Why are so many gun owners racist?

[hepkat]

Is it just the south that skews the findings?

[libodem]

1. Paranoia

My best guess.

[JI7]

2. or why are so many racists gun owners ?

[Scuba]

73. A much better question.

[LAGC]

3. It's mostly just the South. (n/t)

[Fawke Em]

14. Uh.. no.

:WTF:

[cordelia]

75. Wrong.

[hepkat]

4. Gun orgs are promoting the idea that gun safety is racist

confusing

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. Historically gun control has clear racist and classist roots.

Whether it was in Alabama, California, or NYC. Even today in places like NYC, civilian gun ownership is mostly for well to do whites.

Yes there are racist gun owners, but there are also GLBT gun owners, minority gun owners, and women gun owners too.

[MrSlayer]

5. A lot of people are racist.

Gun owners or not, urban or rural. That's my experience anyway.

[BlueCaliDem]

6. Racism is one symptom of innate fear.

If you don't make enough money or have a shitty job while Pablo has a better position, racism will always rear its ugly head. People who are overt racists need to feel superior to other people. Look how people cower when you're marching around with an AK-47 or AR-15. That only tells me you're insecure and constantly in a state of fear.

[hepkat]

7. so the theory is that racism leads to gun ownership

racism offers people a ton of reasons to arm themselves to the teeth.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

9. There are lots of different people who choose to own firearms for any number of reasons

As a black man who legally carries a gun, are you saying I am a racist?

[hepkat]

15. A high correlation does not mean 100%

Why do you carry a gun? Are not aware that you less safe as result?

[Recursion]

28. Personally I only carry on my grandfather's farm in west TX

I would be much less safe without a gun there, since I am neither a snake charmer nor a coyote charmer.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. What high correlation?

That racists own guns does not mean that all gun owners are racist. Racists also own cars, is there a strong likelihood that your average car owner is racist?

Given my background and training I am markedly safer carrying than not.

I've covered it in the past put you are kind of new here. Short version is I live in the twigs (well past the sticks) in the SoCal desert. I also ride a motorcycle as my primary means of transportation. I carry a mixed load in a revolver (ball/hollow point/snake shot) with some rounds on the bike in case I go down since I could be there a while. I rarely carry otherwise.

[hepkat]

33. I never said all gun owners were anything

But the fact is that racists are more likely to own guns and own more guns.

Why is that?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. Most of the racists I have known, particularly growing up, did not have any guns

and most of them were not white either...

[Eleanors38]

44. You mention "high correlation." What study supports this?

[friendly_iconoclast]

55. I suspect they were speaking "ex recto"...

[Fawke Em]

17. Thank you.

I'm a Southern woman married to a Northern (Bostonian) man who was in the Army.

We own no guns, even though we were both professionally trained (I was a reporter who covered cops and went through firearms training at the police academy for a story).

We do, however, own five dogs. No one has ever broken into our house and the dogs aren't gonna shoot my kids. Unless, by shoot, you mean, lick and wallow them.

You as a black man are just as stereotyped as us Southerners are, just in a different way.

[olddots]

40. really hep daddio

[Eleanors38]

42. You mention "findings." Could you post a link?

[Demo_Chris]

10. I suspect that you are simply a troll...

Trying to lure people into joining you in posting idiocy.

In any case, this kind of nonsense has no place on any legitimate discussion forum.

[hepkat]

13. So you don't support the 1st ammendment

just the second one right?

[Demo_Chris]

31. I support them all -- not that this has anything to do with my post.

I am not particularly interested in discussing the 2nd or gun control on either side. The topic doesn't particularly interest me -- poverty and social justice are more my thing.

[beevul]

90. Strictly speaking, you have no first amendment rights on DU.

Its a privately owned political discussion board.

That, and the fact that the first amendment protects your right to free speech from government interference, not private parties.

Civics 101.

[apocalypsehow]

11. Short answer (IMO): they lost the Civil War. Then they lost the subsequent Civil Rights struggle

100 years later.

If you look historically at the rise of the "RKBA enthusiast" movement and all this bullshit NRA-inspired nonsense about the 2nd amendment, you will find it coincides about exactly with the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the Voting Rights Act of 1965, and the Fair Housing Act of 1968.

The racists lost their precious Jim Crow society, so they started fondling guns as compensation. And they fondle those guns not for "freedom" or the "2nd amendment" or any of that other diversionary happy horseshit - they do so because they hate and fear people of color, and want to "put them in their place." In the past they had the racist, Jim Crow law on their side: but those days are OVER - thank God. Now, they want to exercise White Privilege to make every "RKBA enthusiast" his own Jim Crow-enforcer-cum-lynch-mob-practicioner: George Zimmerman is the hero and role model of every single "pro gun progressive"* poster in our very own Gungeon, not to mention the entire NRA and the "RKBA enthusiast" movement at large.

There is a reason so many of our "pro gun progressives"** right here at DU so hate and snarl and get so worked up about my sig line: it's spot-on truth, and stokes their scarcely-veiled racial fears and guilt's their White Privilege consciences. They simply can't stand it.

Without the pervasive presence of ongoing racism and White Privilege in our society, there would be no "RKBA" or "pro-2nd amendment" movement.

Period.

*( )

**( )

[Fawke Em]

20. My short answer to this is:

We never talk about the Civil War.

Seriously.

You watch too much TV.

[apocalypsehow]

32. Actually, you *have* no answer, as the facts presented are irrefutable. Dismissed as such. n/t.

[Fawke Em]

77. No. I think I showed you up as a fool.

Do you live in the South?

If you do, you'd know we never talk about the Civil War. It only comes up on message boards - mostly from people from the North who think we live and die by the fact that the South lost the Civil War... but, um... we don't. It NEVER comes up in any conversation.

If you don't, you're blowing shit out of your ass.

[Go Vols]

51. +1

[rightsideout]

12. Wasn't the whole idea for the 2nd Ammendment to prevent slave uprisings?

Well, that was one thing I heard besides the tyrannical government thing. Not sure what to believe.

But yea, I notice some of the ones whining the most about loosing their guns also hate Obama or say he's a Kenyan and a Muslim. Plus the increase in supremacy groups that started after Obama took office, all those guys are heavily interested in guns or armed to the hilt. I think alot of the hatred towards Obama is deep seated resentment a dark skinned fellow is in office.

It must make them really mad. Not only is he a Democrat, he's also colored.

[Recursion]

25. That's as reductionist and silly as the "the 2nd amendment lets us overthrow the govt" nonsense

The nature and purpose of the right to bear arms was as complicated in 1789 as it is in 2013; many people believed in it and wanted it protected for many different reasons.

[kysrsoze]

16. Fear and complete misunderstanding of anyone different, particularly brown people. Cowards.

[Go Vols]

18. no

we are not racist in the south.I own 30+ guns and no problem.


I am old and got most as presents.

[hepkat]

21. You are not representative

Why do you think that because you are different the data is wrong.

[Fawke Em]

26. I'm also from where this poster is from.

I own no guns, but we're not racist.

Funny, we're both on some obscure posting board.

I actually know several people in my area who are on this board. It's rural v. urban thing. It's just the South is still more rural than urban. Look at PennsyTucky. If it weren't for New York, Pennsylvania would be red.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

38. What data do you actually have?

Racist own guns. They also own dogs, cars, houses, etc. There is no correlation between gun ownership and someones racial attitutdes

[Eleanors38]

45. You mention "data." What source do you have for this?

[Pointy_n_sharp]

69. Which data are you referring to?

[Fawke Em]

22. Hey... if you're going to the O and W game, IM me.

The kids and I are going.

P.S. Not flirting. Happily married to a damn Yankee who doesn't like UT football. Just wanna meet you and yours.

[hepkat]

19. I know gun rights people reject empirical data

But this is laughable.

Racists have higher rates of gun ownership and own many more guns than average.

The two things correlate. I'm wondering why.

[Go Vols]

23. So racist have

like 60 guns?

[hepkat]

27. Do you need for me to explain math?

Cause I'm willing.

Racist attitudes and number of guns owned are correlated.

that means if you ask a lot of people questions about racial attitudes and how many guns they own you find that racists have more guns.

[Go Vols]

29. I dont need you to explain

anything to me.

Thank you for the effort tho.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

52. Explain the math? Yes please.

I would like verifiable facts and figures. And show your work.

I'm not joking.

[friendly_iconoclast]

56. Don't expect any substantial reply. The term 'ex recto' applies...

[hepkat]

63. Go to an academic library

Read this article.

http://sf.oxfordjournals.org/content/64/2/473.short

[Recursion]

64. That studied gun ownership patterns among white males in Mississippi

Even granting that racism among white males in Mississippi is correlated to gun ownership, you are totally ignoring the significant proportion of gun owners who are not white males, to say nothing of gun owners who do not live in Mississippi.

(Hint: if you're taking data about racial attitudes from Mississippi, you're already starting with an outlying population.)

[hepkat]

71. You are demanding that I have a dataset and compute results for you

I do not have that. I don't need it. I have peer reviewed studies that taken together illuminate this subject sufficieintly.

If Gun Owner Death Cult would get out of the way, we could study this stuff more precisely.

In the meantime if you aren't willing to accept this research, none of which you have actually read throughly. I'm sorry I will not meet your standard of scientific certainty.

Meanwhile, I have established a basis for my arguments.

Gun ownership is correlated with racism.

Maybe go gather your own data and refute my claims. Or go do a google search and read some of the alternative theories and studies. Post them and I will pick them apart. Because I am afraid the rigorous standard you want to apply has not been acheived by any research in the field.

Measurement issues are huge in social science research even economics where things are more easily counted and defined.

[hepkat]

72. significant proportions of what?

23% of women own guns
18% of non whites

33% of whites
43% of males

2005 gallup call them ask them to crosstab for you.

I'm starting to think you just have an ideological commitment and have consumed too much gun propaganda.

[Eleanors38]

46. You mention "empirical data." What is your source?

[Recursion]

24. Ask yourself if this OP helps anything.

Really?

[hepkat]

34. conciousness matters

That's all.

[Recursion]

36. I'm a scientist. Can you show me your data?

That might make me less irritated with this OP; you've simply gratuitously asserted a correlation so far.

[hepkat]

53. The articles I've read are older and data is scant because of the NRA

But there is this article I've read synopsis of that is fairly recent

https://sites.google.com/site/emiliodepetrischauvin/research

“Fear of Obama: An Empirical study of the demand for guns and the US 2008 presidential election” (2011) -under review-
In this paper I study the demand for guns in the proximity of the US 2008 presidential election. Using monthly data constructed from futures markets on presidential election outcomes and a novel proxy for firearm purchases, I analyze how the demand for guns responds to the likelihood of Barack Obama being elected. My point estimates suggest the existence of a large Obama effect on the demand for guns: a 10-point increase in the probability of Obama being elected is associated with a 4.5 percent increase in the demand for guns. Moreover, this political effect is larger than the effect associated to the worsening economic conditions. Furthermore, I present empirical evidence consistent with the hypotheses that the unprecedented increase in the demand for guns would be partially driven by both a fear of a future Obama gun-control policy and racial prejudice. (last version)


Abstract
In this paper I study the demand for guns during the months sur-
rounding the US 2008 presidential election. Specically, I analyze how it
responds to information regarding the likelihood of Barack Obama being
elected. I present empirical evidence that not only the party aliation
but also the identity of a presidential candidate would matter in terms
of what the individuals expect regarding future administration's policies.
After controlling for state xed eects and state level-time varying covari-
ates accounting for economic climate, my point estimates not only suggest
the existence of a nationwide democrat eect, but more importantly and
in particular, they show the existence of a large Obama eect on the de-
mand for guns. Moreover, this political eect is larger than the eect
associated to the worsening economic conditions. Furthermore, I present
empirical evidence consistent with the hypothesis that the unusual in-
crease in the demand for guns would be partially driven by fears of an
Obama's future gun-control policy. But even more striking, intolerance
against African-Americans would have also played a dierentiating role.

[Recursion]

54. That relates new gun purchases to distrust of Obama

Please show something that relates gun ownership to racism.

Heck, I'll accept this: relate new gun purchases to current gun ownership, and distrust of Obama to racism.

Here's the thing about science: you shouldn't let what you already think is true cloud how you look at data.

[hepkat]

59. And yet racial prejudice is tested also and has a significant relationship

So I'm not without recent empirical evidence supporting my contention.

[Recursion]

60. To what? To new gun purchases? Even granting that, it doesn't support your thesis

You would have to correlate new gun purchases to current gun ownership, and even then you'd have to crosstab to show the appropriate orthogonality to carry the correlation through.

[hepkat]

62. That's a data access problem

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2012/12/gun_violence_research_nra_and_congress_blocked_gun_control_studies_at_cdc.html

I'm sure you also understand the problem of self report data on something socially unacceptable like racial prejudice.

I'm a social scientist and I'm capable of picking apart any research study. There are always problems and criticisms that can be levied.

If you want to deny a relationship enjoy yourself. How do you feel about people that deny global warming?

[hepkat]

57. and these

http://books.google.com/books?id=xJ3Y2-CHYfMC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=prejudice+and+gun+ownership&source=bl&ots=sCN5HlJeXD&sig=4-WFeOoMh6CsG6yHmkGwjWZBCi8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Q6JvUY3PFKSHygGHvIGwCQ&ved=0CEIQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=prejudice%20and%20gun%20ownership&f=false

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1986-26977-001

[demwing]

76. "gun owners are racist" =/= "racists own guns"

Are you truly confused, or pushing an agenda?

[Fawke Em]

78. Look, I realize the NRA is crap, but they don't stop

academics from studying such things, even if they tried.

Your OP is also crap. You have no evidence. You "studied" things.

I can say that I studied your posts and found that posters who use forms of "hip" and "cat" as their user names are idiots. Doesn't mean anything.

[Go Vols]

37. Kiss my Ass

you obliviously know nothing of the South and its people.

[hepkat]

41. I know quite a bit about the south and it's people

You don't seem to understand what I'm talking about tho.

[Recursion]

43. I would still like to see these data you're talking about (nt)

[pecwae]

74. You may think you do,

but there's something familiar here.

[Union Scribe]

39. ...what does that mean? nt

[Eleanors38]

48. Hope you wake up.

[Eleanors38]

47. It would appear the poster is deeply prejudiced toward millions if people. nt

[Separation]

50. What findings?

You keep talking of statistics and data. Where is this data, is this just a personal opinion, or do you really have data?

[hepkat]

61. up thread I link abstracts and book excerpts

[Pointy_n_sharp]

58. Why are left handed gingers racist?

What's the point?

[Separation]

65. Please watch this video.

[Skittles]

66. THAT'S PART OF THEIR PARANOIA

YOU KNOW, THE BLACK MAN!!!

[Deep13]

67. Don't forget, one of the main purposes of the 2nd Am. ...

...was to suppress slave and Indian revolts. In colonial Virginia at least citizenship was defined as a white men who owns a musket. The gun culture has its roots in racism.

[hepkat]

70. Getting historical

NRA created shortly after civil war.

NRA involved in creating all sorts of gun control legislation that was race based.

NRA had all kinds of racist origins and history.

Now NRA can call gun control racist because it deliberately created racially discriminate gun legislation.

But that info is qualitative and historical.

[Deep13]

89. I'm not talking about the NRA.

I'm talking about the origins of the American gun culture. A good book that touches on the subject is Kathleen Brown's Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs. It's mostly about the gendered history of slavery, but it also has a chapter on different definitions of citizenship, one being the Virginia white, male gun culture.

[hepkat]

68. Another Study

http://publicdata.norc.org:41000/GSS/DOCUMENTS/Bibliographies/Bib01723.htm

[Le Taz Hot]

79. REALLY offensive post.

I'm not a fan of the NRA or the MIC but your claim is absurd and offensive. Not only to gun owners but to the South.

FAIL in so many ways.

[cali]

80. It used to be easier to get rid of the obvious ones.

[Le Taz Hot]

82. 134 posts.

There was a time he/she wouldn't have made it to a second post. (sigh)

[pintobean]

88. It appears they kept low

until they thought MIRT couldn't get them. Admin will have a look this morning.

eta - 3 hidden posts, at least 2 this morning.

[hepkat]

81. Backed by peer reviewed research tho

I'm not a troll and I'm not making this stuff up.

[Le Taz Hot]

87. Actually, that would be

"peer-reviewed research." The word "tho" is correctly spelled, "though" and, in this case, should have been preceded by a comma and followed by a period.

Let me know if I can be of any further assistance. I'm here to help.

[bowens43]

84. Being a southerner, it sounds pretty accurate to me. Sometimes truth is offensssive.

[hepkat]

86. thank you

It rings true for lots of people. I am not saying every single gun owner is a racist. I'm saying there is a relationship between racism and gun ownership.

Like there is an inverse relationship between IQ and Gun Ownership

[bowens43]

83. Parnoia , bigotry, fear and hatred are at the root of the gun culture/menatlity.

[The Link]

85. Why are so many white people racist?

Is it just that they are white that skews the findings?