Some cultures ARE wrong

[Uzair]

The Saudi Arabian culture, where women are not allowed to drive, is wrong. Little kids being put into beauty pageants is wrong. The supersize me, fast food with no regard to your health and children's health culture is wrong.

And lest anyone here accuse me of picking on only one region, the Wall Street culture of greed above all else is wrong. The unhealthy body image culture of the fashion industry is wrong.

Moral relativism is invalid. You can't just say "to each his own" and write off certain immoral and dangerous aspects of human behavior as "cultural". This includes YOUR OWN CULTURE as well. We, as progressives, must question our own upbringing and so called "way of life". I was raised to believe homosexuality is a sin. I rejected that upbringing.

The gun culture, where 500 children die every year because people think it's ok to give a child a gun as a gift is also wrong. It is a contributing factor to the massive amount of pain and suffering wrought upon tens of thousands of people every single year. The reason politicians have no spine to pass sane gun laws is because of this twisted culture. They're afraid of losing the next election over it.

When I tell people to grow up, what I mean is question your own ways. They may SEEM normal to you, but that doesn't make them right. Although it's emotional, the facts will always set you free. And the facts are on my side, not yours. Start thinking with the front part of your brain, not the back part.

We're talking about life and death here, life and death of CHILDREN, no less. I think their lives might be worth a little bit of honest reflection about your upbringing, your culture, your "way of life".

[aristocles]

1. To judge something wrong you have to have a standard

What is your standard?

[randome]

3. No one needs to have a standard or a thesis or a flow chart. We are not robots.

A culture that officially discriminates against women is one we should abhor.

[HereSince1628]

13. I am guessing that your gripe with robots has something to do with

a notion of freedom of will to make choices.

How does one detect what is the moral/ethical thing to do in a given moment of free choice?

If there isn't an inherent quality (a standard) that motivates ethical/moral action how does one freely choose the ethical/moral action?

[randome]

17. Emotions do factor into our decisions.

Like it or not, many of our morals and ethics are part and parcel of being human. They are conditioned by culture and upbringing but they are already a fundamental part of our psyches in the same way that our kidneys are a fundamental part of our anatomy.

That doesn't mean we don't use our intelligence and logic to determine our actions. There is a balancing act to perform. Logic should not always be ascendant. Our emotions should not always be ascendant.

But thinking a culture is wrong for discriminating against women, for virtually enslaving them, is, to me, a 'no-brainer', meaning I do little in the way of analyzing why I 'should' feel that way. I suppose that's one of those few times when I let emotion carry the day.

Our Declaration of Independence is based on 'self-evident truths', not a structured analysis of why America was 'better' than Britain.

[The2ndWheel]

25. The Declaration of Independence is based on the opinions of one group

Which is why there had to be a war to settle things.

Might makes right. Everyone has an opinion, but it takes force, in one form or another, to implement policies based on those opinions. That's why the spoils go to the victor.

[HereSince1628]

28. Yes exactly. Homo sapiens behavior relies tremendously upon acquired information

that gets integrated into a system of knowing how to live. Among species we know, we are the one most reliant on learning.

I would argue that the moral system we acquire is basically one that privileges our various needs and desires. When I set the boundaries on behavior larger and ask about moral behavior not only with respect to humans in my culture but to all human culture, and not to just humans but to all the other organisms I share the planet with, I soon come to realize that my "morality" is by and large anthropocentric and not transcendental

[oldhippie]

7. We don't need no stinkin' standards ......

We have FEELINGS!

[CrispyQ]

11. Do no harm. -nt

[HereSince1628]

20. That's a surprisingly thorny issue for a heterotrophic species

Last edited Thu May 2, 2013, 11:23 AM - Edit history (1)

And not only are we heterotrophic, we are omnivorous and thus have a theoretical proclivity to destabilize and simplify ecological communities.

And not only are we omnivorous, we are domesticators forcing many otherwise 'free' species into lives of unnatural captivity

And what organisms we don't consume, or put to our service, we tend to crowd out to make room for our purposes or we poison with the polluting by-products of our existence.

There is no harm only if we take the view that it is ethical to ignore the requirements of our existence or that in the natural world there is no harm, only costs, which somehow average out over the biosphere.

[CrispyQ]

43. Agreed, it is.

Leave as small a footprint as possible.
Eat as far away from your DNA as possible.
Don't judge other people.


It's not perfect, but this is what works for me. Oh & like the OP said, always question your values. If they withstand the scrutiny, good. If not, change them. Too many people just go along with what society says is OK, without every questioning why do we do or believe certain things. With current education standards, it's just going to get worse.

We are consuming our ecosystem for the profit of a few & the general attitude seems to be "get it while the getting is good." If we survive the next couple hundred years, I think our species will look back to this time as the greatest squandering ever.

[galileoreloaded]

83. or more aptly, Do know harm. smart post

[Uzair]

23. My standard is the facts

The facts are the facts. When you have a country with lax gun laws that has 30000 gun deaths and/or injuries every year, as compared to similarly developed countries with strict gun laws that have near zero, well it's hard to ignore that.

[aristocles]

40. Those are not facts, just data

There may be other factors that result in fewer deaths...like...culture.

[DanTex]

47. Actually, data are facts.

It's true that there could be (and probably are) other factors involved. But the data don't support the hypothesis that the homicide differential between the US and the rest of the first world is due to culture, because we don't have higher rates of violent crime across the board. We have more guns, and since guns are more lethal than other weapons, we have more homicide.

[aristocles]

64. Data are unanalyzed, unorganized, unjudged. Facts have been analyzed, weighed, and judged.

[bhikkhu]

38. Equality

...would be mine.

As the basis for a moral and ethical value system it works very well, but its also a challenge in any culture to implement. Hierarchical orders are a universal feature of human cultures, ours as well as others, and they are fundamentally opposed to equality.

[Bake]

45. Most people have a standard, but just can't necessarily express it cogently.

One standard (and I happen to think it's a good one) is the action that results in the greatest good for the greatest number of people. And by that standard, yes, many cultures, our own included, are wrong on many issues.

Bake

[sibelian]

48. Ridiculous assertion. Who needs a "standard" to know that dead children is the wrong outcome?

Standards are COMPLETION of a process of moral thinking, not it's beginning!

[ZombieHorde]

2. The "wrongness" comes from you, not the culture.

"Wrong" is your reaction to some aspects of some cultures. Your reaction is valid, but it is not a quality of the cultures you are perceiving.

[hack89]

4. So what is your opinion on America's alcohol culture?

it creates more misery for children then guns do.

[randome]

10. Alcohol is an indirect cause of misery.

Official government-sponsored discrimination is something else.

[premium]

5. I don't need you to tell me to question my ways,

I'm very comfortable with the culture I was brought up in, the way I brought my children up, and the way my grandchildren are being brought up.

You're sounding like one of those "moral" repukes, you know, the ones that think they know what's better for you than you know yourself.

[whathehell]

30. Sorry, but Americans, especially on this board, are constantly being told to "question their ways"

by people who "think they know what's better" for us than we know ourselves.

Why should we be the only ones?

[premium]

44. Hey, I'm all for butting out of other peoples/countries lives.

We should concentrate on our problems at home and not be the world's "policeman".

I grew up in a culture that was pretty much live and let live and that's how I live my life and I take great umbrage when someone tells me that the culture I was raised in is wrong and that I need to change, well, fuck that, I don't need some morally righteous person telling me how I should change the way I live.

It irritates the fuck out of me when someone, who doesn't even know the culture millions upon millions of us grew up in, thinks they know what's best for me.

[whathehell]

67. Yep.

"It irritates the fuck out of me when someone, who doesn't even know the culture millions upon millions of us grew up in, thinks they know what's best for me"

Say it loud, premium, say it loud.

[premium]

68. Not. Quite. Sure.

what to make of your comment, I don't know if you're mocking me or agreeing with me.
Could you please clarify, it would be appreciated.

[whathehell]

72. Okay, I was a little unsure myself.

I think we are agreeing. I am kind of sick of people who've likely never set foot in this country

getting carried away with the criticism and "advice".

When you talked about the "culture you grew up in" I assumed you were talking about the US

Am I right there?...Even if you grew up elsewhere, I'm certainly not mocking you, it's just that

I need the answer to my question to finish and explain what I was trying to say.

[premium]

75. Yes, I was born and raised in the U.S.,

Last edited Fri May 3, 2013, 12:43 AM - Edit history (1)

Grew up in Nevada on the banks of the Topaz Lake just across the CA border off U.S. 395 in the Sierra Nevada mountain range, after Vietnam, I lived in Montana for a time and then moved back to Nevada, have never lived in any city of any size, rural all my life.

I grew up in a culture of live and let live, firearms were an integral part of life, so I have a real problem when someone, who has probably never lived outside of a city, tells me that my culture is wrong and I need to change.

I sincerely hope that explains my attitude toward the OP.

[whathehell]

76. Okay, I understand.

I always lived in urban/suburban areas and firearms were never a way of life for me or anyone in my family.

That being said, I've nothing against people owning firearms, as long as there are safety regulations in place.

I think the OP may have been talking about cultures other than what you've described. I think he/she was

talking about cultures which denigrate and oppress people, not for what they DO, but for what they ARE: -- women,

people of color, etc.. The difference is that owning guns doesn't necessarily hurt anyone. Cultures where

certain populations are treated unequally DO hurt people.

[premium]

77. Maybe,

but when he writes things like this.

The gun culture, where 500 children die every year because people think it's ok to give a child a gun as a gift is also wrong. It is a contributing factor to the massive amount of pain and suffering wrought upon tens of thousands of people every single year. The reason politicians have no spine to pass sane gun laws is because of this twisted culture. They're afraid of losing the next election over it.

then I have to question his honesty, 500 children a year die because people think it's ok to give a child a gun as a gift? Not even the FBI or DOJ stats back that up.

I guess you could say that 500 kids die each year due to gun violence, but most of that is, tragically, in the inner cities due to the ongoing gang/drug wars, crushing poverty, lack of jobs, etc., not because of guns given to kids as gifts.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't need nor want someone, who probably has no idea of the rural life, telling me that my way of life is wrong and that I need to re-think the way I was raised, the way I raised my kids, and the way my kids are raising their kids.

Here's a picture of where I grew up, this is what we saw from our front yard.



Good times, sure do miss living there, may move back in the next few years.

[whathehell]

78. Okay, but I do believe that a four or five year old kid is WAY too young to be handling guns.

and I don't believe the five year old who just killed his 2 year old sister was from the "inner city".

[premium]

79. And I agree that 4 or 5 is too young to be handling a firearm

No, he wasn't from the inner city, what I said was, most of the gun violence is in the nations inner cities.

The reason this 2 year old girl is dead is because the fucking parents left a loaded rifle unsecured around an unsupervised child, when I was growing up, all firearms were unloaded and secured in my dad's gun safe which was in our parents bedroom and we knew better than to go into their bedroom.

These idiot parents should be, IMO, charged with negligent homicide.

[whathehell]

80. We seem to be in agreement, then. n/t

[sibelian]

49. You shouldn't.

Also, you're not.

[laundry_queen]

31. Of course you are comfortable with it

Just like Saudis are comfortable with women being unable to drive.
Just like slavery was comfortable for the plantation owners.
Just like fundamentalists are comfortable with homophobia.

And you sound like one of those 'freedumb' repukes, you know, the ones that think anything done for the greater good means the commies are coming.

[premium]

41. No, I believe in freedom of choice to choose how I live,

I don't need someone telling me that I was raised wrong, that I raised my kids wrong, the my kids are raising their kids wrong.

I guess that whole freedom thing is now a repuke thing. When did that happen? I didn't get the memo.

And to equate those repugnant things to the freedom of raising my family as I see fit proves that you..............
Ah, never mind, we're done here.

[DanTex]

50. Well, the abuse of the word "freedom" certainly is a right-wing thing.

Notice how so many of their PACs and Think Tanks always have the word "freedom" in them? Tossing out the word "freedom" to defend the indefensible is very much a right-wing meme.

[premium]

52. You have the freedom to think what you want,

is that a RW thing also?

[DanTex]

53. Well that's a strange non sequitur.

[premium]

55. Yeah, after I hit the post my reply tab,

I realized it was kind of strange.
I'm truly trying to figure why it's a RW thing to say that I'm glad I had the freedom to raise my kids as I saw fit, my late parents had the freedom to raise us as they saw fit.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it as a left/right expression.

[DanTex]

56. Of course you should be able to raise your kids how you want to.

The OP never suggest you shouldn't be able to. Just that the gun culture is harmful.

As an example, let's say for arguments sake that we agree that the Wall Street culture of greed is bad and is harming the nation. That doesn't mean either of us are suggesting that Wall Street execs shouldn't have the freedom to impart that same culture of greed on their children.

[premium]

57. Ok, I got it.

Thanks.

[kudzu22]

6. That's interesting considering right and wrong are culturally derived

or are you a member of the One True Culture?

[whathehell]

32. There are few moral absolutes, but I think most here would agree that killing people on the basis

gender, color, or any other condition of birth would be one of them.

Just sayin'

[DanTex]

58. The belief that right and wrong are culturally derived is itself culturally derived.

Are you prepared to argue that slavery wasn't wrong because it was socially acceptable?

[kudzu22]

62. Well, it's wrong in our culture.

And I can't remove myself from my culture. Call it Heisenberg Sociology

[aristocles]

8. Wrong and right are culturally derived

I agree.

If I were a Saudi, the lower status of women would be right.

If I were Papuan, eating other humans would be right.

As someone else said, there is not One True Culture.

[randome]

9. If you were a Saudi man, you mean. Therein lies a great deal of disconnect, I think.

[aristocles]

12. I meant that...If I were a Saudi man nt

[whathehell]

82. Thank you. I pointed out the same fact

he's apparently unable to deal with it.

[geek tragedy]

15. Sure, just like slavery culture was a good thing if one was a rich plantation owner

and Nazism was a good culture if one wanted Jews to die.

[aristocles]

16. If that was your culture you would consider it right

Do you assert that there is objective right and wrong?

[geek tragedy]

21. Objectively, there is nothing of value in humanity, Earth, or the universe.

So, objective analysis is an ancillary element to evaluating human conduct.

[aristocles]

24. So, if there are no objective values how do you evaluate anything? n/t

[geek tragedy]

29. By not worrying about the lack of objective values. nt

[aristocles]

34. And so your evaluations are meaningless, unless you can convince others to evaluate the same way

[geek tragedy]

36. My opinions have meaning to me.

Yours do not.

last word is yours

[aristocles]

37. We're discussing how you evaluate something...not your opinions. n/t

[whathehell]

85. Quite so.

Nice to see an evolving consciousness of women and their lives emerging.

[whathehell]

35. "If I were a Saudi, the lower status of women would be right". Maybe not if you were a woman

unless you're prepared to say: If I were a Saudi, the lower status of LGBT people

would be right -- even if I were an LGBT person.

[geek tragedy]

14. Certain elements of every culture can be labeled 'wrong' but it gets into

dangerous territory to try to delegitimize an entire culture.

[Phillip McCleod]

18. agreed. one has to recognize that one's idea of a culture..

..is not the culture itself. it's one thing to be angry for instance with Saudi national culture for it's suppression of women, but if i bump into a saudi man tomorrow, he like anyone else will receive the full benefit of the doubt as an individual..

every individual deserves the chance to shape the culture .. rather other people's idea of their culture.. to which they are assigned by circumstances of birth.

[randome]

19. Religion is so interwoven with SA culture, it's difficult to see the trees for the forest.

[geek tragedy]

22. Yeah, what part is religion and what part is cultural practice that has become identified

as religion, e.g. not eating pork (gives you trichinosis) in Judaism and Islam.

[randome]

26. If a practice harms no one, it should be ignored.

But the practice of discrimination and virtual slavery are not -and should not- be viewed objectively.

That applies to aspects of both Judaism and Islam, IMO.

Even the Catholic Church is starting to reconsider its laundry list of discriminations. I think under Pope Francis, we may see some major changes. And that makes me hopeful that other cultures can 'come on board' with ending their more abhorrent practices.

[Turborama]

27. Welcome to DU

I'm sure we've met, I just can't put my finger on it...

[get the red out]

33. I completely agree with you

Thank you for daring to post this. I hate cultural relativism, we get to sweep a lot of death and destruction under the rug and out of sight with that term. Disgusting.

[DonP]

39. How does that make you any better than the "culture" that decided native cultures were inferior?

The British in India and South Africa, the Americans in the West, the Japanese in China all "Knew that the native cultures were wrong and inferior to their 'enlightened' insight and moral superiority" and had no problem sweeping them away at the point of a bayonet.

Based on your short sighted attitude, the only problem with what they did is they weren't as "smart" as you seem to think you are.

Heaven protect us from arrogant judgmental asses that have a POV of cultural and moral superiority.

[randome]

42. Why do we need to be 'better'?

What's wrong with calling out discrimination and virtual slavery when we see it? It's not like the vast majority of women under Islamic rule have much to say about it.

In isolated instances, they manage to make a statement or two. But that's about it.

[abelenkpe]

46. I was brought up by parents that felt

it was proper to hit and spank their kids. And I don't mean a little tap. Was pretty easy to reject that concept. Everyone should always question themselves and their upbringing and aim to improve the world they live in.

[cbdo2007]

51. Just wait. All cultures will die out eventually and new good and bad cultures will start.

It's not a big deal really. It's the way of the world and things always have been this way and things always will be this way. The best solution is to just not worry about it and let all of those people and their crazy beliefs kill themselves off eventually, and hopefully you can prosper separately according to your own beliefs.

[bemildred]

54. I would say ALL cultures are wrong, some more than others.

But none at all are in a position to get too snotty with anybody else.

[DanTex]

60. There's nothing wrong with pointing out certain bad things about certain cultures.

For example, the treatment of LGBT people in Uganda is wrong. In fact the treatment of LGBT people in the US is also wrong.

[bemildred]

63. It is entirely possible, on the other hand, to criticize the bad things without

attacking the entire culture in question too, and likely to be more effective, especially since we are still far from having dealt with our own issues.

[whathehell]

81. Yes it is. n/t

[kestrel91316]

59. Thank you for the hit-and-run shitstirring flamebait, lol. Enjoy your stay.

[Kali]

61. you should put that in a sig line

then keep score of the alerts on it

[pintobean]

65. I actually laughed out loud.

I was going to post something like that, but I wasn't thinking about the score keeping. That's the part that really cracked me up.

[Kali]

66. ...

[marions ghost]

69. Well said

Gotta this

[galileoreloaded]

70. another authoritarian "for the children" spiel. at least you are consistent. n/t

[smirkymonkey]

71. I think that the bottom line is that if you are harming another human being

than it is WRONG. Whatever your culture is. I believe in live and let live.

[BainsBane]

73. It's possible to condemn certain practices

without labeling an entire culture as "wrong." Many, if not most, of Saudi Arabia's policies toward women are oppressive and immoral. That, I do not believe, means the culture over all is wrong or inferior.

Perhaps the thing to focus on is how you can persuade your elected representatives to stop subsidizing abuses of women's rights in Saudi Arabia? We do provide a good deal of aid to that nation since they are an ally. While we can't control what other nations do, absent war, we can refuse to fund it. We could insist on a bill of human rights that includes women's rights before we grant foreign aid. That of course would require sacrifices in terms of US geopolitical interests, but it could be possible.

[MrScorpio]

74. Would it be easier to state that just about ALL cultures have both relative wrongs & rights? nt

[Knightraven]

84. I say to each their own.

Why? I go telling people they are wrong and that must change, they will turn on me due to my lifestyle, appetites, religion and sexual preferences.

And please remember that if you go pushing at the Conservative and, if I am reading this right, Muslim lifestyle too hard, that me and others like me are going to get the backlash.