Should bullying someone to suicide be classified as a form of manslaughter?

[TimberValley]

The idealist in me says yes, but the practical side of me says that this might be very problematic in a court of law, or could actually encourage people who are already suicidal to do so in such a way that someone would be blamed and prosecuted for it.

[slackmaster]

1. No, but it should be a definitive defense for someone who kicks a bully's ass and is charged...

...with assault.

[Katashi_itto]

2. No, it's homicide. The incidents so far that come to mind show a clear trail of harrassment

ha

[Baitball Blogger]

3. Things have a way of happening in a roundabout way.

Take the Columbine massacre for instance. Incidents like that one are responsible for the anti-bullying policies you see in schools today. (My opinion.) And, since we're on an anti-bullying crusade, it's likely that this will ramp up the measures. It might arrive in an unexpected way, however.

[HereSince1628]

4. Failure to report criminal behavior while propagating evidence of it in the media should be

a misdemeanor related to depraved indifference.

[graham4anything]

5. Actually it should be murder, not manslaughter as it is long term planned.

Manslaughter if not murder.
Jail time.

[randome]

6. Wouldn't 'voluntary manslaughter' cover this?

[onenote]

7. Proving causality beyond a reasonable doubt would be a challenge

[TimberValley]

8. Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking.

Perhaps someone who is being bullied in school, is also coping with the recent loss of members of her family, a diagnosis of an incurable disease, has failing grades in all of their classes in school, and their pet dog or cat just died also.


How would one be able to prove that it was the bullying, and not the combination of all the other factors, that was the main reason for the suicide?

[dsc]

17. There is a doctrine in the law that you take people as you find them

I shoot a man in the leg but unbeknownst to me he has a heart condition and dies of a heart attack. I can be charged with murder.

[blueamy66]

19. Is that the Egg Shell Doctrine?

We are using it in our claim against the idiot that hit us, while drunk, speeding and out of his mind.

My guy had broken some vertebrae in the beginning of the year. He was doing well, until this guy hit him and re-aggravated the injury.

Same thing?

I don't believe it would apply in the case of the recent sexual attack/suicide by the girl in CA, as I believe that she only became suicidal AFTER the attack.

[dsc]

20. yep

and good luck in your case.

[blueamy66]

21. thank you

nt

[bluedigger]

9. No, suicide is suicide.

It doesn't matter how deplorable the circumstances were that made a person commit the act. Suicide is the ultimate expression of free will.

[HereSince1628]

12. Unfortunately, wilfullness is also subject to pathological impulsiveness

Self-harm isn't always the outcome of rational deliberation characteristic of cognition undistorted by the motivations of emotional crisis.

[LanternWaste]

22. No more and no less than is living another day.

"Suicide is the ultimate expression of free will..."

No more and no less than is living another day.

[TimberValley]

34. I'm not sure if that free will is still the same.

when someone is in very dire or painful circumstances of hardship.


In a philosophical sense, a person who is impoverished, bullied relentless, ugly, rejected, discriminated against, ridiculed and physically disabled has just as much or little free will to end his life as a billionaire who is handsome, admired, has not a care in the world, great family and friends, and everything one could ask for.


But in practical terms, I think the former requires far more strength to go on living than the latter.

[polly7]

10. I think it should definitely be punished in some way as a criminal offense.

Bullying has existed forever, but because of the internet now making it nearly impossible to escape from .... anywhere, the ability to completely destroy lives by it is a lot more probable than just possible, imo. Something has got to be done.

[Whiskeytide]

11. You are correct in your supposition...

... that the courts would be unable to implement it in most cases - and it would be difficult even in a "classic" case. Legal standards for criminal conduct have to be pretty well defined to withstand both constitutional scrutiny and the requirements of practical application. "Bullying" is too vague, and also too dependent on the specific mental state of the victim. Its hard to hold someone accountable for what is, ultimately, the actions of another (i.e, the victim committing suicide). Its unfortunate. There should be consequences. But I don't think the criminal courts can offer a workable solution.

[quinnox]

13. maybe the charge can carry a "special circumstances" wording

which could increase the potential punishment, in terms of length of time in prison. It would occur in those cases where the victim killed themselves after clear intent by these bullies to post embarrassing things online about them.

I just read about that girl who killed herself, after three young teen punks posted pictures of their assault online. These "boys" need to be treated as adults and face long prison sentences. 10 years minimum.

[get the red out]

14. Yes

It definitely should be considered so.

[cali]

15. Nearly impossible to prove.

[get the red out]

33. Because we have a fucked up legal system

as well as a fucked up society.

[Sunlei]

16. The parents of the dead children (current bullied kids) should bring charges against the bullies..

(and charges against the school Admin.)let our courts sort this question out. At the very least, once the word gets out (and with social media, word would get out)- this would be a deterrent against future bullies.

[teamster633]

18. That might be the solution:

wrongful death suits brought by parents or relatives in civil court. For cases with merit, this could be more successful than trying to prove criminal liability.

[bluedigger]

24. My thoughts exactly.

Big difference between civil and criminal liability.

[Sunlei]

26. lots of court cases could change things for the better.

Kids who are bullied need to use their cell phones.record the bullies. Don't pull the phone out in front of the bullies, preplan it. Use a cell phone or even get a tiny pocket cam. Those tiny cams aren't expensive. Load it on youtube and plenty of good people in society will help.

Those kind of people who do bully do NOT want to be exposed.

[pipi_k]

23. Like you...

I have mixed thoughts on this.

Bullying is a heinous thing to do.

But there would be problems associated with being able to prosecute someone for manslaughter if it leads to suicide.

First, it makes the person who bullies responsible for the mental state of another person.

IOW, it's not the bullying...it's what happened as a result of it.

So why not expand that to include people pushed to suicide because their spouses/lovers broke off a marriage or relationship?


What if a person's spouse stated, in front of witnesses, that if the other person left, s/he would kill him/her self? If a person knows that leaving would result in the spouse killing himself and other people witnessed the statement, would it be manslaughter...or even premeditated murder...if the person really did leave and the spouse committed suicide?


Could the family of the person who committed suicide press charges?

People do shitty things to each other, but I don't know if we should be making people responsible for each others' mental states.

[TimberValley]

32. You raise a good point. n/t.

[aandegoons]

25. Absolutely

While it would be little used and very hard to prove. It should make many think before bullying someone to the point of suicide.

[whathehell]

27. Maybe "reckless endangerment"...I definitely think it should be criminalized in some way. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

28. No. This would actually encourage more suicides.

If a depressed teen who is being bullied knows that, should he commit suicide, his tormentors will be sent to prison for manslaughter or murder, that's a big incentive for him to go ahead and kill himself.

[TimberValley]

35. That's true.

I think it may be best for the victim to sue while alive rather than punish the bullies after the victim has committed suicide.

[kudzu22]

29. It's very problematic

Suppose you have a friend with whom you sometimes exchange good-natured digs at each other's character. Now suppose he commits suicide because he gets fired or his wife catches him cheating or something. A prosecutor going through his emails could find plenty of evidence to charge you with bully-manslaughter.

[JVS]

30. No.

[jberryhill]

31. Incentivizes Suicide

[Douglas Carpenter]

36. bullying should be a crime - but it is not manslaughter

encouraging someone to drink - who later on kills himself or someone else while driving drunk -might have in some cases a legal liability - but it not manslaughter - unless perhaps they personally liquored them up and personally imposed upon them to drive thus setting a stage for a tragic accident. Same thing with bullying - Unless the bullies personally set the stage for them to commit suicide such as handing them a lethal dose of drugs or a loaded gun it falls short of manslaughter - although they may have some legal liability.