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radiclib

(1,811 posts)
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:36 PM Apr 2013

Will this kid be tortured?

What say you, DU??


32 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Time expired
No, but he should be.
1 (3%)
Yes, and he should be
2 (6%)
No, and he shouldn't be
25 (78%)
Yes, but he shouldn't be
4 (13%)
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Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll
39 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Will this kid be tortured? (Original Post) radiclib Apr 2013 OP
A resounding NO. He shouldn't be. BlueCaliDem Apr 2013 #1
No. But he's gonna sing like a canary B2G Apr 2013 #2
Why else try to keep him ignorant of his constitutional rights as a citizen HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #3
He is a naturalized citizen sarisataka Apr 2013 #5
Yes, I accept that is probably true. HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #7
What makes you think he was conscious enough to hear them? Warpy Apr 2013 #8
How would an unconscious person represent a risk to Public Safety? HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #11
There is still plenty of time to Mirandize him Warpy Apr 2013 #14
Did you seen the arrest photos......he doesn't even know he is breathing... Historic NY Apr 2013 #9
The he couldn't meet the criteria required as a risk to Public Safety could he? HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #13
Yes. Warpy Apr 2013 #15
And so, by now having been stripped and put in hospital gown HereSince1628 Apr 2013 #16
You obviously don't know what happens in an ER when Warpy Apr 2013 #22
Do you have a link that says he for sure he WAS NOT read his Miranda rights? UnrepentantLiberal Apr 2013 #33
Yet another lame poll? longship Apr 2013 #4
Sorry, I don't think it's very complicated radiclib Apr 2013 #6
agreed.... chillfactor Apr 2013 #12
He should not be tortured, but he is no kid still_one Apr 2013 #10
No and they won't need to marlakay Apr 2013 #17
What kid? Pelican Apr 2013 #18
19 Is a Number Marking Passage of Time. It Has Nothing to Do With Actual Maturity. dballance Apr 2013 #23
It doesn't matter... Pelican Apr 2013 #25
I Think You Missed My Point dballance Apr 2013 #27
I'm thinking about it from a legal standard... Pelican Apr 2013 #29
there are certain things like killing people which i think people usually know is not ok before 19 JI7 Apr 2013 #26
Yes, which I said in my post. /nt dballance Apr 2013 #28
Agree marions ghost Apr 2013 #34
He will likey be executed. I am against the death penalty but I admit he deserves to get it. hrmjustin Apr 2013 #38
WTF? BainsBane Apr 2013 #19
No, he probably doesn't even have any info to torture him for either ShadowLiberal Apr 2013 #20
It really bothers me that I can't honestly say no. sadbear Apr 2013 #21
No, I think at best they are going to be trying to figure out his motive davidpdx Apr 2013 #24
Dick and w were torturers madokie Apr 2013 #30
This message was self-deleted by its author seaglass Apr 2013 #31
No. Torture has been proven not to work. nt MOTRDemocrat Apr 2013 #32
5. Nutso even to poll on this gulliver Apr 2013 #35
Fuck NO! Nobody should be tortured EVER! 6000eliot Apr 2013 #36
Yeah he SHOULD BE, but I wouldn't want a gov't that would listen to the likes of ME. El Fuego Apr 2013 #37
No, he will not be tortured LeftInTX Apr 2013 #39

BlueCaliDem

(15,438 posts)
1. A resounding NO. He shouldn't be.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:39 PM
Apr 2013

Surely our authorities know it's more effective to extract information without using any type of torture since all the relevant information we've ever gotten was done by NOT using any form of torture.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
3. Why else try to keep him ignorant of his constitutional rights as a citizen
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:42 PM
Apr 2013

by not reading him his Miranda warning?

The point seems to be to be able to use information recovered from 'interrogation' in the absence of an attorney.


sarisataka

(19,076 posts)
5. He is a naturalized citizen
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:45 PM
Apr 2013

he likely knows more about his Constitutional rights than natural born citizens

Warpy

(111,580 posts)
8. What makes you think he was conscious enough to hear them?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:50 PM
Apr 2013

There are a lot of reasons not to Mirandize a suspect on the scene. If he recovers, they can do it later in the hospital.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
11. How would an unconscious person represent a risk to Public Safety?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:57 PM
Apr 2013

Last edited Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:58 PM - Edit history (1)

THAT is the exception they are invoking, and I really don't think an unconcious or semi-concious person would qualify under that.

What the Obama administration wants is to look tough on terrorism. I understand that.

BUT a person isn't endowed with constitutional rights when someone reads them to a citizen. A person is endowed with those rights by BEING a citizen.

If they want to revoke his citizenship, there is a path for that. If they want to argue the person's actions speak to being an ENEMY of the state, that needs a determination by the CIC. Obama can do whatever the hell he wants under the Yoo woo that granted dictatorial powers to Dick Cheney and his sock puppet

Warpy

(111,580 posts)
14. There is still plenty of time to Mirandize him
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:59 PM
Apr 2013

as soon as the docs have done their work to stabilize him.

This is not a big deal, not yet.

Historic NY

(37,472 posts)
9. Did you seen the arrest photos......he doesn't even know he is breathing...
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:55 PM
Apr 2013

He will be treated and questioned at later time when and if he is able to respond.

Warpy

(111,580 posts)
15. Yes.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:00 PM
Apr 2013

Until they got him stripped down and made sure he wasn't carrying any sort of dangerous device, he was still a danger.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
16. And so, by now having been stripped and put in hospital gown
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:02 PM
Apr 2013

he should be read his Miranda warning?

Warpy

(111,580 posts)
22. You obviously don't know what happens in an ER when
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:31 PM
Apr 2013

a critically injured patient rolls in.

They have 48 hours to Mirandize him.

"The hearty laugh bespake the empty head." I don't know why I just remembered that particular line of verse...

longship

(40,416 posts)
4. Yet another lame poll?
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:42 PM
Apr 2013

Take a complicated situation and reduce it to a nauseating extreme. Put it a DU poll.

Sorry.

chillfactor

(7,602 posts)
12. agreed....
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 10:57 PM
Apr 2013

do remember that there are always posters who are wet blankets...I have seen several of them on threads this evening...they are ornery just to be ornery

marlakay

(11,571 posts)
17. No and they won't need to
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:02 PM
Apr 2013

Auto guy said he was scared and biting his nails a few days after bombing when he saw him.

I think the kid will tell all.

 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
23. 19 Is a Number Marking Passage of Time. It Has Nothing to Do With Actual Maturity.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:20 AM
Apr 2013

Knowing what we know today about brain development it's foolish to classify every person who reaches a certain age as an "adult." Yet that's what we do. Science has proven that the human frontal lobes of the brain, responsible for higher-order thinking and for risk/reward thinking doesn't fully develop until the mid-20's. So a 19 year-old is really not much more mature in their thinking than 12 year-old. The older brother, who was 26, really has no excuse. But it's highly likely that the older brother, for societal/familial reasons and because of the biological reasons I've stated, had undue influence over the younger brother.

I'm not saying the 19 year-old shouldn't be held responsible. He should be. He most certainly knew blowing people up is considered bad. I'm just saying he was easier to lead astray, particularly by his brother, than he would have been were he older.

 

Pelican

(1,156 posts)
25. It doesn't matter...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:12 AM
Apr 2013

If you can be "convinced" that blowing people up is ok once you have reached an age of reason then there is zero sympathy.

This is not a person who we should be interested in rehabilitating. His life should be long and miserable without an ounce of hope possible.

 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
27. I Think You Missed My Point
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:24 AM
Apr 2013

We should not be using the standard "age" of reason because you can't say that oh yesterday a person was 17 and today, their birthday, they're 18 so now they're automatically mature and totally culpable for everything. That's really silly if you think about it objectively.


 

Pelican

(1,156 posts)
29. I'm thinking about it from a legal standard...
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:15 AM
Apr 2013

Well, Johnny, you aren't quite as advanced socially as some other people so even though you set that bus of nuns and orphans on fire we are going to treat you differently.

At a certain point there has to be a cut off. How long does immaturity count? Would you try a 43 year old man as a juvenile because he wasn't as mature as others?

Society keeps pushing the age of adulthood further and further back until we have people in their late 20s and early 30s crying for their mom and dad to fix everything.

You know why they are immature? It's because we, as a society, tolerate it.

JI7

(89,334 posts)
26. there are certain things like killing people which i think people usually know is not ok before 19
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:19 AM
Apr 2013

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
34. Agree
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 07:54 AM
Apr 2013

This is not a "grown" man. He must be held responsible, but the fact that his older brother roped him in should be taken into consideration. He will certainly pay for his crimes. There is no doubt about that.

There are huge changes in maturity that go on between 19 and 25. It has a bearing on this case. But he will pay.

ShadowLiberal

(2,237 posts)
20. No, he probably doesn't even have any info to torture him for either
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:13 PM
Apr 2013

I doubt he even has any worthwhile information about any other terrorists/terrorist groups anyway. Anyone he has would probably already be well known by Russia, which seems likely to cooperate with us on this, since the country the kid is from hits them with terrorist attacks far more often then any western nation does.

And even if he did have useful information, torture is a bad way to go about getting that info, there's much better interrogation methods that have proven histories of getting far more accurate information with far less lies and made up stories to make the pain of torture stop.

sadbear

(4,340 posts)
21. It really bothers me that I can't honestly say no.
Fri Apr 19, 2013, 11:15 PM
Apr 2013

We should be able to say absolutely not in America, but I don't think we can.

davidpdx

(22,000 posts)
24. No, I think at best they are going to be trying to figure out his motive
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 03:37 AM
Apr 2013

and whether there is anyone else out there who was helping them. I'd think those are the only two things they would be interested in at this point. Beyond that, there's not much else to do but let process play out.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
30. Dick and w were torturers
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 06:45 AM
Apr 2013

We on the other hand are not. No this kid should not be tortured. The living shit kicked out of him by one of the family members of the dead or missing limbs or just injured yes, tortured no.

Response to radiclib (Original post)

El Fuego

(6,502 posts)
37. Yeah he SHOULD BE, but I wouldn't want a gov't that would listen to the likes of ME.
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 11:03 AM
Apr 2013

Because at the moment I'm one of the angry pitchfork-wielding mob. But in a civilized society, a government and it's laws should protect us all from mob rule.

LeftInTX

(25,995 posts)
39. No, he will not be tortured
Sat Apr 20, 2013, 05:03 PM
Apr 2013

Although he will be charged with terrorism, the interrogators know that he has the profile of a common criminal. He's not going to be a tough nut to crack.
It will probably take awhile for him to reveal to authorities everything he knows. However, the good cop routine will tend to work in this case.

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