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Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:07 PM

So, just how much money are those lazy seniors getting from their Social Security?

What is the maximum monthly Social Security retirement benefit?

The maximum benefit depends on the age a worker chooses to retire. For example, for a worker retiring at age 66 in 2012, the amount is $2,513. This figure is based on earnings at the maximum taxable amount for every year after age 21.

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/5/~/maximum-social-security-retirement-benefit

That is $30,156 per year.

That seems like a lot compared to the $15,080 you earn working 2080 hours (40 per week) at the federal minimum wage of $7.25 for a year.

But that $15,080 per year sounds pretty good to the average Social Security recipient who was receiving $14,760 per year as of January 2012 -- even less than our friend earning a minimum wage.

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/13/~/average-monthly-social-security-benefit-for-a-retired-worker

And at least $100 per month or $1,200 of that $14,760 is taken out of the Social Security benefit to pay for Medicare before that senior ever gets his money. That brings the basic Social Security/Medicare benefit down to $13,560 per year.

The poverty guideline for one person is $11,490.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/poverty/13poverty.cfm#guidelines

So, Social Security keeps the average single senior just $2070 above the poverty guideline limit. Keep your husband or wife alive, hon, because if you lose him or her, it's tough sledding ahead.

Some seniors pay much more for their basic Medicare than $100 per month. I know someone who is retired, on Medicare and has to pay $300 per month for her Medicare based on the health insurance company that her former employer chose for her.

Our co-pays for Medicare vary from $5.00 to hundreds of dollars depending on what procedures we have done and where we have them done. I am enrolled with Kaiser. It's probably the cheapest or at least one of the very least expensive Medicare plans. To go basic Medicare in L.A. is complicated because you have to pick doctors, specialists, etc.

To be so lucky as to receive $30,156 per year from Social Security, you would have to have earned pretty much the maximum salary or wage subject to Social Security taxes for many years. And most people don't do that.

Remember, the very rich, people like Romney or Pete Peterson, don't take much, if any of their millions in income that is subject to Social Security taxes. They receive capital gains and other forms of income besides, only approximately the first $110,000 of wages or earned income is subject to the payroll or Social Security taxes.

So the very rich are not benefiting or losing that much from Social Security or payroll taxes. Many of them don't pay much at all into it. I cannot understand why they are even concerned about it.

Social Security is ABSOLUTELY NONE OF THE BUSINESS OF RICH PEOPLE LIKE PETE PETERSON AND HIS MILLIONAIRE BUDDIES AND THEY SHOULD KEEP THEIR NOSES AND THEIR DIRTY FINGERS OUT OF IT.

There is really a lot of misinformation about Social Security out there.

I am posting this on my DU journal so that I and others can refer to it in the future.

For minimum wage link:

http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/wages/minimumwage.htm


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What is the average monthly Social Security benefit for a retired worker?

The average monthly Social Security benefit for a retired worker was about $1,230 at the beginning of 2012. This amount changes monthly based upon the total amount of all benefits paid and the total number of people receiving benefits.

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/13/~/average-monthly-social-security-benefit-for-a-retired-worker

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Arrow 44 replies Author Time Post
Reply So, just how much money are those lazy seniors getting from their Social Security? (Original post)
JDPriestly Apr 2013 OP
Thinkingabout Apr 2013 #1
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #2
Thinkingabout Apr 2013 #4
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #12
woo me with science Apr 2013 #3
kickysnana Apr 2013 #5
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #8
NobodyInParticular Apr 2013 #6
customerserviceguy Apr 2013 #9
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #13
customerserviceguy Apr 2013 #17
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #29
airplaneman Apr 2013 #19
customerserviceguy Apr 2013 #20
Cleita Apr 2013 #27
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #30
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #10
abelenkpe Apr 2013 #7
Cleita Apr 2013 #11
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #15
Cleita Apr 2013 #21
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #31
Cleita Apr 2013 #34
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #35
RebelOne Apr 2013 #16
Cleita Apr 2013 #23
treestar Apr 2013 #14
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #18
airplaneman Apr 2013 #24
Cleita Apr 2013 #26
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #32
Stinky The Clown Apr 2013 #36
Cleita Apr 2013 #25
treestar Apr 2013 #28
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #39
magical thyme Apr 2013 #22
Bohunk68 Apr 2013 #33
JDPriestly Apr 2013 #38
Lars39 Apr 2013 #40
Bohunk68 Apr 2013 #41
Lars39 Apr 2013 #42
RebelOne Apr 2013 #44
msongs Apr 2013 #37
forestpath Apr 2013 #43

Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:25 PM

1. If you happen to work more than 35 years the lower years are dropped on determining your

Benefits. I hear Congressional members rant about the entitlements but I never hear them wanting to cut their retirement or medical entitlements. They do not contribute towards their retirement entitlements. Let's get this evened out, let Social Security and their retirement be handled the same way and then see if they are ready to sign on to making cuts.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #1)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:28 PM

2. Good idea. But they make the laws. How do we get our points across

to them?

Is your Representative a Republican or a Democrat and if a Democrat, a conserva-Dem or a Progressive who will stand up for Social Security?

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #2)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 05:22 PM

4. I am not in good shape in my Congressional members, Crazy Cruz, Cronyn and TP

Wanna Be Culberson. When I complained to Culberson about the 30 times he has voted to repeal ACA but turns right around and voted to keep his health care. I told him we have to pay for his health care but he wrote back saying he paid for his health care. Another lie, he onlypays a small portion. I continue to write them, relieves my tensions.

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Response to Thinkingabout (Reply #4)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:24 PM

12. Are you a member of your local Democratic Club or Party?

It would be good in your case to get together with others to challenge Culberson's seat. Even if you can't win, you can put him on notice.

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 04:43 PM

3. K&R

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 05:56 PM

5. SSI

Calculation details Recipient
Unrounded annual amounts foró Monthly amounts for 2013
2012
Eligible individual $8,386.75 $8,529.32 $710
Eligible couple 12,578.71 12,792.55 1,066

a The unrounded amounts for 2013 equal the unrounded amounts for 2012 increased by 1.7 percent.

At that place you do get extra help with Medicare and Medicaid but that generally does not cover much in the way of dental and at 62 my dental bills are astonishing, despite fluoride and flossing and regular care.

They have eliminated all new section 8 and meals on wheels.

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Response to kickysnana (Reply #5)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:13 PM

8. They have eliminated all new section 8 and meals on wheels.

This chained CPI and raising the benefits of the poorest is really a transfer of costs now paid out of the general fund and grabbing the money to cover those costs out of the Social Security Trust Fund.

It is the sneakiest thing yet. I am really ashamed of Obama for allowing people to put his name on the chained CPI. I doubt that he has thought it through. I doubt that he ever asked the really important questions about how precisely it would function. You have to think in details and you have to think very logically to figure it out. Obama is good just wonderful at a lot of things, but like most leaders, he does not think about the details. He is capable of thinking logically, but he did not apply himself here.

And yes, it isn't just dental care which is extremely expensive now, but also eyeglasses and examinations and hearing aids that are not covered by Medicare.

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:01 PM

6. The old saying, "The Devil is in the Details" becomes quite

clear. Why the effort to squeeze the seniors? Simple logic--the Social Security funds look ever so attractive to the boys on Wall Street. If they could, they would take the entire trust fund, privatize it today and syphon the cash tomorrow. In the meantime they will try to cut benefits as much as they can get away with. The less money there is disbursed, the more there is to steal. By cutting seniors' finances you reduce their good health. Thieving oligarchs see social security recipients as opponents with money, and to them an opponent with money is an enemy. How do the Wall Street Boys defeat their enemy? They demoralize retirees financially, give them less than minimal health care, and then watch them lose the strength to stand up to bullying. The weaker they get, the quicker they die. Once they are six feet under. that trust fund money will quickly find its way into the pockets of Wall Street.

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Response to NobodyInParticular (Reply #6)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:14 PM

9. There's no real money there to steal

Just a bunch of non-negotiable specialized Treasury securities that can only be redeemed at the whim of Congress. Now, would Wall Street like to take a portion or better yet, all of the money that an employee and their employer pay right now for FICA? You bet they would. But that's something different.

Oh, and when I got my FICA tax 'holiday' from the President, I promptly upped my contributions to my own 401K by that same two percent. I guess he helped them get their wish, didn't he?

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:43 PM

13. This is precisely what they want.

to take a portion or better yet, all of the money that an employee and their employer pay right now for FICA.

That's the real goal.

And good for you. As they say, Social Security does not replace saving for your retirement. But right now, seniors are not receiving much for the money they have in the bank. The interest rates are less than 1%. Most of us do not make enough money to save enough in retirement funds to help us out much at those interest rates.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #13)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:54 PM

17. Oh, yes, the interest rates stink

But all of my 401K is in money market funds, so I'm not playing betting games with my principle. Right now, I'm laying away 20% of pay there, with a three percent match from my employer, that's over a thousand a month going into the account. No interest, but at this point, my own contributions are a far better way to make that account balance rise than any investment 'strategy' with the funds in my employer's plan.

I have a credit card debt to pay off, and when that's done, I'll up the 401K percentage even more. Of course, there's no danger that I'll get anywhere near the three million figure the President wants to use, but once we've established that a tax deferred account has artificial limits, then it's all a matter of where those limits go in future administrations and Congresses. I figure they will be a tempting target in the years ahead if this part of the President's budget plan succeeds now.

With a modest pension from my current employer, I should be OK. But I'm planning the next ten years to save as if Social Security isn't going to be there. If I'm wrong, it's not too tough a situation to live with.

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #17)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:42 PM

29. Good for you for saving. Most Americans do not earn enough

to cover their families' expenses and save $1000 per month.

You should be OK, although when you retire, unless the interest rates go up considerably, you may not get much income from your savings. That is the problem

Right now the interest rates mean that you have to have saved some incredible amount of money in order to get even a few thousand dollars a year in interest.

If you are young and saving $1000 per month (or more) and are lucky enough not to have any emergencies or lay-offs between now and retirement, you should be among the very fortunate few who are not so dependent on Social Security. But life has its surprises, not all of them good, and that is why we ALL need Social Security.

Lots of people withdrew the money from their retirement funds to pay their mortgages when they were laid off during this recession. Others had to withdraw the money just to live because they lost their jobs. A lot of elderly people who entrusted their accounts to supposedly qualified investment advisers lost much of their savings. Some have earned some of that back, but it's been a very rough time for most.

You seem to have a good job. I hope all goes well for you. And I hope you understand that things are not going well for most people especially those who took out new mortgages on homes they owned for various reasons and then got stuck in the mortgage crisis and lost their homes. I know of a number of cases like that.

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:58 PM

19. I did the same thing.

Upped my 401K by 2% immediately after getting the holiday.
Did you know 401K fund managers take between 2% and 5% every year from your account?
It is estimated that in 20 years for every $100 you have the fund manager has siphoned $80 for themselves. IF we had government run 401K taking 1% a year (add it to the SS fund) then we would have $160 instead of the $100 plus there would be $20 to shore up SS.
-Airplane

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Response to airplaneman (Reply #19)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:03 PM

20. Many fund managers do suck out a lot

And you get nothing for it, as their wild-ass guesses are no better than the low-fee funds. My money market fund has an expense ratio of only 0.16%, so I'm not troubled by that. When interest rates go back up again, I'm hoping that they will find good safe places to make up some money. In the meantime, the money that comes out of my paycheck is probably safe.

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Response to customerserviceguy (Reply #9)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:22 PM

27. That's not what they are looking for. They are looking to get the new FICA

contributions, that 15% taken from wages, put into private accounts instead of the trust fund. Once the money starts being diverted into Wall Street, the trust fund will be emptied out by current beneficiaries, so this is why they want to make it less and less every year for recipients. They know this will destroy the trust fund and then all that FICA tax money will go into their gambling den. This has been tried in Great Britain, Chile and a few other countries and has failed miserably. The pensioners found themselves with nothing in their so called individual retirement funds and the countries involved have had to step in and provide emergency measures to take care of them, which taxpayers also have to pay for. This is the only fund that is left to be raided by the Wall Street banksters.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #27)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:44 PM

30. You are so right, Cleita.

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Response to NobodyInParticular (Reply #6)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:17 PM

10. Exactly. And that is why this is rightfully a very emotional issue for

those of us who understand what is going on.

The worst is that the pro-Obama types are going on about how this will help poor seniors. It really won't improve their situation at all. It will mostly only help the very rich. Wall Street wants the money -- all the money.

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:02 PM

7. K&R nt

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:21 PM

11. If I got that much, I would be okay.

My benefit is 60% of that and even so I'm better off than the majority of SS recipients who get half of what I get.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:49 PM

15. Are you talking about the average benefit or the high one?

If you have a benefit below the poverty level, you should be eligible for some things like supplemental Medicaid for Medicare or housing subsidies or food stamps.

But some people have said they want to do away with those benefits for seniors. That would really hurt the seniors who are getting very low Social Security benefits and relying on those other benefits to bring them up to at least the poverty level.

I posted this because if you listen to the Pete Peterson gang and his friends, you think that seniors are doing really well, cashing in on Social Security. No. That is a lie.

And many, like you, receive even less than these numbers suggest.

Is hope that you understand that my purpose is to advocate for all of us and to stop the lies about what Social Security pays out to individuals. If you look at the total sums paid out, they are very large as a proportion of overall government expenditures that we are allowed to see. (I don't know whether we see all the money spent on military, intelligence activities.) But the truth is, that we just have a lot of seniors and we paid extra to cover our benefits when we retired and the government owes us that money.

I hope you are getting a benefit commensurate with your contributions to Social Security. That's the system. It is very hard on those who are alone and earned low wages or maybe did not work part of their lives. It is also, as I pointed out, very, very hard for widows and widowers who inherit the costs of a two-person household when their spouse dies, but don't inherit the income.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #15)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:03 PM

21. The average benefit. I'm never low enough for the poverty breaks even though

I struggle if I don't make money otherwise. So if I struggle, I can't imagine what impoverishment people who do qualify for those programs are going through. Also, I have savings which I try not to go into as I haven't been able to replace anything I've taken out for emergencies lately, which I used to be able to do. As far as the supplemental Medicaid for Medicare, there are no doctors in the area who will take it, that is a doctor I would trust. Some do but they are basically pill pushers. Also regarding insurance, a third of my benefits goes to insurance. I really consider them evil parasites because all it is is money you give them and god forbid you get into a car accident or other reason for it and use it, they penalize you plenty.

I have been driving for fifty years and haven't had an accident in thirty. I got into a fender bender last year, which didn't even make a mark on my car and a scratch on the other. My insurance was increased two and a half times for three years. I mean this company, Allstate took my premiums for thirty years and for what probably cost them a few thousand dollars penalized me like that. It's criminal what they get away with.

I do get benefits from husband and fortunately I have worked all my life and still do when I can get jobs so I have my benefits as well. Like I said I'm not as badly off as others, but that extra $1,000 a month would be the difference of meeting my expenses and maybe getting my hair and nails done now and then than me trying to find ways to economize like I do today.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #21)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:47 PM

31. It sounds frivolous to say the money would be to get your hair and nails

done, but a lot of older women with arthritis cannot wash their hair because they don't have the feeling in their hands or the ability to do it. Also, the money you spend in the beauty shop helps a person who needs that job.

Cutting Social Security and scaring seniors about it with this ominous sounding chained CPI will harm the economy. Seniors spend their Social Security checks. They are job creators. As are families with young children.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #31)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:52 PM

34. And that would be me. I too have arthritis and it's hard for me to cut my hair or

manicure my nails. I need help. My step daughter helps me but a lot of women don't have help. Also, women need to have their hair done professionally no matter what their age. They don't have to go to some fancy salon, but in order to look good in public, like going to church, or to the doctor, you need help.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #34)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:54 PM

35. True. Thanks.

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Response to Cleita (Reply #11)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:49 PM

16. Me too.

My monthly check is only $1,378 after the Medicare deduction.

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Response to RebelOne (Reply #16)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:04 PM

23. And it's really not enough to be comfortable. None of us are looking for a luxurious

retirement, but just some creature comforts would be nice. I have been without a working heater for the last four years. I haven't been able to get it fixed. Fortunately, I live in CA so I don't need it very much, but still.

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:45 PM

14. It is only the cost of living increase, not the amount

that is even in issue.

Most people have other resources, too.

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Response to treestar (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 06:56 PM

18. According to Trumpka of the AFL-CIO, the average amount in the

401(K) of Americans is about $15,000. And that money often gets taken out and spent for necessities before retirement.

Seniors save, but if they are lucky enough to have any savints, they need them for things like hearing aids (can cost several thousand dollars, don't work well and are not covered by Medicare) a rainy day -- a long hospital stay or a different car, or the many other costs that seniors have like property taxes or homeowners' association fees, etc.

So savings are not an answer although ideally every senior would have them. There just is not way around it. The chained CPI is a terrible, terrible idea.

Further, right now, interest rates are so low that seniors are not getting any income from their savings. It's a fact. Trust me on it.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:05 PM

24. isn't everyone supposed to have:

A personal savings account.
A medical emergency savings account.
A new car savings account.
A unemployment savings account.
A retirement savings account.
A emergency disaster savings account.
A college savings account for the kids.
A mad money savings account.
-Airplane

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Response to airplaneman (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:11 PM

26. Oh, and a genie in a lamp that provides all those things if you

don't have them.

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Response to airplaneman (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:48 PM

32. LOL. Great post. Thanks. I needed that laugh.

And all that on federal minimum wage. Yes. The American dream.

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Response to airplaneman (Reply #24)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:55 PM

36. We're also supposed to have low cholesterol, sweet breath, and a trim waistline.

I assume your post was ironic.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:10 PM

25. With lower and lower wages and minimum wage not being a living wage, I don't

understand how even the most moronic freeper can't see that it's almost impossible to save.

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Response to JDPriestly (Reply #18)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:32 PM

28. You make it sound like the difference will be so huge

that middle class and rich people won't be able to afford anything.

And it's not supposed to apply to the poor.

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Response to treestar (Reply #28)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:29 PM

39. I hope you see that the amounts paid out each month are smaller

than people think.

The rich do not need Social Security. As I explained they usually get most of their money from sources on which payroll taxes are not imposed so they may not get that much Social Security.

The middle class -- how are you defining that?

Much of the middle class right now is dependent on Social Security for much or all of their income at this time. Where else are they to get it? Some have pensions, but they may not get Social Security and those of us who are younger mostly don't have pensions.

Owning a home does not mean you have income. And reverse mortgages are like hornet's nests. Seniors learned during this last crisis not to go there. Very few seniors have enough savings to pay any interest income with today's interest rates.

I don't know who you are talking about.

Maybe you are talking about the upper 5%. But that is not the reality of most of us and not the reality of those who really rely on Social Security.

People who have a lot of money imagine that everyone lives like they do. Most of us do not.

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Response to treestar (Reply #14)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:04 PM

22. you do realize that the cost of living increase impacts the total amount

 

and inflation impacts how far that total amount will go, right?

And that assuming that you can continually cut your expenses as your income fails to keep up with inflation means, essentially, assuming a continuing decline in standard of living.

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 07:51 PM

33. My SS each month is

$813. I own my home, but only because when my partner died, we had done the will thing and it was deeded to me. I used his life insurance to pay off the mortgage. But, I'm having a great deal of difficulty keeping up with the land and school taxes. Taxes which in NYS have a cap of 2%, which can be overridden. With only a 1.7% increase in SS and a 2% tax increase, helllllooo. I do not pay Medicare out of my SS, because of its lowness. I do qualify for Medicaid and do get it. I also qualify for Food Assistance, but do not utilize it, but do utilize our local Food Pantry. I do qualify for LIHEAP, which Obama cut last year and there are more cuts in the offing for this year. I heat with firewood and have seen the per cord cost go from $250 to $325/cord in two years. I require 4 cords per year to heat my well-insulated home. What LIHEAP provides barely covers half of the need. Ergo, I get the chainsaw and cut a lot of my own from my next door neighbor who has a lot of dying/dead ash trees.

I also serve on my countie's Senior Citizen Council as Discretionary Fund Chairperson. We have been hit in the last month with many seniors, many of whom have a much better income than mine (often twice as much), that have run out of fuel in this long cold spring. It is not easy. I have looked at reverse mortgages and have also spoken with other seniors and have been told horror stories. I am 70 and may well live another 20+ years. Mom is 87 and doing quite well. I am not happy that Obama even put on the table the CCPI, because that opened the door for it to be brought up again and again. Screw this dimensional chess crap.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:24 PM

38. You are precisely the kind of senior that I am posting about.

Social Security barely pays what people need. To think of cutting it so that it does not really keep up with inflation is a horrible idea.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #33)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 09:56 PM

40. Does your state have a property tax relief program

for low income elderly , disabled or disbled veterans? A lot of states do, but the programs are not always "advertised".

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Response to Lars39 (Reply #40)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 07:04 PM

41. It's called the STAR

program. And, I also qualify for the Senior STAR program. Thanks be that I also sit as chairperson of our local Tax Grievance cmte and know about this. Even then, my property taxes and school taxes run a good $300/mo.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #41)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 07:08 PM

42. Ouch!

Glad you qualified and got a little help.

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Response to Bohunk68 (Reply #33)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 07:21 PM

44. My monthly Social Security check is $1378 after

the $105 deduction for Medicare. Fortunately, I live in a mobile home that I own and my expenses are low, but this month is going to be rough because I have home and car insurances to pay and that will take a big chunk of my SS. I must keep the home insurance because of all the bad storms and tornadoes we have had in Georgia.

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Sun Apr 14, 2013, 08:08 PM

37. you forgot income tax and the people that are cheated by the SS Admin....

if you work 25 years at SS wages then take a 10 year job with a retirement program, SS cuts back your SS by SEVENTY % even though you paid in that money. Gotta pay for those bombers and drone murderers somehow I guess.

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Response to JDPriestly (Original post)

Tue Apr 16, 2013, 07:11 PM

43. K&R

 

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