My bad - I thought this was the DEMOCRATIC

[jazzimov]

This discussion thread was locked as off-topic by Turborama (a host of the General Discussion forum).

Underground.

According to the TOS, we're supposed to support Democratic candidates.

But it seems that the whole purpose is to PILE ON any Democratic elected official who doesn't fit our preconceived ideology of "perfection". We are applying purity tests to our candidates, which is what the Teabaggers did.

We are a "big tent" party, which means that we accept and at least TRY to understand the other persons POV.

Yet, I constantly see people who are totally intolerant of other views - thinking that they are "absolutely right" even though they are just as human and prone to error. yes, that's right - I called many of you arrogant. Because you are.

The thing that I love most about the Progressive POV is that it is tolerant of other views. Which is the opposite of what I have seen in so many posts here.

I've seen people use "Blue Dog", "DLC", "Centrist" etc as insults - even though the people they threw these epithets at did not actually show any of those attributes. But, the point is, they are still Democrats and still deserve our respect. To use these pigeon-holes only denigrates the person using them.

Unfortunately, there are many people who "troll" sites like this. They want to "spin" information in order to turn people away from voting in a certain way.

I'm not saying that everyone who criticizes Democrats are trolls. But, each of us should be aware that there are those who troll websites such as ours to try and convert voters. There are some who simply jump to conclusions.

Don't listen to those who simply attack others in order to get you to either not vote or vote for their candidate.

Inform yourself.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

1. We know. We've been here longer than you. Do you have anything to contribute?

[RC]

3. Propaganda.

I'm thinking he is either one of 'them' of has a lot to learn about who's really what.

[jazzimov]

7. You've been POSTING longer than I.

I've actually been lurking since 2003.

And, yes, I think I have much to contribute.

[tkmorris]

9. You lurked for 10 years without a word?

And now, suddenly, you are chastising everyone in sight? Does not compute.

[elleng]

16. 'Everyone in sight?'

[tkmorris]

19. His OP was critical of DU. Itself.

Now perhaps what he really means is the subset of DUers that believe cutting future SS benefits through implementing chained CPI is a profoundly stupid idea, but he didn't explicitly say so. And even if he had I would still take issue with it.

[elleng]

21. He said this:

'According to the TOS, we're supposed to support Democratic candidates.

But it seems that the whole purpose is to PILE ON any Democratic elected official who doesn't fit our preconceived ideology of "perfection". We are applying purity tests to our candidates, which is what the Teabaggers did.

We are a "big tent" party, which means that we accept and at least TRY to understand the other persons POV.'

[dlwickham]

52. you're funny

this site is certainly not a big tent site

[elleng]

55. I'm 'funny?'

What is funny about quoting OP to challenge your premise?

[jazzimov]

58. No, it's not. But shouldn't it be?

[boguspotus]

22. Sorry,

But I've been lurking here without a word more than anyone. I've been here since 2001. I'm pretty shy, but I decided I'm going to post more just recently too. Sorry, some person's perceived weirdness can be another person's normal. It doesn't have to compute.

[elleng]

32. Right. Thanks.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

42. I lurked a lot here since the invasion of Iraq and did so

nearly every single day for years before I finally signed up.

And almost as soon as I did I said the wrong thing and got piled on, the EXACT thing I feared from signing up in the first place.

Notice that since joining I have yet to start an OP.

[HangOnKids]

44. Because nothing happened in 10 years worth posting on

I guess the chastising tea was just steeping all that time.

[jazzimov]

60. What is your point?

Typical - if you can't refute the message, attack the messenger.

[Scootaloo]

2. So when democratic politicians fail to uphold basic democratic ideals, what then?

I'm not one to go on a wild, arms-flailing attack against Obama or the like... but of late he's been leaving me scratching my head. I'll vote for "better than the other guy," But I'd much rather vote for "the ones that shares my ideals" y'know?

[rsmith6621]

8. Agree

.... Our local party is thinking of adding a few non negotiable issues to our candidate endorsement process and social security is one of those things.

There just are some things that we need to hold sacred and untouchable politics or not.

[tsuki]

35. Agreed. I support policy. I do not worship. nt

[tkmorris]

4. I support Democratic IDEALS

Nobody automatically gets my support simply by pulling on a jersey of the right color. Maybe you see things differently.

[Marr]

5. Anyone defending SS cuts is a DLC/Third Way/New Democrat/Neoliberal.

Sorry, it's true. And if the Democratic Party means anything at all, it is defending the social safety net.

It's not just a label you can affix to anything. I know that might seem surprising, given the last few years-- but believe me, once the elections roll around, you'll find that it's true.

[forestpath]

6. +1

[jazzimov]

10. Really? Are you sure? And are what you call "cuts"

really "cuts"?

And if you say "Anyone defending SS cuts is a DLC/Third Way/New Democrat/Neoliberal" you really don't understand any position that you just denigrated.

You should inform yourself. You tend to relegate all positions that you disagree with into one packet without trying to understand any of their individual positions.

[elleng]

15. Right. Thanks.

[HangOnKids]

48. More chastising?

People here are quite informed and understand a great deal. Exactly who are you to cast aspersions on this board and its long time members?

typo

[SidDithers]

56. It's funny when you lecture other posters about inappropriate board behaviour...nt

Sid

[magellan]

13. +1

[notadmblnd]

27. I don't think anyone here has advocated for SS cuts

However there have been some posts where more reasonable people have attempted to explain the proposal and discuss the Presidents possible strategy behind it. But instead, real discussion has been quelled by people running around here with their hair on fire who have read things into those posts that just are not there. They've accused people of defending the cuts and have gone off on a rampage swearing, calling people names, berating the President and in general, putting on an awesome display of wailing and gnashing of the teeth.

It leaves me wondering what they could accomplish if that put all the energy of their fear and anger into actually doing something about it (calling their congressman, the White House and their friends to encouraging them to make the calls) instead of wailing, gnashing and bulling people anonymously on a discussion forum because they don't like what they THINK they've read?

[Mnemosyne]

11. It is President Obama now, not Candidate Obama. Policies matter and we will not shut up. nt

[Marrah_G]

12. You know what is AWESOME about DU?

The ignore feature...LOVE IT!!!

[elleng]

14. Thanks, jazzimov, and welcome.

Bucky posted this. May be of interest to some:

'You should learn a lot about Charles-Louis, Baron de Brede et Montesquieu (Chucky for short). In your civics class, he's taught as the guy who identified the three basic functions of government--legislative, executive, and judicial--and who had a powerful pull on the Founding Conventioneers in Philadelphia in 1787. He's more important for the Constitution than John Locke is. Locke more inspired the Declaration, but it was Chucky who inspired both the three branches scheme and laid the philosophical groundwork for maintaining a federal, instead of a national, structure to the Old 13. However Chucky had some other, more pertinent observations about how men & their governments interact. He identified the governments of the world as falling into three types: Republic, Monarchy, or Despotism. Yes, he always thought in threes. Like any Frenchman, he spent a good deal of time worrying about how size matters. And Chucky didn't think a country, like ours, nearly the size of a continent was quite suited for republicanism. There are dangerous signs he was rights.

In his view, a true republic requires a public and culture that has a love of virtue, that is, a society in which people (particularly leaders) put their love of country and the welfare of the community above their own personal needs. Think about everything we revere George Washington for and now compare it to, say, Donald Trump, Mitch McConnell, that clown from Alaska, or Rand Paul. But this character must exist among a nation as well. When a people lose virtuousness, they begin to lose their republican form of government. We pause now for this important commercial message.'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2639097

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

17. Dude, you've used about 6 months worth of posts and contributed nothing...

[jazzimov]

25. In whose opinion?

Some might say that I've contributed a lot.

In YOUR eyes, maybe it's nothing.

According to your purity test, I'm nothing. According to my purity test, you're nothing.

That's a basic problem with purity tests.

[HangOnKids]

54. What is this purity test you speak of?

Nobody has mentioned any such thing but you. What exactly are you saying here?

[slipslidingaway]

18. "Inform yourself." Many of us have informed ourselves. nt

[MrSlayer]

20. Democrats that support Republican ideas deserve nothing but scorn.

I'm sorry but your post is bullshit. Any Democrat that supports ending Social Security deserves nothing but the vitriol he/she gets. I'm in no way obligated to support or respect anyone simply because they have a "D" after their name, which is what you seem to be implying. If you're a corporate sellout, blue dog piece of shit, I have every right to be against that.

People like you are the reason we keep moving further to the right because you won't take a stand and say "Enough!" Compromising with the right only moves us to the right.

It doesn't really matter, there is no one with any power that's on our side anyway. The cause is lost. So you can go on cheering the centrists that have sold us out in the name of big tents and open mindedness while they starve us all.

Sometimes you have to a hard line stand on principle. If drawing the line on earned benefits and labor rights makes me "like a teabagger" then pass the fucking minute man costume. I'm not willing to negotiate the well being of the elderly and poor so some scumbag richie rich asshole can keep more of his ill gotten blood money. That's exactly what many of the people that we're supposed to support because they're "Democrats" want to do.

I'm not a troll nor should my support of basic FDR style Democratic beliefs be compared to teabagger extremists. These should be our STANDARD positions. People like Grayson and Kucinich should be standard, middle of the road Democrats.

This party is so far off the rails its on Mars.

[jazzimov]

26. When did any Democrat support ENDING SS?

Before we go any farther, you need to explain that.

it sounds like you've been deceived.

[MrSlayer]

43. This chained CPI bullshit is the first step.

Anyone that supports it is supporting the end of the program. I know it, you know it, they know it. We need to face the facts here, the owners are coming for the public money and these sellout scummers in Congress are going to give it to them no matter what we say.

[Luminous Animal]

23. There are no Democratic candidates because it is not election season.

We are permitted to criticize Democratic representatives outside of the election season.

Progressives (a totally meaningless term) will tolerate other views being expressed, but they will argue, fight, and campaign against those views when the legislative outcome will cause harm to 99%

[Zorra]

24. Well, ya know, if we're not conservative enough for you...no one is forcing you to stay.

"Democrats moving to the middle is a double disaster that alienates the party's progressive base while simultaneously sending a message to swing voters that the other side is where the good ideas are. It unconscously locks in the notion that the other side's positions are worth moving toward, while your side's positions are the ones to move away from. Plus every time you move to the center, the right just moves further to the right." ~ George Lakoff

90% of the trolls here are Third Way trolls, advocating for garbage like cutting social security and other corporatist policies.

[jazzimov]

31. "90% of the trolls here are Third Way trolls,"

Well, I have to disagree. First of all, you don't know who is a troll and who isn't. I don't either, but I am aware that trolls exist and many of them infiltrate influential sites like this.

Further, what exactly is a "Third Way" position? Apparently, it's one that disagrees with your own position.

[MrSlayer]

46. You can't be this naive.

A third way position is a corporate friendly, Reaganite position that favors the few over the many. Think NAFTA, for example.

[frazzled]

28. Well, some people don't put on their thinking caps all the time

I got a response the other day that said my post should be on "Free Republic"--a comment that would have been removed here in the old days (not to mention it was clearly ridiculous). Since the person obviously had no idea whatsoever what I was even talking about, I was tempted to respond that their post might better belong on Ding Dong School. But that kind of childish retort only ups the foolishness factor. So I ignored it and moved on.

Mostly I find that people doing that kind of name calling are not the deepest analysts. I've learned to stay away (though I'm sometimes dragged into the fray). But mostly it's not worth the effort to go so far as to post facts or links to actual documents ... they never get read. I chill out by reminding myself that these kinds of posts are very unrepresentative, and so the best idea is to ignore them.

[jazzimov]

36. That is so sad. This site used to be about

intelligent discourse.

I would love to see it that way again. Without the insults.

What's with all the insults?
If someone has a legitimate case, they should be able to present it. RWer's result to insults, because they have nothing else.

[jazzimov]

38. Thank you for that informed, reasonable response.

I'm glad that you were able to demonstrate your mental agility to all.

[NYC_SKP]

47. Jizzimov and Discharge. Someone needs to seek medical attention. nt

[HangOnKids]

59. Ok That Just Made Me Laugh So Hard The Cat Jumped

I am assuming that Discharge is the poster known as name removed, the one jazzi is finding comfort in. One of the many people defending his position here. Oh wait, name removed is the only one. Sorry. Carry one with your funny self.

[winter is coming]

30. Inform yourself of this:

From our TOS, which I believe every DUer should read at least once:

During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them.

[sabrina 1]

33. It is a Democratic forum, which is why you see people standing up for Democratic Policies

and great Democratic Programs like SS.

It is also why see so much opposition to anyone who tries to destroy Democratic Programs. If you are a Democrat, then I'm sure you too are angry when you see anyone trying to destroy SS, letting Wall St criminals off the hook, blaming SS for the Deficit when everyone knows this is a Republican lie.

Relax, read and you will be encouraged to find that there are still Democrats willing to fight to protect Democratic Ideals against those who oppose them.

[markpkessinger]

34. I am a Democrat because I believe in the ideals the party has historically stood for...

I never have been, and never will be, willing to place loyalty to any particular candidate above loyalty to those ideals.

[840high]

40. Thank you.

[MannyGoldstein]

37. Given that an admin posted this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017110752

I think you may be having a zeitgeist malfunction.

[jazzimov]

45. Is this Manny, or 3rd Way Manny?

I have to say, I love the way that you pigeon-hole ideas into your own concepts without actually considering them.

[Auntie Bush]

39. Also, some people with high post count can also be trolls.

[jazzimov]

49. Absolutely!

They up their post count usually in the lounge with non-committal posts, and then denigrate others with low post counts. This is a long-established technique which has been documented and "bragged about" over and over again at other websites.

[jazzimov]

51. IIRC, the guy who stalled funds for Andy Stephenson's operation

bragged about being a high-posting member of DU.

Maybe he wasn't directly responsible for Andy's death - but if Andy had his operation when he was supposed to, he might still be alive.

I will never forgive that asshole, whoever he may be.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

50. Unrec for use of "my bad."

And you don't get to dictate who is or isn't worthy of my respect. Thanks for the lecture, though!

[mick063]

53. This isn't rooting for your favorite football team.

This is about undoing terrible harm that has been done by both Democrats and Republicans alike.

This is about ideology and what your party and politicians represent. If either party pursues an agenda that benefits a very small group at the expense of almost everyone else, than neither party represents me.

But to really get to the point, I am not abandoning the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party has abandoned me. My mission runs deeper than just being a Democrat. My mission is to help others that think likewise, to take our Democratic Party back.

Now excuse my while I get back to ripping into the thieves that stole it.

[duffyduff]

57. I want the Democratic Party back

Neoliberal ideas have got to go.

[progressoid]

61. Indeed. Your bad.

It's also UNDERGROUND.

[Turborama]

62. LOCKING

Discuss politics, issues, and current events. No posts about Israel/Palestine, religion, guns, showbiz, or sports unless there is really big news. No conspiracy theories. No whining about DU.