General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsVictim-blaming and woman-shaming claim another victim
No, I won't say s***-shaming. Bcause there's no such thing as a s***.
This rape culture, where women are shamed for behavior that in men is met with a wink and a nod and even respect, has claimed another life. Please don't try to tell me that terms like 'playa' or 'man-whore' carry the same scorn in the same way that the words targeting women do. Just the fact that its necessary to put the word 'man' in front of 'whore' to use it about a man tells you all you need to know.
Blaming and shaming women costs lives. Girls and women need to know that they can come forward. That they won't be blamed, or shamed. They need to know someone will listen, and believe them.
...
Seventeen-year-old Rehtaeh Parsons suicide was the harrowing end to a story involving not only sexual assault, but also the issues of harassment and victim-blaming that are problematic symptoms of rape culture. According to her mother Leah Parsons post on her Facebook, Rehtaeh was subject to significant bullying from her peers, who labeled her as a slut:
The (p)erson Rehtaeh once was all changed one dreaded night in November 2011. She went with a friend to anothers home. In that home she was raped by four young boys one of those boys took a photo of her being raped and decided it would be fun to distribute the photo to everyone in Rehtaehs school and community where it quickly went viral. Because the boys already had a slut story, the victim of the rape Rehtaeh was considered a SLUT.
But there were other issues with the investigation as well, Parsons told the Halifax Chronicle Herald: [t]hey didnt even interview the boys until much, much later and nothing was done about [the photos] because they couldnt prove who had pressed the photo button on the phone. She was told that even the distribution of the photos was not really a criminal issue, despite the fact that Rehtaeh was 15 at the time, meaning the photos constituted child pornography.
While the investigation was ongoing, Rehtaeh struggled with anger and depression leading to her hospitalization on one occasion. She also moved to a different city to avoid harassment of her peers, including a barrage of texts asking Will you have sex with me? and telling her Youre such a slut. The Steubenville victim similarly faced harassing text messages after her identity was revealed by news coverage, including threats resulting in charges against two teens.
http://thinkprogress.org/health/2013/04/09/1840501/rehtaeh-parsons-rape-culture/
Link with more information, and a petition demanding an inquiry into the way this case was handled.
http://bellejarblog.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/rehtaeh-parsons/
niyad
(113,527 posts). . .
Rehtaehs rapists are still out there. They are still in high school, they are still going to parties and they are, quite likely, still raping. Why wouldnt they? They got away with it once, didnt they? Rehtaehs rapists are still living normal, untroubled lives, and she is dead.
Shes dead, but even in the wake of her suicide and the attention her case has gained, government officials are refusing to review why the RCMP declined to lay charges against Rehtaehs rapist.
Instead, Nova Scotias justice minister, Ross Landry, released this fucking joke of a statement:
As a community, we need to have more dialogue with our young people about respect and about support to educate our young boys and our young girls about whats appropriate behaviour, whats not appropriate behaviour, Landry said.
We have to make sure that were cognizant about what gets online and what doesnt get online and what the impacts are, so its having that dialogue.
That still doesnt take away the fact that weve lost a beautiful young woman
and Im very upset about the loss.
Saying that we need to educate boys and girls about appropriate behaviour is victim-blaming. Saying that this wouldnt have been a problem if the pictures hadnt ended up online is like saying that rape is fine, but publicly broadcasting it isnt. Calling Rehtaehs death a tragedy because weve lost a beautiful young woman is a joke seriously, what bearing does her appearance have on how sad her death is? And since Landry is refusing to open an official review into how the RCMP handled this, isnt he basically saying, I think she was lying about the rape, but gosh, she sure was hot
. . . .
http://bellejarblog.wordpress.com/2013/04/09/rehtaeh-parsons/
nadine_mn
(3,702 posts)Rape isn't a behavior - its a crime.... we don't call murder a "behavior" ffs
Taking pictures of it, distributing them and bullying a young woman - these are crimes.
Dismissing it as "inappropriate behavior" minimizes it and further blames the victim.
Just disgusting.
niyad
(113,527 posts)another situation (see downthread--the poster lives in that area)
alp227
(32,047 posts)Actual ABC News description of the story: "every parents nightmare and a cautionary tale for teenagers living in todays digital world"
Based on the existence of universal health care and widespread secularism among the people I thought Canada was the smarter American nation. But rape culture even exists there.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Nova Scotia's generally got some good, independent media who are more than willing to break out the fangs if something gets the various newspapers (and, to a lesser extent, TV journalists) angry.
I've been here 32 years and have never seen the provincial press as unanimously furious as they are right now. This won't be left alone.
TheMadMonk
(6,187 posts)The only thing that will is the hammer of doom.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)Add another word to the forbidden list.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Apparently there is no such thing...
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Glad that got cleared up...
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)After her one lightning Sapphic fling, when she was working as the comic on a lesbian cruise to Alaska, Margaret Cho wondered whether she was gay or straight. She decided that she was just a slut. Wheres my parade? she asks in her new film, Im the One That I Want.
More at
http://www.salon.com/2000/06/08/cho_2/
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)who was sexually assaulted and then killed herself? Did you read the OP, or do you simply not care?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)I answered.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)not even close.
JI7
(89,262 posts)MineralMan
(146,325 posts)Read the OP again. A girl has died. I'd leave it alone, if I were you. Humor isn't called for at all.
whathehell
(29,082 posts)Since you find our attitude so ridiculous...What is YOUR definition of a "slut"?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)I use this definition (bear in mind however, that like unicorns, SLUTS apparently don't exist).
Slut= A very promiscuous person.
What's your definition?
whathehell
(29,082 posts)now give us all a laugh by trying to convince as how calling a MALE a "slut"
is even NEARLY as frequent an occurrence as reserving it for females.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)And can you write it out or is the word SLUT just to scary to spell?
Response to zappaman (Reply #89)
Post removed
zappaman
(20,606 posts)"Hard to grasp for one of limited intellect, I suspect....Maybe you'd do better playing in the shallow end of the
pool."
Thanks for being so civil!
ETA: spelling and clarification.
niyad
(113,527 posts)BainsBane
(53,056 posts)that's the point. And you know that.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)I have more than one male friend who refers to themselves as a "slut".
Some heterosexual, some homosexual.
Maybe you don't?
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)a young girl gang raped and now dead, shamed by her gang rapists to the point she committed suicide. Is there any point at which you are going to decide that matters at all?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)And it's heinous.
But you keep asking me questions about a different matter, so I'm kind enough to answer.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)At all. It's the exact same matter. The child was slut shamed to death. Think about that, and think about what it is you are trying to accomplish in this thread.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)slut [sluht] Show IPA
noun
1.
an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.
2.
Obsolete . a dirty, slovenly woman.
Origin:
13751425; late Middle English slutte; compare dial. slut mud, Norwegian (dial.) slutr sleet, impure liquid
Word story
Slut first appeared in the written language in 1402, according to the Oxford English Dictionary , that great repository of language information. At that time, slut meant roughly what one sense of slattern means today: a slovenly, untidy woman or girl. It also apparently meant kitchen maid (She is a cheerful slut who keeps the pots scrubbed and the fires hot.). By the end of the 15th century the sense a woman given to immoral or improper conduct had come into use, and it is the only meaning in use today. Interestingly, the same second meaning, a promiscuous woman, developed for the term slattern.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Contrary to the OP's statement "Bcause there's no such thing as a s***. ", we find out there is such a thing!
Thanks for clearing that up!
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)She said there is such thing because she opposes the notion that women should be expected to be less sexual than men. Obviously it's a term used widely, but its use indicates a double standard. It assumes shamefulness in women's sexuality. Redqueen believes the differing expectations of sexual activity for women as opposed to men are sexist and therefore wrong. Get it now?
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Can men be sluts?
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)Was hoping for an honest answer.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)and now.
and probably 5 hours from now.
can men be sluts?
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)BainsBane
(53,056 posts)zappaman
(20,606 posts)Does that mean some women can't be?
And can men be sluts?
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 10, 2013, 04:38 AM - Edit history (1)
There is nothing I can say to convince you to reflect on the life of this young woman or the cultural ideas about women and sexuality that compounded the trauma of being gang raped.
Hundreds of thousands more like her who be will raped in this country this year alone, as will many, many millions across the globe. Many of them will die, either as a result of injuries sustainEd in the assault or the ongoing psychological trauma. These are horrific crimes that strike 25%-50% of women on the planet. There is nothing funny about this thread.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)of the sexual conquests. They are bragging.
A woman, on the other hand can be accused as being a s**t for even one sexual encounter (sex on the first date). One hundred sexual encounters. Consensual sex. Or rape.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Are they "proud sluts"?
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)If the young girl was proud to have her rapists call her slut, why did she kill herself?
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 10, 2013, 02:21 AM - Edit history (1)
to the point of committing suicide? When was the last time a man who was gang raped was called a "slut"? When has a male rape victim who committed suicide ever been an opportunity for ridicule on this site? Meanwhile, we witness more laughs over a corpse of a gang raped young girl. I can't imagine what it is that makes some consider horror like this entertainment.
JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)niyad
(113,527 posts)a deliberate insult to females? that we refuse to use patriarchal shaming words?
Sister Militant
AC, PHD
Blessed Order of the Sisterhood of Perpetual Outrage
Response to niyad (Reply #6)
Post removed
niyad
(113,527 posts)Response to niyad (Reply #15)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)not using words like "sl**" and not the traumatization of rape victims via victim-blaming.
Now please tell us how feminists need to stop offending natural allies such as yourself.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)We are really in trouble.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)because it's not insulting enough of women to suit your tastes. No one said a thing about what you've written. This is an OP about a young woman who was traumatized by rape and killed herself. That you find that as an opportunity to make jokes and insist women use the words you like is repulsive.
Response to Post removed (Reply #11)
niyad This message was self-deleted by its author.
JI7
(89,262 posts)which are offensive and used to attack black and gay people.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)and pro-feminist person you are by this sober, respectful response to a discussion of the real harm of rape and victim-blaming.
niyad
(113,527 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)like this guy. They should be more grateful to him
niyad
(113,527 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)then they wouldn't demean women and act like blankety blanks.
It's not their faults, the poor misunderstood dears.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)BainsBane
(53,056 posts)On this site. Funny how attacking allies is never a concern when talking about Obama, Democratic pols, or other members who disagree on non-gender issues?
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)After reading this disgusting story....that is your reply?
Jeez.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)But fine, I am outraged!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)I will endeavor to do better next time.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)do that to me. All I'm asking for is some basic humanity here...
niyad
(113,527 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)of harassing the poster who refused to use a word.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I see you have no problem with that part of the story. You just want to split hairs of whether or not some feminists will spell out the word, slut. There, another faction of the feminists you hate so much on DU will spell it out. Satisfied now? Are you still going to obsess over that word or are you going to at least try to fake it and pretend to show a little compassion for a rape victim who was further victimized and received no justice? Or can you fake that tiny little bit of compassion? Do you even think rape is wrong? is wrong with you that you cannot show even the tiniest big of compassion for a person who was raped, then victimized even more after the fact?
quinnox
(20,600 posts)Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Geez, we have freedom of religion in this country. I know Satanists. They just follow a different religion than I do. I don't care if you worship Satan or not. Even a Satanist can show compassion for a young girl that was brutally gang raped, but not you.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)BainsBane
(53,056 posts)Thank you!
Response to quinnox (Reply #22)
Post removed
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Took the words right out of my mouth!
whathehell
(29,082 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Get a grip, dude!
jeff47
(26,549 posts)BainsBane
(53,056 posts)to suit yourself? Not enough men using misogynist language. You're on a quest to make sure women don't dare refrain from using foul words to insult themselves.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)can come in and alert-stalk.
niyad
(113,527 posts)opiate69
(10,129 posts)Response to BainsBane (Reply #37)
Post removed
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)is truly touching. I'm sorry you feel you have nothing of substance to contribute to the discussion.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)BainsBane
(53,056 posts)It's clear that rape is a common source of yucks for some. Doesn't that make you wonder what we're dealing with here?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Tue Apr 9, 2013, 05:46 PM, and voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT ALONE.
Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Pathetic alerter. Really pathetic.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I think the OP is trolling. Disruptive and divisive.Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: I disagree. It's about having an adult conversation without useing asterisks.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: This is just trollish. Some posters do not spell out certain words, such as cuss words, and they generally don't get attacked for it. Jumping on someone's case for not spelling out the word "slut" just seems trollish to me.
I would love juror #2 to have the gumption to defend their sleazy claim that OBJECTING TO RAPE AND VICTIM-BLAMING is "disruptive and divisive."
I will bet a $25 DU donation that Juror #2 does not have the guts to do so.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)are now deprived of his profound insights.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)according to Fox News. By making people aware of issues of race or gender (Obama or redqueen), they are puncturing the white male cultural norms that are the only acceptable basis of unity--unity by denying all voices and experiences other than their own.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)equality and protecting the right to vote are divisive, to a certain kind of person.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)whathehell
(29,082 posts)when someone gets a post hidden, aren't they supposed to NOT be able
to post anymore on that thread?
Quinnox is still posting after his post was hidden.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)I haven't detected the stench of any new posts from the guy since the one I reported got hidden, though there were a bunch posted between the report and then.
whathehell
(29,082 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)whathehell
(29,082 posts)quinnox This message was hidden by Jury decision. Show
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)I would be curious as to what the alert message was.
Four jurors voted to leave it alone.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)It can be freeing ceasing to use gender slurs.
But no one is stopping you from using it.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)whathehell
(29,082 posts)not to spell out the perjorative "n*gger?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)you see this and click on it solely to make fun of the poster? WTF?
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)Here: LOL and taunts that the OP doesn't use language designed to further demean a deceased girl, put through horrific trauma that led to her suicide.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts):barf:
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)BainsBane
(53,056 posts)Social Justice warrior? I don't think I live up to that label. I wish I did.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)gaspee
(3,231 posts)I don't get how you can think that your post is in any way appropriate. I seriously do not get people sometimes. I'm not sure if I want to when it comes to this level of callousness.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)This is completely different. When you call a man a pussy, it isn't meant as a slur against women. Really, I believe that. Calling anyone a slut is completely and totally a different thing! It's very definitely against women, and there's no fucking way around that! So seriously, STFU!
Asshole
niyad
(113,527 posts). . . .
To add insult to injury, the RCMP did not seem to invest much effort into investigating either the assault or the photographs distribution (though they are apparently now investigating the sudden death of a minor useful, thanks). I wont get into their failure on her rape case, as Anne Thériault has already done a good job of that. I want to ask why the fuck Rehtaehs mother was told by the RCMP that the distribution of the photo was not really a criminal issue, more of a community issue.
. . .
http://stephguthrie.com/2013/04/09/child-porn-not-a-community-issue-rcmp/
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and there's nothing anyone will do about it, so if it happens, the blame is all on the girls/women.
niyad
(113,527 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Surely that never happens!
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)She sent topless pics to some internet creep and he spread them around. She got bullied until she killed herself.
I cannot understand this at all. When I went to high school, I never saw anyone bullied like this. Then again, Facebook and twitter never existed, we didn't have modern text messaging either. Kids seem to have become monsters since those two websites came out. Bullying shouldn't be tolerated in schools but for some reason it still is.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)It is open season on girls and women.
Think of the women just over the last several years who have been viciously attacked online for daring to criticize sexism, misogyny, male privilege, etc. These are grown women and they are ground down from the deluge of vicious, ugly attacks.
Young girls don't have the thick skin yet, they're still trying to form it. How many girls have been shamed to death? How many will be before we stop treating hate speech against women as a joke?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Who cares if it's online? That's just the medium of communication, the whole reason for that communication is school association. If the school is enabling bullies by doing nothing, they're still at fault.
Schools are still tolerating it as harmless when it is vicious. If adults did it, they would be charged with a felony. It should be illegal. The bullies should be expelled one by one until the rest get the message. Kids do this because they know they have nothing to lose; time to change that.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)It was the standard attitude on the issue, somewhere between "utterly indifferent" and "actively supportive of the bullies as long as weapons weren't involved."
The other of the two had an even nastier reputation when I was younger, but it's cleaned up in the last few years. That said, they're both large schools with lots of scope for containing assholes, as is shown by the fact that I'm talking about them with someone who heard about them in an altogether different country. Ugh.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)It's shocking to see the indifference to what would be considered crimes in adults. Don't these people realize that by not correcting them, they are encouraging future criminal behavior?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Most schools have policies restricting their responsibility for policing behavior to what happens on school.property, but they could do more in other ways.
I don't know what you mean by adults being charged with a felony, though. Which crime would it be?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)I googled it, her name was Amanda Todd.
Todd wrote that during the next Christmas break, police informed her at 4:00 a.m. that the photo was circulating on the Internet. Todd wrote that she experienced anxiety, depression, and panic disorder because of this. Her family moved to a new home, where Todd later stated that she began using drugs and alcohol.[11]
A year later, the individual reappeared, creating a Facebook profile which used the topless photograph as the profile image, and contacting classmates at her new school. Again Todd was teased, eventually changing schools for a second time. She wrote that she began chatting to "an old guy friend" who appeared to her. The friend asked Todd to come to his house where they had sex while his girlfriend was on holiday.[12] The following week, the girlfriend and a group of others attacked Todd at school while shouting insults and punching her to the ground. Following the attack, Todd attempted suicide by drinking bleach, but she was rushed to hospital to have her stomach pumped.[11]
After returning home, Todd discovered abusive messages about her failed suicide attempt posted to Facebook. Her family moved to another city to start afresh, but Todd was unable to escape the past. According to her mother, "Every time she moved schools he would go undercover and become a Facebook friend. What the guy did was he went online to the kids who went to (the new school) and said that he was going to be a new student that he was starting school the following week and that he wanted some friends and could they friend him on Facebook. He eventually gathered peoples names and sent Amandas video to her new school", including students, teachers, and parents.[13] Six months later, further messages and abuse were still being posted to social networking sites. Todd's mental state worsening, she began to engage in self-mutilation. Despite taking anti-depressants and receiving counselling, she took an overdose and spent two days in hospital.[14]
Todd was teased by other students at her school for her low grades, a consequence of a language-based learning disability and for the time she spent in the hospital to treat her severe depression.[15]
On October 10, 2012, at about 6:00 PM (PDT), Todd was found hanged at her home.[16][17]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Amanda_Todd
The students committed what we in this country would consider battery or possibly aggravated battery at school, and nothing was done. In the case you posted, it looks like rape and child porn. Even if these can't be proven in a court, they should still have the option to expel the offenders.
Without consequences it seems some schools have environments similar to Lord of the Flies.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I had forgotten she was actually beaten up.
Many people around the world joined in in shaming and ridiculing and mocking her.
This whole world is turning into Lord of the Flies.
Also, I didn't know that the school knew about Rheata's rape, or the picture that was circulating. I know that schools.will bend over backwards to avoid liability.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)nt
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)JI7
(89,262 posts)she just HAD to have done something. why did she go to the party, what was she wearing , did she ever show interest in any of the guys before etc etc .
at most they might give a "i'm not saying it was ok what the guys did BUT............... and go on the blame the victim again.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)JI7
(89,262 posts)wouldn't be surprised if it's like Steubenville where there are many connections among those living there and refusing to do anything to go after the guys.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)People here are lucky in that regard - when someone gets the Chronicle-Herald or a few other local sources angry they do not take prisoners. I don't see them letting this go quickly.
The readers/commenters are another thing, unfortunately. Local news tend to disable comments on articles that are just going to get shat on by the mouthbreather demographic, and anything touching on bullying or most forms of rape draw them like flies, unfortunately.
The reporters themselves? They Get It on stuff like this around here, and they're pissed.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)That is really good to hear.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)They're currently dragging the province, kicking and screaming, into a bunch of criminal and civil inquiries into a recently-closed foster home that had a lot of, well, the nightmarish abuse problems a lot of those tended to have in the past.
They got fed up with the stonewalling and spent an entire week devoting most of their issues to calling out surviving staff at the home by name, describing crimes in significant detail, taking statements from victims corroborating it, etc. They even dropped the "alleged" term that most journalists use in a lot of the claims, and outright dared the accused to try a defamation suit, because they were confident that it would end up with the newspaper vindicated and the abusers in chains.
About once every couple of years something infuriates them enough that they do something along those lines, but it was by far the most spectacular one I've ever seen from them. If they get worked up over this story at all, heads are going to roll in the local school boards, and probably among the RCMP and provincial government, too.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)People living vicariously through bullies and sexual predators? Sure sounds like it to me. They may simply lack the "opportunity" - or so I would hope - to victimize others in real life.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Mostly the latter when anything vaguely bullying-related comes up. That and that idiotic old "I was bullied and I turned out okay!" line.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)People do that a million different ways, this is just one more.
JI7
(89,262 posts)in that kids can't get away from it once school is over. or go to another school as this girl did since it's out there for everyone .
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)People are disappointing. All the people sharing that and spreading it are sick fucks and should be prosecuted.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Something is seriously out of balance here.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)I can see it out my bedroom window right now, and went there myself in the nineties.
Absolutely everything about this sucks.
alp227
(32,047 posts)I've considered Canada to be the smarter North American nation. They've beaten us (8 years and counting) in gay marriage. And in universal health care by something like 70, 80 years? But looking at the Amanda Todd and Parsons cases...and the local authorities' nonchalant responses like the provincial justice minister (what in the US is called an attorney general)...seems that rape culture transcends the border.
And NS has a New Democratic premier; the NDP in Canada is consider "social democratic" according to wikipedia. And 4 of 5 of the MPs from Halifax are from either the NDP or Liberal parties. Before looking up the info for myself I was about to ask if Nova Scotia is "Canada's Mississippi".
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)First, the political aspects since you're wondering about those.
Canada is no more politically monolithic than the United States is. We're left of the United States politically, generally speaking, but we are kind of stuck with Harper for a couple more years thanks to the vagaries of the parliamentary system. The federal government tends to spend about three years under Liberal governance for every two it spends under the Conservatives in their various forms, though the system's probably going to be shook up over the next few decades between demographics and the major parties all reimaging themselves in odd ways. It gets odder when you look at federal/provincial jurisdictions, and the fact that those effectively mean that a provincial NDP or Conservative party can be very different from the federal ones, but that's outside the scope of this. Simply put, we're as complicated and flawed as any other nation of thirty-five million people.
Now, Nova Scotia in particular.
This province, along with the other three east of Quebec, are, shall we say, not the most advantaged region of the country, and haven't been for awhile. About twenty-five years ago there were some pretty bad collapses in the region's mainly natural resource-based industries and the resulting craptacularity is something we've only really started recovering from in the last few years. The part of Nova Scotia I spent my childhood in, Cape Breton, has something obscene like 18% unemployment and that's been improving. The provincial capital, Halifax, where all the mess this thread is about happened, is doing vastly better - and has a half-dozen universities, which explains the election results - but it's still a city in a province that spent a very long time absolutely in the gutter and that's got the spread of nasty cultural effects that implies.
The school whose students assaulted Parsons is in Cole Harbour, which is officially part of Halifax since the city amalgamated with a bunch of other communities back in the nineties, but is usually treated by locals as a separate town (along with a few of the other major communities like the one I'm in). If you take Halifax's issues as a whole and ramp them up somewhat you've got Cole Harbour - by the standards of the town as a whole it tends to be poorer and rougher, both physically and in terms of the population. The high school in particular has had an incredibly toxic reputation going back into the nineties when I was a student at another school (the one I mentioned in my post) - it was seen as the kind of place that was rife with violence, drug problems, and so on and so forth by students in the urban schools, so make of that what you will.
The school I attended was a larger one and had its own issues, feeding from some bad neighborhoods as well, but it also tended to be the school that people who had problems at Cole Harbour High would transfer to to try and get away from things. (A few people I knew back then had transferred to my school from there for safety reasons.)
In this particular case, I don't know if what's going on is "Cole Harbour District High School is still a cesspit," or if it's "Cole Harbour District High has a couple of dozen awful, awful people." Either's as likely, the latter probably a little moreso, and it's going to be under much more of a microscope in the coming weeks than the students and staff there have been used to since what amounted to a race riot back in the nineties. That examination's incredibly overdue.
As to the rape culture issue in general? Much as I hate to admit it, yes, Canada has a problem with that. There isn't a place on this planet that doesn't. I'd like to say we're better at it than some, which doesn't excuse the conduct when things like this happen. That said, I've been seeing Steubenville comparisons in this thread and others, and I don't think those apply much at all. There's a lot of vile little shits in Cole Harbour who brought about a kid's death by the usual circling of wagons that rapists' friends (or high school bullies in general) tend to do, and the Justice Minister almost certainly destroyed his career despite his backpedaling on the investigation issue this afternoon, yes.
On the other hand, the reactions towards this in local media since yesterday, and much moreso today, have been absolutely unanimous rage of a type I haven't seen in local news for a long, long time. Every single paper, down to the university ones, that prints in or near the province had this story on their front page - the only thing on their front page for some - with a tone at least as outraged as the discussions on DU have been having.
We very much have a problem, of course, because this happened in the first place. A bunch of students are going to keep defending what happened, keep protecting the assailants, because the types of people who do that in the first place tend to be valueless little shits who aren't going to be shamed by something like this at all. The police might hem and haw about reasonable doubt with the investigation, though they're going to be dragged back into trying to do something about it come hell or high water at this point. As for the population as a whole, there is absolutely not going to be one of those displays where half the locals start making excuses for the assailants, or talk about how the girl had it coming, or fret about the futures of those poor angels should the law come down on them. The province as a whole is way, way too angry about this right now, and a good chunk of them are exactly as embarrassed that it happened as they ought to be.
I know I am.
Prism
(5,815 posts)I'm not sure name-calling adequately describes the situation. I don't even think the word bullying applies. This was assault from three angles of attack.
First her rapists assaulted her.
Then her peers assaulted her repeatedly by making sure she felt to blame and/or got what she deserved by being raped. To do that to a victim is to assault them.
And finally, the authorities, those charged with protecting her and seeking justice on her behalf, assaulted her by removing any refuge of trust and safety for her in this society when she was feeling most vulnerable.
I'd love to see all kinds of prosecutions rain down because of this.
niyad
(113,527 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)What went unsaid in his statement is the assumption - and it's certainly a correct one - that there's a lot of witnesses concealing or sitting on what they knew about the whole situation, and that the cops aren't sure they can make charges stick unless more detail comes forward. Everyone in both schools knows who did what and there's going to be a whole hell of a lot of pressure to get some of them to get off their cowardly, enabling asses and say something about it.
That said, #1 applies more. Landry's toast. He's in enough trouble with the public over the Home for Coloured Children fiasco a couple of months ago.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)TDale313
(7,820 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)As a community, we need to have more dialogue with our young people about respect and about support to educate our young boys and our young girls about whats appropriate behaviour, whats not appropriate behaviour, Landry said.
The 'educate ...our young girls' is priceless. Do I need a icon or should I just keep my mouth shut since she was 'just a girl'?
http://storify.com/chronicleherald/tears-and-a-call-for-answers-1
Rehtaeh was a very sensitive person and very insightful. She was a critical thinker, she thought outside the box. She was always a deep thinker, she ran, always understood the plight of others. She had great compassion. Thats who Rehtaeh was, said her mother, Leah Parsons.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/04/09/ns-rehtaeh-parsons-suicide-rape.html?cmp=rss
Apparently such people as Rehtaeh have no value in this world anymore.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Those words say so much.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)we failed. each and everyone of us failed.
tears. it hurts so.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)It's so awful.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)People can be so incredibly horrible. I generally don't expect to find them here, but as this post proves, even this message board has its assholes.
SunSeeker
(51,662 posts)IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)I signed the petition, with comments.
Response to redqueen (Original post)
Post removed
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Perhaps Anonymous can shine some light on this situation the way they did in Steubenville.
One hopes. It sounds like the RCMP really really really mishandled this.
840high
(17,196 posts)riverbendviewgal
(4,253 posts)she is Canadian raped by Canadians and her government did not do what should have bee done.
Shame on you Nova Scotia. Shame on your MP!!!!!
chervilant
(8,267 posts)And disgusted... I signed the petition. Hope the "authorities" do what they SHOULD HAVE DONE when this child was raped.
(While I am filled with sadness for this child and her family, I am also disappointed that the many DUers who devoted significant time and energy to "supporting" Femen protesters are not posting here, where they might express their concern and condolences...)
one_voice
(20,043 posts)this poor girl was victimized repeatedly.
It breaks my heart to see stories like this.
I hold out hope that as these stories get more attention, more people begin to speak up and stop things like this from happening.
Instead of victims being shamed, the people trying to do the shaming are the ones shamed and punished for their actions.
My thoughts are with her family.
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)I hope someone is held accountable.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)There's nothing more to say.
Dysfunctional societies create dysfunction.
alp227
(32,047 posts)(Yes gridiron football is a mainstream sport in Canada and in fact there's a CFL.)
I hope Anonymous outs her rapists as they outed Amanda Todd's tormentors and the evidence that sent the Steubenville rapists to prison. from what i'm reading here even her school knew yet did nothing. so were those boys sports stars? popular kids? student government leaders? what was the school trying to hide?
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Talk to any parent who's kid is being bullied, they've likely appealed to numerous teachers and administrations and nothing ever gets done about it. And then the school punishes the victim if they try to fight back. So it ends up being a helpless situation.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)As the other response to your posts suggests, high schools have always had a lukewarm response at best to bullying. They either don't know how to deal with it, or (much more likely) they don't care. The school in question's in a traditionally troubled part of town as well - it's gotten better in recent years, but it was starting from some pretty wretched territory, and I can believe them screwing up something like this through sheer apathy and incompetence more than I could believe active policy-level protection of golden boys.
That said, some local news did catch that the high school knew about the assaults, almost certainly knew about the harassment (though they denied that), and chose not to speak to any students about it "so as not to disrupt any police investigations."
The press was treating that with precisely the respect it deserves this morning.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)It was (I believe) nearly a week later when she finally broke down crying/told her mother what had happened.
By that point any evidence (physical evidence, bloodwork, etc.) had either been washed away/healed, and it became a "he said/she said" with them saying the whole thing was consensual, and her insisting it hadn't been.
In cases like this, the school *CANNOT* play judge/jury (which student do they believe?), and they apparently stayed out of it (which furthered the unsafe situation for the victim, since this was a crime); the rapists very smugly correctly concluded there weren't going to be any consequences, the teenage girl began doing illegal drugs to cope/spiraled into depression/was tormented by her attackers, and (probably after being told she was not a credible witness due to her own drug use - sigh), etc. committed suicide shortly after a "final" decision was made not to prosecute her attackers.
This situation is similar to the idiot who reported that Pedophile Football Coach at a University to his supervisors; the correct chain of report when witnessing a crime is The Police. Reporting to any other "authority" (not licensed to investigate and prosecute) IMMEDIATELY creates a "he said/she said" situation, which frequently creates more tragedy.
In this case (in my opinion), with what they hoped was just "teenage drama" lacking any credible/verifiable evidence that a crime had actually been committed (other than 'bad judgment' by the parties involved - how do authorities not present determine consent amongst hormone ridden teenagers of similar ages?), the school chose to do nothing; the family removed the victim from the situation, but thanks to the internet/social media, the scum were able to continue to threaten/torture her, and apparently enlisted others (some of whom no doubt sincerely believed the criminals protestations of innocence/false accusation).
This is a tragedy, and there are many who will blame the victim for having put herself in a vulnerable position (unconscious fifteen year old at a party); for myself, I blame the rapists.
Rex
(65,616 posts)some people have no souls. None. They use other living creatures like they were tools or furniture. Able to toss aside a feeling, breathing, living person or animal like garbage in a garbage bin. Not even one shred of humanity in them.
It is simply astounding to me the evil some men do.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)I'm not sure how much cruelty a person needs to display until he becomes evil, but there is far too much of the in the world. I find it impossible to understand.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It amazes me too. And depresses me beyond belief. I simply cannot believe that any human being could be that callous and cruel to another.
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)MineralMan
(146,325 posts)Shameful.
Brooklyns_Finest
(789 posts)I'm pretty sure that the deceased was bullied by other girls in her school. I've never known guys to "slut shame" girls.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)No, they did it to FUCKING SHAME HER.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)She was *CALLED* a slut to minimize the fact she was a RAPE VICTIM.
While you may want to change the meaning of the English language by saying "sluts don't exist", the word has a long history of use.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slut?s=t&path=/
SLUT? noun
1. an immoral or dissolute woman; prostitute.
2. Obsolete . a dirty, slovenly woman.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
13751425; late Middle English slutte; compare dial. slut mud, Norwegian (dial.) slutr sleet, impure liquid
Word story
Slut first appeared in the written language in 1402, according to the Oxford English Dictionary , that great repository of language information. At that time, slut meant roughly what one sense of slattern means today: a slovenly, untidy woman or girl. It also apparently meant kitchen maid (She is a cheerful slut who keeps the pots scrubbed and the fires hot.). By the end of the 15th century the sense a woman given to immoral or improper conduct had come into use, and it is the only meaning in use today. Interestingly, the same second meaning, a promiscuous woman, developed for the term slattern.
In common usage, a "SLUT" is someone whose CONSENSUAL immoral and improper actions usually involve non-community acceptable sexual activity; in this case, the victim was assaulted by "RAPISTS" (by definition non-consensual), and is therefore NOT a "SLUT" which false accusation undoubtedly contributed to her mental distress.
By accusing the VICTIM of being an immoral person or of having conducted herself improperly, the RAPISTS attempted to distract from the fact they are IMMORAL PEOPLE WHO COMMIT IMPROPER ACTIVITIES. This technique in psychology is called a "PROJECTION" and is specifically a "DEFENSE MECHANISM":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection
Psychological projection was first conceptualized by Sigmund Freud as a defense mechanism in which a person unconsciously rejects his or her own unacceptable attributes by ascribing them to objects or persons in the outside world instead. Thus, projection involves projecting positive or negative qualities onto others, and is a common psychological process. Theoretically, projection and the related projective identification reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires while the conscious mind is aware.
The theory was originally developed by Freud in his letters to Wilhelm Fliess - '"Draft H" deals with projection as a mechanism of defense' and further refined by his daughter Anna Freud; it is sometimes referred to as Freudian projection.[4]
I am horrified by this story. I do not believe that "slut shaming" is the worst thing that happened because I believe a 15 year old girl being raped, publicly shamed, and her attackers celebrated instead of shot/jailed is the real problem, eventually being the motivation for her taking her own life is the Real Tragedy.
There is no excuse for this. NONE!
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The "real problem" is rape culture, which makes this shit so fucking common.
The "real problem" is that this rape culture results in the deaths of MANY young girls (both "pretty" ones and otherwise).
The "real problem" is that the same victim blaming and woman shaming goes on here, but people get pissed off when I attempt to discuss it because to them any attempt to discuss rape culture is somehow taken as a slight against them, personally, because for those types of people EVERY GODDAMN THING IS ABOUT THEM.
EVEN THE DISCUSSION OF THE GANG RAPE AND SUICIDE OF A YOUNG GIRL.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)"Slut Shaming" - of which she was FALSELY ACCUSED - may have been a "secondary" problem, but *In My Opinion* the *REAL PROBLEMS* were that
1) She Was Raped.
2) EVERYONE knew she was Raped.
3) NO ONE Cared / There Was No Justice.
4) She was told SHE was responsible for her suffering.
5) She felt HELPLESS to prevent it occurring in the future.
When you tie it up with what I perceive to be NONSENSE about "slut shaming" while pretending the word doesn't even exist, or doesn't mean what it has meant for centuries, you seem to be missing the real points/sounding like a person with a specific agenda:
For you, "slut shaming" seems to be the problem, which you associate with "victim blaming" - for me, four rapists raped a girl, and she didn't feel safe because NOTHING HAPPENED TO THEM.
Our culture does not currently empower people to seek their own justice; as a civilization, we rely on police and our judicial system, which despite a record number of incarcerated citizens, does not satisfy the burning urge for justice for most crime victims, with an especial heinous record of abject failure to those who are victims of sexual crimes.
In my opinion, *this* is the real double-standard: "Trust that justice will be served/do not enact your own." When it fails, there is no sense of personal safety.
I wish she had killed the boys instead of herself. Unfortunately, that is not how we train our citizens, and odds are good these guys will commit future crimes (if they haven't already). There was no justice, the victim is dead, and the criminals roam free and are celebrated for their behavior.
As I said, "slut shaming" is the *least* of the problems this case brings up for me.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)IT IS WHY SHE FELT ASHAMED
IT IS WHY SHE ENDED UP DEAD
FFS
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)She was a crime victim.
Had she gone to the authorities as soon as it happened, the "grown-ups" would not have called her a slut. Her *peers* (whose opinion she apparently valued more than life itself, according to you) would have found out *after* her assailants were in jail. (Jail creates credibility for those who aren't privy to private details of assault.)
Instead, she decided to pretend the crime did not occur (which is very common with rape victims). She destroyed physical evidence, didn't get blood tests which would have "validated" her inability to consent, and didn't "cry out" to any adult who could have had her begin the necessary steps for a prosecution.
Her attackers, realizing there were no consequences, began to torture her BECAUSE THEY COULD.
She reported. She was told it was too late - her word against theirs - and the "evidence" was minimized.
She felt humiliated and helpless and killed herself.
NOBODY kills themselves because someone calls them a slut, especially when it isn't true. People kill themselves when they feel overwhelmed and helpless and see no change in their circumstances in the foreseeable future. This depression - also know as "anger turned inward" - was well known to her family by the point in time where she killed herself.
My view of the tragedy and the circumstances surrounding it has not changed. Your logic is NOT "logical."
redqueen
(115,103 posts)But s*** shaming and victim blaming go HAND IN HAND.
And yes, it is why cops dissuade victims from pressing charges.
It is a huge part of the reason why many police departments handle this particular crime so horribly.
And why do you think she felt humiliated? Couldn't have been anything to do with the FUCKING S*** SHAMING, could it?
I give up.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)that she can be assaulted with NO CONSEQUENCES.
She should have gotten justice. She didn't. Most rape victims don't.
I hate that. I don't think it has to do with "slut shaming" and "victim blaming" - we just don't know how to deal with sex crimes in our culture.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)And, far too many of us are oddly ignorant of the history of the patriarchy and women's rights.
I strongly encourage you to read
Against Our Will (Brownmiller)
Beyond Power (French)
Ending the Silence (Thorne-Finch)
The Mermaid and the Minotaur (Dinnerstein)
For Your Own Good (Miller -- actually, anything by Miller)
Blaming the Victim (Ryan)
(This would be a good start, and will help you understand the fundamental flaws in your assertions.)
one_voice
(20,043 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)No, it is a WOMAN whose NOBODYELSE'SFUCKINGBUSINESS activities anger people who would like to control women's bodies.
Women whose "CONSENSUAL immoral and improper actions usually involve non-community acceptable sexual activity" are raped too, and they aren't to blame, either, so this shit where "good" girls are differentiated from "bad" girls is NOT FUCKING HELPFUL.
A woman is drugged and rapists attack her? SHE DIDN'T DESERVE IT!
A woman gets drunk and rapists attack her? SHE DIDN'T DESERVE IT EITHER!
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)We are in agreement that NO ONE DESERVES TO BE RAPED. Why are you posting as if I disagree with that?
Consensual Sex is NOT RAPE.
Non-Consensual Sex IS RAPE.
This seems pretty obvious, and "slut-hood" (or the lack thereof) has *NOTHING* to do with this issue, so why you continue to conflate it is beyond me.
Your OPINION that the common usage definition of "SLUT" isn't REAL - despite the fact it is in the dictionary, and has been used since the 15th century - is ridiculous.
While you might believe that "NOBODYELSE'SFUCKINGBUSINESS" is the correct answer, like it or not, there are "community standards" about appropriate sexual behavior; these vary by community and social group. Generally they are "keep it private/not on the public bus" but these norms (which have been evolving/changing) still have power, but in this case they do NOT apply because she was RAPED (which is not the same thing as consensual sex).
Smart people usually choose to keep their noses out of other people's sex lives, but generally have agreements as to acceptable behavior with their partner(s). This discussion could go on longer, but since the key word is, was and always will be "CONSENSUAL" and the case we are discussing is specifically about a RAPE (by definition, non-consensual), conflating it with "slut shaming" sounds ... ignorant.
NO ONE kills themselves because someone else said something "mean" - especially when it is untrue. She wasn't a slut. She was a crime victim, and she didn't deserve it.
There really doesn't seem to be a point continuing with you because you just seem like you want to jump up and down insisting she was "slut shamed to death" which multiple years of working with rape victims and suicide prevention tells me is ludicrous.
It is a message board. You are entitled to your opinion, no matter how wrong it may be.
<== Attempt to restore humor because you can say the same thing back at me!
Your mileage may vary. Good luck with this thread - I don't think you are winning any converts.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)You really haven't been paying much attention at all, have you?
You came in here shouting and being rude, I gave it back to you. I regret that now, I should have taken the high road.
As for your insults and your laughing... all I'll say is thank you very much for showing your true colors.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Yes, I did pay attention. I also volunteered on a suicide prevention line for several years, and have worked with rape victims, so I am not ignorant of the dynamics, especially with victimized teenagers.
I stand by my statement. NO ONE kills themselves because someone else said something "mean" - there is *always* more to it than that, and feeling helpless/powerless is a part of it.
I have been paying attention. I just don't think your focus on "slut shaming" deals with the "real" issues.
If I was rude, please accept my apologies; yes, I "all capped" some stuff, but not an entire post (which you did). I think it says that this is *IMPORTANT* to both of us.
Its a discussion board - take a breath, and remember that the world is not going to end because someone (in your opinion, me) is "wrong on the internet."
Peace?
redqueen
(115,103 posts)You came in being rude, I made the mistake of joining in.
We exchanged our opinions. I'm done.
You keep on mocking, if it makes you feel good. ("someone is wrong on the internet", indeed.)
Also, FYI
http://www.bullyingstatistics.org/content/bullying-and-suicide.html
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)I don't think I was rude.
I am not mocking you. I am disagreeing with your reasoning, and doing you the courtesy of explaining why.
It is your option to decide whether to stubbornly "double down" and continue to repeat yourself, or conversely assume that I am NOT a complete idiot, and MAY have some valid points, which you can then use to modify your presentation/point to further your agenda, which HOPEFULLY involves making this world a safer place for everyone.
"Someone is wrong on the internet" was not supposed to be mocking. I am sorry it came across that way.
Peace and I'm done for a while.
ON EDIT: "Frothing hysteria" is Rude. I will leave it, because you correctly accused me of being rude, and deserve to be vindicated in that post. Please accept my apologies - I became enamored of my own prose, and apologize for some of the phrasing, but not the opinion (if that makes sense).
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I could have made my points much more calmly but I was angry at seeing some of the worst behaved people in this thread acting like innocents in another one about this same issue, and I responded to you with anger at them in mind. I am sorry.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)It is all good.
Except for the burning rage that this CRAP is going on in the first place, of course. That just doesn't seem to be going away for me.
We are re-watching "Buffy" at my house; the fictionalized nature of the "power" of the protagonist to defend herself always makes me realize how "good television" really makes you think about society in a "safe" way.
The young beautiful blonde is the perfect "helpless victim" - until she kicks the butt of the Bad Guys who consider her "easy pickings!"
If only it were more true in real life - which is why it is such a painful look at society, even nearly fifteen years later.
Our most vulnerable are exactly that - vulnerable.
Argh!!!
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Last edited Wed Apr 10, 2013, 07:15 PM - Edit history (1)
whether or not it was true, she had people trying to shame her for supposedly being a "slut". And yeah verbal bullying does lead to suicide.
I agree the word is meaningless. It seems to mean, "Any woman someone doesn't like." It doesn't seem to actually be tied to promiscuity in use, though I know that's the definition, and even then I reject the definition as women shouldn't be held to a different standard to men, but the word "slut" is an example of one way we are.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)had never KISSED a boy yet.
12, fuckin' yr old.
this was all within the same week of amanda todd, and a 15 yr old that thru herself in front of a train. all for the same thing.
our. girls. are. dying. from mere words. words matter.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Sexists and misogynists may be "smart people," too, but they still use pejorative terms to shame and control women.
I am dismayed that you can't seem to grasp redqueen's point, and I hope in your advocacy for rape survivors you were more sensitive to their experiences of patriarchal oppressions.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Understand and DISAGREE with each other, in what I hope is a respectful way when two people passionately believe in advocating for people dealing with these horrible circumstances.
I believe comments like yours which confuse the rights of crime victims with "patriarchy/misogyny and sexism issues" are frankly insulting to both the victim and those of us who advocate(d) for them.
She did not kill herself because of "slut shaming" - she killed herself (in my opinion) because she was in pain, felt helpless to protect herself, was told by "the system" that since she had not done what she should have done (reported instantly, not destroyed evidence, etc.) she had created a "he said/she said" situation, and she saw no way to end the pain in that moment except the way she did. ("Depression=Anger Turned Inwards" . Since I believe that she was raped, I am naturally enraged on her behalf; however, I find posts like yours (which seem to be twisting her tragic story to benefit your personal agenda) distasteful.
Bluntly, the word "slut" exists, has for centuries, and most literate people understand what it means. The girl in question was NOT a slut, and her sexual assault was a non-consensual act. She did not kill herself because she cared what "some people" were saying/lying about her - she killed herself because she was in pain with no end in sight, and most likely felt helpless to take action to advocate/protect herself in the future.
Our laws and law enforcement / judicial system do not know how to handle sexual issues; this girl is/was a perfect example of the ambivalence the victims themselves feel about the situation. Had she been robbed in a bank by armed strangers, she would have known that the police were available, etc. Instead, she knew who hurt her, and at a certain level, just wanted the whole thing to go away/pretend it never happened. This is also a common reaction to domestic assault. For many rape victims this "works" on a temporary basis, and sometimes it blows up badly.
It isn't about "patriarchy" because we see the same pattern with boys who are sexually assaulted: it is about safety/survival and not being expelled from your social community, or disrupting the status quo. Abandoned children have no one to take care of them, and they die - abused children rarely want to leave abusive homes or outcry because "better the devil you know" comes into play.
There is more, but I am busy. I know way more about these topics than I want to, and I will end by saying the over simplification you propose is infuriating.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)You have no idea WHY this young woman committed suicide. You can only conjecture.
You seem smug about your knowing "way more about these topics," yet you are rejecting a fundamental socio-cultural construct which is-and has long been--damaging to both genders.
Furthermore, the age-old homily "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" exists precisely because words are damaging. Verbal attacks and verbal abuse are counted by survivors as among the worst abuses they sustained.
I have been an advocate for survivors of relationship violence for more than thirty years. I would never ignore the relevance of patriarchy, misogyny and sexism in the countless occurrences of violence against women. In fact VOCA and VAWA exist precisely because advocates for women worked hard to establish these vital pieces of legislation--despite the resistance of our patriarchal society.
Your posts, on the whole, sound arrogant and condescending. I can only hope that your advocacy has had a different tone.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Your entire post can be summarized as follows: "POLITICAL AGENDA with Rape Victim squished into it."
The mother has clearly stated why she believes her daughter killed herself, and it starts with this: "Rehtaeh is gone today because of The four boys that thought that raping a 15yr old girl was OK" - have you actually read anything about this story? This is on the facebook page, for goodness sake!
The mother then talks about how the RAPISTS continued to torture her, which undoubtedly meant she didn't feel safe, and finishes with
Lastly, the justice system failed her.
Which meant she could be victimized again and wouldn't be safe going forward, which meant the pain was never going to get better, which meant she felt her choice was the only way to regain control....at least, these are the *typical* thought patterns of people who contemplate suicide - but not the only!
As I said in my previous post to you, this isn't just a "girl victim" thing - the same "don't tell" which caused her not to report (don't rock the boat!) happens with young males who are raped, as well as victims of domestic violence. It isn't "patriarchy, misogeny and sexism" so much as PERSONAL SURVIVAL, and since you don't understand the root cause, your actions aren't going to actually solve the problem, and therefore you will not get my support (or that of anyone else who is able to think beyond knee-jerk political agenda pushing) because you are not making logical sense.
I am clear on my position - this girl's family has every right to advocate for justice, and changes in the way our law enforcement and judicial system treat sex crimes, but the idea (which started the original post, and is why I originally responded to the thread) that she was "slut-shamed to death" is such a ridiculous concept ("she died because everyone else's opinions killed her?" - poppycock!) and so completely trivializes the pain that drives a depressed crime victim to suicide that it makes me actually respond to posts like yours, when I know you are someone with an agenda, and not a word I type will change your opinion anymore than reality changes the opinions of any other agenda convert, whether that be a religious zealot or a political one.
NOTE: If my reply is a little on the tart side, I truly hope you are able to see it as DIALOG and not verbal abuse. I *am* arrogant about my education on the topic, and I understand why you think I am condescending, since I think you are not being intellectually honest with your analysis, and my scorn for this attitude is probably "condescending" as a result.
I am going to leave the discussion with the assumption that you truly care about victims of these types of crimes, even if I find your efforts to "educate" the rest of us to be completely self-serving. May I suggest that since the technique you are currently using is so much more effective at turning potential allies to your cause AWAY that maybe you might want to find a different one?
Then again, if you do take responsibility for your own failure to communicate/recruit, you won't be able to think of yourself as "special" because you are the "only one(s) who UNDERSTAND" while the rest of us are just blithering idiots, so not sure if you really want more people in your "special club of victims of patriarchy, misogyny and sexism" (which needs to happen, if you actually want to change what you think is a problem).
Good luck.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Besides your penchant for understatement, you seem wholly invested in detailing your position and denying the relevance of the socio-political environment within which these crimes transpire. So much energy expended to repeat your verbiage ad nauseum--why are you so derisive and dismissive about the relevance of patriarchy and misogyny in these crimes against women?
Please, don't bother to repeat yourself. I find you boorish and insulting, and I won't waste my time reading a rehash of your drivel.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Although I think "intellectually dishonest" is the best description of you, I will *happily* embrace "boorish and insulting" from you as one can best be judged by those who are friends - and those who are not.
Let me finish by using the classic: "Neener, neener!" and of course, "I'm rubber, you are glue!"
Someday our biographers will read this witty exchange, and question why we spent so much time on it. I suggest the title of the book be --
"QUICK! Drop Everything! Someone on the Internet is WRONG!"
Peace.
Rex
(65,616 posts)what terms she would not be using for the victim, since they did no apply at all. VICTIM BLAMING...yes absolutely.
Redqueen, sometimes you do not need to make a point to make another point.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)She was s***-shamed. She was bullied to death with it.
Whether you think the term applies or not, that is how she was attacked. As a s***. Mercilessly.
And please note, that when people say that 'But the term did not even apply to her!' they are agreeing by default that the word does apply to some women, which is something I disagree with so very strongly - this is a very important point.
get the red out
(13,468 posts)Because if I were the mother of a daughter that something like this happened to I would be on death row before I was done.
Is it going to come to that? Where families start taking matters into their own hands to end the harrassment one way or another? I can see it happening, I can't be the only derranged person walking around getting thoughts like this. It is starting to appear that there may be no official justice with these evil, child rapist pieces of crap and their young cheerleaders.
I think the boys ought to be charged with murder as well as rape at this point and never see beyond the grounds of a prison for the rest of their lives.
IdaBriggs
(10,559 posts)Zorra
(27,670 posts)this culture where far too many boys are insidiously influenced to deny/ignore the humanity of girls/women and treat them as "things", mere objects of scorn that exist solely for their personal physical gratification.
This horrible, heartbreaking incident is a clear illustration of the tragic effects of the rampant sexualization/objectification of girls/women, and the rape culture it fosters and perpetuates.
Sex sells, it's a major source of profit for global corporate business, and greedy corporate sociopaths will continue to market girls/women as sex objects for as long as it remains profitable, and the ignorant will continue to buy it, no matter what the resulting cost and consequence in human degradation, suffering, and tragedy.
Poor Rehtaeh. She was not only viciously raped and abused by four young boys, she was subsequently slowly tortured and murdered by this culture for the "crime" of being born female.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)This is a very important aspect which I was afraid to bring up.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)I'm hoping more folks will connect the dots and start thinking about the correlation between sexualization/objectification and abuse/rape.
Dr. Strange
(25,922 posts)A move in the right direction (finally!), but I'm hoping Anonymous is on standby. Just in case.
BainsBane
(53,056 posts)She might still be alive.
Judi Lynn
(160,598 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)This is the second time an investigation like that has blown up in that idiot's face. Maybe the hint will sink in this time.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)the resulting threat of Anonymous's possible involvement, is what motivated them to reconsider their refusal to investigate the handling of her case.
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)He blocked the idea of an official investigation into abuse at a foster home for black kids that had a really, ah, horrific reputation while it was in operation. (It closed about 15 years ago, and the survivors have been getting louder about what happened since.) That really, really, really upset people around here; the fact that he's doing the same thing about a much more immediate event especially infuriated everyone around here.
Even if the province was in an isolated bubble, the size of the "are you fucking kidding me?" chorus would probably have knocked him into reconsidering things. The fact that he's turning the province into an international punchline helps, of course.
Judi Lynn
(160,598 posts)smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I am so in despair after reading how often this happens and how often the perpetrators get away with it. I just cannot believe it.