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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat’s Annoying the North Koreans? US policies.
Relations between the United States and North Korea have reached a nadir, and in most Western media reports it is the seemingly irrational harsh rhetoric emanating from North Korea that is to blame. Inexplicably, we are told, North Korea has chosen to raise tensions...As is often the case, the media present events in an isolated fashion as if arising suddenly and without cause.
One does not have to look very far back in time to discern what is troubling the North Koreans. In recent months, the Obama Administration has taken a number of steps that the DPRK (Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, the official name for North Korea) has perceived as threatening.
The first step on the path to worsened relations came in October 2012, when the United States granted South Korea an exemption under the Missile Control Technology Regime, permitting it to extend the range of its ballistic missiles so that they could cover the entire territory of the DPRK. As a result, there was one set of terms that applied to every nation which had joined the treaty, and a different set applying only to South Korea, clearly for the purpose of targeting its neighbor to the north.
That same month, U.S. and South Korean military officials met for the annual Security Consultative Meeting, where they...developed a plan that they termed “tailored deterrence,” which calls for joint South Korean-U.S. military operations against North Korea in a number of scenarios, including minor incidents. Any “provocation” by North Korea is to be met with disproportionate force...To put it plainly, an attack could be launched on missile sites based on supposition, even when North Korean missiles are not in a position to fire.
On December 12, 2012, the DPRK launched an earth observation satellite into orbit, triggering condemnation by the Obama Administration, which charged that the flight was a disguised ballistic missile test...Interestingly, on the same day... India, another nuclear power, test fired a ballistic missile without American officials voicing a complaint...
With the passage of UN Security Council resolution 2087 on January 22, 2013, new sanctions were imposed on North Korea, despite the fact that the international outer space treaty grants the right to explore space to “all states without discrimination of any kind.” North Korea reacted angrily to being singled out as the only nation on earth denied the right to launch a satellite. The DPRK was disinclined to acquiesce in the imposition of additional sanctions, when its economy was already reeling from existing sanctions. A DPRK Foreign Ministry spokesman pointed out that by ramming the resolution through the Security Council, the United States had violated the UN Charter, which states “the Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members...”
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/04/09/whats-annoying-the-north-koreans/
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Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Which is not the case.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)Just not very conventional.
Every time they throw a tantrum, they get something. So what is to prevent them from throwing tantrums, self restraint?
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)that they are truly absolutely out of their goddamn minds bonkers.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... I got to take care of some crazy people (we're just not allowed to call them that). They never get what they want -- usually they get tranq'd and sleep in their own urine.
NK is ... as they say ... "crazy as a fox"
Neoma
(10,039 posts)
sir pball
(5,340 posts)Didn't have nukes.
holdencaufield
(2,927 posts)... how much worse could a nuke be?
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)A relic of Soviet interventionist policy that has somehow persisted long past its expiration. I'm not sure there is any other country that could be considered an analog.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)JoongAng Daily reported last month that North Korean leader Kim Jong Il, during his surprise visit to China in May, received Beijing’s promise to provide 200,000 tons of fertilizer for free. The South Korean newspaper also noted that Beijing, as part of a comprehensive arrangement, would sell 500,000 tons of corn at half price.
Yet China did not hand out the discount without getting something back. In return, the North granted Beijing rights to the country’s increasingly valuable deposits of rare-earth minerals in northeastern Musan. China will get half of the mined minerals free and pay market rates for the remaining portion. The Chinese will bear the cost of building roads leading to the mines and provide mining equipment.
This complex deal highlights the increasing interaction between the mighty People’s Republic of China and the destitute Democratic People’s Republic of Korea. Beijing is using its economic leverage to make North Korea into a Chinese colony. The North may even end up as one of Beijing’s provinces. Analysts assume the two Koreas will eventually reunify, but the North is more likely to be drawn into China’s orbit instead.
Trade between China and North Korea increased from $370 million in 1999 to $3.47 billion in 2010. Now, more than half of the North’s international commerce is with China, up from 25 percent in 1999. Chinese aid jumped from $400 million in 2004 to $1.5 billion in 2009, and some say it doubled in 2010. In recent years, Chinese investment has skyrocketed. Premier Wen Jiabao’s trip to Pyongyang in October 2009, ostensibly to celebrate 60 years of diplomatic ties between the two nations, marked the beginning of a new phase in Beijing’s support. Since that well-publicized visit, China has accelerated its penetration of the North’s economy with a series of high-profile investments.
Last December, for example, a “private” Chinese enterprise signed a $2 billion investment pact to build, in its first phase, three additional piers as well as a highway and railroad from Jilin province in China to the nearby Rajin-Sonbong economic zone in North Korea’s Rason, a port where the Tumen River empties into the Sea of Japan.
http://www.thedaily.com/page/2011/09/14/091411-opinions-column-china-colony-chang-1-2/
treestar
(82,383 posts)Yes, they were all insane.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)"Hannah one, Hannah two..."
Was waiting for it.
Figured they just couldn't refrain from coming to the aid of those insane North Korean despots, just a matter of time.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)than any other head of state is.
treestar
(82,383 posts)These people were/are significantly delusional, full of delusions of grandeur, and abused their people.
And so does the Kim family. They have isolated the country and starve the people. There is no defending these people or claiming they are no worse than other heads of state.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)yours is the dumbest post of all time because it demonstrates your reading problem.
redgreenandblue
(2,125 posts)The word "insane" means something and it is not equivalent to "ruthless" or "evil". You are conflating mental illness with malevolent intentions or selfishness.
Kaddafi probably was not insane. Neither was Saddam, nor was Hitler for the longest time of his reign, or Stalin or G.W. Bush or Nixon or Ronald Reagan. About the leaders of North Korea I am not sure, but it seems likely that they are not insane either.
There is a theory that sociopaths and narcissists are over-represented in positions of power, but this is not the same as "insane" in the sense of being in-capable of calculated behavior. A truly "insane" person would not be capable of leading a country. It doesn't take mental illness for a person to be an asshole.
treestar
(82,383 posts)was not speaking of clinically insane.
Yet these individuals may all have been. Kaddafi could well have been diagnosible. Hitler had to have been by any common sense. Bush, Nixon and Reagan are people I oppose politically but would in no way mention them in the same sentence as Hitler or Kaddafi or any of the Kims.
RudynJack
(1,044 posts)Kim Il Jong shot three holes-in-one on his first golf outing.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)The DPRK equivalent of the Joint Chiefs make the important decisions. At least we think so.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)Am I on the right track?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Germinated in the Education Forum for a while.
cali
(114,904 posts)yes, yes. the only thing troubling NK is the evil U.S.
Typical crap from counternutdaily.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)things mentioned in the article happened.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)davidn3600
(6,342 posts)This isn't about being fair to both sides. We picked a side in this fight a long time ago and signed treaties committing ourselves to that side.
It is what it is. We are not exactly looking out for Kim Jong Un's best interest here. This is a communist dictatorship that is starving their own people.
John2
(2,730 posts)should look at both sides with an open mind less they become the sheep of their Politicians just like some claim about the other side. He produced an article with sources, the only acceptable counter is to produce counter sources refuting them. I don't think demonizing the other side with personal insults is acceptable.
What you say is debatable. Communism is a political philosophy the same as Capitalism. North Korea or South Korea didn't invent either philosophy. There are several other countries in this World follow that philosophy other than North Korea, even though each may have their own versions. Countries that come to mind are China, Vietnam, Cuba and Venezuela. None of those countries are starving their people but have one distinction. They are not constantly attacked in the U.N. by the United States every time they sneeze for good reasons.
The claim is picked a side, but it could be seen as dictating sides. History does not show Japan or South Korea originally took sides with the United States but was forced. The entire Korean peninsula was under the control of the Japanese until they were defeated in World War II. Korea was only the prize of that defeat.
And to say the Russians intervened in Korea is not quite the true interpretation of how they got involved. It was the United States, Great Britain and France asked the Russians to intervene in Korea after the fall of Nazi Germany against the Empire of Japan. The Japanese were attacked on two fronts. On the continent by the Red Army and from the pacific by the United States, because those were the only two countries powerful enough militarily to do so.
That is how Kim's grandfather ended up in control of north Korea. His family fled from Korea after it came under Japanese control. Kim's grandfather ended up in the resistance and became a communist in the Red Army. That is also why his resistance force was better armed than the south Koreans at the beginning of the Korean War.
Korea was suppose to be reunited and given its freedom but the United States objected because of the dominant influence of Communists. The japanese also objected because of the animosity Koreans had at the atrocities the Japanese perpetrated on the korean people, such as forced slave labor and raping Korean women. So they had good motive for the U.S. intervening in Korea. When that happened, from the North Korean's view, it was their justification to invade. The U.S. had no troops on the mainland and the Russians had already left the Korean peninsula as agreed. The only well armed force in the peninsula was Kim's forces. That is when the U.S. took advantage of a Russian protest in the U.N. to get a resolution to enter the korean peninsula. It prevented North Korea from winning against their opposition in the South, who was seen as a dictator at the time. It is open for debate, so be feel free to place a rebuttal? We should not be slaves to rightwing propaganda. They don't want people to look at actual facts while they demonize the opposition.
whistler162
(11,155 posts)it is going to rain tomorrow and it is Americas fault that it is going to rain! Everything is Americas fault. The fall of the Roman Empire is Americas fault.
John2
(2,730 posts)but politicians that perpetrate illegal Wars like George W. Bush's fault. It was not Germany's fault either but the Nazi's fault. The people were only sheep and obeyed them. Nobody had the guts to question them. Americans should question their politicians, to prevent the same mistakes.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)This, of course, still leaves the South korea nowhere near the weapon's range enjoyed by the north. The author apparently didn't feel that was important.
developed a plan that they termed “tailored deterrence,” which calls for joint South Korean-U.S. military operations against North Korea in a number of scenarios, including minor incidents. Any “provocation” by North Korea is to be met with disproportionate force...
This is a welcome and overdue departure with our usual response of doing nothing when faced with North Korean aggression.
the DPRK launched an earth observation satellite into orbit, triggering condemnation by the Obama Administration, which charged that the flight was a disguised ballistic missile test
We remain at war with North Korea, and this was a ballistic missile test.
North Korea reacted angrily to being singled out as the only nation on earth denied the right to launch a satellite.
They are also the only nation on earth armed with nuclear weapons and actively working to fit them onto missiles. They are also the only nation on earth firing "test" shots across Japan, and openly threatening to nuke us and our allies. The idea that we should ignore this is laughable.
In any case it comes down to this: The entire world, including China, would like North Korea to join the rest of us and begin acting like a modern 21st century civilized nation. They prefer their stalinist theocracy. No one wants war because no one wants to try and clean up the mess this government has created, and if war comes it will be their doing. But they are rapidly running out of time. Once they can successfully fit nuclear weapons onto long range missiles their nonsense will become too dangerous to tolerate. They are racing towards their doom and they apparently do not realize it.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)As someone who lives in Korea and is familiar with the defense policy and the piece by Counterpunch was leftist crap. The guy who write it is a kook.
The author conveniently leaves out the repeated attacks by North Korea including the sinking of the ROKS Cheonan which killed 46 South Koreans and injured 56, and the shelling of Yeongpyeong Island that killed another 4 and injured 19.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Everyone always talks about Israel as some kind of great ally, but South Korea has remained at our side as a true friend for over half a century.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Come on. They treat their people horribly. They have a dictatorship with a cult-like basis. They are not the victims of anyone. They cause problems for other people and make threats. Don't make excuses for them.
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Remember how that worked out the last time.
Sid
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)...That explains a lot. 
dionysus
(26,467 posts)
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)SidDithers
(44,333 posts)Sid
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)(To the jury, this is a snarky reference to a troll named Hannah Bell, who stated that the two cities were alike.)
SidDithers
(44,333 posts)
octothorpe
(962 posts)
grantcart
(53,061 posts)
There were 9 people in attendance.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)grantcart
(53,061 posts)LOL
Maybe next time.
Throd
(7,208 posts)I can't think of a worse government.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Its government is quite possibly the worst one on the planet, and that's saying something.
tritsofme
(19,900 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)RZM
(8,556 posts)
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)
undergroundpanther
(11,925 posts)needs to stop,because profit is theft. America needs to leave other countries alone and GTFO.If the uber rich want to spread toxic capitalism and force control to people or countries that don't want it,let the corporate executives go over into whatever country's resources they wanna steal by themselves let them fight their own wars by themselves.The 1% need to GO AWAY.Lose money and power and STFU! I hate the 1% dragging us into wars,hurting the people here,hurting other countries,trying to tell other sovereign countries and human beings what to do.FUCK the arrogant 1% fuck the Banks,fuck them all.To HELL with profit that creates this rapacious greed! The top of the 'pyramid' needs to be thrown to the ground and broken.How long will we let the 1%'s greed and psychopathy and the bankster monsters use money itself be used as a tool of abuse? Fuck the corporations,they are just paper fictions. I despise the arrogant rich,they need to face the consequences,for their crimes,deeds and verbal abuse.Time yet to drag out the guillotine or are the citizens able to take more abuse from the banks and 1 % assholes still.I look forward to seeing the top 1% fall apart and die in a gutter,hated.I don't give a crap which counties,1% are doing this shit,they ALL need a come uppance.We can live fine without corporations,psychopath leaders and profit-theft.
tritsofme
(19,900 posts)Unreconstructed Stalinist apologists upthread, and then this. Wow.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)in a smoky room. Or something. But the scary guillotine line creeps me out.
Throd
(7,208 posts)
FrodosPet
(5,169 posts)And then a NEW group will be the 1% and we should chop THEIR heads of.
And then a NEW group will be the 1% and we should chop THEIR heads of.
And then a NEW group will be the 1% and we should chop THEIR heads of.
Wash. Rinse. Repeat.
DisgustipatedinCA
(12,530 posts)Threats don't get much more serious than the actual, literal nuclear option. I might have agreed with more of your article had this belligerent nation not actually threatened a nuclear holocaust.
cliffordu
(30,994 posts)Nice.
TimberValley
(318 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)and Seoul (WHERE MY SON IS) and it's all our fault and Un is fucking golden. That's what you think.
Do you even remember this?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong
The bombardment of Yeonpyeong was an artillery engagement between the North Korean military and South Korean forces stationed on Yeonpyeong Island on 23 November 2010.[5] Following a South Korean artillery exercise in waters in the south, North Korean forces fired around 170 artillery shells and rockets at Yeonpyeong Island, hitting both military and civilian targets.[6][7][8]
The shelling caused widespread damage on the island, killing four South Koreans and injuring 19. South Korea retaliated by shelling North Korean gun positions. The North Koreans subsequently stated that they had responded to South Korean shells being fired into North Korean territorial waters.[9]
The incident caused an escalation of tension on the Korean Peninsula and prompted widespread international condemnation of the North's actions. The United Nations declared it to be one of the most serious incidents since the end of the Korean War,[10] and by December 18 former UN ambassador Bill Richardson said tensions had escalated to become "the most serious crisis on the Korean peninsula since the 1953 armistice which ended the Korean War."[11]"
snip
So, don't you go pretending that history starts at just any old point you wish it to. There are reasons form the moves we have made.
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)If you're gonna talk up about how the mean ol' US is picking on North Korean with their annual exercises with South Korea, might as well throw a little more propaganda out there.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)site directed by Michel Chossudovsky, an anti-semite according to Wikipedia. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky
"A 2005 article in The Jewish Tribune has criticized GlobalResearch.ca as "rife with anti-Jewish conspiracy theory and Holocaust denial." B'nai Brith Canada had complained that there were comments on a forum moderated by Chossudovsky that questioned how many Jews died in the holocaust. Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.[26] The same article also reported that B'nai Brith Canada wrote a letter to the University of Ottawa asking for the university "to conduct its own investigation of this propagandist site."[26]
In a 2006 op-ed by Terry O'Neill in the conservative Canadian news magazine, Western Standard, Chossudovsky was included on the list of "Canada's nuttiest professors, those whose absurdity stands head and shoulders above their colleagues."[27] Listed alongside Chossudovsky were Sunera Thobani, Shannon Bell, John McMurtry, Shadia Drury, Michael Keefer,[28]Taiaiake Alfred, Leo Panitch, Kathleen Mahoney, Thomas Homer-Dixon, Sophie Quigley, and Joel Bakan. Specifically, the op-ed referred to GlobalResearch.ca as "anti-U.S. and anti-globalization"[27] and criticized Chussodovsky's thesis and views — namely: that the U.S. had knowledge of the 911 attacks before they happened; that Washington had weapons that could influence climate change; and lastly, that the large banking institutions are the cause of the collapse of smaller economies — as "wild-eyed conspiracy theories".[27]
I chose not to link to the site itself because it is batshit.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)DevonRex
(22,541 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)Nope, you witch-hunted the person who wrote the counterpunch article, who is not the director.
you missed this part of Michel Chossudovsky's bio when you pulled the 'anti-semite' charge off wikipedia: he's jewish.
He is professor of economics (emeritus) at the University of Ottawa. Chossudovsky has been a visiting professor internationally, and has been an advisor to governments of developing countries. In 1999, Chossudovsky joined the Transnational Foundation for Peace and Future Research as an adviser. Chossudovsky is a signatory of the Kuala Lumpur declaration to criminalize war. He is the author of The Globalization of Poverty and The New World Order (2003) and America's "War on Terrorism" (2005) and Towards a World War III Scenario: The Dangers of Nuclear War (2011).
Based at the University of Ottawa from 1968 he is founder, editor, and director of the Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), located in Montreal, Canada. It is "committed to curbing the tide of globalisation and disarming the new world order". CRG maintains the website GlobalResearch.ca which is critical of United States foreign policy and NATO, as well as theories concerning the September 11 attacks in 2001 and the war on terror, media disinformation, poverty and social inequality, the global economic crisis, and politics and religion. Chossudovsky was profiled in the Ottawa Citizen in an article by Juliet O'Neill.
Chossudovsky responded that there was a disclaimer that the website was not to be held responsible for the views expressed in the forum, and he had the comment removed. He also said that he was of Jewish heritage and would be one of the last people to condone antisemitic views.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Chossudovsky
Smears of anti-semitism, red-baiting, witch-hunting -- not one 'critic' here has actually addressed the material in the article. They can't. The events noted are facts. You can argue with the analysis, but you can't argue that those things didn't happen.
Yes, very creepy.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)You don't 'address' the concerns of the lunatic fringe that publishes this tripe anymore than you spend time debunking Batboy.
You laugh.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Have you ever come across Global Research or its director? I'm trying to figure out if its truly antisemitic and totally bats hit or if it's regarded as semi-fringe. Oh, and my son passed the Bar Exam. First try. So we're pretty happy. It was a nightmare. The power went out during the exam itself. It was during a blizzard. The exam software failed because of the power failure. They had to actually write their essays by hand. How long has it been since anybody had to do that? Or had to grade exams like that.
Response to DevonRex (Reply #69)
SidDithers This message was self-deleted by its author.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)semitism seems to be moderated/edited out.
It's a catch-all site for left-leaning CT, and the forums are a hoot.
Congratulations to your son!!! I had to handwrite my essays because my computer failed. It was agony, but I passed!!
The night I found out I passed I was taken out by a very good friend to dinner. I'm told we had a great time.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)Oh, no!! So you know exactly how bad that was. You deserved your celebration and it was well worth the next day's headache.
That's the impression I got of the site. Some of its links are really strange. The North Korea love is bizarre but they seem to just recycle the same scare garbage over and over again.
I followed some of the links and people a little too far. Felt like I was back in the Cold War all over again. Like I walked into a John Le Carre novel or something. I don't recommend it.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)"The enemy of my enemy is not my friend, and may be batshit crazy."
Also, frankly, a lot of the farthest Left are simply uncomfortable with representative democracy and seek the dictator because they assume that fewer people in power means that the 'right' types of policy will be implemented.
DevonRex
(22,541 posts)who lives in Seoul is not my favorite person right now. 
Response to DevonRex (Reply #49)
HiPointDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)but anyone who is aware of North Korea's efforts to develop nuclear weapons, who chooses to regard the launch of a satellite as being entirely peaceful, and not aimed at development of ICBM delivery platforms for those nuclear weapons, is not a member of the reality-based community.
grantcart
(53,061 posts)Go Trotsky!