So Zimmerman gave up

[nadinbrzezinski]

Last edited Tue Apr 30, 2013, 07:38 PM - Edit history (1)

the stand your ground hearing...gotta wonder what O'Mara (the defense lawyer) has under his sleeve...

Per the Rev Al show

(I hate autocorrect)

[Egalitariat]

1. A no-brainer legally

In Zimmerman's best case scenario - one where a judge believes he didn't start the fight, Zimmerman thought Trayvon was going to beat him to death, and he shot only to protect himself - no judge would have granted him immunity knowing the outcry that would follow.

And he'd have to show a bunch of his Defense cards.

[HipChick]

2. Wow..he blew up...he put on 100lbs

[csziggy]

40. The first time he was in jail he bought a bunch of junk food

That's what he spent most of his money on. He's tried to have his house arrest order lifted because it was "bad for his health" - obviously he's getting no exercise.

Do you think his guilty conscious is goading him to eat himself to death?

[Berlum]

53. Dude is trying to STUFF his feelings of guilt with food

A shitty strategy leading directly to FAIL. What a Republican.

[mwrguy]

3. He is claiming simple self defense, not 'stand your ground'

He claims that he was attacked and did not have the ability to retreat, so SYG does not enter into it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

5. "Not having the ability to retreat..."

Isn't that the very definition of the SYG law?

[ManiacJoe]

8. It is the exact opposite.

SYG says you had the ability to retreat but chose to stand and fight instead.

[Yo_Mama]

22. Uh, no, the reverse

Self-defense has always been legal, but the common law doctrine has been that only necessity established a legal defense to use of lethal force that resulted in someone's death. So if you were under attack but had the chance to retreat, you could be prosecuted because you had the DUTY to retreat rather than use lethal force IF YOU COULD RETREAT.

Castle doctrine usually refers to being in your home and faced with an intruder, and pretty much removed the homeowner's duty to retreat from your home rather than use lethal force to defend yourself. It's not as if you can just shoot an intruder in your home, though.

SYG is commonly expressed as being someplace that you were legally okay to be, doing what was legal for you to do, and establishes that you do not have the duty to retreat rather than use lethal force if you are attacked or if some other person is attacked.

Self-defense was always established if you used lethal force without having the ability to retreat. For instance, if a woman is grabbed and dragged into the alley, she can whip out a knife and gut the guy because she was unable to retreat. She may then face prosecution for carrying a knife, but under the traditions of common law, she wouldn't face prosecution for murder or wrongful death.

But of course, when there are no witnesses, it may be difficult to establish that you did not have the ability to retreat.

[Buzz Clik]

28. I cannot see how he has a prayer with self-defense.

He initiated the entire problem from beginning to end and defied police orders to back off.

[Pelican]

35. Look at it from a legal and more dispassionate viewpoint...

He'll claim that he saw something he perceived to be suspicious, approached Martin to speak to him in a non-threatening manner and was attacked.

I believe there are witnesses who claim to have seen Martin on top of Zimmerman and don't forget the problems with the girlfriend's statements.

There is a solid chance that he could walk.

[Blue_Tires]

38. No chance--unless he gets an all-white jury or something

and from day one I've been asking the 'there-is-a-solid-chance-he-walks' derp crowd what he POSSIBLY saw that was SO suspicious he had to call 911; insinuate in that call that the person he was following was 1. armed, 2. possibly on drugs, and 3. possibly related to a string of local burglaries...

World class detective work being able to ascertain all of that from someone walking down the street...

Face it -- Zimmerman (who remember has no legal or moral authority) was itching to nab a bad guy so he'd have something to show for all the wasted hours on his supposed "neighborhood watch"; sized up Trayvon Martin as a CRIMINAL from the first second he saw him, then follows and confronts him...The term for that boys and girls is called RACIAL PROFILING...

[csziggy]

44. His phrasing in the call about Martin is nearly identical to an earlier call he made

About another "suspect" he was reporting in conjunction with a break-in. I don't have the link anymore, but it was released by the Sanford PD early along. Zimmerman used the same phrases and same tone about another young black man walking through the neighborhood. In the earlier call he also refused to give his home address, same as on the call about Martin.

It was as if he had a script to read when complaining about people he didn't like walking down the streets in "his" neighborhood.

[Blue_Tires]

50. and like i said before

his use of "on drugs" and "armed" in his call was completely intentional, especially since he had no visual proof of either...Doesn't even matter if you use the qualifier "I think he may be possibly____" before it... Those are buzzwords that the dispatcher is trained to remember and pass on while she radios cops on the street...

Of course, without those buzzwords, what substance does Zimmerman really have in his 911 call? "Send the cops because I see a black teenager walking on a sidewalk..."

[csziggy]

57. Yep - Zimmy had the script directly from the SYG crowd n/t

[Pelican]

63. 99% of that doesn't matter...

It isn't illegal to be a racist asshole in America. Racial profiling only applies to law enforcement and the like.

As long as he can convince one person on that jury that he approached Martin in a non-threatening manner and that Martin reacted by attacking him...

He'll walk...

[Blue_Tires]

64. It *IS* illegal once you start infringing on civil rights

And certainly Florida has some law on the books about stalking, intimidation, etc, etc...

and WHY on Earth would he have approached Martin in a "non-threatening" manner? He's already called 911, believes Martin to be a criminal, armed, on drugs and maybe part of a burglary ring (those are his own words)...Zimmerman ain't Andy fuckin' Griffith; he IS the threat...

For the record, if you were in Martin's shoes, how would you have reacted when you saw that piece of shit following you? Do you even know what it's like to be racially profiled??

EDIT: Nevermind; I already know who you are -- Just between you and me, is this sock account number 50 about now? It's been a year already...Doesn't this get old for you??

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

82. slackmaster lives!

Last edited Wed May 1, 2013, 11:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Last post: April 19th http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=124430

Member since April 19th http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=303496

[customerserviceguy]

79. Police orders?

That was a dispatcher, and probably doesn't constitute the same thing as a uniformed cop standing in front of you, telling you what to do. O'Mara will slice and dice the dispatcher in court.

[Buzz Clik]

80. Ok.

I am impressed by the number of legal experts at DU. I had no idea.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

81. Not a legal expert, just wishful thinking on his part.

Anyone who defends George Zimmerman, or plays devil's advocate on his behalf should be banned. Sick and tired of seeing this contrarian bullshit on DU.

[Pelican]

83. Well that sounds boring...

Not sure why there is even a trial since it is so perfectly clear exactly what happened and what the motivations were...

Seems like a waste really...

[customerserviceguy]

89. I'm not doing either

I just know how lawyers work. O'Mara would have stayed a thousand miles away from GZ if he didn't think he had a good chance of winning. When a lawyer can take a case where "everybody knows the defendant is guilty as sin" and get that defendant off on whatever technicalities, or better yet, manufacturing of 'reasonable doubt', then that lawyer stands to make big bucks from rich and famous defendants, including any banksters that may someday be hauled into court.

All I'm doing is observing his pretrial chess moves. You have a lot of gall with less than a thousand posts talking about who should be banned for their comments on things in the news.

[brush]

19. Trying to avoid civil suit

If zimmerman's lawyer pulls off the most spectacular defense and gets zimmerman off, because of this new wrinkle, zimmerman cannot be sued in civil court.

He's rolling the dice and hoping he gets off in criminal court and then doesn't have to worry about civil suits at all.

He wants to kill and be completely unscathed, save for those couple of weeks he spent in jail when the judge caught him lying about having no funds.

Real good character guy this zimmerman.

[Egalitariat]

20. He doesn't care at all about a civil suit

He'll be bankrupt and judgment proof. He's worried about showing his hand.

[brush]

37. That too

The legal analysts on HLN proposed that he was trying to avoid a civil suit that would put him in life-time debt should he get off in the criminal case.

[sabrina 1]

43. He still can be sued in Civil Court. See OJ who was acquitted then sued and lost in Civil Court.

[brush]

72. The motion is why his lawyer advised him to do it

To avoid being sued in civil court in case he gets off. Also I believe there won't be a jury now. The judge decides it.

[jmowreader]

73. I don't think civil proceedings were the big issue here

Oh, they were an issue; he knows he's going to be sued. He has a more pressing problem: the police told him to stay in his car, he refused, and the situation escalated to him killing Trayvon Martin with a gun. Not only would he have lost the SYG request, the testimony would have been used by the prosecution in the murder trial.

There are two possible outcomes for George Zimmerman. He is trying to avoid the one that ends with "may God have mercy on your soul." There are two ways that could happen. First, if the prosecution can convince a grand jury to upgrade Zimmerman's charge to first degree murder, the prosecutor will try to make this a capital case...and this is Florida, where governor races have turned into fry-offs. The other is if Zimmerman is charged with a federal hate crime. The facts of this case are not in doubt and they are damning.

[brush]

74. I'm hoping you're absolutely right

Last edited Thu May 2, 2013, 10:49 AM - Edit history (1)

I just think that lawyer of his has something up his sleeve with that motion.

[jmowreader]

84. Right now, Zimmerman's most pressing need is to not go to general population

We have an admission he killed Trayvon, a recording of the cops telling him to stay in the car, and a state that really believes in throwing people in jail for less than this. Putting Zimmerman in GP is a de facto death sentence - there should be no question what the brothers will do to someone who gunned down an unarmed black man.

[MellowYellow]

4. My whole problem with Zimmerman was that he followed Trayvon on foot.

If you're so afraid that someone might beat you death then why stalk them? If you can't go fist to fist then don't go looking for trouble.

[VanillaRhapsody]

6. By this analogy...as a female

if I am stalked by a man in a dark alley....and I think he is out to do me harm....if that person puts a hand on me...and I manage to fight back and in the melee the guy gets killed....I am at fault for killing the guy? If Treyvon had of been a woman and not an African American teenager....would there even be a doubt? Treyvon had no reason whatsoever to attack Zimmerman other than he felt he was defending himself. It's that simple.

Trayvon is a teenager that has been taught his whole life that there are strangers out there that want to do young people harm. He had no idea what the hell Zimmerman wanted....He had every right to defend himself. Zimmerman is at fault for this...He may not have intended to kill that night...but he is responsible for that young man's demise. He was not law enforcement...he had no business doing what he did and he was even warned not to do it. His behavior caused that death...and he should pay for that!

[uponit7771]

9. Exactly, I've been using the young Latina supposition for while and it's easier to see why ZMan is..

..guilty because if ZMan had shot a young woman fighting back after she was being chased throughout a dark nieghborhood by a guy with a gun and with bad intent and for no legal reasons then ZMan would be under the jail by now.

But since ZMan shot a young black male that's OK because the young black male is perceived as a threat

[JI7]

12. the only reason this is being debated is because Trayvon was a black male

[MellowYellow]

15. No. That's not what I said. Zimmerman stalked Treyvon. So if you were to stalk a man in a dark

alley then you better be able to defend yourself without using a gun to do it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

18. say what?

I used the reverse analogy on Zimmerman's defense...As a woman I find it ludicrous!

[MellowYellow]

25. Ok, I got you now. Yes, Trayvon being stalked in the dark had every right to defend himself.

Zimmerman in my book really has no defence. He stalked Trayvon and once you stalk someone you become a stalker. You can't legally shoot them when they defend themselves.

[VanillaRhapsody]

34. Totally! Can you imagine

using a more realistic theory...if a man stalks me...then attacks me....but I fight back and in the attempt to save my own life I manage to momentarily get the upper hand....he has the right to kill me?

Makes no sense at all!

[Pelican]

36. Please stop using the word stalk...

It has a specific legal definition that involves repeated actions.

Followed, aggressed, verbally assaulted.. whatever

[BklnDem75]

46. It has many definitions

Stalking - Verb

1. Pursue or approach stealthily: "a cat stalking a bird".

2. Harass or persecute (someone) with unwanted and obsessive attention: "the fan stalked the actor".

Only one fits the legal definition. Doesn't mean Zimmerman wasn't stalking.

[H2O Man]

21. Well said.

Very well said, indeed. Thank you for this.

[hack89]

23. That is not what Zimmerman is arguing

he is saying that he stopped following Martin and was heading back to his car when Martin attacked him. He was getting his head pounded into the ground and feared for his life. So he pulled the gun and shot.

If his story is true, it would be a legal self defense shooting according to Florida law.

I have no idea if a jury will buy it - I sure don't

[csziggy]

47. The timing for Zimmerman's story proves it wrong

His entire story is bogus, none of his claims hold together. He claimed to be looking for a street name - there are four streets in the entire subdivision where he had lived for several months and been a "neighborhood watch captain" for four months and he didn't know those four streets? He claimed to be looking for house numbers - on the backs of the houses rather than the fronts?

I believe Trayvon Martin had a better claim for self defense than Zimmerman. A strange man was following him with no apparent reason even after Martin got off the street an onto a walkway. He did not know why this man would follow him other than for nefarious purposes. I believe Martin was defending himself when Zimmerman shot him.

[hack89]

54. That is why we have trials and juries

to sort all those questions out.

[csziggy]

58. Yes, I want Zimmerman to have a fair trial

And that is all the Martin family ever asked - a fair trial and not let Zimmerman off without a question because of the SYG law. Since he was arrested they've said they are satisfied that he will get justice and they have moved on to work for justice in similar cases.

[pokerfan]

68. That's what he says but the timestamps don't match

7:13:41 — Zimmerman's call to Sanford police ends
7:16:XX — Martin's call from the girl goes dead during this minute. (Start of the scuffle)
7:16:55 — Gunshot heard on 911 call.

If he was headed back to his car (about 35 yards away), then he was taking his sweet time about it. Was he still hunting Martin?

Dee Dee: And then he told me like the guy was getting close..like..and he told me the guy was getting real close to him. The next I hear, 'What are you following me for?' I hear this, ya know, man… it wa’ like a ol’ man say, ‘Wha’ you doin’ aroun’ here?’ And I call Trayvon…’Trayvon, wha’s goin’ on, whas goin’ on?’ I callin’ him…he didn’t answer and I hear, I hear a sound like “bump.”

[hack89]

69. The judge and the jury will sort it all out.

I am not saying his story is true. I am simply saying it is his story.

[pokerfan]

71. Zimmerman's going to have to change his story again

According to Zimmerman's original account, after he got off the phone with the NEN, Trayvon jumped out of a bush, spouted some B-movie gangster dialog and punched him in the face.

That timing is patently false according to the phone records. We know that the confrontation didn't occur until two and a half minutes later.

[graham4anything]

76. Zimmy is the NRA poster person. Any NRA/gun fan is now forced to hope Zimmy is let go

because this is the single most explosive case the NRA ever fought.
It's very existence depends on Zimmy walking, and it isn't going to happen.

[hack89]

78. Hyperbole much?

Zimmerman is irrelevant to the NRA. How does their existence depend on him being found innocent?

[graham4anything]

85. Zimmy is the defining moment, as his lynching of an innocent man, Mr. Martin was akin to

Mathew Shepard being strung up on a fence and lynced.

A breaking point in civil rights and who the NRA and its gun fans are.

[hack89]

86. So Zimmerman will destroy the NRA where Sandy Hook couldn't?

Zimmerman is guilty as hell but no one is going to blame the NRA, especially now that SYG is no longer an issue.

[graham4anything]

87. all pieces of a too be reinterpreted 2nd in the future. Stop the Cronyn Amendment reciprical

[hack89]

88. Are you for real?

this has to be an act.

[uponit7771]

7. Yeap, now he's basically claiming that he had a burden to flee and didn't...he loses the second he..

...says Martin turned around and questioned him

[hack89]

24. He says he was heading back to his car when Martin jumped him. nt

[Blue_Tires]

39. Did he ever say WHY he was following Martin in the first place?

And did he ever reveal the nature of his conversation with Martin? (I know the second question is useless because Zimmerman can make up any unprovable story he wants)

I've been waiting a year for his "official" answer on these....

[hack89]

41. He thought Martin was a criminal looking for a house to break into. nt

[Blue_Tires]

48. Which is why he tracked him going all the way to a gas station and back again?

Yeah, that one will hold water...

And as I said from the beginning, WHO in the name of hell breaks into suburban houses at 7 p.m. on Sunday evening? Sunday evening is overwhelmingly a time when someone is usually home, and even if they aren't, neighbors are guaranteed to spot you...

I live in a well-to-do republican enclave (lot of senior citizens here too), and we're constantly targeted by burglars... After casing certain houses/streets (Always case by car; never on foot -- At least then your excuse is you got "lost" if someone talks to you...It's riskier, but for more detailed intel you can also masquerade as a door-to-door fundraiser) 95% of the time they strike midday in broad daylight...They take their time, since no one will be home for hours, and just to be sure dress up in work coveralls and drive a panel van or covered pickup...THAT is how suburban burglars operate...

Of course this is all academic, because we all know Zimmerman's excuse is bullshit, and black folks seven generations back all know the golden oldie "you looked suspicious", or "someone matching your general description was seen doing _____"

[hack89]

65. The judge and the jury will sort it all out. nt

[DrDan]

10. Mark O'Mara is Zimmerman's lawyer

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. I hate auto correct, thanks

[ProgressiveProfessor]

13. This was fully expected and is indicative of nothing

The other motions were much more interesting. The defense claims slow rolling by the state and may score some points with that. The motion to depose the family lawyer should be even better. Classic grounds for appeal if Zimmerman loses the motion and the trial.

[Buzz Clik]

27. This was expected? Why? This seemed like the golden opportunity and test case.

High profile. Dead, dark, scary person wearing a hoodie. Wannabe cop kills him while defending the neighborhood. Seems perfect.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

31. Its going to be a straight self defense case. This has been known for some time

SYG has already been upheld in the courts in FL and this does not qualify.

[Buzz Clik]

33. Hm. Sounds like this was non-news for those paying attention.

Which, clearly, doesn't include me.

[dmr]

14. Apparently his lawyers will bring this back up later on in trial.

If he had the hearing now, he'd have to testify.

His lawyers don't want him testifying now, because he may end up testifying twice (now and later).

At least this is how it was explained on HLN today.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. The lawyer in rev Al's show

Said that they could not bring it later

[ProgressiveProfessor]

30. They cannot bring up SYG but they can and will raise self defense

That is his only available defense at this point.

[Kalidurga]

17. He really doesn't have much choice.

Sure he could go in front of a judge and explain how he was standing his ground. But, he would be very likely to lose that argument and he would give away his defense doing so.

[Incitatus]

26. Casey Anthony Got off.

O'Mara and West are excellent lawyers. Zimmerman may have been in the wrong, but never underestimate what good defense lawyers can do.

[Bjorn Against]

29. O'Mara has made some huge blunders in this case

O'Mara tried to sell the court on the notion that Zimmerman was broke when he had to have known that huge sums of money were coming into Zimmerman's website through donations. O'Mara should have told Zimmerman that they were not going to lie to the court and that they were going to report the website donations, but instead they lied and Zimmerman ended up back in jail with a perjury charge. O'Mara is at least partially at fault for Zimmerman's perjury arrest because he knew or at the very least should have known that the testimony was false yet he assisted in presenting it anyways and destroyed any last shred of credibility that Zimmerman had in the process.

O'Mara has also made some boneheaded moves in presenting Zimmerman's case to the media, first he brought Zimmerman on Hannity's show where Zimmerman stated that Trayvon's death was "God's Will", something that can and will be used against him in trial. Later George Zimmerman's brother sent out a racist tweet, this can't be blamed on O'Mara because O'Mara himself condemned the tweet but he should have left it at that. Instead he had Robert Zimmerman go on Piers Morgan for a debate, Piers Morgan is a very outspoken opponent of guns and it should come as no surprise that he gave Zimmerman a very tough interview. Zimmerman came out looking even worse after he went on there and proved just how insincere his apology for the tweet was. O'Mara should have reigned him in after the first tweet, instead he allowed him to dig the hole deeper.

I think O'Mara may have been a good lawyer before he found the spotlight, taking a case this high profile however has built his ego to a point that he does really dumb things to keep his name in the news even if it harm's his client. He may have been an excellent lawyer at one time, but in this case he has been a really crappy lawyer.

[csziggy]

56. The Hannity deal may have been made before Zimmerman was arrested

There was some talk that Zimmerman had called Hannity's people before he "turned himself in" and that some of the money collected by Zimmerman's website was a "donation" to get the interview.

I put "turned himself in" in quotes since Zimmerman apparently did not expect to be arrested, he said he was only told he would be interviewed by the State Attorney.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

32. All it takes is one hold out

This is not going to be a slam dunk in court

[Blue_Tires]

42. You can say that about damn near any case...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

45. Indeed. I expect there to be much caterwauling from many parties

[Blue_Tires]

49. On the other hand, I'm expecting justice

nothing more, nothing less...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

51. Justice is rare in a court these days

Not supposed to be that way, and maybe I am just a skeptic in my old age, but she is rarely seen these days.

Have to wonder what kind of coverage CNN's Nancy Grace will be doing and which side she will take.

[Blue_Tires]

52. Grace's coverage and whichever side she supposedly "takes"

will have fuck-all to do with how this plays out in court...

I wasn't even aware people still watched Grace; it's not like she has the most sterling of reputations...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. If there were not ratings to be made she would not have that time slot in CNN

Been watching TV a bit more these days. Just amazed at what I see.

Journalism has always been a crock, but what is on TV still amazes me.

[uponit7771]

75. Casey Anthony case had around 8 hold outs, they saw no evidence.. prosecution was a joke

[cheyanne]

59. Talkleft web site has full explanation of legal issues invovled.

Also, links to videos of area, interviews, timelines of events and phone calls, and recordings of Z's phone calls to 911.

By the way, the prevailing opinion is that the state has no evidence that Martin attacked Z.

The website is run by lawyers, they presume innocence of suspect, then follow the strategies of the opposing sides. Very interesting.

[OldHippieChick]

66. Thanks for this link nt

[LanternWaste]

60. My guess is the final outcome will be...

My guess is the final outcome will be a plea down to man-1 (maybe man-2), 3-5 years with time served, out in 18 months.

[mainstreetonce]

61. I agree

He won't take the chance of a heavy sentence.

Too much evidence against him.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

67. I would expect such an announcement soon

if its going to happen.

The result of the motions hearing could have a substantive impact on that.

[Hoyt]

62. He's only got to convince one juror in a state full of bigots and gun nuts. eom

[pokerfan]

70. Nothing up his sleeve

Only that a pre-trial immunity hearing places the burden of proof on the defense and would likely involve Zimmerman taking the stand. Mark O’Mara doesn't want to go there unless he has to. Zimmerman will probably be a train wreck in the witness box. The highlight (for me) yesterday was (defense co-council) Don West taking the stand. From the Leatherman legal blog:

After Mark O’Mara questioned Don West on direct regarding the alleged discovery violations, Bernie de la Rionda did a nice job cross examining him by getting him to admit that the prosecution and defense discovered some information simultaneously, as in the case of Dee Dee’s hand written letter to Sybrina Fulton that she had placed in the family Bible together with other letters of condolence.

West’s effort to make an issue about BDLR failing to disclose that Sybrina Fulton sat next to Dee Dee when she was interviewed also came across as irrelevant nitpicking rather than a Brady violation.

BDLR also nailed West making him look foolish when West could not explain how Dee Dee’s hospital excuse about missing the funeral and wake because she could not face looking at Trayvon’s dead body had anything to do with whether the defendant murdered Trayvon.

http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/04/30/zimmerman-voluntarily-waived-his-right-in-court-today-to-an-immunity-hearing/

[customerserviceguy]

77. O'Mara absolutely positively

believes he can win in court, otherwise he would have went for the stand-your-ground hearing. He knows that if he gets GZ off with a jury trial, that's the only chance his client has of surviving, and in the process, he becomes the go-to lawyer for every rich defendent for the next few decades.

I think he's going to win his case. He surely does have something up his sleeve.

[Blue_Tires]

90. What could he *possibly* have up his sleeve?

retroactively plant a switchblade at the crime scene? (that's actually how they used to do it in the old days; but that window of opportunity has passed)

[customerserviceguy]

91. I guess we'll see

I'm sure he'll tear down state witnesses, make Trayvon look like a thug, etc. I don't think he took this case to lose it.