I am sick of being treated less than human

[Taverner]

I am a contractor

That means I get paid for 40 hours of work, whether I do 40 or more

If I do 39, I get paid for 39 hours of work. If I do 50, I get paid for 40.

If I complain, I am fired.

If I take this up with the state, I get fired and probably blackballed.

I will "never work in this town again."

I can leave, and that's about my only freedom.

We are expected to drive sales so they can get bonuses. We don't get bonuses.

Long ago they promised full employment if you do a good job.

Ha.

I haven't seen one contractor go perm in the almost 2 years I've been here.

It's a joke.

Yes, I know many of you out there have it worse.

But that really doesn't matter.

And guess what? This place was recently given an award for being one of the best companies to work for!!!

If I had enough money to survive unemployment for a while, I might consider trying to unionize us.

But all of us have been well scared away from that.


Besides, there are a bunch of workers in Bengalore who would be willing to slit their whole families' throats for a chance to interview at this job.

I'll say it again....


FUCK CAPITALISM!!!!

[RevStPatrick]

1. I am TOTALLY on the "Fuck Capitalism" bandwagon.

And I'm a capitalist.

[SharonAnn]

62. I had one of these jobs for nearly 10 years. Figured out the only way to survive was

to take it as a "job" and realize that if I did my work (for a limited number of hours) and they gave me a paycheck at the end of the week, we were "even". And that I wasn't going to be able to change much about the situation. And I stopped investing more in the company than I was being paid for because that way I didn't resent not being paid for my contributions.

It's not a perfect solution, but it helped with my mental sanity which was suffering greatly because I'd had a "career" before that and was treated as a valued member of the company.

It's horrible what's happened to the work environment in most places and how "disposable" we workers have become.

[RadiationTherapy]

65. I am in the same boat. 11 years of increasing responsibility with no pay.

Now I just try to contribute as little in the way of creativity, ideas, and production as possible to earn my >$35k paycheck. It's tough, but the insurance for my daughter is too important and rare in my small mountain town dysfunctional economy.

[Brickbat]

2. If you're sick of putting up with it, but too scared to do something, then what?

[Taverner]

7. Only one thing you can do

...

[Brickbat]

12. Complain?

[Taverner]

14. Nope...

Head down, make no waves, and do JUST enough to not get fired

[Brickbat]

21. Oh. Carry on, then.

[Lurker Deluxe]

22. Could never do that.

I am not sure what it is that you do. What type of contractor are you, and in what industry?

If I was that unhappy at work I would leave, my pride would never let me "do JUST enough to not get fired".

There are people here where I work who seem to have that attitude and when they start bitching I just walk away from them. They are a drag on the group and provide no positive. When the ROF rolls around every year the company purges these people and they are always surprised.

Sorry you find yourself in this situation, but it would be better for you in the long term to simply seek out other employment.

[Duer 157099]

30. So, let them eat cake?

Different words, same attitude.

[Taverner]

34. Looking for a new, salaried job

I only took this job to pay the bills, since I'd rather be doing Sales

[gateley]

55. "...simply seek out other employment..." Looks good on paper, but isn't that easy.

Twenty years ago I would have agreed with you, but not now.

[rosesaylavee]

185. Looking for other employment is 'doable'

if one's age is somewhere between 25 and 45. After that chances get slimmer - not impossible - but slimmer that one will find another job that is better paying and a better work environment. I am in the over 50 crowd. Been working what I thought was a temporary position for 5 years now. I think the only way I am leaving is if I can come up with a self-employment angle that will create the same level of dollars coming in (or hopefully more.

[Myrina]

43. ^^ Yep ^^

I am an IT contractor at an enormous student loan servicing company (cough cough) which shall remain anonymous (cough cough). In the same boat as you, although in this case, they fired several hundred fte's a couple years ago ... there's nobody still here with legacy knowledge of systems and processes, so I spend most of my time spinning my wheels trying to get questions answered. The existing fte's are also head down & trying not to get fired. They put the fear of unemployment in everyone back then. This place is like a mortuary for the most part.

Pretty goddamn frustrating. On one hand, I can't wait for the contract to end so I can GTF outta here, on the other, I don't know that I'll have enough $$ saved by then to float for a couple months until something else comes up. Actively looking for my next gig.

[Skittles]

125. I have to put up with the offshore replacements

THEY SUCK!!!!!!!!!!! The standards have been very much lowered to accommodate them - they routinely do stuff we would be fired for in a heartbeat.

[sabrina 1]

168. Everything has to start somewhere. First people complain, then they go public with their

complaints, then more people join in and complain, sometimes it take years, but the more people who complain, the more courage it gives to others to complain.

Changing a bad labor situation doesn't happen suddenly, all of a sudden everyone en masse manages to force fair labor laws and then everything is fine.

Changing anything starts when people realize they are being treated badly and they decide to complain about it.

I am glad the OP is complaining. Maybe if others join and then more, and more, they CAN organize and get something done. But that will not happen until more people complain and unite with some kind of strategy to put into effect if any of them get fired, such as a mass walkout. They can't fire everyone and continue to run a successful business.

[freedom fighter jh]

60. Start a vegetable garden.

If you don't have space outdoors, do it indoors in pots.

If this works, you're going some distance toward taking care of your own needs in some way other than getting paid.

I'm trying it (indoors, in pots). I started 3 days ago and nothing has poked through the soil yet.

The land feeds us. We have lost our connection with it. Reestablishing that connection may be an important step toward freedom.

[truebluegreen]

78. FYI, 7-10 days is common germination time.

Good for you, and good luck.

[freedom fighter jh]

147. Thank you truebluegreen.

I am just starting to learn about this.

[Walk away]

115. I usually costs me about $20 a tomato by the time I finish with the soil...

care and water. Herbs and hot peppers and garlic are my only money saving crops and even then it's mostly about quality not cash.

[HiPointDem]

151. my uncle saves seeds from storebought tomatoes that he likes and plants them in the spring.

starts them in his sunny garage, plants them in kind of clayey soil, and they grow like gangbusters.

doesn't cost much. nothing, actually.

maybe if you're counting the labor, but you can count that as time you don't have to pay for gym time, too.

[Walk away]

165. I have a friend who grow beautiful heirloom tomatoes from seed...

Every spring she gives me six or seven different plants so they are FREE! By the time I finish with the fertilizer and the soil it usually about $50 because the pots have to be huge or the roots bind and the plants die. I can't plant them in the ground or the dogs will water then for me!

They usually look fantastic and lush through July then little green tomatoes appear and they either stay that way or one or two get really big. Last year I had six enormous plants that yielded about ten tomatoes. I have used several types of containers. Some pretty expensive but no use. I just suck at farming!

[HiPointDem]

173. i have trouble with tomatoes in pots too. the ones i put in the regular ground do better.

maybe it's the soil rather than the pots.

[Walk away]

187. I think I have tried every available soil known to man.

Miracle grow makes one just for veggies at $10 a bag. That's the stuff that my $20 tomatoes grew in. I hate to indulge in magical thinking but I do believe I am cursed.

[freedom fighter jh]

202. Everything I've seen says you need real big containers for tomato plants.

As I said I'm just getting started with this, so I know only what I read and see on videos.

One site (e-how?) recommended reusable shopping bags instead of pots. You know, like paper shopping bags from the grocery store, but plastic so that water won't destroy them. It's where I'm planning to plant my tomato plants once they've germinated.

[quakerboy]

160. Talk to me about garlic

How do you know when to pull it up?

I had some storebought garlic start to sprout, so just for a lark, I broke up the cloves and planted them it in my tiny little garden area. And its gone nuts, by all signs. Faster growing than I would have expected. But I dont know how to tell when its gone far enough to harvest.

[Walk away]

164. I plant the cloves in pots in September and forget about them until....

the spring. Then water them when they sprout. A little organic fertilizer and in July you have fantastic garlic. Harvest until September and then pull it all, hang it and dry it and you are good for another month. Roast up a bunch of it, mash it up, put it in baggies and freeze it.

[nebenaube]

199. Soil doesn't freeze here

The soil doesn't freeze here. So, I just let it go year round... need some garlic? Walk out into the yard and get some. It's blooming right now.

[Walk away]

200. I wish I could! Supermarket garlic never tastes right! nt

[bluestate10]

137. Keep the soil that the seeds are in moist, but not saturated.

Water softens the hard outer covering of seeds, allowing the living inner part to punch through. If your soil is too dry, the outer seed covering takes longer to soften.

[freedom fighter jh]

146. Thank you bluestate10.

I need all the good advice I can get about this.

[Wounded Bear]

3. Sing it, bro!

[pintobean]

4. "being treated less than human"

"Yes, I know many of you out there have it worse.

But that really doesn't matter."

I'm not going to suggest a wambulance. Maybe it has something to do with attitude.

[marmar]

6. Wow. Just wow.

[laundry_queen]

50. Yep, some of us have noticed. nt

[pintobean]

58. What course are

you playing?

Tied for 2nd place!

[pintobean]

79. You joined this thread to talk about me

How am I the stalker?

[pintobean]

91. That didn't answer my question.

Just another insult.

I took issue with him saying that anyone who has it worse than him doesn't matter. Sue me.

[timdog44]

124. That was probably not

a good thing to say. But when people are down and out, no matter their station, they are only thinking of themselves. I do not find it as bad as you seem to think. It becomes a matter of what do i do, or where do I turn. I would think that those of us on DU should recognize that fact. Slack is what we need to cut. Not someone's down and out. We can hope this is a turning point and a life lesson for all.

[TroglodyteScholar]

13. You've clearly never worked for a company where the low paid contract employees do all the work...

...while the lazy, entitled actual employees reap all the benefits of the contractors' hard work and shockingly low wages.

While I'm not in that position now, I have been in the past...and it is a degrading situation that is characterized by feelings of helplessness and hopelessness that only grow with each passing day.

At least when you're unemployed, there's a real possibility that your tomorrow will actually be better than your today was.

[badtoworse]

35. If you're unemployed, your chances of landing a job are pretty bad in this economy.

If you're working as a contractor, you're chances of landing a better job are substantially improved. That has been my experience.

[ieoeja]

49. My experience has been the opposite.

We had one contractor who did nothing but document what we were doing then turned that in as the specifications they wrote for us to do the job that was now already complete.

Last time I worked with a bunch of contractors, they built a web page front-end wherein all the real work had to be done in the back end. There only contribution with the back end was forcing me to really bad designs.

Lots of time I have to majorly rework everything after the contractors leave. But then those contractors probably left here thinking they had just done all the work.

[grump3r]

106. HR Gate

That's the worst part too. It seems like they will judge you less on your character and abilities. Instead some focus on looks or social skill.

I never went to the bar with co-workers. Mostly because I lived an hour away, was tired at the end of the day, and wanted to spend time with friends. Movies or board games so I was a short distance from my bed.

I was considered anti-social. -_-

[CreekDog]

94. you're anti labor now too?

did someone take over your account a few years ago?

when you started badmouthing liberal causes and ideas?

[pintobean]

97. Only you could come to that conclusion.

[CreekDog]

99. you say the guy who can't get overtime needs "waaahmbulance"

is that what someone who has claimed to be involved with the labor movement says to a mistreated worker?

no, it's not ONLY ME that would come to the conclusion that you're anti worker.

[pintobean]

127. So, your theory is, I stalked him by forcing him to reply

to me. Brilliant theory.

You do know that the "My Posts" tab turns yellow when one has a reply, right? I don't know why my response time would matter, but CD replied to me in half that time. I guess that matters about as much as him initiating this exchange does.

I think your transparency page speaks for itself. You went there, so I don't need to.

As for Meta, remember this?

Response to Skittles (Reply #98)

Tue Apr 23, 2013, 06:00 PM

Star Member Occulus (20,191 posts)
119. Which is WHY Meta should be returned.

Emilyg and r_digital would never have been exposed as the trolls they were without Meta. Other obnoxious posters would never have been slapped down in public, because as my most recent three or so hides prove, Meta behavior is not really appreciated in the other forums and groups.

We need Meta back. Badly.

I'm not the one begging for its return. You seem to want a forum to give people shit.

[Occulus]

128. Go away, stalker

[pintobean]

129. More brilliance.

[Occulus]

130. Go away, stalker

[CreekDog]

132. Oh Pintobean misses racist emilyg and wants gun nut rdigital back?

just like he wants troll LoZocalo back.

what a, um, surprise.

[pintobean]

148. "You could keep telling yourself that."

Response to devilgrrl (Original post)

Mon Apr 8, 2013, 12:48 PM

Star Member Skinner (57,273 posts)
1. "a members hidden posts really don't mean much"

You could keep telling yourself that.

Or you could accept that a jury of your DU peers thought you crossed the line, and try to do better. At the moment, you are tied for second place for most hidden posts in the last 90 days. Surely you can do better.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12591157#post1

One more thing: Don't push your luck.

The DU Community Standards state: "It is the responsibility of all DU members to participate in a manner that promotes a positive atmosphere and encourages good discussions among a diverse community of people holding a broad range of center-to-left viewpoints." Members who demonstrate a pattern of disruptive behavior over time and end up getting too many of their posts hidden by the jury (measured by raw number or percentage) may be found to be in violation of our Terms of Service. If you seem to be ruining this website for a large proportion of our visitors, if we think the community as a whole would be better off without you here, if you are constantly wasting the DU Administrators' time, if you seem to oppose the mission of DU, or if the DU Administrators just don't like you, we will revoke your posting privileges. Remember: DU is supposed to be fun — don't make it suck.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=termsofservice

[pintobean]

150. I just bookmarked a hilarious thread.

You had your ass handed to you in ATA, and you still don't realize it.

[stevenleser]

189. Correct. That kind of a post is anti-worker and anti-labor. nt

[pintobean]

197. Bullshit Steve

I expect the cheap shots from the usual crowd. Climbing on that bandwagon indicates a lack of respect for the intelligence of this community. People can read. I would expect better from you.

[RetroLounge]

156. Pretty obvious conclusion

Do you have ANY progressive ideas?

RL

[pintobean]

159. I've been wondering where you were

A pile-on just wouldn't be the same without you.

[RetroLounge]

163. Glad you missed me.

I'll miss you someday too...

but not today.

RL

[Dreamer Tatum]

111. +1 not loving your job doesn't mean you're being treated as inhuman nt

[CreekDog]

133. and you're anti-labor as well

[HiPointDem]

152. i'll suggest a wambulance, for *you*.

[RetroLounge]

155. As in being anti labor?

Is that what you meant?



RL

p.s. Edited but means the same thing

[Arctic Dave]

5. Unfortunately, you are not alone.

More and more companies are doing to their employees what yours is doing to you.

[tiredtoo]

143. if you are a contractor you are not an employee

This has major advantages for the company and major disadvantages for the contractor. If you are told what hours to work and given additional directions etc. you are actually an employee not a contractor. Do not recall the actual rules defining employee vs. contractor but most contractors are actually employees and if they would contest their status they would most likely be fired but could put some heat on company. This designation should be challenged in court. hopefully it will be sometime soon.

[meaculpa2011]

177. I've been an independent contractor for 33 years.

Whenever a client asks me to work on-site I respectfully decline. Working on-site under the client's direct supervision would jeopardize my IC status. I don't know about other states, but in NY if a worker is on-site, on the client's schedule and under direct supervision he is an employee. The longest I've ever worked on a single project for one client was 18 months, but even then I was free to take other projects.

[AngryOldDem]

183. "Contractor" is just another word for "slave"

(First. I think there was a case involving contractors that concerned Microsoft. Not sure of the particulars, but several years ago, as an upshot of that case, I had to establish myself as an LLC and get a contracting number in order to continue with my freelance proofreading work for a publisher.)

To your point: Contracted employees are a big win situation for the employers, of course, given that no benefits need to be paid, and they pretty much make up the rules as they go concerning work hours, duration of employment, etc., and in this economy they can count on having people who will gladly take the shit because it's a "JOB".

Contracting work is all I'm going to be doing until the day I die. I will never, I am convinced, have a job that comes with a good wage and benefits again.

Because that's how THEY want it. Less for us, more for them.

And yes, I take the shit because I need a job. It occurred to me the other day that now I know what whoring must feel like, because I sure as fuck feel like one. But hey, it's a paycheck, right?

[el_bryanto]

8. That's rough

But that's why we need a well regulated capitalism - because companies naturally want to screw their employees.

[Taverner]

10. Here's why regulated capitalism does not work

Step One - Congress passes a bunch of laws protecting the environment, worker's rights and safety codes

Step Two - CorpyMcUSA buys news channel and derides laws as "COMMUNISM"

Step Three - This confuses voters into electing candidates bought and paid for by CorpyMcUSA

Step Four - The new congress repeals the laws

Lather, rinse repeat

[Whiskeytide]

18. What a great synopsis of what's going on...

I am always amazed that more people don't see that truth. But, then, I suppose they're confused...

[caraher]

23. At least in the present context it doesn't

It's why true democracy is a prerequisite for a more humane capitalism. If we also regulate elections such that CorpyMcUSA cannot buy outsize "speech" rights in the form of megaphones made of cash, steps 2-4 become much more difficult.

[Taverner]

25. They will find a way. As long as they own the means of production, they win.

[JNelson6563]

26. Brilliantly & succinctly put!

[olddots]

38. you hit the nail on the head !

vicious cycle we have to stop to break.

[Newest Reality]

59. Tell it!

Nice, clear and to the point.

[cali]

72. you actually believe there's some perfect system? bzzzzt. human nature

the nature of politics, etc.

[Taverner]

76. Did I say that? Wow...you are just making *&%$# up today!

[el_bryanto]

105. Well what are the other options?

Because most other economic systems tried other than Europeon style Socialism (which is well-regulated capitalism for the most part) - have been worse.

Bryant

[CreekDog]

134. Germany's economy is thriving

it has all the features of the system you think doesn't work.

[el_bryanto]

191. Yep - Germany is a well regulated capitalism.

Thanks for proving my point.

[KentuckyWoman]

154. my question as well

I don't understand why we allow a corporation to own land or water or natural resources. Why a corporation gets any say in government.

Stockholders who are US citizens get to vote so they can vote for the people who they think will best serve their interests. And ownership of a piece of the planet? This planet will be here billions of years after mankind has finally killed itself off. I legally own my home but one brain cell it's obvious this house will eventually be someone else's.

[AngryOldDem]

181. Brilliant analysis, in 50 words or less,

That's **exactly** how it is.

[NightWatcher]

9. Don't you dare get sick, or hurt yourself for that matter

The company will ditch you in a heartbeat for either of those. I used to be a field contractor and if you got hurt in the field not only would you be fired (never given work again), but they'd yell at you for inconveniencing them by having to replace you.

[Taverner]

11. Yep

[NightWatcher]

15. Eligible for workers comp? NO! Eligible for unemployment? NO

Do you get stuck paying more in taxes? Yeppers

I hated being a "self employed" contractor. But yay now I'm disabled and actually got money back from IRS for the first time in 15 years.

[Whiskeytide]

20. I know your speaking tongue-in-cheek...

... But its kind of a sad commentary when a joke about celebrating the financial security of becoming disabled is one that we get. Congrats..., uh, .. condolences... uh, crap ... just hang in there.

[arcane1]

16. Amen! My employer recently announced an intention to outsource 40% of our operations...

by 2014.

Thus, 40% of us will lose our job. For the remaining 60%, management has the nerve to call it an "opportunity"

[ctsnowman]

188. War is peace.

[JaneyVee]

17. TRAPITALISM

[Taverner]

33. BINGO! nt

[HughBeaumont]

37. If that isn't a bumper sticker, it should be.

[AZ Progressive]

85. I second that!!!

[ErikJ]

96. Health care trap

You cant quit your job because you might not be able to get health insurance that you can afford if at all.

[SheilaT]

19. Are you paid by the job or hourly?

If hourly I had long thought there were federal laws about overtime pay.

[caraher]

27. But I think that's the contractor loophole

As a contractor you are you're own employer, so you cannot seek redress under those laws from the entity with whom you have contracted.

You'd be right if you were deemed an employee, but under this kind of arrangement I think you are not.

Disclaimer: I am not a labor lawyer

[Taverner]

29. Technically, I would call myself a "Temp"

Because technically I don't work for this company. I work for my agency, or 'pimp' if you want to be honest about it.

[Wounded Bear]

53. ...and they work you (us) like....

the rented mules we are.

I'm in the club. Sux.

[noiretextatique]

54. that's exactly what i call my agency: my pimp

it's totally appropriate.
i get paid a pittance of what they charge the client, but i do get some *modest* benefits after working 1000 hours, like sick and vacation. i am making 15k less than i was on my last job, but it does beat the alternative after being unemployed for two years. if i didn't have a lawsuit settlement coming soon, i wouldn't have any hope for change. the audacity of barely scraping by...with little hope for the future

[SheilaT]

84. So I'm still slightly puzzled.

Are you on salary? If that's so, then it does suck, but you also want to make sure your job fits the criteria for a salaried position.

If you're hourly, there really are federal laws about paying overtime.

[Taverner]

87. I am hourly - and I work for an agency

They do subtract taxes and FICA, and the agency has overtime rules

But the company contracting us has told us they won't pay us for any hours worked past 40

But we will be expected to work them

[Taverner]

28. Hourly, and yes, there are federal laws

And no, this company does not follow them

If I report, I'll never work again

[SheilaT]

89. Have you ever heard of the National Labor Relations Board?

Do you live in a state with no attorney general or no agency that deals with these things?

Don't just let them get away with not paying you. Make sure they're turned in to the correct people/agency/whatever.

I know that in New Mexico if a company is found guilty of not paying the correct minimum wage or overtime, the company will owe triple the amount to the wronged employee.

[Taverner]

93. I would get my pay, and then a month or so later my services would no longer be needed

Seriously

[SheilaT]

104. Is there only one agency in your city?

The reason companies get away with this crap is that people put up with it.

[jeff47]

136. Word has a way of getting around.

It's likely that the other agencies wouldn't hire him after the complaint. Moving to a city may or may not be enough - depends on how much 'networking' the relevant agencies do.

[quakerboy]

161. The reason they get away with it is

Lax enforcement, low penalties when caught, and a labor force that needs the illegally low amount now more than the chance for more in the future.

[SheilaT]

170. All the more reason to hold their feet to the fire.

It's like the whole whistleblower problem. If no one ever blows the whistle on wrong-doing, it just continues. Whistle-blowers invariably suffer, but at least they bring light to the problem.

Putting up with not being paid overtime is similar. Unless you live in a very small town with only one industry, there really are other jobs out there.

When I moved here to Santa Fe I was fired from the first two jobs I held. I'd never been fired before in my life, so it was quite a shock. I simply let those two jobs disappear from my resume.

It's been my experience, as an older worker (I'll be 65 in August) that companies don't question lapses in employment as they did forty or so years ago. It's always possible to invent a fictitious employment. Or, as in my case, when my last serious job was so long ago that no former supervisors are even alive, it just doesn't matter.

[quakerboy]

180. Easily said, less easily done

Maybe you can prove me wrong, but my observation is that "whistle blowers" and people who step up against wrong are becoming less and less effective. And while noone wants to suffer, even fewer people are willing to suffer for no benefit.

Sunlight as the best disinfectant seems to have lost its power. Now we know that our shirts are made in unsafe factories in Bangladesh, but we will still buy them. There's just so much wrong out there, that no one can encompass all of it, so most just give up. And the whole point of exposing something is that then the mass of people will exact the justice. But they don't anymore.

Similarly, in a case like this, or a whistle blower, the end result is supposed to be the government stepping in to regulate and fix the problem that comes to light. But what is the likelihood that will actually happen? Maybe, maybe they get a slap on the wrist fine for what they've done. Chances are that not even that happens, but if it does, the likelihood it goes any further is minimal.

So whats the point? Americans are not the proud, rebellious people they were. We know better. We've matured. We know the system is corrupt. Left, right and center we know it is, even if we disagree on the causes. But we also know that its inevitable, and hey, we still have TV and TV dinners, and if we cant really effectively protest and we have to sit in free speech zones, we still have our guns so we know freedom is intact.

[creativebliss]

196. Painfully true...

...but, I fear that resigning to this sad truth only keeps us complacent...which leads to inaction...which is the exact opposite of how we as informed and invested individuals must behave...

So, I inevitably lead myself to the same question I keep grinding my teeth over...how do we get people invested again? How do we get average citizens to realize the true potential of their collective voice? How do we tell them it's okay to ask for more, for what's right? We shouldn't just be happy to have a job...we should be happy with the job we choose...

I hope we can come to a collective understanding in the near future when a day of action to walk out of our jobs is not only possible, but probable. It is then, and only then, that people will actually realize that the power is in our hands...

You can't have a business, if you don't have any employees...and, you can't outsource every job...the only alternative will be to treat employees with the rights and dignity they deserve...

[AZ Progressive]

24. Capitalism is the excuse that aggressive bullies and other exploiters use

to prey on innocent people and take or steal from them. When I see all the bullshit that is in this country because of the predators preying on the general public, and when I see how conartistry is really a part of American society, that passes for business and capitalism, it really is disheartening.

[Larry Ogg]

190. If a majority of people would learn about, and have a good understanding of "predators"...

(i.e. the human kind) The world would be a much better place.

Until then the worst of predators, and the ruling class will remain "one and the same".

And the working class will continue to be easy prey, pawns, slaves, cannon fodder, and accessories to their own fate.
Too stupid to see through all the lies of political sellouts that have shaped their misleading world-views. Views that allow them to be herded into the traps that will rob them of their labor, well being, happiness, and humanity.

And yes, it really is disheartening. But as long as we keep pointing out the "predators", more and more people will take notice.

[LiberalLoner]

31. We will suffer this system until we rise up and are willing to die to stop

The endless exploitation. We got the new deal because the greedy fucks were SCARED of us.

Time to make the greedy gits scared of us again.

[Taverner]

32. We really need the IWW

Unlike the other unions, the IWW was a force to be reckoned with

[LiberalLoner]

48. Yup. But their strength was based on people willing to die

[Taverner]

52. That is true. Also, because their strategy of non compliance.

When arrested, they sat there. They didn't fight but they didn't move.

When asked their name, they would reply "An Industrial Worker!"

When asked their country, they would say "IWW"

The goal was to gunk up the gears, with their own bodies if need be, to stop the means of production.

A complete and total strike.

[ChaoticTrilby]

113. As said by Enjolras in Les Mis...

With all the anger in the land
How long before the judgment day,
Before we cut the bad ones down to size,
Before the barricades arise?

I'm not an advocate of violence or anything, so non-violent protest is needed now, before things get much worse. Solidarity, damnit!

[LiberalLoner]

117. Amen!

[Nye Bevan]

36. So how would it work in a non-capitalist system?

You would work to the best of your abilities and receive compensation based upon your needs?

[Taverner]

47. I don't know. But it's like being on fire.

When you are on fire, and you know it is the fire that is burning you, you might want to stop the fire

[AZ Progressive]

70. Why can't people think beyond the capitalism - communism spectrum?

I mean, it's like people who dream up aliens can't think of any non-human or non-animal like form. Is it really that hard?

This country has a history of not liking "big government", but how can the people be protected against predatory capitalism if it isn't for big government?

Can we not have both big government and predatory capitalism?

What this is all really about is not allowing certain people to attain so much power as to be able to prey upon other people.

The only way I see to that is a reformed culture, an American culture that uses the power of strong disapproval / ostracism to make sure that noone has disproportionate power and noone's abusing their power. Anyone trying to gain disproportionate power or large sums of money (more than what is deemed appropriate for a professional) is worthy of scandal. Since business and attaining power is dependent on other people, people would just boycott anyone trying to attain such power. We would have no large businesses, only small businesses, small business partnerships, and small business collectives (for mainly the purpose of collective buying and working on things that require large scale productions, like airplanes) that are prohibited from lobbying and must function in a democratic way to its members. We would have virtual wealth caps (like we did when the U.S. had a top tax rate of 91% on the highest earners.) The small business focus would allow enough competition to keep prices fair, and if any group of businesses tries to price gouge people, there would be an uproar, followed by enough small businesses to take advantage at the foolhardy attempt to price gouge that they would take business away from them, so there would be virtual price caps enforced by society. And of course, because of the large amount of small businesses, there would be much more demand for workers and workers would have more power because they would simply just go with the employer that pays better and treats their workers better. And of course we still need the government to enforce certain rules and regulations (though I think that regulations should be funded as a collective administrated by the government, otherwise it favors businesses with more money.) In effect, its a rules based money economy, but with society doing much of the enforcing rather than the government. In this way, the wealth would be much more equally distributed but without a big government needed.

We must discourage legally and culturally the attaining of lots of power. We actually did this with wealth and power before with the top tax rate of 91% and the enforcing of antitrust laws that made it hard for companies to merge that until Reagan's DOJ first laxed the antitrust laws and thus allowed lots of companies to merge with each other. Before then, you would only have regional department stores, banks, and supermarket chains, not really national ones.

[Taverner]

74. I think abolishing the stock market would be a great start...

But that's just me

[AZ Progressive]

77. What's the purpose of the stock market for companies other than to allow them to become bigger?

And thus, ultimately gain more power?

Yes, the stock market is the big reason why we have people not only being too rich, but also so many big companies, and as such lots of financial power in this country, enough to buy our government.

[Taverner]

80. Amen, AZP...

I really can't add anything to that!

[aristocles]

39. Don't fuck capitalism completely

I know a guy who worked as a contact programmer and did not like it at all. He worked at a major electronics manufacturing firm.

He had an idea for a systems management application. Against his wife's advice, he quit his job.
Working at the small kitchen table in his apartment, he designed the application. He made cold calls to companies he thought would find his product useful. He started selling it. Word about the value of his product got around.

He started his first office location in a 3-bedroom apartment. One bedroom for developer (2 of them), one for sales (himself), one for shipping (1).

Within two years he was able to buy a small office building, for cash. He had about 10 employees then.

Within 10 years, he was able to purchase a 3-story office building. 700 employees. Offices in London, Paris, and Sydney.

20 years after starting his company he sold it for over 30 million dollars.

He's now a venture capitalist, focusing on small software startups.

When he sold his company, he funded a scholarship fund at his alma mater for undergraduates enrolled in the school of engineering.

This is the other way to fuck capitalism. Play the system to your advantage. Laugh all the way to the bank.

But you have to have that one idea.....

[Taverner]

42. He was lucky. Many have not been so lucky.

Take the guy who truly invented the iPod - worked at Apple, one of their star engineers.

Of course the patents belonged to Apple - but as a reward all future development was outsourced and he was fired. Yay, capitalism!

Or how about Tucker Motors...bet you can wait see the 2014 Tucker...except they went bankrupt when the big 3 sued him into oblivion. They made a movie about it. America shrugged.

[aristocles]

45. One of the reasons for this guy's success

Besides being very smart, he was unfailingly happy and optimistic. He viewed obstacles as challenges to overcome.

I know it hard to be happy and optimistic ALL the time, but in my experience the most successful people tend be the optimists.

[Taverner]

46. "Optimism???"

The most successful con men come across as optimists

That's how you lie to someone - with a smile and a sparkle

[aristocles]

51. You need to get yourself out of your current situation

It's not worth the bitterness.

"Smile and a sparkle": one of the ways of winning the lotto of life.

[eridani]

175. On the contrary, it's one of the main reasons why the US ranks near the bottom of industrial nations

--in opportunities for upward mobility. Also one of the prime causes of the financial crash.

Barbara Ehrenreich's "Bright-Sided"
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/10/books/10ehrenreich.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Over the next few years, however, she kept encountering the same smiling insistence elsewhere that a positive outlook itself was the solution to problems. It had infiltrated the large career-counseling industry that serves the unemployed; the Ivy League, where “positive psychology” has nested in the curriculum; the best-seller list, where “The Secret” has taken up residence; mega-churches run by evangelists; and conferences for motivational speakers.

Then the financial crisis hit. “Wham,” she said. “It was so clear to me that it was connected.” The relentlessly optimistic forecasts about subprime mortgages and endless increases in real estate values were the product of the positive-thinking culture. One of the fundamental tenets of the literature, Ms. Ehrenreich said, is to surround yourself with other positive thinkers and “get rid of negative people.”

“We’ve been weeding out anybody capable of rational thinking, of realism,” said Ms. Ehrenreich, a longtime activist in leftist politics. “That was, for me, ‘Wow!’ ”

Meanwhile, a background in science — she has a Ph.D. in biology — made Ms. Ehrenreich especially skeptical of pseudoscientific claims that positive thinkers often cite.

In “Bright-sided,” she traces the roots of the nation’s blithe sunniness to a reaction against Calvinist gloom and the limits of medical science in the first half of the 19th century. Starting with Phineas Parkhurst Quimby, perhaps one of the first American New Age faith healers, she draws a line to Mary Baker Eddy, the founder of Christian Science; the psychologist William James; Ralph Waldo Emerson; Norman Vincent Peale, who published “The Power of Positive Thinking” in 1952; and the toothy television minister Joel Osteen, who preaches the gospel of prosperity.

[canoeist52]

203. Thanks for this post. That book opened my eyes to the myth of positive thinking creating success.

[Dragonfli]

158. I know that guy too! His name was John something. O yeah! it was Galt!

Who is John Galt? He is the template used to create fictional characters That laugh all the way to the bank, all they need is that one good idea. They are proof we can all do it as well.

Funny thing is he is never mentioned by name in this story, not until the end.

[JNelson6563]

40. Agreed!

Taverner, I totally get what you're saying! I am not in a situation like yours (though mine sucks mightily for other reasons, ridiculously low pay being the main one).

I also get what you're saying in regard to others who have it worse and that that's immaterial in this discussion. Even though I am very probably one who has it worse I agree with you! Was just thinking about this yesterday. In as much as I am poor it did cross my mind that there are so many who are even worse off. Two things occurred to me at that time: 1. There is always someone worse off than you, no matter how bad off you are. 2. Just because there are others worse off does not negate the fact that an injustice is being done to you.

The more who find themselves in unjust situations or who find they are working very hard but living in poverty, there more likely it is we'll see change. As long as a great many of us are content, nothing will change.

Julie

[Taverner]

44. " Just because there are others worse off does not negate the fact that an injustice..."

"...is being done to you."

Amen.

If everyone took the other attitude, the bar just keeps getting lower and lower

[JNelson6563]

66. Yes, the "Be grateful

because there are many who have it much worse" attitude is not the right attitude. It only enables those who exploit people.

Fuck that.

Julie

[ctsnowman]

192. That attitude is what is allowing the race to the bottom.

[Initech]

56. Correction: Fuck De-regulated, Ayn Randian capitalism!!!

Capitalism works if it's regulated and government overseas the corrupt. But remove regulation and that's when we get an ultra corrupt class of mega rich who screw over their workers repeatedly and gain more wealth for themselves. Ayn Rand philosophy teaches the ultra rich to treat the workers like absolute shit. This is the kind of toxic BS we need to remove from society.

[ag_dude]

68. Not disagreeing with you but...

...I'm checking DU while on a brief break from a full day conference on state and federal employment regulations.

And I'm in Texas, where the stereotype is we have no regulations at all.

[AZ Progressive]

83. We need to discourage obscene wealth and power gathering

Capitalism works best when its regulated and when people don't have too much power, in effect like how a sports game is played. We at the least need a DOJ with teeth and with the willpower that it had in the past to break up all the large corporations, as well as the government imposing the top tax rate of 91% to any income over $1 million a year at the least.

[bike man]

57. There are folks who have jobs at which they post on DU in the middle of the work week, in the

middle of the work day.

Sometimes they will even self-identify, with a "more info for the cube rats", or "I cannot download that photo on this work computer."

See if you can find one of those - they seem like happy posters

[Taverner]

82. And once I saw a welfare recipient....and they had a CELL PHONE!!!!!

[ctsnowman]

194. lol

[bike man]

204. Here's a thread talking about getting back on DU at work.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018377934

[Gormy Cuss]

114. Middle of the work day.... there's a name for that.

Lunch.

[pintobean]

116. 9:30 AM

on the west coast. It must be meatloaf.

[Gormy Cuss]

121. I was replying to a comment about the middle of the work day

while you seem to be referring to the OP. FWIW though not everyone works 9 to 5 and if the work day started at 6:00 AM a reasonable time for lunch would be around 9 AM.

[bike man]

120. And the 'cube rats' really only use the office computer for "not safe for work" stuff during

lunch break? You don't sincerely believe that, do you?

[Gormy Cuss]

122. What does NSFW have to do with it?

However, to answer your apparent question, which is do I believe that people don't post on DU while on the clock, of course not. I also don't believe that every person posting during the 9 to 5 hours locally is doing so from a job where it's prohibited behavior.

[bike man]

123. Really? With the warnings that have been posted along the lines of "Check this out. NSFW" And

prohibited or not, posting at work while on the clock using office equipment is in fact a form of theft.

But, YMMV

[socialist_n_TN]

131. Yeah, well surplus value is a form of theft too.....

Tavener and his other workmates CREATE the wealth for the owners.

[Gormy Cuss]

142. No, sorry. It's not theft if the employer endorses usage.

I've had employers who wanted no usage of company equipment for other than company business but I also had one whose policy was use it for personal use so long as it doesn't interfere with company business. That included getting your work done on time and a prohibition against circumventing the firewall and blocked sites list (which is where that NSFW would come in, and DU wasn't on it.)

In Silicon Valley such policies are pretty common.

[CreekDog]

135. did you alert on the dying person's thread during your lunch break?

please don't lecture us how to act when you clearly don't know how to yourself.

[mtnester]

215. ^ this...right...here

[pintobean]

216. Still trolling the hosts forum to out alerters?

You're a real class act.



For reference:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022681898#post97

[LibDemAlways]

61. I hear you. I'm a substitute teacher and technically a

contractor, too, since I get paid by the job and have no benefits whatsoever. I am expected, however, to prerform all of the duties of the teacher while I'm in the classroom. I'm also frequently ordered to take over another class during what would normally be the teacher's break. That's what I call being taken advantage of. It sucks being in the netherworld between fulltime employment and unemployment, but that's what contracting basically is.

[uponit7771]

64. I take it you work in IT? tia

[AAO]

67. Isn't it "Bang" "Galore"? Sounds almost as fun as Bangcock and Phuket!

[cali]

69. Whoa...

you fucking complain about being treated as less than human in the same fucking op in which you write this?


Besides, there are a bunch of workers in Bengalore who would be willing to slit their whole families' throats for a chance to interview at this job.

Jaysus. How fucking tone deaf can you be? Textbook illustration of cognitive dissonance.

[Taverner]

71. Do you know how competitive India is?

Seriously, India is a prime example of why Ayn Rand is wrong....by her logic India should be a paradise with all that competition.

I exaggerate, yes, but a lot of the folks I know on H1Bs complained that other people at their own agency would do what they could to mess up others' chances to get H1B visas. Stuff like reporting them as extremists, etc.

[cali]

73. and that has shit all to do with YOUR casual racist shit.

[Taverner]

75. Hardly racist. If I'm such a racist, why don't you alert?

I am sure you could find some people to vote your way...that is, after all, how bullies do their thing...intimidation, baseless accusations and plain making stuff up...

[Ishoutandscream2]

103. Definitely a bully, Taverner

Try to ignore, or put on ignore. I swear there's no one more hateful here than that one.

[Taverner]

109. I should learn the first rule of trolls

DO not feed the trolls

And Cali's sock puppets are something to behold as well

[cali]

186. sure, I'm a troll. Pathetic.

oh, and I have never had and never will have a sock puppet. Unlike YOU, whatever else I may be, at least I'm honest.

[bluestate10]

140. I don't agree with Cali often, but he is no bully or troll. For you to remotely make such an

allegation, even a masked one like you made, is pure bullshit on your part.

[Ishoutandscream2]

213. Definitely a bully.

When someone posts something that she disagrees with, her tone is very nasty and she curses at the person she is disagreeing with. It gets personal, and ugly. A very nasty disposition, and it goes against all rules of decency when debating a topic.

[Ishoutandscream2]

214. Look at post 69 as exhibit A

Rude and cursing the OP. That is in no way the most effective way to debate a topic. You can disagree, and be civil about it. She rarely is.

[RetroLounge]

157. What a pile of stinking bullshit

RL

[dballance]

81. What They're Doing to You is Called Wage Theft I Believe

If you are an hourly contractor you are probably exempt from getting overtime pay. But you must be paid for the hours you work.

Even Wal-Mart has lost some court cases for not paying workers for their hours worked. They lost in a class-action suit.

Can't you report it anonymously?

[mountain grammy]

86. Contractors (pay your own damn FICA) Temps (low pay no security)

This is capitalism at it's very worst.. The rich get richer, nothing for the working class.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

88. Want to get REALLY pissed off?

Go to the local country club and hear the owner bragging to another "job creator" about how cheap his labor costs are.

[cbdo2007]

92. How much are you getting paid??

[Little Star]

95. Unregulated capitalism has to be the worst system in the world.....

and the great old USA is just about there.

To me the best is a mixture of socialism & regulated capitalism. But what the f do I know.

[ctsnowman]

193. "But what the f do I know."

Judging by your post you know everything one needs to know.

[grump3r]

100. Truck Driver

I'm a company driver with no way to afford my own truck: too much student loan debt.

My pay is $0.27 per mile, I work 70 hour weeks, my only downtime is the 3-4 days home a month or 34 hour restart (sometimes days like today waiting for a fax to cross the border), my daily 10 hour restart is spent eating/paperwork/sleep, and if I'm lucky I'm stopped at a truck stop I have shower points at. Most nights I'm stuck at rest areas.

Yet the morons in the industry wonder why their turn-over rate is high, and have a hard time hiring.

Canadian drivers have it good over US ones.

The kicker is I was an IT contractor with a B.S. My congressman doesn't even give two licks about truckers. We need to be included in minimum wage laws, and fair hours.

As in force the industry to do 300 mile hops (swap with drivers local to that area), and pay drivers per hour. With a 5 day work week.

Heck, road safety would improve because I see so many other truck drivers flying by me just to get the miles.

This just seems like a pipe dream though.

[tridim]

101. Never do contract work for an LLC. NEVER.

It cost me $36,000 to find out that it's legal for an LLC to not pay you for completed work.

[OneGrassRoot]

102. I hear you. It's a form of terrorism in and of itself. Keeping people in fear. n/t

[harmonicon]

107. Dude, I was with you until you got quasi-racist about it.

I'm pretty sure there aren't people who would murder their families for a job, and definitely not an interview, no matter where they're from... right? Right?!

[octothorpe]

110. Do you work in IT by any chance?

I've been in that contractor loop for a long time now. Sometimes it's not bad at all, but other times (probably more often than not) it sucks like the situation you're in. It's not too bad if they pay decent, but many of them try to pay less or the same as you'd get as a regular employee, but you're not getting the benefits. Want heath insurance? Pay for it yourself... But if they are paying wages on the lower end, losing that $130/mo might not even be possible. They might cut you at anytime too because some (not all) don't really view you as a person. So you try to save money up, but because they are too cheap to pay a decent wage (often times), you can't always do that. That being said, I've also had contract gigs that paid well and where I was treated well. They seem more rare now though.

[Dreamer Tatum]

112. Oh brother

>I am a contractor
>That means I get paid for 40 hours of work, whether I do 40 or more
>If I do 39, I get paid for 39 hours of work. If I do 50, I get paid for 40.

Want to know another word for that phenomenon? "Salaried". Welcome to the world of work.


>If I complain, I am fired.

If you complain like you do here, you probably should be.

>If I take this up with the state, I get fired and probably blackballed.

Depends what you take up and how you do it.

>I will "never work in this town again."

Pretty doubtful.

>I can leave, and that's about my only freedom.

That's your FUNDAMENTAL freedom.

>We are expected to drive sales so they can get bonuses. We don't get bonuses.

Who is "they?" Be specific. "The powers that be" is a cop-out non-answer.


>Long ago they promised full employment if you do a good job.
>Ha.
>I haven't seen one contractor go perm in the almost 2 years I've been here.
> It's a joke.
Were you smart enough to get that in writing?


>Yes, I know many of you out there have it worse.
>But that really doesn't matter.

Said the employed person bitching about being employed.

>And guess what? This place was recently given an award for being one of the best companies to work for!!!

Maybe it is? Maybe you're the unhappy one?

>If I had enough money to survive unemployment for a while, I might consider trying to unionize us.

Unionize WHO, exactly?

>But all of us have been well scared away from that.

Sounds like until you can get hired or organize, you should be happy for the work you have?

>Besides, there are a bunch of workers in Bengalore who would be willing to slit their whole families' throats

Then, gee, don't you think you have a pretty desirable job?

>I'll say it again....
>FUCK CAPITALISM!!!!

Wow...profound.

[Swede Atlanta]

119. This is why "right to work" laws mean "right to screw employees"

There should be basic work rules that all employers must follow, a basement if you will. Employers that recognize the value of attracting the best would exceed those minimums.

I don't understand a country that wants to deny workers basic work and wage rules while refusing to ask the richest of us to pay a little more.

[still_one]

126. If you are a contractor and they pay you work 50 hours, and they pay you for 40, in California that

That is illegal

Unless you are a contractor by the job, and not by the hour

My perspective is from software engineering

[jeff47]

138. Actually, it's illegal everywhere in the US

Federal law requires paying time-and-a-half after 8 hours in one day, or 40 hours in one week.

The problem is this law is pretty much never enforced. Employees are unwilling to report abuses, because it's really obvious that reporting will cause them to be fired. And getting hired again would be difficult, even in a good economy - word gets around that you "aren't a team player".

So despite the federal law, employers really do not fear not paying for overtime.

[still_one]

141. Actually there is something called nonexempt, which means you make a straight salary, but that does

Not pertain to contract work

In California they really try to protect labor

The company I used to work for tried to not allow us to carry our vacation over, use it or lose it, but that is a catch 22 when you can't take vacations because the schedules are so tight

Anyway California allow you to carry over your vacation and you cannot lose it

[jeff47]

162. You've got that backwards

Exempt employees are the ones overtime law doesn't cover. Most are management. Some are salaried. But there's some odd exceptions.

[still_one]

167. You are correct because I am in that category, and no, I am not management, just a programmer

Working 12 hours a day

[meaculpa2011]

179. Other way around.

An exempt worker is exempt from overtime and minimum wage laws and makes a yearly salary. The last "exempt" job I had was 1980. Many hours, lots of travel. When a project completed I was usually granted payback time.

[Honeycombe8]

139. What do you think the opposite of capitalism is? It ain't "work 50, get paid for 50."

It's work whatever is necessary, to take up the slack for your co-worker, who can't come to work this week. Then that co-worker gets part of your pay.

That's socialism. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

And forget about a raise based on merit. That's not socialism. That's capitalism.

Don't blame one bad employer on capitalism. What they are doing is ILLEGAL. It's against capitalism. But that's how it works at my employment company, too. They pretend they don't know if I work more hours, but they know. I turn in my time.

There are some down times where you work, aren't there? Where you chat a bit or whatever? You're not really focused and very productive. You don't get docked for that. So if I work a couple of hours longer, I figure it all evens out. Working TEN hours longer is a different matter entirely, though.

I'm definitely pro-capitalism. That's how people get ahead and get paid more because of merit. It's not always fair. Nothing is always fair. Socialism isn't fair. But at least with capitalism, you can bust your ass and get paid some serious money. I have. It's hell going through it, but nice when you get paid for it.

[tiredtoo]

144. I am going to try to link this thread in my blog tomorrow

hope it works

[Rosa Luxemburg]

153. That's why we should have unions

to fight for the workers

however, our teachers' union is spineless

[Jamaal510]

166. Capitalism isn't the problem.

I think capitalism is OK when it is better-regulated and when there is more socialism mixed in.

What this country needs to do IMO is to not only focus on job creation and re-building the public sector, but also return to the pre-Reagan top tax rates in order to wipe-out the deficit and to better-fund government services, because it is obvious that millionaires and billionaires will mostly just continue to sit on their cash and not spend it to fuel the economy. We still have yet to see any productive results after roughly 3 decades of Reaganomics aka. trickle-down. Not only that, but another thing I would like to see is public-financing of elections; no more millionaires spending oodles of cash on ads just to avoid paying slightly extra in taxes.

[tofuandbeer]

172. +1

[HiPointDem]

174. capitalism *is* the problem, because capital *must* grow, and growth means eating others.

[limpyhobbler]

169. Amen dude. It's time for some big changes. nt

[tofuandbeer]

171. 12 Years ago I was making $21.00 an hour...

I got a new job and by the time I was laid off (last July) I had slowly reached $25.00 hour.
Since my layoff, I'm looking at the same job for $20 an hour.
Something's wrong...and it's not me, I've kept my skill set well above what I had years ago.
It's all gone overseas.

[truedelphi]

176. That seems to be the sad and sorry pattern. And

Welcome to DU.

[tofuandbeer]

210. Yes. And with the sequester, I see this kind of thing becoming a permanent part of our country. :(

[TXleigh]

178. Crazy idea...

If you feel as if you are not getting paid what you're worth for your performance, find someone who will reasonably pay you for what you're worth. If you can't find anyone who will pay you what you think you are worth then maybe you should take a closer look in the mirror and reevaluate your earning potential. No one should get a hand out for complaining if the complaints can't be backed up with evidence of unjust treatment. I hope you find something that makes you happy, but in the mean time... Welcome to the club. You hate your job? There's a club for that. It's called everybody and we meet every night at a bar.

[oberliner]

182. Learn a new skill and get a different job

Be the change you want to see.

[HughBeaumont]

195. How do bills get paid as his life hypothetically gets put on hold?

Where does the money come from to get this training? Where's the money for this training going to come from when he has to do it again? If he's working during school, when will the time come to devote to projects and papers? Does he add an extra few hours on to the day?

Is there a guarantee that the next skill he learns . . . whatever that may be, I wouldn't know . . . won't follow the one he currently has offshore or into obsolescence?

What IS that "new skill" going to be? Will he have to compete with cheaper and already seasoned counterparts for it?

[oberliner]

198. Not easily

I was just suggesting trying to find a way towards a more satisfying work life if at all possible.

Sometimes people don't allow themselves to think outside the box.

However, if it's not possible to make such a change, then just make the best of the situation.

"I could be bounded in a nutshell, and count myself a king of infinite space..."

[ag_dude]

205. Why do you think it's somebody else's job to answer those questions?

[HughBeaumont]

206. "Learn a new skill" may have worked 30 years ago with relative ease . . .

. . . in 2013 (hell, in 2003), it's not exactly the be-all/end-all or the walk-in-the-park it once was. "The Great Risk Shift" took care of that. We're now expected to be experts in all subjects, have infinite amounts of liquid cash for multiple trips to college, expected to have multiple careers in our lives instead of just one and expected to pay all of our living expenses while taking on expensive and time-consuming learning.

I hardly think it's wrong to ask for some "what ifs" or "hows"; some substance behind a "Secret"-like saying. Otherwise, it falls flat on it's face as a solution.

[ag_dude]

207. If you expect to stay ahead of other nations

...and not have your job shipped over seas, you have to find ways to keep yourself ahead of them.

If you are looking for the color by numbers path to success, you are going to be passed up by the rest of the world that's more than happy to color by those same numbers.

Otherwise, the only argument for keeping your job here is "I'm a murican damn it!!!!"

[HughBeaumont]

208. Come on, let's not be naive here . . .

I'd buy the knowledge argument if I didn't first-hand see people with Masters Degrees getting laid off because the company made some bad decisions not even remotely related to their position. What, did they make bad choices? Did they not work hard enough? "Shoulda, Woulda, Coulda"??

I'd buy that argument if I didn't read multiple accounts from already-skilled software engineers forced to train their overseas replacements for severance pay.

I'd buy that argument if our always-cheaper overseas counterparts (and let's be honest here, THAT'S why they're attractive to our corporations) couldn't get the same knowledge/degrees we can for far less out-of-pocket expense.

I'd buy the re-training argument if it didn't require the worker to be the fortune teller of business trends that's not required of the executive on the firING side of the desk.

A path to success nowadays is hardly "color by numbers". "The Great Risk Shift" that corporations made into the rule since the early 80s now makes that path more like "cross a 2,000 foot-deep canyon using a bridge made of frayed rope and decaying wood planks".

Brushing off realistic economic concerns with more "life isn't fair" nonsense . . . hate to break this to you, but this isn't going to have a happy ending, for you, for me, for ALL of us, if life doesn't get fairer really damned FAST.

[bike man]

217. Well, there was this "I am free" thread of not too long ago, proclaiming freedom

from the working world http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018262661

[TXleigh]

209. How would you answer your own questions?

How does anyone do this? Well in fact millions of people do it every single day. We work extra hours and save money or take out loans to invest in ourselves and our futures. Is it easy? No. Is anything in life guaranteed? No. But that makes it all the more worthwhile if and when you get a return on your investment.

[HughBeaumont]

211. That's kind of the point. I want to hear the answers from a "Bootstrapper".

Last edited Thu May 2, 2013, 09:58 AM - Edit history (1)

And it looks like I just got what I came for. More "life isn't fair" nonsense. More "blame the victim" horseshit. You know who says that, right?

The person who says this kind of thing really does not know and, more importantly, does not CARE about the economic futures of our work force and where it's headed.

The basis of my argument is this: If our business leaders have no idea what the future holds or what careers will lead us into the mid 21st century, I'm really not getting how it's a feasible or logical solution for our economic ills to expect a worker who doesn't even have HALF the know-how of anyone in finance or business to figure that out and hope for the best.

Let me ask you another ponderable . . . What is this getting us?

American corporate leaders, pundits and legislators deem it a tried and legitimate solution to ask an already financially strapped worker to fork over thousands upon thousands of dollars he or she does not have to invest in a future that's not guaranteed to stay onshore or become obsolete once they attain that expensive piece of paper. Not ONLY that, but they're expected to do this one, possibly two or three TIMES in their lives. We should go to college because we WANT to, not because we HAVE to.

When you go to college for the purpose of career betterment, THAT'S your career and THAT'S your college. DONE, finito, end of sentence. Anything else after that should be for personal betterment. I didn't spend thousands of dollars of my own money for some wonk to tell me I have to do it all over again. Sorry, ain't got a money tree in my back yard. Ain't got two to four extra hours in a day. Keeping up with the bills we HAVE is hard enough, now we're expected to add THAT expense on to it? And we don't even know if it's going to pan OUT or provide us with the security that we won't get laid off again?

If I'm spending five digits, I want ANSWERS that aren't "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". Otherwise, I'm burning my money on a whim and a prayer. Otherwise, it's a crapshoot which I'm holding the bag for if it doesn't pan out. Otherwise, it's just another way to burden an already-strapped worker with yet MORE risk, MORE debt, MORE uncertainty.

[AngryOldDem]

184. K&R n/t

[patrice]

201. K&R!

[Recursion]

212. Some lawyers make a cottage industry taking cases like yours

There's definitely Federal and possibly State relief available for employees who are illegally treated as contractors (the Federal standards for determining if someone is an employee are very strict -- if they set hours, you are an employee, for instance, in nearly every case).

Look one up; you might have a windfall coming your way.