The pope says atheists pick and choose their morals. This is correct.

[WillParkinson]

[randome]

1. That statement is ripe for endless ridicule as in the pic you posted!

Last edited Sun May 5, 2013, 07:45 AM - Edit history (1)

On edit: Man, people are still misinterpreting the above subject line post as supporting the Pope. I guess no one reads the rest of the posts in a sub thread before making another post or they would have seen that I in no way want to be on the Pope's 'side'. In fact, I find that position to be a little embarrassing given that I have no use for religion in general.

"as in" is apparently being misinterpreted as "as is". It was a poorly worded subject line post but I'll leave it there so we can all have a jolly good laugh at it!

[amuse bouche]

39. Not by thinking, rational people

[JRLeft]

68. +1

[ISW]

70. +1,000,000

[morningfog]

121. What do you mean?

What is your problem with the statement?

[randome]

168. I referred to the Pope's statement, not the counter statement.

My post was poorly worded.

[morningfog]

170. Got it.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

134. So is your response to it...more so, infact.

[Katashi_itto]

157. Pope Francis extended a hand to those who don't belong to any religion,

Francis, who has set a humbler tone to the papacy since his election on March 13, added that atheists and believers can be "precious allies" in their efforts "to defend the dignity of man, in the building of a peaceful coexistence between peoples and in the careful protection of creation."

[stopbush]

179. The Pope can go fuck himself. Until he turns over the child rapists he's harboring

in the Vatican and in churches around the world for prosecution in the secular courts, I won't be bothering to listen to a word that comes out of his child rapist-enabling mouth.

[Katashi_itto]

183. Welcome to ignore..my family was actually touched by that.

[stopbush]

206. Welcome to "meh." Drinking the feel-good bullshit coming from the enablers of child rapists

isn't something any family should feel proud about "being touched by."

[panzerfaust]

158. Absolutely: Reason is always ridiculed by the Religious - unless they can kill the reasoners.

This is because ridicule is ever-so-much easier than thought. Especially easier than the thought that the pronouncements of an imaginary "god" from the Bronze Age might not apply very well to reality of the modern world.



Lighten up, join the modern world and throw a shrimp on the barbie mate, not a heretic on the fire.


Though do remember, as Christ does want you to burn alive all those who do not accept His Love, this presents the dilemma: Kill for Christ, or Live and Let Live for Humanity...

[Generic Other]

215. Lovely painting -- reminds me of this

[randome]

160. Um, guys? I meant the Pope's statement is ripe for endless ridicule.

Ugh. Did I imply I was on 'his' side? Please forgive me. That's...embarrassing. No sarcasm there.

[Buzz Clik]

234. DU atheists give me a major pain, but I completely agree with the OP.

[truebluegreen]

2. I never understood why so many people need an archaic book

to tell them to treat others as they would be treated themselves...which is the only good reason for the thing to exist. IMHO.

[Ikonoklast]

4. Instead of acting in a moral and upright manner toward their fellow human beings

because it is the right thing to do, they need the fear of punishment from a vengeful god to keep them in order.

[truebluegreen]

5. I guess.

Which requires me to ask where do they get off thinking of themselves as morally superior?

Which as we know plenty of them do.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

213. you mean just like the people who look down upon them for

'needing' an archaic book and can't help but insult and deride them?

Sorry to tell ya this but in my eyes both sides are just as bad in regards to thinking themselves superior.

[RetroLounge]

229. "both sides are just as bad"

No, they are not.

saying so is just lazy thinking.

I haven't read about an organized group of atheists raping children and then covering it up.

Have you?



RL

[Bodhi BloodWave]

237. i was refeering specifically to the 'moral superiority' attitude

and in that respect i find many atheists and religious people to be just as bad

[truebluegreen]

241. Why don't you try comparing actions

Last edited Sat May 4, 2013, 10:00 PM - Edit history (1)

instead of judging attitudes?

Just a thought.

P.S "just as bad" as what?

[RetroLounge]

243. +1000

RL

[Bodhi BloodWave]

248. likely because that wasn't the topic of this subthread

though on actions I'd say a fair number of priests and those above them comes quite negatively

[truebluegreen]

240. +1000

[Art_from_Ark]

262. I've read about organized groups of atheists committing atrocities

Like Mao Zedong/Tse Tung's followers in China, and Stalin's gang in the USSR.
The Reign of Terror was also spearheaded by avowed atheists committing atocities.

[RetroLounge]

263. Nice stretch there...

RL

[Art_from_Ark]

264. Stretch?

I think you may be unclear of the meaning of the word.

The "greatest" mass murder in history, Mao Zedong, was an avowed atheist. As was Stalin, as were the leaders of the Reign of Terror. So I don't get your "rofl" smilie.

[RetroLounge]

266. And they committed this genocide in the name of their non-god?

Whatever.

RK

[truebluegreen]

239. Pfft.

I think of them as inferior because the only reason they treat others well--assuming that they do--is that they fear what might happen to them if they don't. In other words, their concerns are not for others but for themselves.

But by all means, cling to your Bronze Age folk tales, if that's what blows your skirt up.

And your concern is noted.

[rhett o rick]

8. Ironically Christians choose their morals also. There are as many different interpretations of what

God expects for morals as there are Christians.

[Ikonoklast]

20. I don't need a reason to respect and care for others, I just do.

I pity those that need to be to told by an authority figure to do so.

[hrmjustin]

51. As a believer I do not need an authority figure to tell me how to behave.

I can do that on my own.

[Promethean]

59. And yet.

One of the most common responses by believers when discovering an Atheist is to assume they have no morals because the Atheist does not recognize the believers' ultimate authority figure.

[hrmjustin]

123. I know plenty of atheists that have better morals than I.

I am sorry that is the experience of many atheists. Believers unfortunately can wrap themselves up in righteousness, and it is not pleasant when they do.

[Phillip McCleod]

69. ah but you are 1 in a million ..

In fact I can't think of a believer I've met who responds like you..

..very much a *compliment*

[hrmjustin]

131. Atheist scare believers. They force us to face facts about our religion.

They make us look at the fact our religions did not come to us as a gift wrapped present from God. The fact is while many of our religions have a beginning point, they have evolved over the course of centuries. Many believers get scared when you ask those questions. If you take something away to them you take the whole thing. Someone mature in their faith can accept the fact that their religion over time has changed or evolved.

People still think of the word Atheist as a dirty word or something to be scornful of. I do not.

[OwnedByCats]

166. As a believer

I don't have a problem with athiests, unless they attack me for my beliefs even though I never attacked them and I wasn't trying to preach to them because quite frankly it's not my place. As long as they are nice to me, I'm nice to them. I know plenty of athiests who are good people - I believe most are.

I'm Anglican and while I don't walk lockstep with them on all issues, they are more open minded than most, especially on the gay rights issue. While they have more work to do on that, I believe they'll get there.

As a person who's ancestors fled England because of the monarchy's persecution of those who weren't lockstep with them on religion, I understand all too well that no one should ever be killed, tortured or imprisoned because of their religious beliefs, or non beliefs. Likewise people should not be ridiculed. It's not worth it folks. Just believe what you feel is best and let others do the same.

Of course my disclaimer: if any person promotes killing people for their religion, then they are a piece of shit, end of story. I don't advocate the radicalization of any religion that teaches it is ok to kill non believers or those that don't fit their warped views.

[alp227]

191. "attack me for my beliefs" what do you mean?

Criticizing your beliefs = an attack on you? that is right wing thinking. The thing with modern people is they don't like to hear they are wrong.

[kurtzapril4]

197. I'm an atheist, and I'm certainly not right wing.

I do not criticize peoples beliefs as to them individually, I prefer to criticize them as a group. Also, I have heard atheists AND Christians go on the attack against people who believe differently, and there is no question it is an attack. Tone matters.There is no reason for rudeness and put downs when discussing belief vs. non belief. JMO.

[OwnedByCats]

233. There is nothing right wing about it

You think only republicans are religious? Take a look around on DU. The liberals here who are religious are ridiculed on a routine basis, especially the catholics around the time of the new Pope being chosen. There were countless threads on this. When someone tells you how "silly it is to worship some invisible man in the sky", a person is not supposed to take that as an attack on them? Or when I responded to a woman who wrote an OP about her horrific childhood and how she ended up in a good place, with a wonderful husband - I agreed with her when she said that maybe God or something brought him to her. What did I get in response? "I'm sick of hearing this garbage" from a different poster in reference to my comment about God. I wasn't talking to that person, I was commenting to someone who brought it up and this person barged into that exchange which had nothing to do with them and felt the need to express negativity on that subject when it wasn't appropriate. I don't run around making comments like that to athiests EVER. I happen to respect their beliefs as their own and they are welcome to them. It's not my place to judge them.

Maybe it feels personal because I feel it's a very personal decision to be a believer, agnostic or athiest. If you attack someone's belief systems, you think they don't see that as an attack on them? I leave athiests alone about their beliefs because it's none of my business. I expect the same in return. If I were preaching evangelical bullshit all over DU about how athiests are going to hell and how immoral they are (which I don't believe btw) I could understand people getting upset with me. But if I make a comment to someone else who also happens to be a believer, it's not nice to bust in with rude comments. I wouldn't do it to them, even when it's just been done to me. Most athiests are extremely great people and respect the boundaries just like I do. However some are assholes about it - but there are also religious people who are assholes too. There are always some in every group.

[alp227]

236. So what's your point? We should not criticize others' beliefs?

That's the problem with too many people nowadays: they don't like to hear that they're wrong about something.

[OwnedByCats]

245. Hold on a minute

You don't KNOW for a FACT any more than I do what is in store for us once we die. Whether we die and that's it for us forever or we are reincarnated or there is an after life, neither one of us KNOW. You might be right, I might be right or we're both wrong. I at least recognize that my beliefs could be wrong, I don't walk around arrogantly telling people they are wrong. Somebody is wrong and I don't assume it's other people who believe differently. Neither one of us have 100% solid proof either way so you are no better than me, sunshine. At least I give everyone else the common curteousy to believe whatever is best for them. I know there are religious people that try to shove their beliefs down everyone's throat and I don't like that any more than any athiest. I equally don't appreciate it done to me by an athiest. Why is it any of your business what I believe? Your beliefs aren't mine and I'm perfectly happy with that. Most athiests respect that much, you could learn something from them.

[MNBrewer]

250. Making up fairy tales is a pretty silly way of dealing with how to face mortality

[OwnedByCats]

251. I didn't make up fairy tales

but unless you've died and have come back with the truth, you don't have a clue either.

[Puzzledtraveller]

255. How did you learn how to behave?

[hrmjustin]

259. My parents!

[DesertFlower]

81. well said. nt

[LiberalFighter]

115. They should be asked what is the genesis of their morals.

Based on the Christian religion which didn't become a new religion until after Jesus died? When did they decide their morals?

Or based on the Jewish religion which is the basis for Christianity? When were their morals spelled out? If before Moses what were they? If after Moses, then why were their laws created at this time instead of at the beginning? And why did other people like the Egyptians have laws before the Israelites? Were laws based on Egyptian laws?

[hrmjustin]

135. Christianity is based on the teachings of Jesus.

Many of the things that Jesus teached can be found in the Old testament. Over the course of many centuries the church evolved and fine tuned it's morals.
This is not to say that many of the morals found in Christianity were new at the time of Christ.

[LiberalFighter]

138. Jesus's training was based on the Jewish religion

And he was never a Christian either.

And you didn't account for the morals of the Israelites? And then there are Egyptians before Moses or the Babylonians with their Hammurabi Code that had their own moral codes sometime about 1750 BC. Moses was supposedly about 1312 BC.

In all likelihood Moses cloned his laws from those from the past that were not Jewish.

[hrmjustin]

142. Religions borrow from one another to some extent.

[LiberalFighter]

211. Exactly!

By piggy backing on another it gives them more credibility in the eyes of many. Compared to being an upstart by creating a brand new religiion.

[cui bono]

155. Not only that, they choose to follow a religion and which one to follow. n/t

[mzteris]

186. Yup. If Religion was "right"

they'd all have the same beliefs, now wouldn't they? Even within the same denomination, the same sect, the same church congregation - they all have different interpretations and beliefs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Well the Ten Commandments

Are, with the Hammurabi Code, ancient legal codes.

Some of them even apply today and are part of common, or criminal law.

Now the rest, like not eating shellfish...talk about fanatics being selective...my favorite still is selling daughters into slavery. Now one thing from those ancient tomes I would not mind to see back...is the seven year jubilee for debts.

[truebluegreen]

24. Oh, I know...

but why do people need some book to justify being nice to others?

I don't get it. I never will.

p.s. +1000 on the jubilee

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Believe it or not, I thnk science is starting to unravel

This...and religion might have been an evolutionary advantage into tribe and group creation.

I will argue...these days it"s mal adaptive. See climate Change.

That Noah story... yup, it comes often. No you dweeb, god promised not to destroy the word by flood...he did not say a thing of other methods including us.

[truebluegreen]

31. "Mal-adaptive"--absolutely true.

If I hear one more time from my dear sister that "the Lord Will Provide" as a justification for not doing anything about anything, I will

[nadinbrzezinski]

35. My nephews go to a Jewish school

Ok it's good for identity, but all Jewish schools are religious...some of the conversations leave me cold...yup, I lost my religion, I even know exactly where...a few decades ago.

So I know what you mean.

[WCGreen]

40. Because the book is full of murderin' and sexin' and all them good things....

[truebluegreen]

45. "...full of interest...noble poetry, some clever fables,

blood-drenched history, a few good morals, upwards of a thousand lies." (or something very close to that)--Mark Twain

[pokerfan]

86. Don't forget the obscenity!

It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies. -Letters from the Earth

[truebluegreen]

162. Dang! I knew I was missing something...

Thanks!

[panzerfaust]

159. "When one reads Bibles, one is less surprised at what the Deity knows than at what He doesn't know."

Said Mark Twain in his notebook.

In Letters from the Earth Twain also observed that as to the Bible,

"It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies." and that

"The two Testaments are interesting, each in its own way. The Old one gives us a picture of these people's Deity as he was before he got religion, the other one gives us a picture of him as he appeared afterward."

Finally, in Europe and Elsewhere he writes:

"The Christian's Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes...The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.

Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry.....There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. Hell fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant damnation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain."

Christians burning witches in the name of God.
Hallelujah! Halleluiah!! Alleluia!!!

Christians?: "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." (Mat 7:20)

[truebluegreen]

164. Used to have a copy of Letters from the Earth,

I don't know whatever happened to it. I need to read Mark Twain again. In the meantime, thanks for the reminders.

[tomp]

167. many who have read and promote the book....

...still don't do what it says. two millennia after Christ and what exactly has changed in how human beings treat each other?

[Phillip McCleod]

200. which part don't they do? selling daughters into slavery?

..jesus did say to obey the torah .. the laws of the the 'old' testament which is, of course, the primary book for jews.

claiming that the new testament is morally better than the old testament doesn't wash for me. it's a cop out, as in either case you have to pick the rare cherry out of a bowl of zombie eyeballs..

sorry for the bad analogy. it just seems so colorful.

[longship]

3. Yup! R&K nt

[HappyMe]

6. I'm not an atheist.

I frown on all of those things.

[randome]

10. You mean these?

[HappyMe]

13. I frown on those also.

Big, broad brushes aren't exactly on my smiley list either.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

79. They come in handy on a toe though.

Beats a permanent marker.

[Lex]

7. Exactly. nt

[upaloopa]

9. I can't understand why both sides in this debate

are so obsessed with what the other side thinks or does.
In my opinion if you are solid in your belief or non belief it shouldn't matter a twit what others believe or don't believe.

[Neoma]

43. Mainly because it can directly affect them.

As in creationism in public schools and what-not. A lot of atheists are in the closet when they're in a highly religious community also...

[upaloopa]

47. Then fight creationism

Your not going to change what some do by criticizing all believers.

[Neoma]

60. Like they're immune to criticism?

All beliefs and opinions should be scrutinized. Especially if they're trying to enforce these beliefs onto every single person they can get their hands on.

[upaloopa]

63. Nobody is forcing you to be Christian. Nobody

can make you think something. What you're doing is similar to gunners saying Obama wants to take their guns away.
You can scrutinize all you want but you aren't doing anything but getting yourself worked up.

[Neoma]

67. Nobody is forcing? You'd be surprised the kind of crap I've been through so I could be Christain.

My relatives are Southern Baptist, Evangelical Fundamentalist missionaries. They believe the Left behind books are a prophecy. You have no idea what pressures I've been under throughout childhood, and it's a huge assumption on your part that others didn't go through the same kind of crapola.

PS. I was dragged out of my room on the carpeted floor to be forced to fucking church.

[upaloopa]

72. I am speaking to an adult I assume.

Sure kids have been forced to go to church but still no one can make them believe anything.
I was brought up Catholic. I didn't believe as a child and I still don't believe. Nobody can force me to believe something or force me to go to church.
The far right are the American Taliban but so far the First Amendment trumps them.

[Neoma]

73. Funny enough, I don't actually go arguing with Christians if I can avoid it.

And I'm not really atheist.

[Phillip McCleod]

76. i hear ya..

..I had nothing nearly so insane happen to me but the stories mount up. It's hard for believers to fathom how *abusive*religious indoctrination can be. It apparently is more important to make sure nobody paints with too broad a brush.

Yes.. we get it. Not all believers are cut from the same cloth. Atheism as a global movement is as or more diverse than any other progressive movement. That's why progs should give it the same level of support as anyone else.

[DesertFlower]

84. i was raised catholic and was forced

to go to church and catholic school. as soon as i left HS and went to work my mom stopped forcing me because i was paying room and board and she needed the money.

[Neoma]

94. In my case, my mom and I were prey to her in-laws and siblings at a certain point.

Family feuds, death threats, threats in general, assault... Heck grandma started treating me like shit for not getting baptized...

Don't really want to go there, blech.

[DesertFlower]

116. OMG. that's terrible.

i remember when i divorced my first husband i was at my grandma's house. 2 of my aunts were there. i said "i'll probably re-marry in about 3 or 4 years". my grandma said "you can't do that -- you were married in the catholic church". she wasn't nasty or anything like that. she was just acting like a good catholic. i did re-marry 4 years later, but she never said anything. she liked my 2nd husband -- everyone did.

[Neoma]

117. You have to keep this in mind I guess.

Southern Baptists = Pat Robertson.

Can I go back to a different sect? Not after that. I see too many contradictions and I don't want to rely all my emotions on a book from the Bronze Age... Especially after I've seen it used as a tool for abuse and authoritarianism. People don't realize, people don't realize, people don't realize...

Closest I can get to is Buddhism. Feels peaceful.

[DesertFlower]

141. i've heard about southern baptists.

i've got my own beliefs which i think i mentioned on this thread. buddhism seems peaceful. i had a body worker who was a buddhist almost his entire life. about 10 years ago he was ordained as a monk. his wife and 3 daughters are buddhists. very nice people.

i love the dalai lama. talk about peaceful.

bill maher calls the bible "the book of old jewish fairy tales". i tend to agree.

[Jamastiene]

146. I don't think most people realize that Pat Robertson is just the tip of the iceberg.

A lot of people are aware of what Pat Robertson says, because it hits national news and it well known. They don't hear some of the outlandish things said by preachers and even local government in some areas, especially in the Bible Belt, where no national attention is given. It actually gets worse than Pat Robertson. Pat Robertson is just the one they DO hear. They think it can be tuned out later in life, but when you were raised Southern Baptist, it stays with you long after you start trying to heal from all the abuse. It stays like a damn sore thumb and never truly goes away. The damage from that type of abuse that lasts well into adulthood. I still have nightmares, to this day, of that all-white* Southern Baptist Christian school I went to when I was a younger kid. Those who have not experienced it will never understand. We can explain until we are blue in the face and they will still brush it off. They have never experienced the extreme abuse to that point that they can ever understand. Like we can just brush all that we have experienced off, lol, little do they know.

*In the 1980-1981 school year, the school was still all-white. A black family looked into enrolling their daughter there. The preacher who was also the principal of the school had a special PTA meeting about how to stop that from happening. That was what finally made my mother realize I needed out of that school. By that time, many of us had stomach ulcers, had heard the principal/preacher of the school tell us he slept with his daughters because his wife was "frigid," and some had been molested. That preacher is gone now, terrorizing someplace in Tennessee last time I checked, and the school is integrated now, but back then...those of us who went there, who haven't committed suicide or gotten extremely addicted to drugs, are still struggling to recover from that SOB who ran the school during that time.

[Mariana]

152. Pat Robertson is rich and famous

because a huge number of people agree with him and approve of the things he says. They send him lots of money so he'll continue saying those things.

[Neoma]

178. People without money say those things.

[SomethingFishy]

221. No. Pat Robertson is rich and famous because

he is well trained at manipulating people, he knows where to look for weakness and he exploits it.

Look up some of Pat's quotes on Google. And tell me again how a HUGE number of people think that a "good" Christian leaves his wife if she gets sick. Or that Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands and kill their children. Or that you get aids from kissing. Or that God sent aids down to smite homosexuals, or that America treats Christians like the Nazi's treated Jews. Thes are all Pat's "beliefs" and there are tons more that no sane rational person would believe.

Sorry a couple million idiots are not a "huge" number. Big enough to make Pat rich and keep him on TV. Especially when he gets Grandma to send in her Social Security check and not to worry because Jesus will make sure he's fed, or at least some other kind person who isn't taking her sole source of income.

[Mariana]

225. Who says his fans are sane rational persons?

I've known people who believed all those things. The idiocy of what he says is really irrelevant. The fact remains that there are many, many people who heartily agree with him on those very opinions that you repeated. In some places in this country, they are the majority, and they elect crazy-ass people into office because they want laws made to reflect those opinions. You really believe Pat's a fringe character? He isn't, not by a long shot. He has clones preaching the exact same ideas in thousands of churches.

[Neoma]

175. I barely even try to explain anymore. I don't want that time period stuck in my head.

Sometimes, It feels like the great thing about my life is that I wasn't raped. Abused, neglected, isolated? Yeah, been there done that...but at least I wasn't raped!

[cleanhippie]

188. Yet CHristians is public offices ARE forcing their beliefs on us all through legislation and policy.

And THAT is the problem.

[hrmjustin]

205. I agree 100%

If they were advocating for the poor and helping people in need I am fine with it. But unfortunately the Gop and some democrats are pushing this nationalistic patriotic Christianity where Jesus is for lower taxes and carries a gun.

[Neoma]

78. Now that I think about it.

Basically if you keep religion out of the schools, government, and women's pants... I don't think people would go around arguing so much. Homosexuality, birth control, abortions, evolution, Muslims... You see a lot of hate out there. So you have people that try to combat it. Usually Christians quote scripture as justifications, so they're very open for an attack to their religion whether they like it or not.

[ReasonableToo]

130. Agreed n/t

[RainDog]

65. because religions are political institutions

and they try to force their views on nations in which they operate.

they are the ones who have overstepped their boundaries and tried to tell the U.S. govt,. they should be able to discriminate against women.

they are the ones who have stated that rights for gblt brothers and sisters are "from Satan." (this is a paraphrase of the latest Pope's claim that gay marriage equality comes from "the father of lies."

they are the ones who claim they have Jesus on the mainline yet spent decades shielding pedophiles from justice and, instead, made it possible for them to continue to abuse children.

funny, a lot of people think an organization like that has NO moral authority and, honestly, looking at the track record, should slink off into the dustbin of history where their ideas and actions belong.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

89. This may shock you but we atheists don't dwell of others beliefs much...

Can't say the same for Christians though. They feel it's their mission to convert everyone. The Fundies actually believe Satan already OWNS you and the ONLY way you can be "saved" is THEIR WAY. As far as they are concerned they can also be as NASTY as they want because they have an iron clad contract with Jayzuz to go to heaven.

[upaloopa]

97. You say you don't dwell on other beliefs

but you list a few in your post.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

98. So you are saying that stating others beliefs is a belief.

[Jamastiene]

145. It is kind of hard not to think about those beliefs when they are shoved in our faces

and right down our throats every time we turn around. That's the point. If religious leaders would quit dictating to the entire country what they want, the rest of us would go on our way. Where I live, you can't walk two steps without running into another person trying to proselytize. You don't dare say you are an atheist or even agnostic in the Bible Belt, not if you know what is good for you. They will NOT take no for an answer.

[cleanhippie]

189. What is wrong with you?

[OwnedByCats]

252. I agree that that most athiests do not

dwell on the beliefs of others - but nasty Christians and nasty athiests are the same to me. If a Christian ridicules you, that's wrong. If an athiest ridicules me it's wrong too.

Live and let live I always say.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

253. When I was a kid my folks got me the Time Life series "The World's Great Religions"

The idea being that I could know there was a wider world.

A lot of people believe "freedom of religion" means raising their kids to believe their faith is FACT.

Which leaves them unprepared when they travel.

[OwnedByCats]

254. Well I don't agree with that either

I think a child is too young to make that type of decision anyway.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

257. I know,...terrible to indoctrinate a kid into thinking...

I also got astronomy and books on dinos.

[OwnedByCats]

260. No I meant that

drilling one particular religion into a child's head is what I don't agree with. I see nothing wrong with giving children a vast array of things to learn. I didn't have a particularly religious upbringing, my parents really did not go to church unless for a wedding, funeral or it was our local polling place. For a time I went with the grandparents, wasn't keen on that so it wasn't for very long. My husband's parents tried their very best to make him into a Johovah's Witness, which thankfully didn't work. At about 10 years old he began refusing to go to church. Of course because he did not choose to be a JW, he is excommunicated from his parents. What I mean is adults can make decisions for themselves if they want to be religious or not. Like I said, I'm not judgemental to another's beliefs. It's not my place to judge their feelings. I just expect the same in return. If a Christian is picking on you, I would defend your right to belief as you wish to them too.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

261. But many don't respect your right to believe as you wish...

[OwnedByCats]

265. WTF?

If I didn't know any better, I would think this was a joke lol
Sadly, I know it's not

So first they're convinced this girl is from Africa when she's really from India (so we're dealing with ignorance already), but then ostracized for being Hindu "I know you were raised that way, but if you want to go to heaven you have to convert sometime". Then the one girl says she doesn't know if she can be around that "type of presence", when she was unsuccessful in changing her view, even though "I know you're not a bad person". Good grief. It is sickening and the kind of narrow-mindedness I really hate.

I'm in agreement with you on this. What they are doing to her is flat out WRONG. It's wrong no matter who does it.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

267. It's got it's comic elements....

"Krishna....Christian...Is that what you call Jesus in your language?"

[OwnedByCats]

268. LOL, yep

Sometimes you have to laugh, otherwise you would cry

[Spitfire of ATJ]

269. What gets me is their little "seance".

[OwnedByCats]

270. Yeah I don't even know

what they were trying to do there. That is not anything I've seen before! I think instead of recording bigoted videos, they should really use their Internet to research, at least where their friend is from! Maybe they should spend a little more time on geography, and less on their religious seances and what not lol

I feel sorry for that girl but hopefully she can find less ignorant and judgemental people to hang around, who don't proclaim that she must be African because that's how she looks and she's going to hell because Hinduism is "wrong. Their parents must be so proud

[Spitfire of ATJ]

271. You aren't supposed to "think". Just close your eyes and "feel"...

Keep in mind that there are people like this behind the wheel in the next lane.

[Puzzledtraveller]

256. Dwell, no, obsess maybe?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

258. About what?

[LostOne4Ever]

118. I don't normally

I don't normally.

But then everyday that goes by I get a constant reminder of what this country thought about people like me back in the 1950's.

Penny for your thoughts.

[morningfog]

122. Because the goded force their archaic idiocy into policy.

[Mariana]

150. What they think and do affects people's lives for the worse.

Are you honestly saying you don't understand this? The infliction of creationism bullshit on children has already been addressed on this thread, but it doesn't stop there, does it? Homosexuals don't have equal rights because of what one side thinks and does. Bills are being introduced in state legislatures to restrict women's rights almost daily, and a good number of them have passed, because of what one side thinks and does. One side thwarts any efforts to reduce climate change and other environmental catastrophes, because they want the world to end. And the list goes on. The jackasses doing these things believe they're doing God's will, and you seriously think that "shouldn't matter a twit" to anyone else? Really?

[GeorgeGist]

156. When a pope goes to Africa ...

and tells them not to use condoms, that is despicable.

[silverweb]

11. So does everyone else.

Last edited Fri May 3, 2013, 05:23 PM - Edit history (1)

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]Show me ONE person who doesn't weigh, evaluate, and choose whether or not to abide by every "moral" rule mandated by a religion -- including the figureheads of said religions, who because of their self-designated authority, are the biggest hypocrites of all.

You don't have to be an "atheist" to pick and choose what moral values you abide by.

[Phillip McCleod]

80. and yet Buddhists are killing each other in Indonesia.. 1000s of years of Buddhist chinese emperors.

..and Buddhists fighting Muslims and Hindus wherever they coexist. But maybe these Asian Buddhists aren't *real* Buddhists? They need Hollywood to tell them how to do it right?

[defacto7]

108. You seem to repeat yourself

whenever Buddhism comes up. You also repeat that same talking point over and over, yet you choose to stick with the same tunnel vision though it's been rationally undone. Do you do it because you have a distaste for Buddhism or a distaste for anything not in your box? It's rather redundant. Someone says something positive about an idea, but it's not your idea so you trash it with an irrational point. Does it make you feel better? Exonerated? Fulfilled? Just what is in your box anyway?

[Phillip McCleod]

201. not at all. just taking to heart that no religion is immune from criticism..

..and pointing out that westerners .. particularly liberal westerners.. have an idealized view of buddhism that doesn't comport with its history as yet one more violent and oppressive religion.

[defacto7]

232. Understood and I agree... but

not every message is meant as an advertisement for religion and not every sentiment that comes from a religious source needs to carry the weight of all politically twisted actions. In the case of this post reply, you can remove Buddha, and the idea remains a reasonable ideal. It's about the ideal, and that is one of the few views from a religious source that makes any sense. Truth is truth no matter where you find it. I have almost as much distaste for vandalizing every idea that comes from religious sources simply to make a vague unrelated point, as I have distaste for religious zealots who do the same to logic and science.

[Phillip McCleod]

247. if these ideals have been vandalized it wasn't me..

..who played vandal. if an idea loses it's luster merely because it's attached to a religion.. what does that say?

[silverweb]

109. Off topic.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]Irrelevant to this thread.

[Phillip McCleod]

204. if my reply was off-topic, was the post i was replying to off-topic?

but now we're getting off-off-topic

[Rex]

12. What part of 'freewill' did he forget about that his God gave him?

Just done forgot about that kinda stuff eh?

[MindPilot]

14. As an Atheist I have no morals.

I do however have a very strong sense of ethics.

There is a difference between morals--the absolutes decreed by religious authorities--and ethics which are flexible enough to engender socially positive behaviors driving an evolution of progressive culture and society.

[Phillip McCleod]

85. in fact i agree that morals and ethics are distinct..

..but they aren't scientific terms.. unfortunately. I'd like to distinguish them depending on if we're talking about individuals or groups myself but until psychology &sociology overtake the mundane meanings we are stuck arguing a semantic point.

[Deep13]

15. Right. I choose the good morals. nt

[truebluegreen]

28. I choose good ethics.

p.s. if the basis of judging morals as good or not is religious, how do you pick the right one? Or are you judging on something else? Like "ethics" for instance.

[Deep13]

106. Mostly instinct.

But generally, hurts people = bad. Alleviates suffering or makes people happy = good.

[truebluegreen]

161. Fair enough...

but I'd call that ethics.

[No Vested Interest]

16. Context - What pope does this refer to?

Francis? Benedict XVI? Peter? Pius XII?
When?

[Phillip McCleod]

95. makes no difference..

..they are each commanding immoral and unethical behavior.

[brooklynite]

17. Can I get a ruling on Red Lobster's "Shrimp Fest"?

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. Well, if some of our religious folks were not selective

Non-kosher...

[Bluenorthwest]

49. As if.

nt

[Mariana]

74. Leviticus 11 says:

10) And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: 11) They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. 12) Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

It must be a very important rule, with all the repetition of the word "abomination" and all. Yet, I've NEVER heard any bigmouth fundie expound upon the sinfulness of eating catfish, hypocritical assholes that they are.

[RainDog]

92. and that's the same wording in Levit

that is applied to homosexuality between males (I don't think females get a mention, but they were less important than males in every aspect, so, who cared, amiright?)

I always wondered why incest wasn't codified as part of Christian doctrine since no one else was around, supposedly...and Cain and Abel had to have sex with someone to have descendants...and their mother was the only female noted.

Also, what about premature ejaculation? Is that a venal sin or a medical condition - or just an inability to think about baseball for a while? Onan needs clarification on this issue.

[Jamastiene]

147. Well, don't forget Lott and his daughters.

Sodom and Gomorrah...they say it means gay people are an abomination, but Lott and his daughters having sex? They never condemn that. Must be fine and dandy. Apparently, Lott was the righteous one in that story.

[RainDog]

149. a few gems

Any descendants of Aaron who have flat noses, or are blind or lame, cannot go to the altar of God ~Leviticus 21:17-18

Entrance into the assembly of the Lord was granted only to those with complete testicles ~Deuteronomy 23:1

(and, honestly, this one makes me wonder who checked this out - tho, in the past, a pope had to let someone confirm he had testicles... really. No shit.)

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives
~Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Lucky girl, huh?

[Phillip McCleod]

96. and you know what the 'good' book says about abominations!

.. stone em!

Good book my ass.

[alfredo]

127. That was a mistranslation by a dyslexic monk. It should read "get em stoned."

[Phillip McCleod]

208. hate it when that happens!

can you imagine how different history would be? sure we might still be in the *stone* age but i bet we would make no more war, either.

[alfredo]

222. The translators thought one text said the Red Sea, but it

Was later found it said The Sea of Reeds", a marsh. A marsh will swallow up the Egyptian chariots.

Of course parting or passing through the reeds could be an euphemism for death.

[RainDog]

88. LOL

love it.

[LanternWaste]

21. ""Human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain wa

""Human beings, all over the earth, have this curious idea that they ought to behave in a certain way, and can't really get rid of it...."

[edhopper]

22. So he thinks it is preferable

for a man in a funny hat to choose your morals for you?

[A Simple Game]

32. Well at least his dress hides his ruby slippers. n/t

[CarrieLynne]

23. nice! :)

[backscatter712]

25. The funny thing is that religious people also pick & choose their morals.

They claim they don't, and accuse me of calling them "Cafeteria Christians", but they do.

For the homosexuality issue, for example, you can pick the usual obnoxious Bible verses in Leviticus and Romans, or you can pick the "Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you" verses, or even go into 1st & 2nd Samuel, and interpret the "platonic" friendship between David and Jonathan as a great romance and a positive example of a gay relationship.

The Bible's really a big literary Rorschach test. What do you see in the blob of verses?

Everyone picks & chooses their morals. Atheists are simply honest about it.

[jeff47]

38. Don't even have to go into different books.

There's plenty in Leviticus they don't follow, despite being just as much of an abomination.

Wanna claim Leviticus says you should hate gays? Then you better be keeping kosher.

[smirkymonkey]

272. Thank YOU!

So True. What hypocrites.

[Squinch]

26. Who on earth doesn't pick and choose their morals? What an imbecilic statement.

[Phillip McCleod]

99. most of the.world would disagree.

Most.of the world believes morals are ordained. Like the pope .. Franny too.

[Squinch]

102. But Catholics are big on free will and choosing the right path. So though they think

certain morals are the correct ones, they understand that people can and often do choose other than the morals they have designated as being "correct."

[Phillip McCleod]

105. correction.. *some* catholics..

..maybe the ones you know. But in general catholics agree with the pope's *conservative * stance on women, gay and atheist rights.. or at other points of history on other human rights issues. The RCC is a conservative organization and liberal believers are *dreaming* if they think they can change it. Better luck changing the GOP.

[Squinch]

107. No. I'm talking about Catholic dogma. It's kind of in the rules.

Yes. I understand that the moral choices they make are not the ones you or I would make. And I understand that the church itself is not going to change. But the believers are aware that they are choosing those morals. They are choosing to follow the pope's conservatism. And that understanding of their choice is a dogmatic thing.

(Lots of years of Catholic school. I know this.)

[elleng]

27. EVERYONE does!

SILLY!

[Arugula Latte]

30. Yes, it's important to pick good morels and not get poisonous mushrooms.

Also, the Pope can take a flying leap onto a sharp church spire.

[Warren DeMontague]

33. Are you kidding? "Revelations" is nothing if not someone's extremely negative

psiloycbin experience.

[Phillip McCleod]

101. not psilocybin .. that's the golden calf.. poop storm phallus.

The fly agaric.. according to dead sea scrolls linguist j. Allegro.

Think smurf houses.

[smallcat88]

46. thank you for a funny one with a perfect ending

HEAR! HEAR!

[Bucky]

34. Moral relativism=morality based on who gets hurt. Moral absolutism=morality based on the Cloud Guy

Did I get that about right?

[amuse bouche]

36. I follow that guy on twitter

Love..love...love him

No doubt religion was invented to control the masses and a convenient place for bigots to rationalize their hatred for others

When will people let go of the nonsense?

[Skittles]

37. PREACH IT!!!!

I am FED UP with hearing you need religion to have morals - I DO NOT CARE FOR THE "MORALS" OF RELIGION!!!

[Fuddnik]

41. Pope joke.

The new Pope is a Jesuit, and many wonder why he took the name Francis instead of the name of his order's founder, Ignatius.

Obviously he didn't want to be known as Iggy Pope.

[KentuckyWoman]

126. I just laughed so hard I startled my husband.

THANK YOU.

I'm going to be stealing that on Monday at work.

and BTW - your moniker is fun too.

[tomp]

172. my joke:

after pope john paul, i was hoping for pope george ringo

[Cha]

42. Excellent.. the Pope walked right into that one.

thanks Will

[smallcat88]

44. and the Vatican doesn't?!

Catholics believe the Pope is infallible and that he speaks for god. Someone tell me where in the bible they read that. Oh, that's right, it's not in the bible! They just made that shit up! In fact, they make up crap all the time, whatever they decide they would like the masses to believe. That's what organized religion is for, CONTROL. Atheists, and anyone else who threatens that control is an automatic target. Why? Because they think for themselves and that's dangerous to organized religion. Guy's got a lot of nerve considering he represents the biggest group of pedophile enablers in history.

[lindysalsagal]

144. What smallcat said.

With the wagging finger thingy.

[forestpath]

48. K&R

[gollygee]

50. Hmmm ok I guess

Really everyone picks their morals. Being told to do something in a book doesn't mean you do it. And the Bible says to do some pretty horrible things as well as good things.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

52. Sacre bleu!

Why around here, on DU, lots of Christians will tell you that everything in the bible is sweetness and light, and if you point out what Jesus said that was cruel, then they will do backflips and tell you that you are "misinterpreting" the scriptures and taking them out of context. It's pretty plain what some of the cruelty is about, but they refuse to see it.



Illustration of backflip on ice, by the amazing Scott Hamilton :

[John2]

187. Can you cite

some of the cruelties attributed to Jesus, because I don't know any? Has Jesus ever ordered the persecution or death of anybody? That seems to conflict with his preventing a woman people saw as loose from being stoned. I don't know of any situation where he advocated violence either.

Now there is the question about his very existence but I find things attributed to him very enlightening. I see no flaws in what he taught, as far as reasoning or logic. I seem to agree with his teachings. He seem like a person unlike any I've studied in History. This is what has led me to believe in a higher being whatever form that may take. It doesn't necessarily have to be in the flesh.

What I'm not a true believer in is religion but it does not make me an atheist. You can believe in a Higher Being without following a religion. The question about right and wrong is interesting. I think God has given human beings the ability to decide what is right and wrong through their own conscious. Why do you need another human being to tell you? If God is every where and sees everything, than why does God need a mediator, when God can speak through those means? I don't think any human being is without sin, or they would be like God. I think you have to live your life as best you can while on Earth. I've come to this conclusion on my own and do not need anybodyelse's counsel except God.

I've read the Ten Commandments and believe they are also wise. When I read the Christian Bible or Jewish Bible, they seem to be accounts of what people did before us, and lessons what future human beings should avoid. I have not read the Koran. Some of those sayings were Thou should not Kill, commit Adultery and honor your mother and father.

I've also looked at Evolution and it makes sense. How can I believe in Evolution and God at the same time? In a sense, Evolution and Creation are the same. They both explain what is and how we got here. They both point to an end for life on Earth. Whatever happens after that I have no clue. The only one has a clue is what put us here. And I think man is still searching for the answers.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

230. uh huh. Jesus never advocated cruelty or violence. Please read the following verses.

I assume you're using the King James version???

Since you don't want paraphrases:

MATTHEW
3: 7,
3: 10-12;
5:17;
5:29-30;
7:13-14;
7:19;
8:12;
8:21;
8:32;
10:5-6;
10:14-15;
10:21,
10:28;
10:33,
10:34-36;
11:20-24;
12:30;
12:31-32;
12:34,
13:41-42;
13:50 ;
15:4-7;
15:13;
15:22-26;
16:3-4;
21:33-41;
21:44,
22:1-14;
23:31;
23:35;
24:3-51;
24:37;
24:50-51;
25:30;
25:31-46;
25:41;
27:25;

MARK
3:29;
4:11-12;
5:12-13;
6:11;
7: 9-10;
7:27;
8:38;
9:43-49;
12:1-9;
14:22-24;
16:16;

LUKE
1:20;
3: 9;
3:17;
8:27-37;
10:10-15;
10:16;
11:23;
12:5;
12:10;
12:46-47;
13:3,5;
13:23-30;
16:19-31;
17:29-32;
19:12-27
17:26-27,
17:29-32;
19:22-27;
22:19-20;

JOHN
3:14
3:16
3:18, 36
3:36
5:14
5:16-18;
6:53-56;
7:1,
7:13,
8:24,
8:44,
10:31,
11:8,
12:48,
14:6,
14:21,
15:6,
15:22,
17: 9,
19: 7,12,14-15
19:38,
20:19

---------------------------

[madrchsod]

53. everyone chooses their morals

the pope has his views on morals,you have yours, and i have mine.

[leftyladyfrommo]

114. I agree with you.

Even very religious people choose their morals.

CS Lewis made the most interesting statement. He said that all cultures have a moral code and that everyone in that culture knows what it is. We just don't follow it a lot of the time.

If you ask someone who mugged someone if what they did was right or wrong they will tell that it was wrong. Or that it was wrong to hurt someone. Or it was wrong to rob a store. Or it was wrong to lie or steal. People do know the moral code for their society. We all know what is considered right or wrong by our culture. We just don't always follow it.

[Sheepshank]

54. The way I see it...athiests are less prone to hypocrisy

their values and moral compass are not imposed upon them by some faceless diety. They have an internal conviction and a moral stand and that has a greater likleyhood of being consistent in numerous situations...especially anonymous situations.

[agracie]

64. Very interesting observation...

[Phillip McCleod]

210. true. we don't have to pick and choose from a book..

..or rationalize the 'bad' passages away.

[Initech]

55. I refuse to support the thinking of archaic, ancient institutions who don't change with the times.

[Make7]

56. People are supposed to let the Roman Catholic Church choose their morals...

... for them. Because the Church has such a stellar track record.

[libodem]

57. I'm having an oddly emotional day

I think this is going to touch me where I live and mist me up, again. That is beautiful.

[obxhead]

58. I will also choose not to

rape, murder, or pillage. I might envy, but doing so will only force me to do better with my own life.

[NCarolinawoman]

61. Which Pope?

Is there a link? I googled and found this statement going back to January 2013, and then back to 2010. Sounds sort of like Benedict.

What's the source?

[No Vested Interest]

77. I also located sources from Sept. 2010

relating to Benedict XVI.
Wonder what made it relevant today?

[NCarolinawoman]

133. Apparently, many people here don't care which pope said this;

although I think the distinction DOES matter.

[Bluenorthwest]

139. Francis said gay people are an attack on God. How's that?

This was when he was still an understudy, before he was playing the Pope. A Pope by any other name would smell as bigoted.

[jmowreader]

62. Christian morality is highly suspect

The Ten Commandments say, you will not kill. But Leviticus 20 is a very long list of reasons to kill. It's a very selective book.

My very favorite is the part where the fundies say drinking alcohol is a sin, even though there are many references to drinking in a non-sinful manner in the Bible. Personal opinion: the booze prohibition is like the shellfish and pork prohibitions. Thousands of years ago they didn't know what trichinosis was but knew if you ate raw pigs and bears you came down with it, and they didn't know what paralytic shellfish poisoning was but you got very sick if you ate shellfish. The goal was to stop people from eating these things, but since lots of people ate them without incident a new approach was needed: god will strike you dead if you disobey him, and he says quit eating oysters.

As for booze, its less savory qualities are clearly seen: it causes household violence and hunger when pa turns all the grain for this winter's bread into whisky then punches ma in the mouth when she complains.(Which folds back into the issue of lack of entertainment...) Since most people couldn't read then, the preacher could tell his flock god would strike them dead if they drank, and drinking would fall off.

[hrmjustin]

136. Here.

The Jews don't recognize Jesus as the Messiah.
The protestants don't recognize the pope as the head of the church.
And the baptists don't recognize each other in the liquor store.

[roamer65]

66. U bet we do.

I choose to have no part of their hypocritical jerkoff religion.

[penndragon69]

71. Christian Morals????

I guess that it's ok to look through a book of short stories and then pick and choose
the morals you want to use today.

Time to put this book in the " FICTION "
category and embrace Logic and Reason as your guiding principals
for your life, not mythic stories told to the un-educated, just to make money.

[1ProudAtheist]

75. It Is No Wonder

That a pointy-headed child molester wears a pointy hat. Tell the shit-for-brains reprobate that at least we Atheists have MORALS.

[DesertFlower]

82. didn't one of the other popes criticize

catholics for that. they were called "cafeteria style catholics" because they would pick and chose the rules they wanted to follow.

[Bake]

83. Good thing we're not talkin' about them Muslims or the Koran ...

Since we're making so many broadbrush statements, ya know. Wouldn't want to do that about anybody else ...

Bake

[Spitfire of ATJ]

90. Oh sure,...because tossing Christians to the lions is fun.

[Mariana]

143. You're talking about the pope, right?

The pope does seem to be rather comfortable making broadbrush statements about atheists.

[rug]

87. Got a link to that papal quote?

[Warren Stupidity]

103. No, but this actual quote is an appalling ironic gem:

Even in our own lifetime, we can recall how Britain and her leaders stood against a Nazi tyranny that wished to eradicate God from society and denied our common humanity to many, especially the Jews, who were thought unfit to live. I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny".

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2010/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100916_incontro-autorita_en.html

[rug]

104. Close but no cigar.

Although, "a truncated vision of man and of society" has a ring to it.

[RainDog]

148. Ratzinger was saying atheism = nazi

Ratzinger and the current Pope have both gone on record, and in action, opposed to liberation theology because of its relationship with Marxism.

The church has defended fascists around the world, including during WWII. Their actions after the war are especially heinous. What a fucking joke for Ratzinger to talk about atheism as the reason for fascism when the fucking church spent centuries persecuting Jews and teaching this same thing to everyone in western Europe. What a fucking joke that this asshole would dare to state that atheism created this tradition of anti-semitism and violence against Jews.

Jews were instrumental in the move toward atheism in the west. But beyond that, Ratzinger is attacking the Enlightenment, because that was the origin of western atheism. In that case, he shares his pov with Scalia, who laments "post-Christian Europe" while arguing that Paul, and Christianity, create the moral basis for capital punishment in a "let god sort them out" claim.

A fellow bishop, the one who held office before Bergoglio in Argentina, assisted in torture and murder of dissidents after Argentina's military coup - and was given communion.

...While this same church announces Kerry should not receive communion, nor should family members with gay children who don't agree that those children should be treated like sub-humans.

So, honestly - to the Pope, I say, "Fuck your morals."

The church doesn't support liberal or Democratic ideals. The church ACTIVELY works to deny rights to women and homosexuals.

It STUNS me to know that people who claim to be liberals justify what goes on "in god's name."

[rug]

171. Why that's as bad as saying Ratzinger = Nazi.

[RainDog]

173. The irony, I suppose, is a member of Hitler Youth

making a statement trying to deflect blame from the church's long, long history of anti-semitism onto those who actually defeated the Nazis.

The point is that he's a liar, who is using a scapegoat to deny the church's complicity in oppression - the same sort of thing the church does now with homosexuals - who, oh yeah, were also targets of the Nazis.

But, but, he didn't want to be in the Hitler Youth! - Even tho his current organization still aligns with fascists as matters of policy and in opposition to liberation theology among the proles in the church.

And still attempts to treat homosexuals as second-class citizens.

[rug]

174. The irony is calling a 14 year old drafted into the Hitler Youth as Germny collapsed a nazi.

Although there are better words for that tactic.

[RainDog]

176. Irony is a Democrat defending homophobia and sexism

by defending one of the most vociferous opponents of equal rights for both.

[rug]

177. Really? Pray tell, who is doing that?

The only irony I see is a baseless accusation from someone wrapped in the cloak of justice.

It's also tedious and predictable.

[RainDog]

180. Don't read it, then

because BY ALL MEANS, your comfort is more important than rights for others.

[rug]

181. Bravo, now you're wrapping your personal hostility in the flag of equality.

I can't wait for the next ratchet.

[RainDog]

182. keep waiting, then n/t

[RainDog]

193. for the record

for some of us, we don't separate our personal lives from the actions of others that are done to harm our fellow human beings. maybe you have some "higher thinking" that allows you to compartmentalize and agree to align with an institution that has worked in political ways to undermine equal rights in the U.S.

as you demonstrate, your only argument to defend your own cognitive dissonance is to attack me for pointing out the lies and lack of concern your religion has for human rights for those they deem lesser.

so, you know, it's sort of like you're attacking me to justify your own support for an institution that does this.

unless you are trying to pretend this is an attack on you. in which case I would point out that I was the one who discovered and posted that some person, I don't remember the person's name, now ppr'd, changed photos to make it appear you were posting a photo of one thing, rather than another.

because, see, my pov is that that was unethical, and even tho that person may have id'ed as an atheist, I didn't try to cover up for that person's misdeeds because I disagree with you about the value of the Catholic church.

ironic, huh?

[muriel_volestrangler]

153. That almost certainly was the speech that was being responding to

That was Benedict's speech in Scotland on the evening of the 16th Sept 2010, on his British visit; the tweet came a few hours later (with 2 of the 3 points): https://twitter.com/A_McLordy/status/24739701949

Within 12 hours, the BBC noted it was getting retweeted a lot in its coverage of the pope's visit: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/9011275.stm

[HockeyMom]

91. Dear Pope,

Pick and choose. Yes, as a FORMER Catholic and 12 years of Catholic schools, I found your teaching totally insane when I was about 15.

Birth control. My 11 year old friend, who was raped on the way home from Catholic School in her uniform, should not have been given the now called Morning After Pill to not CONCEIVE a rapist baby? She told me year later, she would have jumped out her 14th floor apartment, if her parents (who didn't agree with your teaching) forced her to have a rapist baby at 11 years old.

Divorce. My Aunt divorced her husband of 6 months because he beat her, was an alcoholic, adulterer, and did notpay the bills or put food on the table. She was 22 at the time in the 1950s. Because she divorced him and remarried, she was an adulteress, my cousin a BASTARD, and was going to BURN IN HELL. BTW, my Aunt and UNCLE were "living in SIN" for over 50 years and he died not long after her from a BROKEN HEART. He gave up living because he couldn't live without his "Sweet Baby". SINNERS!!!!

Abortion. Didn't think much about that as a young woman until I had an ectopic pregnancy and the misfortune to be brought to a Catholic Hospital. "We don't do abortions I was told". So my LIFE didn't matter? My already born 3 year should be denied a mother? My husband denied a wife? My yet to be born younger daughter denied HER LIFE because I couldn't give conceive or give birth to her because I would have been DEAD!!!! For what? A baby because of GOD's PLAN to KILL the unborn in a fallopian tube????

Go away, Pope. I am no longer a Catholic. Neither of my children are, including the one who wouldn't even be here because of YOUR TEACHINGS.

[SunSeeker]

111. Thanks for your powerful post. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

93. So what's his problem?

So very grateful that I was NOT raised with religion!

[rurallib]

100. I have always thought most of our "morality" was inborn

don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, don't hate

The other crap is stuff we learn, you know like hating someone's skin color or sexuality.

[Niceguy1]

110. or their

Religious beliefs.

[RainDog]

112. Studies have indicated that very small children have a concept of fairness

Beyond the legalisms and minutiae of religions, the reality is that humans and other primates - and other mammals, even, have a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" aspect to their minds.

Since we evolved in communities of dozens of other humans, those who had this pov would be more likely to survive b/c those who did not live in this way could and would be ostracized and would die from the lack of a community.

We have evolved beliefs in the value of equal pay, etc.

[Scootaloo]

151. Ethics seems to be somewhat inhernet

Morals on the other hand, are learned behaviors that seem to primarily exist as exceptions to ethical behavior.

[Dawson Leery]

113. Those are the words of Pope Child Molester Protector Ratzinger.

[NCarolinawoman]

124. Yes, RATZINGER's words, apparently.

Not Pope Francis.

[burnodo]

119. K&R

If this is true, how do Christians explain their picking and choosing?

[Walk away]

120. Now that the Catholics have their "beard", the pretend Pope Francis....

They can trot him out in public riding a bicycle and washing feet while the rest of the immoral old monsters like Ratzenberger, his boyfriend and their red robed, bejeweled Cardinals practice morality as usual. Raping children, promoting AIDS and withholding contraception from the poor.
Catholics all over the world send them the money to pull this off in style.

I'll take the morals of decent, intelligent people who act right because they believe it is right. Being a sheep is pathetic.

[NCarolinawoman]

128. Ratzinger said this, from what I can tell.

Needs to be a link.

[Walk away]

132. I'm not surprised. I doubt that they will ever allow Saint Francis go...

off script.

[tpsbmam]

125. Best way for me as an agnostic/atheist is for people to simply get to know me.....

(I describe myself as both because I'm really twixt and tween the two....I have zero belief in a "higher being" but I'm not about to tell a believer he or she is "wrong" and attribute any of the derogatory qualities I often hear atheists ascribe to believers. Truth is, I think they're wrong but I can't prove the lack of a higher being any more than they can prove the existence of a higher being.)

Those people I know who are strongly tied to their religions know me and know that I have strong ethical and moral codes & beliefs and live my life accordingly. I've been able to educate just by the way I live my life and the way I treat my religious friends. I moved to a southern state (NC) about 8 years ago and have some deeply religious friends of the Southern Baptist variety. I'm the first atheist/agnostic some have gotten to know -- I think (hope) I've been a good exemplar of someone who treats their beliefs with respect and has a strong ethical code without believing in God or Jesus or sharing any of those beliefs with them.

I know a couple of them were struck early on when I ended up on a group email making fun of pictures of obese women wearing bikinis. I was saddened by all of these women laughing at other women who were comfortable enough with their bodies to wear bikinis. I simply emailed my reaction saying pretty much that and simply saying that I applaud the women's apparent comfort with their bodies, which I thought made them beautiful. All of the other email recipients were members of my friend's church and a couple of them took what I had to say very positively and learned from that email, including acknowledging that I was the one on the email loop that wasn't religious and was the one who kindly and, without judging them or putting them down, showed the believers how to behave as Jesus would behave (one of them actually said that to me). I know for those two people that getting to know this atheist/agnostic has been a positive experience and one that has shown them that having a strong ethical & moral code doesn't have to come from religious beliefs and teachings.

[LiberalElite]

129. This may be a good time for an oldie but goodie - The Letter to Dr. Laura:

http://www.humanistsofutah.org/2002/WhyCantIOwnACanadian_10-02.html

-------------snip----------
Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1 . The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21 . In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

---------end snip------------

[pokerfan]

137. The 613 commandments

The following are the 613 commandments and the source of their derivation from the Hebrew Bible as enumerated by Maimonides:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments#Maimonides.27_list

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Yeah, whatever.

Coming from the Vatican, that font of Moral Authority.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

154. Pope told me: Jesus ordered me to hate you! I will do it! I hate you! I hate you!`

Love thy neighbor, glass houses and suffer the little children. . .fuck that noise! I HATE EVERYONE WHO HATES MY VIEW OF JESUS!!!

[jopacaco]

163. I choose to have nothing to do with the pope

I had 16 years of Catholic education. It was an excellent education. I learned almost nothing of the old testament in all those religion classes, I learned the teachings of Jesus. I learned morality and ethics. I have kept those but lost the church. That finally happened when my husband and I moved to a new area and (to please our parents), I called the local church and asked to have my newborn son baptised. I was told that after we donated $200 to the church (our son is now 34), I could get him baptised. That is when I realized it was all about the money not my son's immortal soul. My sister-in-law (who got her marriage which produced 2 children annulled by greasing enough palms between here and Rome) arranged for my son to be baptised in her church. We couldn't baptize him with the name we had given him. It wasn't a saint's name.
I am glad for my Catholic education. I learned to treat others as I want to be treated. I learned empathy and compassion. It is a shame that the church has lost track of its own teachings.

[99Forever]

165. I don't give a rat's ass...

.. about what the pope or any other self-proclaimed gawdly press secretary says about anything, least of all "morals." These are the some of last people on this planet that should be running their pieholes about anyone.

Hypocrites, one and all.

[harmonicon]

169. Everyone, religious and atheist alike, can choose to use the Oxford comma. (nt)

[caseymoz]

184. So do Christians

Only they don't admit it, and think not having to admit it is a sign of superiority, their inborn "moral compass."

[hrmjustin]

227. Not all of us!

[caseymoz]

231. Yes, all of you.

If you choose to follow Christian morality, the choice is yours, and the choice of where and when you disregard it or reinterpret it is also yours. The God belief is used to avoid responsibility for it. That is among several other ways it's used.

[hrmjustin]

238. Not all Christians believe the same thing.

[caseymoz]

246. And you're missing my point.

I'm not talking about their creed. I'm talking about the mental process. What they think they're doing and what they're actually doing are two different things, IMHO.

[hrmjustin]

249. That is not true for all Christians.

Some practice what they preach. I am not saying I am a great Christian because I am not, but I do try to follow what Jesus said.

[OnionPatch]

185. That's right, Pope.

I choose my own morals and beliefs by using the brain I was blessed with at birth, which was designed to evaluate information very effectively. I choose to use this gift. Adopting someone else's pre-held doctrine seems kind of like the lazy way out if you ask me.

[Zen Democrat]

190. Even Popes pick their own morals. Jeez.

[RainDog]

194. welcome, troll

You don't know much of anything about anything, obviously.

You don't understand rational thought and the philosophy that led to a rejection of revealed religion by many.

fyi - science doesn't try to prove god does not exist. science indicates that the proofs religions have given are lies.

so, it comes down to the point, that Kierkegaard so eloquently made (he was a Christian, btw) that faith is insanity or unreason, by looking at the story of faith in the story of Abraham.

since humans seek to provide explanations for the world, god has always been the "god in the gaps" for societies. Now that the gaps are smaller, god is too.

[RainDog]

209. No, Kierkegaard makes that claim

You should read what he has to say about the substance of faith.

But, yes, I agree that if people are taught lies, such as those taught by religious fundamentalists, they will grow up believing those lies and reality will not matter to them because those lies instill fear as well as belief.

When reason is applied to matters of faith, reason wins. That's why Kierkegaard had to admit faith is "unreason."

Anyone who claims the earth is 6000 years old, for instance, isn't insane. That person is ignorant. If that person cannot accept that, say, the earth revolves around the sun, rather than vice versa, that person is ignorant, unless that person continues to hold that belief despite the FACT that this is incorrect - then, yeah, I would say we're getting into a little bit of mental illness.

[RainDog]

214. okaaaaay

yes, religion, for a time, and may again, gain power ove reason.

the result, when this happened, was a thousand years of ignorance in the west and a deterioration of society.

if that's what you want, you do not share my values.

Christianity tried to censor reason but, ultimately, their own belief indicated the falsity of their claims.

If someone wants to bring a veil of ignorance over American society, they will find they will lose because people no longer want to be governed by irrational, sexist, homophobic, intolerant religion.

The world is a better place because religion no longer controls everyone. It still controls some, tho, as you demonstrate.

I wish the best for you. I hope you are able to overcome the lies you have been told.

[Warren DeMontague]

223. So you don't support a woman's right to choose, then?

[RainDog]

242. try of to do other things

and entire trolldom's disappear while you're gone...

I think I'm not sorry I missed all the rebuttals.

[Warren DeMontague]

244. Apprarently MIRT took notice of him

[Warren DeMontague]

226. So when Greeks believed in Poseidon, or Celts believed in the mother goddess, or Rainforest Tribes

believe in forest spirits, they're all really believing in Jesus, they just don't know it?

Because making broad based claims that "98% of people throughout history have believed in God", that's what you're claiming.

Never mind the fact that even the Monotheists can't agree on what, exactly, they're talking about. A more accurate description would be that "98% of people throughout history have believed in some form of invisible shit that can't be proven". That doesn't mean they're right, of course, but it's a more accurate statement.

[John2]

216. Oh really now,

if "I Am that I Am", is truly "I Am that I Am." If that is true, then there can really be no existence or anything exists larger than "I Am that I Am." Existence itself depends on "I Am that I Am."

[uppityperson]

196. Not believing in God is due to indoctrination while believing is "philosofical thought"?

[Fumesucker]

207. "The try of science to prove"?

The try of English to speak.

[Warren DeMontague]

224. there is no try

only doo-doo.

[santamargarita]

195. We could start with the Spanish Inquisition; hiding

Nazi Collaborators down to covering up for pedophiles. Pick something you like and we'll discuss morals.

[TeamPooka]

217. Just Like the way you just took "an event" and used it to make your claim without facts?

talk about selective

[santamargarita]

228. I'm not sure where your coming from?

Welcome to DU.

[marble falls]

198. And Christians pick and choose, too. There are homophobic, anti-abortion ...

anti- feminist atheists, and pro- abortion, pro- women's rights and pro- gay Christians, too.

[markiv]

203. sounds like they'd make good Bishops nt

[gejohnston]

219. and so does everyone else

what's his point?

[Maineman]

220. Religions do not have morals, they have religious rules and dogma they call morals.

[Buzz Clik]

235. +1