. so they are idiots?

Well thank goodness there is no insult involved in the concept.

It seems pretty obvious that the notion of "white privilege" pretty obviously would apply to all white people. So why shouldn't they personalize it?

And as far as living memory goes, First, are we talking about something that exists now or something that existed in the past? And second, having just turned 51, I am a long way from being young and there is no memory in my life of Jim Crow.

[treestar]

66. because it is a social concept

Why does it have to be personalized? No one white person can be said to be responsible, it was all of society. History moves at a different rate, 50 years ago is not that long. We still live with concepts and ideas that were started up centuries ago.

[hfojvt]

82. oh come on

it is sold as a personal thing. Tell me THIS is not personal http://ted.coe.wayne.edu/ele3600/mcintosh.html

Old concepts get thrown out and replaced with new concepts all the time. We no longer claim that slavery exists in the US just because it once did.

[Vinnie From Indy]

57. Are white men the only ones that perpetuate white, male privilege?

eom

[treestar]

67. no

people don't like confrontations - everyone goes along with it until someone stirs things up - the lunch counter protests, Rosa Parks, etc. Or white women simply accept it because they can benefit from it, and don't try for themselves until some later point.

[Fumesucker]

72. That's not true, I have a family member who just *thrives* on confrontation

Brags constantly about her confrontations with one person or another and seeks out reasons to confront people and if she can't find a reason she'll make one up. Just a regular conversation with her feels like a confrontation because she wants to get close and stare you right in the eyes, it took me many years to get over my "flight or fight" reflex with her.

The people who love confrontation are more often than not the ones who end up in charge of things because those who dislike confrontation just let them do what they want because it will be non stop confrontation until they get their way and they enjoy what makes normal people really uncomfortable.

[treestar]

73. But would she do a political act that put herself at risk?

Probably not. She sounds like a petty tyrant of a family - that's not the same thing as challenging societal mores.

[Fumesucker]

74. I've seen her go up against the local politics when it's for her own benefit

There was a local development that was impacting her property and she raised holy hell with everyone and anyone she could, up to and including the chairman of the county commission.

I've even seen her stop and harangue people on the side of the road because she didn't like "the way they looked" and they were withing about half a mile of her home.

[aikoaiko]

55. You're pretty good at this. I hope you stick around and post more.

[bettyellen]

56. Too many people can't- and really don't want- to stop thinking about themselves. They are always #1

and it's how they frame everything in their own minds. Society matters not a whit except what it can do for them and theirs.


you're so right! pretty much every poster who denies the concept personalizes it even though that is completely off point.

[Squinch]

60. Interesting how just being asked the question is getting some posters very very riled.

I think for some people, they see the value of their privilege ending. We are moving closer to a place where those things that used to impart advantage (white, male, straight, protestant) are imparting less of a clear advantage. There is still plenty of advantage to being a straight white protestant male, and I don't even suggest that many of these guys weren't supportive of other groups pursuing equality.

But as other groups are gaining ground, that means there is less opportunity for the previously advantaged. It's very threatening. So, though full equality has not been gained by any of the other groups yet, some of the privileged people will feel, "whoa nelly, that's far enough." One way to stop the erosion of their advantage is to deny that the advantage exists. Or to say that they, too, are in a disadvantaged group.

Backlash comes from the same place.

[treestar]

68. It's interesting to see how they feel entitled to the inequality

They'll respond, well what do we do? Give up our jobs? Like we are imposing on them to just expect equality.

[Squinch]

69. Or my favorite:

"This doesn't exist. And if it did exist, I wouldn't be one of the ones doing it."

[The2ndWheel]

76. Same can be said for America in relation to the rest of the world

"I think for some people, they see the value of their privilege ending. We are moving closer to a place where those things that used to impart advantage (being in America) are imparting less of a clear advantage. There is still plenty of advantage to being an American, and I don't even suggest that many of these Americans weren't supportive of other groups pursuing equality.

But as other groups are gaining ground, that means there is less opportunity for the previously advantaged. It's very threatening. So, though full equality has not been gained by any of the other groups yet, some of the privileged people will feel, "whoa nelly, that's far enough." One way to stop the erosion of their advantage is to deny that the advantage exists. Or to say that they, too, are in a disadvantaged group.

Backlash comes from the same place."

There's no straight white male jobs, the same way there's no American jobs. They're just jobs.

[Squinch]

78. That's true. The "Greatest Nation" complacency is very threatened now, in a lot of areas.

Fox News is pretty much based on the backlash against that.

[liberal_at_heart]

61. When did we all of sudden feel the need to demonize everybody on the planet?

First many on this site are told they don't fit the definition of feminist. Now all white male Christians must take responsibility for the actions of all white male Christians? Let's just demonize everybody and get it over with.

[Squinch]

70. Is pointing out well documented privilege the same as demonizing?

[treestar]

71. Who said they were demonized or responsible individually?

No one is doing that. Why jump to that conclusion?

[uponit7771]

75. Pointing out the obvious is not demonizing people

[pauliedangerously]

64. Free Republic?

LOL...give that a try and let me know how it works out for ya!

[fredamae]

77. About the Same time

Paying Taxes became a "bad thing". I remember my dads outrage when "some" refused or dodged paying taxes. He called them "treasonous".....

[el_bryanto]

79. I can see this has already been debated in depth

But just to add my two cents - i'm not ssure that I agree with this passage.

The problem is, some people have this underlying, implicit belief that when the social definitions of whiteness, maleness, and straightness (to name just three good examples) are scrutinized, questioned, and criticized, they themselves are being criticized on an individual, personal basis for being white, straight, or male. In other words, these people attach their personal self-worth to the social categories that they are in.

I can say when I first heard this line of argument, which I've come to appreciate as being accurate, I reacted more as it related to me as a person rather than me as a set of racial/gender/sexual preference conditions. It's very easy to hear about White Male Privilege and assume that it means "You didn't really earn what you have. You only got that because you are white. You cheated." That's hard to take. And because White Male Privilege isn't usually open (no boss has come to me and said "I'm promoting you because you're the white guy&quot there's not a lot you can do about it, except within the realm of how you treat other people.

Which I suppose is the main point - if this generation, and the ones following, are more careful to treat women, people of color and other groups rigorously equally than the problem will eventually go away.

Bryant

[lumberjack_jeff]

81. I only get defensive when it's not true.

Straights like me definitely have privilege relative to gays and lesbians. GLBT people are discriminated against in family court, they are treated with fear and distrust (particularly around kids) and laws single them out for injustice.

In this country, whites like me definitely have privilege relative to people of color, particularly african-americans, hispanics and native americans. Non-whites live shorter lives, less money is spent on their health care, they are more likely to be victims of (and incarcerated for) crime, they are stuck in more dangerous jobs, they are more likely to drop out of school and lack college education and they are more likely to commit suicide.

Men?

In every single one of the above metrics of social health they are holding the shitty end of the stick, just like GLBT people and ethnic minorities.

So, I disagree.

It's an important discussion to have because "male privilege" is bullshit.

[Bucky]

84. When you tell a below average income white person he's privileged, you sound silly.

Class is as big a deal in discrimination as race or religion is. When you're poor, you're trapped in this country. Telling someone who is economically trapped and unable to dig himself out from debt, collection agencies, banking abuses, and cycles of bad credit that he is in a position of privilege is not only wrong, it's insensitive.