We all know men who think they deserve to own women: This is a horrifying exaggeration of that.

[lindysalsagal]

But they don't usually go to these lengths to make it a reality.

I think this is really scary because there is still a tendency for some men to think everything is here for their use, including women. It's not guaranteed that men see women as equal, autonomous, valued, independent people. There is still a strong thread of bias here in america where men truly believe their desires should prevail over everyone else's rights.

I know you're all going to jump all over this thread with "Well, my husband sure isn't like that so you should be thrown off the board."

Fine. Be argumentative. If it makes you really happy. But this is where you get polygamists and abusers and abandoners- there are many men who truly don't see the value in another being, except in how that person can serve them. And here are three of them, watching the other 2, all believing that they had the right to do what they did.

I know women who's exes would not let them go, and when the courts finally intervened, they still continued the harassment and gate-keeping. This is why we have women's shelters in every city:

Some men are still in the cave man stage.

[upaloopa]

1. Excuse me, I don't know any men that want to own

women. Don't use these women in your personal crusade.
On edit:
This anti men shit is getting real old on this board. Can't you find somewhere else on the net to do your rants?

[lindysalsagal]

3. How old are you?

Given time, you'll hear about some in your own town. Otherwise, we wouldn't need women's hidden shelters.

[upaloopa]

7. I'll be 67 next week. I don't need you to teach me about life!

[lindysalsagal]

11. Apparently, you do.

[upaloopa]

12. I really don't know how to deal with people like you.

You are so enamored with yourself and you opinions. I guess you win if it makes your day

[lindysalsagal]

14. This thread already has 8 recs in a few minutes.

It resonates with someone. So, maybe you deal with me by considering that I have personal reasons to back up what I'm typing, instead of just assuming I'm kicking up sand.

[upaloopa]

16. So your posse recs you post gunners get that too

[lindysalsagal]

22. I have 0 posse, and I don't know anyone on here. I am not a chronic user. Sorry.

This is real, and it resonates. I don't manipulate this board. I come in here occasionally, casually.

You make alot of incorrect assumptions, all of them personal, and off topic. If you don't like this topic, move on. No one made you read or reply.

[A HERETIC I AM]

24. Recs mean bugger all on DU these days.

Some people would rec a thread title if it said "Men Suck" or "Puppies and kitties are fluffy"


Don't put too much stock in the fact that you got recs.

The fact that there isn't a "thumbs down" or the dreaded "unrec" means you aren't getting a proper representation of how well your thread is truly received.

[Whisp]

54. I just added another rec.

some people just can't see stuff right in front of their face - no matter how long in the tooth they are.

Why do they take this so personally?

There is a report today from the military on rape. That is another kind of ownership than men think they have. It's epidemic, it's all over - but yet some refuse to accept this and that is why it is so prevalent.

[lindysalsagal]

57. I'm only surprised that I was the first to say it.

I knew this statement would resonate. Thanks for the rec: Women need to wake up.

This awful event will probably prompt some women to take charge of their own negative situations, although not as extreme as this.

[NCTraveler]

199. "Why do they take this so personally? "

Might not go over well but here it is.

I think some men take things like this personally because they have fought personal urges their whole life. Urges to dominate women. These men are of good mind and soul and have worked their whole life to treat women as equals, even if something internally is telling them differently. They can see it is the "right" way to be a part of a community. It then becomes offensive to them to read something like this because of the effort they have put in. I give them credit for that effort and it is a good thing. Therefore, it is personal because they have made a personal effort to be a better person than what has been ingrained into them mentally from a young age.

Just my thought on one reason some good men might take this personally. Others probably take it personally because it hits close to home. I just think it is not inherently bad if a man takes something like this personally. Although, they do need to look at the topic from the perspective of society as a whole, and not just them personally.

[Whisp]

234. Feminazi? Are you a Rush fan that just made a wrong turn and ended up here?

Or are you one of our more well known that are Men's Right Activists under another name?

I will probably get alerted for this and yours will stay, because that's how things roll here nowadays.

[sufrommich]

235. +1, or as our new member would say:

Megadittos!

[lindysalsagal]

304. The great Limppaw labels all women with their own opinion feminazis.

I choose to use it out of defiance of him and his ilk. Call me any name you choose: I'll still be here, disagreeing with the fat blow-hard.

[krawhitham]

126. Thats only because TPTB took away unrec

Congrats 68 people agree with you,

with over 200k users, that would be .034% of the user base

[cliffordu]

153. Mebbe DU isn't group therapy.

Mebbe your 'personal reasons' are a hindrance to your message.

[mzteris]

109. Denial?

Or just prevarication? Maybe just locked in a closet. Blissfully blithely clueless?

Obviously this one either hasn't a clue either through a remarkable series of circumstances hat induces complete unawareness of one"s surroundings, or through pure and simple refusal to see and/or admit it exists.

Men who keep crying they're being demonized on this board either don't comprehend or refuse to admit that no one here NEEDS to demonize. Merely read the paper and watch he news to know what is happening in the world.

Are ALL men like that? No. But to insist that all are not, or refuse to admit the behaviors of even those who are not, as contributory factors to the overall pervasiveness of abuse, is simply self serving denial. Or prevarication. Take your pick.

[krawhitham]

122. You need to find a new circle of friends

I also don't know any men that want to own a woman

[EOTE]

226. A circle of friends who needs to be told what to think.

From someone who's not very good at that to begin with.

[EOTE]

225. Thank you so much for telling women how to think!

It gets so tiring trying to tell them all myself. You may not be all that great when it comes to thinking, but I'm sure they appreciate you doing it for them.

[Gravitycollapse]

46. Age and experience do not neccessitate one another.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

208. Hey this is not about life.

This is about non-equality. Slavery in this country ended.
As a 61 yr old male I am truly embarrassed by your responses.
This is not about age either, I only state mine for reference.

You should apologize for your remarks. Be a man!

[upaloopa]

102. So I wanted to wait awhile so you could get what you needed out of this OP and me.

You have something in common with the men you rail against. These men don't want to own women. They want to use them and control them. Use them for their selfish immediate self gratification. That is as opposed to men who care about the women as much as they do themselves or sometimes more.

You use this board and people like me to get your selfish immediate gratification. What bugged me about your OP is that you use the plight of these poor women for you selfish needs.

Now you can define me all you want because it doesn't really matter. First no one here knows me so it really has no effect once this OP has been shoved down the list. Secondly you don't know me and so you really have no basis to define me.

Also you are on the extreme in this issue and the extremes never really contribute to solving the problem. You are all about yourself and your need for gratification. It is quiet people like Clair McCaskill (who was just on Rachael Maddow's show) who are working to put an end to the assaults of women in the military. And it is people like me who have known men who have on their mind to get their self gratification by using a women and calls them out for it and tries to prevent it. I was in the military and I have seen these guys. It was mostly the nurses in Vietnam who were getting assaulted and the women Vietnamese who lived there.

So you'll continue to post you self serving OP's and using people like me to get your kicks but you don't deserve the respect of someone who is working to do something about what you rail against.

[lindysalsagal]

308. "You are all about yourself and your need for gratification. " Pure projection.

This is the number 2 post on the greatest page (with 8300+ views) because it resonates with many, many women. I don't need any gratification, and I don't get any from this. This is a sad state of affairs, that our society is still so uncaring about women, that we need secret shelters in every city.

Women know these stories about men controlling them, as you admit happens, in their own lives.

I have not defined you in any way. That is all in your very angry imagination, something I can't do anything about.

Please don't call people a-holes and then accuse me of using a thread for my own gratification.

Look at your own angry words, and realize that you've proven my point, right here in this thread.

[upaloopa]

313. Well my post has been turned over to the jury and it is still standing. You know why? Because

there are people who agree with me. I won't read your reply to me because this has gone on long enough. I'll try to remember who you are and not get into the next pissing match you start.

[PatSeg]

205. I've known more men than I can count who felt

like they "owned" their women. I've seen abuse, harassment, orders of protection, threats, etc. throughout my life.

I don't understand why some people get so defensive. Just because some men treat women poorly, doesn't mean we're saying that applies to ALL men. I think it was appropriate to bring up the topic. The more we discuss such things out in the open, the better we become. I can remember when no one talked openly about it, making a lot of women feel like they were alone with their "shameful" secrets.

[Arugula Latte]

223. And even among (many, not all) of the men I've known who are "good guys"

there is an underlying attitude that their opinions count more than the women's and therefore their way of doing things should prevail. I've had several of this type in my own extended family.

[PatSeg]

229. My father never treated my mother that way,

so when the girls in our family grew up and got married, we were shocked to find out that wasn't the norm (at least at that time). A lot depends on how the men are raised. They are often imitating their own fathers and grandfathers.

[Bonobo]

317. Feeling that you matter more than the other...

Feeling that you are the only star in the only movie that counts, namely "your movie"...


Is a HUMAN condition. A HUMAN problem. And women suffer from it in the same proportions. But they act it out differently.

Men may do it in more overt ways that are more visible because of the use of external power. Women use their own power in their own way and YES, they have power and influence that men do not have. You can pretend it isn't true, but it is.

[Aristus]

4. Damn.

That didn't take long...

[lindysalsagal]

8. You find somewhere else. This is a reality. More assaults in the military today.

This is not a crusade, as long as this stuff is happening.

[upaloopa]

15. I know what's happening. I still don't know anyone

who wants to own women.

[SemperEadem]

53. A very wise person told me once a long time ago

just because it's not your reality doesn't mean it's not a reality---to someone else.

[upaloopa]

103. A wiser person would say there is only one reality.

[allGoodThings]

178. And a fool would claim to know it as their own

[lunatica]

183. Which one is that?

Yours? That's not wisdom. You talk about how you know no man who wants to own a woman and yet you said upthread that you know men who want to use women and how you've known women nurses and civilians in Vietnam who were raped.

Make up your mind.

[SwissTony]

188. As a white man, I don't claim to share the same "reality" as, say, a black man

or woman. I've experienced racism just once from one idiot. This incident was immediately followed by an apology from a woman (of the same race) with rather more common sense then the male perpetrator. But I don't have to worry about being pulled aside by the cops because of my skin colour. I don't have to worry about being called the n-word. I don't have to worry about 4 guys ganging up on me because I'm black (they may gang up on me for another reason).

Nor do I have to contend with guys staring at my tits or making wolf whistles when I walk by or making rude comments which I'm meant to hear. My opinions matter more to many people because I'm a man, even if a woman has the same or even a more informed opinion.

I "enjoy" white male privilege. It exists, even though I wish it didn't.

[SemperEadem]

211. No, only an old fool who's on the losing end of an argument

would say something like that in order to "keep a dog in the hunt".

No. Your life experiences and reality are not mine or anyone else's and never will be. It is pridefull to think that it is.

[upaloopa]

218. You don't know shit about reality. You have your opinions based on the paradigm you see life

through. Putting me down doesn't add any validity to what you say.

[SemperEadem]

346. the exact same thing applies to you

old lady.

[smirkymonkey]

340. +10.000

[Whisp]

56. how can you be so sure you know everyone that well?

the castros were bbq buddies, they scratched puppies, they were 'normal' to neighbours eyes. If you have this mysterious built in radar to know this maybe you should lend yourself out to the police to catch the bad ones and we can all be safe.

[MadrasT]

61. +1

[Skittles]

67. YES YOU DO

they just don't let YOU know

[lindysalsagal]

71. There it is:

The point.

[Skittles]

75. it's like saying you don't know any gay people

I mean, seriously

[upaloopa]

107. If you will remember some time back we had the same conversation and I told you I have a lot to

learn from whomever we were discussing at that time.

So I will admit I don't know it all unlike many on this board. But these men don't want to own women, they want to use them and to do that they try to control them. It is selfish gratification they are after.

It is needed by some on this board to be the be all and end all of certain issues. They don't contribute to the dialog. They don't help solve the problem. They use us and try to control us similar to the men they complain about. It is selfish gratification they are after.

[Skittles]

119. when I was in the military

I always felt sorry for the Asian military wives - inevitably the guys were complete assholes - made me wonder just how bad it had to be to use a complete jerk to escape

[MattBaggins]

125. It is not all men with Asian wives but

the men I meet who want them, are 9 times out of 10, latent misogynists and believe in a stereotype of Asian women that is down right sickening.

[wickerwoman]

131. Yes, I agree

and think your post was unfairly hidden.

It's not, as you say, all men who say they want Asian wives but it's a hell of a lot. I met and worked with a huge cross-section of Asian-wife hunters when I lived in China and 90% misogynists is a conservative estimate.

Ask them why they want Asian wives and the answer is almost always "because they're more feminine". Ask them what they mean by "more feminine" and they either mean 1. smaller, frailer, wear more make up, wear skimpy clothes or 2. serve me dinner, do all the housework, massage my feet or 3. are giggly and helpless and make me feel like a big man by letting me pay for dinner and hold open doors.

And it's racist to begin with to say "I want an Asian wife and would never consider any other type of woman". How would we respond to a woman who said "I only want to date black men because they're more masculine"? It wouldn't be by assuming any man who was offended by that statement was "just jealous" or a "fat unfuckable hag".

[LittleBlue]

169. So what?

If they seek a more feminine woman and find that quality in Asian women, what is the problem? I guess the alternative is to date women to whom they are not attracted, which doesn't really make sense unless you desire a loveless relationship and doomed marriage.

"I only want to date black men because they're more masculine"?

You can't logically shape sexual preference, it doesn't work that way. If she is sexually attracted to black men due to their masculinity, there's nothing wrong with that. Just by making normal sexual choices like blonde/dark haired, tall/short, heavyset/skinny, etc you are excluding hundreds of millions with each choice. Maybe there are some people who truly have no preference and thus are willing to judge everyone solely based on their personality, but those people are few.

[wickerwoman]

172. The problem is in defining femininity

Last edited Wed May 8, 2013, 06:07 AM - Edit history (1)

as skinny, small, helpless, submissive, infantile or spending tons of money on cosmetics and skimpy clothing which is what those men are actually saying when they say that "Asian women are more feminine" just as a woman who says "Black men are more masculine and therefore they are the only men I am attracted to" is probably referring to penis size or athleticism which don't have anything to do with real masculinity any more than cooking dinner every night or collecting Hello Kitty dolls makes a woman "feminine".

Most of the men I worked with who had fetishes for Asian women explicitly stated that they thought feminism had "ruined" Western women or that white women were too fat, bossy or picky about the men they would date and that they wanted a "traditional" woman who would raise the kids, cook dinner and bring them their slippers when they came home from work.

Sorry, but that's not about sexual preference. It's about power and lack of respect for the other person in the relationship. They're not genuinely attracted to Asian women because of their hair texture or eye shape or skin tone, for example. The American guy who lived in the flat below me in Shanghai used to call his girlfriend a slant-eyed c*** as he was beating the shit out of her at 3am as a matter of fact.

I can completely respect a white guy who meets and falls in love with an Asian woman based on mutual respect and attraction and where both parties come into the arrangement with their eyes open and on reasonably equal terms. I have friends and relatives in mixed-race relationships that are very happy.

What I have a problem with is the exploitative nature of relationships between Western men who specifically target Asian women and particularly Chinese women knowing how desperate many of those women are as a result of poverty, the one-child policy, and the travel restrictions in their home country. And I met a shit-load of them in China. You literally couldn't walk down the street or take the subway without seeing a 60+ year old Western troll with a 20 something Asian girlfriend pretty enough to be a model on his arm. And then I'd go into the office and listen to these men brag like they were Don f'in Juan because they could get a different Chinese girl in the sack every night when nobody in the US would look twice at them.

And I have a problem with anyone who says that in order to be a "real" woman you have to constantly defer to men, hide your intelligence, give up your career, starve yourself, and spend all your time and money shopping and grooming yourself. None of that makes you "more feminine" any more than spending all your time at the gym or working on cars makes a man more masculine.

[Turborama]

173. I think they're picking up on you saying "it's racist to begin with"

it's racist to begin with to say "I want an Asian wife and would never consider any other type of woman"

Which is saying it's inherrintly racist to prefer being in a relationship with someone from Asia.

Don't you see what's wrong with that assumption?

[wickerwoman]

186. I'm not saying it's racist to prefer a certain type.

I'm saying it's racist to exclude any other person from consideration if they don't belong to the ethnic group you have a fetish for.

And the point is that many of these men when they say "I only want to date Asian women" don't mean actual Asian women from Asia but actually mean stereotypical looking Asian woman who act in a traditional manner. They wouldn't actually consider a fat Thai woman or really bossy Japanese woman or a Mongolian woman who worked on farm all her life, had massive callused hands and dressed in animal skins. And they would consider a skinny, submissive American woman with Chinese ancestry.

And what is "Asian" anyway? It technically covers people from India and the Caucauses. There are white-skinned Asian people.

Where the racism comes in is with the very narrow and stereotyped definition of what an Asian woman is and then that intersects with very backwards assumptions about gender roles.

[Turborama]

190. So, you don't see anything wrong with the initial assumption and are doubling down on it?

Got it.

[Aerows]

212. I disagree with that post

But there have been more than enough men that have expressed desires to have an Asian wife merely because they have been raised as women to be submissive to their husbands, let him make every decision, and stand by him even if he is violent.

Let's not cloud facts simply to "win" an argument and say that this is something that does not occur.

My .02

[wickerwoman]

230. It's called a discussion.

If you have an argument to make, make it.

[AsahinaKimi]

213. You are spot on..

I have had some experiences with this, in fact stalked by a guy who was hot on me only because I was Asian. I have had girl friends also who told me that Asian girls turned them on.. I seriously began to wonder whether they liked me for being me ..or because I was Japanese and Korean origin. I have been in chat rooms where guys have specifically come in looking for Asian girls.. fortunately as a mod we were able to boot them out, if they become too aggressive. Our chat room was about music, and not a pick up room for someone who had their mind set, that they wanted to cyber with someone who looked like me.

[redqueen]

315. Well said. Too bad your other post was unfairly hidden.

Yet some other seriously nasty posts in this thread have been left to stand.

[BainsBane]

139. That what people in Ariel Castro's neighborhood thought too

until yesterday. There is a lot about people we don't know.

[justiceischeap]

179. Just because you don't know anyone personally doesn't mean the attitude isn't out there

It's kinda like saying I don't know any gay people, so they must not exist.

When I was young I dated a man who seemed nice and normal, so I married him. Immediately after marrying him, he did a complete 180 in personality. When I'd go to my parents to do our laundry, I wouldn't have been gone more than an hour (not nearly enough time to get there and do a single load of laundry) when he'd call and want to know where I was and why I wasn't home yet. It took him 4 months to become violent and I immediately left him.

You hear stories everyday of some man who kills a woman because if he can't have her, no one can. Does this mean every man is this way? Hell no and the OP didn't say that. However, to deny that there are men out there that think women are theirs to control is just insanity--hell, just look at the Republican party and the laws they're trying to create when it comes to women and our reproductive health. Or trying to redefine rape laws. Or when women are accused of being "hysterical" when we have a strong opinion about something but men can have the same opinion and that's just fine. Or, in your instance, when someone brings up this topic, you accuse her of having an agenda, when all she is really doing is pointing out reality. Reality is not an agenda.

There is inequity in gender roles to this day and some men take it to the extreme--it isn't an agenda to point that out.

[DLevine]

185. Very well said.

I was married to a man like that.

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

210. Wake up!

I'm soooo glad you don't know any males like that, you are truly a blessed man.
Truth is, just because YOU don't know them does not mean they don't exist in droves.

Aplologize, mister, prove you are really a man.

[Recursion]

159. Most military sexual assaults are male on male, though

And in a sick reversal of the fearmongering about gays openly serving, the most common pattern is a sexual assault of a gay male servicemember by his straight (but twisted) comrades.

[BainsBane]

164. There were 3364 assaults reported in the military this year

And an additional 26,000 estimated sexual assaults. Are you actually saying most are male on male? That isn't the impression the Senate or the media has given.

[Recursion]

166. A DoD survey said 1% of males and 6% of females

had experienced sexual assault from others in the military. That shakes out to about 12,000 men and 2,000 women, or male-on-male sexual assault outnumbering male-on-female by about 6 to 1 (female-on-anyone is statistically non-existent).

(Looking at that, that doesn't really address incidents of assault, since one victim may be and sadly often is victimized multiple times.)

[BainsBane]

167. Sounds like those are separate surveys.

The one released today include reported assaults plus a phone survey of unreported attacks.

[BainsBane]

168. also 6% sounds very low

[flamingdem]

27. Will add what I wrote below - some Latin American countries

permit a man to kill his woman if he finds her with another man. All legal.

[BainsBane]

141. You couldn't defend the point in your first reference

by providing examples, so you repeat it here.
Years ago Brazil had a defense of honor law, but it was repealed at least 25 years ago.
It is irresponsible to say such things without evidence. It perpetuates ugly stereotypes.

[whopis01]

182. Brazil never had any such law

Defense of honor had used as a defense strategy, but it was never part of the criminal code. It is now specifically disallowed as a defense strategy.

[BainsBane]

233. Yes, thank you for that clarification

an important one.

[kestrel91316]

48. You must not get out much. Time and again this happens -

Jaycee Lee Duggard, the girl in Utah, and heaven knows how many others. There is a subset of men who wish to do exactly this thing: to enslave, degrade, and abuse women.

They are a tiny minority, but the harm they do is incalculable. Stop defending them.

[lindysalsagal]

49. Some people just want a happy picture of reality, regardless of it's accuracy.

These are horrible things to know. I wish I were wrong. I fear I am not.

[Squinch]

97. But there is a less extreme but more common version:

The guy who smacks his wife around certainly believes he has some ownership. The guy who stalks the ex-girlfriend. The guy who espouses "old fashioned values" and insists his wife obeys him. There are tons of examples out there.

[heaven05]

60. excuse me

if men didn't do the bad things WE do to women, you wouldn't have to object to the truth. I didn't read any rant.

[liberalmuse]

64. It never gets old.

And it's not "anti-men". It's the god's truth! I've been around long enough to see what's what. Women are treated like shit and too many men think it's their right, and further, they get away with it. I've spent time in a woman's shelter. I've had men try to lure me in their cars and expose themselves to me. I've been yelled at and whistled at walking down the street too many times to count. I've had my ass grabbed by complete strangers. I've escaped being raped a few times. And I am no Angelina Jolie, that's for sure - I'm just a woman. Until you've lived as a woman, you really have no fucking clue what it's like and I really resent hearing any man whine about "their rights" or labeling women who simply want to be treated as human beings, not objects dismissed as launching "our crusade". It's not a crusade. We're not feminazi's. It's about human rights, human decency. Luckily, there are men who understand, and I am so grateful for them.

[freedom fighter jh]

98. +1 nt

[BlancheSplanchnik]

106. more ++++++++++ from me

You said it well. Exactly right!

[upaloopa]

111. Well I have a wife, a mother, a mother in law, sisters in law, nieces I've had lots of female

friends and relationships. I care about all of them and don't ever want them to be treated like that and I never treated anyone like that.
I care about you and feel sorry that you had to put up with what you did and probably will again. We all are not your tormentor. Most of us care about you and hate what some men do to women and hate the men themselves.

[Jamastiene]

181. Thank you.

I wish I could K&R single posts in threads.

[redqueen]

316. [phone]

[Matariki]

323. Hell yeah. You said it perfectly.

[Bjorn Against]

87. Some men are extremely controlling of women as if they owned them

I am a man and I don't see the OP as anti-men, I see it as pointing to the reality that there are men out there who do act as if they own women.

It is a real problem and if things are going to change those of us men who don't act like this need to speak out and denounce the behavior of those who do.

[lindysalsagal]

89. Thank you. I actually really enjoy men- but I know the realities of our society.

Some men really believe that an essential element in establishing their manhood requires the domination of a woman, or women.

Any woman on a dating site knows that many men are consciously seeking a mindless barbie doll who won't question them, and will validate their every thought, ahead of time, as in, before he'll even agree to meet them.
They state as much in their profiles: "I'm a really sweet, generous guy, and you can never challenge me in any way. "

I find it hard to believe that they can retain respect for any woman who would settle for that bargain ahead of time.

[hfojvt]

170. it seems anti-men to me

to claim that "such men" are so numerous that "we all know men .." not just one man, but men. We all, every single one of us know more than one man who thinks he has a right to own women, or a woman.

There are probably women out there who act as if they own men too. In fact, I met a guy in church once, and sat with his wife and his mother, and it seemed like he was afraid of his wife, and that she would not even let him speak. She did almost all of the talking and when he tried to say something, she cut him off. He was about half her size and she was talking about playing raquetball so was apparently athletic. This was just a vibe I got from spending fifteen minutes with them.

There is no shortage of people denouncing the Castros and, in fact, even beyond denouncing, they are going to prison for a long, long time, probably the rest of their lives. So I am not sure that more denouncing is gonna stop anything.

[proReality]

93. I'll introduce you to my ex, then you'll know one of them. n/t

[JanMichael]

96. Then you have had a wonderful or ignorant 76 years.

I have relatives that were tormented by other relatives that literally thought they OWNED them.

How is that cave doing? Central air must be a drag.

[upaloopa]

112. 67 not 76. You fell better saying that shit to me?

[JanMichael]

216. The fact that you live in a cave and are proud of it is astounding.

Have you once admitted how wrong you are about the "owning" mentality or do you have it yourself?

67 or 76 or 87 it matters not to me.

[upaloopa]

217. why are you such an a hole?

I never really get people like you. You don't know a thing about me and you post such nasty shit and feel superior to me!

[JanMichael]

280. I just notice you are the one cursing. "shit" "a hole" very cave like. Thanks.

While I may have seemed mean you take the cake for defensiveness like a child.

[Roland99]

194. it's the same as right-wingers railing against all muslims.

This painting with a broad brush is ridiculous.

[LWolf]

195. I have.

I do.

I'm not "anti-men," but I have known men who want to, and/or think, they "own" women.

By "own," I mean dominate and control.

[Trina]

200. You're fortunate. I'm glad for you.

It seems to me that the person ranting is you.

I don't have anything against men in general. Most of them are great. But there are exceptions, and we all know that. There are, unfortunately, many more exceptions than there should be. If we, as a society, stop sweeping it under the rug, and address it, there will be less horrible behavior, and more women unafraid to stand up for themselves and nip potential problems in the bud.

I'm 54, and I was married to a dangerously abusive man. I'm one of the lucky ones; I got out safely, in the end.

BTW, I have never posted on this site before, and don't know anyone else who's on it. I happened to look at the comments on this article, and was more than surprised at your comment. It's disappointing. I don't know if you're male or female, but people like you are part of the problem.

[wryter2000]

206. Welcome to DU

I'm so glad you got away from your abuser. That gets a lot of women killed.

[SunSeeker]

259. Powerful post. Thanks. And Welcome to DU!

[Squinch]

267. Welcome.

And I'm so glad you were able to get to safety.

[Skittles]

292. welcome to DU, Trina

[Katashi_itto]

241. WOOT! +1000000

It does get way old.

[left coaster]

278. THIS on a progressive political discussion board. I love it.

We have SOOOOOOOO far to go, don't we...


Up, I actually do spent more time at women specific issues forums, where observations and dialog regarding THE ISSUES OF HUMAN RIGHTS FOR WOMEN are not denigrated, derailed, or diminished, by ignorant people.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Most men aren't like this......but some sure as hell are.

I agree completely with you.

K&R

[DesertFlower]

19. my first husband was like that.

i cut my hair and when he came home and saw it he started to pack his bags. said "i told you to wear your hair long and off your face -- so you cut it and it's on your face". i had gone to vidal sassoon as a model. don't know if anyone remembers that cut.

he tried to control how i dressed too and also my weight. he liked the way i looked after our son was born. when i lost the weight he told me i looked terrible. go figure. i was thin when he met me.

BTW. i married him in '61 and we separated in early '67. he's now married to his 3rd wife. he's almost 73 and has a 21 year old daughter. he can't retire. i get the information from my granddaughter who has some contact with him.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

23. I didn't know you then, and I never saw your hair like that...

I'm sorry you endured that treatment.

[DesertFlower]

33. i was young when i married him -- just 19 and

i was pregnant. i thought i was "in love" but i was "in lust".

my second husband was great. never tried to control me and i was kinda wild when we met. it was '70 -- the time of "make love -- not war". i was a wild hippie chick with peace signs on my car. i had a lot of gay friends too. i calmed down because i wanted to -- not because he tried to force me too. to this day i'm still outspoken and a little "different".

[CaliforniaPeggy]

37. More power to you!

[lindysalsagal]

29. The important thing is that you got out. Good for you. It's not easy sometimes.

There are lots of Dr. Phil and drama episodes of this kind of ownership of women.

It's usually this kind of manipulation, not outright captivity. That's what I was alluding to.

I hope you're able to move on- Take care!

[DesertFlower]

43. i moved on. it was a long time ago.

he never tried to hit me. i told him "if you ever lay a hand on me -- i'll get you when you're sleeping". he knew i meant business.

[freshwest]

115. That's what I said, and they knew I meant business, too. Happy for your later happiness.

I was more violent in language, but that was the message. We saw women who were in situations, more than I'd like to say, but it was all hidden under 'family.'

[Dustlawyer]

81. You can tell the 67 year old poster you know of another story.

My younger sister had been verbally, mentally, and physically abused by her 1st husband. We (the family) did not know until he came home with 2 black eyes, broken nose, and collar bone. He had kept her prisoner in their house, not allowing her medical treatment. Finally, a friend of hers and her husband stopped by. She to was not allowed to leave but managed to escape and call us. He continued to stalk and threaten her even with a restraining order. Finally he threatened my dad and he put a stop to it. It happens all of the time unfortunately.

[lindysalsagal]

84. That's my point: This happens in many smaller ways in all of our lives.

This particular example just boggles the mind, it's so horrendous.

[freshwest]

118. I'm glad you posted this thread, and I love men... good ones.

But I have worked with men who loved talking about their desire to have women on a leash. And I've seen a lot of stuff, known of a lot of stuff, that would blight the minds of many people if I wrote them here. There are women and men who never see these things and can pretend it's not out there. And it's not a matter of race, money or social position, either. I'll stop here, before I tell a horror story or two.

[winter is coming]

92. So are some women. The abuse is more likely to be verbal and emotional rather

than physical (although that happens, too), but the damage is still horrific.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

95. You're quite right. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

5. I'm sorry that you know men like that. (nt)

[whathehell]

21. I'm sorry there are men like that. n/t

[ScreamingMeemie]

6. I am lucky in that I don't "know" any men like that. The men I have known (well enough to keep

in contact with/married to/related to) have been caring, loving decent men.

I'm not going to say that I think you should be "thrown off the board," but this is an extreme case by an obviously disturbed individual. Is that what you're hoping for???????? I don't get that comment.

It does underscore the lack of investigation into domestic violence situations. And apathy on the part of the police when it comes to certain socioeconomic areas of our cities

There is a tendency for some to do just about everything, man or woman. End story.


Some women neglect their children, as do some men.

Some teenagers do drugs.

Some neighbors are d*ckheads who should be placed on an island unto themselves.

Some teachers are irrational when it comes to turning in homework on time.

Some men are serial killers... as are some women.

etc.

[Gormy Cuss]

214. Several posters seem to be more disturbed by the OP's assertion that we all know someone like this

rather than the fact that there ARE men like this and having a discussion on what, if anything, we as a society could be doing to change their attitudes or behaviors. What you've done though is trivialize it by comparing it to teachers overreacting to late homework or people who are simply "d*ckheads" whatever that means. Trivializing domestic violence is condoning it.

[Scootaloo]

9. Once again, I have to draw exception with this sort of statement...

Some men are still in the cave man stage.

"Cave men" (whether Neandertal, Archaic, or Modern H. sapiens) almost certainly lived in small, close-knit family groups that depended on equal treatment and reciprocation in order to survive. Mistreatment was bound to lead to either hte offender facing exile (effectively a death sentence, for the most part), or for the group to split, ending up with two weak groups; one of which is harboring the aforementioned abuser and is thus worse-off than before.

They would very likely be horrified by this sort of thing. connecting these sort of assholes to the people of the Paleolithic - Mesolithic perios is frankly offensive.

Other than that, good post.

[seabeyond]

193. +1. lol. good point. it is like when we say grown men are acting like 13 yr old boys.

total insult to the boys i know. no way do they act in that manner and would be horrified.

[Scootaloo]

239. Well... that works a little better

I probably would have chopped off my pinky finger, if it meant the remaining nine would have gotten to touch breasts when I was thirteen...

[seabeyond]

250. ya. grown men saying stupid ass shit like this. nt

[Scootaloo]

264. Just saying, wasn't at my most rational at that age

I grew out of it

[seabeyond]

285. see. an interest in breast, ya. all had an interest in the other sex.

cutting off a pinky to touch, bullshit. the lets make male sexuality into incredible awesomeness that is bullshit.

[Scootaloo]

320. That's not at all what I'm doing

I'm making the point that from my own experience at least, pubescent boys do fall into the "caveman" stereotype. It's not awesome, it's damned embarrassing to look back and recall some of the dumbassed things that flitted through my brain at that age. I know a lot of men had the same problem - not all, and not all who did grew out of it apparently.

Point being, "that guy's acting like a 13 year old" probably has some validity to it. More than "acting like a caveman," probably.

[Dash87]

219. Interesting. Thanks for the info.

The cavemen and cave women had the same mental capacity as humans now. The only difference between us and them is technology and culture.

They weren't brainless animals smashing rocks together and grunting. That's a simplistic cultural myth. They communicated just like we do, but just lived in simpler and more dangerous times.

Thank you for the info. I never knew that people were exiled back then, but of course they would have been (why not?)

It probably also depended on what a group's culture was like. I would imagine some were terrible and cruel, while others weren't.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. The day I find out I know someone who thinks he deserves to own women...

is the last day I'll "know" that person.

This is the only thing that will stop men from thinking they deserve to own women, and I swear to God I'll adhere to it from now until I assume room temperature.

[BainsBane]

13. there are a lot on the web

They have entire sites devoted to that kind of thing.

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. If they're ostracized, singled out, and shunned like the monsters they are...

sooner or later there will be none of them left.

That's my hope.

[BainsBane]

18. I don't think so

I think they find like minded people on the web that encourage their behavior.

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. Okay.

I'll still live by what I said. It's all I can do.

My life won't be spent with anyone who believes he deserves to own women.

[Squinch]

100. You and others doing just that is what will minimize it.

I think a lot of men are unaware of the motivation. People pointing it out and making it unacceptable is what will change the culture for the better.

[kestrel91316]

50. Those involve voluntary dominance/submission between

willing partners. This kidnapping and enslaving is a whole 'nother ball of wax, and highly criminal.

[BainsBane]

65. There is widespread human trafficking

more people live in slavery than at anytime in human history, and most of them are women. Those predators also find contacts online.

[flamingdem]

25. Many Latin American nations permit a man to shoot and kill

his woman if he finds her with another man. All legal.

[lindysalsagal]

31. I think they're still burning women in india. Not sure.

Sharia law is alive and well, and subjects women to routine treatment just above their livestock.

This is not entirely gone from our modern society, sad to say.

[flamingdem]

32. Yes, of course, it's even worse there!

We're lucky here - in a relative way - things have progressed over other parts of the world, that's for sure.

[SemperEadem]

59. Do you mean Sati?

[lindysalsagal]

62. Right. India. I think they also still have "honor killings" in india

and possibly other places where women are de-valued.

[BainsBane]

78. Sharia law in India?

Give me a fucking break. At least consult Wikipedia.

[lindysalsagal]

79. You're the one confusing these separate examples, so, stop complaining

to me. Both societies put women down, and you're just mixing up the details.

[SemperEadem]

209. Islam does not have a custom

of burning widows at the funeral of their deceased husbands, as Hindu does. Yes, both cultures do engage in suppression of women, but what you described is not in Islam--and that was that poster's whole point.

also, while the practice still happens in the remotest of areas of that country, it is by and large against the law.

[BainsBane]

82. Then why did you put the two sentences together?

As though one followed the other? Amazing that the response to American men holding three women hostage is to wag your finger at foreign cultures. We've got no one but ourselves to blame for this one. No amount of deflection changes that fact.

[BainsBane]

108. Puerto Rico is part of the US

And they lived in Ohio for years. Jesus. Could you be more transparent?

[BainsBane]

76. really?

Like where? Cite the specific law.

[whopis01]

184. That is a false, hate-mongering, racist statement

Many Latin American Nations permit a man to shoot and kill his woman if he finds her with another man. All legal.

Haiti has such a law. It is the only country in Latin America that has such a law.

Saying that "many Latin American Nations" allow such killings is a blatant slur.

[cliffordu]

201. That part doesn't matter as long as

It slurs men.

[whopis01]

222. I don't think that was what they were trying to do - at least not specifically

based on their other posts - particularly ones that have been hidden by a jury - I think racist views against people from Latin America are definitely at the heart of these comments.

[BainsBane]

242. notice that members favorite group

is Latin America.

[Enrique]

295. where did you hear that?

from the Heritage Foundation?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

335. I think that's probably not true - what is your source? N.T.

[magical thyme]

26. I've been "work-stalked" by a few of them

and was harassed 24x7 by a registered sex offender and his gang of thugs for 3 years before I was able to simply sell everything and move out of state.

Destroyed my career in the process.

Went back to school and started over, only to be fixated on by one who has "a hard time accepting no for an answer" according to a co-worker who's kid when to school with his kid, and who knew he'd harassed another woman before me until she got married. He ended up fired for harassment, but not before he shoved me around the chemistry lab while I was alone one night trying to result 3 critical ED patients. Fortunately he moved several states away.

They really can't stand to see even a halfway-successful single woman making it on her own.

[lindysalsagal]

34. You're right: Some can't stand anyone who's their equal.

You've had a tough time. I hope you're over it and your career has gotten back on track.

Horrifying.

[Gravitycollapse]

28. Most men think women are, in some capacity, items for consumption.

Welcome to rape culture.

[lindysalsagal]

36. Women work all day and then come home and start their second job:

Shopping, cooking, cleaning, caring for children. Some men really do share these responsibilities, but many don't.

[Gravitycollapse]

40. Some men do help. Most men do not.

And even if men do help, it's often in exchange for things like sex work.

The dishes cleaned for a blow job. I shit you not. I know of a couple who does exactly that.

[Major Nikon]

135. Lots of women highly encourage that behavior

It took me a while to find someone who didn't put an embargo on their naughty bits for things totally unrelated to sex. If it isn't mutually beneficial on its own I don't see the point.

[cliffordu]

202. You know one couple that does that

So now it's "and even if men do help, it's often in exchange for sex work"

This whole OP is collapsing under the weight of outlier bullshit like this. It would be better served by fewer loopy broad brush fictions.

[Gravitycollapse]

302. Domestic sex work is not an outlier.

It is common practice that sex from the wife or girlfriend is exchanged for work from the husband or boyfriend.

[cliffordu]

306. Lemme get this right:

These women are prostitutes?

[Major Nikon]

114. Take a look at the time use surveys on the BLS website

The do show that women spend more time with domestic work than men. However, those same surveys also show that men spend about the same amount of extra time in employment related activities. Women also tend to work more in white collar jobs compared to blue collar jobs and inside work more often compared to outside work.

[upaloopa]

116. When did you develop that hypothesis? You sure as hell weren't born that way. Isn't it a bit

arrogant to say you know what most men are like? You don't even know enough men to claim the right to make a statement like that.

Even if I agreed with the OP which I don't I would say your statement is complete horse shit!

[Gravitycollapse]

117. I find it flattering you think I built such a theory of my own volition.

In reality, I've come into agreement with such a theory because of my education, understanding of society and culture and, loosely, based on personal experience.

I have a pretty good understanding of what men, as a social group, want.

[Comrade Grumpy]

220. No, it is clear that you do not. Nice to trash a whole gender, though.

[Gravitycollapse]

301. It's not clear to you because you don't agree with me. But I do have a good understanding.

A very good one, indeed.

[Major Nikon]

136. Sexist

Just sayin'

[Gravitycollapse]

138. Yeah...no. My argument is not essentialist.

Nor does it mean I think men are inferior to women; which would be sexist.

Just as saying white people subjugate minorities does not make me racist against white people.

Nice try though.

[Major Nikon]

146. Some vs "most"

If you said most white people subjugate minorities, that would be a racist statement. When you say "most" and finish with a prejudicial claim, it's not hard to find the sexism.

Just sayin'

[Gravitycollapse]

147. I dont think you know the basic definitions of those words.

And, yes, most white people do subjugate minorities in some fashion.

Methinks you need to crack open a dictionary and then crack open a textbook on history and/or anthropology and/or feminist theory.

[Major Nikon]

149. Methinks you should find other rhetorical devices besides condescension

Cheers!

[Donald Ian Rankin]

336. Untrue. N.T.

[Gravitycollapse]

338. Definitely true.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

345. I suggest you consider what the word "most" means. N.T.

[A HERETIC I AM]

30. And believe it or not, there are women who want to be "owned".

The men who think they "deserve to own women" are assholes.

But it is a fact that there are women who are not happy unless they can consider themselves the property of a man.

I know several personally.

[flamingdem]

35. But I doubt that means they want to be abused

big difference! It sounds like a way of being sure of getting financial support.

[A HERETIC I AM]

42. There is abuse and then there is something else.

Now...before I go ANY FURTHER.....I UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES condone a man being an asshole for ANY REASON.

I think most people can agree on what the criteria is for a man being an asshole.

What I am speaking of has to do with a lifestyle/sexual deviancy perspective..

And in that sense, yes, there are women who seriously get off being abused.

But it is also consensual, 100%.

There is a saying in the "community";

"Safe, Sane and Consensual"

'nuff said.

[flamingdem]

51. Oh thaaat stuff. That doesn't count, it's another

animal. I have sympathy for people who need to do S&M to feel anything, sometimes it's a tendency from childhood. But I think in another way it's very treacherous because if a person enters into that lifestyle they can literally change their brain wiring and be stuck with that modality.

[opiate69]

58. I think, though, it does count.. on this jackass` part at least..

It`s my belief this guy in Cleveland fancies himself as a "Gor" style master. Now, I`m not suggesting even the slightest hint of consent on the parts of these girls he abducted, but given some of the details which are emerging (collars, leashes, etc...) it is clear to me (as a practitioner of consentual BDSM with my wife of 14 years), there is a BDSM element here.. I`ve been poking around Fetlife trying to see if I can find a profile for him since I`d bet money he`s into "the lifestyle" in some capacity. So far no luck, but if he had a profile it may have been scrubbed by the admins or otherwise taken offline by the authorities by now.

[BainsBane]

268. What do you suppose makes someone go to that level?

Do you think someone can start on a consensual level and go over the edge?
Or he is a just a predator uses BDSM as an excuse?

[opiate69]

270. Honestly, I think both are possible.

Without knowing more about this particular case, it's tough to speculate, but just to kind of think out loud for a second here ... it wouldn't surprise me if at some point he had a consenting partner. Maybe Ms. Knight? Maybe the as yet unidentified 4th woman? Or somebody else altogether? Just lots of variables still to be sussed out.. but remember, it's not unheard of.. I seem to recall a case from a couple years ago where a couple were working together abducting girls to turn into sex slaves.. but anyway, as far as Castro goes, I suspect he could have started legitimately enough, but his addiction or whatever we wantbto call it spun out of control. Or conversely, he may have always been a predator in waiting, and found the BDSM community to be a good place to kind of hide out and plot out his fantasy life. Of course, he also may not have anything to do with BDSM, but from the little details I've been hearing, I would be seriously surprised if he wasn't.

[BainsBane]

273. he had a dungeon set up

Chains, leashes, etc. Seems to me he probably was.

I was wondering if he might have been involved in human trafficking with the babies or other girls, but the police haven't said anything like that.

[opiate69]

276. Yeah.. which is why I've been trying to poke around Fetlife...

Haven't found anything yet though.. although they're quick to scrub pages like that (unless its the police doing it...) For example, a woman from my local community was arrested last week for murder (met her twice.. kinda creeped my wife and I out) and within a couple days her profile was gone...

[BainsBane]

282. Who did she kill?

What was the story?

[opiate69]

283. her former therapist/lover.... very weird case...

http://www.theolympian.com/2013/05/02/2530318/accused-killer-had-moved-in-with.html

[BainsBane]

291. Wow

good thing your instincts and those of your wife are better than that shrink's.
Strange article though because it engages in a lot of victim blaming. Obviously the guy wasn't a responsible mental health professional, but I don't see why they should devote so much attention to that in an article about his murder.

[opiate69]

307. Yeah.. there`s a lot about the reporting that leaves a bunch to be desired..

Although, that was a follow-up artcle so they were reporting a lot of the weird shit surrounding the case.. anyway, so yeah.. back in November, we were at a play party at our local "dungeon", and we were sitting around the campfire talking with some friends and she came over and sat down in the chair next to me.. I think she may have bumned a cigarette off me.. in any case, it wasn`t like "man, this woman seems like she might kill somebody", but she was kinda constantly staring at me, and had that air of just.. being in her own little world.. didn`t really acknowlege my wife... was just "off".. Watched her do some "topping" of this other woman who was there... seemed like she had experience as a Domme.. then, few weeks later, we were there again for a private cards & karaoke party and she was there with a guy who I think was the victim here.. I don`t remember exactly why, but he was creeping my wife out big time. And this would have been right around the same time frame that the victim was fired by BHR.. We didn`t have anything to do with them at that party or after, but I did see her profile on Fetlife.. she identified as a Domme who was into, among other things, knife-play... she also had a degree in music and was apparently a good violinist.. I have a bunch of theories about the circumstances behind his death, but I think it best to keep them out if the public forum.. I don`t know if the investigators have figured out her involvement in the "scene", but it doesn`t sound like they`re going to have any problems prosecuting her.. just fucking bizarre...

[BainsBane]

312. Creepy

I bet you all are glad you didn't get to know her better.

I knew a killer myself, a student who took three or four classes from me. He used me as a reference for an application to the border patrol. A federal agent game to interview me about him. I recall saying what a nice young man he was, how he seemed so "even keeled." I must have said "even keeled" three times. Several months later, he took his ex-girlfriend hostage, killed her parents, and then shot himself after a several hour-long standoff with SWAT. Suffice it to say I'm not a good judge of character. Of course I had no contact with him outside of class and running him to him on campus to chat a bit. But still.

[opiate69]

314. Yup.. it`s a crazy little world we have here, innit?

Goes to show, you never do know what "demons" lurk behind a persons facade.

[opiate69]

318. Also.. just for old times sake, here's an accounting of another now-convicted murderer whom I knew..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3152368

[BainsBane]

324. Life takes strange turns

There but for the grace of . . . whatever.

[cliffordu]

207. This is really a bogus posit

You have my undying gratitude for proving to me that I have erred in taking you seriously at all. I'll not make that mistake again.

[lindysalsagal]

38. Sad to say, I think you're right. Not gonna be me.

[A HERETIC I AM]

45. And that's fine.

No self respecting man would dare cross that line with you.

And if one does, me and CherokeeProgressive will kick his ass into next week for ya.

[lindysalsagal]

47. Everyone needs a good Heretic in their corner!

[kestrel91316]

52. Those women are called Republicans, and they probably all

believe the bible is literally true down to the last letter.

[lindysalsagal]

55. Judeo-christian tradition begins with Mary as a prostitute and Eve a greedy corruptor.

And then it gets bad for women, after that........

[NealK]

228. Mary was a prostitute?

WTF?

[lindysalsagal]

303. Mary Magdalene. Interesting, how she and his mother are both Marys....

But that discussion would only be allowed on the religion thread.

[A HERETIC I AM]

66. Actually, 2 of the 4 women that I said I knew....

are Atheistic liberal humanists.

So....so much for that theory.

[JI7]

152. i don't see how anyone with those views can be considered liberal

[lumberjack_jeff]

39. I think this part is intriguing.

I know you're all going to jump all over this thread with "Well, my husband sure isn't like that so you should be thrown off the board."

This suggests that you either only expect pushback from women, or consider women's opinion the only kind worth considering.

Men have no monopoly on viewing the opposite sex as having only utilitarian value.

[Gravitycollapse]

41. It is precisely the case that men have such a monopoly.

[jeff47]

63. No, it's not a monopoly.

There are women who want to utterly control men too. I divorced one.

There's fewer controlling women for various reasons, but they exist.

[Gravitycollapse]

69. It is a monopoly. Your ex wife does not negate that fact.

[jeff47]

72. So you're saying I need to link the definition of monopoly? (nt)

[Gravitycollapse]

83. You can if you'd like. Although it won't help you.

Men do hold a monopoly over the commodification of sexuality. A monopoly does not necessitate a literal total absence of exception. It means that men hold exclusive control over the production of such commodification. There will be cases of women who do treat men as sex objects. But these are the exceptions and likely are women who's obsession with owning men sexually is informed by male sexual ownership.

And they pale in comparison to the systemic commodification of female sexuality by men and for men. By pale I mean they are so relatively insignificant as to be essentially no different, to the system, from not existing at all.

[jeff47]

86. Apparently you need me to provide different links then

Men do hold a monopoly over the commodification of sexuality

K, "Men for Women" ads from Backpage.com coming right up.

A monopoly does not necessitate a literal total absence of exception.

Actually, it does for it to actually be a monopoly. If you want to claim a majority, or even a strong majority, that doesn't carry the same burden.

There will be cases of women who do treat men as sex objects.

If you think sex is the only component of a relationship, then you need some help.

But thanks for telling me I don't exist. I hear you women love it when people do that.

[Gravitycollapse]

91. Wrong. A monopoly means exclusive control over _____

As an example, a monopoly over the production of cigarettes means that the industry is controlled exclusively by one company or cartel. But there still may exist very small groups of individuals that produce cigarettes on an incredibly small scale. Kind of like corporate breweries vs home brewers; although that example would conventionally be referred to as an oligopoly.

My point being that the monopoly I've been to referring to does not necessitate the total absence of women like your ex.

[galileoreloaded]

74. he he he, you gotta hell of a lesson coming i think.

all relationships are conditional.

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. Yes. Conditional and transactional.

Color me cynical.

[Bonobo]

160. Funny then that men don't feel it is normal to carry around

plastic vaginas.

Talk about reducing men to their body parts and objectifying.

[galileoreloaded]

215. ah the tragedy of youth

fortunately, it tends to work itself out

[cliffordu]

309. +1

[lindysalsagal]

44. No. I just know that any good DU thread comes with personal threats.

There are women who get married largely so they can sue later for alimony. In some states the courts really discriminate against the men, like mine. Awful state for a man to get divorced.

[lumberjack_jeff]

203. To the extent that "the patriarchy" is a thing...

It is a set of cultural expectations growing from one central principle: protect the women, but especially your women because their lives are more precious than yours. The objectionable bits of sexist society are all symptoms of that central assumption.

Unfortunately, the core thing is an unassailable third rail of gender politics.

How big of a leap is it really, that men who accept their culturally-imposed responsibility to the wellbeing of the women in their proximity, interpret that responsibility as a mandate to override the women's self-determination? Anti-choicers generally think they are doing it to protect you from the consequences of a poor decision.

All relationships are transactional and conditional to one degree or another, even in healthy relationships. Everything else is a matter of valuation. If one thinks they are all that and a bag of chips, then they feel justified in demanding more of whatever convinced them to marry their partner.

[CreekDog]

330. you use women in a utilitarian way. whenever an issue is posted that negatively affects women...

you use them to advance men's rights.

[lumberjack_jeff]

332. Whatever. You're talking to a voice command, self-propelled bottle opener. n/t

[Zavulon]

68. Why not just get a job with the GOP?

Making generalizations based on a number of bad apples is no different than what I see when Republicans act as if all blacks are criminals (except for those with a job, even though they obviously only got those jobs thanks to Affirmative Action) and as if all Hispanics are here illegally. Reading your bullshit post made me sick.

[Gravitycollapse]

73. No one here is claiming all men think they own women.

Your comparison is unfortunate and inaccurate. I can unpack it for you or you can just agree with me. Either way...

[lindysalsagal]

77. Exactly: Some believe they deserve to own women, but few take these steps to make it actually happen

But if I posted that the sky is blue, they'd have to argue that, too.

[Major Nikon]

137. Not all, just most

I believe that was the claim.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2811772

Just sayin'

[Gravitycollapse]

140. Yes, in some capacity, most men think they possess women.

Not is not to say all. And it is not to say that most men think they literally have ownership over a woman.

It means that most men consider themselves to be some sort of authority over women and their movement and actions.

[Major Nikon]

148. Sounds more like a non sequitur

I'm not convinced you could even begin to support your last assertion as anything other than your opinion, but even if you could it doesn't mean anything close to the first. The state has authority over you. That doesn't mean they own you.

[Gravitycollapse]

150. They have no authority over me that I do not allow under informed consent.

To express involuntary authority over me and my actions, to restrain me against my will and to force me to commit actions, would be a form of slavery and thus a form of ownership.

Do you understand the difference? Women do not give consent for men, individually or socially, to possess authority over them or their actions.

[Major Nikon]

157. I don't understand either statement

Informed consent of state authority only exists collectively. The state can and does exercise authority over individuals with or without their consent.

Women can and do give consent to men for authority. The same is true of the reverse. Whether they do or not does not imply slavery.

[LittleBlue]

163. Sure they do

Try breaking the law, I guarantee they can arrest and charge you with or without your consent. Even crimes that you never gave consent to become law, like abortion restrictions or pot possession.

[tclambert]

70. It's practically official policy for Republicans.

They oppose abortion, contraceptives, equal pay for equal work, and gender equality in general. They opposes the right of women to vote. (They seldom admit it now, but many of them still oppose voting rights.)

[adieu]

85. We have the new president of the NRA stating

that "...it's only a matter of time before we can own colored people again"

Here's the [link:http://www.freewoodpost.com/2013/05/05/nra-president-jim-porter-its-only-a-matter-of-time-before-we-can-own-colored-people-again/|

[Hell Hath No Fury]

88. Satire --

not a real quote.

[adieu]

145. I got Poe'd? Really?

[nomorenomore08]

262. I believe you did. Thankfully.

Because I certainly felt my chest tighten for a half-second when I saw that. Now I feel relieved.

[Jamastiene]

191. Snopes says that is false.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/jimporter.asp

[Throd]

90. Utter horseshit. I have never known anyone like that.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but I have never known one.

[NRaleighLiberal]

94. K&R. I do know men who think this way. It is disgusting and unacceptable.

[freshwest]

143. Thank you.

[LittleBlue]

101. I don't know any men who think they own women

We all know men who think they deserve to own women

Not all of us, apparently. Find some new acquaintances.

[Douglas Carpenter]

104. I'm probalby not as with it as a lot of progressive men - I admit that I have had a tendency to piss

off some Feminist with what they think is my lack of insight. But on this matter you are absolutely right. There is an impulse at work on the darker side of male consciousness that feels an entitlement over those they are in relationship with. I have even seen it with otherwise politically leftwing men. It's probably such an ancient and deeply rooted and undeniably primitive impulse that many men do not even know they have it. Just as most women who accept that kind of dominance do not consciously realize what it is they are accepting.

[upaloopa]

113. I wonder where you got your social science degree? We are all not made from some chemical formula

with a dark side of consciousness.

[Douglas Carpenter]

123. if you REALLY don't know ANY men who feel that way - you do need to learn about life

67 years of not observing the world around you is wasting a lot of living.,

[Gravitycollapse]

120. It is neither ancient nor impulsive. It is a product of socialization.

And a fairly recent product at that.

[Douglas Carpenter]

124. at least since the rise of the agrarian era - as far as pre-history we don't know

This has been the cultural expectation for at least the last several thousand years for most - but not all societies. The idea of pre-agrarian society being some kind of nonviolent and nonsexist Garden of Eden - the evidence simply does not support that

[Gravitycollapse]

127. Agrarian era? Are you referring to the rise of agriculture? Or Agrarianism?

Because Agrarianism is a fairly new movement.

[Douglas Carpenter]

151. when humans started organizing Agriculture in the Fertile Crescent and in the Southern Arabian

Peninsula somewhere around 6000+ years ago. How much of male aggression is nature and how much is socialization it is difficult to say. But we do know that 80% to 90% of dog attacks are from unneutered male dogs. And as strange as it may sound 80% to 90% of violent human attacks are from the equivalent of unneutered male humans - or in actuality humans between puberty and their early 40's when testosterone production drops significantly. It has been known by science for a long time that when male humans between puberty and their early 40's are either castrated or chemically altered so that their bodies ceases to produce testosterone - the tendency toward aggression and violence falls dramatically. Socialization is of course a factor in male aggression and the establishment of patriarchal male dominated societies - but there does appear to be a major biological factor as well.

[Gravitycollapse]

156. Wow, so much absurdity in one post.

[Douglas Carpenter]

171. there is such a thing as critical thinking and recognizing that causes and effects are complex

but if you are more comfortable embracing a belief system than with examining evidence and embracing reason - then fine if that is what gives you comfort. You would have made a good Marxist-Leninist or Fundamentalist Protestant.

"Those who can think - think. Those who cannot think - believe."

[Gravitycollapse]

305. The absurdity in your post lies in the false belief that male violence is innate.

Or that studies regarding aggression with dogs has absolutely any thing to do with human beings.

You espouse essentialist garbage. And it is exactly those types of arguments that are used to further the "case" that men are just naturally abusers and rapists because of their genitalia. Which is utter bullshit.

My point being that the act of sexual assault is very rarely driven by sexual desire. It is about the expression of power and control through the sexual act. If you simply remove the sexual component, you do nothing to treat or eliminate the psychological drive towards power and control.

"Treating the symptom." There is no evidence that testosterone levels are linked to an offenders urge to commit sexual assault. If elevated testosterone levels were the cause, than anyone with elevated testosterone levels would exhibit tendencies towards sexual violence. Which, of course, they do not. Read what I'm saying: Elevated testosterone levels may express a higher libido. But elevated libido has nothing to do with one's tendency toward sexual violence.

There is nothing innate about abusive behaviors. In fact, there is all the evidence in the world that such behavior is learned and, ultimately, a product of cultural influence.

But go ahead and keep telling me about dog gonads.

[Douglas Carpenter]

311. of course it is not innate in the sense that it cannot be and should not be controlled. If that

were the case there would be a hell of a lot more male aggression then there is already. Humans do have considerably more cognitive abilities than other animals when it comes to controlling their lower biological impulses. There simply is a strong biological component in male aggression. . There is an obvious connection between aggression and the male sexual drive in most animals including humans. Understanding that can help find ways to control and direct it. The idea that male aggression can be treated only successfully by convincing men to adopt an ideological position is simply not going to work. And incidentally - there has been a great deal of research that shows that reversible chemical castration does not only decrease the tendency of the sex offender to commit sexual oriented crimes - but also a significant drop in other crimes - from burglary to simple assault. Some have suggested that monitored reversible chemical castration is a viable voluntary alternative to prison - not only for sex offenders but other aggressive repeat offenders. Both conservatives and liberals have tended to object for different reasons. Liberals tend to object on what is seen as humanitarian grounds. But when considering the utter inhumanity of several years in prison and being aware of horrible prisons life is - I personally think it would be the more humane alternative and one that seems to usually work. And it certainly works better than either prison or attempting to ideologically change the violent offender.

[galileoreloaded]

341. whoa sparky. check yourself.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022812195#post2

Your words "Masculinity is inherently violent."

[Gravitycollapse]

342. Those two statements are not mutually exclusive.

[galileoreloaded]

343. in prose or in intent?

be honest....

[Gravitycollapse]

344. In logic. Learned responses can be inherently wrong.

Sociopaths are a great example.

[smirkymonkey]

293. I agree. I have dated a lot of "nice", progressive men, but as the

relationship went on, I always felt like they were trying to get me under their thumb and control my behavior. I never let it get very far. I usually broke up with them because I absolutely felt suffocated by anyone trying to control or manipulate me. It didn't feel very caring or loving.

Of course, they were usually baffled that I wanted to break up with them because they didn't think there was anything wrong. I couldn't really explain it to them because I don't think they even knew what they were doing at the time.

[Triana]

105. Some polyamorists too.

And I'm not knocking polyamory in and of itself, but I DO KNOW from experience that abusers hide out in those circles as well. It's oh-so-convenient and so much easier for them to hide their abuse (verbal, emotional, physical, financial), in such circles than it is in regular society -- and they do.

[Karia]

121. We all probably know men like that but may not be aware of it

A friend of ours used to be married to one and we had no idea until she escaped. He is a physician, white, upper middle class, highly respected, and charming.

[Jenoch]

128. "We all know men who think they deserve to own women..."

What kind of men do you associate with? We don't know any men like that. We know a few asshats, but none that believe as you believe.

[Squinch]

269. Statistically, you probably know at least one wife who is physically abused by her husband.

So you probably do know a man like that. You just don't recognize it.

[Jenoch]

287. I am sure that is true.

I think the OP is painting with a briad brush and seems to be implicating all men in the tone of her writing.

[Squinch]

289. And yet, the OP didn't say that her words applied to all men. And you have just agreed that,

indeed, we all DO know men like that.

So it seems you are reading that meaning in "tone."

[Jenoch]

294. I got that tone

after reading the entire thread.

[Squinch]

298. So your point of disagreement is the tone.

[JackN415]

130. Not in case. My ex harrasses me, continues to e-mail, text,... despite my best effort

to tell her that I would never want to see, be contacted, or be reminded of her in this life and the next. Pathological obsession is equal for both genders. A lot of betty brodericks out there.

I think I know more women who think they own their men than vice versa.

[JackN415]

132. Women who think they own their men...

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18559_162-57522405/my-dads-killer-a-daughters-journey-for-justice/

Go to a group of divorced men and you will find how many possessive women out there.

[Bonobo]

161. Indeed the expectation that a man will work

is perhaps one of the greatest examples.

Work to support me -although less and less common -is still, by and large, a feeling that women have of their men and not the reverse.

[Gormy Cuss]

296. "Work to support me" came from the attitude "don't work because I will support you."

Fortunately, that notion has pretty much died off except in some conservative circles.

[BainsBane]

165. Right, because that's just like

being locked in a basement for ten years.

[JackN415]

175. Citing a single anecotal case to make a point is the most ignorant way to...

start a discussion. You mentioned imprisonment for 10 years, but didn't address cases like Betty Brodrerick or Jodi Arias & many other scorn women who murdered, hounded, harassed their ex-husbands. In my case, cops had to intervene and force my-ex to leave my property several times.

Point is: pathological psychopaths are equal in gender. Bashing only men is absolutely ignorant and stupid.

Only loser men try to control their women. For many other men with economic means, they are the ones being hunted and manipulated by women a la "Sex and The City" type.

[BainsBane]

176. The point wasn't people doing stupid or criminal things

It was treating women as property. To pretend that men are equally victims of that sort of crime is deliberately distorting reality in an effort to minimize violence against women. There are more people enslaved currently in the world at any point in human history and the majority are women held as sex slaves. When males are owned, they are minors. Your false equivalency is dishonest and offensive.

It's not bashing men to address reality. It is, however, nothing short of fraudulent to pretend any kind of equivalency in violent crimes period, let alone enslavement. Crime statistics make that clear. To pretend otherwise is to diminish reality.

That someone suggests an irritating ex wife is the same as owning another human being is nothing short of disgusting.

[JackN415]

189. It's you who wrongfully misinterprete what I wrote. non-sequitur in your thinking and logic.

[BainsBane]

246. You responding to an OP talking about

men who seek to own women by whining about you ex wife. I've got an ex husband too, and he was a jerk, but I'm wouldn't for a second equate his criminal activity with slavery, human trafficking, or ownership of others. I'm not nearly so self absorbed to think my experiences share any parallel with that level of suffering. Moreover, your effort to fabricate a false equivalency between men and women as perpetrators of such crimes is dishonest at best.

[BainsBane]

180. there is no gender equality in criminal psychopaths

That is an absurdly fraudulent claim. What kind of game do you think you're playing? Do you honestly think people are so stupid they have no sense of crime statics?

Sexual assaults: http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/victims-perpetrators.htm

Men commit 87.9% of all homicides. http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/rape-sexual-violence/victims-perpetrators.htm

Your ex harassing you bears no relation to being owned by another person, being enslaved, as occurs with millions of women every year. http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/what_is_modern_slavery.aspx

[JackN415]

187. There is gender equality in non-criminal pyschopaths. It doesn't have to be criminal to cause...

unhappiness. Psychopathy is a human trait relating to the structure in brain.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16712954

What kind of game do you play?

[Lady Freedom Returns]

133. Some are.

And sadly, I have know some. My father was a huge believer that he owned my Mother.


My SO and I have gone a few rounds in the last ten years about our equality. We are in the middle of a fight about this as I type!

I end up having to point out, verbatim if you will, what he is doing.

Sometimes I wonder if some of the guys that seem to think they own women really just don't realize what they are doing/acting. They just need it pointed out so they can correct the thinking.

Just my two cents....

[KitSileya]

134. Fortunately, this is not so prevalent in Northern Europe,

but that doesn't mean that it's been eradicated, far from it. 2/3 of all women who are shot to death in the US are killed by men they were or are in a relationship with. One of the most dangerous time for a woman in an abusive relationship is when she gets pregnant, and my theory is that it is because the man is jealous of the rival baby. The other trigger point is, of course, when she leaves him. That needs no explanation.

Men holler at women who walk past them, they shout comments on their looks, tell them to smile, initiate conversations despite women's clear body language saying they want to be left alone. In other words, women are there to satisfy men, there for men's viewing pleasure, for men to hit on.

How many cases of men who have kept women prisoners have come up these past years, and everyone's been absolutely shocked, shocked I tell you? They were such nice men, with jobs, friendly with their neighbors, respected in their community. They're not always the weirdos in the basements, those on the fringe of society, not that some aren't. But while the profile on these predators most often has one thing in common - they're men. Thank goodness they're an absolute minority of men, but it all springs out of a culture that says getting caught raping is worse than being raped (Steubenville), that women wanting to control their own bodies is wrong (birth control, abortion, abstinence education), that men who don't participate in this culture are women-like or gay (p*ssies and the like).

[XVI_Eyes]

142. Some do.

But plenty of women feel entitled to complete control of their husbands, and are ok with physically but more often (and more visciously) verbally abusing them. They see Their husbands as income and labor.

Why don't we just use a more accurate statement instead of attacking genders:

Some people are assholes, no gender requirement.

[JackN415]

174. +1 n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

144. Guys who get mail order brides seem to be controlling.

They can't handle American women, because we go to college and work outside the home. We are too uppity.


My sister's ex was controlling. He once told her that he would put his income in the bank and they would live on her salary.

He eventually married an Asian woman. They want to be waited on. Once I went to my sister's house when she was married to this jerk. Our family friend came over to visit. Our friend was a Rice University graduate and a female attorney. We sat around the kitchen table and talked. Mr. Jerk reacted by going in the den and sitting there and pouting. He really could not stand smart women.



They are tea party/libertarian/conservative evangelical types.

[davidn3600]

158. That's not the complaints I've heard from such men

This is what I've heard from such men that get brides from overseas:
1. American women are out of shape
2. American women only care about a man's bank account and are too expensive to keep happy
3. Foreign women are more "family-oriented."
4. Just more interesting to interact with someone from another culture/race
5. Foreign women take marriage more seriously than American women

These are NOT my opinions, by the way. So don't trash the messenger. I'm just listing what guys have said and what I've read over the years.

I'll tell you this though...considering all the male friends I've ever had, when they talk about women... the biggest complaint is #2 on that list. That women are too expensive to keep happy. And A LOT of men think women put "income" and the guy's career at the top of the list for their desires in a mate. Whether it is true or not, most guys out there think you have to have money to woo a girl. That's why we call our cars, "chick magnets."

And by the way...are you suggesting that foreign women can't be smart?

[geek tragedy]

198. Men who get 'mail order brides' are pathetic scum.

With virtually zero exceptions. They exemplify the attitude of men who think women are chattel who can be ordered through a catalog.

So, of course they're going to conjure up some self-serving myths to justify their behavior.

[davidn3600]

237. Isnt that the way any dating works though?

One thing is that women dont ask men out (9 out of 10 times women will not make the first move). She may flirt, but men do the asking out. So men have that advantage. Men tend to begin every relationship with the dominant upper hand.

So whether it's browsing through photos in an online dating site or he's scanning the women that are at a bar or school class or anywhere, he's picking and choosing the girl likely based on some pretty shallow criteria. And women sometimes tend to judge a man in shallow ways as well, but have a different list of priorities.

There was a documentary about all this some time ago, I think on National Geographic or Discovery, where they were talking about the science behind human attraction and dating. It was quite interesting. It's become sort of a mix between our instincts and social demands to fit into certain roles. Humans are very social creatures. We believe in safety in numbers. So fitting in to society is important because we want to belong with everyone. That's why we are willing to yield to things like social gender roles.

And feminists are finding that breaking through these gender roles is more difficult than previously thought.

[geek tragedy]

238. Dating works by two people meeting and interacting in a social setting.

It doesn't involve one person ordering the other through a catalog as if they were a bistro table or vacuum cleaner.

That's human trafficking.

[davidn3600]

243. Which is online dating, isn't it?

Many people have met through that kind of dating. Are you saying that is human trafficking?

"mail order bride" is a bad term to use because it's not done that way. At least not these days. In most situations, these foreign dating agencies are really not much different than eharmony or match.com here in America. There are online profiles people can search through. They then begin to interact through the internet. If things progress, they eventually meet.

[geek tragedy]

245. The men are the customers, the women are the product. That's how the business model

works.

It's human trafficking that barely manages to jump through the legal hurdles.

[davidn3600]

272. You are ignoring the question

Are all matchmaking services human trafficking services? Is that what you are saying?

[geek tragedy]

274. Ones that treat men and women as equals, no.

Ones that don't allow men to 'order' a woman from overseas, no.

Ones that don't facilitate the cross-border movement of women, financed by a man, no.

[allGoodThings]

204. that is certainly what they say

and it makes them feel better than just saying that they can't deal with women as equals and need to be in a controlling position.

And I am not talking about any guy who marries a foreign women. I am talking specifically about those who seek out "mail order brides". And of course, not 100% of them either - but the majority that I have come across.

It has little to do with foreign women being different - it has to do with women in a vulnerable position. If they come here and get married - that marriage is the only thing allowing them to remain here. The husband doesn't have that constraint - that puts him in a great position of power over the woman.

So of course these women are going to go out of their way to keep their husband happy by (1) staying in shape, (2) not upsetting him about money issues, (3) seeking the same 'family values' as their husband, and (5) taking marriage more seriously.

And any man who refers to his car as a "chick magnet" is definitely telling you a lot about what he thinks of women.


And I understand that you are just the messenger here - so no need to think these thoughts are directed to you - they are directed to the message.

[LittleBlue]

162. I'm marrying a Japanese girl

Not a mail-order bride situation, we met through a mutual friend. She's very intelligent, Japan has some of the top education scores in the world. And no bad spending habits, no boring rambling stories beginning with "then I said, then she said, then I said..."

Luckily my fiancee came along right as I was starting to get jaded with the whole thing. No reason people should have to settle for a spouse and end up miserable when we can find what we want abroad.

[Matariki]

326. Wow. Just wait til she finds out how 'charming' you are.

"when we can find what we want abroad" - you might not have ordered your 'Japanese girl' via the mail, but you sure do have a consumerist attitude to women. I'll bet good money your marriage won't last 3 years with that attitude.

[LittleBlue]

327. You're off base there

Just wait til she finds out how 'charming' you are.

We've been dating for over a year, she knows who I am. Japan is a well developed, wealthy country. She had always wanted to live in the US and is studying here now.

I'll bet good money your marriage won't last 3 years with that attitude.

Japan and east Asia in general are much different than here. They don't seem to subscribe to the outrage culture like anglophone countries. From my experience, a statement like the one that offended you would not elicit a raised eyebrow in Japan.

[Matariki]

333. So, if you are not thinking of your 'Japanese girl' as a commodity

Last edited Thu May 9, 2013, 06:10 PM - Edit history (3)

why do you feel the need to refer to her ethnicity in a thread about the objectification of women, or call her a 'girl' for that matter? I'm assuming she's older than 12, correct?

As far as 'outrage culture' - that's what misogynists and racists always call the reaction to their misogyny and racism.

You could really use some self reflection, but I kind of doubt you think you need it. No doubt you think the problem is with us uppity American women.

This part-Chinese woman thinks the stereotypes you're expounding are tedious.

[LittleBlue]

337. It is nice that you are so bothered by this

that you went to the trouble of creating two posts laden with insults.

why do you feel the need to refer to the ethnicity in a thread about the objectification of women

Look at the post to which I replied.

or call her a 'girl' for that matter?

It is a common term of endearment used toward someone younger where I'm from, similar to diminutives in other languages. "Woman" is very formal term for such a close person who is younger than me.

As far as 'outrage culture' - that's what misogynists and racists always call the reaction to their misogyny and racism.

So are you calling me a misogynist and a racist? Or just one?

You could really use some self reflection, but I kind of doubt you think you need it.

It took you all of 2 posts to insinuate racism, misogyny and explicitly state my marriage will fail within 3 years. You can't make such outlandish statements and expect people to take your suggestions seriously. Even if someone did actually need self-reflection, the hostility in your writing would make them think otherwise.

I'm part Chinese and find guys that think and talk like you to be tedious, predictable, racist dorks.

Then it's a fortunate thing I found a woman who loves a tedious, predictable, racist dork. Ta!

[Matariki]

339. It seems that your post was meant to bother and offend, so mission accomplished, I guess.

Last edited Thu May 9, 2013, 07:43 PM - Edit history (1)

And yes I think you are being both sexist and racist.

Saying "when we can find what we want abroad" in reference to a life partner smacks of a shopping excursion. Treating women like something you pick up while travelling abroad is a sexist commoditization of women. Calling grown women 'girls' is sexist. Thinking that Asian women will somehow make you happier than American women because of stupid stereotypes is racist.

[RedCappedBandit]

154. Many *people* don't value human beings. People express such a mentality differently..

on an individual basis.

[Inkfreak]

329. Agreed wholeheartedly!!! N/T

[Apophis]

155. Hyperbole much?

[JackN415]

177. Criminal men imprisoned their women by locking them up. I was a male victim

of imprisonment also.

I was tied up with what known as the "knot", and was institutionalized in what legally called "marriage" for 20 years until making my escape.

Right now, I know a few ladies who want to institutionalize me again!!!

(If you have no sense of humor and get offended - don't reply.)

[99Forever]

192. The broadbrush attacks on men..

.. by a few man-hating radicals that spread their personal hatred here, are discouraging. In my almost 60 years on this planet, I have known any number of jerks and assholes of both genders, but not a single one that ever expressed that they wanted "own" another human being. Not. A. Single. One. Ever.

[Arugula Latte]

224. Gee, big surprise that they didn't "express" that.

It's not something most people would broadcast. Thus all the secrecy like with these three nutbag brothers.

It's not just "man-hating radicals" pointing out that women in this society are largely treated like shit. Ask almost any women on this board for her stories and you'll get an earful of anedotes about being harrassed by men, grabbed by men, raped by men, verbally abused by men, physically abused by men, demeaned by men, and on and on. I know I could contribute plenty to that conversation.

[99Forever]

231. Nice jump to light speed you've got there.

I guess the next time a woman does something really illegal and shitty, oh say like murdering all of her children, you won't have any problem generalizing it to the whole gender also, right?

[Arugula Latte]

244. So you and most men on DU have stories of their children being murdered by women?

Do tell.

[99Forever]

248. Enjoy.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/05/15/11716702-florida-mother-kills-4-children-then-herself-deputies-say?lite

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2225207/Felicia-Boots-Postnatally-depressed-mother-killed-14-month-old-daughter-10-week-old-son-face-prison.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/moscow-mom-kills-kids-throwing-15th-floor-balcony-article-1.1101863

http://www.dnj.com/article/20130508/NEWS01/305080050/Murfreesboro-mother-charged-felony-murder-child

http://perezhilton.com/2013-02-06-denver-shooting-two-young-children-murdered-one-adult-killed-another-child-injured-gun-violence#.UYqzX8ocM3g

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Smith

Want some more? I barely scratched the surface.

[Scout]

255. those are all DUers, huh?

gee, who'da thunk?

non-responsive to the actual question! but typical.

[99Forever]

256. I dunno.

Were the kidnappers in Cleveland DUers?

(And btw, what the fuck does that bullshit have to do with ANYTHING?)

[Arugula Latte]

261. Yeah, you missed the point.

I'm talking about the universality of women being assaulted and harassed and grabbed by men. It has happened to almost all of us here on DU, meaning it has happened to almost every female. Almost all of us have been some combination of the following: yelled at on the street, grabbed and groped in bars or other public places, date raped, non-date raped, demeaned by men at work, hit by men. And so on.

Women murdering children? Yes, it happens. Very, very rarely.

[Arugula Latte]

265. You lost so you resort to the Teabagger insult.

I didn't move the goalposts -- I was perfectly consistent.

Here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1188005

[Scout]

277. what the fuck it has to do with ANYTHING is that was the subject of the post you replied to.

bold emphasis mine

Ask almost any women on this board for her stories and you'll get an earful of anedotes about being harrassed by men, grabbed by men, raped by men, verbally abused by men, physically abused by men, demeaned by men, and on and on. I know I could contribute plenty to that conversation.

reading for comprehension, and replying to what was actually said, rather than trying to score cheap points with the other kids might help you get along.

[99Forever]

286. News flash:

The world outside of "DU" is actually more important that the"world" inside of it.

Your "point" is ridiculous and trivial nonsense.

[Scout]

297. you don't even have a point now

no one said the DU was more important "that" the real world.

nevertheless, the subset of the real world population that posts here at DU was the subject that was being discussed, you fucked up in your post, you've been called out on it, and now you're trying to cover with bluster and fake superiority.

[JackN415]

249. You know what? My ex used to talk like some posters replying to you here...

and I don't know whether her non-sequitur absurdity was brilliant "Month Python"-style humor or SNL Gilda Radner's soliloquy or something serious. I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry

[99Forever]

252. I just think they need to ...

.. find a better social circle to associate in. If the men around them act like would have us believe, they've got some pretty lousy tastes in friends and lovers.

[Common Sense Party]

258. I have to agree on this issue. Anyone who knows a troglodyte, misogynistic woman-owner

should really seek a different group of acquaintances. One is sometimes known by the company he keeps.

[Scout]

279. why do you assume they don't now have a different group of acquaintances?

stating you know a person like that does not mean one still, or ever was, closely associated with them.

[Common Sense Party]

281. I don't believe I did assume that. If a woman-owning cave man is among your acquaintances or social

circle, get new friends. That's all I said.

[Whisp]

284. why are you so upset?

it really shows in your manner of speaking, you are very angry. What did anyone from DU do to you? You don't like women speaking their minds and sharing personal stories about their lives? Why? Why the defensiveness. Why do you think we are accusing you of anything?

The only thing I could accuse you of is 'you are mad, bro.'

[99Forever]

288. Upset?

Are you some sort of internet psychic or what?

I'm not the only one who sees thru the broadbrush man-bashing that goes on here. Sorry if it upsets you that we won't just knuckle under and take it.

[Whisp]

290. take what?

what are you talking about? It wasn't 3 women who held 3 young men in chains for 10 years and impregnated them. It was 3 men - and that is what is on the news now. But this somehow makes it man-bashing to state that men are far more often to do these things than women are?

Statistics and facts are now called 'man-bashing'. lol. wtf.

and one doesn't have to be a psychic to tell, by language, that someone is very upset and near to tears with it. I just can't figure out why this would do that to you, but whatever, lol. wtf.

[Common Sense Party]

251. You really should not be commenting in this thread, as it is NOT about politics.

This is a POLITICAL discussion board.

[99Forever]

253. Ahhh... isn't that special?

... I picked up a stalker! Ain't he cute?

[Common Sense Party]

254. Or did you have a political point to make?

[99Forever]

257. Can you say Ignored?

I know you can.

[Common Sense Party]

271. The universe is entropy. Can you say 'entropy,' boys and girls?

Nice try.

[JTFrog]

300. Can you say locked out of the thread?

I know you can't.

But good riddance anyway.

[dotymed]

196. As a man, I agree.

As an "ex" who was abused (mainly psychologically, that takes longer to heal) by my wife (more common than people think) I know that some women also think they own "their" man.
We also see this in same sex relationships.
I do not know the dynamics but I have witnessed this phenomenon from both sexes.

[davidthegnome]

197. Yes...

I do know some men like that, I suspect that they are more common within a rural, conservative community. This news that has come out recently makes me sick, makes me feel as if I should apologize for sharing a gender with these men who kidnap women, or assault women... I think of groups like the FLDS, or extreme varieties of Mormonism or right-wing Christianity. It is truly despicable. To acknowledge that it is men who are doing these things is not really sexist or male bashing... and I appreciate that you point out that this is a horrifying exaggeration, not something for which all men are guilty.

I have never felt, even in the earliest days of my Catholic upbringing, that I deserved to own a woman, or that I was somehow better than them by virtue of biology, of being born with a penis. I have three sisters, on occasion they have dated men who were truly despicable, that, unfortunately, it was illegal for me to beat with a baseball bat...

Perhaps because there have been so many strong, decent women in my life, I am not as the ultra conservatives who believe a woman's place is in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant... make me a sandwich, etc.

What I, as a straight male would like, what I have long dreamed of, is having a life partner. Someone to share with me both the beauty and the agony of this world, and this life. Someone to rely on, someone with whom, a mutual respect, faith and affection might be possible. In none of my relationships have I ever sought to be dominant, because it is not my way. I'm not the controlling type, in large part because I resent it when people try to control me, any amount of bullying gets my back up real quick.

My gender definitely has issues, and there is nothing wrong with pointing this out, so long as we acknowledge that not all of us are like the ones you're referring to. Men are, generally speaking, more inclined towards violence, more likely to seek to oppress or to dominate. The problem is that we live in a culture that teaches men that this is okay, that to be a man, you must be strong, a good fighter, unemotional, insensitive, you must always be prepared to take what you want by force if necessary. Otherwise you might be referred to as a weakling, or, more commonly, as a pussy or a fag.

Another big part of the problem? There are women who look at the most violent, most angry, most dangerous of men and feel that they are somehow more manly, more sexy than those who are otherwise. This is part of what drives this culture of violence, oppression, and cruelty. I am not laying the blame here on all women, but I think it needs to be acknowledged that women (especially young, pretty women) are more likely to seek out the bad boys, the creeps, the jerks... than they are to look for a man who is intelligent, kind, generous, sensitive.

It is not specifically a male or female problem, it is something that, as human beings sharing this earth, we share.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

221. Bush said we should have an ownership society.

[CarrieLynne]

227. theres also consentual BDSM lifestyle "ownership" of both men and women but....consent is the key...

but I guess thats not exactly the point of the post lol

[lumberjack_jeff]

236. "We all know X who think Y..."

The subject line is a case study in presumptuous stereotyping.

We obviously can't all psychically divine what others think they deserve.

If your intent was to create controversy by smearing half the population by pandering to the other half, then it was successful.

[JackN415]

247. +1 you and I fall into this troll-thread trap. Normally, I would skip stuffs like this. :) n/t

[Rex]

240. I am proud to say that I don't know any man like that.

Or should I say associate with anyone with that mentality. I doubt I could stand to be around them when they opened their huge blowhole to let hot air out.

[Animal Chin]

260. Hate transcends gender

This is really about having power or not having power, and it transcends gender. You could replace the word "men" in your post with "white people" and replace the word "women" with "non-white people," and your post would be just as true.

I think this is really scary because there is still a tendency for some white people to think everything is here for their use, including non-white people. It's not guaranteed that white people see non-white people as equal, autonomous, valued, independent people. There is still a strong thread of bias here in america where white people truly believe their desires should prevail over everyone else's rights.

Also works with Christians, heterosexuals, etc., and in doing so you capture a lot of women who are part of the power-having group and who are guilty of the same attitudes toward the non-power-having group (those still in the "cave man stage&quot .

I think you are correct to point out that this story, which is about violence by these men against these women, can and should be viewed in the context of the disparity in power between men and women, but I think you can also look at an even bigger picture and realize that hate transcends gender.

I don't disagree that some men are still in the "cave man stage", but it would be even more accurate to say "some people are still in the cave man stage."

[SunSeeker]

266. Yes, I do know men like that.

Some are my in-laws. Of course, no one in my inner circle, which would include my husband, is like that. But not everyone is that lucky. I know a professional woman whose husband made her get a "tramp stamp" branding her with his lame logo. Apparently the phenomenon of men branding women is not rare.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-57582946/branded-by-tattoos-a-lesser-known-form-of-domestic-violence/

[marions ghost]

275. They're not all thugs

I've known 3 men--all doctors--who exerted what I would call undue control over their wives. In all three cases, the women wanted to pursue a career in writing or the arts, but this was not considered a proper career for a doctor's wife. All 3 are now divorced. The wives have taken a long time to recover.

Of course this isn't the same as literally imprisoning someone, but it does have elements of psychological abuse and coercion.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

299. Here's an example of a doctor in Houston who has assaulted his wife.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Ex-hand-surgeon-Michael-Brown-released-from-jail-4400176.php

I have seen divorce cases of wealthy and powerful doctors who beat their wives. Usually they file bankruptcy to prevent the wife from getting any assets from the marital estate.

[FreeJoe]

310. We all know Muslims who think that infidels should be shown no mercy

If I read my subject line on a RW board, I wouldn't be surprised. It would bother me to read it for the obvious bigotry it demonstrates. Is the original post on this thread really any different? Or are men so inherently vile that we can comments like this about them?

[tavalon]

319. Just please separate polygamy from polyamory

They really are very different.

[Zorra]

321. ...

[opiate69]

322. Truth ^^

[BainsBane]

325. This was neither

This guy didn't marry or love those women. He tortured them.

[Enrique]

328. we all know possessive women

Jodi Arias is just an exaggeration of that.

(I think this statement is logically ridiculous, in a similar way to the way the OP's is).

[Taverner]

331. Everything is an object - and Paterfamilias never really left us