General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs the goal reasonable gun control laws, or is the goal saving lives?
What if I told you there was a place in America that in 1990 was known as the murder capital of the world? What if I told you that while endless murders and violence happened here, it was 100% illegal for anyone other than an on-duty police officer to have a gun? What if I told you that since then, it is now legal to own a gun in this place? What if I told you that today, homicides have declined by 80.591 %
Well this is a real place, and this really did happen, and it happened in none other than our nation's capitol, Washington, D.C.
In 1990, Washington, D.C. was a national embarrassment, and one of the worst crime-ridden cities in America. There were nearly 500 murders in the city in 1990, out of a population of only 600,000 people. Today, there are less than 100.
Murders aren't the only thing that declined. Since 1995, there has been a startling 50% decline in violent crime in Washington, D.C., and a 49% decline in property crimes.
How did all this happen? Well, one thing that didn't fix this was gun control. It was illegal for anyone other than an on-duty police officer to have a gun in Washington, D.C., and that had been the case since 1976. This changed when the Supreme Court ruled on the Heller decision in 2008. And these declines in homicides, violent crime, and theft didn't happen after 2008, but has been declining continually since 1990. This means that the few residents who can now legally own a gun in Washington, D.C. in no way caused this decline either.
What happened is that there was a massive effort to renovate and rebuild the city. Whole ghettos were replaced with thriving business districts. Social decay was replaced with a re-emergence of the city. Whole parts of the city were completely reconstructed. It was urban renewal that produced an 80% decrease in homicides, most of which were committed by people using guns.
In this debate over gun control, we risk losing our perspective. It does not matter if you believe that gun control will solve this problem, or if you think more guns is the solution. Both sides are wrong. What will solve this problem is using the same approach that Washington, D.C. used. Urban renewal.
How many cities in America look like they're in a war zone? Camden, Chicago, Baltimore, Detroit. These places look like war zones because they are. They are examples of what societal collapse looks like.
The United States is quite unique in the developed world, in that we have so many of the problems we do. Whether it be gun violence, or low literacy rates, poor math scores, high teenage pregnancy rates, high obesity rates, high levels of distrust among neighbors, or the largest rate of incarceration in the entire world.
All these problems are linked by the same cause. This is what poverty and income inequality does to a society. And the United States has the kind of income inequality of Zimbabwe.
If our goal is really to save lives, then we need to consider taking a different approach. I think the example of Washington, D.C. shows us a way towards that goal.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
pkdu
(3,977 posts)done.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)street crime is not the problem.
The problem is the killerperps who kill for fame and fun (like in Boston), along with the
haterprerps who use the gun for political reasons (killing of Meek Dr. Tiller, and then having a network of rightwing extremist hate groups aiding and abetting), conspiracy theorists with warped ideas of prior events (that OkCity McCoward), Paul Blart vigilantes/anarchists like Zimmerman in Florida who killed an unarmed man.
Killing people for thrills and kills in movie theatres, town halls, schools,everywhere else.
Those are the problems with guns that are most important.
Economics play ZERO in any of the above.
But a gun played 100% in each and every one of them
The NRA is complicit in each and every gun event, so is the gun seller and manufacture.
guns are WMDs and terror instruments.
Petty street crime can be solved with money
Gun problem can only be solved with a 100% total reinterpretation of the 2nd, and the getting rid of the NRA, or the designation of the NRA as a terror org.
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)By far, the greatest problem with guns is street crime. In 2012, there were 16 mass shooting events, which was an incredibly high number of such events for a given year, which left 88 people dead. Out of the 12,000 who are killed by guns every year, this amounts to only 0.73% of total firearm homicides.
Mass shooting events are very rare, but tragically, they are becoming far more common. What we should notice about these events is that, unless I'm mistaken, each and every single one of these events involve teens or young adults with a well documented history of mental illness.
We don't have the luxury of looking at their medical files, but the most common mental illness is depression, and one of the most commonly prescribed medication for depression is selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRI's). SSRI's in teens and young people have already been linked to violent and suicidal behavior. We need to investigate if SSRI's were used by each of these mass shooters.
It seems to me, that if we want to prevent these kind of events, the best solution is to have a health care system in this country is that is universal, single payer, and includes mental health care, including regular physical and mental health check ups for every citizen in the country. We do a very poor job of treating mental illness in this country, and we need to solve this problem.
This is also an income inequality issue as well: the United States has a mental illness rate that is 3 times higher than the most equal nations like Japan and Sweden. It's been well documented that psychopaths tend to grow up in unstable and chaotic households. However, if a child is genetically at risk of developing psychopathy, they often will not develop it if they grow up in a stable and loving household.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)People are obsessed with banning firearms the underlying problems with violence wont be solved.
Thank you for adressing why our cities that have more than 250k pop are so violent.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Thanks to toughest gun laws in the nation and Mayor Mike Bloomberg.
Shame that in Nov. someone else will be taking over the job.
May Ms.Quinn follow the same agenda.
If the Boston hateperp thrillkillseekers had attempted to come to NYC to party, they would not have gotten past the bridges/tunnels.
AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)on a selective and arbitrary basis without reasonable cause by your hero Mayor Michael let's-promote-grabbing-guns-in-other-States-from-law-abiding-citizens Bloomberg.
Isn't Bloomberg's anti-Constitutional stance regarding firearm ownership the reason why you are falsely stating that "New York City is one of the safest places to be in America today"?
NY City is not only unsafe for those who are subject to racial profiling but it is also unsafe for Occupy Wall St protestors.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)The NYC crime rate began to plunge at the same time the other urban centers, as well as the overall crime rates, plunged. Starting in about 1990. In about 1994, federal funding put about 50,000 more cops on the streel, and NYC Mayor Dinkins (spelling?) had put in a major program to expand the NYPD, which came to fruition under Mayor Nine Eleven.
Our common liberal values caused the crime rate to plunge nationwide. Not gun-control laws, but environmental and woman's-rights laws.
In the early 70's, fuel-efficiency standards and automotive pollution limits went into effect; catalytic converters became standard equipment. Because of the converters, leaded gas became obsolescent almost immediately. The US switched over to unleaded gasoline, and within a short period of time the air being breathed by children and pregnant women was pretty much free of lead.
Lead, as you know, causes brain damage that increases anti-social behavior and a laundry-list of other developmental problems.
Also that the same time, abortion was legalized, and only a few years before hormonal birth control had become widespread. Women could now control when then gave birth, resulting in fewer instances of children being born into situations where they were more likely to become violent criminals.
So, with birth control widespread and airborne lead sharply diminished, the generation born in the early-to-mid 70's (my generation) came to about age 15 (15 to 24 are the prime violence-crime-committing years of a criminal's life) with much less of a tendency to be violent criminals.
And the crime rate plunged in half in a decade.
The opposite is true as well. In the post-WW2 era, the population exploded, as did the highway system and the number of cars on the road. Kids born in from, say '47 to '60, were breathing in lots of lead as the American car culture spread in lockstep with the expansion of the middle class and suburbia. 15 years later, say '62 to '75, you can see the violent crime rate start to climb. It more than doubled, actually, as the Baby Boomers hit adulthood.
None of this had to do with guns or magazines or protruding pistol grips or anything... it had to do in huge part with the tendency of the most violent-prone segment of the population (people age 15-24) to commit violence.
Now, of course there were other things that affect the rate as well... the War on Drugs, Prohibition, the economy, but again, none of that happens to do with hardware or Mayor Bloomberg, the Wall Street mayor.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)n/t
premium
(3,731 posts)
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)One of the more popular forms of "argumentum ad hominem" among folks who can't muster an actual cogent argument...
rdharma
(6,057 posts)
DanTex
(20,709 posts)a relatively low homicide rate.
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)If guns are so inherently harmful, why doesn't he? Instead he'd prefer to send police batons upon the heads of Occupy protesters. Bloomberg is the mayor for the top 1%.
Progressive dog
(7,569 posts)
tblue
(16,350 posts)under control, let's get weapons of destruction off our streets. We can't wait until nobody's crazy before we stop allowing them to get guns.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)That the people in our unrban cities causing the violence will take up scrapbooking after they handover their firearms lol ha ha
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Are you implying that "unrban" people are different from you somehow? Can you let me know what the main difference is?
And I don't think you are giving scrapbooking enough credit here. I'm guessing you poke holes in paper for fun too, you just think that a paper punch doesn't make enough loud noises while you do it, right?
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)The highest per capita homicide and other violence can be found in cities with a pop greater than 250k.
If you want to make the biggest difference that's where you start.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Go on, you can be honest here.
Drugs, gangs , basically what the OP has stated.
Basically what people have been saying for years....
Pholus
(4,062 posts)Focus like a laser beam on the problem?
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)How about job training, investment, increased law enforcement......
Dont you pay attention to what the urban activist g ft oups are advocating for????
Pholus
(4,062 posts)For a while, given your low post count and misspellings, you pretty much seemed to be a troll using the "urban" equals black codeword.
Yes those things are solutions. Foreign Policy had an article about that just last month, hypothesizing how the murder rate in India dropped by almost a third in 30 years might be linked to increased economic opportunity. Of course, our murder rate nearly halved in the same amount of time, and economic opportunity for the average person here is still rather low - but it is still interesting to consider.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Using a phone and getting more than 4 hrs sleep a day I might care about my spelling. Oh, I have been consistant in my views on thus subject... you were just assuming that there was a racial component to my posts.
Pholus
(4,062 posts)graham4anything
(11,464 posts)but crime can be gotten rid of with money.
However, mass thrillkill and political meaning killings and terrorism can't be because there is always something for them to hate.
The only answer is what is is.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Who cares about the mafia? We have people getting killed over pot in my town on a regular basis.
Political killings, mass shootings and terrorism may grab all of the media attention they are only a very small fraction of the homicides in this country. They are even a small portion of the deaths caused by firearms.
Even the girl thay performed at Obama s inaguration was killed by gang members.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Who owns the drugs? The Mafia.
BTW-One's puny gun is not going to stop the Mafia or any gang.
Shoot a Mafia person, and well, the shooters days will be over, along with every other family member.
But are you saying let's not get rid of gun deaths unless 100% are?
OKAY, then you are saying what I say.
Reinterpret the 2nd and get all guns out of the street. Zero tolerance.
one can't have it both ways.
And make sure that reciprical poison pen amendment never gets in if one really care.
Quite simple to agree that a gun saves nothing.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Thinnk that the nortenos or the bulldofs are going to give up their guns and start helping old ladies cross the street?
Really?
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Thrillkill worries me. V Vigilantes worry me. Anarchists worry me. Arsonists who burn things down but have no idea the next day worry me.Hatecrime worries me. Fame seekers like the asssasssin of John Lennon worry me. All they need is hate and guns and other WMDs.
At least street crime is explanable. And that problem can be solved.
The others can be solved only one way.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Is a wmd?
I am for gun control.... reasonable gin control that is feasible and woukd actually work in the real world.
derby378
(30,262 posts)We know what their agenda is and can easily dismiss it. The rest of us realize there is much work to be done and little time to be cutesy about it.
I know I only have a few posts, but I've tried and I just can't hold back the sarcasm.
If a gun is a WMD, then Bush was justified in the Iraq war....
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)We leave people defenseless?
Would you prefer this 12 year old girl was dead?
Would you prefer this woman was dead?
Would you prefer this woman be dead?
The overwhelming problem with guns is street crime. That can be solved economically. Crazed mass shooters can be solved by reviewing their medical records, and doing a better job of regulating the medications they've been given. Political mass killing, like terrorism is a different subject entirely, but we should end our wars in the Middle East.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)That is the error of that thought above.
Us not being involved does not get rid of the problem.
Take Hitler for instance.
He did a fine job without the USA involved.
In fact, he would have kept going without the USA in it.
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)Terrorists are motivated by US foreign policy. Plain and simple. We would pay as much attention to the Middle East as we do to Africa if we got ourselves off of oil.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Do you think the USA is the only country in the world?
BTW, I agree we should also pay attention to Africa.
MORE security by the government. Zero by individuals.
You are correct. Did Japan attack us back then because they are terrorists?
BTW-never can we let a terrorist dictate our policy. That means they win.
The NRA is a terror org. and they are dictating policy and blackmailng our congress.
That is why I want Mike Bloomberg to give $10 more for each NRA dollar.
graham4anything
(11,464 posts)Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)at least when it comes to prescribing them to teens and young adults.
dkf
(37,305 posts)That's the secret to it all don't you think?
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)...but living in the D.C. metro area my entire life, I noticed that starting in the late 90's, there suddenly was a massive increase in the number of construction projects in the city. Since Congress plays a big role in how Washington, D.C. is handled, I think it was something they dedicated themselves to doing, especially after Marion Barry left office. I've always suspected that they wanted to do this sooner, but the GOP Congress refused to work with Barry on this.
dkf
(37,305 posts)Are there chain type stores or small businesses, like boutiques and restaurants?
Recursion
(56,582 posts)... there were a couple of bodegas which counted as "groceries" because they had bologna and apples, Chinese takeout, and liquor stores. So many liquor stores.
Now there are two grocery stores, a dozen bodegas (with actual produce), and a ton of restaurants, bars, and retail (everything from boutique to big box; the development plan for the Target/Best Buy complex included set-aside street-level storefronts reserved for locally owned businesses.)
Recursion
(56,582 posts)... which led to his tenure as mayor were the big turnaround times.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)With the result that the corrupt city administration was dismantled wholecloth. You no longer had to bribe somebody or be somebody's cousin to get a business or development permit.
dkf
(37,305 posts)tblue
(16,350 posts)I don't want to live in a gun culture. 100 gun deaths is 100 too many, IMHO. And Australia solved their gun-massacre problem with strict gun control. Zero tolerance of gun deaths and investment. We need both!
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)For 1) Australia got rid of 600,000 guns. We have 300 million. And 2) unlike Australia, we have a 2nd amendment and a 4th amendment that allows people to be secure in their property. For better or for worse, we're stuck with guns. I won't say there's a direct correlation here, but as I understand it, since this has happened, home invasions in Australia has skyrocketed, and women are 3 times more likely to get raped in Australia vs. the USA. People are 4 times more likely to be assaulted compared to the USA.
gejohnston
(17,502 posts)they didn't have any before the 1980s, starting with seven casualties between two biker gangs in the 1980s and ended with Port Author. Since the trend did not start with a change in gun laws, there is no reason to believe that the NFA was the actual reason. Besides, there is evidence that the compliance rate isn't that high.
Some Australian states had stricter laws, while some didn't.
BTW, the number of legally owned guns are back up to pre NFA levels and gun ownership is increasing.
Sgent
(5,858 posts)As a counter-example, look at New Orleans -- same murder rate as DC in the 90's, and it hasn't declined -- although violent crime is down significantly.
The difference? Gun ownership in Louisiana is ubiquitous.
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)And they have pretty lax gun laws. On the other hand, Maryland is number 2 when it comes to firearm homicides, and they have pretty strict gun laws. What Maryland and Louisiana have in common is high levels of poverty.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)If only just by pricing them out of housing.
Urban renewal doesn't have much to do with giving poor people jobs, it has more to do with raising the price of rents so those poor people can no longer afford to live in the renewed area.
I agree that economic inequality drives crime but we have become a more unequal nation economically in the time frame you are talking about rather than a less unequal one.
You are also ignoring the behavioral effect of ameliorating environmental lead in the last thirty to forty years as well.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)The showcases for "gentrification" have been Columbia Heights in Ward 1 and Capitol Hill in Ward 6. The poor people were not "run out of town", though the huge concrete boxes they were being kept in were torn down. Now, DC may be a special case because these neighborhoods hadn't been rebuilt since the '68 riots and still literally had burned out vacant lots and boarded up storefronts everywhere as recently as 10 years ago, so there was room to do all of this. But there are still definitely poor people there.
Incidentally, "urban renewal" is exactly what we were trying to reverse. "Urban Renewal" was the plan that got us things like Sursum Corda in DC or Cabrini Green in Chicago: take all the poor people, put them in big concrete "housing" towers, and hope that the obvious problems with that don't come to fruition (which they invariably do). DC's plan was to tear down the crime- and drug-ridden projects, get people into the less dense rowhouses in the neighborhood, and use the freed-up land for the commercial development that's been as of yet afraid to move in to those neighborhoods.
bowens43
(16,064 posts)the gun culture has to change. we have to rid ourselves this bizarre, idea that owning guns is okay. that using them is ok.
it's not
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)It wouldn't be. Best to recognize that fact and move on to something actually possible.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)
cantbeserious
(13,039 posts)eom
baldguy
(36,649 posts)It has failed MISERABLY. It has failed SPECTACULARLY.
RW gun extremists have basically said; "Trust us. Let any of us yahoos have a gun. It'll be fine."
The result is the ongoing daily massacre and the occasional atrocity to horrify the public.
It's time to do it differently.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)rdharma
(6,057 posts)Yes! Both.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)You know, like every other first-world democracy.
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)The Washington, D.C. example demonstrates that gun control does not work to eliminate gun crimes.
There is an argument from the pro-gun side that says the more guns there are the safer you will be. There is an argument from the gun-control side that says the least number of guns, the safer you will be. I'm saying that both arguments are false.
Louisiana, Arizona, Texas and South Carolina have some of the most lax gun laws in the country. They also happen to be in the top 20 states for firearm homicides. Maryland, California, New Jersey and Illinois have some of the most strict gun laws in the country, and they're also in the top 20 states for firearm homicides.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state
Unlike other nations, we have a 2nd amendment. We're stuck with guns. We just have to deal with that. Unless we can repeal the 2nd amendment, nothing can be done about that.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)If you're interested, you might want to check the scientific research available about the effect of gun availability on homicide rates.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022745525
The second amendment doesn't impede sensible gun laws, the kind they have in, say New York. If the whole nation adopted New York's gun laws, the effect on homicide rates would be significant.
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)But I also have no doubt that we would see a dramatic increase in assaults and other violent crimes.
Washington, D.C. example demonstrates that you don't stop murders with gun control alone. And you'd have a more effective result if you addressed poverty instead.
bhikkhu
(10,789 posts)across the world, with very few exceptions. That has been used as an argument for guns-for-all, and it has been used as an argument for the success of gun control, but probably is neither.
billh58
(6,655 posts)taken over by Gungeoneers. What a refreshing pile of garbage to start the day with. Twisted logic and bullshit statistics meant to promote the killing of innocent Americans -- the NRA and Uncle Wayne are very proud of their disciples of the Gun Cult.
premium
(3,731 posts)as are the majority of replies here with the exception of a few.
billh58
(6,655 posts)another gunner it is well-written, no matter how many lies and half-truths it contains. Gotta give you NRA apologists props for style though...
premium
(3,731 posts)Wow, thanks for letting me know, even though I've never been a member, even though I despise them, even though I've never said anything here in support of them.
So I'm a gunner because I said this thread is a well written, thought provoking piece?
Instead of mocking, point out the lies and half truths it contains.
billh58
(6,655 posts)are spouted by NRA apologists every day on DU, and they are debunked every day on DU. Why don't you point out the truths the gunners spout Bubba?
premium
(3,731 posts)You're the one claiming that this thread is full of lies and half truths, prove it.
billh58
(6,655 posts)missing a gunner?
premium
(3,731 posts)you've got nothing.
Thanks.
billh58
(6,655 posts)Bubba. I just don't have the time to go through all of this shit again. I, and many others, have already pointed out the NRA apologists' lies and half-truths, and especially those of the OP on many other threads. I have argued and pointed out the Gungeoneer fallacies with much better opponents than you Sparky, and I really don't have the time to waste educating you.
I'm tired of dealing with people who want to blame the victims in this nationwide health epidemic of gun worship which results in so many injuries and death. You and your Gungeoneer buddies, along with the OP will continue to spout NRA bullshit regardless of whether you are called on it or not.
Now continue on your mission to support right-wing, NRA, gunner group think, because I need to get busy helping Gabby Giffords, the Brady Group, and MAIG combat the NRA and its bought-and-paid for politicians. This is where the real problems are.
Have a good day, heah?
premium
(3,731 posts)you've got nothing.
Thank you.
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)...can't we have a civil discussion on the merits of my argument? If I'm wrong, prove me wrong.
billh58
(6,655 posts)you have an NRA-inspired diatribe which attempts to deflect the blame for gun violence to the victims. Please spare me the feigned "concern" and go tell Uncle Wayne that you're being a good little puppet.
premium
(3,731 posts)You won't get an honest answer from him, all you'll get is insults and venom and the usual claim of NRA talking points.
I think that you raise some very good points with this thread and it gives me something to ponder over.
If you notice, most of the replies are courteous and insult free, which is a good thing considering the rancor this issue brings out on both sides.
Keep up the good work. 
Progressive dog
(7,569 posts)Your choice involves choosing between things that go together.
In Japan, guns are tightly restricted and gun crimes are very low.
American cities are surrounded by gun nut controlled territory, unlike Japan.
American cities are not sovereign nations, unlike Japan.
In China, guns are tightly restricted and gun crimes are very low. etc.
premium
(3,731 posts)Japan and China have never had a gun culture like the U.S..
And their whole culture is way different from ours, when I was stationed in Japan, the people there were very polite and deferential to authority while here in the U.S., it's the opposite.
True, in China guns are strictly controlled, you even have to get permission from the govt. to possess a .177 cal. pellet rifle, but knife murders are up, there have been several mass murders with knifes in the last few years.
Progressive dog
(7,569 posts)Read and understand that I was pointing out the obvious flaws in your use of city statistics.
premium
(3,731 posts)and my apologies.
Tommy_Carcetti
(44,389 posts)Do you want to address mental illness? Do you want to address poverty? Or do you want better gun control laws?
Yes, yes, and yes.
It's not a zero-sum game, folks. Address one does not--and should not--exclude the possibility of address another.
Why is that so hard for the gun enthusiasts to understand?
billh58
(6,655 posts)much more important than actually addressing the root of the problem: too many unaccounted for gunz. And, NRA-sponsored political cowardice resulting in meaningless regulation of lethal weapons, and the highest gun-caused body count in the civilized world.
Yay, we're the best because we have the "freedom" to shoot each other, and to cause Americans to needlessly die by gunshot at the rate of 80 per day. What a country...
Vietnameravet
(1,085 posts)Such and obvious truth but the gun culture is deeply imbedded in America and simple logic and reason have no effect on them..
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)It's a question of what are the most effective policies. If you watched the video I linked, you would understand that poverty and income inequality is at the root of an incredible number of problems we have in this country.
We are unique in the world in many regards. We have a ton of guns and we have a 2nd amendment. But there are nations like the UK and Japan where almost no one has a gun, and they have very few gun deaths. And then there are nations like Sweden and Canada, which have a lot of guns and they also have very few gun deaths.
Maryland and Louisiana have very different gun laws. And they both have very high firearm homicide rates. Wyoming and Hawaii also have very different gun laws, and they both have very few firearm homicide rates. Maybe the answer isn't gun control, and maybe the answer isn't more guns. Maybe the answer is something else entirely. Like poverty and income inequality.
In Bowling For Columbine, Michael Moore asked the question, "What makes us so different as a nation?" When Canada has about as many guns per household as the US, and they have less than 300 gun murders and we have 12,000, I gotta think that what makes us different is that we have the income inequality of freaking Zimbabwe.
premium
(3,731 posts)Let's get the UBC bill passed in the Congress, let's end these endless wars, cut the defense budget, end the useless WOD and use the money for a massive rebuilding of our cities and infrastructure, and a massive funding of mental health care.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)I listed overhauling the Democratic Party first. Without the re-invigoration of the Party, I don't know how ANY other worthy issues (including mine) can be accomplished. So many worthy goals were accomplished in my adult lifetime by progressive policies. Now, the Party is a shell of itself to the extent many folks can't trust even the ones they voted for to support policies everyone is supposed to be on the same page with. I'm not saying we should return to the 60s. I am saying that we should describe meaningful goals and actions to improve schools, promote economic justice, a better environment (including conservation of open spaces), opposition to military adventures, full civil rights, and re-building our infrastructure. We have fallen so far away from these goals.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)This same method was used by Bush and Cheney to cherry pick information to send 4000 kids to die in Iraq.
Nobody will take your guns away.
Stop this mindless support of gun manufacturers. Can't you see your being used as a stooge for them?
Join in the fight to reduce gun violence it will do you no harm.
On this board we have been through just about evey meme there is on both sides.
I say ignore the extremes and work together for the good of all.
premium
(3,731 posts)I do think that there is a middle ground somewhere, but the extremists on both sides are refusing to budge an inch,
the only way we're going to get meaningful gun control laws is when the more reasonable people on both sides stand up and tell the extremists to STFU and let the adults take over.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)We don't want to grab guns and we don't what the wrong people having access to guns.
We also need unbiased reporting on gun violence.
billh58
(6,655 posts)a new tack now: they are pretending to be the "voice of reason" while still spewing their bullshit NRA propaganda. We need more mental health support they say. We need better housing they say. We need to stop working for sane gun laws and concentrate on social issues which are the underlying causes of gun violence. Does anyone really think that Republicans will support those issues, when they NEVER have?
Yes we DO need those things, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the gun problem. We need to defeat the fucking NRA which buys our politicians to pass insane laws like concealed carry, stand your ground, no background checks for private sales, absolutely no accountability after a gun sale (registration), and many other asinine local gun laws.
The smoke and mirrors tactics by the OP and other NRA apologists include the falsehood that we are "alienating ALL gun owners," and that the few "cold dead hands" Gungeoneers and huggers (including the OP) speak for them. That is pure and utter bullshit! Gun owners, like all Americans are divided along political, philosophical, religious, and ethnic lines and do NOT vote as a bloc. The NRA, and its supporters, use that particular lie as a hammer to beat up Democrats on a daily basis, and it's simply not true.
The other "big lie" is that the NRA has convinced a few million gullible Americans that the mean old Democrats are "coming for their guns," and coerced them into buying tons of ammunition in order to make even more profits. The entire NRA-sponsored lie machine has only one purpose: profits for their gun manufacturer sponsors, and to use a portion of those profits to buy yet more politicians at all levels of government.
So please spare me the "we're here to help you understand" bullshit, and go back to the Gungeon where the real right-wing NRA motives are on display.
upaloopa
(11,417 posts)your post an OP so more people will read it
Cleita
(75,480 posts)the consequences.
Your astroturf is duly noted.
Alva Goldbook
(149 posts)...I do think we have far too many guns in this country. Unless we repealed the 2nd amendment, I don't think much can be done about it.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)We just need to interpret it as it was meant by the framers of the Constitution. Actually, we need another amendment clarifying the concept of what a well regulated militia is and what in this day and age is suitable for civilian gun ownership and what isn't suitable.