Sun Apr 28, 2013, 01:26 AM
Luminous Animal (27,310 posts)
U.S. soldier gets 16 year sentence for trying to sell military secrets to Russia.
http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/15849-sixteen-years-for-espionage-life-in-jail-for-whistleblowing
Whistleblower Bradely Manning faces life in prison for exposing war crimes and corruption. Contrast that motive with Bradley Manning’s. In chat logs with government informant Adrian Lamo, Manning hypothesized, “what if i were someone more malicious…i could’ve sold to russia or china, and made bank?”
“Why didn’t you?” Lamo asked. “Because it’s public data,” he said. “It belongs in the public domain…information should be free…because another state would just take advantage of the information… try and get some edge…if its out in the open… it should be a public good.” Manning expounded on his reasons for passing to WikiLeaks hundreds of thousands of documents chronicling U.S. wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and U.S. diplomacy worldwide, in a statement earlier this year, I believed that if the general public, especially the American public, had access to the information contained within the [Iraq and Afghan War Logs] this could spark a domestic debate on the role of the military and our foreign policy in general as well as it related to Iraq and Afghanistan. That statement accompanied a guilty plea to lesser offenses, including communicating information to someone not entitled to receive it. That plea could have put Manning in jail for up to twenty years. But that wasn’t sufficient for military prosecutors, who immediately succeeded that statement with the announcement that they’ll continue to pursue all 22 charges against Manning, seeking life in jail without parole.
|
26 replies, 2270 views
![]() |
Author | Time | Post |
![]() |
Luminous Animal | Apr 2013 | OP |
msanthrope | Apr 2013 | #1 | |
Luminous Animal | Apr 2013 | #2 | |
msanthrope | Apr 2013 | #3 | |
Luminous Animal | Apr 2013 | #8 | |
msanthrope | Apr 2013 | #19 | |
Pelican | Apr 2013 | #4 | |
Luminous Animal | Apr 2013 | #5 | |
burrowowl | Apr 2013 | #6 | |
Pelican | Apr 2013 | #11 | |
Luminous Animal | Apr 2013 | #17 | |
Pelican | Apr 2013 | #22 | |
DevonRex | Apr 2013 | #9 | |
Recursion | Apr 2013 | #13 | |
Luminous Animal | Apr 2013 | #14 | |
Recursion | Apr 2013 | #15 | |
Luminous Animal | Apr 2013 | #18 | |
Recursion | Apr 2013 | #20 | |
msanthrope | Apr 2013 | #21 | |
DevonRex | Apr 2013 | #7 | |
Luminous Animal | Apr 2013 | #12 | |
DevonRex | Apr 2013 | #16 | |
Daniel537 | Apr 2013 | #24 | |
Daniel537 | Apr 2013 | #25 | |
DevonRex | Apr 2013 | #26 | |
Recursion | Apr 2013 | #10 | |
jberryhill | Apr 2013 | #23 |
Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 01:40 AM
msanthrope (37,549 posts)
1. 16 years isn't sufficient for this reason:
Mr. Manning and Mr. Assange provided the governments of the word information on their dissidents for free. 16 years isn't enough. |
Response to msanthrope (Reply #1)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:15 AM
Luminous Animal (27,310 posts)
2. First,John Goetz, journalist with Der Spiegal who was at the dinner, says it never happened.
Second, what, if true, does that have to do with the fact that a another soldier convicted of attempting to SELL secrets to a foreign government gets far more lenient treatment that a whistleblower.
|
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #2)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:38 AM
msanthrope (37,549 posts)
3. Given the libel laws of Britian, I seriously doubt the journalists who reported on this are lying.
Mr. Manning was offered a plea. He didn't take it.
|
Response to msanthrope (Reply #3)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:06 AM
Luminous Animal (27,310 posts)
8. Really. With no tape how could it be proved? Leigh says it happened. Goetz says no.
Assange says no. So tell me Barrister, how firm is the foundation for a lawsuit.
And please give us a link to the plea deal. |
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #8)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:29 AM
msanthrope (37,549 posts)
19. I think it would be an excellent case. The burden of proof would have been on the defense.
As for Mr. Manning's plea offered by the government, his attorney argued in pre-trial that the coercive plea offered by the government (which would have required testimony before the Virginia grand jury) was the impetus for the "overcharging" of the indicment. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70787_Page3.html We will probably not see the physical plea documents (the goverment's offer) until long after the trial is over, as that would be improper. What Manning is offering the court now is a 'naked plea' that is designed to mitigate sentencing. It's a last ditch effort. |
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #2)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:43 AM
Pelican (1,156 posts)
4. The secrets he tried to give...
... were limited and specific. Yes it would hurt, yes it would be a problem but it has a defined scope.
Manning literally made diplomacy with every nation on earth more difficult. If they believe that they can't talk to DoS and the Administration in confidence then they won't take the risk. A much broader scope of damage. |
Response to Pelican (Reply #4)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 02:56 AM
Luminous Animal (27,310 posts)
5. My point. One betrayed for profit. The other for transparency....
We The People should know what the powers that be do in our name. Every citizen in every country should demand that right. Manning exposed war crimes and corruption.
|
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #5)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:01 AM
burrowowl (16,688 posts)
6. I agree!
Manning did good! The other one wanted money.
|
Response to burrowowl (Reply #6)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:08 AM
Pelican (1,156 posts)
11. Manning was just striking back at the organization...
... that he had failed so miserably at.
If for some reason, he had something that he felt specifically showed a specific crime, then there are channels to go through. If those were ignored, I could see a defense being made for releasing that specific thing to a reputable source. That in no way reflects what happened. He did a mass data dump, most of which he hadn't read. That's not whistleblowing. That's just violation of your clearance. Do you believe that the US government should have no classified information? Everything should be available to everyone? |
Response to Pelican (Reply #11)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:25 AM
Luminous Animal (27,310 posts)
17. I believe that we fuck people up on a daily basis..
We terrorize communities with bombs and drones. We straddle the world and take what we please at the point of a gun. We topple democracies and prop up dictators and when those dictators exercise independence, we take them down and prop up faux democratic governments... witness Iraq and Afghanistan.
And yes, I do believe that everything should be available to everyone. They are our elected REPRESENTATIVES, they work on our behalf and we should have the information necessary to direct them to work in OUR interests. We should have all the information to give informed consent. |
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #17)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:39 AM
Pelican (1,156 posts)
22. It's hard to take you seriously...
When you claim that you feel like troop movements and identities of informants and agents should be available for public consumption.
As someone with experience at the actual point of the spear, I can look out my window right now, literally, tell you that we aren't taking diddly shit from the place. We are dumping a ton of resources in however. As for faux democracies, I think if we had Karzai under our thumb we might still have folks in Chak, Wardak. |
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #5)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:06 AM
DevonRex (22,541 posts)
9. Read the article. No information was passed. nt
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #5)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:11 AM
Recursion (56,552 posts)
13. What "war crimes" did Manning expose?
His dump of the State cables uncovered that diplomats were covering up some TIP by allied governments, but he hadn't read the State cables before he released them.
A lot of people seem to be under the mistaken impression that it was Manning who released the Gitmo documents. That was not him. |
Response to Recursion (Reply #13)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:13 AM
Luminous Animal (27,310 posts)
14. Collateral Murder.
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #14)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:15 AM
Recursion (56,552 posts)
15. Where the helicopter shoots the armed insurgents out after curfew?
Yeah, shooting the enemy isn't a war crime.
|
Response to Recursion (Reply #15)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:26 AM
Luminous Animal (27,310 posts)
18. We both know that is not true.
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #18)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:30 AM
Recursion (56,552 posts)
20. Apparently you never watched the video
The weapons are visible. The pilot comments about them.
|
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #18)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:35 AM
msanthrope (37,549 posts)
21. I know Assange got his ass kicked by Stephen Colbert, who pointed out the guy with the RPG.
http://www.colbertnation.com/full-episodes/thu-april-25-2013-gene-robinson
Assange himself admitted that one of the persons on the video had an RPG--and admitted that he edited out that person in his released version of "Collateral Murder." |
Response to msanthrope (Reply #1)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:05 AM
DevonRex (22,541 posts)
7. Plus that other soldier was not successful in passing info. Manning WAS.
And his info very well could have gotten people killed for all we know. He didn't give a shit apparently. Either that or he was just too stupid to realize he had no control over what was done with it once it left his hands. Same thing AFAIC. Whistleblower, my ass. He took the same oath I did in MI. We don't think of people like him kindly. There's a word we have for them.
|
Response to DevonRex (Reply #7)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:11 AM
Luminous Animal (27,310 posts)
12. Our own government has stated several times that they have no evidence
that anyone was put in danger.
Bully for you and your kind that witnesses war crimes and our too cowardly to act. |
Response to Luminous Animal (Reply #12)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:19 AM
DevonRex (22,541 posts)
16. You really think Bradley Manning
exposed war crimes? Unbelievable.
|
Response to DevonRex (Reply #16)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 09:17 AM
Daniel537 (1,560 posts)
24. The Iraq war itself was a war crime.
The more info we got from that criminal endeavor, the better. Manning did the world a public service.
|
Response to DevonRex (Reply #7)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 09:19 AM
Daniel537 (1,560 posts)
25. And apparently you don't give a shit about the crimes our govt. commits
every day overseas. You'd rather just stick your head up your ass and pretend everything we do is wonderful and a blessing. You keep living in fantasy land, some of us actually like to be informed.
|
Response to Daniel537 (Reply #25)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 01:21 PM
DevonRex (22,541 posts)
26. oh you poor thing
Response to Luminous Animal (Original post)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 03:07 AM
Recursion (56,552 posts)
10. "Trying"
"Attempted X" usually has a lower sentence than "X".
|
Response to Recursion (Reply #10)
Sun Apr 28, 2013, 06:52 AM
jberryhill (62,444 posts)
23. You beat me to it - "trying to"