What rank & file police officers think about gun-control

[Lurks Often]

Executive summary here: http://www.policeone.com/police-products/firearms/articles/6188462-policeones-2013-gun-policy-law-enforcement-survey-results-executive-summary/

Entire survey (17 page PDF): http://ddq74coujkv1i.cloudfront.net/p1_gunsurveysummary_2013.pdf

[haele]

1. Hmmm - the survey was completed from a police products commercial website.

And purports to be a survey of "authenticated" LEOs? Without identifying how they authenticated it - the first question was a basic "are you now or have you formerly been a police officer" and the second was on how large your unit was.

Reading through survey was rather like surveying a Guns and Ammo magazine comments page when gun control subject comes up.

The problem with a commercial survey like this is that the controls on that survey are not actually sufficient to make up for the amount of website surfers who are wanna-bes who would be drooling to participate in such a survey - including one of the guys at work who goes on PoliceOne.com at lunch quite a few times to check out the latest and greatest that he'll be on the lookout for at the next "Crossroads of the West" gun show discount bin.
Whom I just asked if he had seen the survey on that site.

BTW, he had filled out that survey as soon as he saw it, pretended to be a neighbor of his he hangs out with who works for the Sheriff's department. He said he was sure he answered the same way his friend would have, so it was no big deal.

I'd put much more stock an anonymous survey at the station houses with tighter controls over this.

Haele

[Lurks Often]

2. It matches other surveys

I have seen in the past in the overall trend is that rank & file police officers tend to be pro-gun and not view citizens as a threat to them.

And we wouldn't want to judge DU by the ads that pop up here now would we?

[bossy22]

8. The methodology is not concrete

[Gormy Cuss]

46. That's an understatement.

It was self-selection based on promotional emails. The methodology section reports a 91.8% completion as if it's important but what they're highlighting is the percentage of respondents who completed the survey after the screener question. That's meaningless in terms of understanding the representativeness of the responses.
quote:

The survey link was posted live on March 4th and responses were collected through Thursday, March 13th. In all, 15,595 users completed the survey among the 16,985 who began it, a 91.8 percent completion percentage – a highly meaningful level of response both in regard to PoliceOne’s audience as well as the U.S. law enforcement population in general.

No, folks. That 91.8% means only that there was ~ 8% breakoff rate. There's nothing "highly meaningful" about that other than those who chose themselves as respondents were motivated enough to finish it.

They also have general language about the respondents corresponding to the geography and rank of the LEO community but they don't say anything about WHAT geography they're referencing (e.g. states? municipalities? n of departments? some other geography?) and why that was a proper metric.

[Hoyt]

3. Sorry, bunch of gun porn at link.

[slackmaster]

4. No surprises for me. I know a few police officers. They're level-headed, intelligent people who...

...value liberty.

[Hoyt]

5. Then, why to gungeoneers feel they need to arm up to match police?

And most police know this pollvis biased and run by gun profiteers.

[bossy22]

7. Do you have evidence to support that assertion?

[Hoyt]

9. Which one? First one - go read gungeon, I think you are familiar with it.

Second assertion - look at the site that conducted poll. It's run by gun profiteers.

[bossy22]

11. I looked at the site- It is a police industry forum

If you are assuming that it is run by gun profiteers since "gun porn" is all over the site, I hope you realize that one of the key tools cops use are guns- why would you be surprised that an industry specific forum would have ads for tools used in that industry? A firefighter forum has many ads for Axes, helmets, etc....

the methodology leaves alot to be questioned but discounting the poll because it is done by a website that has gun ads on it doesnt really pass muster

[Hoyt]

13. And 80% admit to toting in public when off duty. It's biased in many aspects.

[NutmegYankee]

17. Many depts require their officers to carry when off duty.

[Hoyt]

24. Yes. Another example of bias.

[loli phabay]

67. not bias, its an officer safety issue founded on past experience

[Lizzie Poppet]

10. Prove it.

List the specific methodological problems...

This will, of course, not happen any time prior to the heat death of the universe.

[slackmaster]

62. Liberty = freedom of choice

If someone chooses to own a gun, that's his or her business.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

6. Because it justifies their over-the-top militarization. nt

[rmax]

12. The ones I know (several) don't like being out gunned by nuts.

They aren't even allowed to have the weaponry their "opponents" can buy at any gun shop. They've got tazers (WOOP-DEE-DO) but they're out-powered in rifles, assault weapons, and even handguns. It just isn't fair.

Why is it that our police officers are restricted in weaponry that any moron with a few hundred dollars in cash can buy from a dealer? Something is seriuosly wrong with that system. Seriously wrong.

[Lizzie Poppet]

14. Where on earth do you live?!?

Around here (and in pretty much every city I've heard of these days) cops carry high-capacity semi-automatic pistols and generally have more firepower in the cruiser (often an AR-15 or a 12ga shotgun). Do you live in a place where the "bad guys" have more firepower than that...or in some 50's timewarp location where the cops carry .38 Special revolvers?

[rmax]

16. Well, it's kind of a mix. Local laws restrict the cops and the "villians" have whatever.

That's pretty much the case throughout the country. I know most have 12ga shotguns, but I don't know of any with autos. And a .38 is nothing up against a 45 Magnum, also available at your local gun shop, probably with a discount if you buy 40 rounds.

The Glock's are good, but not that practical in a fight. They don't fire fast enough and frankly aren't all that accurate, and they tend to jam. I've got a 20ga and that's a pretty nasty weapon, but only 2 cartridges to a clip. I've never had to fire it, fortunately.

And yes, in pretty much any city, the cops are outpowered by weaponry that is legal (THANK YOU NRA) for the public, but NOT legal for officials. So yes, they are outpowered, at a disadvantage, and get killed by psycopaths who don't mind to die.

The legality of things is completely opposite of what it should be. I'm not advocating a police state, but I would like our uniformed officers to at least have parity with what they are up against.

[Lizzie Poppet]

18. Here in Portland...

...the cops carry Glocks. They're not my favorite handguns, either (I don't like the ergonomics or the trigger feel), but they can easily fire as fast as you can pull the trigger...like any other semi-auto. They also have an AR-15 or a 6-round 12-gauge pump shotgun locked in the cruiser. That's actually usually a lot more firepower than the average street criminal (whose first priority is concealability).

To the best of my knowledge (which is obviously imperfect!), this is pretty standard for most US police departments.

[rmax]

20. They need those in Portland? Seriously? Busting up pot farms or something?

I thought Portland had a really low crime rate, correct me if I'm wrong (weed excluded).

And Glocks have really bad action, accuracy, and reliability. Why would they carry those? Shouldn't they have something better like a S&W or Remmington?

[Lizzie Poppet]

21. Seems a bit much to me, too.

I mean, we have a pretty darn low violent crime rate here (for a big-ish city, anyway). Maybe it's a "boys and their toys" thing...but three of the four P-Town cops I actually know personally are women. So I can't really figure it out, either...

As I said, not a Glock fan, either. Don't like the shape of the grips and frame, don't like the trigger, don't like the balance...

[rmax]

23. Glocks don't have balance - hence the lack of accuracy. They're throw-aways.

[jmg257]

61. 'Remmington' making a lot of handguns now, are they?

How is their new 1911 anyway?

And apparently you know VERY little about Glocks, too.

[Bay Boy]

63. I don't think Remington...

...makes any pistols, at least not anymore.

[cherokeeprogressive]

29. Glocks jam?

I guess mine didn't get that memo.

[cherokeeprogressive]

31. Well over a thousand rounds with my Model 19. No jams.

A couple of stovepipes is all.

[sarisataka]

33. I'm throwing the BS challenge flag

I do not know of anyplace where sworn LEOs are limited to tasers.

I happened to be in a sporting store that sells guns and joined a conversation with a county sheriff shopping in uniform. He was questioned about looking at an AR, that shouldn't he look at a 12 gauge. His statement was that very few of [Mpls/St Paul] metro cops had shotguns anymore. His estimate was that 80-90% have switched to rifles instead of shotguns. Mainly to be able to fire more precise shots rather than fill a street with buckshot.

.38 is very rare on LEOs these days. 9mm and .40 are the top dogs. 45 magnum is an unusual round. There are perhaps two currently manufactured guns that will chamber it.

The Glock's are good, but not that practical in a fight.

I am a dyed in the wool Glock hater but this statement is laughable. There is a reason Glock is the most popular gun used in LE in the US and many other countries. They are accurate, reliable and as fast as any other semi auto.

20ga with a two round clip- Double Barrel?

[In_The_Wind]

36. Holy Crap!

[In_The_Wind]

40. Do you really feel the need for that many weapons?

[sarisataka]

42. Thanks for answering the challenge

I forgot some bolt SGs have one and a backup. Sounds good for your purposes though I would suggest a little practice. Shotguns must be aimed like rifles, they are more forgiving of small errors. Even a 20ga has noticeable recoil. Best to be ready if a skunk or alien drops by. If a zombie, go for the head shot.

Knives are underestimated weapons. I worry more about a person skilled with blades than most who carry guns. (We're cool, right? )

I like your friends' taste. Personally SIG is my favorite. I dislike Glock for the ergonomics, it just does sit in my hand well. Despite my dislike, I have to give them credit, they are effective. You are correct about the Glock vs xxx or Ford vs Chevy, it is nearly cult like in support or hatred. If they would only realize Dodge is the way to go

Love that movie. I like the simple aesthetic and efficiency of modern weapons, due to a military background. As I age however, I am finding a greater appreciation of the craftsmanship in older guns. Outside of one pistol, I have traded my plastic for wood. My small collection is almost all made prior to 1950.

[rrneck]

34. I don't understand your post.

Are you saying the police carry Glock revolvers?

If an officer has an AR15 or a 12ga shotgun he is simply not "outgunned" by the bad guys. One is a semiautomatic rifle, the other is a shotgun. No different from anybody else. And of course, when a police officer calls for help, everybody shows up. He can even call for backup before almost any situation.

[In_The_Wind]

37. See post # 35!

[rrneck]

41. Well then, lets have a look...

Response to rmax (Reply #16)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 08:43 AM

Star Member rrneck (13,312 posts)
34. I don't understand your post.


Response to sarisataka (Reply #33)

Tue Apr 9, 2013, 09:05 AM

rmax (91 posts)
35. Single barrel 20ga - old Sears model, probably a Remington, not sure.

---------------------------------


I guess you can jump through a rip in the fabric of time. Good for you. Unfortunately, it doesn't help your reading comprehension. Both posts are just as incoherent as yours.

But why don't you answer the question? That will involve more than a smiley.

[In_The_Wind]

43. SorryI was not clear. I disagree with everything that was in the PPRed post.

[jmg257]

59. You seem very confused about numerous weapons, and police access to them.

You may want to provide more info on your insight into:

45 magnums
Glocks not accurate
Glocks jam
2-clip 20ga shotguns
Police outpowered pretty much everywhere

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

15. Without crosstabs, this data is worthless...

And it may be worthless WITH crosstabs.

Let me call your attention to Question 12, in which 83.9% of respondents self-identify as serving in jurisdictions with "Average" or "Small" levels of gun crime. What I take from that response is that the overwhelming majority of respondents are from suburban or rural communities with little to no first hand police experience with regard to gun crime. In other words, 83% of the respondents police communities that contain less than 25% of the population and even less of the total violent crime.

So if you're a sheriff's deputy from Mayberry, you probably think it's just a problem with bad parenting and a good stretch in the joint will work wonders. You probably also think that Jesus rode dinosaurs, but that's beside the point.

If you work day in and day out around the results of gun crime, your attitude is probably remarkably different.

I say "probably" because I have no data to show otherwise, and this poll doesn't help.

[Lurks Often]

26. You may want to extend that thought process to it's conclusion:

Last edited Tue Apr 9, 2013, 12:40 PM - Edit history (1)

Since the highest crime areas are in the major cities, whose police departments have a history of being less the sterling examples of law enforcement (LAPD, NYPD, New Orleans PD), then having the law enforcement agencies most prone to abusing innocent citizens be in favor of gun control does not make me feel better.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if the responses were mostly from suburban & rural areas

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

44. Wow. That's an impressive leap into illogic

You're suggesting that abusive police officers are the cause of drive-by shootings?

You know what? Big cities also have more stock brokers in large cities than in rural areas. Maybe they cause it. You can also find more sushi restaurants -- that's GOT TO BE an underlying cause of violent crime.

[Lurks Often]

45. Where did you get that from?

The underlying causes of crime are mostly due to social and economic pressures.

I have concerns that those police most likely to be in favor of gun control are those in large city police departments, many of which have a reputation for a lack of consideration of our rights.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

48. You must not live in a rural area...

Some of the most vicious punks I've ever met have been employed in small town law enforcement. For every Andy Griffith there's a Bull Conner.

Beyond that, the nation that there's some correlation between gun control and police brutality is more than just a little absurd.

[Lurks Often]

50. There are bad cops everywhere and

I am all in favor of prosecuting them. I didn't say that gun control causes police brutality.

I said that those police most likely to be in favor of gun control are those in large city police departments and those are the departments that have been known for violating peoples rights.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

64. OK

"I didn't say that gun control causes police brutality" but in the next sentence, you imply there is a link between police who favor gun control and police who have been known to violate people's rights.

You ARE, in fact, asserting a causal link between gun control and police brutality, whether you understand that or not.

If bad cops are everywhere, then there is no link between whether a police officer favors gun control and the likelihood of his committing an act of police brutality. If bad cops are everywhere, then the respondants who favor gun control would be spread evenly among urban and rural law enforcement officers.

[Lurks Often]

65. I think you are seeing a causal link where none exists

Being in favor of gun control does not cause police brutality and police brutality does not come from believing in gun control. What both indicate is an authoritarian belief that they are better then the people they are supposed to be serving and protecting. A belief that seems more pronounced in large police departments, although I will grant that might be a perception caused by the national media attention that large police departments receive when they do something wrong. Coverage a bad cop in a town of 5000, 50 miles from anywhere, won't receive.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

68. I see the link because you keep insisting that it's there....

"What both indicate is an authoritarian belief that they are better then the people they are supposed to be serving and protecting."

Tell you what. You stop saying shit like that, and I'll stop pointing out that you're saying shit like that. Fair enough?

And the point you make is, of course, as colossally stupid as it is insulting. Being in favor of gun control doesn't not mean that a police officer believes that he is "better" than the people he is supposed to be serving. It may mean that he'd like to go home after his shift without getting shot. It may mean that he's tired of mopping up the blood from drive-by shootings. It may mean that he dreads once again knocking on the door of two soon-to-be-distraught parents and telling them their kid has just been shot to death.

It could be any one of those things, right? Right?

But at least you're admitting that your premise is flawed -- that the belief that big city police are more brutal than small town police "might be a perception caused by the national media." You think?!

So to summarize, your opinion is based on one stupid and insulting assumption as to the motivations of urban police officers, and a premise that you now admit is the result of media manipulation.

Thanks for joining in the conversation.

[Lurks Often]

69. No, my opinion is based on seeing these patterns

for years and it seems to be getting worse not better.

I also see we aren't going to agree.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

70. He said, back-pedaling all the way...

You say in one post that it's media distortion and then in the next post that you see "these patterns" that are getting worse and not better.

So is the reality getting worse or is your susceptibility to being duped by the media getting worse?

It's an important distinction.

I might agree with you if you could possibly hold consistent opinion for more than 2-3 posts.

[Gormy Cuss]

47. Even with crosstabs it's probably meaningless.

It's a convenience sample and their methodology report is amateurish and vague.

[Robb]

19. This sample is apparently full of assholes and psychopaths.

• 71 percent support law enforcement leaders who have publicly refused to enforce more restrictive gun laws within their jurisdictions

Lots of birthers on that site, too. Buddies of yours?

[Lurks Often]

25. So what you are saying that

since you are unable to come up with any facts that contradict the author's findings, you've decided to make rude remarks instead. Typical of those who are in favor of gun control, unable to argue logically or come up with facts to disprove a statement, they fall back on insulting the people they disagree with.

[Robb]

27. I'll take that as a "yes."

[Lurks Often]

28. I'm glad we agree that your post is

typical of those who are in favor of gun control, unable to argue logically or come up with facts to disprove a statement, they fall back on insulting the people they disagree with.

[AgainsttheCrown]

22. Of those that take an interest in politics...most rank/file police officers are conservative morons.

PoliceOne Gun Control Survey: Are legally-armed citizens the best solution to gun violence?

A full 86 percent feel that casualties would have been reduced or avoided in recent tragedies like Newtown and Aurora if a legally-armed citizen was present (casualties reduced: 80 percent; avoided altogether: 60 percent).

Armed citizens to save the day!?

Fuck that...I'm not impressed with what some cops would do in situations like that. A few years ago I established a perimeter on possible burglary in progress before we made entry in to the residence. I remember back tracking and coming around a corner to the barrel of a Sig Sauer P220. An officer (who I positioned) pointed a gun in my face and had such a scared look on his face that all I could do was put my head down and wait for death to come. Fortunately he slowly turned the weapon away and I managed to keep all my body parts. But if I moved I'm sure I wouldn't be here today.

Then there is that NYPD times square incident...the LAPD Gorner misidentification...all the cops on my facebook who are Sandy Hook truthers...

Who cares what cops think about the reduction of gun violence if they believe propaganda?

[99Forever]

49. I need a shower...

... after viewing that steaming pile. Cripes, who do you Delicate flowers think you are fooling anyway?

It's like dealing Teabaggers over taxes.

Gun culture is a mental illness.

[Lurks Often]

51. Your overwhelming display of logic has won me over!!!!!

or not.

[99Forever]

52. Why would I care what you think?

[Lurks Often]

60. So you have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion

Typical of those who are in favor of gun control, unable to argue logically or come up with facts to disprove a statement, they fall back on insulting the people they disagree with. Just another firearm reality denier with a control complex.

[Lizzie Poppet]

53. Feel better now?

For some, a nice rant full of personal insult and utterly lacking in any real substance can at least temporarily assuage the pain and anger. Let the hate flow through you, young Jedi!

[99Forever]

55. Ahhh gee...

... another butthurt Delicate Flower.

Gun culture is a mental illness.

[Lizzie Poppet]

56. Oooh! Bolded and underlined means it's MORE TRUER!!

But you forgot the all-caps...

Free clue: you're mistaking for "butthurt" what is obviously multiple posters' amused contempt for your staggering lack of substance, sparky. Back to Troll Academy with you.

[99Forever]

57. Get it straight lady..

... that's numerous Delicate Flowers, sparky.

Gun culture is a mental illness.

[Lizzie Poppet]

58. Continuing to employ an insulting term isn't "getting it straight."

It's reinforcing failure and tacitly admitting that you haven't even a hint of a substantive argument. But hey, some folks feel safe and comfortable in the intellectual kiddie pool.

Enjoy your swim.

[Union Scribe]

66. The people at police one are horrible.

I've sometimes seen discussions over there linked to, in re police abuse cases. If even 10% of the posters there are real cops, the attitudes towards citizens is enough to make you distrust cops (if you didn't have enough evidence before, anyway).