Egyptian TV Host Riham Said REMOVES VEIL During Interview, CLASHES With Guest Cleric Yousuf Badri

[Segami]

Excerpt:


"…..I would have accepted it if it was in order to make me please Allah,….But, off-the-air, YOU have NO problem talking to me without the Hijab……..and then, when the viewers can see, YOU make me wear it?!..."




"….I feel like I am playacting when I put this scarf on. - Let's start the show.



"….Change the subject, and put on that Hijab!……….I'm not going to put it on. I will wear it for God, not for you…."

.

[backscatter712]

1. How long until the "feminists" demand we stop being Western Imperialists for cheering this woman!

B-b-but hijabs are part of their culture! We must be hands-off when Muslims act like sexist doucheclowns because forcing women to wear sacks over their head liberates them!!!

Because we condemn the forced wearing of the hijab, that means we HATE ALL MUSLIMS!!!

[bettyellen]

4. link?

[backscatter712]

7. Used to be here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022772227

A certain poster self-deleted her most entertaining posts though.

[bettyellen]

9. oh, so you were airing personal issues with something ONE DUer might have said, thanks!

It seemed as if you were trying to misrepresent the thoughts of many feminist here. Glad you cleared that up.

[backscatter712]

12. Here's another one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2767354

I have no problem with feminists. Just a small number of idiots that call themselves "feminist" while condemning a woman standing up for her rights.

[bettyellen]

13. a small number -like one? that is the same DUer. And that is a well written, very reasonable post.

Great info, and important issues raised. We like those kind of posts here.
So, what DO you plan to do about 2 billion people who practice Islam- insult them as you did this DUer?
How's that working out for you?

[backscatter712]

15. I insult Islam because Islam insults women. I make no apologies.

And I treat Islam no differently from Christianity, which I also insult because it insults women, among other things.

I am an athest. That means that I do not believe that religion gets immunity from criticism and ridicule when it becomes non-sensical or harmful. When Christian or Muslim religious people start behaving like misogynists, my inner asshole comes out to play!

And that poster insulted me by screaming that I was a bigot. Sorry, but claiming that I moonlight in white sheets isn't the way to make friends.

[bettyellen]

21. Insulting fellow DUers, smearing feminists here with this bullshit that is actually a grudge against

ONE DUer, and thinking you can change the hearts and minds of billions of people by insulting them.
Interesting approach, let us know exactly how that works out helping women who are live in Islamic communities.

[backscatter712]

24. Whatever.

[bettyellen]

28. just sorting out the nonsense that this is any more than some fight with one DUer you got going on

As well as the very juvenile notion that you can impact Islamic by hurling insults and offending them.
When that approach starts working, you let us all know, okay?

[BuddhaGirl]

46. +1

Insulting does not win people over. And some complain that religious people are intolerant...

[bettyellen]

55. It is precisely this immature and bombastic approach that makes people take issue with...

nothing to do with boobs. Everything to do with throwing gas on a fire and calling the media instead of doing good work in the community. There are loads of Islamic feminists committed to improving their communities because they know there are wonderful people there, who's hearts and minds can be won. Such a shame they should be discounted because they are believers.

[backscatter712]

57. What do you do when you see injustice? Confront it.

What did Amina do when she was confronted by her beautiful culture's repression? Oh, she insulted those Islams alright, by refusing to go around with a sack over her head, and instead taking her top off to demand freedom.

And what did FEMEN activists do? Oh, they insulted a whole bunch of misogynist fuckstains all over the world by taking off their tops and saying "FUCK YOUR MORALS!" on their bodies.

When a repressive structure won't listen to you at all when you're trying to be nice, it's time to stop being nice.

This approach worked for the LGBT community - they threw a fucking RIOT at Stonewall. Punched cops in the face. Where would they be today if they decided to only be nice. They'd still be in the closet. It worked for the black community, which refused to go to the back of the bus, marched in the middle of the street rather than the sidewalks, committed acts of trespassing when they sat down in restaurants and public places and refused to leave when the owners told them to get out.

Oh, wait, you're against civil disobedience and direct action - why those activities are rude and insulting!

Sometimes you've got to be fucking rude..

[bettyellen]

61. civil disobedience is great, saying you totally disrespect entire populations of humanity- that you

are hoping will change for the better? That is dumb as fuck. It will get you nothing aside from press clippings. Femen proves this daily.

Sorry, flashing your tits and yelling fuck you, has no parallel to American civil rights struggles. It will take allies within the larger community to foster change- and yelling fuck you at them isn't helping anyone.

[backscatter712]

62. Keep putting words in my mouth.

Lying about my positions really makes you look like the bigger person.

[ZombieHorde]

63. Why did you put feminists in quotes? nt

[backscatter712]

64. Because they demanded that FEMEN and Amina stop protesting in the way they felt was right.

Talk about people saying there's a "right way and a wrong way to be feminist"...

[ZombieHorde]

66. So, I'm not misrepresenting your position.

You believe they're "feminists," as opposed to feminists. You don't think they're real feminists.

[backscatter712]

67. When they're telling a woman protesting for her rights to sit down and shut up, that's misogyny.

They were the ones questioning Amina's legitimacy to make such a protest, accusing her of faking her accusations against her abusive family, trying to discredit everything she said. Putting down and attacking a woman like that ain't feminism.

I stand my my statement.

[bettyellen]

72. talk about whether methods of protests are wise and useful happens all the fucking time among

activists. That some here are *shocked I tells you* that all feminist women here do not think alike, or agree that it was helpful is hilarious. Such a naive attitude.
Tells us exactly how much of an activist they have been if they think that's how it works. "Feminist" my ass.

And the bullshit that anyone is telling anyone to sit down and shut up, oh please. Spare us this nonsense. Totally misrepresents those who are not impressed with Femen's self promotion and anti-Muslim approach.

[redqueen]

82. Well said!

It's more like they're telling feminists who disagree with FEMEN's tactics to sit down and shut up! (In addition to the "feminists" bullshit.)

[bettyellen]

90. the whole Femen thing was manufactured as an excuse for some guys here to administer a feminist

purity test. It would have helped them a great deal if they had any knowledge or history with ANY activism though.
It's painfully obvious who has never been there, or done that- isn't it? Yet they are handing out scare quotes. Funny!

[idwiyo]

94. You are right, it was manufactured by few self-proclaimed "feminists" here to dictate what

Last edited Sat May 4, 2013, 04:50 PM - Edit history (1)

is and isn't "legitimate" protest and who can and can not engage in it.

That and "them pig-man want to look at TITTIES"!!!!!,,11,,,!!!

[Scootaloo]

133. "That and "them pig-man want to look at TITTIES"!!!!!,,11,,,!!!"

Can't say I saw very many of you guys giving a flying shit about the status of Muslim women before there were breasts to look at.
During the period they were there, I didn't see any of you valuing the perspectives of anyone who was wearing a shirt.
Don't see many of you continuing the topic now that the breasts have vanished from the headlines.

I'm sure you've just been silenced by hte brutality of the *ahem* "feminists."

[idwiyo]

164. YAY!!! Another person who think they have telepathic powers! How come you didn't notice some of them

guys are actually gals? Or that there are a lot of gals who LOVE boobies, don't have problem with nudity and definitely don't give a fig about your morals?

Judging how spectacularly you failed at detecting the above, what does it say about rest of your deductive powers?

PS. If you (generic) don't know the gender of the poster you are talking to, its a good idea not to ASSume. Really. Makes you (generic) look very very foolish.

[stevenleser]

177. OMG, I didnt see that before now. So certain men on DU made up Femen and Amina?!?!? ROFLMAO!

Wow! These folks really do not listen to themselves.

[idwiyo]

112. Would be nice if you learnt the difference between anti-Muslim and anti-Islamist. That is if you

want to be taken seriously.

[bettyellen]

74. link to these "demands" please...

[bettyellen]

73. exactly, I love it when guys do that. LOL.

[LiberalLovinLug]

75. +100

Just because the Tea Bagger xenophobes hate all things Islam and thinks everyone wearing a turban is a terrorist, doesn't mean we have to take the opposite view and ignore the injustices of that medieval patriarchal belief system. These women are way behind western women in their fight for equality. They need our support.

[idwiyo]

107. And once again you misrepresent what was actually said. Poster did not say "all" DUers and they

did not say "all feminists". But you make it sound like they did. Very dishonest tactic.

[aquart]

105. Every patriarchal religion insults women. Confessed to a Catholic priestess lately?

[backscatter712]

106. Can't say that I have. You've got a good point there.

I wouldn't want to give the impression that Islam is the only religion I roundly criticize. It's got a loooot of company.

[HiPointDem]

129. you can't even *spell* atheist.

[ancianita]

135. The real test of sexism: what happens to a woman who 'chooses' not to adhere to a 'holy' dress code.

I'm with you backscatter. Men's drive to make women SUBMIT to them hides behind this religion bullshit.

[Apophis]

44. Yep.

That particular poster called me an Islamaphobe for pointing out all of the faults of the religion.

[Bluenorthwest]

65. Same poster told me I was a bigot if I could not see that the Catholic Chruch is a 'haven for gay

men and women' and that 'the vast majority of American priests live openly as gay men, accepted by the church'.
It is offensive material.

[backscatter712]

68. Yep. We both know how this poster operates. n/t

[HiPointDem]

128. there's a chain of deletions by two posters, fairly obviously they both chose to delete an exchange

that went over the top.

other than that, there are two deletions by two completely different people.

i think it's kind of dirty pool to claim something was said, but deleted. maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, but there's no proof that people can go to & check.

besides which, i thought it was a violation to bring disputes from other threads into new ones.

[Segami]

5. I applaud and support her calling out this cleric's hypocrisy & bullshit.

Last edited Sat May 4, 2013, 11:57 AM - Edit history (1)

Kudos for her courage and conviction. She understands this is all about control.

[Skidmore]

10. When we see a similar pushback against Christian ministers and priests here on women issues.

We rarely see a pointed exchange between women and clergy like this one in the use. We see discussions by proxy. Usually the title of a clergy is enough to invoke tones of deference.

This type of pushback and literal pulling back of the veil to reveal the hypocrisy of religions is essential to all cultures. Religion is about power and wealth and nothing more. I used to be married to a Muslim and lived in the ME for a period of time. The one thing the man said that made sense to me until this day is that priests make their livings from twisting words and they sell to the public whatever keeps them in business and are not to be trusted.

[ZombieHorde]

16. Takes a real man to tell women how to be real feminists, huh?

That cool, I understand, because I always have to tell Jews how to be proper Jews. So annoying when they don't think about their faith right.

Oh wait, that's completely asinine! What the fuck was I thinking?!

[backscatter712]

17. Some of us were encouraging Amina and FEMEN when they did their protests.

Oh yeah, I was!

[ZombieHorde]

20. If there is one thing Amina and FEMEN need, it's a man's approval for their way of thinking.

Women need to know the proper way to be feminists. By pointing out good examples and bad examples, women will eventually know how to live up to men's expectations of feminism.

Oh wait, that is also asinine. I'm not thinking very well today.

[backscatter712]

22. Who was telling them how they should and shouldn't protest?

Did I make any comments telling them they were doing it wrong?

[ZombieHorde]

33. "How long until the 'feminists' demand we..."

Putting the word feminists in quotes means they're not real feminists.

[backscatter712]

58. It wasn't the (non-scare-quoted) feminists that were demanding that Amina put her hijab back on.

It was the "feminists" that were telling FEMEN to sit down and shut up.

Centuries of people being nice didn't do a damned thing to improve women's rights in Muslim regions of the world.

It took Rosa Parks being rude and refusing to go to the back of the bus to kick the civil rights movement into high gear. It took GLBT people punching cops in the face and starting a riot at Stonewall to get people to start thinking about their rights. It took ACT UP getting in people's faces to get something done about HIV/AIDS when Reagan was perfectly comfortable with letting HIV victims die.

[bettyellen]

87. links to DUers telling Amina to sit down and shut up please.... and hopefully there will be text

this time.

[idwiyo]

95. Every single one of self-proclaimed "REAL" feminists who was up in arms because FEMEN protest

naked.

[bettyellen]

96. no links, because it's inflammatory bullshit designed to smear good DUErs.

you should be ashamed of spreading this crap. Seriously.

[idwiyo]

98. Yes, I am ashamed for you.

You are perfectly aware which OPs we are talking about. Stop pretending.


PS am not stupid enough to give you or one of your buddies (or their sock puppets) a chance to hide my post because I post a link to specific conversation.

[muriel_volestrangler]

114. You've seen it already

Oh-so concerned about the 'stability' of Tunisia before the elections:

Amina's stunt ought to really help with maintaining that stability, as well as the upcoming election.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2625387

[bettyellen]

139. saying you are "not shockingly grateful" does NOT equal "shut up and sit down"- not by ANY stretch..

I'm not shockingly grateful, I just doubt she took the best approach. Boo fucking hoooo.
Let's not pretend this is a free speech issue. That is bullshit.

[muriel_volestrangler]

144. calling it a 'stunt' and claiming to be concerned about it affecting Tunisian elections

DOES equal "shut up and sit down". And your head is in the sand if you genuinely believe otherwise.

[bettyellen]

146. I totally think it was a stunt, but I support her RIGHT to do it. See how that works?

even if I think it was ill-advised, of course I think she has a right. It's a foolish leap to imagine otherwise.
What is so damned hard to understand about that?

[muriel_volestrangler]

148. When did whether it's a 'right' come into this? This is about telling her

to 'sit down and shut up'. ie a DUer saying they know better than Amina what she should have done, and saying why she shouldn't have done it. Which is what redqueen did, and what you seem to be supporting.

[bettyellen]

150. having an opinion about it, is NOT the same as telling her to sit down and shut up at all.

If that were true, someone would actually SAY she should sit down and shut up. But they didn't.
Stop hurling the propaganda. It's embarrassing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

151. I can see you're embarrassed by DUers being the westerners telling Amina what she should do

to conform to your approved form of protest. When you and redqueen had been accusing other westerners of telling Muslim women what to do, you must be very embarrassed to be shown to be so hypocritical.

[bettyellen]

153. no, I think it's a great topic for debate. and that many here are full of shit portraying it as

any sort of attempt to stifle her or Femen. Totally full of shit.

[riderinthestorm]

152. I did an experiment with a thread, demonstrating how UNconcerned DUers really are

despite professing how much they are paying attention.

Amina's action brought the situation in Tunisia into the forefront of discussion (at least on DU but also helped along internationally by FEMEN).

Many DUers like to call it a "stunt" but most activists would love to have as much attention paid to their cause as Amina received.

Anyway, here's my thread demonstrating the REALITY of those who purport to be paying attention... 8 responses only. Nobody's really paying attention to this stuff until it conveniently ties into their personal agenda (like slamming FEMEN or topless protesting or whatever). I can count the number of posters on two hands, like yourself, in LBN who really ARE participating in-depth on discussions about the Arab Spring (cough) situations.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022637203

[bettyellen]

154. aww, a bit jealous your thread got so little attention? I've also heard women here were jealous of

the attention because they don't have nice tits, LOL. Seriously funny shit. I'm seeing a bit of projection here with this jealously angle. As if anything a woman thinks is based on some catty reaction. Look to yourself.

[riderinthestorm]

155. Jealous?! What a laugh. That thread demonstrated PRECISELY my point.

In fact, I would have been (delightfully) shocked if it received more than 10 responses. It performed exactly as I thought it would, and almost exactly as I predicted it would.

That the point of that thread completely escapes you says more about you than anything.

[bettyellen]

156. well jealousy about not getting attention was on your mind when posting about your sunken thread....

not getting attention.... gee- what a neat little coincidence!!

it happens, great threads sink, shitty ones get a lot of attention. you'd have to not have a life outside DU to feel a shred of responsibility about it. I know I don't.

[riderinthestorm]

168. I repeat, that thread did EXACTLY as I predicted.

So no jealousy at all.

In fact, I'm pretty glad that I have that thread to point to as a stellar example vividly demonstrating the duplicity on the part of many who suddenly purport to "care" about the rise of Islamism in these conflict areas and the treatment of women and minorities post Arab Spring.

And who suddenly believe they have the "feminist credibility" to tell the rest of us off, even though they haven't said ONE word before hand about the situations there for the past two years. Even more so, they presume to have the "feminist credibility" to tell protesters how to do it "right" now, without ever having weighed in before.

And who provide crystal clear examples of how nuance is lost on these discussion boards and the pack mentality (yes even on DU) prevents productive discussion.

[bettyellen]

170. you seriously think the number of replies your thread got says anything about anyone here?

and you think you know what people do or are concerned about based on some thread you created- as if we were all here just waiting for it, LOL. That's some pretty weird shit. Same as you thinking anyone gives a rats ass if you think they have some kind of cred with you. People here can and do feel comfortable expressing their opinions- and it doesn;t mean they are telling anyone else to sit down and shut up. Again, that is bullshit.

Maybe you are here 24/7 and watching every thread go by, thinking about judging other DUers based on whether they sink or fly.... but most of us have better things to do than be bitter and imagine the worst of others just because our thread sank. You might need to get out more!

[bettyellen]

25. well, approval and interest from men is paramount! if we don't please them by showing our tits then

we don't get the beads thrown at us. Oh wait, that's Mardi Gras.

[ZombieHorde]

35. Ha! nt

[backscatter712]

59. Please keep putting words in our mouths.

Distorting the views of those you're arguing with makes you look like such good sports!

[bettyellen]

91. show us the links of people "demanding" Amina put her top on.

[idwiyo]

97. They are very skilful of creating their own imaginary fiends. Or making up stuff about

(Generic) you and blasting it away like its real. My last encounter with this poster was real eye opener.

[backscatter712]

102. Rule #1 when dealing with these characters: Call out their tactics. n/t

[RainDog]

26. Men weren't the only ones defending Amina and FEMEN

You shouldn't try to paint this as an issue of women vs. men because that's not true. You should stop with this sort of dishonest argument.

[ZombieHorde]

34. I am not painting it as women vs. men.

I'm saying women don't need men to tell how to be real feminists, just like Jews don't need non-Jews telling them how be real Jews, liberals don't need conservatives telling us how to be real liberals, etc.

[RainDog]

39. so you're telling men to sit down and shut up?

even when what they have to say is no different than what many woman also have to say.

personally, I don't think that accomplishes a whole lot. I would rather have people on my side who understand the long-standing misogyny that is part of revealed religion and support those who help to talk about this issue.

do you tell men to sit down and shut up on every issue related to feminism, or only those with which you disagree with them?

Should Obama sit down and shut up when he talks about rights for gblt people, since he is not one of them, too?

Should whites sit down and shut up when another white person engages in racist talk, or should blacks, only, be the ones to fight racism?

since gender is more aligned with issues related to racism, rather than religion (i.e. someone is born with certain characteristics) while those things you mention are cultural and behavioral issues, I have to wonder -

Where does the line begin and end, where someone may have an opinion?

I'm a white person but one of my biggest issues that concerns me is the treatment of minorities in this nation. I don't pretend I'm someone I'm not, but I can support those who are attacked merely because of the color of their skin. I don't presume to speak for them, but I can and do speak in support of them in a nation with a long history of racism that continues to play out in this society.

Should I sit down and shut up about those issues, too?

Would people who are impacted by racism prefer if I sit down and shut up, or would they prefer some solidarity for their struggle?

[bettyellen]

41. I think they were explaining we don't need to seek their approval and get a pat on the back.

True allies would not expect that we should, would they?

[RainDog]

42. I never saw a single man do that related to this issue

What I saw was women attacking other women and men who had a different opinion and framing that opinion as sexism, when it isn't.

[bettyellen]

78. no, just dozens of guys offering their approval and patting a feminist on the back for the first

time in their lives. It's cute they finally found a protest they can get behind.

[RainDog]

80. really?

do you really believe this is true about men here?

wow.

I think the issue became far more problematic than need be here because some insisted that it was just wrong that men enjoy looking at female bodies.

I like to look at male bodies. I'm not a sexist because of this. I'm a heterosexual.

[bettyellen]

85. truly, for some- this has been just a fun way of nursing their grudges.

and no, it was never about whether they enjoy looking at women's bodies. (I think that's a given. )
That was a twisted variation on the "feminists here are man haters" theme the same people like to put out there. We also got a good dose of the "white women's problems" BS. Do you think it's a coincidence that the same exact group of guys who disrupt threads discussing feminist issues here on a regular basis suddenly swarmed to celebrate this topless protest? I sure as hell don't. They saw some dissent over whether it was wise or effective, and jumped right in. It was because they'd like to administer a feminist purity test, and flunk us, demoting us to "feminists". LOL. No one told her to sit down and shut up, for fuck's sake. People merely though it was unwise or ineffective.
Talk about entitled bullshit, referring to women here as "feminists".

[idwiyo]

100. There you go again. Presenting your ASSumptions as facts. Shameful.

[bettyellen]

101. not talking to you. why would I bother when you make accusations that you cannot back up?

[idwiyo]

103. Of course you don't want to talk to *me*. Last time you didn't either. You talked to your imaginary

opponent that you made up and insisted it was me.

[RainDog]

123. well...

these same feminists have referred to others who don't share their opinions as "fun feminists" - as though not constantly presenting anger as the dominant mode is somehow a negative - because the use of "fun feminist" was presented in a derogatory way.

Some of these same have said that only cisgender women could participate in a feminist forum.

I didn't follow all these fights - I was caught in the crossfire, many times, not realizing battle lines had been drawn. I had iverglas on ignore for a loooong time, for instance, because interacting with her was such a negative experience. But I've been here for a while, so I eventually began to see how these things do down, often.

But how many others come here unaware and get that same treatment, I wonder? And how does that frame their responses?

I don't think the anger is one-sided and I don't think that those who claim they speak for women speak for all women, yet, if you disagree, your POSITION is not what gets attacked. The actual things you say in relation to a subject are dismissed and you are labeled in such a way to dismiss what someone says.

When people finally get fed up and give back what they get... funny that one side is given a pass for all the things they said and did if they happen to have more conservative views of issues like free speech, etc.

And, in fact, I have, in effect, been told to sit down and shut up because of posts related to the value of free speech even in regard to the issue of pornography. I can provide a link if you'd like.

So, while you dismiss what people say has been their experience, others know it from their own experience.

[bettyellen]

145. I agree with you that a lot of people were caught in that weird crossfire

that came about because a few found a new way to air their grudges. What stinks is people being so dishonest about the whole thing-
the insults and lies came instantly. There were a few people having a pretty reasonable discussion about the pros and cons of this kind of protest, and a few immediately jumped on to pretend there as some monolithic anti sex or anti fee speech thing going on - which is ridiculous. It was NEVER about free speech. If anyone in a porn thread or whatever told you to *in effect* shut up, that stinks- but it wasn't a bunch of people (it was one asshole) and it wasn't the Femen threads, so let's stop spreading this bullshit. It wasn't anyone's experience in the thread we are talking about. If you have to reach back to other, older topics to find an instance where someone told you to shut up- why don;t you instead just admit it didn't happen?

[RainDog]

157. thanks for sharing your thoughts

what I was doing was showing a pattern of behavior. I didn't respond to you in any hostile way in order to talk about this.

I don't need to admit anything. I have a record that demonstrates a pattern of behavior that gives me the proof to indicate that attacks on the person, not the position, is the sort of worthless argument that goes on in relation to issues of feminism too often, which is why I don't choose to associate with those who do this.

take care.

[bettyellen]

161. we surely agree there are too many personal attacks.

i'm not going to say it's okay coming from anyone. but these lies about people telling Amina to sit down and shut up are just that- lies. And they are designed to divide DUers by those with personal grudges. Anyone who goes along with that nonsense is part of the problem.

[idwiyo]

118. So, any man who stands with Amina or FEMEN are "patting a feminist on the back"? You sure

have damn awesome telepathic powers... Or is this more of your typical make up shit and pretend it facts?

[bettyellen]

138. dozens= any man? seriously idwiyo- do you even think before posting?

[idwiyo]

166. My bad! Read it as "any man out of the dozens you are talking about". Is that better? :)

Now, how about that awesome telepathic power of yours that let's you know what those "dozens" of men think?

[ZombieHorde]

49. Consider the following two phrases from a non-Democrat:

1) Chained cpi is unethical.

2) "Democrats" who support chained cpi are not real Democrats.

The first phrase is telling us how the speaker feels about chained cpi, while the second is telling people that they self identify wrong.

I am not saying people should sit down and shut up about civil rights, I am saying women don't need men to tell them how to be proper feminists, Christians don't need atheists to tell them how to be proper Christians, Democrats don't need Republicans to tell them how to be proper Democrats, Native Americans don't need white people to tell them how to be proper Native Americans, etc.

I'm a white person but one of my biggest issues that concerns me is the treatment of minorities in this nation. I don't pretend I'm someone I'm not, but I can support those who are attacked merely because of the color of their skin. I don't presume to speak for them, but I can and do speak in support of them in a nation with a long history of racism that continues to play out in this society.

Would you tell a person from a minority demographic how to be a proper minority?

[bettyellen]

51. Yup, which is exactly what male posters here do when they call us "feminists".... what bullshit.

they actually believe they are in a position to judge who's a real feminist and who is not.
Very telling behavior. Says it all.

[redqueen]

69. Thank you for taking the time to explain this.

It is a lesson that more than a few could stand to learn.

[RainDog]

77. I've had women tell me I'm not a real feminist

because I disagree with them on the issue of free speech, and even tho one of my thesis readers was one of the leading feminists in this nation who spoke out against Dworkin and MacKinnon's attack on free speech. This is also my position. They have attacked me by lying about what I've said. They've attacked me by claiming I am an apologist (as is Jennifer Granholm, apparently) because I don't accept the words of an anonymous blogger about pedophile accusations against someone.

I'm a woman. I don't think I should have to state my gender to have an opinion that differs from another woman's opinion.

I also don't think it's a feminist position to attack women who are engaging in political theater to bring attention to issues.

In the sixties, such actions had a big impact and brought many people's attention to the issue of Vietnam, for instance.

While some people disliked those actions, many did not.

While regressive political opponents were elected, they engaged in dirty tricks to do so, so I can't put the blame on those who were acting outside of the majority of society's approval, either. And, in any case, as soon as those dirty tricks were uncovered, America elected a progressive president who was shut down by the right wing...who, again, engaged in election fraud (and treason) to win an election.

I can look at history and see that those engaging in this political theater, etc. were on the right side of history, tho, and while many things are still problematic, over all change has moved toward societal disapproval of racism, sexism, wars of aggression, etc.

Few who were working within the system at that time held those positions, or were brave enough to stake political careers on them, and those who did were marginalized. But society changed without the powers-that-be accepting that change at the level of culture.

We're still dealing with those changes via religious fundamentalism in the U.S., which is many times a cover for racism and sexism, or, rather, intrinsic to them, but that's not the view of people in the majority in the U.S. anymore.

So, I look at history and see no need to condemn what Amina did, or to condemn what FEMEN is doing by confronting people in their comfortable spaces to ask them questions about their "freedom" to be under a religious system that oppresses them.

Since history indicates that religion and property ownership are the two most potent cultural norms that have contributed to women's oppression across the world, I see no problem with attacking religions that engage in sexism and homophobia too, for that matter, as part of their view of the world.

[ZombieHorde]

92. Unfortunately, many groups eat their own.

I'm a woman. I don't think I should have to state my gender to have an opinion that differs from another woman's opinion.

There are at least two different issues here. One is discussing our viewpoints on different issues, and having honest disagreements, and the other issue is telling people who they are and who they are not. I am addressing the second issue in this thread.

The belief that each argument should be judged on its own, regardless of who made the argument, is a belief I generally enthusiastically adhere to. However, in my opinion, there is a big difference between a Wiccan telling Catholics how to be proper Catholics and a Catholic telling Catholics how to be proper Catholics. Both are undesirable, in my opinion, but one is more undesirable than the other.

One difficulty with discussing feminism is the fact that there is more than one type of feminism, but the various types are all generally simply called feminism. Because of this, two different people can hold opposite view points on a subject (e.g., FEMEN, Islam), yet both views can still be feminist views.

[bettyellen]

99. and many just love an opportunity to exploit these differences of opinion for sport

what idiot thinks every feminist agrees on every issue?

[The Straight Story]

108. I think the underlying point, which you have brought up here is

Feminists don't always agree and that does not make them any less of feminist.

Some of us on DU don't always agree with some feminists either (while we do with others) - but when we don't agree it is because we are uneducated , hate women, hate feminism, etc.

What idiot thinks we all have to agree on every issue to be considered on the same side in general on the core ideals (equality for all, etc)?

[bettyellen]

111. except quite a few of Amina's most ardent supporters were faking it- they could not hazard a guess

what her point was. Well they guessed but they were mostly wrong- for days. And that is an issue also with Femen- hazy messaging, but it gets press because it's such a great photo op.

[idwiyo]

113. More ASSumptions. How do you know they were "faking it"? Telepathic mind read? Or more likely

you just make up shit about other people and proceed to present it as facts?

[RainDog]

121. So, if Alan Keyes called out someone who was white

who talked about the racist application of the law in regard to things like stop and frisk - because Keyes is African-American, he has more authority to speak on this issue even when others who are African-American disagree?

But if Michelle Alexander were on the same program and called out Alan Keyes, since she has done a lot of excellent work on this subject...then it would be okay to tell Alan Keyes he's full of shit if he tried to claim law enforcement is not racist in its application in America?

I guess I don't have the same segregated view of who can have an opinion (backed up by data.)

Is Alan Keyes a person to tell African-Americans how to be a "proper minority" when he aligns with a party that is composed of homophobic and racist people - does the color of his skin confer automatic respect for his positions?

Martin Luther King's niece speaks out against abortion and claims his legacy to do so. MLK's wife disagrees and she supports planned parenthood.

But, if it's not another African-American, no one can disagree with MLK's niece because that's racist? Even tho others who are African-American disagree with her?

I guess that sort of logic sounds sort of like segregation. "Their" problems cannot be of importance to me because I don't have the proper skin tone.

I would not presume, again, to speak for any other minority's experience, but when people who are part of a minority have made statements on both sides of an issue - one side of the issue doesn't speak for all people who would be considered part of that minority.

[ZombieHorde]

140. Identity and policy are two different things.

So, if Alan Keyes called out someone who was white who talked about the racist application of the law in regard to things like stop and frisk - because Keyes is African-American, he has more authority to speak on this issue even when others who are African-American disagree?

No, because this is about policy and I'm talking about self identity.

Is Alan Keyes a person to tell African-Americans how to be a "proper minority" when he aligns with a party that is composed of homophobic and racist people - does the color of his skin confer automatic respect for his positions?

If he is talking about black identity in the US, then yes, he more authority than a non-black person in the US because he experience with that. If he is talking about policy, then no.

Martin Luther King's niece speaks out against abortion and claims his legacy to do so. MLK's wife disagrees and she supports planned parenthood.

This is about policy, and not identity.

I guess that sort of logic sounds sort of like segregation. "Their" problems cannot be of importance to me because I don't have the proper skin tone.

I think you should feel free to discuss the problems of other people, but you should not tell them how to self identify.

[RainDog]

159. so we're in agreement that men who have an opinion

about FEMEN are not engaging in a "pat on the back" if they come down on one side of an issue vs another.

[ZombieHorde]

162. Yes, unless the opinion also involves telling women how to be proper feminists.

My argument in this thread has nothing to do FEMEN. Their tactics are complex due to cultural issues, so honest disagreements are going to occur.

[RainDog]

165. If someone thinks that religious dictates do not allow women choice

and speaks out about that - the issue, it seems, it not telling women how to be proper feminists, but rather stating that religious ideology is prohibiting women from creating their own consciousness regarding their identity as humans.

This is a classic "false consciousness" argument... Religion as a social construct that pretends it represents biological determinism as defined by a religion, with all the restrictions, such as dress, being a form of control to emphasize the "otherness" and second-class status put upon women because of various religious ideologies.

If this is the argument, and I think it is, it is not telling women how to be proper feminists to note when one religious culture or another doesn't allow women to decide what their proper feminism might be by the very nature of the belief itself.

Since religion has such a powerful effect upon people because of its claims to speak for an omnipotent reality, the struggle for an authentic voice reaches beyond the worries of a here and now - and this psychological reach - this manipulation of consciousness that begins at the moment of being, presents women with more difficulty than the gender that is privileged with attributes that are given to another gender, not their own.

That's how I understand the arguments concerning women and belief, no matter what religion, as long as that religion codifies biological determinism as part of its belief.

[ZombieHorde]

167. When a man refers to some women feminists as feminists, and other women feminists as "feminists,"

he is attacking their identity. The other things are separate issues.

[RainDog]

169. I think that came about

because some people here were defending muslim women who said FEMEN didn't speak for them and they were applauded for this (they had signs saying extolling their modesty, etc.) and others noted the irony in the position that a woman was operating from true consciousness to wear the veil and attack FEMEN, but women who chose to be immodest were operating from false consciousness (this is not limited to FEMEN's actions, but also to issues of sex workers, etc.)

The back and forth was about men participating in a thread showing support for women who bared their breasts and making jokes about their interest in seeing the pictures and women saying these guys only care about women's issues if a woman bares her breasts.

Others noted that, agree or not, they brought attention to Amina. And, the reality is that they have also done things that are "blasphemous" regarding other religion, too, again, while topless.

So, the reason for the quotes was what some saw as selective approval of actions that, conveniently, aligned with previous disagreements about how women use their bodies, whether for protest, employment, etc.

Of course, the elephant in the room in all that is the reality that capitalism determines many people's choices and creates situations that replicate religious "whore/madonna" labels for women.

There were various threads, but this one pretty much laid out the airing of grievances portion of our DU celebration of women.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2663197

[ZombieHorde]

172. In my opinion, those are valid disagreements on issues and tactics.

The various feminists movements have had very strong disagreements for over 100 years. In my opinion, these disagreements are beneficial for the movement. I like the debate on the rhetorical tactics of FEMEN. Both sides have some really valid points, and what is interesting to me is that many of those opposing points don't contradict each other. In my view, the debate weighs harms against benefits.

All that said, women don't need men telling them how to be proper feminists.

[backscatter712]

60. Please keep distorting my statements and putting words in my mouth! n/t

[ZombieHorde]

83. I think we established that I have neither distorted your position nor put words in your mouth. nt

[backscatter712]

86. Let's see - accusing me of being racist against a billion people,

or of enjoying the FEMEN protests like they were a Mardi Gras parade.

Those are some serious accusations. Way to make friends and influence people.

[ZombieHorde]

93. I have not accused anyone here of being racist, and I have not mentioned Mardi Gras.

I laughed at a joke someone made about Mardi Gras, but the only thing I accused you of was telling some women how to be proper feminists.

[backscatter712]

104. Not you specifically. But another person did, and made a spectacular ass of herself. n/t

[stevenleser]

110. Femen appreciates support from their supporters. nt

[ZombieHorde]

116. That has nothing to do with what I was saying, but thanks for sharing. nt

[stevenleser]

117. Oh yes it does. nt

[ZombieHorde]

137. Then you have no idea what I'm saying. nt

[stevenleser]

178. The problem is that you have no idea what you are saying. You're making it up as you go along

to hurl garbage at Femen and their supporters.

[ZombieHorde]

179. Please point out something bad I have said about FEMEN and their supporters.

All I have argued is that women don't need men telling them how to be proper feminists. I have not seen a single argument from FEMEN that says women need men to tell them how to be proper feminists, so I don't think I am hurling garbage at them.

[idwiyo]

125. There is no conspiracy by male DUers to dictate to anyone who is and isn't a feminist.

Sadly that shameful attempt was initiated by some female DUers against other DUers and non-DUers.

But you are well aware of that.

[ZombieHorde]

141. I have not made any conspiracy claims.

I said that women don't need men to tell them how to be proper feminists. The male DU member I was talking to disagrees with me on that subject. That doesn't mean he is a bad person, or anything like that, it just means we disagree.

[Cleita]

36. I agree with you about forcing them to wear it.

However, many aren't forced to. They want to wear it, because they feel it's part of their religion, like Amish wear what they wear.

[kardonb]

53. muslims

what a ridiculous conclusion , backscatter . We do not hate all muslims ; we may disagree with them on some points of religious conviction , but that does NOT constitute hate .

[backscatter712]

54. I was being sarcastic.

Because a certain group of dishonest people here on DU loves to twist people's words, then use that distorted meaning to label people as bigots.

It's not you, it's a different group of people.

[efhmc]

142. What the hell are you talking about?

[SamKnause]

2. Hijab

[bettyellen]

3. Well done! good to see the hypocrisy exposed.

[backscatter712]

6. Doesn't that cleric look like the Muslim version of Pat Robertson?

If he was wearing a suit and tie, they'd look like identical twins!

[Segami]

8. LOL!

The 700 Punk Club!

[Newest Reality]

30. Yes, he does!

Good comparison.

Though, he gives us old guys with beards who wear funny clothes a bad name.

Nothing really gives him any more authority than the rest of us have other than a title, a book and the beliefs that people are subjected to as ultimate truths.

He's just an old guy with a beard who wears funny clothes and has a real bad, authoritarian staff up his ass.

[backscatter712]

70. I couldn't have said it better myself! n/t

[Auntie Bush]

11. He only mistake when she walked off is

She should have balled up the Hijab in a tight ball and thrown it in his face!

[freshwest]

88. I thought about that too, or pulling that hat off his head. Costumes signifying nothing.

He's a kid playing dress up and demanding that others do the same.

[randome]

14. Burn all the bras and hijabs.

And then neckties. I hate neckties.

[Skidmore]

19. Please add hobbling stiletto heels to that list.

I see modern fashion in the west as designed to slow women down. I loathe it.

[randome]

31. I really wish we could discard all this pointless packaging and try to see each other, instead.

[LadyHawkAZ]

119. ^THIS RIGHT HERE. +100,000,000,000,000

[Cleita]

37. I have refused to wear those for fifty years. n/t

[DevonRex]

56. Not the bras. I like mine, thanks.

Some of us are more comfortable with than without.

[randome]

89. No offense, then. I meant metaphorically, of course.

To each their own.

[reformist2]

18. The bottom line is that it's demeaning and stupid and ridiculous.

[bettyellen]

32. she made a wonderful point that if she covered up, it would be for God, and not him.

I'm an atheist, but I think that is an incredibly important point.

[redqueen]

71. "I will wear it for god, not for you." No 'if'.

I would make a snarky comment here about the things that have been said about Muslim women who choose to wear the hijab, but nah. Too easy.

[JI7]

171. there are lesbian muslims who wear the hijab

and i mean ones who are open and in relationships with other women in public. it might seem kind of strange at first for those who have a certain view of muslim women and especially those who wear certain clothing. but it's an example that some women DO want to wear it.

i use to think it was only or mostly the right wing that was ignorant of other people but sadly that is not the case. even in this thread you have comments trying to give credit to other non muslims and trying to make it about themselves rather than seeing and accepting that muslim women have been and continue to fight for themselves.

and i don't even like religion but is it so hard to judge people individually ?

[RainDog]

23. Brava!

What a courageous thing to do.

[Liberal In Texas]

27. Save us from the clerics

Don't care what flavor the religion is, people should not give them the power to dictate how they live.

[lunasun]

29. I like her last lines about peddling

[GiveMeFreedom]

38. "No, I am the one who is leaving"

I liked that. Right at the end. The cleric is a snake oil sales man, straight up.

[Cleita]

40. He needs to go to his heaven and have those 72 virgins promised him

nag him for eternity telling him what they think of his attitude about women. I hope they all have the same determination that woman has.

[Apophis]

43. She exposed his hypocrisy and I'm glad.

I hope more Islamic women take a stand against their sexist and patriarchal religion.

[ljm2002]

45. Nicely done, Riham Said! n/t

[dkf]

47. Wow wow wow. I love this woman!!!!!!

Good for her.

[Blue Palasky]

48. I think I just fell in love with this woman

good. for. her.

[blackspade]

50. Carry on my lady.

I hope she stays safe from the fundamentalist assclowns!

[rollin74]

52. she is awesome!

I love this video

[Kali]

76. in your FACE, old man!

[Paulie]

79. A real journalist

[MADem]

81. Listen to that fucking asshole blathering "Haram! Haram! Haram! Haram!"

What kind of cleric demands 1000 Egyptian pounds!!!!


What's not to love about this woman???? She's FANTABULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[freshwest]

84. She's great. Called on his foolishness, he plays the victim! Typical blowhard conservative tantrum.

We can see which person in the interview has a fine mind and isn't afraid to use it. Excellent points made there. The conservative nutnick needs a wahmbulance.

I'm at that old windbag.

Sending kudos to her!

[Segami]

124. LOL! 1+

[idwiyo]

109. K&R BRAVO!

[Generic Other]

115. What a brave woman

She's beautiful. The cleric. He's ugly. Who needs to be covered?

[LadyHawkAZ]

120. Well done her! in my humble Western imperialist warmongering opinion n/t

[BainsBane]

122. way to deliberately misunderstand an argument

Is the idea that SHE is making that choice instead of YOU really so difficult to comprehend?

[RainDog]

158. congrats to you

for not taking the bait that is the dishonest and disruptive way some here conduct themselves.

[LadyHawkAZ]

173. I'm too tired and too high for arguments

Allergy med cocktail. I've been camping out in the Lounge until I can think straight again.

[RainDog]

174. She tried to get me ppr'd when I got tired of her lies

and lost my temper because of the dishonest attacks she brings to others... as she just did, above.

but I was told she's considered a disruptor so, heads up.

[HiPointDem]

126. 1) not a veil. 2) apparently what she did was ok with the tv station. 3) this seems to be

tied to a current controversy.

[Bonobo]

130. One undeniable fact is that FEMEN raised consciousness of this issue and helped bring light to it.

Bravo to them for doing so.

[JI7]

132. he got angry when she brought up how he got paid to appear on the show

and when she asked what kind of a cleric would demand money to go on a show.

[alphafemale]

134. Just as women in this country have had to carve out their own freedom.

Many countries will have their own iron jawed angels.

No army is big enough to free a single soul from bondage. No army is large enough to imprison a soul that will not be bound.

[heaven05]

136. religion

and the people who push this scam for personal gain (1000 pounds?) and agendas is what I don't like. The male trying to dominate this woman in the name of religion is what this is all about. Amazing how fucked up religion can be. She's a fighter, I applaud her.

[Marrah_G]

143. A wonderful video of a woman standing up for her rights....

And the thread is turned into a shitstorm ...... on a progressive message board.

[riderinthestorm]

149. [phone]. nt

[gtar100]

147. Poor little man.

All must conform to his interpretation of Islam or he can't deal with it.

I should rephrase that... Pathetic little man.

[Phillip McCleod]

160. fucking awesome smackdown. i love how she handles him..

..knows just where the buttons are and how to push them to pull the mask away, revealing him for the fraud he is.

classic. and now it's viral. i bet she just blew a few minds. and got herself a promotion or better job offer. who wouldn't want a journalist with that kinda spine? i mean, besides cable news?

[Honeycombe8]

163. Good for her! nt

[JackRiddler]

175. How terrible this thread was hijacked by a foolish first comment.

Divide & conquer?

[stevenleser]

176. I'm not sure that qualifies as hijacking. Its an extremely similar topic.

Protests for women's rights in Asia Minor, the Middle East and Africa by deliberately provocative acts. Amina did it, Femen did it and this newscaster did it.